#linuxcnc Logs
Nov 15 2021
#linuxcnc Calendar
02:07 AM Deejay: moin
02:28 AM randy: morning
03:38 AM sadara: XXCoder, just... why?
03:38 AM XXCoder: you need to add one more word - not. ;)
03:43 AM sensille: secure connection
03:44 AM XXCoder: thats not 1 word lol
04:20 AM Tom_L: morning
05:17 AM JT-Cave: morning
07:41 AM Tom_L: 45F hi 70
07:42 AM Tom_L: at least we're getting a decent fall instead of jumping right into winter
07:50 AM JT-Cave: yeah nice days ahead here
08:46 AM JT-Shop: so Biden canceled all oil leases in the US and now there is an crude shortage! Way to GO
08:50 AM Orki: Hey there, any news when linuxcnc 2.9 will be in the Debian repos ? My Debian Bullseye install is waiting for it to show up, don´t want to compile linuxcnc from source because of all the dependencies
08:56 AM JT-Shop: so get ready for $10 a gallon gas... when you can get it!
09:06 AM JT-Cave: Orki, you still have to install all the dependencies... and how hard is it to right click on a deb and select open with gdebi?
09:08 AM Orki: Didn´t know that there are prebuilt packages for bullseye, to my understanding there are only packages for Buster available ?
09:10 AM JT-Cave: should be on the buildbot
09:14 AM Orki: Only up to Buster, theres nothing stated about Bullseye
09:14 AM Orki: Master branch (development - 2.9)
09:14 AM Orki:
09:14 AM Orki: Buster (arch: amd64)
09:14 AM Orki: uspace: realtime with RT-Preempt, and simulation
09:14 AM Orki: deb http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/ buster master-rtpreempt
09:19 AM JT-Shop: I guess Seb has not built one then
09:21 AM smoe: @Orki, the package for Debian was just today returned to us to fix the copyright declarations for various subdirectories that are not native to LinuxCNC.
09:22 AM smoe: We had these initial two (?) weeks of wait and I expect that once we have addressed these issues and have reuploaded, we will not need to wait any longer than that again.
09:38 AM Stephan[m]1: smoe Nice to hear and really exciting (at least for me), as until now i tried linuxcnc only via the ISO as a live system and via the emulation. Theres a linuxcnc package in the Archlinux repo which i installed on my Arch system, but theres no RT kernel and i tried to compile one from source but that went not well...after 4 hours my system stoped the compilation, as the kernel already 11GB...thats crazy. So to make it short, i installed
09:38 AM Stephan[m]1: Debian Bullseye on another partition, just for Linuxcnc as aindependent system...RT kernel already installed, but i didnt want to mess arround again with compiling and dependencies......again, really excited that it will be in the repo in short time :-)
09:39 AM Stephan[m]1: Thanks for your work !!
09:42 AM Stephan[m]1: Orki == Stephan, IRC == Matrix
10:09 AM Centurion_Dan1 is now known as Centurion_Dan
10:15 AM CaptHindsight[m]: will the screensaver/blanking and screenlock be OFF by default? :)
10:20 AM CaptHindsight[m]: JT-Shop: Source? All I found https://www.newsweek.com/biden-admin-set-auction-off-over-80-million-acres-offshore-drilling-1649242
10:26 AM roycroft: Did anyone watch the 60 minutes report last night about the supply chain problem?
10:27 AM roycroft: I learned something that puzzles me greatly, and I wonder if I'm overlooking something
10:28 AM roycroft: According to their report, the big problem with moving goods is that there is an excess of empty containers that are not going back overseas
10:28 AM roycroft: That part I knew already
10:28 AM roycroft: But what they reported is that a major effect of this glut of empty containers is that there is now a shortage of trailers to haul the full containers off the docks
10:29 AM roycroft: Apparently the empty containers are sitting on trailers in trucking yards and elsewhere, and now there are not enough trailers
10:30 AM roycroft: My immediate thought was "Why don't the trucking companies pick the containers up off the trailers and put them in a pile, so the trailers can go back and pick up new containers?"
10:30 AM CaptHindsight[m]: temporarily not enough trailers and drivers
10:30 AM roycroft: Am I missing something there?
10:30 AM CloudEvil:
10:30 AM CloudEvil:
10:30 AM CloudEvil:
10:30 AM CloudEvil:
10:30 AM CloudEvil: It's a fun shitshow.
10:30 AM CloudEvil: There is not a 'the companies'
10:30 AM roycroft: The shortage of drivers is definitely a big problem
10:30 AM CloudEvil: Much of it is wholly deregulated, and there is noone in charge that could do that.
10:31 AM CloudEvil: AIUI anywya.
10:31 AM roycroft: It's making driving difficult, as there are so many new truck drivers, the roads are hazardous
10:31 AM roycroft: They are unskilled, and drive dangerously
10:31 AM roycroft: And VERY slowly - I can't believe how many trucks I get stuck behind these days
10:32 AM roycroft: I drive at the speed limit, and am used to being passed by trucks
10:32 AM CaptHindsight[m]: why don't expressways instantly unclog and go right back to 55 when the accident is cleared?
