#linuxcnc Logs

Sep 23 2021

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:41 AM Loetmichel: mornin'. I just was outside on the balcony, seeing the wife going for a grocery run. Its a bit eerie to see 2 tons of steel rool off the backyard nearly completely silend. Hybrid car. *shudder*
12:49 AM roycroft: my car used to be really quiet, until a wheel bearing started making noise
12:49 AM Loetmichel: -d+t
12:49 AM roycroft: but yeah, at slow speed, while it's on battery, it is almost dead silent
12:49 AM Loetmichel: the only thing you hear from that GLC350E is some singing steering pump and the gravel underneath the wheels. Its just not 'right' for that much mass to move so quietly.
12:49 AM roycroft: even when the engine is running, it's a small engine and well-muffled
12:52 AM Loetmichel: That merc is made for speed. its WAY to heavy and bulky to be an efficient hybrid. It barely made the minimum range on battery to qualify as "electric" under german law.
12:53 AM Loetmichel: they claim you can drive it with 3.3l/100km... wife has never managed below 8,5l/100km in the four years she has driven it now.
12:56 AM XXCoder: id suggest start crossing streets as deaf person
12:57 AM roycroft: my prius gets about 4.7l/100km
12:57 AM roycroft: again, it was an early model
12:57 AM XXCoder: whole universe is silent to me. everything is silent and deadly unless its so heavy it makes vibrations
12:57 AM roycroft: the newer models do significantly better
12:57 AM Loetmichel: XXCoder: i would imagine it doesent make a difference for you
12:57 AM XXCoder: it doesnt for me yeah
12:58 AM Loetmichel: but for hearing people its eerie to see that much steel moving nearly soundless
12:58 AM roycroft: but you can see the cars
12:58 AM roycroft: for blind people hybrids and evs are a problem because they cannot see them and sometimes cannot hear them
12:58 AM Loetmichel: it "just doesent feel right"
12:58 AM XXCoder: roy indeed, thats why my advice is start crossing streets as deaf person. ie look around and safely cross
12:58 AM XXCoder: blind indeed its a problem
12:59 AM XXCoder: I interned at blind school. it was interesting.
01:07 AM CaptHindsight[m]: EV's should give you a choice of sounds that they make
01:15 AM CaptHindsight[m]: like the ringer on your phone
01:15 AM XXCoder: ice cream song? (which is racist af btw)
01:15 AM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight[m]: some do
01:15 AM CaptHindsight[m]: horses galloping, chickens, woopie cushions etc
01:15 AM CaptHindsight[m]: I'd use the Benny Hill music
01:15 AM Loetmichel: benny hill would be hillarious
01:18 AM CaptHindsight[m]: Loetmichel: just odd to me how your polizei behave vs what we have here
01:19 AM CaptHindsight[m]: Loetmichel: do they require search warrants to enter homes there?
01:20 AM XXCoder: honestly if I was required to select a noise for my EV, i'd choose large cat purring
01:20 AM XXCoder: because why not
01:24 AM CaptHindsight[m]: was at Amerimoldearlier today
01:25 AM CaptHindsight[m]: Amerimold even
01:26 AM CaptHindsight[m]: was practically assaulted by the Siemens control salesperson
01:26 AM CaptHindsight[m]: no help just went on about how their controls are the mosdt accurate
01:27 AM CaptHindsight[m]: they do offer blending in 5+ axis simultaneous
01:28 AM CaptHindsight[m]: didn't that if you choose their controls you are then stuck with their motors and drives
01:28 AM CaptHindsight[m]: they don't offer a control with Step and Dir
01:28 AM Deejay: moin
01:47 AM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight[m]: yes, police do require search warrants. Unless its emergency.
01:48 AM CaptHindsight[m]: looks like IF you answer the door they march right in
01:49 AM Loetmichel: they are not supposed to. they have to show you the warrant. AND have "neutral witnesses" with them
01:50 AM Loetmichel: they can march right in if they assume a crime in progress. But not for searching.
01:50 AM CaptHindsight[m]: gas loopholin
01:50 AM CaptHindsight[m]: das
01:53 AM CaptHindsight[m]: on "auf Streife" they often just march right in if the door is answered, they do ring or knock politely first
01:54 AM Loetmichel: yes it is. But at least they get punished if they cant prove that they had reason to assume a crime here.
01:54 AM CaptHindsight[m]: interesting
01:55 AM Loetmichel: In germany People have a different relation to police (mostly). if they ask politely most people will let them in.
