Jul 24 2022
12:46 AM roycroft: i just found my spool of filament not on the rollers again
12:54 AM roycroft: fortunately i wasn't printing air yet, as my print is about 95% complete
12:54 AM roycroft: something told me to go check on it, and i'm so glad i did
12:57 AM roycroft: i need to figure out why it's happening
12:58 AM XXCoder: yeah
12:58 AM roycroft: the spool is very smooth and round
12:58 AM roycroft: the filament seems to be wound neatly
12:58 AM roycroft: unfortunately my webcam that i use to monitor the printer is not working
12:59 AM XXCoder: bearings on roll holder rotate smoothly?
12:59 AM roycroft: yes
12:59 AM roycroft: i am starting to suspect my cat is paying visits to the printer
12:59 AM XXCoder: any chance roll can get angled and hang on sides?
12:59 AM XXCoder: possible
01:00 AM roycroft: i don't think so
01:00 AM roycroft: i have an errand to run tomorrow near the goodwill computer store
01:00 AM roycroft: i think i'll stop by there and get another webcam
01:00 AM XXCoder: yeah even if its pototocam you can see if its on or not
01:01 AM XXCoder: probably turn up audio for that bang or something
01:01 AM XXCoder: i bet pico and some hardware can become roll sensor though lol
01:24 AM XXCoder: roycroft: nice one. he turns bottle stopper into plumb bob. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc2GmiCbgxw
01:54 AM Tom_L: gywilo[m], try moving any linuxcnc listing in the sources list to the top and try again
01:54 AM Tom_L: i found that helped on one installation
01:59 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Repo_list.png
03:31 AM pere: anyone here know russian? Lack of trailing newline in some strings in <URL: https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/linuxcnc/linuxcnc/ru/ > seem to be rejected by gettext.
04:24 AM t4nk_fn: AND STAY OUT!!
04:24 AM XXCoder: lol well those havent talked for 30 days
04:25 AM XXCoder: yep I got kicked out also (alt account)
04:28 AM t4nk_fn: in the old days they'd kick all the time for idling
04:30 AM t4nk_fn: back on ircnet
04:45 AM JT-Cave: moring
04:46 AM XXCoder: coring
04:52 AM JT-Cave: going to try Debian 11.4 now bye\
04:57 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:04 AM Loetmichel_: mornin'
06:04 AM Loetmichel_: or more "good day", its 1 pm here :)
06:46 AM Dean: Hello
07:35 AM t4nk_fn: _unreal_ is probably still looking for the any-key on his laptop?
08:04 AM satiowadahc[m]: Morning
08:05 AM satiowadahc[m]: Does code formatting in IRC walk across the bridge nicely?... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/5daebd4fa604127d19b25b87a4306d376c2ac6c1)
08:05 AM satiowadahc[m]: Or is that just a discord thing?
08:16 AM t4nk_fn: I think it's a discord thing; 'we don't do that here on irc', goes into a paste somewhere
08:45 AM satiowadahc[m]: Thats unfortuanate. Anyone done much work with vismach? Things seem to be working but I don't understand how garbage collection does kill models...
08:46 AM satiowadahc[m]: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gui/vismach.html#_basic_structure_of_a_vismach_script
08:46 AM satiowadahc[m]: IE: part1 is replaced right away
09:18 AM JT-Cave: CaptHindsight[m], I'm not having any luck getting 5.18rt to work on debian 11
09:26 AM Tom_L: JT-Cave, is it the newest one you can find?
09:26 AM JT-Cave: yeah
09:26 AM Tom_L: i found when i installed debian 10 recently i had to get the very latest preempt-rt or it wouldn't work
09:27 AM Tom_L: due to all the other updates since it was released
09:42 AM gywilo[m]: Thanks, tried this but still not working. My repository window looks a bit different. I'm on debian bullseye which might be contributing to my problems? I'm considering trying debian buster with 5.18 kernel
09:45 AM Tom_L: lemme see which one i loaded
09:46 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:46 AM Tom_dev: 4.19.235-1
09:47 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:47 AM Tom_dev: Linux buster 4.19.0-20-rt-amd64 #1 SMP PREEMPT RT Debian 4.19.235-1 (2022-03-17) x86_64 GNU/Linux
09:50 AM JT-Cave: the only kernel debian 11 will boot up on is 5.10, tried 5.15, 5.16, 5.18 and all just end up with a cursor that does nothing
09:50 AM Tom_L: i tried an older one and the same thing happened here so i went with the newest on the list and it seems to work
09:53 AM Tom_L: debian 11 (bullseye) i'm sure is a different story
09:54 AM gywilo[m]: hmmm, I'm a bit confused. When I used kernel 5.10 or earlier, I have a resolution /software GPU problem, so I think I need a later kernel to address this hardware issue
09:55 AM gywilo[m]: this is the kernel your system is using? 4.19?
09:55 AM Tom_L: i'm using ^^ on buster
09:59 AM JT-Cave: on sid I can use 5.18 rt and that resolved my video card not being known
10:00 AM gywilo[m]: what is 'sid'?
10:00 AM Tom_L: a future release
10:00 AM JT-Cave: sid = unstable = future release
10:00 AM Tom_L: it's always the latest
10:01 AM gywilo[m]: gotcha
10:01 AM gywilo[m]: what do you guys suggest I do?
10:01 AM JT-Cave: if your video card is not known with debian 11 go up to sid
10:03 AM gywilo[m]: my video card does not work with 5.10; it does work with 5.18; I'm not sure how debian 11 plays a role with kernel, this is all new to me
10:03 AM Tom_L: you have debian 11 (bullseye) loaded right now?
10:04 AM JT-Cave: I'm not having any luck getting any kernel except 5.10 to work on debian 11
10:04 AM gywilo[m]: correct
10:04 AM Tom_L: JT-Cave, is this for a test pc?
