#linuxcnc Logs

Jul 08 2022

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:22 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://imgur.com/gallery/HUFqsSu
12:50 AM Deejay: moin
12:52 AM randy: morning
02:27 AM travis_farmer: Good Morning :)
03:26 AM Loetmichel: maaan. New (used) car, new problems... just "fixed" the dash telling me that the engine hood is open all the time... Note to self: merc A-cass has NOT gas struts on the hood... *slight headache*... at least the problem was easy to fix: just reseat the switch into the hood lock. *still rubbing the head though*
03:27 AM travis-farmer is now known as travis_farmer
03:30 AM XXCoder: lol
03:48 AM GTKplusplus[m]: Asking this again since last time it got lost in probe talk.
03:48 AM GTKplusplus[m]: Since adding probe screen to my config my previously working remap of M6 has a strange behavior.
03:48 AM GTKplusplus[m]: It starts running the macro, moves to tool change position, gives me the prompt to change tool.
03:48 AM GTKplusplus[m]: Then it stops execution, loads the macro file instead of the previously loaded one, and won't do anything when pressing start (as if the macro can't be run.) Loading a new file and running it, if the next M6 it encounters is for the currently loaded tool, the macro works (so it goes to toolchange position, then to proving position, then continues)
03:49 AM GTKplusplus[m]: It seems like it's splitting the tool change macros into two? When it has to change currently loaded tool it "crashes" while it works as a tool length measuring macro it the right tool is already loaded
03:49 AM GTKplusplus[m]: Any suggestions for what could cause this? Macro was working before adding probe screen and it should be ignoring the ini edits I made
03:50 AM GTKplusplus[m]: Only thing that comes to mind is that the macro readme says I shouldn't have a [TOOL_CHANGE_POSITION] section in ini and with probe screen I added a [CHANGE_POSITION] section. Which is technically named differently so it shouldn't be causing that
04:39 AM Tom_L: morning
04:42 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:00 AM Tom_L: feelin any better?
05:01 AM XXCoder: hope less throne sitting today?
05:03 AM JT-Cave: yes, almost escaped the zombie strangle hold, going to try to do some cad work today
05:03 AM JT-Cave: no trots since yesterday morning so I think that's over with
05:04 AM JT-Cave: no wonder that shit stops a hornworm dead in it's tracks after one bite
05:04 AM XXCoder: did you acciently eat poison or what
05:05 AM JT-Cave: not poison but bacteria and yes it was an accident
05:06 AM XXCoder: ouch
05:06 AM JT-Cave: Bacillus thuringiensis
05:09 AM JT-Cave: I was spraying the raised bed tomato plants and there was a slight breeze from the south, started at the NE and backed my way to the SE then to the SW and on to the NW, I had to look down to step over the carport rail which is 4-6" off the ground and after I stepped over I was in a cloud of BT
05:09 AM XXCoder: many says its safe, but I guess you got much more than test
05:09 AM JT-Cave: it's completely safe just don't breath it
05:10 AM XXCoder: well in least youre starting to turn around :D
05:10 AM XXCoder: going to bed, 3 am
05:10 AM JT-Cave: night
07:07 AM c101horse[m]: looks like ive got me another lcnc capable pc
07:08 AM c101horse[m]: max jitter 11946 on servo and 12246 on base
07:10 AM c101horse[m]: guess the old soundprocessing pc is still good for something
07:24 AM CloudEvil: :)
07:56 AM JT-Cave: nice
09:29 AM roguish[m]: JT-Cave: still alive today?
09:46 AM c101horse[m]: dang it, starting on the new/spare lcnc machine. trying to put probe basic on this one. first thing i do after installing debian from the linuxcnc site is sudo apt update. sudo: apt: command not found
09:46 AM c101horse[m]: now what
09:49 AM roguish[m]: _discord_181695718124290048[m]: you actually need to install apt
09:49 AM roguish[m]: find synaptic installer, search for apt, install
09:49 AM c101horse[m]: dang it, did i really forget about that?
09:50 AM c101horse[m]: where do i search for that? the interwebs?
09:51 AM roguish[m]: synaptic installer should be in the default distro, under administration stuff
09:52 AM * c101horse[m] uploaded an image: (2608KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/jauriarts.org/XEfnwxXXPquJWlmvJCEYGbDn/20220708_165146.jpg >
10:02 AM t4nk_freenode: give my regards to Henk, Koen ;)
10:06 AM roguish[m]: _discord_181695718124290048[m]: looks like you found apt to installl.................
10:06 AM c101horse[m]: i forgot how to linux. the apt doesnt seem to be working
10:06 AM c101horse[m]: it says its installed tho
10:06 AM roguish[m]: you might have to use sudo apt
10:07 AM roguish[m]: probably
10:07 AM c101horse[m]: Im doing sudo apt update and get sudo apt command not found
10:08 AM Roguish[m]1: don't know then.........
10:08 AM t4nk_freenode: what happened to apt-get?
10:11 AM c101horse[m]: Dunno, im Just following the steps in the probe basic thingy. Well, not the installing lcnc. But after that the forst thing is sudo apt update and it already has a spanner on the works😩
10:12 AM t4nk_freenode: what happens when you type ap and then tab for auto-completion?
