#linuxcnc Logs

Jul 16 2022

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:36 AM pere: pcw--home: good point.
01:03 AM Deejay: moin
01:03 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
01:06 AM pere: hi
01:08 AM roycroft: i wonder if they're short staffed because of the covid surge, and are doing double shifts to keep the mail delivered
01:08 AM XXCoder: isn usps master ban overtime?
01:09 AM roycroft: that was under the previous regime
01:10 AM XXCoder: ok
01:10 AM XXCoder: well I finally printed something. I wanted to test new prusaslicer (2.5 alpha)
01:10 AM roycroft: i think louis dejoy has changed his tune, because he knows the president can appoint enough postal commissioners to fire him
01:10 AM XXCoder: it had fuzzy skin, new parameters math, and lightining infill. used all for test
01:11 AM roycroft: i wish i were printing something
01:11 AM roycroft: i was planning on printing another 20 boxes today
01:11 AM roycroft: that's all on hold for a week or so now :(
01:12 AM XXCoder: atomic delivery?
01:12 AM roycroft: no, the parts for my hot end
01:12 AM XXCoder: oh yes forgot. sorry my memory sucks
01:12 AM roycroft: that's ok
01:12 AM roycroft: i still might put the old hot end back on, but the bowden tube would be an issue
01:12 AM roycroft: plus, i'd have to reslice everything
01:13 AM XXCoder: ok
01:13 AM roycroft: so i'll likely just wait for the parts
01:13 AM XXCoder: what I printed is enlarged gameboy cart of pokemon red
01:13 AM roycroft: sounds like fun
01:13 AM XXCoder: mascot of red, that "ancient lizard" is in 3d
01:13 AM XXCoder: so are logo
01:14 AM XXCoder: https://imgur.com/JOrdgBh.png
01:14 AM XXCoder: https://imgur.com/gWV5Or8.png hard to see but fuzzy skin
01:18 AM XXCoder: success :D
01:39 AM XXCoder: roycroft: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/497148713781952554/997754194058551336/IMG_20220715_232150467.jpg?width=890&height=668
04:33 AM JT-Cave: morning
04:34 AM XXCoder: yo
04:59 AM JT-Cave: d/l linuxmint to see if it plays better with the ASUS Tuf B550 Pro
05:01 AM XXCoder: cool. me, I like xfce mint bit better
05:01 AM XXCoder: I always liked xfce
05:01 AM XXCoder: too many desktops have "my way or else"
05:01 AM XXCoder: xfce is "whatever
05:02 AM JT-Cave: last time I tried xfce I didn't like the interface
05:02 AM XXCoder: then change it?
05:02 AM XXCoder: thats why xfce is so nice
05:02 AM silopolis[m]1: Nothing like kde 😎
05:02 AM JT-Cave: I'll have to take another look
05:02 AM XXCoder: you can make xfce look like kde
05:03 AM JT-Cave: kde is close to gnome bloatware IMHO
05:11 AM JT-Cave: dunno if I'd want xfce to look like kde
05:11 AM JT-Cave: maybe ubuntu 8.08
05:11 AM XXCoder: nah me either
05:11 AM XXCoder: I change bunch of things but not everything
05:12 AM JT-Cave: how do you change things
05:15 AM JT-Cave: going to get linuxmint 21 too this morning
05:16 AM XXCoder: which specifically? generally there is settings which you can change everything but theres more direct stuff for specific stuff, like taskbar has right click "panel properies"
05:16 AM XXCoder: where you can add or remove stuff on panel, or even add more panels
05:16 AM JT-Cave: you can do all that in mate as well
05:16 AM TheMightyFozz: (11:10:52) TheMightyFozz: hi folks. my motors are 'clunking and not spinning. the machine is 1200 x 2400mm (motors are on the bench, so not really important. ) I am pretty sure i have the settings for them input correctly from the manual. its a stepper online cl86t. I am struggling with the max velocity i think. should i paste the ini file here?
05:17 AM XXCoder: yeah ldpe mate and xfce is similiar
05:17 AM XXCoder: in options range anyway
05:17 AM TheMightyFozz: i think i just need it explained to me
05:17 AM XXCoder: ldqt (posted old name above) uses QT while xfce use gtk3
05:17 AM XXCoder: dunno on mate
05:17 AM JT-Cave: don't paste anything to the irc use a pastebin
05:18 AM XXCoder: or dpaste if inaccessable to you
05:18 AM JT-Cave: I tried ldqt and it's alpha at the best
05:18 AM XXCoder: ok. well it is fairly recent fork from old ldpe which seem to have died
05:20 AM TheMightyFozz: is there a pastebin that i dont have to sign up for? this machine wont be connected to the interrnet once i set it up
05:20 AM XXCoder: dpaste works fine
05:21 AM XXCoder: didnt know pastebin needs signup now though hm
05:22 AM TheMightyFozz: https://dpaste.org/KEL7G
05:24 AM TheMightyFozz: ignore the z axis . i need a driver for the motor
05:25 AM Tom_L: morning
05:25 AM TheMightyFozz: microstepping is 800 just checked the dipswitches for the 100th time.