10:05 AM JT-Cave: it's my programming pc and sometimes I test a Mesa card on it
10:06 AM JT-Cave: deb http://deb.debian.org/debian sid main contrib non-free
10:06 AM JT-Cave: deb-src http://deb.debian.org/debian sid main contrib non-free
10:07 AM JT-Cave: sudo nano /etc/apt/sources.list
10:09 AM gywilo[m]: my sources list had 'unstable' instead of 'sid'
10:10 AM JT-Cave: did that work?
10:10 AM JT-Cave: sudo apt update
10:11 AM JT-Cave: sudo apt full-upgrade
10:11 AM JT-Cave: then pick the 5.18 rt kernel and install it
10:12 AM rmu: "upgrading" to sid is not recommended. http://jaqque.sbih.org/kplug/apt-pinning.html
10:13 AM rmu: pinning makes packages from sid available but stable packages take precedence. however you can manually select newer versions e.g. in aptitude with "v"
10:15 AM JT-Cave: too bad that won't work for me
10:17 AM rmu: JT-Cave: pining won't work?
10:17 AM rmu: pinning
10:18 AM gywilo[m]: pick 5.18 rt kernel from synaptic package manager or grub?
10:20 AM JT-Shop2: selecting 5.18 rt bp in debian 11
10:23 AM gywilo[m]: how do I do that? what is 'bp'
10:23 AM rmu: JT-Shop2: you can try editing the kernel cmd line in grub, remove arguments "quiet" and "splash", kernel should tell a bit more then
10:25 AM JT-Shop2: ok, I'll try that
10:25 AM JT-Shop2: bp = backport
10:32 AM JT-Cave: stuck at [drm] amdgpu kernel modesetting enabled.
10:34 AM rmu: any other strange warnings?
10:34 AM JT-Cave: nope
10:34 AM rmu: what CPU is this?
10:35 AM JT-Cave: Ryzen 5 5600X
10:35 AM JT-Cave: unstable works fine
10:36 AM rmu: it should be possible to only install the kernel from unstable (with repo pinning).
10:37 AM rmu: SW versions in sid are usually all over the place and is is difficult/impossible to fix stuff once it goes bad (i.e. revert to previous versions of packages)
10:39 AM JT-Cave: I'll try that in the morning during free time
10:40 AM _unreal_: t4nk_fn, I found the anykey years ago
11:11 AM gywilo[m]: okay, 5.18 rt kernel installed from backports
11:11 AM gywilo[m]: I'm still having issues when trying to install linuxcnc
11:12 AM gywilo[m]: * okay, I now have 5.18 rt, * from backports; thanks
11:14 AM JT-Shop: does linuxcnc show up in backports?
11:15 AM * roycroft should go cut the dandelions before it gets hot
11:15 AM JT-Shop: already hot here
11:15 AM roycroft: it's 20 here right now
11:15 AM roycroft: high of 34 today
11:16 AM roycroft: but then it will get really hot - 38 on tuesday
11:16 AM JT-Shop: 32 here already high 96f
11:16 AM * JT-Shop hears a nap calling his name
11:17 AM * roycroft decides to sort some more membership forms before going out to mow
11:18 AM roycroft: my filament spool behaved itself overnight, so i had 9 boxes finished when i got up this morning
11:19 AM JT-Cave: roycroft, have you been to Soup Nation?
11:20 AM gywilo[m]: yes, I dod see linuxcnc-uspace listed in backports
11:20 AM gywilo[m]: s/dod/do/
11:21 AM JT-Cave: try and install it
11:21 AM roycroft: no, i have not
11:21 AM JT-Cave: I saw it on DDD last night
11:22 AM roycroft: i watched the first episode of the new star trek series last night
11:22 AM JT-Cave: any good?
11:22 AM roycroft: i haven't made up my mind about it yet
11:22 AM gywilo[m]: looks like issue with dependencies
11:22 AM roycroft: i like cadet uhura
11:22 AM * gywilo[m] uploaded an image: (4663KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/jauriarts.org/oqYIySwqTbrFVAHSqlRSPvOh/IMG_20220724_092145.jpg >
11:22 AM roycroft: i'm not sure about spock
11:22 AM roycroft: the doctor is pretty good
11:23 AM roycroft: and captain pike i think i like
11:23 AM roycroft: better than the captain pike from discovery or from tos
11:25 AM JT-Cave: gywilo[m], it might be easier to use sid if you can't install the dependencies with synaptic
11:25 AM * JT-Cave agrees with JT-Shop it's nap time... fresh debian 11 will be done installing by then
11:26 AM gywilo[m]: okay, will take a look at that; thanks JT
11:34 AM * roycroft wondered why there were so many "m" people, and then remembere the mc and mac people
11:43 AM rmu: gywilo[m]: did you take linuxcnc-uspace from sid?
11:43 AM gywilo[m]: I'm not sure. I don't think so?
11:43 AM rmu: "you have held broken packages" that should be investigated
11:44 AM gywilo[m]: not sure how to do this
11:44 AM rmu: is "sudo apt install -f" doing anything?
11:45 AM gywilo[m]: 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 246 not upgraded
11:45 AM gywilo[m]: no
11:46 AM CNCturnDE: Hi all is there a Plan for updating to debian11 as it also got realtime kernel
11:46 AM CNCturnDE: is andypugh here
11:48 AM rmu: gywilo[m]: what does apt-cache showsrc linuxcnc-uspace say?
11:54 AM CNCturnDE: maybe as uspace once started is always the top cache app
11:57 AM rmu: gywilo[m]: your linuxcnc seems to come from "testing" or "unstable", and it need dependencies that are not available in bullseye. basically there are 3 options: 1) build it yourself and 2) upgrade to testing (codename bookworm). bookworm will become the new stable in some time. don't upgrade to sid.
11:58 AM rmu: 3) repo pinning, but i can't recommend that to unexperienced debian users
11:59 AM CNCturnDE: is bookworm debian12
11:59 AM rmu: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/code/building-linuxcnc.html#_building_debian_packages
12:00 PM rmu: CNCturnDE: it will become debian12 when it is released AFAIK
12:01 PM * gywilo[m] uploaded an image: (7239KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/jauriarts.org/sAQDhdkNzwrkbmgmPGYFUqUS/IMG_20220724_100104.jpg >
12:01 PM rmu: bookworm is a safer choice than sid. sid may break any time.
