#linuxcnc Logs

Mar 03 2022

01:20 AM Deejay: moin
04:51 AM Tom_L: morning
05:19 AM JT-Cave: morning
07:54 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by copper.libera.chat
11:09 AM skunkworks: is the forum down?
11:09 AM skunkworks: never mind
11:16 AM gp5st: I'm a complete newb at ... mechatronics? I think is the term. I'm not sure where a good place to start and build up some experience/confidence would be. I don't want to spend a ton of money getting parts to build a machine I'm not capable of building, but at the same time I can make a stepper do its thing with an arduino. Any idea of what a next step could be? I was thinking just making a single axis and going from there?
11:23 AM skunkworks: start simple? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xs-qVQtjOSs
11:25 AM gp5st: I'm just trying to figure out what's simple enough to feel like I'm challenging myself, but not so far beyond my abilities that I'm wasting a lot of time and money and just spinning my wheels
11:26 AM gp5st: oh, I like that video. Just a really small XY slide on a drill press
11:27 AM JT-Cave: once I made a stepper move with EMC2 there was no stopping me lol
11:30 AM gp5st: :D
11:32 AM * JT-Cave loads up the truck with the XP laptop and heads to the industrial park to diagnose a faulted AB PLC in a machine built in the 90's
11:34 AM gp5st: So, a servo motor natively has the ability to move a specific amount of degrees and moves via sequencing the coils. A servo motor is just a "normal" motor with an encoder, and it's up to the controller to do anything regarding angular positioning?
11:35 AM * JT-Cave has worked on those leak testers in the past
11:35 AM skunkworks: JT-Cave: we have some plc software that has to run in dos.
11:36 AM skunkworks: Stepper motor* natively has the ability to move a specific amount of degrees..
11:36 AM skunkworks: and yes
11:36 AM gp5st: err yes, sorry. brain fart
11:37 AM skunkworks: servos with a pid loop
11:37 AM gp5st: but you can add an encoder to a stepper and then the lines blur a bit.
11:37 AM JT-Cave: the first PLC I programmed with a hand held programmer
11:38 AM gp5st: steppers have more holding torque at a specific position but are slower? or why one vs the other?
11:38 AM gp5st: JT-Cave, depending on the setup that sounds nice or horrifying
11:38 AM skunkworks: gp5st: some what.. Steppers when they fall behind - they lose steps.. You can force them to drive harder. Servo you can.
11:39 AM skunkworks: can't force them to drive harder
11:40 AM skunkworks: But - you can certainly use the encoders for position feedback and following error.
11:43 AM gp5st: OK. Thank you :D
11:44 AM gp5st: On a different note: Does anyone who sells the electronics and motors still have a paper catalog?
11:45 AM gp5st: I love looking through my McMaster and DigiKeys (2011) catalogs sometimes just thinking about something or to get ideas on what's out there for a problem. Also can learn some from them, at least enough to know how to get more info
11:46 AM roycroft: i think allied still publish a paper catalog
11:46 AM roycroft: i haven't seen one from digi-key or mouser in years
11:47 AM roycroft: nor newark
11:48 AM gp5st: 2011 was the last for digikey afaik
11:48 AM roycroft: hmm
11:48 AM roycroft: i thought i had one slightly newer than that
11:49 AM roycroft: maybe not
11:49 AM roycroft: i have a 2010 digi-key catalog on the shelf, and a 2012 mouser catalog
11:49 AM gp5st: it's very possible I'm wrong, but it's somewhere around there
11:49 AM roycroft: 2010 newark
11:49 AM roycroft: and i don't know where i have my allied catalog
11:50 AM skunkworks: I also have a 2010 digikey
11:50 AM roycroft: 80/20 just sent me a new catalog, otoh
11:56 AM gp5st: half tempted to take the GB of pdf that automation direct gives out and just print and bind it at some print shop :-p
11:56 AM gp5st: I hate to waste paper, but idk, even a nice ereader isn't a substitute for a nice book
11:58 AM djdelorie: the digikey catalog was a fun read, but the plot was kinda thin...
