#linuxcnc Logs

Jan 31 2022

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:02 AM Bleepshop: Hmmm... The part # goes nowhere and the connector is a FRC with a tiny pitch and is slightly narrower than a Pi3B camera connector.
12:27 AM t4nk_freenode: oh my goodness, that guy in the video is barely alive
12:27 AM t4nk_freenode: lol
12:27 AM t4nk_freenode: how energetic
12:27 AM t4nk_freenode: I was just looking for some cheap microscope or cam myself
12:31 AM Bleepshop: t4nk_freenode: It'd be $9.99 with shipping if I didn't have a working one in my hand. LOL
12:33 AM Bleepshop: If anybody in the US wants to reverse engineer a camera interface from a working product I've got some 8mm^2 pinhole lens units in old alarm control panels.
12:40 AM t4nk_freenode: ... about the cheapest usb thingy on ali: "This is a high-resolution electron microscope"
12:40 AM t4nk_freenode: lol
12:41 AM t4nk_freenode: https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/H0ba9231ba8594faebf54ba40e6fa16eb4.jpg ... showing friggin DNA STRANDS
12:41 AM t4nk_freenode: lol
12:41 AM XXCoder: LOL
12:41 AM XXCoder: way too strong a lie
01:18 AM t4nk_freenode: darn-it.. I'd almost buy one, but the video is only 640x480... I'm quite sure I'll suffer trauma from that if I use it to solder
01:33 AM t4nk_freenode: well, heh... keyboard seems fixed
01:34 AM t4nk_freenode: oh, hang on, I can type on it right here ;)
01:34 AM t4nk_freenode: the pause/break button doesn't seem to do anything, but that's the only one
01:44 AM t4nk_freenode: I'll have another look in a bit, then give it a good clean... and I'm good to go
01:44 AM t4nk_freenode: thing is... now it seems a bit heavy to type on it, I'd bought a keyboard at the dollar store... with flat keys
01:44 AM t4nk_freenode: and I've gotten used to that, but I could't get used to the darned layout
01:44 AM t4nk_freenode: oh yeah, I like it, I like it very much! :))
01:44 AM t4nk_freenode: -
01:44 AM t4nk_freenode: (that was my other keyboard :b )
01:49 AM Deejay: moin
03:42 AM randy: morning
03:54 AM t4nk_freenode: Loetmichel, so... it's a true convertible then... converted into a pile of junk :b
03:55 AM XXCoder: Loetmichel: talking about pile of rust, I saw a expensive car on sale for $10,000. it was literally rusty wheck. its valuable because it have a vin, so guy can just build new one and transfer vin to it
03:55 AM XXCoder: 10k for just vin
04:09 AM Loetmichel: XXCoder: basically yes
04:09 AM XXCoder: its some fancy sports car, when working well and clean, sells for 6 figures
04:09 AM Loetmichel: t4nk_freenode: well i paid 2900 eur for the car three years ago. its not like its a new pristine model ;)
04:10 AM Loetmichel: and i already looked it up: new (used) diff is about 400 eur. another few hundred for a change: all good.
04:10 AM Loetmichel: still have to get a rental for a bit i think
04:15 AM Loetmichel: *pfrrrrt* gut think i have a robust stomach... just ate a cupcake my wife made... noticed on the last bit that i forgot to remove the paper "cup" around it... :)
04:16 AM XXCoder: plenty of fiber in diet lol
04:16 AM Loetmichel: good thing
05:00 AM Tom_L: morning
05:01 AM Tom_L: 31°F hi 65°F
05:01 AM Tom_L: last nice day it seems
05:01 AM Tom_L: thur hi 1°F
05:51 AM JT-Cave: morning
06:38 AM miss0r: morning
06:39 AM miss0r: JT-Cave: I modified a generic chinesium ZVS driver to use as a charger in my coilgun project here. Now I need bigger fuses :) Apparently it blows a 30amp fuse within 1 second. BUT it has almost completed the charge at that point. So, I will just up it a bit, to a point where it can just barely manage :]
06:43 AM JT-Cave: what's a ZVS?
07:18 AM miss0r: JT-Cave: It stands for Zero Volt Switching. Its basically an oscilating mosfet driver you can use to generate alternating current. Mostly they are used for those small handheld induction heaters, but I use the output to drive a transformer to generate high voltage
07:22 AM JT-Cave: cool
07:25 AM JT-Cave: I've always wanted to play with electronics but lack the basic knowledge
07:27 AM XXCoder: same
08:41 AM miss0r: me too.. I use google :)
09:11 AM JT-Shop: even hosting has doubled
10:31 AM unterhaus: I wish I had a better connector to use inside an electronics cabinet.
10:32 AM unterhaus: 4 pin in this case
10:47 AM roycroft: i'm pondering power connectors for my stepper motors
10:47 AM roycroft: i'm thinking i'll probably use 2x2 molex connectors
10:47 AM unterhaus: I'm pondering the same thing and have no idea
10:47 AM roycroft: i'm talking about the motor end
10:48 AM roycroft: i don't want to hard wire them, in case i ever need to replace them
10:48 AM unterhaus: what are you using at the exit to the cabinet?
10:48 AM roycroft: i'm not certain yet
10:49 AM roycroft: maybe neutrik
10:49 AM unterhaus: I have used the circular connectors on robots and they worked okay
10:49 AM unterhaus: the ones that use molex pins
10:49 AM roycroft: they're designed for balanced audio signals, but andypugh uses them for his cnc machines and says they work fine
10:49 AM unterhaus: powercon?
10:50 AM roycroft: they're not designed as power connectors
10:50 AM unterhaus: I used those and I should have soldered them instead of using the screws
10:50 AM roycroft: but they can handle enough current
10:51 AM unterhaus: neutrik makes powercon and a similar non-power rated connector
10:51 AM unterhaus: is that what you are talking about?