05:25 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:25 AM TheMightyFozz: morning
05:27 AM XXCoder: yo
05:28 AM JT-Cave: set dir and step to 10000 and see if that works
05:31 AM TheMightyFozz: ive done that before. not the issue. the issue is max_velocity... ...i cant get them to spin just jog.
05:31 AM Tom_L: paste.debian.net or paste.ubuntu.com
05:31 AM JT-Cave: then lower max vel
05:32 AM TheMightyFozz: also when i type G0 x100 the dro reads that the motors running, but its just frosen
05:32 AM JT-Cave: MAX_VELOCITY = 0.75
05:32 AM JT-Cave: MAX_ACCELERATION = 30.0
05:32 AM JT-Cave: max acc is way high
05:33 AM JT-Cave: that's stepper stall from trying to go to fast
05:33 AM TheMightyFozz: ahh ok what units are these anyway. totally different from pncconf
05:34 AM JT-Cave: which units?
05:34 AM TheMightyFozz: whats a good average accel value for a nema34 ran at 60v. any ideas?
05:35 AM JT-Cave: one that doesn't stall the stepper
05:35 AM TheMightyFozz: i'm thinking i just need ball park figures to start things rollong
05:35 AM JT-Cave: start low
05:35 AM silopolis[m]1: If modern tech fully integrated full featured desktop is considered bloatware... Well, probably, but the very kind of bloat I dig 😉
05:36 AM JT-Cave: I typically see acc to be 10-20 time max vel your at 40
05:36 AM TheMightyFozz: so try it at 3?
05:37 AM JT-Cave: 3 is pretty safe
05:37 AM jpa-: if those are inches per second, i'd say MAX_VELOCITY seems low and MAX_ACCELERATION seems normal
05:37 AM JT-Cave: 7.5 is 10 times max vel
05:37 AM TheMightyFozz: its in mm
05:37 AM silopolis[m]1: If wanted something lightining fast I 'd go for fluxbox or the like
05:38 AM TheMightyFozz: so its 2.45mm = 1in
05:38 AM JT-Cave: I go for openbox for lightning fast
05:38 AM silopolis[m]1: But I have to agree that xfce has made big progress
05:38 AM jpa-: TheMightyFozz: 0.75 mm/s max velocity seems very low
05:38 AM TheMightyFozz: 25.4 sorry
05:38 AM JT-Cave: I've not looke at xfce in a couple of years or more
05:39 AM JT-Cave: T-16:00 until the hens come out
05:39 AM XXCoder: silopolis[m]1: yeah xfce finally updated few years ago
05:40 AM XXCoder: it was HUGE rewrite and much better, from already quite good
05:40 AM JT-Cave: when was the huge rewrite?
05:40 AM jpa-: TheMightyFozz: if your motors are not spinning even at 0.75 mm/s, you may have some electrical issue
05:40 AM XXCoder: forgot exactly, lemme look
05:41 AM XXCoder: uhh'
05:41 AM XXCoder: april 2022 lol
05:41 AM XXCoder: I was thinking of previous rewrite, not april 2022 LOL no wonder it felt like much better
05:42 AM JT-Cave: I need to take another look then
05:42 AM XXCoder: https://news.itsfoss.com/xfce-terminal-1-0-0-release/
05:42 AM XXCoder: ah term nm too tired lol
05:42 AM XXCoder: ok dec 2020
05:43 AM XXCoder: https://www.xfce.org/about/news this is news about that update
05:44 AM XXCoder: xfce dont update very often, but it often doesnt need such
05:44 AM JT-Cave: for sure I've not looked at xfce since 2020
05:44 AM silopolis[m]1: Anyway, I'm finishing setup of my new WS using Kali and KDE and it delivers a darn nice desktop 😍
05:45 AM TheMightyFozz: ok i'll try it at Max velocity 40mm/min and max acceleration set to 0.8mm/s
05:50 AM jpa-: TheMightyFozz: have you measured the phases with multimeter to make sure you have the motor pinout correct?
05:51 AM jpa-: each pair of wires should measure same low resistance
05:51 AM jpa-: you could also try putting step pulses manually by poking wires, to make sure the motors & drivers are working
05:56 AM TheMightyFozz: set the multimeter to 200ohm. the reading is 1.5. wires are blue and red and i have a green and black.... ..i did this whilst its still connected to the switched off machine.. ..if i measure the wrong wires that indicates an open circuit
05:57 AM jpa-: sounds correct
05:58 AM jpa-: you could also try putting step pulses manually by poking wires, to make sure the motors & drivers are working
05:58 AM jpa-: is the STEPSCALE of 32000 correct? i assume that means you have quite high microstep ratio?
05:58 AM JT-Cave: to find stepper coils connect any two wires together and try and spin if it spins free you don't have a coil connected
05:59 AM TheMightyFozz: enable is open circuit by default on these drivers.
05:59 AM JT-Cave: stepper drivers have a disable input normally
05:59 AM TheMightyFozz: no. i set the microstepping switches to 800
05:59 AM JT-Cave: way too high
05:59 AM JT-Cave: 10 is fine
06:01 AM XXCoder: uh isnt microstepping always at powers of 2
06:01 AM XXCoder: \like 16 microsteps or 32
06:01 AM XXCoder: not 800 or 10 neither is power of 2
06:02 AM JT-Cave: gecko are all at 10
06:03 AM XXCoder: interesting
06:03 AM JT-Cave: but yea most are 2 4 8 etc
06:03 AM JT-Cave: what can be cornfusing is some drives list micro steps and step/rev in the chart
06:03 AM TheMightyFozz: PNCconf says Microstep Multiplication factor of 800
06:03 AM TheMightyFozz: on x axis
06:04 AM JT-Cave: why?