12:02 PM rmu: s/bookworm/testing/
12:02 PM gywilo[m]: what do you think about alternative option; install debian 10/buster with 5.18 kernel
12:03 PM rmu: linuxcnc is not included in debian 10
12:03 PM rmu: what about the iso from linuxcnc.org? hardware not supported?
12:04 PM CNCturnDE: The ISO from linuxcnc.org is on buster so run it on a 4GB USB stick
12:04 PM gywilo[m]: that's where I started, hardware not support
12:04 PM gywilo[m]: s/support/supported/
12:04 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: and then you did what? install bullseye?
12:05 PM gywilo[m]: yes
12:05 PM gywilo[m]: with the original ISO, the GUI would not load
12:05 PM rmu: what did you do then?
12:05 PM rmu: add additional apt sources?
12:06 PM CNCturnDE: is it a AMD64
12:06 PM gywilo[m]: with bullseye, I got GUI, but GPU was being run in software, and my resolution was stuck at 800x600
12:06 PM gywilo[m]: when I upgraded kernel from 5.10 to 5.18, GPU was supported and resolution problem was resolved
12:06 PM CNCturnDE: What Machine did you try as Gui not running
12:07 PM CNCturnDE: use the Buildbot
12:07 PM Tom_L: 95F
12:07 PM rmu: so if CNCturnDE is going to troubleshoot i'm out, talking in two different directions at the same time doesn't work
12:07 PM CNCturnDE: that made me very happy http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/
12:09 PM CNCturnDE: Tom_L 94 here in SW germany
12:09 PM gywilo[m]: I've used instructions from buildbot but have problems
12:10 PM CNCturnDE: what do you try to get working in Linuxcnc
12:11 PM CNCturnDE: as i read Backwards i need to ASK did you remove the linuxcnc as of iso install bevore buildbot install
12:12 PM CNCturnDE: gywilo[m] that step is very importend as i did this this week 2
12:12 PM gywilo[m]: I'm not sure, I don't believe so
12:13 PM CNCturnDE: so do it again open synaptic
12:13 PM rmu: gywilo[m] tries to install linuxcnc-uspace from debian repository, not from buildbot
12:14 PM CNCturnDE: linuxcnc uspace is also from buildbot the newest
12:14 PM rmu: so the question is where does that come from
12:14 PM rmu: buildbot doesn't seem to have packages for bullseye
12:15 PM gywilo[m]: I have synaptic open
12:15 PM CNCturnDE: search linuxcnc
12:16 PM CNCturnDE: rmu i got version 7127 as of today
12:16 PM gywilo[m]: searched linuxcnc, seeing the docs, linuxcnc-uspace, dev, mesaflash
12:17 PM rmu: CNCturnDE: so what?
12:17 PM CNCturnDE: is uspace dbgsym also there
12:17 PM gywilo[m]: no
12:17 PM CNCturnDE: then you got a mixed up
12:18 PM rmu: CNCturnDE: gywilo[m] is on debian 11 (bullseye), no buildbot packages for debian 11 as far as i see
12:18 PM CNCturnDE: rwmove akk kinuxcnc as linuxcnc.uspace the rest shoud go with it completly
12:18 PM CNCturnDE: oh why is he on bullseye
12:19 PM CNCturnDE: the iso is buster
12:19 PM gywilo[m]: can I run buster with kernel 5.18?
12:19 PM gywilo[m]: I need later kernel for my hardware
12:20 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: if you can you can. stay on bullseye and try to answer what you did to enable linuxcnc package source / backports
12:20 PM CNCturnDE: im on Linux cnc-PC 4.19.0-21-rt-amd64 #1 SMP PREEMPT RT Debian 4.19.249-2 (2022-06-30) x86_64 GNU/Linux
12:21 PM CNCturnDE: rmu im off as you are longer debian member
12:22 PM gywilo[m]: to enable backports, I went to /etc/apt/sources and added line item 'deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-backports main
12:22 PM gywilo[m]: * bullseye-backports main'
12:23 PM gywilo[m]: to enable backports, I went to /etc/apt/sources and added line item 'deb http://deb.debian.org/debian/ bullseye-backports main'
12:23 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: nothing with bookworm testing or sid? strange thing is that linuxcnc-uspace is not in bullseye-backports
12:24 PM gywilo[m]: bookwarm no, but sid yes
12:24 PM rmu: should be testing, bookworm, sid or unstable
12:24 PM roguish[m]: rmu: Linuxcnc is just getting started in the debian repositories, so be patient, or go to the buildbot
12:25 PM * gywilo[m] uploaded an image: (7261KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/jauriarts.org/JwZlWRqAxBSgaupDJEsPVivc/IMG_20220724_102449.jpg >
12:26 PM rmu: roguish[m]: executive summary: gywilo[m] is on bullseye because of hardware support, no buildbot packages for bullseye, so he somehow enabled a sid repository and linuxcnc doesn't install from there
12:26 PM rmu: (of course)
12:27 PM rmu: maybe i'm blind but there is no bullseye here http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/dists/
12:28 PM gywilo[m]: (I believe I need kernel later than 5.10 to enable hardware, but might be able to use buster with kernel after 5.10?)
12:28 PM gywilo[m]: I'm also new to all of this, so take what I say lightly
12:28 PM roguish[m]: check over in the linuxcnc-devel channel
12:29 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: the sid repositories are a mistake. replace sid with bookworm, update and upgrade, then you have a chance it will work
12:30 PM rmu: but beware it will update your whole system
12:30 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: easier would be building the package yourself on bullseye
12:33 PM gywilo[m]: seeing this message after reload in synaptic
12:33 PM * gywilo[m] uploaded an image: (5543KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/jauriarts.org/VmgLUyLEQoDrlYPCMGCcgvgX/IMG_20220724_103244.jpg >
12:36 PM gywilo[m]: I did apt update, upgrade is still going
12:36 PM roguish[m]: ok, i may be dumb. what is 'sid'
12:37 PM rmu: sid is codename of the permanently unstable debian non-version
12:37 PM roguish[m]: oh. I think I would avoid that.....
