#linuxcnc Logs
Jan 21 2022
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:05 AM roycroft: it smells like oil with some strange perfume
12:14 AM roycroft: rather acrid
12:14 AM roycroft: and rather pungent
01:49 AM randy: morning
01:58 AM Loetmichel: mornin'
01:59 AM Loetmichel: *giggle*. Coworker just needed a win7 iso for a test on a virtual machine... so i looked into my "iso" drawer on the company machine... well, i found the win7 iso, an xp iso and even a win2k iso... i *THINK* i should clean up that machine more often ;)
01:59 AM XXCoder: lol
02:00 AM randy: for "bingo", you would need winNT and winME also.
02:01 AM XXCoder: any boot disk for in least one of windows there? lol
02:01 AM Loetmichel: well, i have a win3.11 cd(!) at home... does that count?
02:03 AM XXCoder: wow cd of that
02:03 AM XXCoder: thats rare
02:04 AM Loetmichel: indeed
02:04 AM Loetmichel: and more compact compared to the 31 floppies
02:06 AM randy: somewhere in my basement i should have an "suse linux november 95'" cdrom kit
02:06 AM randy: and some solaris 7 floppies as well
02:07 AM XXCoder: heh early linux era you had so many cds
02:08 AM XXCoder: essentally all programs you needed because generally most people internet access sucked
02:08 AM Loetmichel: < still has the suse 6.1 box at home
02:09 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13853&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
02:09 AM randy: XXCoder: which internet access?
02:09 AM Loetmichel: :)
02:09 AM randy: 95' nearly nobody had a "private inet access" at home - at least here in bavaria
02:09 AM XXCoder: aol or dialup lol
02:10 AM Loetmichel: randy: aol+ isdn it was for me back then
02:10 AM randy: well, besides of some "nerds" :)
02:10 AM Loetmichel: actually how i managed to score my wife. Met her in an "aol flirtchat" message board back then ;)
02:10 AM randy: i would call aol as internet access
02:11 AM randy: it was some kind of.. graphical mailbox access?
02:11 AM XXCoder: randy: garden "internet" though you do have internet access also
02:11 AM randy: but hey, tons of cds from them, perfect for doing funny things
02:11 AM XXCoder: I still have aol cds box
02:11 AM XXCoder: 100 cd. lol
02:11 AM randy: ...
02:12 AM XXCoder: it was stupid easy to get cds. I used to have aol cdrom for luke skywalker, han solo, few fictional people lol
02:13 AM Loetmichel: well, there was a time when they were used as coasters. eventually they became a nuissance enough that aol was forced to stop distributing them here in germany.
02:14 AM randy: mhm. i need more kicad practice. just drawing a new symbol for "quad port RJ45 jack". its like i never used kicad before... m(
02:14 AM XXCoder: loet early days, it was great free disks when youre very poor
02:14 AM XXCoder: then cds was useless
02:14 AM XXCoder: i wanted to make cds lamp, thats why I have 100, but never got around it
02:15 AM randy: maybe cleuing them together with clear acrylic and afterwards latheing(?)
02:16 AM XXCoder: simpler than that
02:16 AM XXCoder: https://www.fabartdiy.com/cd-lamp/
02:17 AM XXCoder: old project page, id use leds now
02:18 AM randy: retro! :)
02:19 AM XXCoder: yeah
02:19 AM XXCoder: people just dpnt have cds nowdays basically, so much fewer cd projects
02:24 AM Loetmichel: well, i still have some golden "audio" CDRs
02:24 AM Loetmichel: GEMA paid... :)
02:24 AM Loetmichel: wonder if they would still be recordable
02:26 AM XXCoder: probably is, unless ink have decayed. depends on type
03:56 AM pere: wow, German have run past both French and Russian on <URL: https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/linuxcnc/#languages > the last few days. :)
04:59 AM JT-Cave: morning
04:59 AM Tom_L: morning
05:00 AM JT-Cave: 12°F
05:00 AM Tom_L: 13°F
05:02 AM Tom_L: neighbor's dog was all pissed off at something this morning when i took mine
05:02 AM Tom_L: didn't see anything but he calmed down when we went out
05:04 AM JT-Cave: the 4 year old hens were all next to the heat lamp at bed time last night
05:04 AM Tom_L: heh
05:07 AM JT-Cave: https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/missouri-highway-patrol-sends-errant-alert-about-searching-for-vehicle-from-batman/article_5f576afb-8003-5317-9b51-0aed0473c73c.html
05:10 AM Tom_L: :)
05:12 AM Tom_L: sent another alert soon after the first — a "Blue Alert," which means an officer has been killed or seriously injured
05:12 AM Tom_L: way to go...
05:13 AM Tom_L: skunkworks, good thing you speak chinese :)
07:10 AM JT-Cave: hmm now fedex says my robert sorby chuck will be here today and I have to be here to sign for it
07:16 AM JT-Cave: hmm 5 minutes till I have to go outside in the cold
09:13 AM unterhausen: pulling wire through my lathe was a failure. I might actually have to buy some cable
09:14 AM unterhausen: I wish I could swap out the conduit, but the one end is well hidden
09:23 AM unterhausen: just looked for cable on ebay and it turns out I fail to have the patience required to find what I want
10:16 AM unterhaus: how long do you have to be on here before you are kicked for being idle?
10:19 AM satiowadahc[m]: I mean I was idle for months, so somewhere between months and minutes?
11:18 AM jfsimon1981: Hi, good evening
11:19 AM jfsimon1981: Could you please recommend a 3 or 4 axis stepper board for 36V supply ?
11:23 AM JT-Cave: stepper driver or breakout board for a pc?
11:28 AM Bleepshop: unterhaus: Piece of string, a cotton ball and a vacuum. Tie the cotton to the end of the string, stuff it in the end of the conduit and apply the vacuum to the other end of the conduit. Works a treat.
11:30 AM Bleepshop: My personal record doing that is a 50mm, 35M run with 6 elbows. Used construction string to pull paracord and then the cables.
11:32 AM jfsimon1981: i think a breakout board
11:32 AM jfsimon1981: not just the chip
11:33 AM jfsimon1981: i used to have the TB6560-4v3 which is I think a Chinese board with a parallel port and relays. I managed to short circuit it though.
11:34 AM jfsimon1981: and so it did'nt like at all even for a very short time.
11:46 AM JT-Shop: with the current chip shortage the cheap chinese board might be a good choice
11:47 AM jfsimon1981: yep difficult to find the right ref, if someone has one ...
11:48 AM jfsimon1981: i'm trying to repair it, it has a Toshiba 6560 chip, out of 4 1 was unused, and 1 s shorted. Maybe soldering one for the other can work.
11:49 AM unterhaus: Bleepshop. That's not the problem. Problem is the string broke after the casing failed on the calbe
11:50 AM unterhaus: I had 2 cables through and the third failed. Wanted to get 4 through
11:50 AM unterhaus: getting a pull string is easy, it's 1/2" conduit
11:51 AM unterhaus: no need for anything but a vacuum and a string
11:52 AM JT-Shop: if there were any available I'd recommend a Mesa 7i96 for steppers
11:53 AM JT-Shop: unterhaus, you have to pull all 4 at once...
11:53 AM unterhaus: JT-Shop, I figured that out
11:53 AM unterhaus: only problem is I need to find another cable now I ruined the 3rd one
11:54 AM JT-Shop: what kind of cable?