10:51 AM roycroft: actually, there are some neutrik power connectors, but i don't think they make any 4 conductor ones
10:51 AM roycroft: and i'm not going to use two plugs/jacks on the chassis for each motor
10:52 AM roycroft: i have the parts i am interested in in a spreadsheet somewhere, but i'm not sure where it is right now
10:52 AM roycroft: i've actually started looking for it, as i am working on the bom for my machine
10:52 AM unterhaus: huh, I must have used the other ones, because it does look like powercon is only 3 pole
10:53 AM roycroft: i did this research a long time ago
10:53 AM unterhaus: or maybe I used the ground connection, which is separate
10:53 AM unterhaus: this was on brushless servos, so really only using 3 poles, hopefully
10:54 AM roycroft: speakon, i think, are what i was looking at
10:54 AM roycroft: it looks like many of the speakon connectors have been discontinued, though
10:55 AM roycroft: including the ones i
10:55 AM roycroft: am interested in
10:55 AM unterhaus: yeah, speakon probably
10:55 AM roycroft: oh, there is a replacement product now
10:55 AM roycroft: https://www.neutrik.us/en-us/product/nlt4fpxx-bag
10:55 AM unterhaus: what is it called, speakoff?
10:56 AM roycroft: 250vac 30a
10:56 AM roycroft: i think that works
10:56 AM unterhaus: maybe they got rid of the speakons because of the plastic housing
10:56 AM roycroft: even though there is this huge warning: "speakON is NOT to be used as an AC mains or power supply connector!"
10:57 AM roycroft: i was looking at the metal housing ones
10:57 AM roycroft: the discontinued ones had a silver/chrome metal housing
10:57 AM roycroft: the replacements are black
10:57 AM roycroft: which is much nicer, imo
10:57 AM roycroft: but these will be hidden inside my router table, so i'd have been fine with the silver ones
10:57 AM roycroft: or even orange or pink
10:58 AM roycroft: but i think the product i linked to above is what i'll probably use for steppers at the controller, with mating plugs, of course
10:59 AM unterhaus: they probably had to have that warning due to certifications
10:59 AM unterhaus: if you were making a commercial product, it would cause issues
10:59 AM roycroft: it may be that they're not safe for plugging/unplugging live loads
10:59 AM roycroft: which is fine
11:00 AM roycroft: because i would never do that
11:00 AM roycroft: i don't want to have to buy new gecko drives whenever i plug in or unplug a motor
11:01 AM roycroft: and while one should always plug a power cord into the load side before connecting it to the mains, people do the opposite all the time
11:02 AM roycroft: my band saw table is allegedly out for delivery
11:02 AM roycroft: i'll not hold my breath waiting for it
11:03 AM roycroft: and my sander is due to arrive tomorrow
11:03 AM roycroft: i'll be so happy when that arrives
11:04 AM roycroft: a week ago i was able to close my browser window for festoolrecon.com
11:04 AM roycroft: i've had a window open there with the check4change plugin refresing it every 30 seconds for years
11:04 AM roycroft: but nothing remains on my list
11:05 AM roycroft: i'd like to get a domino tool, but that's not in the budget for quite a while, and i get along fine without it
11:05 AM roycroft: even at the recon site pricing, a domino tool is going to cost clost to $1k
11:08 AM roycroft: those neutrix female chassis connectors are on 10 week backorder at mouser, and aren't carried by newark
11:09 AM roycroft: neutrik
11:09 AM roycroft: digi-key don't carry neutrik at all
11:10 AM roycroft: neutrik.us' distributor search shows zero stock anywhere
11:23 AM Bleepshop: Of course since the CNC had ancient 8-pin Jones Plugs pretty much anything is an upgrade. https://www.ebay.com/itm/372009771048?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=372009771048&targetid=4580496732614415&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=418233788&mkgroupid=1230353745471221&rlsatarget=pla-4580496732614415&abcId=9300542&merchantid=51291
11:31 AM roycroft: yeah, i don't mind that connector type per se, although it would be better if it were locking
11:31 AM roycroft: but i need chassis mount connectors on the controller side
11:31 AM roycroft: not inline
11:34 AM roycroft: i should go check my boxes of components i bought for my mill conversion
11:34 AM roycroft: i've already been repurposing components from that project
11:34 AM roycroft: and i may already have some neutrik connectors
11:34 AM roycroft: although if i do, i'd have three sets, and i need four for the router
11:37 AM roycroft: none in the boxes marked for that project
11:50 AM roycroft: i found some of the older version on ebay for a good price, so those are ordered
11:53 AM unterhaus: I guess jones plugs is what I used to call elco connectors, because I had some that were made by elco
11:53 AM unterhaus: still do
11:53 AM roycroft: those plugs match nicely with wire wrap panels
11:54 AM roycroft: the have that mid-century look
11:54 AM unterhaus: I bought them surplus in the early '80s, so yeah
11:55 AM roycroft: the housings look like they're made of bakelite
11:55 AM unterhaus: I might use a set inside my lathe control panel, they hold on pretty well
11:55 AM unterhaus: the ones I have are stamped sheet metal
11:56 AM unterhaus: I used a batch of them for the fatigue machine I built, sadly scrapped now
11:56 AM unterhaus: the main problem for panel mount is cutting the square hole
11:57 AM unterhaus: I used to have a lot more patience, and free access to a mill
11:57 AM roycroft: the neutrik chassis mount connectors require a round hole
11:57 AM unterhaus: forgot I built 2 fatigue machines
11:58 AM unterhaus: yeah, I'll have to go check which neutrik connectors I have, if they are 4 connectors I'll use those
11:58 AM unterhaus: the problem I had with them is on the cable side, their screw connection just doesn't work that well
11:58 AM unterhaus: I'll solder them
11:59 AM roycroft: i was looking for solder plugs, but they don't make any in the higher current series
11:59 AM roycroft: the ones i got are rated at 250vac 30a
11:59 AM roycroft: since my stepper motors will be <10a each that is more than fine
11:59 AM roycroft: and i'll be running them at 54v initially
11:59 AM roycroft: perhaps as much as 70v, if needed
12:00 PM roycroft: but nowhere near the rated voltage
12:02 PM andypugh: FWIW I actiually contacted Neutrik about using SpeakCON for 2-phase power (at 230V) and they said that it was up to me, but that they could see no problem with the idea.
12:03 PM andypugh: Sorry, that should say “3-phase power”. Thoigh for steppers it would be 2-phase, so I was accidentally correct.
