Apr 02 2022
12:07 AM roycroft: but you do have a sense of adventure, don't you?
12:24 AM XXCoder: meh'
01:05 AM Guest95: SAD
01:05 AM Guest95: ASD
01:05 AM XXCoder: hello
01:09 AM Guest95: sorry, I didn't realize visitors were allowed to speak
01:10 AM XXCoder: lol ok. been a while since register only thing was removed
01:10 AM XXCoder: it was during really bad bot spam
01:42 AM Deejay: moin
04:51 AM Tom_L: morning
04:59 AM JT-Cave: morning
07:27 AM Loetmichel: *giggle* just read a nice description in a fantasy book: "To the outsider smithing looks like pounding the stubborn out of a piece of red hot metal until it surrenders into the form you want." :)
07:29 AM t4nk_freenode: yeah, I'm off to the hardware store myself ;)
07:52 AM unterhaus_: if you are going to rate the smells of penetrating oil, acetone and atf should be in the mix
10:22 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:39 AM unterhaus_: I decided to re-orient the ducting for my dust collector so i have to move my contactor. Not amused about that.
10:39 AM Tom_L: it _was_ your idea...
10:49 AM roycroft: i'm pondering whether to work on phase 3 this weekend
10:50 AM roycroft: phase 3 is replacing the flexible hose with metal ducting on the primary run into the middle of my shop, and part of it requires parts that i need to order
10:50 AM roycroft: but i can do part of it with locally-sourced parts
10:51 AM roycroft: phase 4 is replacing the filter bag with a canister filter, which is also something i need to order
11:38 AM _unreal_: so my 3d print worked out good. designed an air intake filter adapter for a mini pump I have. It was a pump for a food saver. BUT I'm going to use it as a positive air blower for the new cnc. I finally did a tiny bit of work on it.
11:39 AM _unreal_: also we have a BIT of a date finally on when I'll get REAL internet back.
11:39 AM _unreal_: looks like its going to be upto 15 more days before the internet is back.
11:39 AM CloudEvil: I want real internet back. It's all gone to shit since about 2014.
11:39 AM _unreal_: so something like 800 homes in my area are with out land line/internet services
11:40 AM _unreal_: there was a "privet" local to those who live in this area report. only ONE home still has there comcast internet because there wire pair was routed in a different conduit.
11:40 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
11:41 AM _unreal_: Other wise EVERYTHING else was taken out by one swipe of a backhoe
11:41 AM _unreal_: its so bad the news is refusing to report about it.
11:41 AM _unreal_: the entire project is to bring fiberoptic to every house
11:41 AM _unreal_: just mind numbing
11:42 AM _unreal_: so until the fiber optic is installed there will be no internet. I guess the issue is that they cant fix the hard wire becuase water got into the run and everything.
11:43 AM _unreal_: and there is no way to identify all of the wire strand pairs with out re-running them.
11:43 AM _unreal_: amazing
11:43 AM _unreal_: so I'm limited to cell phone tethering right now
11:44 AM _unreal_: sigh
11:44 AM _unreal_: As to the big'ER cnc. I'm changing the yx armature setup.
11:45 AM _unreal_: lower stiffer
11:45 AM _unreal_: it will cut down on my total tooling area but at least it will not have a stupid level of flex.
11:46 AM _unreal_: just sucks that I spent a bunch of money for parts to build a much larger machine only to suddenly get shut down.
11:47 AM _unreal_: AGAIN. hoping I do make my big mega play. if they legalize weed and it hits 100+ $ per share. I'm a millionair
11:47 AM t4nk_freenode: _unreal_, will you finally answer my question now?
11:48 AM _unreal_: what Q is that
11:48 AM _unreal_: I just have not been on line much because I have to save my DATA
11:48 AM t4nk_freenode: how things went with the cnc build of yours
11:48 AM _unreal_: ahh its slow. have not done much of anything
11:48 AM t4nk_freenode: did you get the c-beams?
11:48 AM _unreal_: long since but the new parts are for an other machine that is on TOTAL pause now.
11:50 AM _unreal_: the 2.2kw spindle and new beams and everything are for the machine that I WAS/am going to build when I'm able. but because I had to bring the machine that I had been building before home. And never got to finish "at home or work an other long story". I'm working on that.
11:50 AM _unreal_: that one is currently about 70% done
11:51 AM t4nk_freenode: so, that one will be larger and with c-beams then?
11:51 AM _unreal_: I need only rebuild the XY arm and get the Z setup. all the wiring everything is "done" just needs to be relocated to the alteration when I finish the build.
11:51 AM t4nk_freenode: I had a long ponder, and I decided not to go with c-beams..
11:51 AM _unreal_: the one I'm working on is going to have a work area of about ISH 18"x20" ish
11:52 AM _unreal_: and maybe 5" on the z
11:52 AM _unreal_: not sure yet
11:52 AM t4nk_freenode: bought some steel square tubing instead
11:52 AM _unreal_: steel works. just keep in mind its NOT straight
11:53 AM t4nk_freenode: I figure it will be a billion times stronger
11:53 AM _unreal_: very true
11:53 AM t4nk_freenode: mmm... I think my beams are pretty straight though
11:53 AM t4nk_freenode: ?