10:32 AM CloudEvil: Ideally you'd have a system where 'oh fuck, containers are costing $15K, not $1K to ship from china to US, let us apply some of that profit (or reduce this cost) to the bottlenecks in the supply chain.
10:32 AM CloudEvil: The problem is the people getting the $14K extra are quite happy with that, and have no incentive to pass it on to the bottlenecked parts.
10:33 AM roycroft: It doesn't matter if a container is being hauled by an independent operator or by a large trucking company (and there are both, not one or the other)
10:33 AM CaptHindsight[m]: yup
10:33 AM roycroft: If you have a trailer that has an empty container on it, and you can't pick up another load because your trailer is occupied, unoccupy your trailer
10:33 AM CaptHindsight[m]: we are not in this together
10:34 AM roycroft: There are fork lifts/front end loaders/hoists all over the place
10:34 AM roycroft: Pick the damn thing up and set it on the ground
10:34 AM roycroft: Then go back to the dock and get another container
10:34 AM CloudEvil: In order for 'them' to be able to put it into a pile, you need to have a pile owner, who is allowed to have containers on their land. There needs to be agreement between the container owners and shippers and ... to do this, ...
10:34 AM CloudEvil: And all that regulation just isn't there.
10:35 AM roycroft: This is a problem that should be able to be solved easily
10:35 AM roycroft: I still don't understand why the shippers are refusing to send empty containers back, but that should not matter, for now
10:35 AM CaptHindsight[m]: it would be too much to ask to just tell people to relax and things will catch up
10:35 AM CaptHindsight[m]: no you don't NEED shit for xmas
10:35 AM roycroft: When the exporting countries run out of empty containers that will be a problem
10:36 AM CloudEvil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERqikbfoLnw I recommend.
10:36 AM CaptHindsight[m]: they won't run out
10:36 AM roycroft: If they were going to run out they would be asking the cargo ships to bring some back
10:36 AM CloudEvil: How to Clear the Ports of Los Angeles/Long Beach in Five Steps | What's Going on With Shipping goes into some of the issues
10:37 AM CaptHindsight[m]: we can start selling them back the containers and it's only 3-4 weeks until they arrive back
10:37 AM CloudEvil: There is no 'they' or a 'they' they can ask.
10:37 AM roycroft: Step 1: remove the windfall profits being generated by the current mess.
10:37 AM CaptHindsight[m]: nah
10:38 AM CaptHindsight[m]: are you nuts?
10:38 AM CloudEvil: The problem with step 1 is the shipping companies pass all costs along in the default contract, so it's really problematic to get that done.
10:38 AM CloudEvil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwtsTfnGMb4 I also recommend.
10:38 AM CloudEvil: Who Put the Ports of Los Angeles/Long Beach in Charge of National Policy?
10:39 AM CaptHindsight[m]: just tell everyone to stop buying things they don't need for a while
10:40 AM CloudEvil: All of the useful regulation that was put in place post WWI/2 in the US to avoid another shipping crisis in the event of disruption gradually got deleted in the name of efficiency. (Not a solely US problem of course)
10:40 AM CaptHindsight[m]: just ship the necessaries for survival
10:42 AM CaptHindsight[m]: why does anyone think that any of this is setup for your convenience?
10:42 AM CloudEvil: Some firms are saying 'fuck it'. Amazon has a whole ship now, with amazon branded containers.
10:43 AM CaptHindsight[m]: it's only made convenient for consumers to spend their money
10:44 AM CaptHindsight[m]: consumers also don't care about others, look how they support Amazon vs local businesses
10:44 AM roycroft: I agree completely that having a zillion local, autonomouse port authorities is a major part of the problem
10:45 AM * roycroft suggests that perhaps not depending on foreign imports so much may be in the best interest of the country
10:46 AM CloudEvil: Burn the witch.
10:46 AM CaptHindsight[m]: why China says that their system of guberment is more nimble that the system in the USA
10:47 AM CaptHindsight[m]: democracy moves too slow to change
10:49 AM CaptHindsight[m]: "Hey everybody lets just skip xmas this year and focus on getting herd immunity and everyone back on our feet"....