12:03 PM unterhaus: a stepper and a speaker are pretty much the same thing. Just need to bolt the stepper to something that will resonate
12:03 PM andypugh: I am also using PowerCON for 300v DC, and it works fine unless you try to disconnect under power. Then it goes fiz-bang-melt....
12:04 PM roycroft: the molex 0.093" connectors are rated to 17a
12:05 PM roycroft: andypugh: i'm confident they'll work fine
12:05 PM roycroft: as i was saying earlier, it may be a matter of the way the connection is made - if you're connecting a live load there may be an arcing issue
12:05 PM unterhaus: what are the old hard drive connectors rated to? An 8" hard drive took a lot of power
12:06 PM unterhaus: I have the motor out of an IBM drive, it was 3 phase induction
12:06 PM andypugh: If you are using panel-mount Neutrik, you might find this handy: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4645638
12:07 PM unterhaus: electronics were all wire wrapped on very fancy gold plated wire wrap boards
12:07 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/183457255221
12:07 PM roycroft: those are the ones i just got
12:07 PM roycroft: which are discontinued - the replacement is rated to 40a, i believe
12:08 PM roycroft: and thanks - that nut holder might, indeed, come in handy
12:09 PM unterhaus: are there knockoffs? Someone has 10 packs for less
12:09 PM roycroft: yes, there are knockoffs
12:09 PM andypugh: Yes, there are knockoffs.
12:09 PM roycroft: read the listings carefully
12:09 PM roycroft: the genuine neutrik can be had for good prices
12:09 PM unterhaus: wonder how bad they are
12:09 PM roycroft: i would not risk a knockoff
12:10 PM unterhaus: I'm working on a knockoff-worthy project, if they function at all
12:10 PM roycroft: i paid $4.62 each for the ones i just bought
12:11 PM roycroft: and $6.24 for the plugs
12:11 PM roycroft: that's pretty cheap
12:11 PM unterhaus: better than whatever I paid mouser for mine
12:11 PM unterhaus: and then the shipping is always a shock
12:12 PM roycroft: they're about 3x as much from a standard distributor
12:12 PM roycroft: and yes, then there's shipping
12:12 PM unterhaus: I see the cheap speakons are upfront they are made by other than neutrik
12:12 PM roycroft: the ones i just bought have free shipping for both the plugs and the jacks
12:12 PM roycroft: most of them are
12:12 PM roycroft: but the ones on ebay that don't say do list china as the country of origin
12:13 PM unterhaus: which plugs did you buy?
12:13 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/152363679635
12:13 PM roycroft: and there plenty of those available
12:13 PM roycroft: i got the last lot of 4 of the jacks from that seller
12:15 PM Tom_L: roycroft, i used M16 connectors i think
12:15 PM Tom_L: https://www.mouser.com/c/connectors/circular-connectors/circular-metric-connectors/?thread%20size=M16
12:17 PM Tom_L: https://m.made-in-china.com/product/3pin-Screw-Type-Electrical-Aviation-Socket-M16-Connector-858432455.html
12:17 PM roycroft: i've used similar ones to those
12:17 PM roycroft: and i use aviation connectors all the time
12:17 PM Tom_L: nice heavy pin & securely connected
12:17 PM unterhaus: roycroft, have you recently bought cable for your steppers?
12:18 PM Tom_L: come n 2 to 8 pin i think
12:18 PM roycroft: not recently
12:18 PM roycroft: i'll need to, though
12:18 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Wiring/Wire2.jpg
12:18 PM roycroft: i bought cable for my mill conversion a few years ago, but i have nowhere near enough
12:18 PM Tom_L: get a roll of that
12:18 PM roycroft: the router is going to require much more
12:19 PM unterhaus: I have been spoiled for years, I need to figure out how to buy cable when it's my money
12:19 PM roycroft: and since the runs are longer, i'll probably want to use heavier gauge wire
12:19 PM roycroft: the motor cable wire for my mill is 18ga
12:19 PM roycroft: i'll probably use 16ga for the router
12:20 PM Tom_L: i started off using heavier wire and found it didn't work well with the gecko connectors
12:20 PM unterhaus: I used 16ga for my mill, so far I haven't melted it
12:20 PM roycroft: tom_l: i'm going to be using connectors on the controller
12:20 PM unterhaus: it's too hefty for what i'm doing right now
12:20 PM roycroft: so the heavy wire will just be from the outside of the controller box to the motors
12:20 PM roycroft: i can drop back to smaller gauge inside the controller
12:21 PM unterhaus: what's a good search term for 20ga 4 conductor with sheild on ebay
12:21 PM roycroft: which i normally do - the standard formulae for sizing power cables is derated because of the cable housing
12:21 PM roycroft: inside a chassis the wires can be smaller
12:22 PM unterhaus: or shield, rather
12:22 PM unterhaus: first hit is for silver plated, I think not
12:23 PM roycroft: try "stepper motor cable"
12:23 PM roycroft: https://www.mouser.com/c/connectors/circular-connectors/circular-metric-connect
12:23 PM roycroft: ack, sorry
12:23 PM Tom_L: https://www.ebay.com/itm/393276038513?hash=item5b91141d71:g:-3IAAOSwoWVgiarj
12:23 PM Tom_L: unterhaus,
12:23 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/255054299045
12:23 PM Tom_L: oh wait those are pairs
12:23 PM roycroft: that's what i meant to post
12:23 PM Tom_L: nevermind
12:27 PM unterhaus: that is a really annoying auction. The options should just be feet of wire and other stuff list separately
12:29 PM unterhaus: I see, the options where you can't read it all have connectors. Maybe
12:37 PM perry_j1987: mornin
12:42 PM roycroft: if you're talking about the link i posted, they have shielded and unshielded options
12:42 PM roycroft: it looks like the ones that are truncated have connectors
12:42 PM roycroft: but you want 4 conductor shielded cables
12:42 PM roycroft: those are listed clearly
12:42 PM roycroft: up to 100'
12:43 PM unterhaus: Yeah, I picked another option
12:44 PM unterhaus: I only saw 20 foot clearly described in the one you linked
12:44 PM unterhaus: I'm getting this https://www.ebay.com/itm/351744627477
12:46 PM roycroft: that looks like the same stuff, and a pretty good deal
12:47 PM Thorhian: It's not bad looking.