11:53 AM _unreal_: if they look 100% straight then they are prob 99%
11:54 AM _unreal_: how are you going to use them?
11:54 AM t4nk_freenode: the only drawback is... I have to fit it together by hand.. and that's a problem for me
11:54 AM _unreal_: ball bearings running on them
11:54 AM t4nk_freenode: yes
11:54 AM _unreal_: or mounting a rail?
11:54 AM t4nk_freenode: I already tested with the bearings
11:54 AM t4nk_freenode: it is phenomenal compared to what I had
11:54 AM _unreal_: running bearings on it. there is no point to do any "correcting"
11:54 AM t4nk_freenode: should have gone with that from the start
11:55 AM t4nk_freenode: how do you mean? I can adjust the tension of the bearings
11:55 AM _unreal_: if you were to mount a rail to it. then I would suggest sanding the beam on a flat surface to "lap" it
11:55 AM _unreal_: bearing "rails" are very sensitive to flex
11:56 AM _unreal_: and can bind at the slightest torque from mounting.
11:56 AM t4nk_freenode: yeah, and those sr, or sbr or whatever, rails... look nice and all, but I guess they aren't nice at all ;)
11:56 AM _unreal_: tooling torque is less an issue
11:56 AM _unreal_: they are VERY nice
11:56 AM t4nk_freenode: and the bearings for them are flimsy too! and also evrything is prone to play
11:56 AM t4nk_freenode: not sturdy at all
11:56 AM _unreal_: everything just has to be stupid square
11:57 AM _unreal_: they are very sturdy
11:57 AM t4nk_freenode: I saw a vid, with a guy demonstrating the play it had
11:57 AM _unreal_: everything can have play.and SBR are more prone. but it depends on how they are used
11:58 AM t4nk_freenode: hehe.. I'll snap a picture later on, but there is No play on what I have ;)
11:58 AM t4nk_freenode: none at all
11:58 AM _unreal_: good
11:58 AM t4nk_freenode: but like I said... the c-beams, or extrusions.. you can mount things easily
11:58 AM _unreal_: if you are using square tubing. then the best thing you can do if not already is an adjustment for aligning
11:58 AM t4nk_freenode: and I need to drill the holes and such by hand
11:59 AM _unreal_: have you started building yet?
11:59 AM t4nk_freenode: and that's a big problem for me
11:59 AM _unreal_: with the steel beams?
11:59 AM t4nk_freenode: not really, just got back from the hardware store, got myself a few decent drill bits
11:59 AM t4nk_freenode: center punch
12:00 PM t4nk_freenode: I've only made a test with the bearings, but that was rather tough for me... to get the holes in the right place and such
12:01 PM t4nk_freenode: still not sure how to do it right... I'll print a template to slide around smaller square tubing, and then use a center punch, hopefully, to mark the holes
12:02 PM t4nk_freenode: I tried a template with the test... used it to drill through it, but I guess something went wrong and the holes were out of alignment
12:03 PM t4nk_freenode: then I tried another template, with some larger guides for the drill... but the template broke immediately ;)
12:03 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.4e19b19b40336fe0674422a2af14ba9e?rik=diZeYCCZ7dv6NQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fi.imgur.com%2f8G9I9.png&ehk=5oOO9ylEkLqIT6b3J0xpq1dA%2b7NaOUkyn6yE00hlveA%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0
12:03 PM t4nk_freenode: now I'll try another template, and smack it with a center punch, hopefully that's gonna work
12:04 PM t4nk_freenode: is that your design?
12:04 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, in that picture see those squares
12:04 PM _unreal_: the little holes are for four bolts or set screws WHAT EVER... you can adjust each rail in any direction a few MM to fine tune
12:04 PM _unreal_: no
12:05 PM _unreal_: not pictured but then you have 2-4 bolts going through that block into the CNC machine body for the hard mount
12:05 PM t4nk_freenode: yeah, that'll work, but I guess it's also making things less sturdy
12:05 PM _unreal_: wrong
12:06 PM _unreal_: its not going to make anything less sturdy. if your using 8-12mm bolts pressing on the tube. its NOT going anywhere
12:07 PM _unreal_: besides the only load the rail like that should see is going to push INTO the bolts. there is no "sliding" force because the bearings put little to no sliding force into the rails.
12:07 PM _unreal_: other wise there yes would be a risk of the rails dragging with the axis that was moving.
12:08 PM _unreal_: aside from that "not needed" once fully tuned the end rail mounts could be epoxy filed to lock em in....
12:08 PM t4nk_freenode: but uhh.. those round bars.. no way I'm ever gonna do that again!
12:08 PM _unreal_: again NOT needed
12:08 PM _unreal_: you can do that with square or round
12:08 PM _unreal_: its just a find adjustment system
12:08 PM _unreal_: fine
12:09 PM _unreal_: so you can square up all of the axis
12:09 PM t4nk_freenode: yeah, that might be handy
12:09 PM _unreal_: you need only do it once.
12:10 PM _unreal_: once squared. it should never loose its location. You can also use longer bolts and drive nuts down to ensure the bolt is locked into place.