11:58 AM Bleepshop: gp5st: Yeah, but then the copy/paste and search functions suck. LOL
12:01 PM XXCoder: for reading ereader is just fine
12:01 PM XXCoder: on manuals and such, eh I prefer physical book
12:02 PM roycroft: i've mixed feelings on that these days
12:02 PM djdelorie: I prefer paper for fiction, but I want my references searchable
12:02 PM djdelorie: esp with MCUs having specs that are 2000+ pages long
12:02 PM roycroft: while i still prefer printed books, and find it very useful to thumb through the pages of catalogs, i am getting old, and the print in those catalogs is so small it can be hard to read
12:04 PM roycroft: in the end, i find that when searching for ideas, printed books are best for me, but when searching for items, electronic catalogs with search features can best for me, depending on how well the search engine works
12:04 PM gp5st: yeah, exactly
12:16 PM perry_j1987: g'afternoon
12:30 PM gp5st: Are brushless motors not a thing in industry, or are they called something else? I can't find them on mcmaster or automation direct. (Yeah, I know other stores sell them, but I was just curious)
12:30 PM djdelorie: "brushless" is a bit of a category, look for BLDC or AC or Induction depending on the type
12:31 PM * gp5st has more to learn
12:31 PM roycroft: bldc is the term i find is commonly used, and it's a total lie :)
12:32 PM roycroft: bldc is really ac
12:32 PM djdelorie: mostly, yeah. Subtle difference in the waveform shapes and vector math
12:32 PM djdelorie: sinusoidal vs trapezoidal
12:35 PM djdelorie: AC motors are designed to run off wall current (sinusoidal), and BLDC are designed to run off DC switched according to the hall sensors (square waves)
12:44 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
01:11 PM djdelorie: another thought... AC motor RPM is determined by the AC frequency; changes in voltage cause changes in current to compensate. BLDC motor RPM is determined by the DC voltage, as the "frequency" is adjusted by the motor to compensate
01:12 PM djdelorie: but that may be more in the way they're used than the internal structure
01:12 PM CloudEvil: Frequency is in probably most cases set by the driver.
01:12 PM CloudEvil: Internal drivers do exist, but are comparatively rare
01:14 PM djdelorie: for BLDC if you want a specific RPM, you adjust the voltage (or PWM it) until it "happens" to turn at the right RPM
01:39 PM CloudEvil: No, you really don't.
01:40 PM djdelorie: er, yes? http://www.delorie.com/electronics/bldc/
01:40 PM CloudEvil: BLDC motors are synchronus motors, they require driving with a waveform at a specific multiple of the rotational frequency.
01:40 PM CloudEvil: The driver may in unusual cases be inside the motor, and take care of this, but this is not general.
01:41 PM CloudEvil: In specific cases (low power fans) you can sometimes PWM the voltage going into the driver, but this is not general.
01:41 PM djdelorie: my point is, the "frequency" is chosen by the motor, not by the power supply
01:41 PM djdelorie: BLDC motors can run anywhere from full RPM to zero
01:41 PM CloudEvil: The frequency is chosen by the driver, whcih is not usually integrated into the motor.
01:42 PM djdelorie: I spent a long time writing the software for that driver board, and I can tell you with surety that it's the opposite of what you say
01:42 PM djdelorie: it may *seem* that way, but it's not.
01:43 PM CloudEvil: The driver has to cope with ramping the frequency appropriately - but this is very much not the same thing as the motor choosing the correct RPM.
01:44 PM djdelorie: the driver has to cope with the angular position of the rotor, not the RPM itself.
01:44 PM djdelorie: unless the driver is told to run in "constant RPM" mode, there's nothing in the software that has anything to do with RPM at all
01:49 PM djdelorie: (unless the high level loops use RPM as a form of travel shaping, but it's still just feedback)
02:40 PM unterhausen: on redit: "I had trouble with linuxcnc and grbl" -- I feel like the software isn't the problem
02:46 PM enleth: I just realized, with genuine horror, that 1-2-3 blocks and similar fixturing implements with grids of tapped holes are completely unknown in the local machning community in my country, to the point that the name has no widely used translation of any kind and literally no one sells them
02:47 PM djdelorie: business opportunity?
02:47 PM unterhausen: how about 2 4 6 blocks?
02:47 PM enleth: same
02:48 PM unterhausen: how does mach 3 work with usb?