10:52 AM CaptHindsight[m]: imagine assigning priority to shipments coming in based on necessity
10:54 AM roycroft: I would not know, as we do not live in a democracy
10:55 AM CaptHindsight[m]: sorry I meant democracy
10:56 AM roycroft: It looks like we're going to get part of that storm that's socked British Columbia later on today
10:56 AM CaptHindsight[m]: or lets try democracy*
10:56 AM roycroft: We have high wind warnings for this evening
10:59 AM CaptHindsight[m]: the weather tends to change, except for maybe in Wichita
11:00 AM CaptHindsight[m]: today: windy, tomorrow: windy, next week: windy with more winds
11:01 AM CaptHindsight[m]: the temp varies a bit, especially when it's windy
11:02 AM roycroft: we're forecast to get 10mm of rain today
11:02 AM roycroft: which is a lot
11:02 AM roycroft: parts of british columbia are forecast to get an additional 30cm of rain today
11:03 AM roycroft: which is an insane amount
11:04 AM CaptHindsight[m]: that would be like 3m of snow
11:04 AM roycroft: yes
11:05 AM roycroft: there were two huge mudslides yesterday evening on a major highway in bc
11:05 AM roycroft: several cars were buried
11:05 AM roycroft: but as well, over 100 cars are trapped between the two mudslides, and are in danger of being buried themselves should there be further mudslides
11:06 AM roycroft: supposedly helicopters will be evacuating those people this morning
11:06 AM roycroft: we need rain, sure - we've been in a drought for the past decade
11:07 AM roycroft: but this may be a bit too much
11:08 AM roycroft: I went for a hike yesterday on a popular local trail that is usually in good condition year-round
11:08 AM roycroft: hardly anyone was there, which I found odd, until I started up the trail and found it was pure mud
11:08 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.delish.com/cooking/recipe-ideas/a30212606/mudslide-cocktail-recipe/
11:18 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://github.com/scottalford75/Remora/releases/tag/1.1.0
11:49 AM JT-Cave: CaptHindsight[m], my brother drives a tanker truck hauling gas in south Louisiana
11:51 AM JT-Cave: he picks up gas from 5 refineries and one or two is shut down every week because they can't get feed stock
11:53 AM cradek: I think I solved the runaways on my coil winder by blowing dust out of the Z encoder
11:54 AM JT-Cave: sometimes I have to tap the Z encoder on the CHNC with a rubber hammer to make it work...
11:54 AM cradek: haha that's even worse
11:54 AM aaroncnc: so i am running into a bit of hal logic problem. i need to send my spindle signal into an abs component but only when its set to go counter clockwise. is there a way in hal to add a logic like this?
11:54 AM JT-Cave: worse because I don't have a clue why
11:55 AM cradek: can you describe the problem instead of your proposed solution? maybe there's a simple solution
11:59 AM aaroncnc: so i am using remora and it uses a 0-100 value via spi to control my spindle. i also have a pid loop. the problem is the pid loop can go negative and leads to a runaway as remora takes the negative has no idea and go full bore. so everything is passed into a limit with a min of 0 and a max of 100. the issue is if i always pass the value into abs it would turn -10 into positive and thus bypassing the limit and lead to a possible
11:59 AM aaroncnc: runaway. I should only need the abs when i need to run the spindle in the other direction.
12:02 PM cradek: ok your control takes 0-100 for spindle speed, but how does it specify direction? a separate signal?
12:04 PM aaroncnc: yes
12:04 PM cradek: I have never had any good result trying to use pid for spindle. if it's at all linear you might be able to use just the scale component instead (it gives scale and offset)
12:05 PM cradek: do you know about motion.spindle-speed-out-abs? it is always positive, and the bits motion.spindle-forward and spindle-reverse give direction
12:14 PM aaroncnc: cradek, no i did not i pulled up the docs for it and am looking at it now.
12:34 PM aaroncnc: cradek, this should work. Thanks!
01:06 PM cradek: welcome!
01:19 PM JT-Shop: yippie one machine done! Kawasaki assembly machine is done... on to the next one
01:38 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, that wouldn't be part of B&S is it?
01:41 PM JT-Shop: Kawasaki?
01:41 PM Tom_L: yeah
01:41 PM Tom_L: or just competing neighbors...
01:42 PM JT-Shop: I have no clue where Kasasaki is, the assembly machine is going to a sister plant for Revere Plastics
01:42 PM Tom_L: ahh
01:43 PM JT-Shop: that plant doesn't have the resources (Rebous and me) like this plant does
01:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://i.imgur.com/yRlHCIu.jpg +- 1/900,000 rev repeatability ( 0.0004 deg) on this rotary positioner
02:27 PM JT-Shop: it's not very productive to step on the string on the bottom of a feed bag full of trash while you carry it out...
02:31 PM perry_j1987: lol
02:31 PM perry_j1987: bombs away
02:34 PM JT-Shop: it's like WTF OH CRAP
02:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0POjjIC5xs
02:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: position control is ~3:00 minutes
02:46 PM JT-Shop: how can you create an iso from a sd card in linux?
02:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Tom_L: what is the going price for the indexer without the motor? $300
02:49 PM unterhausen: the dentist used the coolest little torque wrench on my new tooth today. I felt it click
02:49 PM perry_j1987: you can use dd to do that JT-Shop
02:49 PM unterhausen: bad news is he only checked to make sure it was set right after he used it
02:49 PM JT-Shop: ah ok
02:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.newport.com/p/RV120HAHL $13k new with motor
02:59 PM roycroft: Now the lack of a single nylon nut is impeding my progress with my mill
03:04 PM JT-Shop: I can email you one...