12:38 PM roguish[m]: don't like the bleeding edge.
12:38 PM rmu: more or less the cooling pool for new packages
12:38 PM rmu: beyond the bleeding edge ;)
12:38 PM rmu: new package versions.
12:38 PM roguish[m]: even more so then.............
12:41 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: did you replace sid with testing or bookworm? interrupt the update if you did not.
12:41 PM gywilo[m]: yes, I replaced sid with bookworm
12:41 PM gywilo[m]: its still going, 35% complete
12:43 PM rmu: i don't know how far along debian is with the new version, there may be problems while upgrading. after all bookworm is testing and not finished (stable) yet. but usually testing runs fine.
12:45 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: if this doesn't work out, have a look at building your own packages, its not black magic, and can be done in a cargo cult fashion following along the documentation
12:45 PM gywilo[m]: what documentation would that be? that's not buildbot is it?
12:48 PM rmu: this http://linuxcnc.org/docs/stable/html/code/building-linuxcnc.html#_building_debian_packages
12:48 PM rmu: start at the top
12:49 PM rmu: with "git clone", then install build dependencies and then build debian package
12:50 PM gywilo[m]: okay, thanks, will give that a try if this doesn't work out
12:51 PM gywilo[m]: will I need to do anything differently when back in synaptic?
12:51 PM gywilo[m]: just search linuxcnc and install uspace?
12:51 PM rmu: yes, something like that. or "sudo apt install linuxcnc-uspace"
12:59 PM * gywilo[m] uploaded an image: (7415KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/jauriarts.org/rCkkXEQVwVkGgRyYnjdSBnaV/IMG_20220724_105926.jpg >
01:01 PM Loetmichel_: rmu: am i outing myself as an old fart saying that i still tend to type "apt-get" by default?
01:02 PM rmu: Loetmichel_: maybe, i usually also type apt-get ;)
01:04 PM rmu: also, I never understood the Super Cow Power stuff
01:04 PM Loetmichel_: on that thought: As i recently found my "original" Suse 6.1 CD-set: I am wondering if that would still install on a modern PC :)
01:07 PM gywilo[m]: okay, so I should try building my own package then?
01:08 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: what happened?
01:09 PM gywilo[m]: it looks like the some packages are not able to install, dependencies related
01:09 PM gywilo[m]: see screenshot above
01:11 PM rmu: hmm.
01:12 PM solarwind: I have a 14x40 lathe with a VFD, but its max RPM is 2400 RPM. That's too slow for carbide inserts. I find the surface finish is poor for small diameter parts if the surface speed is slower than what the carbide insert manufacturer recommends
01:12 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: it seems apt didn't figure out the proper sequence when to upgrade which package (which is a hard problem), so you have to help it
01:12 PM solarwind: If my part is with the right surface speed range, I get excellent surface finishes, even on mild steel
01:12 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: sudo apt install -f
01:12 PM solarwind: Is there any harm in upgrading the motor and adjusting the VFD to increase speed limits?
01:13 PM solarwind: That is, would that cause damage to the spindle bearings or anything like that?
01:13 PM solarwind: The fact that it came with a VFD means it's a relatively modern lathe, like < 20 years old
01:13 PM gywilo[m]: 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 298 not upgraded
01:14 PM rmu: gywilo[m]: then repeat with "sudo apt dist-upgrade"
01:14 PM solarwind: gywilo[m] tip: don't use GUI tools for package management, `apt` does everything you need
01:15 PM solarwind: well almost everything. For what it doesn't do, there's `dpkg` and `apt-file`
01:15 PM rmu: and aptitude ;)
01:15 PM solarwind: I think aptitude is no longer recommended
01:15 PM solarwind: it used to be, before apt
01:16 PM rmu: solarwind: i think you mean dselect
01:16 PM solarwind: you might be right
01:18 PM rmu: strange thing is aptitude does things in a different order sometimes than apt
01:19 PM gywilo[m]: yehaw, it looks like linux-uspace is installed!
01:20 PM gywilo[m]: thank you rmu!
01:20 PM gywilo[m]: nice nice nice
01:20 PM gywilo[m]: thank you
01:21 PM rmu: yw. :-)
01:22 PM gywilo[m]: what did we do there to resolve? 'apt install -f' after pointed to bookworm?
01:22 PM gywilo[m]: * what did 'we, * we' do
01:23 PM rmu: apt install -f just fixes a botched package install. upgrades that hang with some dependency problem sometimes "solve" themselves with just restarting the upgrade. sometimes things have to be forced.
01:25 PM gywilo[m]: got it; it worked in this case! thanks again
01:27 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Yes. You could go a few percent higher without issues but any significant increase is likely to result in rapid failure. The system was designed for a 2400rpm max speed. You have to look at things like your chuck as well and what it's rated speed is.
01:29 PM Loetmichel_: not only the chuck. I had a 24kRPM rated spindle that i used for some years. once i needed 30kRPM so i reprogrammed the limits of the VFD... took a couple hours then all three ball bearings failed.
01:35 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Bearing life is not linear vs rpm. Going beyond the max rated runs into issues with grease film breakdown and very rapid failure. Switching the bearings to oil mist lubrication can increase the max rpm allowed but this needs careful engineering.
01:45 PM Loetmichel_: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: indeed, that was the point
01:47 PM solarwind: ZincBoy[CAON][m] I think the headstock bearings are oil lubricated
01:47 PM solarwind: And of course I'd use an appropriate chuck
01:48 PM solarwind: Ok I don't need 30k RPM, I was thinking more like 4,000RPM max
01:49 PM Loetmichel_: solarwind: my point was that bearings have maximum ratings for a reason.
01:50 PM solarwind: Loetmichel_ yes of course
01:50 PM solarwind: It's an ACER E lathe 1440
01:51 PM solarwind: I"ll have to ask them what the bearing specs are
01:51 PM solarwind: The manual provides headstock oil specs
01:53 PM ___used: Please please confirm that is not a linuxcnc driven arm https://nitter.net/xakpc/status/1550224137041371144#m
01:54 PM solarwind: ___used that link isn't loading, but I have the feeling I know what it is lol
01:54 PM ___used: Programming failure ^10th power.