02:48 PM roycroft: your country probably has 25-50-75 blocks
02:49 PM enleth: chinese vendors actually make a "metric" version - 25 by 50 by 75mm, clearly a 1/2/3 blank with a wee bit more ground off of it, with holes in a 15mm grid - but for whatever braindead reason, they're tapped 3/8" instead of M10
02:49 PM enleth: roycroft: no one makes them here
02:49 PM enleth: no one sells them
02:49 PM roycroft: sounds like a first term machining class project :)
02:50 PM enleth: the only listings on the local amazon competitor site are automated, machine-translated listings from chinese suppliers
02:50 PM roycroft: you get precision milling practice, precision drilling practice, surface grinding practice, and perhaps hardening practice
02:50 PM roycroft: and you end up with a nice set of blocks to use during your machining career
02:51 PM roycroft: speaking of braindead things
02:51 PM unterhausen: enleth, thought you were in Poland
02:51 PM enleth: roycroft: that's true, but the same could be said of most fixturing implemements and yet they're available for sale for when you have a job to do
02:51 PM enleth: unterhausen: yep
02:51 PM roycroft: i'm moving right along with the new servers and network configuration for the country fair office
02:52 PM roycroft: i thought i was about ready to wrap it up, but then i was stopped dead in my tracks
02:52 PM roycroft: it turns out that windows *still* does not support cisco vpn connections
02:52 PM enleth: unterhausen: what I can get is all sorts of angle blocks, fixturing blocks and whatnot with T-slots or elongated through holes in them
02:52 PM unterhausen: I feel like there are machine shops in Poland using 1 2 3 blocks
02:52 PM enleth: the old school ones
02:52 PM roycroft: and cisco have gotten rid of the anyconnect essentials client, which was free
02:52 PM djdelorie: maybe they're called "layout blocks" or "setup blocks" ?
02:52 PM enleth: unterhausen: that was my assumption as well
02:52 PM roycroft: now users have to pay $100/year for a rental vpn client for windows
02:52 PM roycroft: but mac os suppports cisco vpn natively
02:53 PM roycroft: ios suppports cisco vpn natively
02:53 PM roycroft: openvpn suppports cisco vpn natively
02:53 PM enleth: djdelorie: I managed to figure out the proper word for this kind of accessory and still the only ones available are T-slots and through slots
02:53 PM roycroft: android suppports cisco vpn natively
02:53 PM roycroft: preetty much everything but windows does
02:53 PM enleth: as in, things like this: https://www.visla.pl/photo/product/f600x600/katownik-do-mocowania-vr-6-150-126-115-3082.jpg
02:54 PM enleth: it's nice, but it's not what I need
02:54 PM unterhausen: it wasn't that long ago that you had to buy 1 2 3 blocks from tooling suppliers here, not Amazon
02:54 PM unterhausen: here being the u.s.
02:54 PM enleth: this is something I'd expect Adam Booth to pull out of a tool cabinet, explaining that his grandfather made it and he likes to use it for the vintage feel
02:55 PM unterhausen: my shop is full of angle plates
02:56 PM unterhausen: that looks like a nice one
02:56 PM enleth: the next best thing is https://www.visla.pl/photo/product/f231x239/Katowniki-ustawcze-3104.jpg
02:56 PM enleth: super nice for some setups, sure
02:56 PM enleth: but that's still not a grid of tapped holes
02:56 PM unterhausen: I checked to see if bison made 123 blocks, but no
02:56 PM roycroft: can you shop next door?
02:56 PM roycroft: https://www.amazon.de//dp/B095RTJ2T6
02:57 PM enleth: roycroft: I actually have two of those and the very reason I started looking for new ones is the fact that they're tapped 3/8-16
02:57 PM enleth: who the fuck taps imperial threads into a metric block
02:57 PM unterhausen: don't you hate that?
02:58 PM enleth: and those are literally the only ones on amazon
02:58 PM unterhausen: almost as bad as metric/english tape measures and rules
02:58 PM XXCoder: unless they just re-ground 123 blocks rather than make em and tap 3/8-16
02:59 PM unterhausen: I have some BXA toolholders with bolts that are 6mm but take english wrenches
02:59 PM enleth: I do have some imperial tooling (taps, helicoil stuff) and hardware because the bridgeport is all imperial, but not enough to do fixturing
02:59 PM enleth: XXCoder: no, the holes are actually on a 15mm grid
02:59 PM XXCoder: hmm ok
02:59 PM unterhausen: going to have to order some 3/8 bolts
02:59 PM djdelorie: I'm going to turn a 3/8" x 1mm bolt just to mess with you guys.