03:07 PM roycroft: i'm sure i can print one, but it would not be nylon - it would be petg, and it would almost certainly not work very well
03:07 PM roycroft: For nylon fasteners I always order what I need
03:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: machine one from an old soccer cleat
03:07 PM roycroft: I think it's time to bring in a nice assortment and keep that stocked
03:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: adidas
03:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Adidas uses nylon 6.6
03:10 PM roycroft: I need a single 6-32 nylon nut
03:11 PM roycroft: All the assortments I find online are metric
03:11 PM roycroft: If I go to McMaster I get to buy 100 of each size, and my assortment is now $150 instead of $12, and I'll have a lifetime supply of everything
03:12 PM roycroft: Were that there was a decent fastener store here
03:12 PM roycroft: The one I started going to right when I moved here now have a $200 minimum order for Will-Call
03:13 PM roycroft: They weren't making enough money, so they decided to shed most of their customer base
03:17 PM roycroft: Perhaps my best approach for today is to make an insulator sheet to go under the pcb where the fastener will touch it
03:18 PM JT-Shop: mcmaster usually has assortments of fasteners
03:19 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight[m], yes approx..
03:20 PM JT-Shop: hmm no plastic nut assortments
03:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: a well trained obedient consumer would just Amamazon
03:20 PM roycroft: time to try my os upgrade again
03:20 PM JT-Shop: https://www.amazon.com/Electronics-Salon-Nylon-Screw-Washer-Assortment/dp/B01G056FRK
03:20 PM roycroft: it failed last night
03:21 PM roycroft: for a stupid and obscure reason - a directory hierarchy had too many files
03:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: JT-Shop: whats the minimum cost these days for a small box UPS or Fedex Ground?
03:21 PM roycroft: i cleared them out and now it shoud work
03:22 PM roycroft: yeah, that's metric, jt-shop
03:22 PM roycroft: The only assortments I find are metric
03:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I look for bargains on ebay for nylon fasteners and standoffs, takes several weeks from China
03:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's always a surprise when they arrive months later
03:24 PM perry_j1987: roycroft just 3d print the nut
03:25 PM perry_j1987: roycroft you can print with weed waker line
03:25 PM JT-Shop: CaptHindsight[m], I don't use Fedex, in the usa or international?
03:25 PM * JT-Shop thought roycroft liked metric :)
03:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: within the USA
03:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: same as USPS priority flat or more?
03:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: JT-Shop: ^^
03:30 PM roycroft: I like what is appopriate for the job at hand, JT-Shop
03:31 PM roycroft: I don't see either US Customary or Metric as inherently superior to the other
03:32 PM JT-Shop: for 1 pound the rates are the same iirc above 3 pounds and ups is cheaper
03:33 PM JT-Shop: roycroft, I know that I'm just messing with you :)
03:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: how about a steel nut and some hot melt to make it locking?
03:35 PM roycroft: I'm not looking for a nylock nut
03:35 PM roycroft: I have plent of those
03:35 PM roycroft: I'm looking for a nylon nut, because it will be touching a component lead on a PCB
03:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: machinable hot melt round stock https://www.gluegun.com/collections/glue-sticks/products/power-tec-bond-7784-polyamide-glue-sticks?variant=40833016037529
03:39 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I've used PP or HDPE cutting boards for stock as well
03:41 PM roycroft: i'm leaning towards gluing a thin sheet of mica to the underside of the pcb
03:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: does it need to be thermally conductive but not electrically conductive?
03:49 PM Tom_L: kapton
03:50 PM Tom_L: just the opposite maybe
03:54 PM JT-Shop: just got two more projects... small but nice
03:55 PM Tom_L: 2 new ones?
03:55 PM Tom_L: thought you already had a backlog
03:55 PM Tom_L: and a stack of logs
03:58 PM JT-Shop: I have to put a rpi3 in a couple of vibratory welders... pays $750 each and takes a couple of hours!
03:59 PM Tom_L: yeah i'd be all for that too :)
04:00 PM XXCoder: nice
04:01 PM JT-Shop: and I have all the parts I need except one din rail mount outlet
04:18 PM unterhausen: I am not going to make washers for anybody
04:19 PM unterhausen: Okay, I might for $20 apiece.
04:19 PM unterhausen: client just asked me to make washers
04:21 PM XXCoder: lol company i used to work at made $75 washers
04:22 PM XXCoder: of course, it was inocel washer for extreme envorment
04:27 PM _unreal_: this weekend was kind of cool got a bunch of PC expansion cards
04:27 PM _unreal_: some old audio and video cards
04:44 PM unterhausen: he needs 8 washers, so I figure I can cut them out of a stainless rod and do okay at $20 each
04:46 PM XXCoder: sounds strightforward. make a long rod drill though it to spec then cutoff each to slight excess, then finish other side to clean
04:49 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
04:49 PM unterhausen: hopefully get a good surface from the cutoff blade
04:50 PM XXCoder: sorry client crashed
04:50 PM unterhausen: roycroft did you use the 64 bit image on your pi4?
