#linuxcnc Logs

Feb 12 2022

#linuxcnc Calendar

02:44 AM randy: morning
03:10 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
08:30 AM Tom_L: 17°F
08:51 AM JT-Shop: 31°F
09:14 AM t4nk_freenode: 'afternoon
09:19 AM perry_j1987: mornin
10:55 AM perry_j1987: anyone know how to add g43 to tool changes in the linuxcnc turning postprocessor for fusion 360
11:05 AM Tom_L: https://www.autodesk.com/products/fusion-360/blog/a-quick-introduction-to-editing-post-processors/
11:11 AM Tom_L: https://github.com/vilts/linuxcnc-f360
11:11 AM Tom_L: you could look at that one
11:11 AM Tom_L: i'm not good at f360 post but it looks like G43 might be there
11:21 AM Tom_L: ~line 378
11:25 AM perry_j1987: hmm why is mine not outputting it then
11:27 AM Tom_L: sry i don't do f360
11:28 AM perry_j1987: sometimes i think your lucky Tom_L haha
11:28 AM Tom_L: no, i looked at it and decided it wasn't ready for me yet
11:28 AM Tom_L: and i've got a cad cam already
11:30 AM perry_j1987: i do really like fusion 360 as a whole
11:30 AM perry_j1987: very comfortable in the environment
11:32 AM Tom_L: i'm sure if i spend any time with it i would get used to it but i still think it has things that could use improvement
12:37 PM XXCoder: roycroft: just watched clickspring video. nice indeed.
01:27 PM XXCoder: man blondihacks is such a great channel
02:00 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L, this is how I solved the geometry for possible ID/OD from the segments https://gnipsel.com/images/wood-working/wedge-sled/polygon.jpg
02:34 PM unterhaus: XXCoder, my current theory about my printer is that I cooked some filament in the hotend because I didn't know any better
02:34 PM perry_j1987: cooked it?
02:34 PM unterhaus: yes, cooked it
02:34 PM XXCoder: might be it, or maybe bits left over from last user. I had to do cold pulls fw times to clean mine out
02:35 PM perry_j1987: if your gunna do that you should get some of that protopasta pla with bacon bits infused lol
02:35 PM unterhaus: what's a cold pull
02:35 PM perry_j1987: you heat it up
02:35 PM perry_j1987: let it cool down below the glass temp of your filament and yank on the filament to pull the plug out
02:35 PM unterhaus: that works?
02:35 PM XXCoder: yep.
02:35 PM perry_j1987: can bond to the carbon and crystalized bits and pull them out
02:36 PM perry_j1987: its fairly common needing to do it on all metal hotends
02:36 PM unterhaus: so about what temp?
02:36 PM unterhaus: for pla
02:36 PM XXCoder: TG of pla is around 40c
02:37 PM XXCoder: well higher than that a bit, 45-50c I meant.
02:38 PM unterhaus: is it critical what temp I pull it at?
02:38 PM XXCoder: yeah around close to TG
02:38 PM unterhaus: thanks
02:38 PM unterhaus: the first two prints I did were fine
02:38 PM unterhaus: then the third was not good
02:39 PM XXCoder: I do it little bit differently, heat it to low temperate (but well above TG) and push filament down, and as soon as you feel it smoosh, pull it up
02:39 PM XXCoder: less effective, but much faster.
02:39 PM XXCoder: try to use different color pla so you know when its all clean
02:39 PM unterhaus: that's a good idea
02:40 PM XXCoder: best would be nylon. it grabs very well on derbis and stuff
02:42 PM perry_j1987: i didnt know htat about nylon
02:42 PM XXCoder: https://i.all3dp.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/04115326/cold_pull_results.jpg
02:42 PM XXCoder: check how it cleans up, and last ones have shape of nozzle inside
02:42 PM XXCoder: thats when you clean its done
02:43 PM perry_j1987: hmm im setting up a new box with the new linuxcnc
02:43 PM perry_j1987: trying to find power options
02:43 PM perry_j1987: so it doesnt put the thing to lock screen so quick
02:43 PM unterhaus: I was thinking white would work well
02:43 PM unterhaus: I thought there was a forum discussion about lock screens
02:44 PM perry_j1987: i'd prefer no lock screen on cnc machine
02:44 PM perry_j1987: i dont want it doing that at all lol
02:44 PM unterhaus: yeah, I prefer no lock screens on anything
02:44 PM unterhaus: this computer never goes to lock screen because the driver doesn't recover well
02:44 PM unterhaus: I've gotten used to it
02:45 PM perry_j1987: hmm
02:45 PM perry_j1987: tommylight claims its been disabled in the ISO back in 2020
02:45 PM perry_j1987: https://www.forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/40379-how-to-disable-screen-lock-in-linuxcnc-debian-buster
02:45 PM perry_j1987: i just downloaded this ISO last night and its still there
02:47 PM unterhaus: that was my experience too
02:53 PM unterhaus: I'm always surprised there are people that decide they are going to write a new lockscreen program
02:53 PM unterhaus: and then there are other people that decide the old lockscreen needs to be replaced
02:56 PM perry_j1987: what do you mean
02:58 PM XXCoder: I replace mine with xscreensaver
02:58 PM perry_j1987: do screensavers affect realtime system much?