03:00 PM XXCoder: fun lol
03:00 PM enleth: I made a whole part today that was supposed to bolt to a block, assuming all the way through making it that it's M10
03:00 PM roycroft: perhaps it's because the t-slot clamping sets generally come in 3/8"-16 or 1/2"-13
03:00 PM roycroft: but i really don't know
03:00 PM roycroft: i'm not in europe, and when i was i did no machining
03:01 PM roycroft: so i don't know if m10 and m12 clamping sets are used there
03:01 PM enleth: roycroft: M12 tends to be the default metric clamping set thread
03:01 PM roycroft: well
03:01 PM enleth: that's pretty much 7/16 but the pitch is somewhere inbetween UNF and UNC
03:01 PM roycroft: you could always take your 25-50-75 blocks and bore the 3/8" holes out to tap for m12
03:01 PM enleth: and I might end up doing just that
03:02 PM djdelorie: if they're hardened, anneal them first ;-)
03:02 PM XXCoder: djdelorie: eh that would have effect on block squareness
03:02 PM roycroft: depending on whether they are hardened or "chinese hardened" :)
03:02 PM djdelorie: if they're harder than your taps, tapping will be difficult
03:03 PM djdelorie: OTOH I had a chinese tap that couldn't tap mild steel... it bent.
03:03 PM roycroft: use a small boring bar with a ruby tipped cutter to cut the threads
03:04 PM roycroft: or sapphire if you prefer blue to red
03:07 PM enleth: djdelorie: actually, if you made a 3/8-1.5mm, that would be close enough to M10 to work
03:07 PM enleth: djdelorie: you can thread an M10 bolt into a 3/18-16 hole about 1.5 turns before it locks up
03:07 PM enleth: *3/8-16
03:08 PM enleth: M10-1 however is a non-standard thread
03:09 PM djdelorie: but not impossible: https://www.amazon.com/Atoplee-Metric-Thread-Right-M10x1-0/dp/B01CHRFLE8
03:09 PM enleth: sure, it's defined in the standard and all, it's just not marked as the recommended pitch for M10, which is 1.5mm
03:10 PM djdelorie: That's a sore spot for me, because I tripped over "nonstandard metric threads" a lot while restoring Japanese motorcycles
03:10 PM enleth: I have a left-handed M9 tap somewhere
03:11 PM enleth: not sure what pitch, but it was finer than would have been recommended, had M9 been anywhere close to "recommended" in the first place
03:12 PM enleth: one airsoft manufacturer decided that this is what they would use in their quick connect fittings so that no one would be able to buy and off-the-shelf part that fits in place of theirs
03:13 PM roycroft: we have, in the american customary system, nc, nf, and nef standard threads, in addition to some defined "special threads"
03:13 PM roycroft: the standard ones are national coarse, national fine, and national extra fine
03:13 PM djdelorie: plus bolt threads are different than pipe threads
03:13 PM roycroft: which, i should think, would be roughly equivalent to m10-1.5, m10-1.25, and m10-1.0
03:14 PM enleth: I'm pretty sure the standards committee only included M9 in the table as a "shit, someone's going to do it, so let's give them a guideline so it's not a *totally* random thread form"
03:14 PM enleth: and I was asked to make an adapter for this airsoft thing, so I bought that tap
03:14 PM roycroft: and i'm pretty sure i have all three of those m10 taps
03:15 PM roycroft: but i have a lot of weird tap sizes
03:15 PM enleth: as soon as I get a job that needs an M7 and M11, I'll be able to say that, as far as metric threads go, I've seen it all
03:15 PM roycroft: i have a 9/16"-24 tap, which nobody thinks exists
03:15 PM enleth: oh, there's a left-handed M3.5 in the drawer somewhere
03:15 PM roycroft: but it's the thread size for fender amp indicator jewels
03:16 PM roycroft: i've used it a fair amount, because i like using those jewels in my machines and control panels
03:17 PM roycroft: and then there is horology
03:17 PM enleth: roycroft: sounds like a reasonable diameter and pitch for a panel mount indicator cover, to be honest - over here they often use threads like M20x0.75, similar proportions
03:18 PM enleth: molded in plastic, more often than not, so I've never needed a tap
03:18 PM roycroft: it is the appropriate thread pitch for that application
03:18 PM roycroft: the indicator holders are generally rather think as are the jewel holders
03:19 PM roycroft: you don't want to cut deep, coarse threads into something delicate like that
03:19 PM enleth: I do have M20x1, though, because that's what KUKA used for calibration tool attachment points on their robots