12:47 PM roycroft: 16/4 shielded cable is expensive
12:47 PM roycroft: it always has been, but it's really expensive now
12:48 PM unterhaus: have to buy it surplus
12:48 PM unterhaus: nowadays you are probably competing with companies though
12:48 PM roycroft: i'm not going to worry about it right now
12:48 PM roycroft: i haven't even calculated how much i need yet
12:48 PM Thorhian: I bought some 16/4 servo cable from automation direct that I bought last year just in case I'd need it for my build. Glad I bought it then.
12:48 PM roycroft: but some of the runs might be >8m
12:49 PM roycroft: i'm actually thinking about whether it makes sense for me to mount my control cabinet in the rear of the router base
12:49 PM Thorhian: That's a lot of cable lol.
12:49 PM roycroft: i was going to mount it in the front, for easier acces
12:50 PM roycroft: but i could save on some of the cable runs if i mount it in the rear
12:50 PM Thorhian: If you have runs that long then you kind of need thicker wires don't you, even if it is more expensive?
12:50 PM roycroft: yes, that's why i'm looking at 16ga instead of 18ga
12:50 PM roycroft: i almost need 14ga
12:50 PM Thorhian: What kind of motors are you running?
12:51 PM roycroft: nema 23 425oz-in
12:51 PM roycroft: if i mount the controller in the front, then i have a cable run of 2m to get to the back, 1m up to the top, 2m back to the front for when the gantry is in the front, 1/2m to the top of the gantry, and 1m to the far end of the x axis
12:51 PM Thorhian: So 3NM ones, just like mine.
12:52 PM roycroft: yes
12:52 PM roycroft: so not >8m
12:52 PM roycroft: but about 7m
12:52 PM roycroft: still pretty long
12:52 PM Thorhian: I'm born and raised in the USA but I still have a hard time dealing with imperial units outside of lengths and standard pounds lol.
12:53 PM roycroft: i can deal with both
12:53 PM roycroft: i eschew american customary units whenever possible
12:53 PM roycroft: not that they're inferior, but they are parochial
12:54 PM unterhaus: my family decided to eschew the leftovers of the curry I made the other night
12:54 PM unterhaus: so I don't have to worry about what to have for lunch
12:54 PM Thorhian: I find dealing with pound force and all of the units built upon them to be annoying to deal with, but when I learned the basics of physics everything was in SI units, so that's to be expected I suppose.
12:55 PM Rab: Anybody need a project base? https://swicoauctions.com/online/26/item/99023
12:55 PM Thorhian: Lol, I want that just to have a decent granite surface plate, even if I needed to get it lapped.
12:56 PM Rab: Wonder how radioactive that slab is.
12:56 PM Thorhian: Why do say that?
12:57 PM Rab: Well, it looks like pink granite, which is pretty chunky...the chunkier the granite, the more radioactive.
12:57 PM Rab: https://www.epa.gov/radiation/granite-countertops-and-radiation
12:57 PM Thorhian: Ah. All I know is that Pink Granite tends to be popular, and Starrett sells a lot of it.
12:58 PM unterhaus: someone was going to give me a granite plate that size, but the rigging cost made it a bad deal
12:58 PM Rab: I think I would "risk" it, if I had a way to move it and a place to store it.
12:58 PM unterhaus: it's not a serious amount of radiation. Don't go to sleep on it for a couple of years.
12:59 PM Rab: Our state capitol is made from pink granite: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-zuNCF5WYw2w/UzmOaTXQgvI/AAAAAAAAMN4/c1_OGA12t2o/s1600/2014.03.TXCapitol062.jpg
12:59 PM roycroft: that's a nice surface plate
12:59 PM roycroft: surface plates usually go for a song on auction
12:59 PM roycroft: size doesn't matter much when it comes to used surface plate prices
12:59 PM Rab: Yeah, it'll go cheap.
12:59 PM roycroft: you can buy a 12x18 for $40
01:00 PM roycroft: or a 24x36 for $125
01:00 PM unterhaus: it says it's $1000, which isn't cheap
01:00 PM roycroft: sometimes even bigger ones like 60x96 for less than $200
01:00 PM Thorhian: I just have a cheapy and tiny surface plate :/ It helped a lot building my machine, but having a bigger one would be very nice.
01:00 PM roycroft: the freight costs more than the product
01:00 PM unterhaus: aerotech gave me a 24"x36" plate and it's a pita to do anything with
01:00 PM roycroft: i have an 18x24 in my shop on a stand
01:01 PM roycroft: it's worked out to be a very nice size
01:01 PM Rab: When they used to hold live auctions, there was a massive cast iron surface plate with reinforcing ribs. Maybe hand-scraped. I don't think anybody even wanted it, might have piggybacked onto the next lot. That would make a hell of a CNC project base.
01:02 PM unterhaus: I tried to get my boss to give me a 12"x18" but he couldn't part with it
01:02 PM roycroft: i bought a 12x18 toolroom grade surface plate for a few dollars from some guy who got it at a storage unit auction
01:02 PM Thorhian: I just have a 6" x 18".