12:10 PM t4nk_freenode: on this first smaller build, same size as my current machine, I intend to just 3d print some rig to keep the beams in place, then smack them with a center punch too, and drill some holes, bolt them together
12:11 PM _unreal_: now that exact cnc FRAME design I dont like. I'm just showing an example of the little END adjustment mounts ONLY
12:11 PM t4nk_freenode: 3d printing the alignment worked fine for the current machine
12:11 PM t4nk_freenode: but if I'm gonna build a larger machine.. I'll want to have some adjustment options indeed
12:12 PM t4nk_freenode: the plan is to make the larger machine with the smaller machine, since I could probably mill metal now too
12:13 PM _unreal_: you could prob 3d print those mounts
12:15 PM _unreal_: or just make an end mount that the rail fits into tight with like ONE bolt to lock it to the end mount. and then have the entire end mount free to move in any direction a little and the cnc body mounting bolts would lock it in to place.
12:15 PM _unreal_: again your call
12:16 PM _unreal_: IMO its not worth trying to make fixed mounts for rails unless you have a machine with ZERO play. The chances of the locations being off by a few thou are too hight. and being off by a litt tiny bit can make a HUGE load on the steppers.
12:17 PM _unreal_: or skew the axis travel from one end to the other
12:19 PM _unreal_: The nice thing about adjustment blocks for the rail "TUBE" mounts. you can then TRAM the cnc machine. meaning align everything and ensure that the spindle is always perfectly vertical.
12:22 PM roycroft: i'll be mounting my y and x axis rails on 80/20 extrusions, and will be able to shim the rails as necessary to straighten them
12:24 PM roguish[m]: roycroft: how ya going to measure it the rails are straight? and if the axes are perpendicular?
12:24 PM roguish[m]: all 3 axes?
12:24 PM _unreal_: now the beams them selves will have the greatest flex at the mid point. its your choice how you build the machine. I would strongly suggest taking a play out of my book. and use a large U bolt with a bearing setup on the opposite side of the rail. You can lock in the mount and not require compression forces driving the rails twards each other
12:24 PM roycroft: i'll rig something up with a dial indicator
12:25 PM _unreal_: roycroft, if your mounting rails to extrusion. your adjustment should be in the extrusion mounting scheme. NOT shims. hehe
12:26 PM roycroft: i'm not going to assume that the extrusions will be perfectly straight
12:26 PM _unreal_: rails them selves should require an alignment jig to be built. and thats just for centering the rail to the extrusion during the rail to extrusion mounting processes.
12:26 PM t4nk_freenode: _unreal_, that was my main concern with the c-beams... they will have flex, couple of 10ths of a mm on a meter length with only a small load
12:26 PM roycroft: my extrusions will not flex
12:26 PM _unreal_: roycroft, if you warped extrusion you have bigger problems.
12:26 PM roycroft: well, the y extrusions won't
12:26 PM roguish[m]: roycroft: most important is what are your requirements? and expectations?
12:26 PM _unreal_: roycroft, on top of that your using SBR right?
12:26 PM roycroft: _unreal_: i'm talking about a few thousandths at most
12:27 PM roguish[m]: everything flexes.................it's all a matter of how much
12:27 PM t4nk_freenode: I don't think my beams will flex at all, but if I wanted to.. I guess I could support them in the middle with a bolt, since the bearings will go around them
12:27 PM _unreal_: that its self will straighten deviation before flexing
12:27 PM roycroft: no, i'm not using sbr
12:27 PM t4nk_freenode: roycroft, ... your extrusions will flex ;)
12:27 PM roycroft: i'll be using hgr
12:27 PM roycroft: they won't, t4nk_freenode
12:28 PM _unreal_: HGR 25? or greater
12:28 PM roycroft: they will be mounted securely to the sides of the machine
12:28 PM t4nk_freenode: gotta run to the store, bbl
12:28 PM roycroft: hgr 20
12:28 PM roycroft: and i've been told by multiple people that hgr 20 is overkill for my application
12:28 PM _unreal_: ya HGR will only flex in one direction "easy" and even that is slight.
12:29 PM roycroft: i've been redesigning my gantry sides again, and i hope to have more time to work on that this evening
12:29 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, depends on your design system
12:29 PM roycroft: i've been distracted lately by good weather, and working on outdoor chores
12:30 PM roycroft: i need to install a new heating element in a kiln in a few minutes
12:30 PM roycroft: basically, daylight hours are not good times for me to do cad work, and there are a lot more daylight hours now than there were even recently
12:31 PM * roycroft doesn't think he's opened up solidworks in the better part of a week
12:33 PM roguish[m]: roycroft: did you ever get your 'purchased' solidworks license transfered?
12:33 PM roycroft: i have not uploaded any drawings for quite a while now - these go back to january - and there have been some significant changes, but this is what i was working on then:
12:33 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/CNC-Router/Full-Assembly-Preliminary-3.jpeg
12:33 PM roycroft: yes, roguish
12:33 PM roguish[m]: coool
12:33 PM roycroft: i went to the person's house, we logged into the dassault account, changed the info to me, then i logged in on my laptop and changed the password
12:34 PM roycroft: then i installed the software while was there and confirmed that i could license it
12:34 PM roycroft: then i gave him the money
12:34 PM roguish[m]: good deal man
12:34 PM roycroft: so i'm on sw 2018 now
12:34 PM roguish[m]: 2018 is ok. no huge problems.