06:04 AM XXCoder: think theres terms confusion somewhere
06:04 AM XXCoder: 800 sounds like number for steps per rotation
06:04 AM JT-Cave: pncconf is confusing at best
06:04 AM TheMightyFozz: thought it was better to start low and work higher
06:04 AM XXCoder: fozz 800 is insanely high.
06:05 AM XXCoder: for microstep anyway
06:05 AM TheMightyFozz: Yes i read that of the dipswitch thing
06:05 AM TheMightyFozz: what should it be set to
06:05 AM XXCoder: you'll need to figure where 800 come from
06:05 AM XXCoder: that have to be done first
06:06 AM TheMightyFozz: i put it in. obviously wrong
06:06 AM XXCoder: no, what I meant where did you calcuate it from or whatever
06:06 AM TheMightyFozz: i thought that thats where you put in the microstepping value that you select with the dip switchews
06:06 AM TheMightyFozz: written on the driver case
06:07 AM XXCoder: most, if not all, drivers cannot go to 800
06:07 AM JT-Cave: in what column?
06:07 AM XXCoder: I think pictures of driver labels would help
06:08 AM TheMightyFozz: google stepperonline cl86t
06:08 AM TheMightyFozz: the manual is quite good
06:08 AM XXCoder: this? https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/image/cache/catalog/stepper-driver/Closed-Loop-Stepper-Driver-0-8-2A-24-80VDC-for-Nema-34-Stepper-Motor-550x550.jpg
06:08 AM TheMightyFozz: i selected 800 steps/revolution off on on on
06:08 AM XXCoder: it has 800 on it. pulse/rev. 800 steps per rotation
06:08 AM JT-Cave: link?
06:09 AM TheMightyFozz: yes
06:09 AM XXCoder: you'll need to look at manual to see what microstepping sw1-4 set to on equals to
06:09 AM TheMightyFozz: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjPyoDRov34AhULTMAKHXpqBxUQFnoECAQQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.omc-stepperonline.com%2Fdownload%2FCL86T.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2vduIPXhyL1rCAkv1E8Klf
06:10 AM * JT-Cave never clicks on a google url
06:10 AM TheMightyFozz: all on is 1600
06:10 AM TheMightyFozz: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/closed-loop-stepper-driver-0-8-2a-24-80vdc-for-nema-34-stepper-motor-cl86t
06:10 AM XXCoder: fozz you know the step angle on your steppers?
06:11 AM XXCoder: typical is 1.8 degree, but 0.9 and others do exist
06:11 AM TheMightyFozz: 200 steps per rev
06:11 AM TheMightyFozz: 1.8 deg i think from memory
06:11 AM XXCoder: ah simple division then. 800/200 = 4
06:11 AM XXCoder: your microstepping should be at 4
06:12 AM * JT-Cave goes to clean chicken poop early so lumberjacking can start early
06:22 AM TheMightyFozz: ahh so its multiples of 200
06:22 AM TheMightyFozz: multiples of whatever one revolution is
06:22 AM TheMightyFozz: PNCconf could and should have tool tips.
06:22 AM XXCoder: basically microstep is just divisions of full step
06:22 AM TheMightyFozz: wow all this time. thanks ill test it
06:22 AM XXCoder: ie it doesnt fully go to next full step but rather 1/4 to next step
06:22 AM XXCoder: it does NOT magically create more precision, in least past certain point anyway
06:22 AM TheMightyFozz: brb need to change network cable
06:29 AM JT-Cave: if you think pncconf needs something do a pull request and add it
06:30 AM XXCoder: oh did miss foz comment
06:30 AM XXCoder: guy left and havent returned though
07:04 AM TheMightyFozz: whoop. it scared my breakfast out of me. lol
07:04 AM TheMightyFozz: that wasnt the only issue. last night i drunkenly rewired the step and direction backwards
07:06 AM TheMightyFozz: next question. why wont the motors move when i select tandem y axis. surly both y motors should move together
07:08 AM TheMightyFozz: also in axis the motors are displaying as Joints not the axis
07:08 AM TheMightyFozz: weird. it fixed itself
07:33 AM JT-Cave: linux drivers readme download latest linux kernel for hardware support LOL what a crock
07:38 AM JT-Cave: don't call me Shirley
07:42 AM TheMightyFozz: I am so chuffing happy my motors are working now. I've got a long way to go but i got past aq big milestone today. THANK YOU to those that helped. I'll be sure to help others if i can.
09:28 AM * JT-Cave bucked up both trees in 1:20...
09:37 AM mrec: is anyone using G71 in lathe mode?
09:38 AM JT-Cave: nope
09:38 AM mrec: thanks for implementing it for me only then :-)
09:39 AM mrec: no there are just some issues with it..
09:40 AM JT-Cave: https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/issues
09:40 AM mrec: well no one really reported those issues for years
09:41 AM mrec: I posted it already though.