01:54 PM solarwind: Is it a "robotic arm" with some kind of harness at the end and someone attached to it?
01:54 PM ___used: solarwind: Moscow chess tournament, robot arm grabs and breaks 9yo kid's finger
01:55 PM solarwind: Ok I was way off
01:55 PM ___used: No Estop in sight, no force sensor in sight, panicing adults force the pickup fingers open to liberate the howling kid.
01:56 PM ___used: Using the wrong manipulator for the job, 2 parallel motion "fingers" to grab pieces.
01:57 PM ___used: Fail fail fail. One uses a vacuum pickup or elastomeric fingers, force limiting in case someone puts a Cola can or a hand on there, and backoff option on the E-stop (back out to safe plane)
01:57 PM ___used: Why would that link not load? nitter is reliable. Delete the #m at the end perhaps?
01:57 PM solarwind: tried that
01:57 PM ___used: Give me a minute
01:59 PM ___used: https://twitter.com/xakpc/status/1550224137041371144/video/1
02:00 PM ___used: Pretty lucky it did not tear his finger off.
02:00 PM ___used: Also no force limit on downward motion that I can see, that will happily plant the 2 "fingers" in anyone's arm or a phone or whatever.
02:01 PM ___used: 1970s tech to use such an arm for chess imo
02:01 PM ___used: Seeing the link now?
02:06 PM solarwind: That's better
02:06 PM solarwind: why such a rigid arm for moving a chess piece that weighs a few grams lol
02:06 PM roycroft: i am trying to read a usps document about its new api
02:07 PM roycroft: the document was written to describe the full api, as it is to be implemented
02:07 PM roycroft: but what it is doing is greying out features as they are implmemented, and leaving unfinished features in black text
02:07 PM solarwind: Hmm all the new manual lathes seem to top out at ~2,500 RPM too
02:08 PM solarwind: Do only the CNC lathes run at higher speeds?
02:08 PM roycroft: so i guess we'll know when they have finished implementing the new api when the documentation is completely unreadable
02:08 PM solarwind: Or do I need to look for a smaller lathe?
02:08 PM roycroft: you should probably look at small lathes if you need high spindle speeds
02:09 PM roycroft: large lathes need to be go down to <100rpm, and having a really wide speed range is expensive to implement
02:09 PM roycroft: not to mention that high speed bearings that will work with a large chuck would be very expensive
02:12 PM solarwind: I glanced at the small precision matthews lathes. Those also top out at 2,000 RPM. I guess I should be happy that my 14x40 lathe came with a big motor and does 2,400RPM
02:13 PM solarwind: I guess I have to use HSS tools for small diameter parts, like anything under 30mm in diameter
02:14 PM perry_j1987: hows it going guys
02:14 PM solarwind: Huge difference in surface finish though if I can run at the right surface speed with a good carbide insert
02:14 PM solarwind: Maybe a toolpost grinder is the way to go
02:15 PM roycroft: carbide is usually not going to give as good a surface finish as hss, other factors being equal
02:15 PM roycroft: and as you noted, carbide tooling needs a faster sfm rate than hss
02:16 PM roycroft: do your roughing with carbide, then finish with hss
02:16 PM perry_j1987: havnt been in here a while. you deal with those neighbor kid hooligans roycroft?
02:19 PM roycroft: they haven't been around lately
02:19 PM roycroft: well, i see them once in a while, but they're out out very much
02:20 PM roycroft: the last interaction i had with them was on juneteenth, when they called me an n-word lover and told me that when the former president is back in the white house their father is going to "take care" of me
02:21 PM roycroft: things have thankfully been quiet since then
02:23 PM Tom_L: do they fly a confederate flag too?
02:23 PM roycroft: i haven't seen any on my block
02:23 PM JT-Shop: almost got my 15/64-20 brass screw done for the #5
02:24 PM roycroft: i still do not know exactly which house these kids belong to
02:24 PM Tom_L: that might be a tell tale sign
02:25 PM roycroft: i think they might belong to the house where the father put up an american flag near his roof peak, the flag blew back onto the roof and got tangled in the gutter, and has been there ever since, all twisted up
02:25 PM roycroft: and it stays up 24/7, with no light on it at night, and in the rain
02:25 PM XXCoder: respect the flag indeed
02:25 PM roycroft: yeah, honor the flag code
02:26 PM * roycroft is certain that most maga people have never heard of the flag code, or of the word "respect"
02:26 PM roycroft: or even "honor"
02:27 PM XXCoder: our neighbor have colony flag and another one "dont step on me" flag
02:27 PM XXCoder: snake one was above clony flag for pretty long time
02:27 PM roycroft: anyway, it's been fairly quiet this summer since the juneteenth day incident
02:27 PM XXCoder: then they switched em. otherwise its always been there. in rain etc etc
02:27 PM roycroft: hopefully things will remain quiet
02:28 PM roycroft: i've done enough data entry for today
02:28 PM roycroft: it's time to mow the dandelions
02:28 PM XXCoder: dandelions is interesting. every part of it is ediable
02:28 PM XXCoder: you can make salad out of leaves for examplke
02:28 PM * JT-Shop ponders how to get the slitting saw exactly in the center of the screw head...
02:29 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, lathe job?
02:29 PM roycroft: another set of boxes done
02:29 PM Tom_L: just a tiny bit of math
02:29 PM roycroft: i can start another batch before i head out
02:30 PM XXCoder: I would just do paper snag thing on top and bottom
02:30 PM XXCoder: then math fun
02:30 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L, lathe work is done on the screw... cutting the slot in the mill now
02:30 PM Tom_L: ahh
02:30 PM Tom_L: using the dividing head to hold the screw?