04:50 PM XXCoder: yeah that'd save a step
05:01 PM roycroft: i did not get that far yet, unterhausen, and that project has been sidelined temporarily
05:02 PM roycroft: I did install a 64 bit kernel on the pi at one point, but I've not run LinuxCNC with that kernel yet
05:03 PM Tom_L: i get those thick machine washers from my local guy
05:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhausen: what size washers?
05:25 PM unterhausen: "about an inch"
05:26 PM XXCoder: extremely precise
05:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ID, OD
05:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: od the same for each? :)
05:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: od/or
05:26 PM unterhausen: it wasn't clear if they were supposed to be round
05:26 PM unterhausen: I don't have him trained
05:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: some sort of spacer?
05:26 PM unterhausen: I guess, it's for inside an oven
05:27 PM unterhausen: he just said 1/16 thick
05:27 PM unterhausen: If I had to make them I would send it off to one of the laser cutting places
05:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: still wonder how repeatable the indexer is Tom_L
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i haven't seen any actual performance specs from the resellers
05:28 PM unterhausen: Tom's indexer?
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 0.1 deg would be plenty good enough for $300
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhausen: yes
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: did you see mine?
05:29 PM unterhausen: no
05:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.newport.com/p/RV120HAHL
05:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://i.imgur.com/yRlHCIu.jpg +- 1/900,000 rev repeatability ( 0.0004 deg) on this rotary positioner
05:29 PM Tom_L: i send it home and it ends up there every time no matter where it started
05:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: cleaning it up today
05:29 PM XXCoder: if you have powerful press can always just cut disks out then use cnc lathe to do quick cleanup of edges heh
05:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: think I paid in the hundreds $
05:30 PM unterhausen: ebay?
05:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yup
05:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's dusty from sitting here
05:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: looked brand new when I got it
05:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: why I should store things in bags or under blankets/sheets
05:34 PM JT-Shop: time to tuck the chickens in and read them a bedtime story and ditch this work stuff until tomorrow
05:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: got an even bigger one for $1200 https://www.newport.com/p/RV240HAHLT
05:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Tom_L: I'd like to build some 5-axis machines using that indexer you found
05:37 PM Tom_L: would be interesting
05:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: using closed loop steppers
05:37 PM Tom_L: i don't have clearance even to tilt this one
05:38 PM Tom_L: for very much use i'd consider remaking the input shaft collar and at least putting a bushing on it
05:38 PM Tom_L: it's an offset hole for taking out the backlash
05:39 PM Tom_L: would give you a good testbench for your cam
05:40 PM Tom_L: mine has a few provisions for 5 axis but i'm not sure how it would be coded
05:41 PM Tom_L: 4th axis is just wrapped
05:41 PM Tom_L: but at least it's not just an indexer
05:41 PM Tom_L: the cad cam that is
05:50 PM unterhausen: guy on facebook said his cnc went rouge
05:51 PM JT-Cave: people on facebook say a lot of crap
05:51 PM unterhausen: I prefer teal cnc
05:51 PM unterhausen: he meant "rogue"
05:52 PM XXCoder: if its not bad user error, i wonder what happened
05:52 PM unterhausen: I'm making my smart aleck comments here and leaving the poor guy alone
05:52 PM XXCoder: me, im fan of brushed alum color :P
05:53 PM unterhausen: well, it was a shapeoko so probably the zero got changed because the software does that randomly
05:55 PM unterhausen: they couldn't just ship the thing with someone else's bulletproof gcode sender, had to write their own
05:58 PM * JT-Cave wonders where he put the rpi3 din rail mounts at...
05:59 PM XXCoder: unter wonder if can just swap to linuxcnc
06:01 PM JT-Cave: dang I need to clean up and organize down here
06:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://carbide3d.com/about/
06:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://shop.carbide3d.com/collections/machines
06:10 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.inventables.com/ my local version
06:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhausen: they probably could not get investors without having proprietary software
06:33 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe I'll make a 5-axis pasta extruder or cake icing applicator
06:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or a $110K robot bartender
06:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.thedrinksbusiness.com/2021/04/barney-the-swiss-robot-bartender-can-mix-dozens-of-cocktails-tell-jokes-and-sanitise-itself/
06:35 PM Tom_L: but can it toss bottles behind itself...
06:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I need to get into this robot bartender scam er eh business
06:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: using ROS and LCNC of course
06:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I could have they riding motorcycles on a high wire shooting flames out their butts
06:45 PM roycroft: i found a 6-32 nylon hex nut at the home improvement store
06:45 PM roycroft: i paid $2.99 for it
06:45 PM roycroft: i can get 100 of them for <$8 from mcmaster and elsewhere
06:45 PM roycroft: but this gets me through the day
06:45 PM roycroft: and i am definitely going to put together a nylon fastener kit
06:46 PM roycroft: i think i can buy the fasteners indivually at places like mouser or digi-key
06:46 PM roycroft: if they're not too expensive, that would be better - i really don't need more than a dozen of anything in the kit
06:47 PM roycroft: they are $0.139 each at mouser if i get at least ten of them
06:47 PM roycroft: so way more than mcmaster, but i can get 1/10 the quantity
06:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ebay.com/itm/253384059082
06:49 PM roycroft: yeah, but the point is that i don't want nor need 100 of any size
06:49 PM roycroft: this is not a "use for every project until it runs out" kit
06:49 PM roycroft: it's a "i need a one-off odd fastener" kit
06:49 PM roycroft: for projects that need a lot i order a quantity for the project
06:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ebay.com/itm/362392883517
06:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if you get a big [project
06:50 PM roycroft: my imac is rebooting now, claiming to be booting into big sur
06:51 PM roycroft: if i bought those and sold them for $1.99 each, $1 cheaper than the local store, i'd make a tidy profit
06:55 PM roycroft: they cost about the same at digi-key
06:56 PM roycroft: the nuts and washers are not the big deal when it comes to building a kit
06:56 PM roycroft: it's the screws - what length to get?
06:56 PM roycroft: fortunately nylon screws can be made shorter with a utility knife, so not a lot of sizes are needed
06:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 6-32 nylon x 4" should do it :)
07:00 PM XXCoder: buy 1000, cut all in half and sell em at twice price each because its speciality
07:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.cuttingboardcompany.com/white-poly-cutting-boards/
07:07 PM XXCoder: happy blustery day
07:16 PM unterhausen: I looked at the 64 bit rpi thread and it turns out that better is the enemy of good enough
07:17 PM roycroft: i think apple need to work on their os upgrade procedures
07:17 PM roycroft: the time it takes to reboot a mac after an os upgrade to finish the installation is almost as long as the time it takes apple to release a new major os upgrade
07:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if i were to build 64b for the Rpi4 https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Raspberry_Pi4_64_Bit_Install
07:22 PM roycroft: the 64 bit kernel i installed was rt-preempt
07:22 PM roycroft: i don't think running linuxcnc would be a problem
07:22 PM roycroft: i needed to do other things with the install - xfs instead of ext4, and multiple filesystems
07:23 PM roycroft: it's not that it wasn't working - it's that i got so far and ran out of time
07:23 PM roycroft: i'll get back to it soon
07:24 PM unterhausen: I just think the 32bit is a lot easier. Maybe if I have a problem with it
07:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: a couple of years ago I used this https://github.com/sakaki-/gentoo-on-rpi-64bit was pretty solid
07:27 PM roycroft: If you don't need 64 bit it's probably not worth doing
07:27 PM roycroft: The other things I want are more important than a 64 bit kernel, but I figured I might as well build the 64 bit kernel while I was at it
07:27 PM roycroft: And that really was not a big deal to do
07:27 PM Rhine_Labs: Trying to figure good angle to unbox this massive ultrasonic cleaner. https://www.stevenrhine.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Graymills-BTU-7-Unboxing-Test-Ang.jpg
07:28 PM roycroft: But at the moment, it's not as simple as dd'ing an image to a microsd card and stuffing that card in the pi
07:28 PM XXCoder: rhine if never returning it, just cut box open
07:28 PM XXCoder: ie just cut all corners etc
07:29 PM Rhine_Labs: I be saving the box.
07:41 PM roycroft: well that was interesting
07:41 PM roycroft: after waiting about long enough to have a baby for the machine to reboot, it finally came backup, running the old os, and immediately started the upgrade process again
07:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: only cut through the tape
07:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: lift cleaner out of the box and fold box flat
07:57 PM sadara:
07:57 PM sadara: # /usr/bin/linuxcnc: line 930: 42295 Segmentation fault $EMCDISPLAY -ini "$INIFILE" $EMCDISPLAYARGS $EXTRA_ARGS
07:58 PM sadara: Getting a secfault in qtvcp :( and I have no idea how to debug it
07:58 PM sadara: *segfault
08:10 PM sadara: cd
08:10 PM sadara: oops
08:10 PM XXCoder: directory not found
08:10 PM sadara: Going home
08:10 PM XXCoder: command Going not found
08:11 PM XXCoder: ;)
08:11 PM sadara: apt install going
08:11 PM sadara: sudo !!
08:13 PM XXCoder: package 'going' not found
08:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sadara: did you install LCNC from the official ISO?
08:31 PM sadara: CaptHindsight[m], no, it is a 64bit build for the rpi
08:32 PM sadara: I need linuxcnc 2.9 to use a mesa 7c80
08:33 PM sadara: so I figured I might as well be adventurous and try a 64bit build
08:33 PM sadara: currently regretting my decision
08:34 PM Tom_L: 2.8 won't do?