10:15 AM GTKplusplus[m]: Ok, this is not just related to my previous macros. Changed to probe screen ones, and it errors out after I click ok on the tool change
10:15 AM GTKplusplus[m]: "Can't change to auto mode"
10:16 AM * c101horse[m] uploaded an image: (1851KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/jauriarts.org/buhJcrclBhdWQEzMpqtKSyYC/20220708_171557.jpg >
10:17 AM t4nk_freenode: look, I don't really know what you're up to, .. and I haven't run a debian based distro in ages anymore, but
10:17 AM t4nk_freenode: it should be sudo apt-get update
10:17 AM t4nk_freenode: instead of apt, I think
10:18 AM t4nk_freenode: apt-get is in the list, see?
10:18 AM c101horse[m]: gad dang it, now it decides to work
10:18 AM t4nk_freenode: sudo apt-get update, apt-get install, etx
10:18 AM t4nk_freenode: etc.
10:21 AM c101horse[m]: makes sense, now that i do this bit
10:21 AM c101horse[m]: `sudo apt install python-pyqt5 python-pyqt5.qtquick python-dbus.mainloop.pyqt5 python-pyqt5.qtopengl python-pyqt5.qsci python-pyqt5.qtmultimedia qml-module-qtquick-controls gstreamer1.0-plugins-bad libqt5multimedia5-plugins pyqt5-dev-tools python-dev python-wheel python-setuptools python-pip git python-pyqtgraph python-pyqt5.qtwebkit
10:21 AM c101horse[m]: `
10:21 AM c101horse[m]: i get unable to locate package on a bunch of stuff
10:22 AM t4nk_freenode: you can use a site like dpaste.com to paste your output into, and show us what you got
10:23 AM roguish[m]: _discord_181695718124290048[m]: ya gotta have the correct repositories listed
10:24 AM t4nk_freenode: but perhaps just be sure to close any graphical apps running apt, and run sudo apt-get update and sudo apt-get upgrade first
10:24 AM c101horse[m]: but how come other people dont have trouble following the guide?
10:24 AM c101horse[m]: https://kcjengr.github.io/probe_basic/quick_start.html
10:25 AM c101horse[m]: im literally following that
10:25 AM t4nk_freenode: just use apt-get, not apt
10:25 AM GTKplusplus[m]: ZincBoy[CA, ON] (@_discord_554508768402997249:jauriarts.org) know anything about this? https://github.com/linuxcnc-probe-screen/probe-screen-ng/issues/71
10:25 AM GTKplusplus[m]: I'm suffering from this and can't figure it out
10:25 AM GTKplusplus[m]: it does it with any m6 remap I decide to use, it's not limited to the psng macro
10:26 AM c101horse[m]: yeah im changing it to that but still not getting a different outcome going fromt apt install to apt-get install
10:26 AM c101horse[m]: or am i just stupid?
10:26 AM t4nk_freenode: yes, I believe so :b
10:27 AM t4nk_freenode: 'sudo apt-get update' should work
10:27 AM t4nk_freenode: 'sudo apt-get upgrade' should work
10:28 AM c101horse[m]: yeah that part works
10:28 AM c101horse[m]: but the installing python part is being fucky
10:28 AM t4nk_freenode: and after that, you can try running sudo apt-get install python-pyqt5 first
10:29 AM t4nk_freenode: see if it will install that package
10:29 AM t4nk_freenode: if it throws an error, use dpaste.com, and paste the output so we can see
10:30 AM t4nk_freenode: or take a screenshot if you like, but that's not really handy
10:30 AM t4nk_freenode: so don't do that ;)
10:32 AM c101horse[m]: `koen@henk:~$ sudo apt-get install python-pyqt5... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/2ff340aa0b15429791bc924f04a94b6a305c201a)
10:32 AM c101horse[m]: thats what i get
10:33 AM t4nk_freenode: does it also throw an error on sudo apt-get install python-dev?
10:34 AM c101horse[m]: lemme try
10:36 AM c101horse[m]: `koen@henk:~$ sudo apt-get install python-dev... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/f88a96b92dcd56d9226eb9ef54ea12c1bb4513af)
10:37 AM FranseFrikandel[: apt-get is debian, apt is ubuntu wrapper that simplifies some things I believe
10:39 AM c101horse[m]: figured that out
10:39 AM c101horse[m]: none of my lcnc installs have gone as smoothly as they show on the youtubes
10:45 AM t4nk_freenode: heh, I'm experiencing some crashes here myself, lol
10:45 AM t4nk_freenode: it's a small miracle that I'm here at all right now :))
11:01 AM c101horse[m]: im starting over
11:01 AM t4nk_freenode: hey, c101horse[m]
11:01 AM t4nk_freenode: you can try auto-complete on those packages too
11:01 AM c101horse[m]: hola
11:01 AM t4nk_freenode: so.. sudo apt-get install python- and then tab
11:01 AM t4nk_freenode: see what it says
11:02 AM c101horse[m]: ive already started over
11:02 AM t4nk_freenode: puedes hablar espagnol conmigo tambien, si tu quieres, no problema
11:03 AM c101horse[m]: what
11:03 AM c101horse[m]: the only spanish i can do is hola
11:03 AM t4nk_freenode: well, starting over is not really gonna help methinks
11:03 AM c101horse[m]: ill try anyway
11:03 AM t4nk_freenode: but in that case, I'm off to solve my own problems ;)
11:04 AM roguish[m]: _discord_181695718124290048[m]: are you doing ubuntu or debian???
11:04 AM c101horse[m]: debian
11:04 AM JT-Shop: roguish[m], did you get a fresh copy of gcode?