09:41 AM JT-Cave: maybe they did and it fell off the radar
09:49 AM * JT-Cave needs to find a USB mouse...
09:55 AM JT-Cave: posted on the forum?
09:55 AM JT-Cave: that's not an issue tracker...
11:47 AM CaptHindsight[m]: JT-Cave: is the new MB up and running?
11:48 AM CaptHindsight[m]: new hardware on Debian can be a challenge
11:50 AM JT-Shop2-: CaptainHindsight: yes, running Linuxmint 20.3 Cinnamon Edge... nothing else has NIC drivers for the B550
11:50 AM JT-Shop2- is now known as JT-Shop2
11:50 AM JT-Shop2: next need to get RT kernel
11:51 AM * JT-Shop2 takes 5 with Emerson, Lake and Palmer
11:53 AM Tom_L: lil brain salad surgery!
11:54 AM CaptHindsight[m]: 5.18.0-2-rt-amd64 here on Sid
11:54 AM CaptHindsight[m]: fanfare for the common man is always good after a new install
12:01 PM * JT-Shop doesn't keep up with the funny names
12:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Sid is the only one I remember since it's always the newest/unstable for Debian
12:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: JT-Shop2: to get the driver for your nic in Deb 11 might need https://packages.debian.org/bullseye-backports/linux-image-amd64
12:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.how2shout.com/linux/how-to-install-and-use-backports-in-debian-11-bullseye/
12:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://packages.debian.org/bullseye-backports/kernel/linux-image-5.18.0-0.bpo.1-rt-amd64-unsigned latest RT backport
12:10 PM JT-Shop: is sid debian 11 or 12?
12:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Sid has no number, it's always just the latest versions of evrything
12:12 PM pere: JT-Shop: neither. sid is sid. the stable release is 11 and the coming stable is 12.
12:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: think of it like highest Debian number +1
12:13 PM pere: lsb_release -a do not give a version number in sid.
12:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but yeah debian is usually frustrating on new hardware
12:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: especially with a NIC driver
12:14 PM pere: CaptHindsight[m]: perhaps you are doing it wrong?
12:14 PM pere: CaptHindsight[m]: check out <URL: https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/ >.
12:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: since you can't download the driver since you don't have a working NIC
12:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: so it requires planning or a second PC
12:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: nah, debian installers are usually broken
12:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: pere: new hardware drivers won't be in non-free for an older kernel
12:19 PM JT-Shop: dang stupid cartoon names don't belong in an OS naming scheme
12:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: kind of a tell for the devs mindset
12:23 PM pere: just like grand generalizations is quite telling of the #linuxcnc community mindset.
12:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sweeping generalizations sheesh
12:29 PM JT-Shop: CaptHindsight[m], Linuxmint 20.3 Cinnamon Edge recognized the NIC and it works
12:30 PM JT-Shop: so debian 11 non free didn't have a driver for my NIC
12:31 PM JT-Shop: pere, I tried that and it didn't recognize the NIC
12:37 PM pere: JT-Shop: ack.
01:07 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, sid changes
01:08 PM JT-Shop: what fun to keep up with all the funny cartoon names lol
01:09 PM JT-Shop: looks like the MS391 chain will get cleaned and sharpened in the Oregon chain grinder... shouldn't try to cut rocks
01:10 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L, https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/calling-any-one-from-missouri.73271/page-1572#post-25960909
01:18 PM roycroft: ok, so i am confused again - this seems to happen more and more often these days
01:18 PM roycroft: i have a festool domino machine - for those of you who are not familiar, it cuts mortises in wood
01:18 PM roycroft: it has a rotating cutter, and the spindle is on a pivot, so the machine moves the spindle back and forth to make the slot wide
01:19 PM roycroft: my confusion is this: festool say that the slot width is cutter diamenter + 13mm
01:19 PM roycroft: the m5, m6, m8, and m10 cutters are all the same length
01:19 PM roycroft: but the m4 cutter is 10mm shorter than the rest
01:20 PM roycroft: the m4 slot width is advertised as 17mm wide, which would be cutter diameter + 13mm
01:20 PM roycroft: but it seems to me that with that cutter being shorter, the lateral travel would be less than 13mm, as the end of the cutter is closer to the pivot
01:21 PM roycroft: the machine has no concept of what size cutter is installed
01:21 PM roycroft: am i missing something here?
01:22 PM roycroft: my m4 cutter has not arrived yet, so i cannot measure the slot size, but i am working on a drawing right now where that slot width is critical
01:30 PM JT-Cave: is that different than a Dewald plate joiner?
01:41 PM roycroft: yes, totally different
01:42 PM roycroft: and i have confirmed that it is a pivot action, not a rack and pinion lateral action
01:42 PM roycroft: so it cuts an arc-shaped slot
01:43 PM roycroft: i'm considering cutting some slots in the ends of some 3/4" wide parts, so the width of the slot is pretty important
01:43 PM roycroft: 17mm is very close to 3/4"
01:43 PM roycroft: i guess i'll just have to wait for the cutter to arrive and measure a test slot
02:45 PM roycroft: so revisiting rack and pinion systems for my router, i realised that one drawback of such systems is backlash, which i would not have with a decent ball screw system
02:46 PM roycroft: is backlash compensation much of a problem with linuxcnc?
