#linuxcnc Logs
Sep 07 2022
#linuxcnc Calendar
01:05 AM randy: morning
01:14 AM Deejay: moin
01:50 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +vv by tantalum.libera.chat
01:58 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +vvv by tantalum.libera.chat
04:37 AM Tom_L: morning
05:25 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:52 AM Jeratan[m] is now known as Jeratan0001[m]
11:36 AM Rab: CaptHindsight[m], I feel an urge to install 2.9 and Debian from scratch to see if these CH382 cards still work. I'm pleased with my current setup, but I just don't know if it's reproducable. Is this a good (semi-)official way to do 2.9? https://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/index.html
11:38 AM Rab: And what's a good target OS? I have Bullseye right now.
12:36 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
01:23 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
01:30 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
01:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Rab: yes, Bullseye, I could only get the ch382's partially working in 2.8 with Buster
01:36 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
01:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I could see steps being generated in halscope but nine made it out of the ch382
01:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I could also see encoder pulses making it into the ch382 and into halscope but not into the spindle speed gui in Axis
01:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: s/nine/none/
01:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I haven't tried 2.9 on Buster yet
01:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: right now I'm looking into the signal 8 core dump error when spinning an encoder on LPT
01:44 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
02:06 PM roycroft: well this is good news
02:06 PM roycroft: rockler just anounced "american birch" plywood
02:07 PM roycroft: it's a us-made equilvalent of balti-birch - solid hardwood core veneers, high veneer count
02:07 PM roycroft: i'll be interested in seeing what the pricing is like when the hardwood dealers start getting it
02:07 PM roycroft: i can't afford to buy wood at places like rockler or woodcraft
02:09 PM roycroft: oh, it has fewer plies than baltic birch
02:09 PM roycroft: but it might still be decent stuff
02:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I had a chat with a concrete contractor yesterday, he said that there is a concrete shortage coming
02:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we both laughed because it's made just down the street and the geology has not changed
02:12 PM roycroft: all the components are sourced just down the street?
02:12 PM roycroft: there are three primary ingredients to concrete, and as far as i know, they're not usually found together in nature
02:14 PM roycroft: but there are various reasons for supply shortages these days, not the least of which is a lack of labor to process the raw materials
02:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: tons of it, none of the raw materials are in short supply unless you just decide to slow production
02:14 PM roycroft: this is the problem when we have historically low unemployment
02:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: same as oil and lumber
02:18 PM roycroft: if you can make money doing stupid stunts on tik-tok there's not much incentive to drive a rock truck all day long
03:22 PM JT-Shop: odd I got two emails asking what the difference between the 7i96 and 7i96S...
03:25 PM roycroft: looks like one has an "s" at the end
03:26 PM Rab: Really? I saw an "S".
03:28 PM Rab: JT-Shop, this page specifies Debian non-free--any LinuxCNC-related reason for that vs regular Debian? https://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/debian-11.html
03:29 PM JT-Shop: non-free covers any PC hardware you may have
03:29 PM Rab: Ahh OK
03:45 PM roycroft: that's the thing about debian that bugs me the most
03:45 PM roycroft: i don't mind pointing out software that is not "free"
03:45 PM roycroft: or even segregating it from the "free" stuff
03:46 PM roycroft: but debian makes a huge deal about it and requires extra steps to install the "non-free" stuff
03:46 PM roycroft: bsd/os put code that was not part of the core os in a /usr/contrib hierarchy
03:47 PM roycroft: and by default, /usr/contrib/bin would be in one's path
03:47 PM roycroft: debian could do the same kind of thing - create a /usr/nonfree hierarchy or something
05:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: I lowered the base thread to 25uS and the encoder on LPT 10, 11 error went away :)
05:45 PM JT-Shop: https://gnipsel.com/images/customers/Revere/Whirlpool/
05:45 PM JT-Shop: one of 10 videos came out... I seem to keep getting the start stop stupid button cornfused
06:18 PM andypugh[m]: https://photos.app.goo.gl/FqrfK58dQwx2NLebA
06:18 PM andypugh[m]: Why do they make these things then leave out the final 2% to make them functional?