01:02 PM unterhaus: never seen a 3 legged mount on a surface plate before
01:03 PM roycroft: he had no idea what it was, and laughed that i even wanted it
01:03 PM unterhaus: 4 legs with a compliant mount works fine
01:03 PM roycroft: surface plates are always supposed to be supported at three points
01:03 PM roycroft: but not along the edges
01:03 PM unterhaus: one of us is a precision engineer
01:04 PM roycroft: usually you mount them about 1/4 of the way in
01:04 PM roycroft: 2 points in the back and 1 point in the front
01:04 PM roycroft: but yeah, the stands are usually 4 post
01:04 PM roycroft: that one looks about the right size, though
01:05 PM unterhaus: the giant plate at the lab i worked at has 6 legs, IIRC
01:05 PM roycroft: i wonder how chipped up the surface plate is from having the stand on top of it
01:05 PM roycroft: it looks like there may be pads under the legs
01:05 PM unterhaus: that tripod base appears to have rubber on the posts. I'm pretty sure it's upside-down
01:06 PM roycroft: if it's upside-down then it may have chips from the pallet nails
01:06 PM unterhaus: my plate is mounted on some rubber pads that have a pattern cast in them that makes them more compliant
01:06 PM unterhaus: I think the plate is right side up
01:07 PM roycroft: i think i'd want to inspect it before bidding on it
01:07 PM roycroft: but the one i have works fine for me
01:07 PM unterhaus: in my experience, they don't polish the undersides
01:08 PM roycroft: i've rarely had a use for a larger one
01:08 PM roycroft: and i certainly do not have room in my shop for a 24x36
01:08 PM unterhaus: unfortunately the 24x36 is in the garage
01:09 PM unterhaus: and it's not big enough to check bike frames all at once
01:10 PM unterhaus: that's why it hurt so much to turn down the 36 x 48
01:10 PM roycroft: my surface plate is grey, though
01:10 PM roycroft: it's not pretty like that one in the auction
01:10 PM roycroft: my little one is pink
01:12 PM unterhaus: when I got mine, aerotech was giving away a batch of granite. Some huge pieces, like 15"x18"x20 feet
01:13 PM unterhaus: I think they were for a large linear slide
01:13 PM unterhaus: get a few and make a retaining wall
02:52 PM perry_j1987: what usually goes out on VFDs when they pop
02:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mosfets, caps, braking resistors
02:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: protection diodes
02:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the weakest
02:57 PM perry_j1987: might keep this popped ac tech vfd around for a project some day
02:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: at least until 2023 when we can start getting parts again
02:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe
02:58 PM unterhaus: I have a vfd that seems to kill displays, weirdly enough
02:59 PM perry_j1987: kill displays?
02:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: does it fall over on them?
02:59 PM unterhaus: I got it dirt cheap with a dead display. Replacement display now doesn't work
03:00 PM unterhaus: it's possible that there is a setting to turn it back on, but I just got a hung yang to replace it
03:00 PM unterhaus: shop drywall project has now entered the "don't look at it too hard and it looks fine" stage
03:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: a persistent setting that keeps the display off is handy
03:01 PM unterhaus: why would that be handy?
03:01 PM perry_j1987: k getting rdy to head out to the shop
03:01 PM perry_j1987: think i got my gcode suitable to mill up this new fixture
03:01 PM perry_j1987: bbiab
03:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: when trying to nap in front of the VFD
03:01 PM unterhaus: in my case, the problem is I never set up the external switches, so I need the display to turn it on
03:02 PM roycroft: so i'm still trying to sort lining up my timing gears
03:02 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/CNC-Router/Z-Axis-Drive-Train.jpeg
03:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: when you wish to keep secret what RPM the spindle is turning from others
03:02 PM roycroft: you can see that the motor shaft only goes about 1/4 into the gear, which is not good
03:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: lotsa reasons
03:03 PM roycroft: i was thinking about putting an extension shaft on the motor, and lowering the motor a bit
03:03 PM roycroft: but will i lose much power if i do that?
03:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if the shaft slips sure it will lose power
03:04 PM roycroft: it won't slip
03:04 PM unterhaus: my feeble mind says you won't lose power if it doesn't slip
03:05 PM unterhaus: they can't go lower for some reason?
03:05 PM roycroft: the ball screw gear is bottomed out on the shaft
03:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: those gears look upside down
03:06 PM roycroft: i could mount it upside down
03:06 PM roycroft: but even so, the motor shaft would not fully extend to the end of the gear
03:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: shafts are too short, choose different motors and ballscrews
03:07 PM unterhaus: that's easy to say from here, buy new stuff
03:08 PM roycroft: hmm, actually that ball screw shaft is also too short
03:08 PM roycroft: i could get a different ball screw
03:08 PM roycroft: but i can't find any motors with longer shafts - i spent a lot of time looking for one the other day
03:08 PM unterhaus: I was going to say if you think the motor shaft is too short then the ballscrew shaft is too short too
03:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: use steel vs alu for the mounting plate
03:08 PM unterhaus: spacer under the mounting plate
03:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: shafts look long enough until you give it away to the plate
03:09 PM unterhaus: bore out the pulley on the ballscrew
03:09 PM roycroft: i may need an extension on both
03:09 PM roycroft: unterhaus: there's a nut that goes below the gear on the ball screw
03:09 PM roycroft: it's not shown in the diagram
03:09 PM roycroft: below the gear is threaded
03:10 PM unterhaus: there is probably a rule of thumb for this and I doubt you have exceeded the overhang
03:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's a router
03:11 PM unterhaus: let's not use ablest language
03:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: machine a pocket for the timing belt
03:11 PM unterhaus: that doesn't help, he can't move the ballscrew pulley
03:11 PM roycroft: i could mount the motor directly above the ball screw shaft
03:11 PM roycroft: which is how the ball screw was intended to be used
03:11 PM roycroft: i have a coupler for that already
03:12 PM unterhaus: you could mount the motor on top and use spacers
03:12 PM roycroft: but that 1. adds height, and 2. locks me into a 1:1 ratio
03:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: what is the point of this exercise?
03:12 PM roycroft: i might be able to live with that, though, if the motor is powerful enough
03:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: List every possible way to mount this?
03:13 PM roycroft: no, to find a way that will work
03:13 PM roycroft: what i have right now does not work
03:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: that YOU are happy with
03:13 PM unterhaus: you don't think it will work or it doesn't work
03:13 PM roycroft: this is not an exercise
03:13 PM roycroft: it's something i intend to build
03:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: lots of ways to configure this
03:13 PM roycroft: as drawn it will not work
03:14 PM roycroft: what i was asking about is whether i would lose power if i extended the shaft
03:14 PM Rab: roycroft, given the low-speed application, you could also drill into the tooth profile on the ballscrew pulley and put the set screws there. That lets you flip the pulley and remove the collar spacing.
03:14 PM roycroft: shafts, rather
03:14 PM roycroft: yeah, i wouldn't mind doing that
03:14 PM Rab: roycroft, how would you lose power? Shaft flex?
03:14 PM roycroft: i could, in fact, look for hubless gears
03:15 PM roycroft: yeah, shaft flex is a concern
03:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: is the motor not sized powerful enough for 1:1?
03:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 1.8 or 0.9 deg stepper? Is this the issue?