02:59 PM XXCoder: dunno, but on linuxcnc systems I dont use screensaver
02:59 PM XXCoder: just blank and no screen lock
02:59 PM XXCoder: sorry was thinking my regular pc heh
02:59 PM perry_j1987: ya blank is better so you dont cook the screens
03:07 PM perry_j1987: got a new desktop in the shop that i threw a couple pcie parport cards in
03:07 PM perry_j1987: going to try to have one desktop running that has both the 6040 and mini lathe plugged into without having to swap cords
03:07 PM perry_j1987: and without having to have multiple computers running since i only run one machine at a time anyways
03:08 PM perry_j1987: its just about finished updating now over cell phone hotspot ugh heh
03:24 PM unterhaus: can you get a bacon flavored screen for when you cook it?
03:25 PM unterhaus: I wouldn't want a screensaver to come on when a machine is running
03:28 PM unterhaus: XXCoder, does xscreensaver suspend processes, or just blank screen
03:29 PM unterhaus: there are 15 options for screen savers on debian
03:30 PM XXCoder: play effects for while, then power savings, if any, turns it off
03:30 PM XXCoder: honestly for linuxcnc I would solely use screen off setting only
03:31 PM unterhaus: yeah, in any other use case I would want it to shut things down, at least a little
03:35 PM unterhaus: I managed to remove the build surface on my printer after the last bad print
03:35 PM unterhaus: easier than I thought. Maybe too easy
03:36 PM XXCoder: it should be just sticked on
03:38 PM unterhaus: when you replaced yours, did you get a new adhesive sheet?
03:38 PM XXCoder: I bought pei sheet and cut it to fit
03:39 PM XXCoder: no way to buy size that fits that printer
03:45 PM unterhaus: was the new sheet sticky backed?
03:45 PM XXCoder: yeah
03:45 PM perry_j1987: hmm so got a spare desktop now with two pcie paralle port cards in it
03:45 PM perry_j1987: now to get each configured for the mill and the lathe
03:52 PM perry_j1987: there we go got them both recognized
03:52 PM perry_j1987: now to start updating the configs for the new linuxcnc
03:55 PM perry_j1987: there we go axis fires up on both machines now
03:55 PM perry_j1987: this is going to be nice! heh
04:07 PM unterhaus: I guess the sheet I bought is a little thicker than the original build surface
04:07 PM perry_j1987: wish me luck
04:07 PM perry_j1987: going to try and get this whb04b-4 wireless pendant working
04:12 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, kindof the inverse of what i started to do
04:20 PM perry_j1987: its working
04:42 PM JT-Shop: there is an error on one description in that photo that I've corrected
04:56 PM Tom_L: i'm still working on the other one. it involves things i haven't done in catia yet so it's taking a bit longer
05:10 PM JT-Shop: https://semo.craigslist.org/tls/d/poplar-bluff-autoquip-series-35-scissor/7424338769.html
05:11 PM Tom_L: thought you listed that already
05:11 PM JT-Shop: I had a girl from a non-profit horse care place in Perryville MO contact me and asked if I had a cheaper one with 2000 pound
05:11 PM Tom_L: gawd my catia is rusty..
05:11 PM unterhaus:
05:11 PM unterhaus:
05:11 PM unterhaus: I'm moving my bridgeport, should I put it into the corner
05:12 PM JT-Shop: she said it was over her budget... so I asked her what is your budget... she said $1500
05:12 PM unterhaus: diagonally?
05:12 PM unterhaus: wtheck was that
05:12 PM Tom_L: wtf bbq
05:12 PM unterhaus: maybe I have a key stuck
05:12 PM Tom_L: you think it might be the space bar?