11:55 AM unterhaus: smart serial + ethernet + 8 conductors
11:55 AM unterhaus: sorry, I need another 4 conductor cable
11:56 AM JT-Shop: for signals? like 20 awg?
11:56 AM roycroft: and an upgrade to 3/4" conduit?
11:56 AM unterhaus: yeah 20awg would work
11:56 AM unterhaus: I would like to upgrade the conduit, but I can't tell if I can reach the hidden end
11:57 AM unterhaus: climbing under there with a flashlight is on the agenda
11:57 AM JT-Shop: how long? I have several boxes full of cable
11:57 AM roycroft: i have go to out and remove the smelly oil stuff that's on my linear motion gear shortly
11:57 AM unterhaus: JT, thanks, I'll let you know if my junk collection fails me
11:58 AM unterhaus: Probably be best to have about 10' though
11:58 AM JT-Shop: ok
11:58 AM JT-Shop: let me see what I have
11:58 AM roycroft: i did not reach my milestone on the router cad work last night, though, so i'm using that as my excuse to not go out and clean that stuff
11:59 AM unterhaus: the excuses not to work on things always present themselves like magic
12:00 PM unterhaus: I usually work on things until something is unpleasant or I'm not sure I can pull it off and then the project languishes.
12:00 PM unterhaus: I'm trying to overcome that bad habit
12:01 PM unterhaus: I should probably write down what the problem is for each project
12:02 PM unterhaus: like with my shop expansion, I haven't finished because I don't like to sand drywall
12:03 PM Tom_L: if you put the mud on right there is very little if any to sand
12:03 PM CloudEvil: If you put the mud on wrong enough, it's art, and you don't need to sand.
12:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: what popcorn for walls and ceilings is for
12:04 PM Tom_L: besides, a good painter can hide anything!
12:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: drywall taping is best left to somebody else
12:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: automotive body sanding is more of an art
12:07 PM JT-Shop: unterhaus, first cable I pulled out of the box is belden 9444 13' long with 4 color wires
12:07 PM JT-Shop: looks to be 20-22awg
12:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: drywall taping is up there with toilet unplugging, dead animal removal, stinky tofu cooking etc
12:07 PM JT-Shop: cable diameter is 0.2
12:09 PM unterhaus: JT, I'll send you an email
12:11 PM unterhaus: JT-Shop, are you getting a shipment from mesa anytime soon? I want another 7i73
12:12 PM JT-Cave: I don't have anything coming from mesa except a 7i95 with a bad step/dir pin
12:12 PM JT-Cave: pm me your email and I'll put the cable in an envelope and hand it to the postal person
12:25 PM JT-Shop: or email me
12:25 PM unterhaus: had to remember how to log in
12:26 PM unterhaus: I just messaged JT-Cave
12:43 PM * JT-Shop hugs the LogWood for a bit after that brisk walk down to the road
01:20 PM XXCoder: TINY DIY injection machine https://youtu.be/JtcJAaYVMAg
01:22 PM unterhaus: machine went crazy https://www.facebook.com/groups/1687664214819261/posts/2823162021269469/
01:23 PM unterhaus: XXCoder, I finally got sd cards for my printer :)
01:23 PM unterhaus: what do I do with them?
01:23 PM XXCoder: looking
01:24 PM XXCoder: ow thats expensive
01:24 PM XXCoder: it kurts ;)
01:24 PM XXCoder: unterhaus: mini select mp right?
01:25 PM unterhaus: yes
01:25 PM unterhaus: I think that vise may have been a bridgeport
01:25 PM XXCoder: cool :) hopefully its 2 gb one, since danged machine dont support larger
01:26 PM XXCoder: think you can format it into 2 gb if its larger, but yeah
01:34 PM unterhaus: yeah, had to work pretty hard to find 2gb. What should I put on there?
01:35 PM XXCoder: special wifi configure gcode file
01:35 PM XXCoder: so you can get it to connect to wifi
01:35 PM XXCoder: lemme get it a sec
01:36 PM XXCoder: https://dpaste.com/9Z642E6BS
01:37 PM XXCoder: file name must be wifi_setup.gcode
01:38 PM roycroft: finally, i have all three axes of my router together in a drawing
01:38 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/CNC-Router/Full-Assembly-Preliminary.jpeg
01:38 PM XXCoder: there was app on phone to configure wifi on it, but its dead now. doesnt work
01:38 PM roycroft: tear it apart and tell me what i've done wrong :)
01:39 PM XXCoder: everything
01:39 PM XXCoder: kidding heh
01:39 PM XXCoder: rendering is cool
01:39 PM * roycroft rm -rf's the project
01:39 PM XXCoder: it moves on extrusions?
01:39 PM XXCoder: oh i think I see MGNs on top
01:40 PM roycroft: i only did the rendering because it's complex enough now that in the drawing window it just shows up as a bunch of blocks
01:40 PM roycroft: yeah, there are linear rails attached to the extrusions
01:40 PM roycroft: i'll do a front view
01:44 PM unterhaus: XXCoder the M550 is SSID and M551 is password?
01:45 PM XXCoder: yeah
01:46 PM unterhaus: thanks
01:46 PM XXCoder: welcome. took mne quite a while to find that method
01:46 PM XXCoder: good thing it exists.
01:47 PM unterhaus: once you have it connected, do you map it as a drive or something?
01:47 PM XXCoder: BTW do NOT print 2 files right after another. restart machine, because it screws up secopnd print
01:47 PM XXCoder: nah just open local website. it displays ip so something like http://192.168.191.12 whatever
01:47 PM unterhaus: okay, that's nice
01:48 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/CNC-Router/Full-Assembly-Preliminary-Front-View.jpeg
01:48 PM roycroft: there, you can see the rails a lot better
01:48 PM XXCoder: thats what i thought. thanks
01:48 PM XXCoder: though I wonder if having second mgn on bottom would be any benefit
01:49 PM XXCoder: harder to strighten though
01:49 PM roycroft: it would add a fair amount of cost and complexity
01:49 PM roycroft: but i've considered it
01:50 PM XXCoder: unterhaus: actually think refreshing website makes it fine also
01:50 PM roycroft: the gantry sides are wicked strong
01:50 PM roycroft: and the x axis extrusion is 3"x6"
01:50 PM XXCoder: you can print wihout worries if you just move sdcard to computer, copy files to it, and return to machine, its website thats kinda broken
01:50 PM XXCoder: should be fine then
01:50 PM roycroft: i'm thinking that is probably enough to hold it all quite rigidly
01:51 PM unterhaus: I think you had a wiki page that I downloaded. See if I can find it
01:51 PM roycroft: but that's why i'm posting pics and asking
01:51 PM roycroft: because i've never built one of these before
01:51 PM XXCoder: roy I wonder about gantry sides bottom, is it one peice metal? wouldnt that be expensive
01:51 PM roycroft: the gantry sides are torsion boxes
01:52 PM XXCoder: im but concerned about twisting there too. sides is strong, MGN plates isnt as strong
01:52 PM roycroft: two layers of 1/2" aluminium, with 1/2"x1" pieces in between them
01:52 PM roycroft: the bearing supports are 3/4" thick aluminium
01:52 PM roycroft: two pieces - each as wide as the bearing is long
01:53 PM roycroft: so that piece does not run all the way through
01:53 PM roycroft: but it's attached to the gantry sides by screws from the outside horizontally, and from the bottom vertically
01:53 PM XXCoder: ok let me try picture this correctly, how thick is L extrusion holding on MGNs along long axis?