03:19 PM roycroft: but it is still a rather odd size, compared to what is commonly done
03:19 PM enleth: that's a precision assembly, so it makes sense
03:20 PM enleth: anyway, I'll have to look into retapping those damn blocks
03:20 PM enleth: I hope they did a shit job hardening them
03:21 PM djdelorie: and a good job hardening the taps :-)
03:22 PM roycroft: those blocks usually have alternating plain and tapped holes
03:22 PM roycroft: you might try drilling out one of the plain holes for a test
03:22 PM roycroft: in fact, if you tapped all the plain holes to m10 and left the others as they are, you would have a proper mongrel
03:23 PM enleth: roycroft: that is precisely what I intend to do, as the plain holes are just that: plain, no sign of being reamed or ground for an actual dowel pin
03:23 PM roycroft: yup
03:23 PM roycroft: they are intended as through holes
03:23 PM roycroft: not precise in any way
03:24 PM enleth: roycroft: oh hell no, that would just be a cursed thing that brings woe and anguish upon anyone trying to use it
03:24 PM enleth: telling M10 and 3/8-16 apart in a tapped hole is possible, but only upon close inspection
03:25 PM roycroft: i usually just insert a fastener in it
03:25 PM roycroft: if i get three clean turns before it binds i know i've used the right flavor
03:25 PM roycroft: er, more than three
03:26 PM roycroft: on the cabinet below my wall of fasteners i have some thread checkers
03:26 PM enleth: sure, if you have *a* tapped hole that you need to identify, that works
03:26 PM roycroft: so when i have a fastener with some unknown thread it's quick to identify
03:26 PM enleth: but a whole block of them in a grid, that you intend to use for fixturing?
03:27 PM roycroft: https://www.amazon.com//dp/B00OM1HUJ2
03:27 PM roycroft: that is what i have
03:27 PM enleth: that block would be heading towards the scrap bucket fast enough to cause sonic boom
03:27 PM roycroft: it's a lot more handy than pulling out a dial caliper and a couple thread gages
03:27 PM enleth: the very first time anyone tried to use it
03:28 PM roycroft: look at it this way
03:28 PM roycroft: it would probably never get borrowed or stolen
03:28 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
03:29 PM enleth: if it did get stolen, I'd expect to find it next day, on the floor, in a pile of broken glass by a smashed in window, with a "FUCK YOU" note attached
03:30 PM roycroft: aah
03:30 PM roycroft: so go ahead
03:30 PM roycroft: make them
03:31 PM roycroft: and then ship them to ukraine
03:31 PM roycroft: they would be appreciated there
03:31 PM roycroft: anything you can throw at a tank or a russian conscript would be apprciated
03:32 PM roycroft: especially if you can attach a note to it like that
03:35 PM enleth: they have several thousand NLAW launchers for that
03:35 PM enleth: no need for a note, one look at a russian tank afterwards is enough to figure out what the note would have been
03:39 PM roycroft: i don't know the ukranian people very well, but my sense, based on recent events, is that they delight in saying "fuck you" to russians, and embrace every opportunity to do so
03:40 PM roycroft: and i fully support them in that endeavor
04:13 PM * roycroft just found an old version of the vpn software on one of his other firewalls, and hopes that it still works with the current build of windows 10
04:14 PM * Tom_L snickers a bit
04:14 PM roycroft: it's legitimate
04:14 PM roycroft: but it's a couple years old
04:14 PM Tom_L: windows 10? pls
04:14 PM roycroft: the sad thing is, i have to purchase an ssl certificate for the firewall in order to provide the vpn software
04:15 PM roycroft: the software is a cisco bundle that i load onto the firewall, and users then make a web connection to the firewall to download the software
04:15 PM Tom_L: it's a heap of code that keeps ppl employed and their company looking over your shoulder
04:15 PM roycroft: i honestly do not know why anyone uses windows
04:16 PM roycroft: but people do, and i have to deal with that reality
04:16 PM Tom_L: everything else is either 2/3 done or proprietary
04:16 PM roycroft: it took me less than five minutes to configure the firewall to accept vpn client connections
04:16 PM roycroft: it took maybe a minute and a half to configure a mac to connect to it
04:16 PM roycroft: i've spent most of the day today trying to get windows to connect to it
04:17 PM roycroft: and the story is similar whenever i'm doing something that involves windows