08:34 PM Tom_L: it should
08:34 PM sadara: Tom_L, I saw a forum responce from PCW indicating the 2.9 was the required version
08:35 PM Tom_L: ok but i'm not sure why
08:35 PM Tom_L: i've run spi on the rpi4
08:35 PM Tom_L: using 2.8
08:35 PM Tom_L: not the board you have but another
08:35 PM Tom_L: that is a fairly new board
08:35 PM sadara: The 7C81?
08:36 PM sadara: or not a mesa board?
08:36 PM Tom_L: i think so
08:36 PM Tom_L: the mesa board
08:36 PM sadara: (7c81 = 3x 25 pin headers and 2 rj45 serial)
08:36 PM Tom_L: ok
08:36 PM sadara: the 7c81 and the 7c80 are essentially the same
08:37 PM Tom_L: i ran the 7i90 using spi
08:37 PM Tom_L: i think that was the one..
08:37 PM Tom_L: it's got 3 interfaces you can use on it
08:37 PM sadara: ok, that is the one that is not specific to the RPI
08:38 PM Tom_L: yes
08:38 PM Tom_L: i'm using parallel port on it on my mill
08:38 PM Tom_L: but i've tested it with spi
08:39 PM Tom_L: using the rpi4
08:39 PM Tom_L: and ethernet but yours doesn't have ethernet
08:40 PM Tom_L: ## DRIVER=hm2_rpspi
08:40 PM Tom_L: ## BOARD=7i90
08:40 PM sadara: It is just qtvcp that is not working for me, I just really like the look of QT dragon ;) the SPI and mesa board works properly in the RPI 64bit Preempt_RT envronment I have
08:41 PM Tom_L: oh
08:41 PM Tom_L: qtvcp or qtpyvcp?
08:41 PM sadara: qtvcp
08:42 PM Tom_L: lathe?
08:42 PM sadara: I'm rebuilding 2 CNC routers, and making 2 routers from scratch
08:43 PM sadara: I'm planning on RPI/mesa for all of them
08:43 PM Tom_L: should do fine
08:45 PM sadara: pretty happy with the RPI actually. has very low latency and good documentation and lots of support
08:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I'm exclusively using old AMD PC's
08:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: well 3-10 years old
08:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I do have a Rp4 running for 13 months
08:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 13.5 months
08:47 PM sadara: that is the problem, new PCs are not suitable, and old pcs can be unreliable. So for commercial machines the RPI seems to be a ok fit
08:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: new PC's not suitable? How so?
08:48 PM Tom_L: just keep them cool or they'll run slow
08:48 PM Tom_L: preempt-rt should do fine on new hardware
08:48 PM sadara: CaptHindsight[m], unexpected latency issues
08:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: nope, need RTAI on new AMD
08:48 PM XXCoder: and rpi4 will be sold for quite a while
08:48 PM XXCoder: its dependable and repeatable system
08:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sadara: just sounds like BIOS/EFI issues
08:49 PM sadara: I tried 4 new pcs for this project, and all of the had wierd latency spikes
08:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: RTAI on latest Ryzen is under 10uS jiter
08:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: that is true for any x86 hardware, BIOSes are typically broken
08:50 PM sadara: CaptHindsight[m], it's hit and miss on the BIOS/EFI though
08:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you need to use vendors that at least try to fix their BIOSes
08:50 PM sadara: CaptHindsight[m], but a bios with high latency, or latency spikes isn't really "broken"
08:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: been ASUS latetely for Ryzen
08:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yes a broken BIOS that doesn't have settings for or does not do what you ask of it
08:51 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight[m], you plannin to put that rotary on a cradle?
08:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but we can't have coreboot since your PC has to be secure from you
08:51 PM sadara: I suppose there are industrial PCs that are designed for near real time, but what benifit does that give me over an rpi?
08:52 PM flyback is now known as kriskross
08:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: depends on how complex the machine is
08:52 PM kriskross is now known as flyback
08:52 PM sadara: about as complex as a CNC router can get
08:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or if you will be developing on the same PC that runs the machine
08:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: say building GUI's or kernels
08:53 PM sadara: developing on the same PC << agree with that, RPI is a little slow
08:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it tends to be the gaming motherboards with the the best BIOSes
08:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: more updates, more fixes more does what you ask of it
08:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but if you just install, configure and run a small router Rpi's seem to work ok as long as you keep them cool
08:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I have an older AMD 785 4 core PC with Mesa PCIe cards and LPT ports
08:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i use it for testing 6-7 axis CAM and new features
08:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: RTAI is <10uS jitter, runs 24/7
08:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I occasionally reboot but it's been under power for 4 years 24/7
08:59 PM sadara: that is very low jitter
08:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and was only down for 2 weeks while moving during the past 11 years
09:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: socket AM2/3+ and the new Ryzen has the lowest RTAI jitter as well as Intel core2 duo
09:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the AMD APU stuff runs closer to 25uS, socket FM2 and similar
09:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: get good power supplies for PC's, they tend to be the weakest link
09:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: avoid ECS, Asrock and MSI
09:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Gigabyte tends to have USB ESD issues
09:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: from now until may I have to be sure to ground my hand before plugging in a flash drive to a Gigabyte board
09:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: inteli5 also has really low latency but i avoid Intel same a s nvidia
09:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Intel i5
09:34 PM roycroft: because of the high humidity? :)
09:38 PM roycroft: humidity is 93% here right now
09:38 PM roycroft: a relatively dry day for this time of year
09:49 PM sadara: So the segmentation fault problem exists in the 32bit version from buildbot
09:51 PM Tom_L: for 2.9?