01:53 PM roycroft: 3/4" thick
01:53 PM XXCoder: oh pictured it bit wrong then
01:54 PM XXCoder: very strong
01:54 PM XXCoder: I guess few bolts to attach it to gantry thick sides
01:54 PM roycroft: the outer gantry side pieces are extra long because i plan on mounting the ball screws in between the gantry sides and the extrusions
01:54 PM XXCoder: not bad really
01:55 PM XXCoder: but if its wood only id just do center, cheaper. but if you want metal then yeah 2 is better
01:58 PM roycroft: the gantry sides weigh 10kg each
01:59 PM XXCoder: heavy indeed lol
02:00 PM roycroft: the x axis crossmember + z axis weighs 29.34kg so far
02:01 PM roycroft: so i think there's enough mass there
02:01 PM XXCoder: beefy steppers?
02:01 PM roycroft: hopefully beefy enough
02:01 PM roycroft: i have nema 23 motors @ 420 oz-in
02:02 PM roycroft: i'll do some calculations when i get the design more refined, and decide then whether the motors are likely to be strong enough
02:02 PM XXCoder: cool :)
02:02 PM XXCoder: i want to get more beefy (longer) nema23s
02:02 PM roycroft: i may scale back the design somewhat
02:02 PM Tom_L: XXCoder, what do you have now
02:02 PM roycroft: but this is where i'm starting
02:03 PM XXCoder: cheap chinese 6040 :)
02:03 PM roycroft: i hope others here who have more experience will weigh in before i go too much farther
02:03 PM XXCoder: unfortunately steppers is bit weak
02:03 PM roycroft: i'll be using timing belts and pulleys on all the motors - no direct drive
02:03 PM roycroft: so i can gear down if necessary, at the cost of speed, of course
02:04 PM XXCoder: indeed. not bad really.
02:04 PM roycroft: i'm assuming i'll do about 1:3 on the z axis
02:04 PM roycroft: since there's not too much motion going on there anyway
02:04 PM roycroft: on the y i want it to be as fast as possible, but i'll have two joints on the y, so two motors working togethere
02:05 PM XXCoder: that ibjector is surpising simple
02:07 PM XXCoder: couple problems noted by them and theyre working on better version
02:07 PM Tom_L: Z 2:1 would be adequate
02:12 PM Tom_L: don't quite see how you are going to attach the ballscrews
02:24 PM roycroft: i plan on attaching the screw bearings to the extrusion on the side, and the nuts to the insides of the gantry sides
02:25 PM roycroft: i haven't worked out clearances yet for that
02:26 PM roycroft: but that is why the outside gantry parts stick down so far
03:02 PM roycroft: pardon the crudeness, but i'm not adept at making exploded assembly views in sw yet
03:02 PM roycroft: this is the structure of my gantry sides:
03:03 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/CNC-Router/Left-Gantry-Side-Exploded.jpeg
03:03 PM XXCoder: interesting
03:03 PM XXCoder: plan to fill the space?
03:03 PM roycroft: no
03:03 PM roycroft: and i may even eliminate all the middle pieces
03:04 PM roycroft: it seems like it's likely overkill to make it that way
03:04 PM roycroft: but i don't want the gantry racking at all
03:05 PM roycroft: adding those pieces in the middle doesn't add a lot of cost for materials, but it adds a lot of time to the build
03:06 PM roycroft: anyway, i've spent enough time with cad today, at least for now
03:06 PM roycroft: it is time to head out to the shop to deal with the smelly linear rails
03:07 PM XXCoder: :)
03:07 PM roycroft: i need to unsmellify them, then uncrunchify them
03:26 PM roycroft: well, i may have gotten lucky with this vendor - the rails are well-made and have no burrs or anything, the bearings don't sound or feel crunchy, and they fit snugly
03:27 PM roycroft: i'll have to set up a mount for the rails so i can indicate the bearings to see if they actually do have any play, but things seem decent - certainly a lot better than many of the online reports about these clone rails/trucks
03:41 PM Lcvette[m]: question regarding mesa card identification in the hal I/O section
03:41 PM Lcvette[m]: hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.0.output-02 in this example, what do the .0.0. signify?
03:42 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
03:42 PM Lcvette[m]: i tried searching but im sure my searh criteria is wrong as it pulled up everything but the information i was hoping to find
03:48 PM Lcvette[m]: pcw--home: ^^^
04:07 PM JT-Shop: card 0, could be 1.0 or 0.1 if you have two 7i77's
04:07 PM Lcvette[m]: JT-Shop: thank you!
04:07 PM JT-Shop: yw
04:08 PM JT-Shop: hows it going
04:08 PM Lcvette[m]: we are trying to build a hal led status widget that auto populates based on connections in the hal file
04:08 PM JT-Shop: cool
04:08 PM Lcvette[m]: good! we miss you in there!
04:08 PM Lcvette[m]: 😀
04:08 PM JT-Shop: I've been so freaking busy lately I just don't understand why...
04:09 PM Lcvette[m]: hows the chickenses?
04:09 PM Lcvette[m]: with work? thats a good thing right?
04:09 PM JT-Shop: down to 13, lost one near xmas
04:09 PM JT-Shop: yep I keep getting jobs after jobs
04:10 PM JT-Shop: but I'm supposed to be semi retired...
04:10 PM JT-Shop: https://gnipsel.com/images/chickens/bowls/
04:10 PM Lcvette[m]: sorry to hear baout the chick
04:11 PM JT-Shop: she lived a good life and spent her final days in the machine shop where it's warm and safe
04:11 PM Lcvette[m]: are you making those as a product?
04:11 PM Lcvette[m]: they look gorgeous
04:11 PM JT-Shop: they are getting better just got my sorby chuck today
04:11 PM JT-Shop: for the chickens and for me to practice on
04:11 PM Lcvette[m]: gotch
04:12 PM Lcvette[m]: * gotcha
04:12 PM JT-Shop: they will hold crushed egg shells, oyster shells and granite grit
04:12 PM Lcvette[m]: well your doing good with them!
04:12 PM JT-Shop: https://gnipsel.com/images/chickens/elevated-dust-bath/
04:12 PM JT-Shop: that was a fun project made with short bits of red oak
04:13 PM * JT-Shop heads out to the other shop to clean the protective stuff off the jaws
04:14 PM Lcvette[m]: is that a planter?
04:14 PM Lcvette[m]: 😲
04:14 PM Lcvette[m]: ok enjoy!
04:35 PM roycroft: hmm, i guess i must be doing something terribly wrong
04:35 PM roycroft: i just saw a video that was titled "how to build a low-rider cnc router for less than $600"
04:35 PM roycroft: i have probably twice that much invested in mine so far, and i have hardly begin purchasing components for it
05:19 PM JT-Shop: Lcvette[m], it's a dust bath for the chickens
05:20 PM Centurion_Dan1 is now known as Centurion_Dan
05:30 PM * JT-Shop just realized he never got the flip up stop for his Osborne miter gauge...
05:33 PM Tom_L: chuck is for a wood lathe?