12:34 PM roycroft: so far i'm happy with it
12:35 PM roycroft: and i've not used solidcam yet, but that's one reason i wanted to upgrade
12:35 PM roguish[m]: do you want to add CAM to it?
12:35 PM roycroft: it's already there
12:35 PM roguish[m]: OK. I add HSMExpress from Autodesk.
12:35 PM roycroft: another reason is that sw2012 does not run well on windows 10, and probably won't run at all on windows 11
12:35 PM _unreal_: roy. just looked at that picture. rotate your Y bearings to the side. NOT the top. your adding flex
12:36 PM roycroft: _unreal_: i may do that
12:36 PM roguish[m]: but if your license includes solidcam that's good.too
12:36 PM roycroft: i'm still toying what what to do about that
12:36 PM roycroft: i used to have them on the side, and the ball screw on the bottom
12:36 PM roycroft: then i moved them to the top, and my current version has rails on the top and the bottom of the rail
12:36 PM roycroft: so two rails per side
12:37 PM _unreal_: roycroft, JUST keep in mind. your XY stiffness depends on how stiff your Y mounting scheme is.
12:37 PM roycroft: but i may go back to rails on the sides and drive screws on the bottom
12:37 PM roycroft: yes
12:37 PM _unreal_: roycroft, some people even dbl the Y bearing setup one above the other
12:37 PM roycroft: the x extrusion should add a lot of lateral stiffness
12:38 PM roycroft: it's a big extrusion
12:38 PM roycroft: i'm considering that as well, _unreal_
12:38 PM _unreal_: but if the vertical arm of the Y axis is stiff enough. then the lateral flexure is greatly reduced. but adding a small projecting mount as pictured to go to the bearings will add a high risk of flex
12:38 PM roycroft: two rails on each side, and the screw underneath
12:39 PM roycroft: cost is now a fairly significant consideration
12:39 PM roycroft: parts have gone up as much as 40-50% since i first budgeted this
12:40 PM _unreal_: hence I purchased a bunch of parts some time ago. I had a feeling all of this market nonsense was coming. infact I talked about it some time ago. ther there is a large looming market crash coming.
12:40 PM _unreal_: the market crash is going to be epic. and I'm in a very VERY good position to capitilize on it in my stocks :) CANT WAIT.
12:40 PM roycroft: yes, i anticipated that we'd see this kind of inflation, but i did not have my design refined enough to buy most of the stuff ahead of time
12:40 PM roycroft: i bought my spindle and vfd last year
12:41 PM roycroft: and i bought almost everything for the controller last year
12:41 PM roycroft: because i knew exactly what i needed for that stuff
12:41 PM roycroft: but i'm still working on the rails and extrusions
12:41 PM _unreal_: I got most of the rails I need"ed" for the new NEW machine build that is now on hold. so I'm more or less good but working on the smaller new cnc will do
12:42 PM roycroft: my most current design has the length of the gantry sides along the y axis a lot shorter
12:42 PM Loetmichel: *harrrumph* thats what you get when you kickstart something. The Creality CR6-SE 3d-Printer i own is VERY quiet, even while printing, silent drivers and all... UNTIL the PSU fan starts reacting to it heating up. wife just came in. "Something is whisteling here. That will not be all night, will it?!?" *grmbl*
12:42 PM roycroft: when i doubled up the rails i figured i could make the distance between the trucks less and still have axial stability
12:43 PM roycroft: i'm trying to recover some real estate while keeping the working footprint the same
12:43 PM _unreal_: Loetmichel, put a "room" fan on it
12:43 PM Loetmichel: room?
12:43 PM roycroft: 3" is a lot of real estate to recover for me
12:43 PM _unreal_: desk fan. up right fan.
12:43 PM _unreal_: box fan
12:44 PM _unreal_: with any luck could "help??"
12:44 PM roycroft: get her some whale songs with ocean wave sounds that she can play while in bed
12:44 PM Loetmichel: _unreal_: ah. its the internal "temperature controlled" fan in the meanwell PSU. it will not help to put a bigger external fan onto that.
12:44 PM _unreal_: ouch
12:44 PM Loetmichel: should probably redesign the airflow there to get it quieter
12:44 PM _unreal_: so let us know about your night on the couch in the comment section Loetmichel
12:44 PM _unreal_: LOL
12:45 PM roycroft: _unreal_: i just opened sw on the cad machine, and i have one gantry design with rails on the top and the bottom, and one with a single rail on the side
12:46 PM roycroft: so i guess i'm really going back and forth on that decision
12:46 PM Loetmichel: well, if all fails i can close the door to the hobby room over night. Honestly its a bit surprising that she can hear it from the bedroom at all... considering the level of "background" coming out of the bedroom whenever she watches TV :)
12:46 PM roycroft: two rails on the side might be the ticket in the end
12:47 PM roycroft: but again, those rails ahve gone up about 40-50% in price
12:47 PM _unreal_: roycroft, ebay
12:48 PM roycroft: i only have about $3k to finish this project
12:48 PM roycroft: and a design that would cost me more like $4k-$5k
12:48 PM roycroft: ebay is where i've been pricing the linear motion components
12:50 PM * roycroft heads off to work on the kiln
12:50 PM enleth: Loetmichel: it still might help, getting more heat out of the PSU through convection across all of its external surface could keep it from turning the internal fan on
12:50 PM Loetmichel: enleth: they opted to pack the PSU in the base
12:50 PM Loetmichel: all air it can get is the quater inch "feet" under the printer.