11:05 AM roguish[m]: i recommend starting with an iso from teh linuxcnc download
11:05 AM t4nk_freenode: (better try to install pyqt5 through pip or conda, but insisting on following the manual isn't going to help)
11:05 AM roguish[m]: and go from there
11:05 AM c101horse[m]: im doing that
11:05 AM roguish[m]: JT-Shop: not yet. but got the notices
11:05 AM c101horse[m]: i've tried doing the mint dance but that just made me angry drunk
11:05 AM roguish[m]: been fighting tuning problems
11:06 AM JT-Shop: c101horse[m], pyqt5 is in the debian repo sudo apt install python3-pyqt5
11:06 AM * JT-Shop has been fighting zombies
11:08 AM c101horse[m]: i might have been stupid and fighting an older version of debian while trying to follow a turorial for a newer version
11:11 AM c101horse[m]: yup c101horse was stupidly fighting a wrong version of debian
11:11 AM JT-Shop: what version of debian are you using?
11:12 AM c101horse[m]: i was fighting debian 7, needed 10
11:12 AM JT-Shop: yup
11:13 AM c101horse[m]: once again, the problem was between seat and steeringwheel
11:19 AM roguish[m]: JT-Shop: I only see the same version 0.0.5 did you forget to roll the version number??
11:20 AM JT-Shop: no
11:20 AM JT-Shop: too tired from being a zombie for a week
11:21 AM JT-Shop: look at the commits
11:23 AM roguish[m]: no prob
11:53 AM * JT-Shop has managed to work 1 hr, time to lay down
12:08 PM c101horse[m]: well, probe basic seems to be working, but my screen size isnt what its supposed to be and im not seeing half of it
12:09 PM t4nk_freenode: it's in the guide! ;)
12:09 PM c101horse[m]: i know i know, but being the stubborn idiot i am id figure lets try anyway
12:10 PM c101horse[m]: but not seeing half of it also meants i cant shut it down. atleast i dont know how to 🀣
12:10 PM c101horse[m]: nevermind found it
12:28 PM pere: what kid of delay is normal between the pid controller give a command voltage and the voltage taking effect? I seem around 25ms, and wonder if this is normal.
12:43 PM pcw--home: you meant the drive does not react to a voltage command until 25 ms later?
12:44 PM miss0r: 'evening
12:45 PM miss0r: !seen syyl
12:51 PM miss0r: anyone know when syyl stopped comming in here?
12:53 PM Moshkopp[m] is now known as Moshkopp8703[m]
12:58 PM unterhaus: pere, I have seen poorly tuned drives take a long time to respond. Maybe some more feed forward?
12:59 PM unterhaus: I have a client that tried to make a control with an arduino that had horrible response. His solution was to go to steppers, which at least takes his code out of the loop
12:59 PM miss0r: pere: Does this mean you've started to convert that old mazak of yours?
01:02 PM pere: pcw--home: or at least the resolver feedback do not reach the pid controller until 25ms after the control voltage raises.
01:03 PM pere: unterhaus: I take the fact that the command position and the output voltage happen almost instantly that the delay is not in the pid controller. Am I wrong?
01:04 PM pere: miss0r: The old Mazak is converted, minus the spindle controller which seem to be broken or something, and I am now tuning the axis.
01:04 PM miss0r: Excellent! :)
01:04 PM miss0r: well, apart from the spindle controller...
01:05 PM miss0r: What does that spindle controller take? +/-10volts?
01:05 PM pere: but f-error is very high and stay very high due to the feedback reacting very slowly to the control output.
01:05 PM miss0r: pere: This delay of yours... Are you testing it with the motors out of the machine?
01:05 PM pere: miss0r: yeah. but when I give it the control signals and some voltage, it error out with an over current message. :(
01:05 PM miss0r: ahh
01:06 PM pere: miss0r: I am testing everything on the machine.
01:06 PM miss0r: I have a thought on that.
01:06 PM pere: I have only disconnected the old computer and connected to the existing connectors to control it using linuxcnc.
01:06 PM miss0r: maybe, just maybe, you are having some mechanical issues. You should try to repeat this with one of the servos disconnected from the ballscrew
01:07 PM miss0r: *IF* the servo realy needs to excert alot of force to move the ballscrew for some reason, it makes sense that it will have a slow start (Depending on the configuration in the drive itself)
01:08 PM miss0r: or are you having a simular experience with all three axis? (In which case I deem it unlikely)
01:09 PM pere: I have not tested Y for this yet. and Z have its own problems, thanks to gravity. it is very slow going up, and very quick do go down. :)
01:09 PM miss0r: odd
01:10 PM miss0r: let me rephrase that odd into a question: Is it moving accelerating slowly up and reacing the same speed as it is going down, just taking a longer time to get there? or is it just slow alltogether going up?
01:10 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Yet another reason I re-wrote this. I am pretty sure there were issues with the python code not try/catching exceptions so it would break and not recover. I still get weird issues with switching modes but they are handled and do not cause issues. Well, other than needing to switch to the correct mode again.
01:11 PM GTKplusplus[m]: mmh, the problem is that right now it breaks program execution
01:11 PM GTKplusplus[m]: I guess I'll try your version
01:11 PM pere: miss0r: the X axis?
01:11 PM miss0r: pere: the Z
01:11 PM GTKplusplus[m]: and if it doesn't work I'll move to probe basic or something, although it requires a new monitor
01:11 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Correct because the exception is not handled.
01:12 PM pere: miss0r: Z is not reaching the same speed going up as going down. It is like 0.5mm/s going up, and probably around 20cm/s going down.
01:12 PM pere: but ignore Z for now, I have not tried to tune it yet.
01:12 PM miss0r: pere: That almost sounds like the machine should have a counter weight for the Z axis, but for some reason does not anymore
01:12 PM miss0r: alright
01:13 PM pere: miss0r: hm, I believe I read something about a counter weight. will have to investigate.