05:35 PM JT-Shop: yep, it's really nice chuck
05:35 PM JT-Shop: robert sorby chuck
05:35 PM Tom_L: i figured it was
05:35 PM Tom_L: i don't know much about woodworking equipment though
05:36 PM JT-Shop: not much more than a mediocre chuck
05:36 PM JT-Shop: so it's a no brainer and the sorby is the only one that does not have gaps in sizes you can chuck up
05:36 PM Tom_L: oh i remember you mentioning that
05:37 PM JT-Shop: kinda having fun making chicken bowls :)
05:37 PM Tom_L: saw those
05:37 PM JT-Shop: actually roycroft mentioned that
05:38 PM JT-Shop: below freezing at night but daytime will warm up enough to go play
05:39 PM JT-Shop: Monday
05:39 PM Tom_L: i think it's supposed to warm up here too
05:39 PM Tom_L: haven't really checked yet
05:39 PM Tom_L: so we were planning the trip to Savannah again
05:39 PM Tom_L: but may end up in Arizona
05:40 PM Tom_L: seems Gulfstream wants to move them to open a new office
05:40 PM Tom_L: either one seems warmer than here
05:44 PM JT-Shop: yea
05:44 PM JT-Shop: RIP Meatloaf
05:50 PM Tom_L: yum
05:51 PM Tom_L: oh the singer?
05:51 PM Tom_L: didn't know that
05:51 PM JT-Shop: aye the singer
05:53 PM andypugh: XXCoder: The direct-mount ER probe is finished. (I have been working late at work, so it’s gone slowly)
05:54 PM andypugh: https://photos.app.goo.gl/fKzBXQCMnGjcq6Zz8
05:55 PM Tom_L: nice andy
05:55 PM andypugh: https://photos.app.goo.gl/w3HPHjJg8QTBkhWS6
05:55 PM Tom_L: easy to center?
05:55 PM andypugh: Took me days to find a small enough connector for the lead. Ended up machingin down a surface-mount MMCX
05:57 PM andypugh: It’s fairly well centred as it is, but my next project is software centering. Probe a hole, rotate spindle, probe again, solve some simultaneous equations, store as persistent parameters, compensate probe readings based on measured spindle angle…
05:58 PM andypugh: That’s the equations on the piece of paper underneath, in fact.
05:59 PM JT-Shop: nice
06:00 PM JT-Shop: how will you mount it in the spindle?
06:01 PM andypugh: It mounts directly into an ER20 spindle. That’s what it is for.
06:01 PM andypugh: It’s a design specifically for low-daylight routers.
06:02 PM andypugh: It’s ER20 but making it for ER16, 25, 32 would only need a different thread on the back, and a different taper.
06:02 PM JT-Shop: I was wondering about the taper on the OD but now it makes sense
06:03 PM andypugh: https://a360.co/3HHQlHs
06:03 PM andypugh: Is the 3D design
06:05 PM Tom_L: so how does this differ from the renishaw design?
06:05 PM Tom_L: i didn't get a chance to watch the video
06:09 PM andypugh: It uses 9 rods rather than 3 rods and 6 balls.
06:11 PM unterhaus: I'm watching rocky horror in Meatloaf's honor
06:19 PM Lcvette[m]: andypugh: o/
06:19 PM Tom_L: Lcvette[m], what driver do you use on your wireless pendant in linuxcnc?
06:19 PM Lcvette[m]: JT-Shop: JT, i just was playing with your 7i76e configurator
06:19 PM Lcvette[m]: Tom_L: driver?
06:19 PM Tom_L: hal component
06:20 PM * Lcvette[m] posted a file: (2KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/dcIdXmUQiIoBErSlOrUkDEoR/mpg.hal >
06:20 PM Lcvette[m]: Tom_L: ^^^
06:20 PM Lcvette[m]: halfile?
06:20 PM Lcvette[m]: think you helped me build it
06:20 PM Lcvette[m]: works flawlessly
06:21 PM Tom_L: yeah but that's not the driver
06:21 PM Lcvette[m]: oh, do files go through in here?
06:21 PM Lcvette[m]: i don't understand driver
06:21 PM Lcvette[m]: there is not a driver
06:21 PM Lcvette[m]: it hardwires direct into mesa
06:21 PM Lcvette[m]: as if it were a regular wired mpg
06:22 PM Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.8/html/man/man1/xhc-whb04b-6.1.html
06:22 PM Tom_L: as an example
06:22 PM Lcvette[m]: nah
06:22 PM Lcvette[m]: its not usb
06:22 PM Tom_L: ok
06:22 PM Tom_L: i thought it was
06:22 PM Lcvette[m]: has an rf receiver with wired outputs
06:22 PM Tom_L: ok that makes more sense then
06:23 PM Tom_L: i added an A axis to mine :)
06:23 PM * Lcvette[m] uploaded an image: (667KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/UlBkVxNLxgLuNNkGqWvezcna/image.png >
06:24 PM Tom_L: required different scale values since it is measured in degrees
06:24 PM Lcvette[m]: ahy
06:24 PM Tom_L: no extra buttons on yours
06:25 PM Tom_L: spindle, program start etc
06:25 PM Tom_L: tool change
06:25 PM Lcvette[m]: Tom_L: nah, just for jogging
06:25 PM Lcvette[m]: i have touch screen and probe basic
06:25 PM Lcvette[m]: 😀
06:25 PM Lcvette[m]: all the buttons are on the screen right in the front of the machine
06:25 PM Tom_L: yep
06:26 PM Lcvette[m]: andypugh: do you know what type of drive and encoder is needed for absolute encoder use on linuxcnc?
06:26 PM Lcvette[m]: multiturn encoders and modbus?
06:26 PM Lcvette[m]: but is any specific type?
06:27 PM Tom_L: how's the new machine working by now?
06:27 PM Lcvette[m]: its great so far
06:28 PM Lcvette[m]: had some wierdness the other day
06:28 PM Lcvette[m]: it just stopped in the middle of a program for no reason
06:28 PM Lcvette[m]: was in the middle of a normal move
06:28 PM Lcvette[m]: no error, spindle and coolant were still running
06:28 PM Lcvette[m]: did it twice
06:29 PM Lcvette[m]: i was still on the original install from 2018 of deb stretch
06:29 PM Lcvette[m]: so i put a new HD in it and installed the latest stable debian version
06:29 PM Lcvette[m]: has been fine since doing that
06:29 PM Lcvette[m]: but it made me nervous
06:30 PM Lcvette[m]: wondering if the network connection to the 7i92 dropped or something
06:30 PM Lcvette[m]: that was the first bit of wierdness i experience though
06:30 PM Tom_L: hard to say
06:30 PM Lcvette[m]: the pc was also acting up from time to time
06:30 PM Tom_L: time to wiggle the board & memory connections
06:30 PM Lcvette[m]: would start but coldn't move the mouse or would start and could move the mouse, but couldn't open anything
06:31 PM Lcvette[m]: yeah?
06:31 PM Lcvette[m]: i will give that a shot
06:31 PM Tom_L: sometimes helps
06:31 PM Lcvette[m]: but so far on the new install its been fine
06:31 PM Lcvette[m]: i wold like to upgrade it with absolute encoders
06:31 PM Lcvette[m]: and get rid of homing all together
06:32 PM Tom_L: resolvers?
06:32 PM Lcvette[m]: my hardinge lathe with the fanux control has that and its nice
06:32 PM Lcvette[m]: multiturn absolute encoders
06:32 PM Tom_L: huh
06:32 PM Lcvette[m]: battery powered
06:32 PM Tom_L: good til the battery dies...