04:17 PM roycroft: in fairness, i think it takes more like 6 minutes to configure a linux machine to talk to the vpn
04:18 PM roycroft: so not everything is as easy as with a mac
04:18 PM Tom_L: i haven't had that much problem with 7
04:18 PM XXCoder: last time I used vpn was in 2010 something lol
04:18 PM roycroft: i'm just waiting to get this all working, and have someone tell me they're using windows 11 now, and that windows 11 won't work with the firewall
04:19 PM * roycroft uses a vpn daily
04:19 PM Tom_L: it's like a video game.. you just gonna hunt for all the keys to it
04:19 PM roycroft: but now i get to wait
04:20 PM roycroft: i'm ready to finish things on the firewall side, but i have to buy an ssl certificate, and i need the executive director to authorize that
04:20 PM roycroft: even though it's only $25
04:20 PM roycroft: she is the one who is in the big hurry to get this all going, but she is the one who is not repsonding to my urgent email about the certificate
04:20 PM roycroft: oh well, i guess i'll just move on to other things until she gets around to emailing me
04:27 PM Tom_L: that or just sit there refreshing your email and explain to her how urgent it wa
04:28 PM Tom_L: s
04:28 PM roycroft: moving on to other things seems more productive and less annoying
06:09 PM * roycroft is getting bored watching his firewall go !!!!!!!!!! while downloading a 72MB image from what's turning out to be a very slow server
06:09 PM roycroft: it's been about 2 hours now, since it started
06:10 PM roycroft: and i haven't counted every !, so i have no idea how much longer it's going to take
06:46 PM unreal is now known as _unreal_
06:55 PM roycroft: 9321.90 seconds to transfer the 72MB file
06:57 PM Tom_L: for an average download speed of ... slow
07:04 PM roycroft: it was tftp
07:04 PM Tom_L: sure it wasn't sliding windows kermit?
07:04 PM roycroft: and on ciscos that is always really slow, because the cisco device checksums every packet as it is received
08:37 PM skunkworks: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dcn5TLf3oog9kG6C6
08:45 PM XXCoder: wow big lathe
08:46 PM skunkworks: I don't remember what it spins.. 30 some inches? gap bed
08:50 PM XXCoder: nice
08:50 PM XXCoder: rebuilding it into cnc lathe?
10:02 PM skunkworks: XXCoder: more of a cheap quick conversion...
10:02 PM XXCoder: cool :)
10:44 PM roycroft: it's just hard to believe that the russians attacked the biggest nuclear plant in europe
10:44 PM XXCoder: I just hope it doesnt go up
10:44 PM roycroft: i'm reading reports from multiple sources, and still finding it hard to believe
11:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roycroft: yeah, fires at the reactor site are out, was watching the stream Live earlier
11:37 PM roycroft: yes, but it could have gone the other way so easily
11:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUJIIR9vT0k
11:39 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i was wondering if they really have a scorched earth policy
11:39 PM roycroft: i don't know if "they" do
11:39 PM CaptHindsight[m]: > 1,000 years
11:39 PM roycroft: but it may well be that putin does
11:40 PM XXCoder: wonder if putin is in that "im dying, im taking world out with me"
11:40 PM roycroft: some are speculating that
11:40 PM roycroft: and i'm not talking about media pundits
11:40 PM roycroft: scholars/intelligence folks who have studied him for years are saying that
11:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: my dad left Ukraine in '45, always said that you can "never trust the Russians", it's been a family motto for decades
11:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: got away to the west, since he was considered disposable by the Soviets upon his return after the war ended
11:44 PM roycroft: i never have
11:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I think that the west could have done more with Russia in the 90's after the USSR fell and before Putin came into power
11:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just have to deal with them now
11:46 PM roycroft: we were too busy "globalizing"
11:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 20 years of kicking the can got us here
11:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yeah, another issue that we will have to deal with
11:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: China is watching this all very closely