01:14 PM pere: I did mess with the Z controller potmeters to try to get it to stand still when 0 volt is given. suspect that might have done something bad.
01:14 PM unterhaus: pere, when I wrote controller, I meant whatever drive you are trying to control.
01:14 PM miss0r: If I were you, I would disconnect the X-axis servo motor and see how it acts without the ballscrew connected. You might have a bearing block filled with rust. also possible, however unlikely compared to the bearings, a ceased ballnut
01:14 PM pcw--home: pere: the Mesa resolver interface has less than 250 usec of delay from resolver input change to readable position data
01:15 PM pere: unterhaus: aha. when I write axis controller, I talk about the huge piece of electronics accepting +-10V from the Mesa card, and sending three phase voltage to the motor.
01:16 PM pere: it is from 1986. perhaps 25ms was normal then?
01:16 PM miss0r: no
01:16 PM pcw--home: if you have 25 ms of delay in the feedback loop. its most likely a delay from command to motion in the drive, perhaps a drive tuning/ setup issue
01:17 PM pcw--home: Are the drives running in velocity mode? and if so how do they get their velocity feedback?
01:18 PM pere: pcw--home: what do you mean by velocity mode? the control voltage give speed instructions, as far as I understand it. is that velocity mode?
01:19 PM pere: there are two resolvers/encoders/not sure what it is called, one on the motor fed to the motor controller, and one on the ball screw fed to mesa/linuxcnc.
01:19 PM miss0r: based on other mazatrol based systems, I would have to say that it is a velocity driven system, yes
01:19 PM pere: the ball skrew info is used to calculate position in linuxcnc, and is already tuned to give quite accurate position.
01:20 PM * ZincBoy[CAON][m] uploaded an image: (625KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/jauriarts.org/FwMuWmwcsiuDjZAtOpUNhMzy/IMG_1345.jpg >
01:20 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I just got a new toy so I will be working on the probe system again. Let me know if you run into issues and I will try to help. Toy:
01:20 PM pere: I wrote a python script to measure the speed based on position and compare it to the velocity reported by the mesa interface, to set the RESOLVER_VELOCITY_SCALE values to a more sensible value.
01:22 PM miss0r: pere: Sorry I can't be of more help about this issue. But I might pin a piece of advice to the spindle overcurrent error, if you are interrested.
01:23 PM pere: sure. it is the most fundamental issue with the machine at the moment. the axis controls is a question of tuning, but the spindle might be a hardware failure.
01:23 PM miss0r: pere: The spindle overcurrent error: Does this present as soon as you power up the spindle controller? or does it come when you give it a command to spin?
01:24 PM pere: it show up when I ask it to spin, either forward or reverse. even with command voltage at zero.
01:24 PM GTKplusplus[m]: Nice
01:24 PM miss0r: pere: Excellent.
01:25 PM pere: miss0r: <URL: https://elektrotanya.com/mitsubishi_freqrol_fr-se_ac-spindle-controller_ver-3.00_instruction_sm.zip/download.html#dl > and <URL: http://cncmanual.com/mitsubishi-freqrol-ac-spindle-controller-fr-se-maintenance-manual/ > is the documentation I have found so far.
01:26 PM miss0r: Remove the three phase wires in the controller end and measure such: Phase 1 to 2, 2 to 3 and 1 to 3. All those three readings should be the same low ohmage. Repeat this measurement from each phase to ground. If you get shorts/dissimular measurements, repeat the steps in the spindle motor end with the cable removed (To rule out cable error)
01:26 PM pere: to activate it, I enable spindle set, spindle run, and spindle cw/forward (or ccw/reverse). It immediately enter Invertor I O C.
01:28 PM pere: miss0r: this sound like the procedure explained in the first PDF page 32. Did it, nothing was out of spec.
01:30 PM miss0r: reading documentation, hang on
01:30 PM pere: First we thought we did not understand how to talk to it, then we found the second document and started to believe we did and something physically was wrong. Then I did the measurements and found nothing wrong, so now we are very unsure what is wrong. :)
01:31 PM miss0r: Have you done all the tests on the internal diodes/caps & transistors as listed in the manual on page 32?
01:31 PM pere: miss0r: yes.
01:32 PM miss0r: But I don't see the description I gave anywhere. what I am describing is how to test the windings in the spindle motor itself
01:34 PM pere: miss0r: hm, not sure where I found that description, then. Measures across UVW on the motor, and got around 1 megaohm.
01:34 PM miss0r: you what?!
01:34 PM miss0r: U -> W = 1Mohm ?
01:34 PM miss0r: between the phases to the motor you get that?
01:35 PM pere: yes. apparently according to the documentation that is the expected value.
01:35 PM pere: or perhaps I misread milli and mega?
01:36 PM pere: see page 140 in the same pdf.
01:36 PM miss0r: where exactly did you take this measurement? on the drive with the cable disconnected?
01:36 PM miss0r: or on the cable, disconnected from the drive
01:36 PM pere: on the cables with the cables disconnected from the controller. hard to get to the drive.
01:37 PM pere: page 140 state that the windings should be 1 Mohm.
01:37 PM miss0r: yes. And that measurement makes sense if you short the three wires together and test between those and ground. Then that is correct
01:37 PM pere: Did some acceleration testing on X and Y, and get slightly above 7000 mm/s^2.
01:38 PM pere: at 7-8 V, that is.
01:39 PM pere: Have not dared to do the same with Z, until I got more control over its movement.
01:39 PM pere: the motor is around 10kW, and the controller provide 11kW, if I understand its spec correctly.