06:33 PM Lcvette[m]: they keep the encoder active so the position remains
06:33 PM Lcvette[m]: eh replace them once a year
06:33 PM Lcvette[m]: i just replace them on the fanuc lathe
06:33 PM Lcvette[m]: took 2 minutes
06:33 PM Lcvette[m]: just have to do while powered on
06:33 PM Tom_L: right
06:36 PM Lcvette[m]: i have read through a bunch of threads on the topic, but they all seem to die when the thread starter gets it working i guess and no longer bothers to come back and update
06:36 PM Lcvette[m]: hate that
06:37 PM Lcvette[m]: lol
06:37 PM Lcvette[m]: should be an option to suspend help priveledges on the forum for users who don't update the threads with a resolution
06:37 PM Lcvette[m]: /o\
06:51 PM _unreal_: I'm thinking I want to get C channel 4080 extrusion for this build
07:36 PM _unreal_: ok so just ordered 4080 c/u channel
07:37 PM _unreal_: 2x 1000mm for $75 including shipping. not bad
07:37 PM _unreal_: when I get that. I more or less have everything I need for the basic build minus bearings
07:37 PM _unreal_: err
07:37 PM _unreal_: rails
07:38 PM _unreal_: it will be SOOO much bigger then my current home machine
07:50 PM XXCoder: andypugh: nice!
07:50 PM t4nk_freenode: so much bigger than, is that v-slot, _unreal_ ?
07:51 PM _unreal_: vslot?
07:54 PM t4nk_freenode: nah, I was confused with c-beam
07:58 PM _unreal_: it for something that is going to be cut to 28" it should be very strong in the middle
07:58 PM _unreal_: SHOULD
07:59 PM _unreal_: if I'm going to build a larger machine, I cant have it NOT be as rigid as my mini machine
08:01 PM t4nk_freenode: so you will attach a rail to that 4080 extrusion?
08:01 PM _unreal_: yes
08:01 PM _unreal_: it uses TNUTS
08:01 PM _unreal_: makes building a CNC machine VERY easy
08:03 PM _unreal_: I'm more or less going to stack the two extrusions
08:03 PM t4nk_freenode: ah, cheating ;)
08:03 PM _unreal_: no
08:03 PM _unreal_: for something that is going to have 24" on the X
08:04 PM t4nk_freenode: ? only 60cms? that's small
08:04 PM _unreal_: for working travel
08:04 PM _unreal_: I dont need something huge
08:05 PM _unreal_: I just need a machine that is equal to or larger then my laser etcher
08:05 PM t4nk_freenode: larger than
08:05 PM t4nk_freenode: you'd be so proud if you got that
08:06 PM _unreal_: so I can pass milled items back and forth
08:06 PM _unreal_: laser etch smething then cnc it or the other way
08:06 PM _unreal_: I could "put" a laser on the new machine. but I'd rather not introduce smoke to something that is not designed for it
08:07 PM t4nk_freenode: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimg.alicdn.com%2Fimgextra%2Fi1%2F6000000007566%2FO1CN01xWoKpc25lHA4d0Njv_!!6000000007566-0-tbvideo.jpg&f=1&nofb=1
08:07 PM t4nk_freenode: I's thinking of buying that
08:08 PM _unreal_: that is the stuck I just purchased. only the material I ordered is thicker
08:08 PM _unreal_: 3mm thick
08:08 PM t4nk_freenode: but it is v-slot, so you can use wheels on it
08:09 PM t4nk_freenode: like a 3d printer really
08:09 PM _unreal_: I believe most extrusion has that.
08:11 PM t4nk_freenode: no, not the v-slots
08:12 PM t4nk_freenode: but I just can't decide man
08:12 PM t4nk_freenode: *sigh*
08:12 PM _unreal_: what kind of bearings are you looking at
08:12 PM _unreal_: aluminum you need to use poly wheels
08:13 PM _unreal_: you can use metal bearings but they will wear/eat away the aluminum over time
08:13 PM t4nk_freenode: I'm not convinced wheels is what I want
08:13 PM _unreal_: the poly bearings will wear befoe the extrusion will
08:13 PM t4nk_freenode: I want something strong
08:13 PM _unreal_: then you want rails
08:13 PM t4nk_freenode: but then again, the rails will need to be mounted onto something
08:14 PM _unreal_: that rail I ordered will be mounted to .5" 12.7mm thick STEEL plate
08:14 PM t4nk_freenode: and then?
08:14 PM _unreal_: those are the Y arms
08:14 PM _unreal_: they are VERY HEAVY
08:15 PM t4nk_freenode: what will you mount on the beam? a rail?
08:16 PM _unreal_: yes
08:16 PM t4nk_freenode: sbr?
08:16 PM _unreal_: I will ether use the MGA like bearings. or the other kind that is the C style bearing on a big round rail
08:16 PM _unreal_: ya SBR
08:17 PM _unreal_: I'm more likely to go with the MGA type bearings for x
08:17 PM _unreal_: and SBR for Y
08:17 PM _unreal_: SBR will be used on Y
08:18 PM _unreal_: x I'm torn
08:18 PM t4nk_freenode: did you mean mgn?
08:19 PM t4nk_freenode: oh, there's different types
08:20 PM _unreal_: there are a efw different types
08:20 PM roycroft: _unreal_: i have a first assembly drawing of all three axes of my router
08:20 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/CNC-Router/Full-Assembly-Preliminary.jpeg
08:20 PM _unreal_: and yes MGN
08:20 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/CNC-Router/Full-Assembly-Preliminary-Front-View.jpeg
08:20 PM _unreal_: theres mgn, HGR
08:20 PM _unreal_: and many others
08:21 PM roycroft: there will be many changes but i have a good start now
08:21 PM _unreal_: you know you do cad to much when you look at a cad drawing and try to "pan" around
08:21 PM t4nk_freenode: anyhow, those rails aren't cheap _unreal_
08:22 PM _unreal_: nope
08:22 PM t4nk_freenode: what size sbr btw?
08:22 PM _unreal_: roycroft, consider adding MINI rails under your Z
08:22 PM _unreal_: to mount the dust shoe
08:22 PM roycroft: yes, i don't need much for that
08:22 PM _unreal_: that way its independent
08:23 PM roycroft: what i have so far i think will work decently
08:24 PM roycroft: i need to add the ball screws soon
08:24 PM roycroft: and then i'll be able to start tweaking it
08:25 PM _unreal_: roycroft, the C shape on your z carriage is still WAY over aggressive
08:25 PM _unreal_: and your z car should be extended cantilever down.
08:26 PM _unreal_: if anything match it to the z carriage
08:26 PM _unreal_: say about half as tall
08:26 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, the SBR rail will be prob in the 20mm range
08:28 PM roycroft: yes i have not done anything with the z yet
08:28 PM roycroft: i wanted to get the whole machine drawn first, so i would know what kind of clearances i need when i adjust the z
08:29 PM roycroft: the sides on the z are to hold the rails for the dust shoe mechanism
08:29 PM roycroft: they're not there for structural purposes for the spindle
08:29 PM roycroft: but i'm going to give that whole mechanism another think
08:29 PM roycroft: i may completely change it
08:30 PM _unreal_: the shepoko what ever its called has a nice independent dust shoe setup. you may want to take a look at.