02:48 PM JT-Shop2: backlash compensation is a hack at the best as it only works one way as soon as you reverse direction you have to "take up" the backlash
02:48 PM JT-Shop2: dual pinion or similar to remove backlash is better
02:49 PM roycroft: yeah, i may have to consider dual pinion
02:49 PM roycroft: i've seen some designs for that that aren't too bulky
02:50 PM roycroft: having 2m+ long ball screws whipping around has always concerned me
02:50 PM JT-Shop2: there is also dual belt systems where the belt sits in another belt
02:50 PM roycroft: so now that it's time to dial in my design it's time to have a rethink on the y axis rails
02:54 PM roycroft: hmm, split pinions would be more compact than dual pinions
02:54 PM roycroft: but probably rather expensive
02:56 PM roycroft: backlash compensation seems like it would be a kludge, and probably slow down machining operations by quite a bit
03:01 PM JT-Shop2: is there any reason to have more fasteners than just the pull screws to hold the front of the drawer on?
03:02 PM JT-Shop2: well it is a bit jerky at direction change
03:02 PM * JT-Shop2 ponders how to fasten the top to the egg drawer...
03:03 PM roycroft: i like to put fastners towards the outside edges, especially when using solid wood for the drawer fronts, to help prevent warping
03:04 PM JT-Shop2: thanks
03:08 PM roycroft: what i do when i'm going to apply fronts to the drawer boxes is drill for the pulls through the fronts
03:08 PM roycroft: attach the fronts to the boxes with screws through those holes to locate them
03:09 PM roycroft: then screw the fronts to the boxes in the corners from the insides, remove the screws in the pull holes, drill through those holes, then install the pulls
03:09 PM roycroft: i don't glue the fronts on
03:09 PM roycroft: and i don't use double-sided tape to position them
03:10 PM roycroft: those systainer trays i made for my cabinets worked out really nicely
03:11 PM roycroft: the fronts were not applied - they were part of the drawer boxes
03:11 PM roycroft: but wider than the boxes
03:11 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Backlash in a r&p system is generally not a concern for a wood router. The main thing to spring load the pinion against the rack so there is pretty much zero clearance. A dual pinion or split pinion is not usually required.
03:11 PM roycroft: so i machined some sliding dovetails to install them
03:11 PM roycroft: thanks
03:12 PM roycroft: a helical vs straight rack/pinion would still be advised, though, i should think
03:13 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Helical is better for sure but you need to deal with side forces on the pinion. This means you need better bearings to support it vs plain deep grove bearings for the straight rack.
03:13 PM roycroft: something like this:
03:14 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/164214458784
03:14 PM * JT-Shop2 needs to figure out how to attach the top to the egg box...
03:15 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Looks good but you can't mount the pinion directly on the motor or gearbox. You need thrust bearings to deal with the side force.
03:15 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Unless the gearbox is designed for it.
03:16 PM roycroft: i haven't sorted how to drive the pinion yet
03:16 PM roycroft: but it would certainly not mount directly on the motor
03:16 PM roycroft: that was another challenge when i was looking at rack and pinion systems earlier
03:17 PM roycroft: most of the designs i was coming up with had the motor mounted horizontally, perpendicular to the y axis rails, and that would consume way too much real estate
03:17 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: A belt reducer is a good way to go. There are planetary gearboxes but they will have more backlash unless $$$$.
03:17 PM roycroft: i need to mount the motors vertically
03:19 PM roycroft: if i mount the linear rails on the top of the y rails, and mount the racks on the sides of the rails, i could mount the motor inside the rails vertically and use a timing belt to drive the pinions
03:19 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: The belt reducer can go in line with the axis so it only takes up the same space as the motor width wise.
03:21 PM roycroft: i have to go install some more card tag holders on my drawers
03:22 PM roycroft: i shall ponder a pinion drive system while doing so, as that is fairly mindless work
03:22 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Good luck with the cheese grade screws or was that you?
03:22 PM roycroft: that was me
03:22 PM roycroft: and thanks
03:22 PM roycroft: they sent about 50% more screws than i need, so i think they know what they were sending
03:23 PM roycroft: er, i mean "screws"
03:23 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Always a bad sign when they send extra fasteners 🙂
03:23 PM roycroft: they sent about 50% more chunks of black metal-like screw-shaped things than i need
03:24 PM pere: <URL: https://people.skolelinux.org/pere/blog/Automatic_LinuxCNC_servo_PID_tuning_.html >
03:24 PM XXCoder: well seems fozz is happy. nice
03:24 PM roycroft: i'm almost half done with them, so it will be all downhill soon
03:25 PM * roycroft might bring his ipad out to the shop so he can watch some rack and pinion videos while installing the tag holders
03:25 PM XXCoder: roy one of interesting stuff is you can print ballscrew nut holder where you can transfer nut to for maintance or whatever
03:25 PM XXCoder: without losing balls
04:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.atlantadrives.com/systems1.htm
04:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if 2 is good then 3 must be better
04:26 PM * JT-Shop does some cleanup in his github repositories
04:26 PM XXCoder: interesting https://youtu.be/czCgWDuHHOY
04:26 PM XXCoder: edm lathe
04:27 PM XXCoder: sort of anyway
04:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: electronic dance music lathe?