09:52 PM sadara: yes
09:52 PM Tom_L: 2.9 isn't always stable. they're making changes to it
09:52 PM Tom_L: i'd suggest using 2.8
09:52 PM sadara: I'll do a bit more digging and file a bug report
09:53 PM Tom_L: they're preparing it for mainstream distribution
09:55 PM Tom_L: http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/1660.rip-buster-python3/
09:56 PM Tom_L: http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/buildbot/builders/
10:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we will get a Gentoo buildbot going for RTAI and LCNC with RTAI
10:02 PM sadara: I tried 4 new pcs for this project, and all of the had wierd latency spikes
10:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: will post results somewhere and have a got lab or similar with public read/clones
10:02 PM sadara: why Gentoo?
10:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: turn off all virtualization, all speed stepping and power management
10:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: because properly built Gentoo just works
10:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: not like deb or raspian/armbian etc
10:03 PM sadara: sorry, that was a repost, I'm on a windows pc and everything keeps stealing my window focus
10:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: no problem
10:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: at some point I'll return to the LCNC on the Opi's and have working kernels and u-boot
10:05 PM sadara: same qtvcp problem exists on 2.8.2-59-g2e94d346a
10:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Opi's don't need Mesa for Step and Dir drives
10:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: for the land of the cheapskates
10:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: thought they seem to be pacified by Remora for now
10:06 PM sadara: Remora?
10:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://remora-docs.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
10:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: uses Rpi with STM32 or LPC17xx for fast RT stepping
10:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: LCNC on cheap hardware
10:11 PM Tom_L: like driving a bugatti down an old muddy road
10:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://allwincnc.github.io/index.html sadara
10:11 PM sadara: lol
10:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Allwinner makes a RiscV SOC but left out the microcontrollers, so no fast internal stepgens
10:12 PM sadara: can the RPI input axis encoders?
10:13 PM Tom_L: thru mesa
10:13 PM sadara: I mean directly
10:13 PM Tom_L: doubt it would keep up
10:14 PM sadara: I have lots of mesa stuff here, but was thinking about it for a 3d printer i'm building, where mesa seems like overkill
10:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the Opi
10:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: opps, the Opi's can handle reading encoders in real time
10:14 PM sadara: but I need a couple of linear encoders
10:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: where the Opi's and Remora come in for cheap FFF printers and similar
10:15 PM Tom_L: later...
10:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hasta banana
10:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://github.com/scottalford75/Remora/releases/tag/1.1.0
10:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: enough IO now for 3-4 steppers and encoders plus home/limit
10:37 PM sadara: Starting from scratch, I've burnt a sd card with the stock image (linuxcnc rpi 2.8.1) and qtvcp is segfaulting
10:37 PM sadara: CaptHindsight[m], that sounds perfect for a 3d printer
10:37 PM sadara: so apparently qtvcp is completely broken on pi
10:38 PM XXCoder: so remora is fork of linuxcnc for rpi4?
10:41 PM sadara: it seems to be software that runs on a microcontroller that can communicate with linuxcnc over SPI
10:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ^^ what he said
10:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's that extra firmware to run on a microcontroller vs a Mesa FPGA for the Rpi, but could be ported for X86
10:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: right now Remora only used SPI between the Rpi and the microcontroller
10:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: this may be expanded to use UDP or SPI in the future
10:54 PM perry_j1987: isnt SPI a board to board protocol
10:54 PM perry_j1987: not suppose to be used over wire
10:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: short distance
10:54 PM sadara: perry_j1987, not really, SPI is just short distance
10:54 PM sadara: <1m or so
10:55 PM sadara: it is ideal for board to board connections
10:56 PM sadara: for example, I2C (similar to spi) is used over vga and hdmi to communicate with a monitor (basic stuff like EDID(resolutions supported etc))
10:56 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Goi4YVU0js is also in the works
10:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ESP32 as the micro and over UDP Ethernet
10:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: similar to Mesa
11:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt441/slyt441.pdf
11:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Extending the SPI bus for
11:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: long-distance communication ^^
11:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: for slow SPI <2MHz https://www.analog.com/en/products/ltc4332.html#product-overview
11:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 2MHz SCK Over 10m, Operation Up to 1200m
11:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.tij.co.jp/lit/ug/tidued8/tidued8.pdf?ts=1637038953182
11:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you can cut the link right before the ? sneaky tracker
11:38 PM perry_j1987: this remora stuff is looking pretty neat
11:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just bad timing with the chip shotages
11:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: shortages even