06:19 PM XXCoder: dunno
06:19 PM XXCoder: design constrants?
06:25 PM andypugh[m]: You see the problem, right?
06:26 PM XXCoder: the top marker arc ends looks like might be too long
06:26 PM XXCoder: should be fixable maybe dunno
06:47 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:47 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:05 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, did you do the plc or the whole table etc?
07:13 PM skunkworks: CaptHindsight[m]: you around?
07:41 PM skunkworks: btw - pci vs pci-e.. I can get a lower base period with pci-e cards..
07:42 PM skunkworks: 22us vs 18us so far
07:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: yes
07:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: was just spinning the encoder with a drill, no error
07:46 PM skunkworks: lol - I think I figured it out. kinda. I am looking for a pci-e that allows for x mode and got a moschip one that says disabled in lspci.. I got it enabled but linuxcnc would error with both ports. come to find out even though linuxcnc errors - it is still working. (but x mode doesn't)
07:47 PM skunkworks: https://pastebin.com/ZqSutbYV
07:47 PM skunkworks: I can try it with a lower base period..
07:48 PM skunkworks: (see if the encoder crashes linuxcnc)
07:48 PM skunkworks: it is weird that 2.8 doesn't do it
07:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I have a couple Moschip
07:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: one PCI and another a PCIe
07:50 PM skunkworks: 15us base so far without it showing a realtime miss.
07:50 PM skunkworks: (pci-e)
07:50 PM skunkworks: with a pci - 20us was pushing it
07:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: signal 8 appears to be a floating point error
07:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: doing more testing tonight
07:56 PM CaptHindsight[m]: tested LCNC 2.8 with preempt_rt and the encoder signals make it to the GUI using a preempt_rt kernel
07:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: depending on LPT card in 2.8 some signals don't make it out the the pins on the connector but I can see them in halscope
07:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: similar for inputs in 2.8
07:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: some signals make it into the LPT card and I can see them in halscope, but don't reach the GUI
07:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe differences in config files between 2.9 and 2.8, have to still check
08:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Rab is going to reinstall 2.8 on Bullseye and test his ch382 card
08:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: When testing the CH382 LPT PCIe card the encoders signals are making it from encoder to BOB and through the CH382 and I can see them in halscope BUT the steps generated do not make it out of the CH382 to the BOB. But CH382 debug is another project.
08:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Jon Elson thinks "must have been asking to run the base thread too fast, and when things changed, it overran the allotted time and caused the RT thread to crash"
08:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it might be semantics but I actually shorted the base thread period and the error went away
08:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I didn't increase the CPU clock speed or change the algorithm used in LCNC to count quadrature
08:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: to make LCNC count faster
08:16 PM skunkworks: weird
08:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but IF lcnc is trying to make sense of counts and it is counting to slowly for a given set of pulses maybe that is what throws the error
08:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I'll have to looking at the counting scheme used
08:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe it can be improved
08:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we were using LPT ports back in the 80's to count slower quadrature encoders in DOS
08:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 2 samples per pulse
08:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: do all you cards show the kernel LPT driver enabled in LSPCI?
08:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: some of ours do and some don't is another issue
09:01 PM skunkworks: CaptHindsight[m]: I only had one that linux didn't see. (disabled)
09:01 PM skunkworks: the rest I could use the linux numbering in linuxcnc
09:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: some are enabled, some are disabled, some are just ? by the kernel
09:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: do you know which chip or card maodel came up disabled?
09:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: s/maodel/model/
09:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I'll start a section on the wiki to keep track of what works
09:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Parallel_Port_Cards feel free to add or edit
09:44 PM Tom_L: add a creation date so ppl can know how outdated it is when that happens
09:45 PM Tom_L: even though a last edited is there
09:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: added a tested date
09:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Tom_L: feel free to add or edit
09:55 PM Tom_L: i have no pp to test on really
10:00 PM skunkworks: CaptHindsight[m]: let me look - moschip 9900 or something like that.
10:04 PM skunkworks: I have a whole stack of them.. Maybe a half a dozen
10:05 PM skunkworks: yes - moschip mcs9900cv-aa
10:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/config/stepconf.html#_spindle_configuration Speed Display Filter Gain needs a better explanation
10:06 PM skunkworks: so - if you find a pci-e tha is 5v and also runs x mode... let me know
10:06 PM skunkworks: https://photos.app.goo.gl/mVtkFKWgmpuBZcey6
10:07 PM skunkworks: you certainly gain some base period with a pci-e card..
10:07 PM skunkworks: atleast with these hp machiens
10:07 PM Tom_L: butchered ballnut maks more sense now :)
10:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: I have a 9900 PCIe as well
10:07 PM skunkworks: Tom_L: need a little tweeking to fit :)
10:08 PM skunkworks: one reason for 3d printer. See if it will fit
10:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: room is room, if it fits there was room
10:09 PM skunkworks: CaptHindsight[m]: It 'works' but linux and linuxcnc doesn't like it - and it doesn't do x mode. Never check to see if it was 5v though
10:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks:5V or not doesn't matter with a good BOB
10:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: tested working BOB's is another category to make a list of
10:10 PM skunkworks: this is how I got it enabled.. https://emc-users.narkive.com/5K2fpCJR/netmos-9805-pci-parallel-port-card-problem-i-o-ports-disabled
10:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: some of the ship Chinese Mach BOB can't handle 5V encoder inputs
10:11 PM skunkworks: CaptHindsight[m]: sure.. but it is nice..
10:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ship/ppo
10:11 PM skunkworks: both the drives and encoders are technically optically isolated.. So bob optional..
10:12 PM * skunkworks still hasn't blown out a printer port..
10:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: some are.some not
10:13 PM skunkworks: the bob's we have are the $5 variety.. the inputs require > 5v to switch
10:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: which motors and drives are you using?
10:13 PM skunkworks: Pittman servos - amc drives.
10:13 PM skunkworks: they have heds encoders on them
10:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: DC brushed?
10:13 PM skunkworks: yes
10:14 PM skunkworks: cute little things.
10:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: step/dir or PWM?
10:14 PM skunkworks: pwm from the printer port.
10:14 PM skunkworks: to the drives.
10:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ah ok
10:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I have a bunch of older brushed servos and drives
10:15 PM skunkworks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWXCAxUzXK0
10:15 PM skunkworks: It is an amc B series drive but take pwm+dir
10:15 PM skunkworks: So they work brushed/brushless
10:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 1KW size or so
10:15 PM skunkworks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWXCAxUzXK0
10:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 20lbs -ish
10:19 PM skunkworks: 9.5 in-oz. cont
10:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I need to make a batch of sincos to incremental boards
10:20 PM skunkworks: 61 in-oz peak
10:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I have a pile of glass scales, mostly sincos 1-5um
10:20 PM skunkworks: Neat!
10:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: vs new Chinese glass scales for <$200
10:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: they are so cheap now
10:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the encoder chips are ~$13 or were
10:21 PM skunkworks: what kind of resolution for the chinese glass scales?
10:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.dropros.com/DRO_PROS_Digital_Readout_Scale.htm 1 - 5um
10:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mine are mostly Heidhain
10:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: heidenhain
10:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but its hard to screw up a glass sclae
10:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mine must have been >$2kea new
10:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: another option is to make a sincos to PCIe card with 3-5 sets of inputs
10:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or sincos to SPI for use with arm64 boards
10:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: let the board count and give hal positions
10:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.asix.com.tw/en/product/Interface/PCIe_Bridge/AX99100
10:56 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.amazon.com/Parallel-Adapter-AX99100-Controller-Express/dp/B08LYR96CN
10:56 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I might be able to hack this card to test a PCIe to SPI bridge
10:57 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
11:06 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
11:12 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
11:16 PM XXCoder: MrSunshine: fix your interne
11:19 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
11:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder:are they on IRC or one of the bridges?