04:28 PM XXCoder: lol nah edm electric cutter machine. dunno what proper name is for it
04:29 PM XXCoder: he took account of dirty water (water with metal particles) and keep bearings flushed also apparenrly
04:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: electrical discharge machining lathe
04:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i have a couple EDM's in pieces
04:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I never NEED one
04:30 PM XXCoder: :) though lathe is interesting because you can make hard to make tools
04:30 PM XXCoder: hes making it for specifically that. he want ball hex tool for hand tool but nothing exists
04:31 PM XXCoder: *nothing like that
04:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I might go back and make a micro-EDM
04:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: for micron & sub-micron machining
04:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: what do you think has been holding back hobby EDM?
04:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: fire?
04:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: controls are too complex?
04:34 PM XXCoder: HV probably
04:35 PM XXCoder: isnt edm wire very expensive too?
04:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: nah
04:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I don't see his power supply
04:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: did he use one from another EDM?
04:36 PM XXCoder: if I recall right he shows build in earlier videos
04:36 PM * JT-Shop has deleted 20 repo's time to make chicken crack
04:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.mcmaster.com/edm-wire/
04:39 PM XXCoder: okay, high inital investment but very lengthy
04:40 PM XXCoder: 9600m wire thats 9.6 km long
04:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://edmsuperstore.com/edm-wires/
04:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: as you know McMaster is McPricey
04:41 PM XXCoder: and sometimes McForSureReal
04:42 PM XXCoder: clicked random one, and I dont see length
04:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://us.novotec-edm.com/products/edm-wire
04:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's usually per Kg since the dia varies
04:43 PM XXCoder: ok
04:47 PM XXCoder: build is interesting. he worked very hard to isolate parts
04:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: lathe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6YOLS8k0mE
04:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: head and tailstock are synchronized
04:50 PM XXCoder: lol he blued "stainless steel" parts from aliepress. he knew it wasnt stainless already due to magnetic reaction
04:56 PM JT-Cave: some stainless is magnetic
04:57 PM XXCoder: can you blue stainless steel? I assumed no but...
04:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Krylon blue?
05:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: https://shootingmystery.com/blue-stainless-steel-beginners/
05:05 PM JT-Shop: electricians blue stainless all the time... cause they don't have a clue how to drill a hole in stainless LOL
05:05 PM JT-Shop: somefreakingwhere is 3 parts brushes
05:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hah
05:09 PM Tom_L: just catching up.. JT-Shop that's all firewood?
05:09 PM XXCoder: capt interesting, though I dont know if guy used chemical blue would also blue stainless steel
05:12 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L, yes
05:13 PM JT-Shop: the problem is I knew where the parts brushes were but not where they are now
05:16 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L, well it will be firewood, it's still rounds
05:18 PM Tom_L: should keep ya warm for a while
05:28 PM JT-Shop: should fill up all my firewood storage and then some
05:29 PM * JT-Shop goes back to hunting the parts brushes so he can clean the MS391 chain
05:44 PM * JT-Shop gives up and goes inside for the night
05:59 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/New_Cabinets/31_Systainer_Tray_Detail.jpeg
06:01 PM XXCoder: joinery look good
06:01 PM roycroft: that's actually a very nice way to install overlapping drawer fronts
06:01 PM roycroft: and it's a stopped sliding dovetail, so it's not visible from above
06:02 PM * roycroft gets back to installing the tag holders
06:02 PM roycroft: i was going to get a bunch of them done today, but it looks like i might actually get all of them done today
06:03 PM roycroft: my new strategy is to drill a pilot hole in some scrap ash and try the screw there first before trying it in the drawer front
06:03 PM roycroft: three have broken off in the scrap piece so far
06:03 PM roycroft: none that worked in the scrap piece broke off in the drawer front
06:04 PM roycroft: it's a pain in the butt doing that, but it's easier than digging broken screws out of the drawer fronts
06:04 PM XXCoder: wonder if they had crap "baking"
06:04 PM XXCoder: so only some is hardened enough while some arent
06:04 PM roycroft: i'd bet that it really is pot metal, and the pot was not stirred well after it melted
06:05 PM XXCoder: got idea dunno
06:05 PM XXCoder: try hardening those yourself
06:05 PM XXCoder: see if random lot you bake and harden all succeeds or some fail still
06:05 PM roycroft: i only have a dozen or so to go
06:05 PM XXCoder: ahh ok
06:06 PM roycroft: well they are painted, so if i bake them i'll have to repaint them after
06:06 PM roycroft: my goal now is to finish installing the tag holders, and throw whatever is left in the trash
06:06 PM XXCoder: try half of failed one harden and compare strengths
06:06 PM roycroft: the problem is that i don't know if it's a fail until it fails
06:06 PM roycroft: at which point i have a screw head and an embedded screw
06:07 PM XXCoder: but yeah honestly id just throw em afterwards, not worth it. labels is perment
06:07 PM roycroft: hard to test even if i dig it out and try to harden it
06:07 PM roycroft: the screws are only about 5/16" long
06:07 PM roycroft: and very small
06:07 PM XXCoder: true
06:07 PM roycroft: i just came in to check email, but i think i'll go do the final push and get that job done
06:08 PM XXCoder: maybe good to test if you ever get bunch of em again, just try harden and just try screwing them in, see if quality suddenly improves
06:54 PM wanfinity: Trying to build a CNC wondering if anyone is designing the part and generating g-code with free tools in linux only
06:56 PM XXCoder: cad is fairly easy, you have options
06:56 PM XXCoder: cam bit harder
06:56 PM XXCoder: freecad do have Path workstation for that, but havent tried that
06:56 PM XXCoder: im sure theres more options but havent really tried CAM yet
06:58 PM wanfinity: All roads CNC seem to point to fusion 360 these days . . .