08:31 PM _unreal_: shapeoko
08:31 PM roycroft: thanks, i'll do that
08:31 PM roycroft: the gantry sides are a three layer sandwich, and that may also be overkill
08:32 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/CNC-Router/Left-Gantry-Side-Exploded.jpeg
08:32 PM roycroft: pardon the crappy exploded view - i'm not good at that in sw yet
08:32 PM _unreal_: ya one of the shapeoko versions has an adjustable shoe system
08:32 PM roycroft: but i may just ditch the middle layer completely
08:32 PM _unreal_: but just uses thumb screws for setting the hight
08:32 PM roycroft: that might be useful most of the time
08:33 PM roycroft: but having the height adjustable with gcode would be nicer
08:33 PM _unreal_: the shapeoko suckit pro
08:34 PM _unreal_: is one example
08:34 PM _unreal_: just one example
08:34 PM _unreal_: but I would suggest getting 6mm MGN rails
08:35 PM _unreal_: they are TINY TINY like a toy but very strong. and would be great for mailing a dust shoe that can travel and still hold its own if it strikes something "depending"
08:35 PM _unreal_: but at least resist the resistance from the brushes
08:36 PM _unreal_: roycroft, so if you look up "My suckit dust boot z-plus mount
08:36 PM _unreal_: that is the one I was talking about
08:36 PM _unreal_: only set it up with MGN6 or 9mm rails what ever is the smallest
08:37 PM _unreal_: mount it UNDER/BEHIND the main z carriage
08:38 PM roycroft: i don't see mgn6 anywhere, but i've found some mgn7
08:38 PM Bleepshop: roycroft: No shrapnel? No flames? No scorch marks? I agree... That is a crappy exploded view. ;D
08:41 PM roycroft: yeah, it didn't blow up real good
08:46 PM roycroft: i'll have to ponder manual vs. machine adjustment of the dust boot some more
08:47 PM roycroft: for a router, manual adjustment may be just fine
08:47 PM roycroft: and simplifies things significantly
08:47 PM roycroft: but for now, it is time to make dinner, so that is what my focus will be
10:29 PM Lcvette[m]: > _unreal_: i have a first assembly drawing of all three axes of my router
10:29 PM Lcvette[m]: Why are your uprights so swept back? That's just adding a lot of cost for material and reducing rigidity
10:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: streamlined for speed :)
10:30 PM XXCoder: Lcvette[m]: it better covers he bed area. puts tool center right at center of gantry
10:30 PM XXCoder: or yeah speed. should add racing straps for more speed
10:31 PM _unreal_: Lcvette[m], huh?
10:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: build it first, fix it later, how you learn
10:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: always tradeoffs
10:32 PM Lcvette[m]: Also going to be a pain to fixture
10:32 PM _unreal_: Lcvette[m], I have no idea what your talking about, I have not posted any photos
10:32 PM skunkworks: pcw--home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZ6Xuvo6zWs
10:34 PM roycroft: the center of mass of the z axis is centered between the two bearings on the gantry
10:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: saw your vid on the sine wave
10:35 PM roycroft: _unreal_: he was quoting me when i mentioned that to you
10:35 PM * Lcvette[m] uploaded an image: (121KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/AOkJdSTTsmojzrhgzVeijRHT/Screenshot_20220121-231803_Element.jpg >
10:35 PM roycroft: it is pretty standard for moving gantry routers to angle the gantry sides back like that
10:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: and the ML post, how fast is the sine?
10:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sin
10:36 PM skunkworks: only 250hz
10:36 PM skunkworks: 60's tech.. :)
10:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: they make single chip sin/cos to quad chips as well
10:36 PM Tom_itx: they made it to the moon on 60's tech :)
10:36 PM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
10:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ok io saw something about 250Khz, was that just a typo?
10:36 PM * Lcvette[m] uploaded an image: (293KiB) < https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/matrix.org/lJeRxNmtHmtBIpeicNzLnoCS/20130320_180729.jpg >
10:37 PM skunkworks: CaptHindsight[m]: that was the clock of the machine...
10:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ah ok
10:38 PM XXCoder: Lcvette[m]: notice that tool is tiny. its moved back so its in middle of gantry still
10:38 PM Lcvette[m]: This is for our plasma kits, but i wouldn't move the load past vertical edge of the gantry upright
10:38 PM XXCoder: roys spindle is lot bigger
10:39 PM roycroft: yeah, my z axis weighs about 3kg
10:40 PM Lcvette[m]: So?
10:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: do you want 10 bit res from those two sine waves?
10:40 PM roycroft: so it's more important to keep the center of mass centered between the gantry bearings
10:41 PM XXCoder: yep. avoids few ponental sources of nodding
10:41 PM roycroft: if it's forward it will put a lot of stress on the bearings
10:41 PM Lcvette[m]: The head on my vmc weighs 1000+lbs and hands over the bed
10:41 PM roycroft: but please keep in mind that what i posted is a first rough drawing
10:41 PM Lcvette[m]: No it won't
10:42 PM Lcvette[m]: Not even enough to make them notice
10:42 PM Lcvette[m]: Your using linear rails?
10:42 PM roycroft: lcvvette: i do not know a lot about designing machines, but you are literally the first person i've ever spoken with or read or seen videos who claims that it does not matter
10:42 PM roycroft: yes, i'll be using linear rails
10:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: https://www.ichaus.de/keyword/Encoder%20iCs
10:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: heidenhain also makes sin/cos to TTL incremental out , find them on ebay for $100
10:44 PM roycroft: and i'm not saying you're wrong
10:44 PM Lcvette[m]: The load rating on those linear rails is so far over your gantry weight including the dynamic loads from acceleration and deceleration
10:45 PM roycroft: isn't it going to be harder to move if it's unbalanced?
10:45 PM skunkworks: CaptHindsight[m]: not really like anyting out there that I know of...
10:45 PM skunkworks: https://photos.app.goo.gl/rUGE7NsKFZ4v312y7
10:45 PM Lcvette[m]: No
10:45 PM Lcvette[m]: Not at all
10:46 PM roycroft: i could gain 100mm if i did not have to sweep it back like that
10:46 PM roycroft: 100mm that i could really use
10:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: how long is the scale? looks like ~10 inches?
10:47 PM roycroft: so don't think i'm doing that because i really want to do it
10:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: I can send you a glass scale if you want one
10:47 PM Lcvette[m]: The dynamic loading is going to come from the height of the mass above its connection point and be multiplied by the accelerationand deceleration. The height is a lever multiplier the mass is what's multiplied
10:47 PM skunkworks: I think they are 10 inch sections. (they are all lined up in a row..)
10:48 PM Lcvette[m]: Dad weight hanging slightly off center will not contribute nearly as much as those factors
10:48 PM Lcvette[m]: s/Dad/The/
10:48 PM skunkworks: CaptHindsight[m]: thanks - we could always use something different - but it would be a pain to install new ones. These are already in there and thought it would be neat to see if we could get them working..
10:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: what is the total length?