01:40 PM miss0r: take a multimeter that does accurate low range resistance tests. And measure the resistance between U & V, then U & W and then lastly V & W. Those three results should be realy simular. And it should be in the 0.2 to 2 ohm range (depending on the power specification & rated voltage of the motor) But most importantly, they should be simular
01:41 PM miss0r: The Mega that is called for in the test, is an apparatus that does resistive measurements at high voltages. This will let you test the insulation to ground. If you test it with 250 or 500 volts, it will be able to arc to ground like what would happen if the spindle motor was powered up bu the spindle controller.
01:42 PM miss0r: if your results from measuring between the motor phases respectively yeilds in the megaohm scale, it is not connected.
01:42 PM pere: miss0r: ok. will power down to test. will have to wait a while until the voltage drops in the capacitators.
01:43 PM miss0r: Safety first.
01:45 PM miss0r: pere: Did you use a proper mega to test the insulation?
01:46 PM pere: nope, just a multimeter.
01:46 PM pere: no idea what a mega is, if it is not a multimeter. :)
01:47 PM miss0r: a mega is a resistive tester that, unlike the multimeter, uses a high voltage to measure resistance
01:47 PM miss0r: most of them can be adjusted to test at 250/500/1000 volts
01:47 PM miss0r: While the multimeter uses anywhere between 3 and 9 volts usualy
01:48 PM miss0r: and since that spindle motor is running at something close to 250 or 500 volts, it makes sense to test at that voltage, since a poor insulation can allow a spark/short to form with the higher voltage but show no result at the 3 or 9 volts you have used to test
01:49 PM miss0r: pere: https://carelabz.com/megger-test-performed/
01:50 PM pere: aha
01:51 PM miss0r: if we get no results from the multimeter test between the phases in a moment, you might consider finding a megger to test the insulation with
01:59 PM pere: After disconnecting the motor wires from the controller, I measured using my multimeter set to 200M ohm, and it reads 1.0. Changin it to 20M, 200k, 20k, 2000 and 200 just showed "out of range".
01:59 PM miss0r: and this measurement is taken where exactly?
02:00 PM pere: at the wires going into the controller. Connections U, V and W on page 7 in the first PDF.
02:01 PM miss0r: putting your propes between wire U and wire V ?
02:01 PM miss0r: for example
02:01 PM pere: yes U-V, U-W and V-W.
02:02 PM pere: all of them show the same value.
02:02 PM miss0r: which is nice to have the same value, only that value is bullsh*t :)
02:02 PM pere: :(
02:02 PM miss0r: Either there is no spindle motor or the cable is disconnected somewhere
02:02 PM miss0r: you are looking for anything between 0.2 and 2 ohms
02:03 PM pere: should the controller still give the error when the motor is disconnected?
02:03 PM miss0r: That 1mohm means that air is the only connection between the wires
02:03 PM pere: oh
02:03 PM miss0r: whith thoes readings I would have to say yes. Because if those readings are correct you might as well leave the cable disconnected - it makes no difference
02:04 PM miss0r: The controller should not be able to tell if those wires are connected or not.
02:04 PM miss0r: Can you do a sanity check on the meter for me? short the two probes and check for a low ohm value in the "200" scale
02:05 PM pere: hm. perhaps you want toi join me in oslo to debug this? and give a talk to nuug.no about linuxcnc while you are here? :)
02:05 PM pere: 200 scale show 0.7
02:05 PM miss0r: hehe. Sadly I am very much not an expert on LinuxCNC. But I do repair machines for a living
02:06 PM miss0r: man... Theres something seriously wrong with either the cable or the motor. or perhaps - is it thinkable that someone at some point disconnected the cable on the spindle end?
02:06 PM pere: heh
02:06 PM pere: anything is possible, the old owner died and I bought it from the widow who knew nothing about it.
02:07 PM miss0r: Indeed. Do you have a digital version of the electrical diagram?
02:07 PM pere: sadly no. only paper.
02:08 PM * miss0r is wondering if for some reason they decided to incorporate a breaker or fuse between the spindle motor and the controller. That would account for what you are seeing if such a device were turned off
02:09 PM pere: checking the wiring book to see if I find something like that.
02:09 PM miss0r: pere: Can you take a photo of the page with the spindle motor on it and send?
02:10 PM pere: probably, if I find something.
02:10 PM pere: so far found the wire pipe info.
02:10 PM miss0r: Its probably on the first few pages of actual wiring
02:11 PM miss0r: And honnestly, I am tempted to go to oslo to have a look :)
02:13 PM miss0r: pere: I just had a brainwave!
02:13 PM pere: miss0r: I have a very fun workshop, and the weather is nice. :)
02:14 PM miss0r: some of those older cnc machines used to have a big contactor/relay to disconnect power at once in case of emergency stop. You might be looking for a relay/contactor that needs to be powered to connect the spindle motor to the controller
02:17 PM pere: miss0r: perhaps <URL: https://pasteboard.co/r42Y0MImPSG2.jpg >?
02:18 PM pere: miss0r: the capacitators get 300-400 V or more, so I believe it is powered... :)
02:18 PM miss0r: Indeed
02:19 PM miss0r: I don't see anything to indicate that there should not be a direct cable going to the motor
02:19 PM pere: I see no fuses between the controller and the motor. seem to be direct wiring.
02:19 PM miss0r: You need to remove the casing around the spindle and have a look at that motor
02:20 PM * miss0r hopes it is actualy there :)
02:20 PM pere: hehe. ok. that might take some hours to get to.