11:20 PM XXCoder: irc
11:20 PM XXCoder: bridged person always has [m] like yours CaptHindsight[m]
11:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: when I'm on matrix there is no [m]
11:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: that I see
11:21 PM XXCoder: yeah its bot join thing. I guess to prevent conflicts
11:21 PM XXCoder: xxcoder[m]: XXCoder heh im on irc and discord at once so this happens
11:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://github.com/Expatria-Technologies/Flexi-HAL
11:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 5,314 In Stock of the STM32F446 at Digikey
11:30 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
11:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/microcontrollers/raspberry-pi-pico.html $4ea
11:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: STM32F446 are ~$8-11ea based on volume
11:32 PM XXCoder: yeah I know of pico. its cool but I have no idea wha to do with those lol
11:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: does the job of an external FPGA like mesa, but a bit slower
11:35 PM XXCoder: interesting. its cheap enough that you can have one each motor too
11:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/46770-driver-firmware-pcb-for-pi-rp2040-pio-i-e-an-easy-to-configure-fpga-like-card has possibly done much of the firmware already
11:37 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
11:38 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +o by ChanServ
11:38 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to -o by ChanServ
11:39 PM CaptHindsight[m]: another option is PCIe card for PC's that has sockets for Rpi PICO's to handle Step/Dir and encoders for 5-axis
11:39 PM XXCoder: capt yeah pretty interneting
11:39 PM XXCoder: you'd want a good connector for that too
11:39 PM XXCoder: *interesting
11:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: dealing with LPT ports again has my interest in these
11:41 PM XXCoder: connector to connect drivers to steppers from card inside pc for example
11:41 PM XXCoder: id love rpi type connector for that board
11:41 PM XXCoder: like cnc hat but even better
11:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: cnc hat?
11:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: have a link?
11:42 PM XXCoder: sec
11:42 PM XXCoder: its fairly limited
11:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ebay.com/itm/322650015725
11:42 PM XXCoder: https://www.pishop.us/product/raspberry-pi-cnc-board/
11:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ah ok
11:43 PM XXCoder: think it as expensive reprap board lol
11:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: there is limited hardware for closed loop steppers
11:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: with LCNC closing the loop
11:44 PM XXCoder: I always wished for all in one solution for lcnc operated cnc
11:44 PM XXCoder: rpi + mesa inside case with display and buttons etc for example
11:44 PM XXCoder: but there is many alteratives
11:45 PM XXCoder: but nobody sells such package. I'd go try create a market and sell if I had funds and ability
11:45 PM MrSunshine_ is now known as MrSunshine
11:45 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +o by ChanServ
11:45 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +b by XXCoder
11:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we need a good arm64 board to build an image for and not the rpi4
11:46 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to -o by ChanServ
11:46 PM XXCoder: i dont really care what board to use as long as there exists image for it like rpi4 has
11:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.nvcnc.net/nvem.html and arm64 board all in one box
11:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or even as 2 boxes, NVEM and arm64 board with display in another
11:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: there are plenty of low cost options for 3-4axis routers
11:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: there is a ML thread about Acorn
11:56 PM XXCoder: if I went into setups biz, id have scaled ranges for budget
11:56 PM XXCoder: from cheap ones using say, color frpa to better ones using good compute board and mesa
11:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: lots of work for little profit
11:59 PM XXCoder: probably, though can have still cheapish but people can be willing to pay for ready package that includes computer, drivers etc, display and controls such as step generator wheel and e-stop