10:49 PM skunkworks: 38,36,24
10:49 PM roycroft: i am keeping the height as low as possible - i know that's the bigger factor
10:49 PM Lcvette[m]: It's OK you're not the first to underestimate the strength of steel
10:49 PM roycroft: it's not steel
10:49 PM roycroft: it's aluminium
10:49 PM Lcvette[m]: It is for rigidity
10:50 PM Lcvette[m]: But i think you've lost the benefit by increasing the distance from the connection point by sweeping it back
10:50 PM Lcvette[m]: Distance is distance whether it's up or slanted back
10:50 PM roycroft: i do wonder, though, why virtually every commercial moving gantry cnc router has the gantry swept back like that if it matters very little
10:51 PM roycroft: perhaps i should not say "virtually every"
10:51 PM roycroft: but instead "the majority"
10:51 PM Lcvette[m]: Shorter screws and trails on y
10:51 PM roycroft: i haven't kept a score card
10:52 PM Lcvette[m]: s/trails/rails/
10:52 PM roycroft: huh?
10:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: 250Hz since wave with 10 bit resolution, so you'll have to sample at 500Khz at 10b
10:52 PM roycroft: if my gantry were upright i'd be able to shorten the y axis
10:52 PM Lcvette[m]: Our is that x
10:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: well beyond arduino
10:52 PM roycroft: the gantry runs along the y axis
10:52 PM XXCoder: mine dont sweep back, but then its very cheap machine
10:52 PM Lcvette[m]: Ok
10:53 PM roycroft: if i made my gantry upright i'd be moving the spindle forward 100mm
10:54 PM Lcvette[m]: Perfect
10:54 PM roycroft: the spindle would still fit within the footprint of the gantry bearings
10:54 PM roycroft: but i'd gain 100mm
10:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: https://www.ichaus.de/PI
10:54 PM XXCoder: yep and bed would be partially inaccessable at back, and go over front
10:54 PM Lcvette[m]: Gives you some over travel for virtue tool rack
10:54 PM Lcvette[m]: s/virtue/future/
10:54 PM skunkworks: CaptHindsight[m]: these work by measuring the difference of the 2 square waves..
10:54 PM XXCoder: and the wasted space?
10:55 PM Lcvette[m]: Good place to mount the rotary axis
10:55 PM roycroft: this is a router, not a milling machine
10:55 PM Lcvette[m]: Is whatever you use it for
10:55 PM roycroft: and i do not intend on doing any 3d operations on it
10:55 PM roycroft: yes, and i'm telling you what i'm going to use it for
10:56 PM roycroft: i'll never put a rotary axis on this machine
10:56 PM roycroft: if i need that feature it will be on a new machine
10:56 PM XXCoder: nothing preventing roy from making expansion outside bed anyway if not new machine
10:56 PM roycroft: i don't like to say "never" about things, generally
10:56 PM skunkworks: so - I really only need a counter - that could count in a 250hz period.
10:57 PM roycroft: but i have some severe space limitations for this machine, and a machining footprint that i can barely make work as it is
10:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: I'd grab it at the coils. Do they convert voltage to frequency for the square wave?
10:57 PM skunkworks: If I want .0001 resolution - a 250kz counter would work
10:57 PM skunkworks: khz
10:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: I have to rewatch the video
10:58 PM roycroft: that swept back gantry would be a lot of work to make
10:58 PM Lcvette[m]: If the over hangs the back or the back is longer what the difference?
10:58 PM roycroft: i *really* am not doing it because i want to
10:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: that only makes sense IF the machine only moves at one rate of speed
10:58 PM skunkworks: just trigger on the rising edge of one of the input square waves - count until the rising edge of the returned square wave.
10:59 PM skunkworks: that would give you the reletive postion within the .1" pin
10:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: what happens if you move the machine at 1mm/min?
10:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or 0.1"/minute
10:59 PM skunkworks: I did some quick math - seemed like at 200ipm I would get about 10 samples..
11:00 PM skunkworks: (the fastest the machine moves)
11:00 PM skunkworks: 10 samples per pin.
11:00 PM Lcvette[m]: roycroft: it was just an observation, i design alot of things for machines and i would not do that but that doesn't mean it won't work, just will cost more and add complexity to make i think. For not really any tangible benefit
11:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: isn't the sine wave produced by moving the coils past the 0.1" spaced iron tabs?
11:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: so the fast the movement the higher the frequency?
11:01 PM skunkworks: no
11:01 PM roycroft: i should also mention that when i add the screws and motors, the center of mass of the upper part will shift to the rear a bit, so i would move the upper assembly forward to maintain the center of mass
11:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: s/fast/faster/
11:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ah, I better go back and watch the video
11:02 PM skunkworks: think of it as a resolver in reverse.
11:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sorry I'm still half brain dead from Covid
11:02 PM roycroft: lcvette: that is why i posted the drawings
11:02 PM skunkworks: lol - I bareley understand it :)
11:02 PM roycroft: to get feedback from folks who know more about machine design than me
11:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogUdjX3zerY
11:03 PM Lcvette[m]: I would not worry about mass on that machine it's going to be quite light from the looks of it
11:03 PM XXCoder: what I thought too till I was told the thickness of plates
11:04 PM Lcvette[m]: What size rails?
11:04 PM Lcvette[m]: For x
11:04 PM roycroft: 20mm
11:04 PM Lcvette[m]: Lol
11:04 PM Lcvette[m]: Your fine
11:04 PM XXCoder: huh he dont own fine?
11:05 PM roycroft: i'm not sure i'm fine, but thanks for the vote of confidence :)
11:05 PM Lcvette[m]: * You're fine
11:05 PM roycroft: my design may be
11:05 PM Lcvette[m]: Your concerned about the mass so here is the important question
11:05 PM roycroft: i could be stark raving mad
11:06 PM Lcvette[m]: 2 blocks per upright or 1?
11:06 PM roycroft: two
11:06 PM roycroft: and i'm not concerned at all that it will be tippy
11:06 PM Lcvette[m]: Have you checked the load rating of a 20mm rail
11:06 PM roycroft: i know it won't
11:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: if they convert that to a 250Hz sine and you want 10 bit res, then yeah you need to count at 1,000X the 250Hz
11:07 PM roycroft: my main concern is loading the bearings more if it's upright than if the mass is centered
11:08 PM roycroft: and not that it's beyond or even remotely approaching their spec
11:08 PM roycroft: just that it might be a bit harder to move the gantry along the rails if the mass is not balanced
11:08 PM roycroft: which means i might not be able to move it as quickly
11:09 PM roycroft: i don't think that's an invalid concern
11:09 PM roycroft: but you indicate that it's a very minor one
11:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: https://www.ddc-web.com/en/download/9/documentation
11:16 PM Lcvette[m]: roycroft: the dynamic load rating of an hgr20 trail and block set is 27Kn
11:17 PM Lcvette[m]: I'm very confident you're not approaching that
11:17 PM roycroft: as i said, that's not a concern of mine at all
11:17 PM Lcvette[m]: s/trail/rail/
11:18 PM Lcvette[m]: In order to permanently deform the balls you would need to exceed that moment
11:18 PM Lcvette[m]: For a period of time
11:18 PM roycroft: again, no concerns about that
11:18 PM XXCoder: Lcvette[m]: why are you pressing that? roycroft said repeatively said its not a concern
11:19 PM Lcvette[m]: Than in missing your concern
11:19 PM roycroft: although these blocks will be coming from china
11:19 PM roycroft: i may want to replace the balls on day one
11:19 PM roycroft: with real ones :)
11:19 PM Lcvette[m]: > my main concern is loading the bearings more if it's upright than if the mass is centered
11:19 PM Lcvette[m]: Because this is conflicting
11:19 PM roycroft: my main concern is that it will be harder to push the gantry if it's unbalanced
11:19 PM XXCoder: roy yeah though you probably could measure em and keep conforming ones and ditch non
11:19 PM roycroft: and i want it to be as easy to move as possible
11:20 PM Lcvette[m]: The coefficient of fiction will not change enough to be measurable
11:20 PM Lcvette[m]: s/fiction/friction/
11:20 PM roycroft: ok, well that is what addresses my concern
11:21 PM roycroft: and now i think you understand why i designed it the way i did
11:21 PM Lcvette[m]: I do
11:23 PM Lcvette[m]: And now you know your concerns were unwarranted. And you can be freed to design now that you are armed with the math
11:23 PM XXCoder: so hes free to design his own?