05:13 PM JT-Shop: I told her I'd take $1500 plus a stick of sweet baloney from Stonies
05:13 PM Tom_L: heh
05:16 PM unterhaus: if it was the spacebar, it's unstuck now
05:16 PM Tom_L: i noticed :)
05:17 PM Tom_L: thing about these things is you don't know if all the steps are right until the very end
05:17 PM unterhaus: someone on the internet says to put the bridgeport on its side for better rigidity
05:18 PM unterhaus: consensus is that if all you have is a corner, put it in the corner
05:21 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, did you upload the fix? i refreshed..
05:21 PM JT-Shop: no, I will in a few
05:24 PM JT-Shop: ok
05:26 PM unreal: ok what a long miserable day. had to work today.... got my trailer from the storage place to the house
05:26 PM unreal: NOW I finally have access to the shit in it so I can sell the shit I've been wanting to get rid of....
05:26 PM unreal: can get my trailer fixed up. AGAIN....
05:26 PM unreal: that storage place really fucked my tailer up
05:26 PM unreal is now known as _unreal_
05:26 PM _unreal_: and I mean bad
05:27 PM _unreal_: ripped off the front stand wheel thing.
05:27 PM _unreal_: fucked up the wiring
05:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: do they say which side to put it on?
05:29 PM unterhaus: internet is quiet about which side
05:30 PM unterhaus: I'll just have to flip it back and forth to see which side is better
05:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: every way except maybe on its back will get in the way of the handles
05:31 PM unterhaus: cnc only, no handles
05:31 PM unterhaus: except the knee, which is removable
05:31 PM unterhaus: lowering the table and moving it back is going to be tedious
05:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and even they it tends to fall to one side or the other, I have a hard time getting it to balance just right
05:33 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe if you mount the base to a wall?
05:35 PM unterhaus: don't want to collapse the basement wall, mill ways almost 3 tons
05:35 PM unterhaus: weighs
05:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.instructables.com/Build-a-Large-Space-Saving-CNC-Router-for-Under-60/
05:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://buildyourcnc.com/CNCMachineKits.aspx
05:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://community.carbide3d.com/t/pneumatic-wall-mounted-cnc-table-build/18047
05:56 PM JT-Shop: hmm I think I've identified a large chunk of wood I have as Cocuswood
05:56 PM JT-Shop: roycroft, do you know anything about that species
06:06 PM perry_j1987: hmm is there a linuxcnc option to not turn off spindle during tool changes
06:06 PM perry_j1987: dont want the lathe to turn spindle off during tool changes
06:07 PM Tom_L: remap M6?
06:11 PM perry_j1987: oh theres TOOL_CHANGE_WITH_SPINDLE_ON = 1 option
06:11 PM perry_j1987: lets try this
06:12 PM Tom_L: add that to the ini [EMCIO] section
06:36 PM t4nk_freenode: *sigh* ... all my bearings are fitted into the holders
06:37 PM t4nk_freenode: couldn't get myself to fit them onto the machine yet
06:38 PM t4nk_freenode: got one last slight problem to overcome... since I tried to make them drop-in replacements... one bearing sticks out slightly on a side that's supposed to be flush
06:39 PM t4nk_freenode: just a little, but some material needs to be taken out of the boards they sit on
06:39 PM t4nk_freenode: :|
06:40 PM t4nk_freenode: if I want to do it the right way... I'll need to take the whole darned machine apart
06:42 PM t4nk_freenode: if I do it the wrong way.. I probably can't reach the spots too well
06:42 PM t4nk_freenode: pfffff, either way, it's gonna take some doing still
06:44 PM t4nk_freenode: I'll leave it till another day
07:01 PM unterhaus: i wish it was easier to add braking resistors to my lathe vfd, I would really like to have them
07:02 PM roycroft: none of my vfds will handle them
07:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgq0tIDM19I
07:02 PM unterhaus: I almost always shut it off when changing tools
07:02 PM roycroft: it's not really been an issue for me
07:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I forget who here was into sewing machines
07:02 PM roycroft: i thought it might, and even bought a braking resistor, which i still have laying around
07:02 PM unterhaus: I watched some people with them on utube and now I have braking resistor envy
07:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: a few years ago someone posted their CNC sewing machine here
07:03 PM roycroft: my belt grinder is where i thought it would be especially useful
07:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: forgot to save the link
07:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: anyone recall?
07:03 PM roycroft: but i found i can spin it down to 0 rpm without a braking resistor, and that has been good enough for me
07:03 PM Tom_L: log search :)
07:04 PM roycroft: capthindsight: i remember someone talking about sewing machines a while back, but i do not remember who
07:04 PM unterhaus: Cap'n, sounds familiar, no idea who
07:04 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight[m], would that be freenode days still?