03:16 PM roycroft: that i'm not sure, because i don't know the total weight of what it will be moving
03:16 PM roycroft: i'll get to that point soon
03:16 PM Rab: If flex is a concern, that plate seems a little thin.
03:16 PM roycroft: i'm not sure it should be a concern, rab
03:16 PM roycroft: this is why i ask about such things here
03:16 PM roycroft: so that folks who know better can let me know when i'm way off base with my concerns
03:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: there are a bunch of lead and ballscrew calculators online
03:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I posted several
03:17 PM unterhaus: which part of this assembly already exist?
03:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just use them
03:17 PM unterhaus: in your possession
03:17 PM roycroft: i have a ball screw, the linear rails, the spindle, the spindle mount, and the motor
03:18 PM unterhaus: the motor mount part doesn't exist yet?
03:18 PM roycroft: no
03:18 PM roycroft: i have not fabricated anything yet
03:18 PM unterhaus: make the motor mount out of 3 times thicker material and hog out a pocket for the motor interface
03:18 PM Rab: I don't know better than anybody, but my concern wouldn't be flex so much as runout of the pulley on the shaft. I think getting more shaft into the pulley would be desirable to keep it from going (very slightly) cockeyed.
03:20 PM Rab: And that will help any issue with shaft flex as well.
03:20 PM roycroft: yes, runout could be an issue
03:20 PM roycroft: if i extend the shafts, i would make them as short as possible
03:20 PM roycroft: and machine them as precisely as possible
03:20 PM Rab: Runout is an issue with an extension, too, because tolerances add up.
03:20 PM unterhaus: shaft extensions are a poor idea
03:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you can buy motor mounts with mounting holes
03:21 PM roycroft: i am starting ot lean towards mounting the motor directly above the ball screw, learning to live with the extra height
03:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: do you think that every linear positioner manufacturer goes through this for every one they make?
03:21 PM roycroft: it would simplify matters
03:21 PM unterhaus: buying a motor mount and attaching it to the spindle mount isn't a bad idea
03:21 PM unterhaus: nema 23 motor mounts cost $10
03:21 PM roycroft: i think most of the go through this once, and then they know what to do for future designs
03:22 PM roycroft: i need an extra motor anyway
03:22 PM roycroft: i have 3 and i need 4 for this project
03:22 PM unterhaus: I think people don't overthink it to this extent. Not that it's that bad to do that
03:22 PM Rab: CaptHindsight[m], perhaps a manufacturer has the advantage in being able to spec their components.
03:22 PM roycroft: i think people who design machines for a living do, initially
03:22 PM roycroft: i think the average hobby machine builder probably does not
03:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: why NASA takes so long to get anything done
03:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: vs Parker, Yaskawa etc
03:24 PM unterhaus: we went to a local grinder place to troubleshoot bad surface finish on a new model
03:24 PM roycroft: a lot of hobby builders just make wild guesses, build the machine, and then immediately start rebuilding the parts of it on which they guessed wrong
03:24 PM unterhaus: they had just extended the nose of their grinder spindles to get more envelope and it vibrated
03:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: since they have already thought this through a bazillion times, maybe you can look at what tends to work
03:25 PM unterhaus: I don't know why you wouldn't make a motor mounting plate that moves the motor up
03:25 PM unterhaus: since you can make it yourself
03:26 PM roycroft: that's how i've been going so far, but i'm not copying anything exactly - my method is to design something similar to what's commonly been done, and then do the calcs to determine if it's going to work, or what changes to make
03:26 PM roycroft: i've considered that, unterhaus, but then i noticed that the ball screw shaft is not long enough either, which i hadn't noticed at first
03:26 PM unterhaus: but in the spirit of a design review, how are you doing to tension this thing?
03:26 PM roycroft: that's when direct coupling started making sense
03:27 PM roycroft: it would also save the cost of those expensive timing gears and belts
03:27 PM unterhaus: yeah, do that
03:28 PM unterhaus: you may find that more horizontal wasted space is worse than vertical wasted space
03:28 PM roycroft: i'll have the same issue on the other axes, though, where direct coupling is even more of a problem
03:28 PM roycroft: for the very reason you just stated
03:28 PM roycroft: so i'll still have to figure out how to deal with that
03:28 PM roycroft: and if could find motors with longer shafts, that would be fine
03:29 PM roycroft: the three motors i have now were originally for my mill conversion, and they could go back to that project (where i'm sure they'll work, as they're more powerful than most conversions of that same machine use)
03:29 PM unterhaus: spinning nut
03:30 PM roycroft: i'll try not to ask many more questions about this here - i'm obviously wearing out my welcome on this project
03:31 PM Rab: Beats politics.
03:32 PM roycroft: politics is wearing out its welcome with me
03:32 PM roycroft: most of what seem to be political statements by me lately are not about politics at all, but about behaviors
03:32 PM Rab: roycroft, I have a question for you, since you're evidently a woodworker.
03:32 PM roycroft: i do work with wood
03:34 PM Rab: I've been building some custom hanging shelves, which have a bunch of crossmembers and other pieces with some creative contours. I cut the pieces out, and then have to spend some time sanding all the planes and contours. It takes some time and attention to get a reproducible finish.
03:35 PM Rab: Doing the cuts on a router would save some hand labor, but not for the sanding. Is there any method of automating that?
03:36 PM roycroft: not really
03:36 PM Rab: I was thinking some kind of abrasive blasting, or a thing like a planing machine but with a bunch of flap disks.
03:36 PM roycroft: for some contours you could use a molding plane, which generally leaves a better finish than a router cutter
03:36 PM roycroft: but that does not work in all cases
03:37 PM roycroft: sanding is the bane of woodworking
03:37 PM Rab: hmm
03:37 PM roycroft: i do have a sander that can help with that, and it has paid for itself many times over
03:38 PM roycroft: it's a festool ls-115
03:38 PM roycroft: it's an inline sander, so the pad only travels along the long axis of the machine
03:38 PM Rab: It sure makes a big difference in the finished appearance (at least for my amateur projects).