11:23 PM XXCoder: isnt that precisely what he did?
11:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://youtu.be/LFR0YdFfQtM?t=418
11:25 PM roycroft: i appreciate your insights, lcvette
11:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: I'd just reuse the coils and make a new circuit to measure the phase diff
11:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: low pass filter the coils to the highest speed the machine moves, get it into digital ASAP
11:28 PM Lcvette[m]: XXCoder: of course, and now withoutthe unfounded preconceived constraints
11:29 PM Lcvette[m]: roycroft: sure
11:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: add index and then map the current scales
11:29 PM Lcvette[m]: s/XXCoder: of course, and now withoutthe unfounded preconceived constraints/XXCoder: of course, and now without the unfounded preconceived constraints/
11:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: see how far out they are from 0.001"
11:30 PM Lcvette[m]: I'm sure it will be a cool build regardless, the design
11:31 PM roycroft: i don't want it to be a cool build
11:31 PM Lcvette[m]: s/I'm sure it will be a cool build regardless, the design/I'm sure it will be a cool build regardless of the design path you choose/
11:31 PM roycroft: i want it to do the job i need it to do as effeciently and economically as i can possibly make it
11:31 PM Lcvette[m]: Oh then that.. 😀
11:31 PM roycroft: thanks :)
11:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: skunkworks: i wonder how close they are after 60 years
11:32 PM roycroft: i just want to be clear that this is not a fun hobby build
11:32 PM roycroft: i'm building it to make money with it
11:33 PM Lcvette[m]: Ok
11:33 PM Lcvette[m]: What's your build time?
11:33 PM roycroft: i'd like to have it done by some time this coming summer
11:34 PM roycroft: i'm giving myself another month to work on the design
11:34 PM Lcvette[m]: Do you have a product already?
11:34 PM roycroft: my engineering training was over 40 years ago, and i've lost most of that knowledge
11:34 PM roycroft: no
11:35 PM Lcvette[m]: Ah
11:35 PM roycroft: and the machine is actually not going to be for making product
11:35 PM roycroft: it's going to be used, at first at least, to make jigs/fixtures for the woodworking business that i'm starting
11:36 PM XXCoder: someday you may be able to hire me, roy lol
11:37 PM roycroft: maybe
11:37 PM roycroft: if you're willing to trade swarf for sawdust
11:37 PM XXCoder: pay is pay
11:38 PM roycroft: lcvette: this machine will actually be two routers
11:38 PM Lcvette[m]: roycroft: i see so it will be a tool in the shop rather than for production
11:38 PM roycroft: overhead it will be a cnc router
11:38 PM roycroft: yes
11:39 PM roycroft: but it will also be a conventional woodworking router table, with a second spindle below the table
11:40 PM roycroft: the idea is that i'll be using the overhead cnc spindle to make templates that i'll be able to use with the conventional router table, amongst other things
11:40 PM roycroft: when i was making mostly square/straight line products, it was easy to make the templates/jigs
11:41 PM roycroft: but i'm starting to design things with a lot of curves, and it takes a long time to make curved templates that match up well
11:41 PM roycroft: a cnc router would make that trivial to do
11:41 PM Lcvette[m]: Would it not be better to make the parts on the router?
11:41 PM roycroft: and it will be a good learning machine for cnc routing operations
11:42 PM roycroft: no, because many of the operations will take place after the product is partially/fully assembled
11:42 PM roycroft: and it would be difficult to fixture, at least
11:42 PM roycroft: and likely too big for the cnc router
11:42 PM Lcvette[m]: That way you are fed up to work on design or other operations
11:43 PM Lcvette[m]: Need a bigger router and vacuum table
11:45 PM Lcvette[m]: oh, you said said you had space constraint concerns
11:45 PM roycroft: yes, i have space constraints
11:45 PM Lcvette[m]: So maybe not the right direction
11:45 PM roycroft: and this machine is already too big :)
11:45 PM Lcvette[m]: Lol
11:45 PM Lcvette[m]: Never! Hahaha
11:46 PM roycroft: ok, i did a quick scan, and i don't have any really good examples of what would be difficult to make on a cnc router
11:46 PM roycroft: but here's one thing, and this is actually the product that made me start thining of a cnc router to do the templates
11:46 PM roycroft: https://roycroft.us/Drawer-Pulls/DrawerPulls2.jpeg
11:47 PM roycroft: the front sides of those drawer pulls are convex
11:47 PM roycroft: and the radius needs to vary as the length of the pull varies
11:47 PM roycroft: the ones in that picture all have the same radius, because i had to make the router templates for them manually
11:48 PM roycroft: and it was a lot of work, and i did not want to duplicate that work for every size
11:48 PM roycroft: those would be difficult to make on a cnc router, but with the proper templates and jigs, easy to make on a router table
11:49 PM roycroft: the templates would be trivial to make on a cnc router, and i would make a set for every size if i had a cnc router
11:50 PM Lcvette[m]: Yeah
11:51 PM roycroft: i said that i do not plan on using the router for production at first
11:51 PM roycroft: if i find operations that i can do with the cnc router more efficiently than doing them manually i'll certainly be willing to do that
11:51 PM roycroft: but i see the cnc router as "a tool"
11:51 PM Lcvette[m]: Cnc is great for doing lots of the same thing
11:51 PM roycroft: not "the tool"
11:52 PM roycroft: if the thing lends itself to that
11:52 PM roycroft: and maybe there is a fairly easy way to make those drawer pulls on a cnc router
11:52 PM roycroft: but that requires machining operations on five sides of the parts
11:53 PM roycroft: and they would be rather awkward to fixture
11:53 PM Lcvette[m]: Where the time for setup and fixtures is worthwhile to let the machine run and make a table full of parts
11:54 PM roycroft: i have some other examples of the types of templates that i want to make with the cnc router, but i don't have them online in a way that i can push pics/drawings easily right now
11:54 PM Lcvette[m]: Is there a flat side?
11:55 PM Lcvette[m]: Are they sitting on a flat side?
11:56 PM roycroft: yes
11:56 PM roycroft: the bottom is flat
11:56 PM Lcvette[m]: If so, those would be ideal for putting on a rotary tombstone setup that have you access to what looks like all machinable requirements
11:57 PM Lcvette[m]: s/have/gave/
11:57 PM roycroft: if you look at that link again the pull in the bottom of the picture is turned on its side
11:57 PM roycroft: you can see the flat bottom
11:59 PM roycroft: but the thing is
11:59 PM roycroft: those drawer pulls are not intended to be the product
11:59 PM roycroft: i.e. i'm not going to be making large numbers each of several sizes
11:59 PM roycroft: they are just parts for a piece of furniture
11:59 PM roycroft: i'm likely to make 1 or 2 or 4 each of several sizes for a particular project