02:31 PM JT-Shop: I guess I can touch off to the top of the square 5c holder
02:31 PM JT-Shop: square 5c holder 1.7500 square
02:32 PM JT-Shop: then move down 0.90625" or in that neighborhood Z is not very accurate
02:33 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/RotaryTest3.jpg
02:33 PM Tom_L: just messin there
02:33 PM XXCoder: doble slot hex
02:33 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/RotaryTest1.jpg
02:34 PM XXCoder: uhh
02:34 PM XXCoder: just dont power it on meanwhile ;)
02:34 PM Tom_L: it wasn't powered when i did that
02:34 PM Tom_L: i mounted the stepper afterward
02:35 PM Tom_L: regardless, it doesn't turn that fast
02:35 PM XXCoder: cool :) tool on something that can rotate being left alone just makes me slightly nervious
02:35 PM Tom_L: but yeah..
02:36 PM JT-Shop: not like it's a spindle on a lathe...
02:41 PM JT-Shop: weird the BP knee mill wanted me to log in... somethings screwed up in there
02:41 PM Tom_L: hasn't been on in a while?
02:41 PM XXCoder: linuxcnc controlled? because stock bp knee mill dont really have any computer to login at lol
02:42 PM Tom_L: boss5 would
02:52 PM Tom_L: when i ran the multi spindle lathes, there was one that had a rotating slot cutter that cut the slot in the end of the bar as it was spinning, then another pickoff attachment would grab it and drill the backside
02:53 PM XXCoder: fancy
02:53 PM Tom_L: it also had a roll thread on one station. one of the more complex setups they had
02:53 PM Tom_L: that machine was pretty well dedicated to that part
02:54 PM XXCoder: last job, they have swiss large. it can transfer part between spindles and then just keep cutting it while next part is being cut on first stage
02:54 PM Tom_L: 6 spindle lathe
02:54 PM Tom_L: these were old mechanical lathes
02:54 PM XXCoder: glad I never ran it, looked very complex setup
02:54 PM Tom_L: cams and gears
02:54 PM XXCoder: turret lathe?
02:54 PM Tom_L: new brittan gridley
02:55 PM XXCoder: one that rotates as it cuts stuff. used to make many, many stuff like bolts
02:55 PM Tom_L: i ran 3 6 spindle and 1 8 spindle
02:55 PM Tom_L: yeah we ran thousands in a shift
02:56 PM XXCoder: found picture of one. looks like machine gun
02:56 PM XXCoder: kind on boat
02:56 PM Tom_L: depending on the part, 6 12' bars every 20min to ~hour
02:57 PM XXCoder: https://static.machinetools.com/uploads/2354047/Wickman_2_2.jpg
02:57 PM Tom_L: very similar
02:57 PM Tom_L: some were ww2 era and some were a bit newer
03:01 PM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WH12VtsIVs
03:01 PM Tom_L: the 52 was a bit newer and larger capacity than the 51
03:01 PM Tom_L: the 60 & 61 were the older versions
03:03 PM Tom_L: https://otto-matics.com/machines/7063814-new-britain-model-812
03:03 PM Tom_L: the 812 was the 8 spindle i ran... just bigger with 2 more spindles
03:05 PM JT-Shop: crap the BP won't boot up now...
03:06 PM Tom_L: uh oh
03:06 PM Tom_L: rust drive?
03:12 PM JT-Shop: yep
03:43 PM JT-Shop: copying all the files off the BP now
03:45 PM JT-Shop: it has debian 9.8 on it now, I have 9.13 iso as well as all the 10.x iso file
03:46 PM * JT-Shop doesn't think he will finish the brass 15/64-20 screw today
04:09 PM roycroft: i got all the dandelions cut in the front yard and half the back yard before the sun and heat got to be too much for me to deal with
04:10 PM * roycroft declares that enough progress has been made for the day
04:11 PM roycroft: i am supposed to go see an outdoor theatre production later on today with a friend
04:11 PM roycroft: i may have to call that off on account of heat
04:12 PM JT-Shop: hmm I may be screwed if I need to reinstall QtPyVCP on the BP mill
04:13 PM roycroft: uh oh
04:13 PM roycroft: that doesn't sound good
04:14 PM XXCoder: jt is hard drive stalling? you can kinda get it working by tapping on hd spindle to make it keep moving
04:15 PM XXCoder: once recovered critical nonprofiles off pc that way
04:22 PM _unreal_: ok just got one of my last MAJOR parts milled finally for the new cnc
04:23 PM _unreal_: the Z lead screw interface adapter. that bolts too the timing belt pully. this is the part that holds the threaded rod
04:26 PM JT-Shop: XXCoder, it won't boot up and now I can't get the livecd to boot... maybe a mb issue
04:27 PM JT-Shop: I did copy all the files in my home directory to my NAS
04:27 PM XXCoder: sounds like worse problem
04:28 PM XXCoder: wonder if caps broke under too long unpowered condition? heard of that but nbot exactly common
04:28 PM XXCoder: easy enough to see if any caps went boom
04:30 PM JT-Shop: nothing looks bad on the mb
04:30 PM JT-Shop: going to flash the sd card again and try once or five times again
04:31 PM Tom_L: as a last resort you can try cooling the hdd then reading
04:31 PM XXCoder: yeah
04:32 PM Tom_L: frig for a while then do an image and see what comes of it
04:32 PM _unreal_: OMG.. I feel so much better now that I have that part milled
04:32 PM _unreal_: little clean up and finally
04:32 PM _unreal_: I have more milling jobs but those are finish jobs
04:32 PM Tom_L: a guy i know put his in the freezer for a while
04:33 PM JT-Shop: like I said I copied all my home files to my NAS, now I'm trying to get another drive going
04:34 PM Tom_L: yeah
04:34 PM Tom_L: what was debian 9?
04:34 PM Tom_L: i may have an old iso
04:34 PM JT-Shop: dunno
04:34 PM Tom_L: i keep a few laying around
04:35 PM Tom_L: i have 2.5...2.8 consecutively, debian 7.11
04:36 PM Tom_L: 2.7 was stretch
04:36 PM JT-Shop: had to pull my dos thumb drive out so I didn't flash the wrong thing lol
04:36 PM Tom_L: 9 was stretch
04:36 PM Tom_L: i have the 2.7 iso for that
04:36 PM Tom_L: if you need it
04:37 PM JT-Shop: I'll let you know if and when I get that far :)
04:37 PM Tom_L: was yours 64bit?