06:59 PM XXCoder: yeah I dont like license on that
06:59 PM wanfinity: and the cloud storage for me. . . I just want to make very simple parts in Linux alone. . .
07:00 PM wanfinity: Do not mind the learning curve if linux has a flexible and reliable solution
07:03 PM Tom_L: https://www.gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/gcode/index.html
07:03 PM Tom_L: https://www.gnipsel.com/files/mill-g-code/
07:03 PM Tom_L: basic
08:01 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/New_Cabinets/32_Tag_Holders_1.jpeg
08:01 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/New_Cabinets/33_Tag_Holders_2.jpeg
08:01 PM roycroft: all the tags are temporary - i'll print nice ones when i get everything organized
08:01 PM XXCoder: very nicely done
08:02 PM roycroft: but yeah
08:02 PM roycroft: those tag holders make all the drawers actually useful
08:02 PM XXCoder: right side is shallow drawers with boxes correct?
08:02 PM roycroft: yes
08:02 PM XXCoder: ok
08:02 PM roycroft: systainer trays
08:02 PM roycroft: there are two systainers per tray
08:02 PM roycroft: hence the label on each side - left is front, right is rear
08:03 PM * roycroft thinks even a young, smart person would not be able to remember what is in that many drawers without labels
08:03 PM * roycroft knows he has zero chance of doing so
08:03 PM XXCoder: nowdays I have goldfish memories
08:04 PM roycroft: i have no mind left
08:04 PM * XXCoder is glad he learned stuff when he could remember shit
08:04 PM roycroft: but i have label machines, spreadsheets, databases, etc.
08:04 PM roycroft: i can compensate
08:04 PM XXCoder: indeed
10:11 PM roycroft: abom is getting another cnc mill today that he doesn't know how to use
10:12 PM XXCoder: geez
10:13 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: If I got stuff like that for free I would take it even if I couldn't use it too 🙂
10:13 PM XXCoder: same lol
10:13 PM roycroft: my shop has no room
10:13 PM roycroft: i probably wouldn't take it unless i knew i could flip it immediately
10:14 PM XXCoder: I'd ask "but I dont have shop, and proper power supply for said shop for it?" and hope rest gets donated too :P since still lot cheaper than cnc mill lol
10:14 PM roycroft: abom is getting cnc training this fall
10:15 PM roycroft: i guess he has the rest of the summer to fill his shop up with new machines before he starts getting trained on them
10:17 PM roycroft: i'll be happy when he finishes moving stuff into his new shop so he can start doing machining videos again
10:17 PM XXCoder: he did some, all with lathe
10:17 PM XXCoder: hear boring and rod
10:17 PM XXCoder: *gear
10:17 PM roycroft: yeah, he does a little bit here and there
10:17 PM roycroft: but mostly it's his shop build
10:17 PM roycroft: it's the same with matt cremona
10:17 PM XXCoder: probably start building third shop before that happens :P
10:18 PM roycroft: he's doing a big remodel on his house, and those videos are entertaining, but i'll be glad when that's done and he gets back to slicing logs and building furniture all the time
10:18 PM roycroft: matt just posted episode 42 or 43 of his remodel project
10:19 PM roycroft: he did build a little cabinet last week, and cut up a log a couple weeks ago, but other than those projects, it's been all remodel for months
10:20 PM roycroft: and now the wood whisperer just moved to missouri, so instead of woodworking videos he's been posting moving videos
10:20 PM XXCoder: other wood shop channel is moving also, he finally posted a make but its been while since then
10:24 PM roycroft: meanwhile, quinn just hangs out in her shop and makes steam engine parts, while everyone else is moving house
10:24 PM XXCoder: myfordboy still making stuff
10:25 PM roycroft: i hope i'm going to be able to start making products soon
10:26 PM roycroft: i still have the cnc router build to do before that, and possible one other shop fixture
10:32 PM XXCoder: cool :)
11:00 PM roycroft: the complications of installing a rack and pinion drive system on my router are coming back to me now
11:01 PM roycroft: i spent a fair amount of time working on rack and pinion before i decided to go to ball screws
11:01 PM roycroft: but i've never been comfortable with the idea of 2m long ball screws
11:02 PM roycroft: i'm afraid with ball screws that long my rapids will have to be more like meanderings
11:02 PM XXCoder: it comes down to diameter vs length
11:02 PM XXCoder: longer, better bump up diameter to ensure no ballscrew whupping
11:02 PM roycroft: yeah, well i can't afford 38mm diameter ball screws :)
11:03 PM XXCoder: for 2m I doubt 38mm is needed, but not certain
11:03 PM roycroft: no, i'm pretty sure not
11:03 PM roycroft: but 12mm is right out
11:03 PM roycroft: 18mm is probably right out
11:03 PM roycroft: 22mm or so might be about the right size
11:03 PM XXCoder: you will always cut wood right?