07:04 PM unterhaus: my lathe has a big gearbox and it takes quite a while to spin down
07:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Tom_L: yeah was well into the freenode years
07:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://youtu.be/GjXK5mgPUZo?t=26
07:05 PM unterhaus: I have wondered if it's possible to replace the motor nowadays and skip the gearbox
07:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sure, few HP BLDC spindle motor
07:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or AC servo
07:09 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight[m], looking for something specific?
07:09 PM Tom_L: https://www.consew.com/list/machine-stands/servo-motors
07:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Tom_L: just wanted to see his videos again
07:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: oh unterhouse is just asking about lathe spindle motors
07:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i have a gazillion sources for my motors
07:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: thanks though
07:10 PM Tom_L: 18 23:37:00 <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5BS3v9BsUQ Retrofitted Nowe Sterowanie Hauser CNC Sewing Machine SNA 3260 LinuxCNC by Toromatic
07:11 PM Tom_L: that?
07:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Tom_L: are your IRC archives easily searched?
07:11 PM Tom_L: no not really
07:11 PM Tom_L: got that from my local archives
07:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: forgot about yours, thanks!
07:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: was in Polish, yeah, thanks
07:13 PM Tom_L: :)
07:13 PM Tom_L: now tell me why circular array isn't working right
07:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I want to use LCNC to build a 3d knitting machine for CF
07:16 PM unterhaus: i found the thread about adding braking to my vfd, there was a lot of unpleasantness in there
07:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe once the HAL<-> ROS is done
07:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: some are as easy as adding a lightbulb to two terminals on the VFD
07:17 PM Tom_L: unterhaus, mine has brake resistors but i don't slam them on hard
07:17 PM unterhaus: yeah, I have some of those
07:17 PM roycroft: will you have an annunciator connected to it that will say "knit one, purl two" while it's working?
07:18 PM unterhaus: the huanyangs either have it or it's an electronics project to add them
07:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roycroft: and associated chit-chat
07:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe there should be an open source VFD project
07:18 PM roycroft: just about any huanyang vfd that you purchase will not have the braking resistor circuitry
07:19 PM roycroft: if you want that you're instructed to contact huanyang and they will quote you on a unit with that circuitry
07:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but with components so difficult to source right now it would be difficult
07:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's just a fancy AC to AC PWM supply
07:19 PM roycroft: the pcbs in the huanyang vfds are ready for the circuitry, so it can be added
07:20 PM roycroft: but not after the fact by huanyang
07:20 PM roycroft: and if you do it yourself you void your warranty, of course
07:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: not even that fancy
07:21 PM roycroft: capthindsight: an open source vfd might be a fun project, but i doubt one could build one for less money than a huanyang costs
07:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://github.com/catphish/stm32_vfd
07:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yah gottah pay for open source
07:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: use the same micro for the controller, like a blue pill
07:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NocvqFzyv8
07:24 PM unterhaus: a stmbl would almost drive my lathe motor
07:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-xRPjXhqzk&t=0s
07:25 PM unterhaus: problem is they discontinued the module with enough amps to do it
07:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: did that new STMBL version ever come out with the updated power out section?
07:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the old design had a part that went EOL
07:26 PM unterhaus: I haven't been keeping track
07:27 PM unterhaus: they said they had a design that used discretes
07:29 PM unterhaus: they were driving some relatively large motors with the original
07:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: from some threads I see it is version5 (V5)
07:29 PM roycroft: i'm not a fan of the belt drive system on my lathe
07:30 PM roycroft: i tend to turn at the wrong speed sometimes because i don't want to get into it and move the belt around
07:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I think Andy built several but i don't recall which version
07:30 PM roycroft: i really am thinking of putting a 3 phase motor and a vfd on it
07:31 PM roycroft: i'd still be able to use the back gear, so i would have two speed ranges
07:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: heh I have the variable pulleys and 3-phase motor on a lathe
07:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just had to bleed the system and it just works
07:33 PM CaptHindsight[m]: won't bother converting since it's a 60 year old Clausing
07:34 PM perry_j1987: What was it i have to comment out to have axis not prompt for tool changes?
07:36 PM Tom_L: manualtoolchange?
07:37 PM Tom_L: i dunno for sure
07:38 PM Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man1/hal_manualtoolchange.1.html
07:38 PM perry_j1987: lets give this a try
07:41 PM unterhaus: Andy had the IRAMS module ones built
07:41 PM unterhaus: I see no evidence of a newer board, of course you cant get STM's, so it's moot
07:42 PM perry_j1987: hmm now it just doesnt load any tool
07:48 PM perry_j1987: got it
07:48 PM perry_j1987: there's a toggle in stepconf for it
07:48 PM Tom_L: mmm
07:48 PM Tom_L: but what did it actually change?