12:51 PM Loetmichel: i think thats most of the problem
12:51 PM Loetmichel: s/quater/quarter
12:51 PM Loetmichel: and there is NO external surface aviable for convection
12:51 PM Loetmichel: its enclosed in the base
12:53 PM enleth: ah well
12:54 PM enleth: you still might be able to duct a large fan in there, but long term you'll need to swap the PSU fan for a better one
12:58 PM Loetmichel: enleth: i am thinking about it. Honestly its a "null series" printer. (i kickstarted its development, i think mine has a serial number <100) From what i heard they changed the PSU later. or at least the PSU fan
01:00 PM enleth: I've refanned at least two Meanwell PSUs, they use standard form factors and will take any fan that physically fits and has a matching voltage
01:00 PM enleth: which means you can get a silent gaming PC fan that fits
01:01 PM Loetmichel: yeah, thats the plan. IF its aviable in 24V ;)
01:01 PM enleth: the fan might still be 12V
01:01 PM Loetmichel: also seeing to more "airflow" under the unit and out the back
01:01 PM Loetmichel: nope, all meanwell PSUs i know have the fans on the output
01:02 PM enleth: then get two identical 12V fans
01:03 PM Loetmichel: if all fails: i know how to make a Vreg that can "dissipate" the 12V that are too much
01:03 PM Loetmichel: not that much of a problem
01:03 PM enleth: no, really, two 12V fans are a better solution
01:03 PM enleth: just make sure to get two of the same type, so they actually split the 24V between them evenly
01:04 PM Loetmichel: you know those "brick" (open frame?) 24V 20A Meanwell PSUs? there is no ROOM for a second 50mm fan
01:04 PM enleth: stack them
01:04 PM Loetmichel: thats even worse
01:04 PM enleth: server fan modules often do that
01:04 PM Loetmichel: there is only about 6mm under the printer for it to get air NOW
01:05 PM enleth: ah, so it's mounted with the fan pointed down?
01:05 PM Loetmichel: yep
01:05 PM enleth: well shit, you'll have to get creative
01:06 PM Loetmichel: yeah, its solvable
01:06 PM Loetmichel: it was more like a rant about "why did i opt to be an early adopter? My own fault!"
01:07 PM Loetmichel: new designs always have toothing problems like that
01:07 PM Loetmichel: usually i tend to wait for V2 or so ;)
01:10 PM enleth: to be fair, they did not design the PSU, it could have very well ended up in the production version because of availability and only get noticed as a noise issue after a whole batch ships
01:11 PM enleth: in fact, that could still happen if their current PSU supply becomes unavailable for any reason and they go looking for a replacement
01:11 PM Loetmichel: in a good company that will not happen again
01:11 PM Loetmichel: even if they run out of the quieter ones at some point
01:12 PM Loetmichel: but yeah, i meant that problems like this are bound to happen on early models.
01:13 PM enleth: if they can control it, sure - I wouldn't be surprised at all if the new quiet PSUs suddently started arriving with a louder fan because the chinese factory ran out of the quiet ones, with no warning whatsoever
01:14 PM enleth: wrangling the supply of complex externally supplied parts can be a shit job
01:15 PM pere: Any of you know how to use a <URL: http://www.royaltool.co.uk/pwbset.pdf >?
01:15 PM pere: I assume it is out of calibration and need to be calibrated first.
01:25 PM Loetmichel: enleth: meanwell is one of the few chinese companies that have a reputation to defend. so THAT will probably not happen, either.
01:25 PM enleth: fair enough
01:25 PM Loetmichel: but i meant: Creality is aware of the issue now. they will check occasionally if they are a good company.
01:29 PM roycroft: yay - i have been able to schedule a booster appointment for friday next
01:31 PM Loetmichel: ahh. print done. That screaming silence though now that the printer is off... :)
01:34 PM t4nk_freenode: hey, Loetmichel, ... maybe you damaged your ears recently withouth knowing it ;)
01:34 PM t4nk_freenode: that's why you couldn't hear it
01:34 PM t4nk_freenode: been jack-hammering recently?