02:20 PM miss0r: :o
02:20 PM miss0r: That sounds a bit off. Do you have a photo of said machine?
02:21 PM pere: <URL: https://yewtu.be/watch?v=9f6HYiclwd8 > is a video of a similar machine.
02:22 PM miss0r: alright. fair enough. Thats a pretty ennoying Z-axis configuration
02:23 PM pere: <URL: https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffab&q=mazak+vcq+15%2F40&iax=images&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.liveauctiongroup.net%2Fi%2F20530%2F19578936_1.jpg%3Fv%3D8D13F51A4E2ABD0 > show lots of pictures. the spindle is in the moving head.
02:23 PM miss0r: I will be here for another 40 minuts or so. maybe a bit more. Get to it :D
02:23 PM pere: I'll start climbing and see what I can discover. :)
02:26 PM miss0r: pere: I'll be near the PC. just write my name so the computer makes a sound ;)
02:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ⚑️
02:38 PM JT-Shop: miss0r,
02:38 PM JT-Shop: sorry couldn't resist
02:38 PM miss0r: :]
02:38 PM miss0r: That'll come back to bite'ya :)
02:39 PM miss0r: I was impressed by the speed I assumed he had done it in though :D
02:39 PM miss0r: Alright. back to work
02:40 PM JT-Shop: maybe for you, I'm up to %5 after being sick all week
02:41 PM pere: miss0r: took the top cover off, and there is definitely a box marked Mitsubishi Electronics that seem to be the spindle motor. There is a cover plate I home will let me into the wiring that I will start on next. The wiring going through the top wiring cabinet seem to be ok, thought.
02:42 PM miss0r: Take a few photos to share with me along the way
02:58 PM pere: miss0r: Behind the cover plate, <URL: https://pasteboard.co/OgDFttBOclap.jpg >.
02:58 PM pere: will try to uncover UVW and measure on this end.
02:59 PM miss0r: pere: Indeed: just carefully cut the zipties on those clear pouches and pry them off.
02:59 PM miss0r: Then repeat the measurement there
03:08 PM pere: a bit strange.
03:09 PM miss0r: how so?
03:09 PM miss0r: now you are getting something reasonable, arent you? :)
03:10 PM pere: first I got some kind of stable measurement between U and V, then it got a lot of different measurement, and then I measured again and seemed to get stable 0.7 ohm on the 200 scale.
03:12 PM miss0r: man you need a better multimeter :)
03:13 PM miss0r: if I recall correctly you got the same measurement when shorting the two probes directly. Which translates to the windings being 0 ohms, which means a direct short.
03:14 PM miss0r: If I were you I'd do a dummy check and disconnect the wires in there as well. (be sure to mark them before taking them apart, so you don't loose whatever CW/CCW direction the controller thinks it has.)
03:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: clean up those conductors and the probe tips and check again
03:14 PM miss0r: and then repeat the measurement on the motor and also the motor end of the cable.
03:14 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: The windings are likely to be in the milliohm range at DC. You won't be able to measure them accurately with a meter like that.
03:14 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Agreed
03:15 PM miss0r: but I am also starting to wonder if theres a short break build in there, that is not part of the circuit diagram. atleast not on the page I saw a photo of.
03:15 PM miss0r: that could be resolved by disconnecting it at the motor end and repeating the measurement
03:17 PM pere: I'll disconnect the wires and remeasure, as well as try to find a different multimeter.
03:18 PM XXCoder: id suggest do one change a time
03:18 PM XXCoder: that way you know what changed
03:19 PM miss0r: Once thing we have established though, pere. Theres definetly something not connected between the motor and the controller. You had an open circuit at the controller end and you have *something* at the motor end.
03:19 PM miss0r: even with a generic chinesium multimeter like that(no offence) :D that is pretty clear
03:20 PM miss0r: before doing anything else, look further in the circuit diagram to see if theres another page detailing something about a breaker or relay inserted between the controller and the motor
03:22 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Very unlikely to have a breaker/fuse/relay between the drive and the motor. If you want to kill a drive that is how to do it. The breaker/disconnect will be on the input side of the drive.
03:23 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Indeed. But some of these older CNC machines had a hardwired safety in form of a relay to do person protection in between the spindle motor and the driver
03:24 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: But assuming theres *some* truth to the multimeter readings; at this point theres no connection between the controller end of the cable and the motor end of the cable. Which somewhat sparks the idea that the cable is not running interrupted from one end to the other
03:27 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: True. My machine has relays on the axis drive outputs but not on the spindle drive. At least for the spindle drive I had, it was called out to not put a disconnect on the output. Very well might be but I would have expected to see something on the schematic that was posted.
03:28 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: The schematic that was posted is just the high level view though. There should be some other pages with detailed diagrams that might have something.
03:28 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Yes. But sometimes theres a seprate page detailing such things - noone would draw it like that today, as it is very misleading :) but I've seen it before. Also; about the disconnect - It very much depends on the controller if it can handle it or not. Most "older" designs will handle it just fine
03:29 PM miss0r: I am suspecting as much
03:29 PM XXCoder: this video is prettty cool https://youtu.be/XasThxf_YGo
03:29 PM pere: miss0r: first tried with a different multimeter, and on scale 2000 (its lowest) it showed 0 ohm between U, V and W both in the cabinet and in the motor panel. Disconnected the wires in the motor panel, and the motor wires show 0 ohm between U, V and W, while the wires going to the cabinet showed no connecto to each other. I guess the motor is bust?