11:03 PM roycroft: still too expensive
11:04 PM roycroft: yes, although i may want to be able to do some non-ferrous metals upon occasion
11:04 PM roycroft: but the plan is to just cut wood, mostly sheet goods
11:04 PM XXCoder: if its only wood you could do double belt system. quite cheap even if you use 2 inch wide belts for that
11:05 PM XXCoder: but its likely can move when milling alum for example so its out
11:05 PM roycroft: i think i'm going to spend a fair amount more time working on a rack and pinion system
11:06 PM roycroft: if i determine in the end that it's not really feasible i'll look at maybe a belt drive system
11:06 PM roycroft: i don't want to have to deal with belts if i can help it, though
11:06 PM roycroft: they are somewhat fragile, and they stretch over time
11:06 PM XXCoder: i dont know how well rick and pinion system works, theres interesting antibacklash capt linked to but yeah
11:08 PM roycroft: i know of four mechanisms to minimize/eliminate backlash with a rack and pinion system
11:08 PM Tom_L: or something like that bell everman system
11:08 PM roycroft: 1. hi precision gears
11:08 PM roycroft: 2. split pinion
11:08 PM roycroft: 3. dual pinion
11:08 PM roycroft: 4. spring tensioner
11:09 PM * roycroft is not familiar with a bell everman system
11:09 PM Tom_L: https://www.bell-everman.com/products/linear-positioning/servobelt-linear-sbl#video
11:09 PM roycroft: oh, wait
11:09 PM roycroft: i am
11:09 PM roycroft: i did not recognize the name, but i do recognize the technology
11:10 PM XXCoder: thats fancy version of double belt system I was thinking about
11:10 PM roycroft: that would actually work very nicely for me
11:10 PM roycroft: as one of my criteria is that the drive motors point down, perpendicular to the bed of the router
11:10 PM roycroft: and that can be easily done with a drive system like that
11:11 PM roycroft: it looks really expensive though
11:11 PM Tom_L: fake one
11:11 PM roycroft: i cannot spend my entire $5k budget on one component
11:11 PM Tom_L: roll your own
11:11 PM Tom_L: eliminated whipping and alot of backlash
11:12 PM Tom_L: or ballscrews turning the nut instead of the screw
11:12 PM XXCoder: interesting. didnt think of that
11:13 PM XXCoder: stops whupping dead since ballscrew isnt rotating at all
11:14 PM Tom_L: sometimes you just gotta look outside the box
11:14 PM XXCoder: I guess it means you gonna make ballscrew nut that has some kind of gearing or something for stepper to move it
11:15 PM Tom_L: belt drive
11:15 PM Tom_L: even if it's 1:1
11:31 PM roycroft: i'd have to see if there are any patents on the bell everman system before considering a shop made version
11:31 PM roycroft: and i'm not sure i want to invest the time researching that
11:32 PM XXCoder: unless you plan to SELL it, you do not have patent concern
11:32 PM roycroft: it's still a patent violation
11:32 PM XXCoder: if I remember it is legal for personal use only
11:32 PM roycroft: no, it's not
11:33 PM roycroft: and while it's unlikely the patent holder would go after someone violating the patent for a one-ff personal use machine, my intent is to use this router in my business
11:33 PM XXCoder: interesting youre right
11:33 PM XXCoder: https://www.iusmentis.com/patents/crashcourse/rights/
11:34 PM XXCoder: "US law is more strict. It forbids anyone from making, using or selling the invention, even when the use is strictly personal. Of course, since patent infringement lawsuits are very expensive, a private person is rarely if ever prosecuted for using the invention in his own home. Such a situation could occur when a private person offers on his website a piece of software that uses someone else's patented technology. The patent holder may feel that the
11:34 PM XXCoder: freely available software threatens his commercial product, and then decide to use the patent to prevent the distribution of the free product."
11:34 PM roycroft: and when i build this router y'all will demand pictures
11:35 PM roycroft: so i would have to post pictures of the belt drive system on my public website
11:35 PM XXCoder: cover it with towel or something ;)
11:35 PM roycroft: so no thanks :)
11:35 PM roycroft: if i did that tom_l would cry
11:35 PM XXCoder: anyway tom idea is also interesting
11:35 PM roycroft: and i don't want to make him cry
11:35 PM XXCoder: Tom_L: is that motion system patented?
11:39 PM roycroft: those cabinets really look a lot different with the tag holders on the drawers
11:39 PM XXCoder: yeah
11:39 PM roycroft: i just looked at a picture from before i had installed them and they look totally different
11:40 PM XXCoder: vaguely reminds me of tags on library catalog drawers
11:40 PM roycroft: yes, they are similar to those
11:40 PM XXCoder: I wonder how many people remember library catalog drawers
11:40 PM * XXCoder is old
11:41 PM roycroft: i wonder how many people today know what a rolodex is
11:41 PM XXCoder: i know of those things but didnt know name of it lol
11:41 PM roycroft: that's because you are just old
11:41 PM roycroft: i am really old :)
11:41 PM XXCoder: lol