02:02 PM t4nk_freenode: argh... I bought the wrong tools.. I got nail punches instead of center punches :|
02:19 PM roycroft: my kiln is getting hot
02:19 PM roycroft: that was a pain in the butt, though
02:20 PM roycroft: the instructions for the heating element say to stretch the coil to the correct length before installing, but the manufacturer had pre-stretched it, and it was too long
02:20 PM roycroft: scrunching it back up was not fun, and i did not do the neatest job
02:20 PM roycroft: and i got the heating element from the manufacturer of the kiln, who asked me the dimensions of the kiln, the model number, and the serial number
02:21 PM roycroft: one would think they would be able to stretch it to the correct length, given the information they requested
02:22 PM unterhaus_: incompetence abounds
02:22 PM t4nk_freenode: but not us, for we are rocket scientists :)
02:23 PM unterhaus_: I'm a rocket surgeon tyvm
02:23 PM roycroft: rocket scientists cannot keep track of us customary vs. metric units
02:24 PM roycroft: look at the mars climate orbiter disaster
02:28 PM srk: accidentally mars climate lander
02:29 PM t4nk_freenode: hehe
02:29 PM t4nk_freenode: 3/8" beneath the surface ;)
02:30 PM roycroft: it did not land at all
02:31 PM roycroft: it either burned up in the atmosphere or skipped off the atmosphere and headed towards the sun
02:37 PM CloudEvil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-4yOx1CnXE Wow.
02:38 PM JT-Shop: replacement lock miter bit has a smaller pin, checked on a bit I cut with the old one
02:38 PM CloudEvil: Flying a drone through various parts, inc huuuge operating presses of Giga Berlin Tesla factory
02:38 PM CloudEvil: (put it on quarter speed, and highest res)
02:42 PM CloudEvil: At points, damn near every single frame is worth a seperate look.
04:29 PM roycroft: my kiln is over 1000 degrees now - it used to only get up to 900 or so
04:29 PM roycroft: i'm hoping to get to 1100
04:30 PM roycroft: 1150 would be ideal, as i could melt copper at that temperature
04:31 PM roycroft: and this is assuming the temperature probe is reasonably accurate still, which it probably isn't
04:31 PM roycroft: i'll replace that when i get the pid controller for the kiln
04:53 PM t4nk_freenode: get it a bit higher and melt aluminium!
04:54 PM roycroft: um, aluminium melts at about 660 degrees
04:54 PM roycroft: i'm way past that point
04:54 PM roycroft: it's just under 1100 right now
04:54 PM t4nk_freenode: ? I thought 1300
04:55 PM roycroft: it sounds like you still use parochial units
04:55 PM t4nk_freenode: hehe.. yeah, I was thinking the same thing
04:57 PM roycroft: the melt temperatures of interest to me are: aluminium - 660, silver - 962, copper 1084
04:57 PM t4nk_freenode: yeah... 626 cenlcius
04:57 PM t4nk_freenode: I thought it was way higher
04:57 PM roycroft: if i want to melt any of those and be able to pour ingots i need to heat another 50 degrees or so
04:57 PM roycroft: which is why i have that target of 1150 degrees
04:57 PM t4nk_freenode: I'd like to have something to melt alu :|
04:58 PM roycroft: this is not the primary purpose of the kiln, and if i can't get the temp i want for melting, that's fine
04:58 PM roycroft: i originally bought it for heat treating steel, and it gets plenty hot for that
04:58 PM roycroft: and now i want to do some enamelling, which it also gets plenty hot to do
04:59 PM roycroft: if i can't do the melts in it, i'll just build a little gas-fired furnace for that
04:59 PM roycroft: i've wanted a forge for a long time
04:59 PM t4nk_freenode: I wonder if an electrical solution could do alu
05:00 PM roycroft: this kiln is electric
05:00 PM roycroft: and runs on 120vac
05:00 PM roycroft: it's small, though, but big enough for my needs
05:01 PM t4nk_freenode: problem is I don't have the space to run a furnace
05:01 PM t4nk_freenode: unfortunately
05:01 PM roycroft: that's my issue, always
05:01 PM roycroft: if i need a bigger kiln i can easily get one cheap that will go up to at least 1250
05:02 PM roycroft: but i don't have a good place for it
05:02 PM Tom_L: stop buying more 'stuff'
05:02 PM roycroft: i've been pretty good about getting rid of stuff as i add new stuff
05:02 PM roycroft: my shop is not getting more crowded than it was
05:02 PM Tom_L: you reach a point that becomes mandetory
05:03 PM roycroft: i sold a stationary sander a year or so ago that i really did not want to get rid of, but it consumed a lot of space, and while i used it regularly, i had a greater need for that space
05:03 PM roycroft: i'm still a little sad not to have it, but it was the right decision to get rid of it
05:03 PM Tom_L: jt just builds more shops
05:04 PM roycroft: i don't have that luxury
05:04 PM roycroft: i'm at my limit - zoning won't allow anything else
05:04 PM roycroft: i could potentially build up, but that's really expensive
05:06 PM roycroft: https://salem.craigslist.org/art/d/stayton-bench-top-kiln/7459739013.html
05:06 PM roycroft: that's the same model kiln that i'm working on today
05:06 PM roycroft: mine is in better shape
05:07 PM roycroft: that one is even very close to the serial number of mine it's only off by about a dozen
05:37 PM roycroft: it made it up to 1150, which was my target
05:38 PM roycroft: i killed it after that, since the kiln is only rated to 1100
05:38 PM roycroft: but i'm fairly confident that i can melt copper in it
05:39 PM Tom_L: what do you plan to cast out of copper?