03:29 PM miss0r: pere: That is a bit premature to assume
03:30 PM XXCoder: he shows errors also
03:30 PM miss0r: pere: You need a proper multimeter. A multimeter with 2k ohm as a low setting will likely have a lower resulution than the one you started with
03:30 PM miss0r: and you are looking to measure miliohms. i.e. 0.xxx ohms
03:30 PM pere: perhaps. it got 2000k, 200k, 20k and 2000 as the ohm scales.
03:31 PM pere: but at least there is no short in the cables going to the motor.
03:31 PM miss0r: I think at this point I would say you are looking at a relay somewhere in your electrical cabinet disconnecting the controller from the motor
03:32 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I think he is reading a connection in the cabinet now. So the connection is good to the motor.
03:32 PM miss0r: so. Have a look at the electrical diagram and see if you can't find a more detailed drawing including the spindle motor. If that failes, you will have to physically trace the wires (UVW) from the motor controller through the electrical cabinet and see where they terminate
03:33 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: The way I am reading what he is writing is: The motor measures 0 ohms on that 2k ohm scale, so.. miliohms most likely. And he gets open circuit on the cable going to the cabinet.
03:33 PM pere: the wires I measured is basicly part of the motor, so I doubt there is any relays between the wires I measured and the motor.
03:33 PM miss0r: indeed
03:34 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: " it showed 0 ohm between U, V and W both in the cabinet and in the motor panel."
03:34 PM miss0r: pere: The wires I believe to have a relay "in them" are the ones going from the motor to the controller. Somewhere in the electrical cabinet where the controller is located, there will be a relay.
03:35 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I do believe pere referes to the motor junction box as the cabinet right now
03:35 PM miss0r: pere: Is that not the case?
03:36 PM pere: miss0r: there is a contactor controlling the power to all controllers.
03:37 PM pere: miss0r: nope, the cabinet is the big cupboard behind the machine with all the computers and controllers. the motor panel is the motion junktion box.
03:37 PM miss0r: pere: If I were you, I'd trace the wires (UVW) from the spindle controller through the electrical cabinet to see where they go
03:37 PM pere: the latest picture is the motor panel.
03:37 PM miss0r: okay. Then you lost me a bit :)
03:37 PM miss0r: With the new multimeter: did you measure the disconnected U V W wires at the controller end before disconnecting them in the moter panel?
03:38 PM pere: yes. 0 ohm across all three.
03:38 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: So if you read 0 ohms between U V or W in the main electrical cabinet, you have a connection to the motor and there is no relay.
03:38 PM miss0r: yes. that is the case ZincBoy[CAON][m]
03:38 PM miss0r: well. Then theres no disconnect. :)
03:39 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: True πŸ™‚
03:39 PM pere: then I disconnected in the motor box, and no short between any cables going to the cabinet, and 0 ohm between cables going into the motor.
03:39 PM miss0r: pere: To get a proper idea about the state of the motor windings; you need to get a megger to test the insulation to ground. AND a proper multimeter that can measure miliohms
03:39 PM pere: right. then I got a task to solve there. :)
03:39 PM miss0r: With your measuring equipment as it is, I don't think we can get any further
03:40 PM pere: very good to learn the multimeter I had been using was misleading. I got several, so I can at least get another opinion. :)
03:40 PM miss0r: This is a realy good multimeter for a reasonable price: https://elma.dk/produkter/elma-bm805s-multimeter
03:42 PM miss0r: This is my goto multimeter :) I have one on my bench and one in my travel case: https://elma.dk/produkter/elma-6800-grafisk-multimeter
03:42 PM pere: <URL: https://www.clasohlson.com/se/Multimeter-digital-CALTEK-CM1100/p/Pr323180000 > is the last one I used.
03:43 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Still not going to measure milliohms. Lowest range is 400ohm and at 4000 count you will only get to 0.1 ohm resolution.
03:44 PM miss0r: hah. That is true
03:44 PM pere: miss0r: seb_kuzminsky helped me a lot with the conversion, and hans also came visiting and help out a bit. :)
03:45 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Even your very nice meter only does 0.01ohms πŸ™‚ I would still like one though
03:46 PM pere: guess I will have to let the spindle rest for a while and get back to X, Y and Z pid tuning. :)
03:48 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Something in your calculations does not add up. I have three digits on the ohm scale. i.e. x.xxx on my nice meter :)
03:50 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I was just basing it on a quick skim of the web specs. Might be the accuracy specification? I have a few HP3478A meters I use for this type of thing. 100uohm resolution on a 30ohm scale and 4 wire sensing. They are old but they still work well.
03:50 PM miss0r: but if all else fails I have an old HP 34401A on my bench, if I have to get realy accurate with something. (and yes, I get it calibrated once a year.. because I have a friend that can do it for free - I am not made of money) :D
03:50 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Indeed :]
03:51 PM miss0r: A fellow lost soul, I see.
03:51 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Way to 1 up me πŸ˜› The 34401A is a nice unit indeed.
03:51 PM miss0r: I bought it together with a E3633A psu for 2500DKK
03:52 PM miss0r: so, yeah, I got lucky.
03:52 PM miss0r: pere: Let me know when you get a new multimeter. Alternately I am honnestly considering taking a short trip to oslo to have a look
03:53 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Very nice deal. If I really want to go nuts I have a keithley 236 SMU but I don't normally need that level of accuracy.
03:54 PM miss0r: The only issue is today I started my three week summer holliday. and when it is holliday the wife owns my time. Its better when I am at work, then I own me (selfemployed and all that). :)
03:54 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Now that is one sweet unit :D
03:55 PM pere: miss0r: I am at my workshop both this and next two weekends, after this I get busy with kids.