07:49 PM perry_j1987: need to switch the homing to home z before x now
07:49 PM perry_j1987: it changed it from a manual tool change to a loop and edited the change to changed to disable it it appears
07:49 PM Tom_L: that's a simple edit
07:49 PM perry_j1987: ya and now its added to my stepconf :)
07:50 PM perry_j1987: so i wont have to re-edit it each time i open stepconf
07:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: you buy boards with stm32's on them, unsolder, clean, reflash etc
07:53 PM unterhaus: what boards?
07:53 PM perry_j1987: ty
07:54 PM * roycroft wonders what mental disorder causes "sovereign citizenship", and if we should make curing it a priority
07:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000138305460.html for example
07:56 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roycroft: please use it in a sentence :)
07:59 PM roycroft: "license and registration please"
07:59 PM roycroft: "i am a sovereign citizen, and i am not driving - i am travelling. therefore i am not required to have a driver's license"
08:00 PM roycroft: "how do you plead?"
08:00 PM roycroft: "you are making charges against a person. as a sovereign citizen, i am appearing today as an individual, not a person, therefore i cannot make a plea"
08:00 PM roycroft: "is your name john smith?"
08:01 PM roycroft: "i am appearing as the individual john smith, but not as the person john smith"
08:01 PM roycroft: does that clarify things at akk?
08:01 PM roycroft: all
08:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: old arguments, they still lock you up anyway
08:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just beacuse
08:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: even more boot lickers these days
08:03 PM roycroft: "is this a maritime court? as a sovereign citizen, i am only subject to maritime law, and the only law enforcement that is valid is the county sheriff. if this is a maritime court, then the flag you display must have gold fringe around the edges"
08:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yes, your honer, he needed shootin
08:04 PM roycroft: these people actually make those arguments
08:04 PM roycroft: and are always shocked that they are not taken seriously
08:04 PM roycroft: it has all the signs of a mental disorder
08:04 PM roycroft: which is why i asked the question in the first place
08:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: well a person that sounds very confident told them so
08:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: no, just normal stupid
08:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: theres uh the law, and thin theres the law
08:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: well the argument might work if you are wealthy enough
08:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: in our new-ish 2-3 tier legal system
08:25 PM roycroft: there's nothing new about our legal system
08:26 PM roycroft: rich people have always been subject to different laws/justice than not rich people
08:26 PM roycroft: the same with melanin-abundant people vs. melanin-deficient people
08:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: why are some vanilla ice creams more yellow than others?
08:27 PM roycroft: why is vanilla considered a "white" color, when vanilla beans are dark brown?
08:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the current version in my freezer also stays pretty soft even at -25C
08:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: https://stm32-base.org/boards/STM32F103C8T6-Blue-Pill.html still pretty easy to get
08:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and the stm32f4xx version https://www.adafruit.com/product/4877
08:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 2 years ago it was only $3ea https://www.cnx-software.com/2019/12/24/stm32-black-pill-board-features-stm32f4-cortex-m4-mcu-optional-spi-flash/
08:33 PM roycroft: the yellow usually comes from egg yolks
08:33 PM roycroft: some styles of ice cream are more eggy than others
08:34 PM roycroft: and the version that stays soft at -25 must have radioactive eggs in it
08:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: https://www.gigadevice.com/products/microcontrollers/gd32/ makes stm32 almost clones
08:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://smdprutser.nl/blog/stm32f103-vs-gd32f103/
08:54 PM Rhine_Labs: Pretty https://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Sencore-SC3100-Auto-Tracker-Probes-Manual-Schematics-1024x576.jpg
09:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: huh Sencore is still in business
09:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: GM has discontinued many if not all their high perf crate engines
09:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1133661_chevrolet-discontinued-the-zr1-s-755-hp-lt5-crate-engine
09:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: wonder if there will be 2nd sources for blocks and heads
09:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Rail grinder train https://imgur.com/gallery/R5a26WN
09:13 PM Tom_L: will it sharpen my cutters too?
09:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: as long as they are track shaped
09:13 PM Tom_L: been fighting a circular pattern problem in catia for a while..
09:13 PM Tom_L: can't figure it out
09:14 PM Tom_L: seems to only want to enable the icon on a solid, not a sketch element
09:15 PM Tom_L: should be a simple thing..
09:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I have faith in you to solve this problem independently
09:50 PM roycroft: faith is a pretty flower that smells bad
09:55 PM Tom_L: sw does it like it should
10:01 PM roycroft: i'm close to making a deal on that sw license, btw
10:02 PM roycroft: there's a good chance i'll be upgrading within the next few days