05:42 PM t4nk_freenode: a spool of .6mm wire :b
05:42 PM roycroft: ingots
05:42 PM roycroft: to roll out into sheets
05:42 PM Tom_L: got a roller to do so?
05:42 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, how much aluminum do you need/want to melt
05:43 PM t4nk_freenode: well, I got the idea from that series about the metal lathe
05:43 PM t4nk_freenode: but I guess it would require quite a large amount
05:44 PM _unreal_: not sure what your goal is
05:44 PM t4nk_freenode: do you know the series of books?
05:45 PM enleth: t4nk_freenode: DIY electric furnace here, melts aluminum without any issues
05:45 PM _unreal_: I have not followed the conversation
05:45 PM CloudEvil: Do you already have the copper?
05:45 PM t4nk_freenode: got any pics enleth?
05:45 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, how much metal do you want to melt
05:46 PM CloudEvil: Rolling out copper sheet is not trivial in any but the tiniest sizes
05:46 PM Tom_L: use metal electrodes
05:46 PM t4nk_freenode: _unreal_, 'the metal lathe' is a series of books on how to build a lathe from scratch, melting your own aluminium
05:46 PM _unreal_: Oh... thats your goal
05:46 PM t4nk_freenode: well.. it could be
05:46 PM t4nk_freenode: but smaller scale would be nice too though
05:46 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, not worth it in your case. go with epoxy concrete
05:47 PM Tom_L: it's all about the adventure though
05:47 PM t4nk_freenode: yeah
05:47 PM Tom_L: see what i can set fire to...
05:47 PM t4nk_freenode: ll
05:47 PM t4nk_freenode: lol
05:47 PM _unreal_: epoxy concrete is a system where you use epoxy resin with concrete mix. make it and pour it into a large square tube. Mount rails and you have the basic part of a lathe
05:48 PM Tom_L: we know, a few have built mills that way
05:48 PM t4nk_freenode: yeah, don't let CaptHindsight[m] hear it
05:48 PM Tom_L: pretty sure Valen did one
05:50 PM CloudEvil: Concreoncrete is similar, except where you use concrete with a concrete mix.
05:50 PM CloudEvil: (not actually)
05:52 PM enleth: t4nk_freenode: https://x0.at/qgY3.jpg https://x0.at/NOhj.jpg https://x0.at/JgAQ.jpg (the electrical box is off for maintenance)
05:52 PM t4nk_freenode: ... that's very nice indeed!
05:53 PM enleth: sheet metal work on it is kinda... sheet
05:53 PM enleth: but it works.
05:54 PM Tom_L: you made it?
05:54 PM XXCoder: ah new jt video
05:54 PM XXCoder: nice
05:55 PM roycroft: i have a small top loader kiln as well that i used years ago when i was developing/experimenting with various glazes for ceramic tile work
05:55 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, if you need to do a small aluminum pour, you can do the coffee can foundry
05:55 PM enleth: Tom_L: not just me, a friend did most of the actual building and I mostly fixed any design issues as they came along
05:55 PM _unreal_: but thats for like 8oz
05:55 PM roycroft: but for heat treating metals and enamelling a front loader is much better
05:55 PM roycroft: basically any application where the parts are put into or pulled out of the kiln while still hot
05:56 PM roycroft: for the glaze work i would load the kiln cold, and had a kiln sitter that kicked it off when it reached the set point
05:56 PM enleth: Tom_L: as in, the design is 70% mine, the time physically doing stuff to build it is maybe 30% mine
05:56 PM roycroft: and i would let it cool to room temperature before unloading
05:57 PM enleth: the body is firebrick, ceramic wool and some riveted galvanized steel
05:57 PM t4nk_freenode: yeah, _unreal_, I've thought about that, but that could get messy, and not to mention almost a sure fire way of losing your eyebrows ;)
05:57 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, ahh no
05:57 PM enleth: we wound the heating elements ourselves on the lathe
05:58 PM _unreal_: I've done coffee can foundrys in the past for small pours. very easy
05:58 PM roycroft: enleth: i was going to wind a heating element myself but i could not find wire with the correct resistance
05:58 PM enleth: 400V 3ph, can't remember the output power right now, definitely somewhere below 10kW
05:58 PM _unreal_: just takes a large metal coffee can, a small can and charcoal
05:58 PM roycroft: i could have made my own element for about $20
05:59 PM roycroft: instead i ended up paying $100 to get one from the manufacturer
05:59 PM roycroft: but i spent several hours looking for wire that would work
05:59 PM _unreal_: cut a hole in the side, set a stand off inside like a flat rock load with coal. add a 24" metal tube connected to some kind of a blower
05:59 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, thats about it
05:59 PM t4nk_freenode: _unreal_, or you could pour some plaster into a bucket
05:59 PM _unreal_: and a shit (sheet) metal lid with a hole in the top middle
06:00 PM roycroft: i probably should have just run 240v to it - that wire is easy to find
06:00 PM _unreal_: channel locks and you can do the pour easy.