04:37 PM Tom_L: this iso is
04:37 PM roycroft: there are reasons to keep the base os somewhat up to date even on an embedded system
04:37 PM JT-Shop: I do have one mb that I could swap out, the other mb only has pci slots and I don't have a 5i25
04:38 PM Tom_L: 4.16.8 kernel patch for something
04:40 PM JT-Shop: I'm installing 9.13 amd64 now I think
04:41 PM Tom_L: also... http://linuxcnc.org/iso/
04:42 PM JT-Shop: hmm don't see a stretch there
04:42 PM Tom_L: nothing for stretch there
04:42 PM Tom_L: i do have one of those though
04:43 PM roycroft: i have these:
04:43 PM roycroft: debian-9.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso
04:43 PM roycroft: debian-9.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso
04:43 PM roycroft: debian-9.7.0-amd64-netinst.iso
04:43 PM roycroft: debian-9.0.0-amd64-netinst.iso
04:43 PM roycroft: debian-9.5.0-amd64-netinst.iso
04:43 PM Tom_L: possibly might have an older debian install in that period but i'd have to look
04:43 PM roycroft: debian-9.7.0-amd64-netinst.iso
04:43 PM roycroft: ack
04:43 PM roycroft: but only once each :)
04:43 PM roycroft: if you need an iso let me know
04:44 PM JT-Shop: I have 9.13 full install non-free
04:44 PM JT-Shop: which seems to be installing on the 80GB drive
04:45 PM JT-Shop: prob build a deb of 2.8
04:46 PM roycroft: if i'm going to archive historical debian distros i should probably archive full distros, not net install images
04:46 PM roycroft: or maybe not archive them at all
04:46 PM _unreal_: I would archive everything
04:46 PM roycroft: it was never really my intent - i just download the netinstall image when i do my first install of a particular version, and use tha ton all my machines
04:47 PM roycroft: if my name were archive.org i might consider that
04:47 PM roycroft: but it's not
04:47 PM roycroft: my "archive" is primarily due to not being bothered to purge stuff as it's no longer needed
04:47 PM roycroft: i blame the low cost of storage for that laziness
04:48 PM XXCoder: roy cant image in say 20 years theres be first qb drives. you could record 24/7 and not even begin to fill drive
04:49 PM roycroft: it's a pretty scary notion
04:50 PM JT-Shop: hmm that 80GB drive might not have been a good choice I can hear it vibrating
04:51 PM XXCoder: 80 gb? must be pretty old
04:53 PM JT-Shop: a few years old I'm sure
04:53 PM JT-Shop: I used to sell drives with emc installed
04:54 PM JT-Shop: I just put a 160GB drive in and trying that one
04:54 PM JT-Shop: I have a bunch of 1TB drives but don't want to use them for the mill
04:54 PM XXCoder: overkill yeah
04:54 PM XXCoder: I used 8 gb ssd for my linuxcnc pc lol
05:01 PM Tom_L: ssd or rust?
05:01 PM Tom_L: 8gb? that's kinda small
05:05 PM XXCoder: tom minium for linuxcnc then was 4 gb lol
05:05 PM XXCoder: paid very little money for that sdd
05:07 PM Tom_L: i have a tiny one sitting here somewhere, not even sure the size
05:10 PM XXCoder: fun :)
05:13 PM JT-Shop: 240GB SSD's are cheap
05:26 PM Tom_L: yep
05:27 PM solarwind: When you use coolant on a mill/lathe, is it expected that it falls on the slide ways and does that pose a problem for slide way lubrication?
05:27 PM solarwind: I know CNC machines have way covers, but manual machines usually don't
05:29 PM roycroft: it is absolutely going to get on the slide ways
05:29 PM roycroft: and that only poses a problem if you're not using the correct way oil
05:30 PM solarwind: Ok so if using regular slide way oil, I don't have to worry about it?
05:34 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: This is why cnc machines have automatic lubrication. Way oil is pumped to all of the surfaces/bearings/guides in a controlled fashion. This is partially to keep the way oil from being washed off by coolant.
05:36 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Manual machines will have guidance on how often to apply the way lube. My favorite was "Shiftly".
05:38 PM roycroft: if you are using proper way oil and applying it properly
05:38 PM * JT-Shop calls it a day
05:38 PM roycroft: hopefully you have a one-shot lube system
05:40 PM XXCoder: one where you just keep tank leveled and it automatically keeps all ways lubed?
05:41 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Many manual machines will have a one-shot pump where you pull a lever or plunger and it sends a dose of oil to the ways.
05:42 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: The automatic versions pretty much are the same thing with a motor added.
05:43 PM roycroft: what zincboy just said :)
05:45 PM Tom_L: samsung 500GB & 250GB ssd same price for another 6 hrs
05:45 PM roycroft: a well-designed one-shot system is able to dose the amount of lube going to each channel so as to ensure that everything that needs to be lubed is properly lubed, but an excessis not applied anywhere
05:45 PM Tom_L: $60
05:45 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I just had to rebuild the oil pump on my mill as it was full of shmoo. The top was way oil but the bottom was this sticky goo. Not sure what the PO put in there but it is working well now.
05:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: uname -a
05:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Linux lcncbull 5.18.0-0.bpo.1-rt-amd64 #1 SMP PREEMPT_RT Debian 5.18.2-1~bpo11+1 (2022-06-14) x86_64 GNU/Linux https://pastebin.pl/view/506c6a61
05:52 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I just tracked down a lingering issue with my spindle control. Some toolholders would not decelerate to a stop but would coast to a stop. The drive was not faulting, no errors or overvoltage. Turns out that I needed to increase the Automatic J (inertia) parameter in the VFD. Now it brings all the holders to a nice quick stop 🙂
05:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: lpt ports are acting up, have to get to the bottom of this, noticed the same issue on the forums for the moschip 9900
06:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://pastebin.pl/view/d94ebf20
06:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: as sudo https://pastebin.pl/view/9c9d2cb1
07:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: so this cards PCI id's need to be added tp the kernel
07:31 PM _unreal_: ugh. updates hell for ubuntu
07:31 PM _unreal_: and this laptop I'm loading is NOT the fastest
07:32 PM _unreal_: god its weird. the computer I used the most a laptop that has fedora loaded on it. I've not used aside from using it as the computer for driving my laser etcher
07:32 PM _unreal_: will be nice to have a linux system back up and running
07:57 PM Dean_: It would of been nice if one of u would of told me how to register
07:57 PM Tom_L: you left before i was back
07:59 PM acer: ya and I was back before I left
07:59 PM acer is now known as _unreal_
08:04 PM refo[m]: I'm trying to find some info on trajectory planner support for non-linear joints. Is there any path blending support? Some forum threads from 2015 say no, but the planner has been reworked since, and 2.9 has apparently been refactored. I've started looking through commit logs on the master branch, but there is a lot of stuff.
08:04 PM refo[m]: * since, and in 2.9, * 2.9 it has apparently
08:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: refo: I think that you are going to either read the source for yourself or ask those that actually wrote it
08:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: refo: ask on the developers mai llist
08:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mail list even
08:10 PM refo[m]: Found it, thank you. Is #linuxcnc-devel piped into this discord or is it something separate?
08:10 PM TurBoss: on discord side is not bridged
08:11 PM XXCoder: yeh need permissions not gotten yet
08:11 PM TurBoss: but on libera.chat yes
08:11 PM XXCoder: tur we only have matrix-irc for dev right?
08:13 PM refo[m]: The code seems pretty readable, I'll try to work through it first
08:13 PM TurBoss: XXCoder: yes but we can take control of room because it was created by the matrix-irc-appservice
08:13 PM TurBoss: *can't
08:13 PM XXCoder: sucks
08:14 PM mrec: does anyone use the XHC pendant with 6 axis?
08:14 PM TurBoss: i need to send the famouse email to support
08:14 PM mrec: I wonder B/C are swapped ... sometimes (the odd thing is sometimes); I'm going to look into the code
08:14 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: refo last I looked the trajectory planner still falls back to the original version when using anything other than linear axis.
08:16 PM refo[m]: If i understand correctly, it means that it will do one line look ahead and will keep the speed down to be able to to stop at the end of next segment, which sucks for interpolated curves that include rotary axes
08:19 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Yes. This is my understanding as well. I would be happy to hear if it is being improved. The other really big limitation in the trajectory planner is that it is only second order. A third order (jerk) or better planner would be really nice for larger machines.
08:19 PM refo[m]: yea, jerk-aware planners do wonders
08:23 PM refo[m]: i'm thinking of hacking it by specifying rotary axes and the handling wrap-around on the CAM side
08:23 PM refo[m]: * rotary axes as linear and the
08:24 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Not sure that will help. I think it falls back for more than three linear axis as well.
08:24 PM _unreal_: good lord
08:24 PM _unreal_: the ESP32 board files for the arduino IDE is HUGE
08:24 PM _unreal_: still downloading the board
08:25 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: It doesn't know how to do blending on more than three axis.
08:25 PM refo[m]: now i'm wishing for direct joint control, i'm pretty sure I can do the math for N-dimensional blending
08:27 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: There was someone working on that on the forums. They had a stand alone planner that fed moves directly and bypassed the internal planning.
08:59 PM roycroft: well that was fun
08:59 PM roycroft: i just went to see a reenactment of "the trouble with tribbles" put on by trek theater
08:59 PM roycroft: it was a outdoor performance
09:00 PM roycroft: and it was pretty funny
09:01 PM XXCoder: nice
09:04 PM roycroft: yeah, i was a bit concerned about how hot is is, but we found a place to sit under a tree, in the shade, and there was a nice breeze
09:05 PM * roycroft is back to squirting out boxes
09:06 PM roycroft: after this batch, all of the american customary ss fasteners that were in the wall storage bins will be in the new boxes
09:06 PM roycroft: and i should be able to get the rest of the metric ss fasteners done in a couple days
09:06 PM roycroft: my grey (zps) spool should arrive on tuesday or wednesday, so i'll be ready to jump on the rest as soon as the ss ones are done
09:13 PM XXCoder: nice
09:33 PM mrec: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: what do you think would be better, to modify the internal G84 tapping cycle to work with a particular axis or just override g84 with a custom function?
09:34 PM mrec: G1 is nice but I'm a bit lazy to calculate the movements all the time
09:34 PM Tom_L: make a subroutine you can call
09:34 PM Tom_L: ?
09:35 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: What Tom_L said.
09:35 PM Tom_L: maybe pass a couple parameters to it? i don't do much with subs but can't you pass parameters?
09:35 PM mrec: ok I'll go that path first thanks for the recommendation.
09:36 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: You can do all the calcs in the sub routine and it will be a lot less work than remapping
09:36 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Yes, you can pass parameters. The sub routines are pretty powerful.
09:36 PM mrec: I thought about remapping g84 to that subroutine actually
09:38 PM Tom_L: i had to help my bud reload the eeprom for one of his mills and part of that was several gcode files set up for the tool changer
09:38 PM Tom_L: it seems pretty common just to do things with gcode
09:38 PM Tom_L: it just made calls to the gcode internally for a tool change
09:47 PM refo[m]: If you by any chance come across that post, please drop me a link. Couldn’t find it using whatever keywords I could think of
09:47 PM refo[m]: If you by any chance come across that post, please drop me a link. Couldn’t find it using whatever keywords I could think of
09:49 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/33459-linuxcnc-s-curve-accelerations
09:51 PM refo[m]: Much appreciated
11:39 PM Rhine_Labs: Friday was a bummer HVAC place ordered wrong size stack ducting and boots. Ughhh!! Will i ever get done!
11:40 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
11:40 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
11:50 PM roycroft: welcome to the world of stuff and stuff happens