03:38 PM roycroft: and you can get custom foam pads that can be reverse contoured to match your molding
03:38 PM roycroft: but that's a pretty expensive solution
03:39 PM roycroft: and yes, it makes a huge difference
03:39 PM roycroft: and to make matters worse, you need to sand end grain to at least one, if not two, grits beyond the flat surfaces if you want the color to look more even
03:39 PM unterhaus: CaptHindsight, did the Chinese plane blowing through containers make the news?
03:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: don't recall, new news or old news?
03:40 PM unterhaus: it was on the 29th https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=649587772978402
03:40 PM roycroft: but yes, depending on the piece being made, i usually budget 20-40% of total time for sanding/finish prep
03:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: oh I lost my fake facebook account
03:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: was tied to an old yahoo email account
03:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: lost that as well
03:41 PM Rab: https://www.airlineratings.com/news/passenger-news/video-china-airlines-747-smashing-cargo-containers/
03:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I knew I should have stuck with AOL
03:42 PM Rab: Embedded video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QAz23KPRDU
03:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: I never watch local news
03:43 PM Rab: Looks like it ingested at least one of them.
03:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Chicago could sink under the lake and I would probably hear about it from somewhere far away
03:47 PM unterhaus: that's true here, but only because the local paper stinks
03:47 PM unterhaus: I think it ingested several, but engines tend to stop turning after the first one
03:48 PM roycroft: one could argue that chicago has alredy sunk that low
03:48 PM unterhaus: the big sandusky scandal news came out in a little newspaper near harrisburg
03:48 PM unterhaus: a year before it was covered here
03:48 PM roycroft: we had headline news from pennsylvania the other day
03:48 PM roycroft: the great monkey escape
03:49 PM unterhaus: I think I saw that, don't try to catch it
03:49 PM unterhaus: that airplane was spraying underwear everywhere
03:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: I saw pics of that on reddit but they didn't have context
03:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: thanks for filling in the gaps :)
03:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: going to be a few million dollar fix
03:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mechanics were discussing it
03:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and since it's a 747, Being has to send people out to it as well
03:53 PM roycroft: i just got some new japanese mechanical pencils
03:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just lack of parts and for recertification
03:53 PM roycroft: they have a feature where every time one releases pressure on the tip, it retracts a wee bit and rotates
03:53 PM roycroft: so that the lead is worn uniformly, which should reduce breakage
03:53 PM roycroft: they are 0.5mm, the standard size that i use
04:05 PM unterhaus: roycroft, I take it that taper lock pulleys aren't available in the sizes you want?
04:05 PM unterhaus: because there is plenty of overhang on my bridgeport
04:06 PM unterhaus: but the shaft fully engages with the taperlock part
04:06 PM unterhaus: plenty of strength to squash my fingertip
04:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: a small note about those small timing gears, the flange opposite the hub is generally pressed on
04:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and not very well
04:11 PM unterhaus: aren't they typically both pressed on?
04:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it varies depending on source and size, the cheapos tend to come off pretty easily
04:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i have a box of bargain parts collected over the years
04:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: "how bad can it really be?"
04:16 PM roycroft: https://www.jwz.org/blog/2022/01/i-too-have-wanted-to-shoot-the-internet-and-or-comcast/
04:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: the one on the hub side tends to be trapped by the hub, so it can only walk into the timing belt
04:18 PM roycroft: on those small gears, the gears are generally made of aluminium, and the flanges of steel
04:18 PM unterhaus: okay, swaged on but firmly attached
04:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the flange opposite just leaves the end of the gear
04:18 PM unterhaus: I have a pair of ballscrews that would be perfect length for my lathe cros slide, but they are 32mm
04:19 PM unterhaus: not sure I could wedge that much ballscrew into the space available
04:19 PM roycroft: if the gears are aligned properly and the setup is rigidly fixtured, the flanges should not be necessary
04:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: https://i.imgur.com/5geH8WV.jpg is yours 1.4m long as well?
04:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ^^40mm screw
04:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: might be part of a lathe someday
04:38 PM miss0r: quite impressive build here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_F5OGjLpOQ
04:58 PM JT-Shop: he needed some rotary seals it seems
04:58 PM XXCoder: miss0r you might be interested on this channel a sec
04:59 PM XXCoder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jyYHHLbP84
04:59 PM XXCoder: guys starting machine build, and challenges is having smaller tools and machines
05:00 PM miss0r: I know blondihacks. I just haven't watched her steam engine, though
05:00 PM miss0r: *girl
05:00 PM XXCoder: yeah
05:01 PM JT-Shop: prob pm research casting
05:01 PM JT-Shop: I should finish mine one day
05:01 PM roycroft: she just started building a new one
05:02 PM JT-Shop: yep pm research engine
05:02 PM XXCoder: love channels where guy explains thinking though how to do setups
05:02 PM JT-Shop: quite challenging to rig up castings
05:02 PM miss0r: meh.. In another 15 minuts its midnight.... And I am just waiting for this LiPo battery to complete its charging so I can go to bed. As I don't have one of those fancy charging bags and I don't particularly trust this battery/charger I'm stuck for a while longer it seems
05:03 PM JT-Shop: I'll be watching that video series for sure
05:03 PM perry_j1987: hmm whats the max range in mm you'd want to go for a drill bit for a finished reamed hole
05:03 PM perry_j1987: .1 or .2mm?
05:04 PM JT-Shop: 1/64" undersize
05:04 PM miss0r: usualy 0.2mm undersize
05:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: miss0r: scared of a little battery fire? :p
05:05 PM miss0r: perry_j1987: http://www.toolingsolutions.com/technical_info/reamer_hole_size
05:05 PM miss0r: CaptHindsight[m]: This is one of those 80c 5300mAh batteries. I don't think 'little' and 'fire' combine well here :D
05:06 PM perry_j1987: k
05:07 PM JT-Shop: wow sanding on a lathe...
05:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: miss0r: you just need one of those concrete battery charging bunkers
05:08 PM XXCoder: isnt sanding mean ways will have powder on it
05:08 PM miss0r: well.. Sanding on a lathe is okay. I do it all the time. You just have to cover the ways & cleam them after.. if not possible then you REALY need to clean it after
05:09 PM miss0r: CaptHindsight[m]: Sure :) I'd like a bunker
05:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sure
05:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sacrificial ways or lathe
05:09 PM miss0r: If I had the room, I'd have such a lathe.. for welding & grinding on it
05:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yeah dedicated tools for different materials
05:10 PM XXCoder: makes sense
05:11 PM miss0r: I already have that to some extend. I hate cutting tools seprately for stainless steel, alu & 'the rest'
05:11 PM miss0r: It takes up alot of space doing it like that. But you just don't want to contaminate some things
05:13 PM JT-Shop: yep gotta either keep the grit off the ways or clean it really good
05:13 PM JT-Shop: her fixturing is interesting
05:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: miss0r: how is your winter this year?
05:14 PM miss0r: CaptHindsight[m]: Windy. Not particular cold
05:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we actually got snow and have been on the cold side
05:15 PM miss0r: We just had a storm blow through in the weekend. but nothing realy spectacular
05:15 PM miss0r: nice
05:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: today was above 0C, been mostly below -10-30c
05:15 PM miss0r: Well, Theres still a slim chance we can get some snow soon. But I wouldn't hold my breath
05:15 PM miss0r: that is pretty cold
05:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: didn't Greece and Turkey get snow recently?
05:17 PM miss0r: Yeah. and not just a little bit. They got hammered
05:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and nothing up north!
05:18 PM miss0r: Not a damn speck of snow. Well, we had a little bit around christmas time. But nothing that warranted me firing up one of the land rovers.. And then what good is it?
05:21 PM miss0r: woah that boring head setup would scare me. Be sure I would run that slow :D
05:22 PM JT-Shop: she said it's running at 140 rpm
05:23 PM XXCoder: low rpm, low feed yeah
05:47 PM unreal: so that was an amazing spacex launch
05:47 PM unreal: went RIGHT over head
05:50 PM XXCoder: interesting. making waterproof sheets https://youtu.be/z_R0gEDZhAI
05:50 PM XXCoder: apparently better than tarp
05:58 PM JT-Shop: hmm my 22.5° parts are a bit under and don't form a perfect circle...
06:03 PM JT-Shop: might need to make a shooting board
06:19 PM Tom_L: how did you end up cutting the angles?
06:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hey when did bed sheets become waterproof?
06:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: do they have gutters to collect fluids?
07:16 PM CloudEvil: https://youtu.be/zBxHrNIzp9w?t=1094 some insane accuracy.
07:16 PM CloudEvil: They have the telescope pointed well enough and smooth enough to get some 30cm resolution at 100km or so and 2km/s.
07:27 PM perry_j1987: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh4MVzn61dg&t=625s
07:27 PM perry_j1987: got stuck watching this for a bit heh
07:52 PM perry_j1987: this latest update to fusion 360 really is irritating
07:52 PM perry_j1987: have to close it down and loose progress every half hour it seems
08:04 PM roycroft: wow
08:04 PM roycroft: my drag chain is here already
08:04 PM roycroft: i just ordered it on friday
08:04 PM Tom_L: so get busy
08:05 PM roycroft: i have a boring budget meeting to sit through tonight
08:05 PM roycroft: i'll be able to measure it and make some cad drawings during the meeting
08:06 PM Tom_L: careful they might decrease your pay
08:06 PM roycroft: it does self-support well
08:06 PM Tom_L: ;)
08:06 PM Tom_L: i figured it would
08:06 PM roycroft: but there's no weight on it yet, other than itself
08:06 PM roycroft: when it's full of cables it might sag a bit
08:06 PM roycroft: but i don't think much
08:08 PM roycroft: and i should clarify
08:08 PM roycroft: i have a budget meeting this evening that i hope is boring
08:08 PM Tom_L: heh
08:09 PM roycroft: it's a public meeting, so one never knows
08:54 PM unreal: what a difference. I just finshed moving one of my dbl stacked metal cabnets
08:54 PM unreal: now side by side and just about perfect for the machine
09:09 PM roycroft: my band saw table and imac disk upgrade just arrived
09:09 PM roycroft: lots of things to deal with
09:09 PM roycroft: the band saw table seems flat, and it's not all rusted
09:09 PM roycroft: so it's an improvement over what came with the machine
09:55 PM perry_j1987: hows it going tonight
10:31 PM t4nk_freenode: lousy.
10:44 PM perry_j1987: im having rough time too
10:44 PM perry_j1987: do one edit and wait for a few min while fusion 360 catches up
10:45 PM FinboySlick: The state of proper cad is so sad these days. I still use a very old version of solidworks.
10:50 PM XXCoder: FinboySlick: I guess. I never really needed advanced stuff so freecad always worked for me
10:52 PM FinboySlick: Yeah. I'd use anything but subscription-based cloud stuff when it comes to cad, especially from something as evil as Autodesk.
10:55 PM XXCoder: yeah sub based nope, cloud double nope
10:55 PM FinboySlick: It's impressive that they managed to convince people who make stuff that they don't really own their tools.
10:58 PM roycroft: i shun subscription based and cloud/web based software period, not just when it comes to cad
10:58 PM roycroft: and, of course, it's the subscription based stuff that tends to have the most proprietary, non-portable file formats
11:00 PM FinboySlick: Yeah. It'd be cool if there was something equivalent to the Blender foundation for free cad.
11:03 PM flyback: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUIO-ai_RB8
11:03 PM XXCoder: aka Deere
11:04 PM XXCoder: dont buy deere crap
11:04 PM XXCoder: nor deer crap
11:13 PM perry_j1987: it'd be diff for me if they ever tried to charge me of course lol
11:13 PM perry_j1987: not paying for this kind of experience for sure
11:14 PM FinboySlick: There's a point where it feels more about control than profits too.
11:15 PM FinboySlick: Not sure Deere makes that much more money on service fees.
11:15 PM perry_j1987: maybe i should stop using Q hotkey in fusion
11:16 PM XXCoder: finboy but they sure lock down machines.
11:17 PM FinboySlick: Yeah. I'd just be curious to compare their overall profit per tractor to that of a company that doesn't.
11:57 PM roycroft: finboyslick: it is always about power/control after a point
11:57 PM roycroft: and the budget meeting just ended
11:57 PM roycroft: it went over 42 minutes
11:58 PM roycroft: it was mostly boring, thank goodness :)