06:00 PM _unreal_: I did a few lost foam pours years ago
06:00 PM _unreal_: never had an issue
06:00 PM enleth: roycroft: I'm pretty sure it was easier to find wires that ended up providing the right coil length at the right power for 400V than any lower voltage
06:01 PM t4nk_freenode: but yeah, the heating element method seems a lot nicer and cleaner
06:02 PM roycroft: yes, enleth
06:02 PM roycroft: it would have been easy to find the wire for 240v
06:02 PM roycroft: but for 120v it was really tough
06:02 PM roycroft: and i'm sure it would have been at least as easy to find wire for 400v
06:04 PM roycroft: i was originally going to keep the analog control panel and wire the pid controller externally in parallel, with a separate temperature probe for the pid controller
06:05 PM roycroft: and if i did that i'd need to keep it at 120v
06:05 PM roycroft: i'm thinking now of ditching the analog panel and making a new pid-based panel
06:05 PM enleth: actually, wait
06:05 PM enleth: you can do several elements in parallel
06:05 PM roycroft: in a small kiln that can be kind of tough
06:06 PM enleth: our furnace, being 3 phase, has 3 separate elements
06:06 PM roycroft: there's not a lot of room for the multiple element leads
06:06 PM enleth: I can't really think of anything smaller than that being usable at all
06:06 PM roycroft: mine is 200x200x200 inside
06:07 PM roycroft: and that's perfect for what i'm doing
06:07 PM enleth: ours is pretty close
06:07 PM roycroft: i got it for heat treating steel
06:07 PM roycroft: and i don't often have parts longer than 200mm to heat treat
06:08 PM enleth: the bulkhead that has all the connections between heating wire and normal wiring is a bit cramped with 6 leads, but it wasn't that big of a deal to fit it all in there
06:08 PM roycroft: if i'm honest, just buying a replacement from the manufacturer that fit pretty easily was worth the extra cost
06:09 PM roycroft: it took me about an hour from start to finish to install it
06:10 PM enleth: BTW, I used ceramic screw-in fuse bodies as conduits through the wall and sheet metal, they work great and even if you buy new fuses to pull them apart, they're one of the cheapest readily available ceramic parts with a hole through them
06:10 PM roycroft: i was just out cutting the grass and the spring from the governor to the throttle broke
06:10 PM enleth: I have a huge stockpile of blown fuses I kept just for the ceramics
06:10 PM roycroft: it's a really weird spring - i don't know if i am going to be able to find one this afternoon
06:10 PM roycroft: i hope i don't have to order it
06:11 PM roycroft: our original residential electrical wiring was knob and tube
06:11 PM roycroft: which was used until the mid 1930s or so
06:12 PM roycroft: old tubes can be found at thrift stores pretty readily
06:12 PM roycroft: i should think they would be good for kiln stuff
06:12 PM roycroft: but blown ceramic fuses would work well for that too
06:12 PM roycroft: they're harder to find around here
06:13 PM roycroft: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Tubes-no-knobs.jpg
06:21 PM enleth: E27 thread fuses are still a thing in my area, up until the 90s they were being fitted even in new buildings'
06:22 PM enleth: completely different body design than what is known as "Edison base" fuses in the US, it seems
06:23 PM enleth: but I'm pretty sure they'd be interchangeable
06:25 PM enleth: of course there's an IEC standard for them, IEC 60269
06:25 PM enleth: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Smeltveiligheid.jpg
06:30 PM tcurdt: Is there a controller board that uses ethernet and doesn't break the bank? and is in stock somewhere (in the EU) ... it seems like an impossible mission
06:42 PM t4nk_freenode: tcurdt, I really don't know anything about that, but if you like diy... https://forum.linuxcnc.org/27-driver-boards/44422-colorcnc-colorlight-5a-75e-5a-75b-as-fpga-controller-board?start=0 might be interesting
06:48 PM tcurdt: interesting ... so that's a FPGA dev board that can be used?
06:50 PM t4nk_freenode: well it's supposed to be a card to drive led-matrices, but it can be easily hacked into being a dev board. I got mine for like 13euros
06:51 PM t4nk_freenode: so everything is already in place
06:52 PM t4nk_freenode: you'd need to bypass or replace the buffers though, but that's no biggy
06:53 PM t4nk_freenode: (depending on the output levels you can handle)
06:59 PM tcurdt: I am fine with some hacking - but FPGA is a bit outside my comfort zone.
06:59 PM tcurdt: How does LinuxCNC support work for it?
07:01 PM t4nk_freenode: bleh, it's being experimented with linuxcnc at the moment, so it appears, so you'd have to do little fpga coding yourself
07:04 PM t4nk_freenode: well, I haven't tried it myself yet, mind, but https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/pull/1422
07:05 PM t4nk_freenode: but 'Firmware and driver is tested'
07:11 PM unterhaus_: they are talking about putting it in the next release, so it can't be too hard to get working?
07:14 PM tcurdt: sounds quite promising ... but also a bit bleeding edge :)
07:15 PM t4nk_freenode: one thing is for sure.. it won't break the bank ;)
07:15 PM t4nk_freenode: it might break your spirit, but not the bank
07:15 PM tcurdt: hehehe ... true!
08:50 PM roycroft: is anyone from not the usa, liberia, or myanmar around?
08:55 PM * roycroft imagines most of the europeans are sleeping
09:44 PM ve7it: west coast canuck here
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