03:55 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I mean, I would love to own it. but I doubt it would see much use in my hands
03:55 PM miss0r: pere: I think we need to look a bit further into the future then
03:56 PM pere: miss0r: I have suggested to hold a linuxcnc workshop/gather at my workshop, but no-one has bitten on the bait yet. :)
03:56 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Yes, it is a bit of a specialized unit. I got it for free as the 1nA range didn't pass cal anymore. I very seldom need 10fA resolution though...
03:56 PM miss0r: pere: I think you'd be well off to have someone that actualy knows a thing or two about linuxCNC tag along. I've only ever setup linuxCNC once quite a few years ago. I'm not the guy for that job
03:57 PM pere: miss0r: I got seb_kuzminsky answering the hard linuxcnc questions, so that part is kind of covered. but I am learning a lot too. :)
03:57 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: Thats a deal thats hard to turn down :)
03:58 PM miss0r: also: bugger me for wasting the better part of two hours chasing an error caused by unreliable measuring equipment at the other end of the line. I should've checked better first! :]
03:59 PM miss0r: and I don't blame you pere - that one is on me. :)
04:01 PM pere: miss0r: well, I very much appreciate your help, I got a huge step forward today on the spindle, and need to redo the spindle controller measurements to see if some of the power transistors are busted, with a better meter. :)
04:01 PM miss0r: Agreed
04:02 PM pere: would be a lot cheaper to replace transitors than the motor. :)
04:02 PM miss0r: pere: I know it sounds biased, but please get a meter for around 800-1000 norwegian crowns. I've never seen something good and reliable at a much lower price
04:02 PM miss0r: yes absolutly
04:04 PM miss0r: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: I couldn't let it go :D https://elma.dk/Admin/Public/DWSDownload.aspx?File=%2fFIles%2fFiles%2fDocuments%2fecom%2fManuals%2f5706445840229_Multimeter_SE_NO_DK_UK_S.pdf At page 57 it shows the proper resolution
04:05 PM miss0r: Either way, plenty accurate for the toolbox multimeter.
04:07 PM miss0r: anyway, pere. good luck going forward ;) If you need to catch me, write a PM. I check that once in a while. See you around
04:07 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: For sure. Much nicer than my old fluke dmm. That is a really nice unit for the toolbox.
04:10 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: The spindle drive on my mill was dead. In my case it was the control board that had developed a fault and there was no real way to repair it. One of the old style hybrid circuits failed and there are no replacements. I ended up replacing the old drive with a modern VFD. Note that to do this the drive must have an encoder input to connect to the motor encoder. Aliexpress specials are right out.
04:12 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: That being said, getting your drive running is the absolute best option. The VFD replacement is very complex.
04:13 PM pere: miss0r: will see what I can do on the meter side. I had hoped the set I already got was good enough, but then I have never needed to go milliohm before. :)
04:14 PM pere: ZincBoy[CAON][m]: yeah, I hope I do not have to replace it, as I do not really know what kind of encoder/resolver/whatnot is connected to the current motor.
04:22 PM _unreal_: just started milling the last two spacer plates
04:23 PM _unreal_: these are major hold up parts for me
04:23 PM _unreal_: 2 out of 4 to go
04:25 PM _unreal_: ugh... drilling cycle first
04:25 PM _unreal_: man I cant wait to start getting parts hanging FINALLY
04:45 PM _unreal_: that sweet just got my MPG in the mail
04:46 PM _unreal_: This MPG I'm going to use with the planetcnc setup
04:46 PM _unreal_: trying to decide on a pendent design. all inputs are broken out..
04:55 PM MikeM[m]: Quick question. I got the touch plate working on the CNC the other day. Once everything is home, the touch plate is removed. I have a had a couple occasions now that the touch plate made contact with the magnet and interrupted the operation. Is there a setting I can adjust to prevent that from interrupting operations?
04:56 PM _unreal_: just switched to the single flute bit. this #%@#$#$ aluminum gums so bad on the two flute bits
05:38 PM Tom_L: _unreal_, coolant.
05:39 PM _unreal_: not on the little cnc
05:45 PM _unreal_: and tom NO its this aluminm. I cant go slow enough
05:46 PM _unreal_: 2/3 of it I can go .25mm 10mm/min and its still gumming
05:46 PM _unreal_: the rest is fine
05:47 PM _unreal_: I'm 80% done cutting I WILL use it.
05:48 PM _unreal_: regardless this aluminum is F'ING odd
05:48 PM t4nk_freenode: you GO girl!
05:48 PM _unreal_: ITS JUST super soft in some areas
05:48 PM _unreal_: HAY!!! theres no girls here. WE are ladies.....
05:48 PM t4nk_freenode: yes, IT is
05:49 PM t4nk_freenode: yes, WE are
05:50 PM _unreal_: good LORD thats hot. this aluminum does NOT want to cut.
05:50 PM _unreal_: it goot realllllllly hoht when I was cutting it on my band saw as well
07:25 PM ZincBoy[CAON][m]: You need to gate the probe signal with HAL logic in this case. I do this with my probe setup. If you AND the probe signal with a motion.digital-out-XX you will be able to enable the probe with M64 PXX and disable with M65 PXX.
07:36 PM MikeM[m]: Thank you, will take a look at that in a bit.
10:03 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:03 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:41 PM MikeM[m]: I added num_dio=1 to the EMCMOT line. However when I try to use motion.digital-out-0 , I get an error messaging saying the pin does not exist What am I missing?
10:48 PM MikeM[m]: i figured it out
10:49 PM MikeM[m]: It should be motion.digital-out-00