01:55 AM XXCoder: i remember one movie where one of cops says "oh i heard baby cry. did you?" to other cop and break in
01:55 AM XXCoder: that was cringy as fuck
01:55 AM Loetmichel: Police here (for the most part) is trusted, not feared.
01:56 AM XXCoder: it being a movie, of course cops expose drug lab and such, but who knows what would have happened in reality
01:56 AM Loetmichel: we do have black sheep in the force, but not that many as the US seem to have
01:57 AM Loetmichel: and the police in general is trained to deescalate, not to shoot first ask questions later
01:57 AM XXCoder: fbi have been warning goverment for years
01:59 AM CaptHindsight[m]: the morning shows are already over, but I see lots of the same stories on our news, they even covered the Gabby Petito story last week
02:03 AM CaptHindsight[m]: seems like half the commercials are for brands from the USA
02:20 AM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight[m]: more like "brans avaible in the US"
02:26 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:41 AM JT-Cave: morning
11:16 AM roycroft: goodbye, matrix
11:16 AM roycroft: come back soon
11:24 AM JT-Cave: yippee parts washer has a new zip code
11:28 AM roycroft: i should probably find a new home for mine, since i don't use it
11:28 AM roycroft: and welcome back, matrix
11:34 AM JT-Cave: some guy from cape girardeau (90 minutes from me) wants to buy my Hilti hammer drill and bring it to him lol
11:43 AM CaptHindsight[m]: $1/mile each way
11:47 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZzqIyGmgVw&t=1s
11:48 AM CaptHindsight[m]: the printer has a ~4in x 4in x 4in print volume for $350k
11:49 AM CaptHindsight[m]: CNC glue gun and mill all in one :)
11:53 AM roycroft: that's fine, jt-cave
11:53 AM roycroft: the delivery fee should be about $300
11:54 AM CloudEvil: CaptHindsight[m]: For $350K for a 4*4*4" cube, that better be Ir/Rh, including the filiment.
11:56 AM CloudEvil: Interesting concept
12:07 PM unterhaus: I like the idea. Interesting example though
12:32 PM snakedLX is now known as snaked
12:47 PM roycroft: folks, i'm looking for some cables i cannot find - usb-c on one end and no connector on the other end, with a reasonable conductor size (18-22ga)
12:47 PM roycroft: does anyone know of a source of such things?
12:48 PM roycroft: i could use a usb-a to usb-c adapter, but would prefer not to have to do that
12:48 PM roycroft: it only needs to be two conductor - this is just for power, not data
12:49 PM unterhaus: that wire size is not going to happen. Might be a trick to make one too
12:50 PM roycroft: i could deal with smaller wire size, like 28ga
12:50 PM roycroft: it's just harder to connectorize small wires
12:50 PM roycroft: but 28ga would be better than using an adapter
12:51 PM roycroft: it doesn't need to carry a lot of current - i only wanted the larger wire size because it's easier to work with
12:56 PM unterhaus: they take 100 watts
12:56 PM unterhaus: is that enough
12:57 PM unterhaus: I would just cut a cable, there is a standard wire coloring scheme
12:57 PM roycroft: perhaps i should go another route with this
12:58 PM roycroft: my cnc router will have 5vdc, 24vdc and 48vdc power supplies
12:58 PM roycroft: i was going to just take power off the 5v supply to power the rpi, but i could get a 24v to 5v step down converter with a usb-c connector on it
12:59 PM roycroft: that would generate a little extra heat, but not an appreciable amount
01:01 PM roycroft: it also seems messy to stop down like that when there's already 5v available
01:01 PM roycroft: but it will all be inside an electrical cabinet that will be inside the router cabinet, so nobody will ever see that
01:01 PM roycroft: i'll still know, though
01:05 PM unterhaus: You can power a pi through the expansion port. The remora people are doing that
01:06 PM unterhaus: I just chose to go with separate 5v power supplies
01:06 PM roycroft: no protection circuit for that though
01:07 PM roycroft: i could add one, i suppose
01:07 PM unterhaus: I got a din rail mount 120v outlet for the pi supply
01:08 PM roycroft: i won't have 120v available
01:08 PM roycroft: that's the problem
01:08 PM roycroft: and while most of the power bricks can run on 240v, they have 120v plugs
01:08 PM unterhaus: you are remotely powering everything?
01:08 PM roycroft: no
01:09 PM roycroft: but all i'll have going to the machine is 240vac single phase power
01:09 PM roycroft: it's just a 3 wire connection, so no split phase
01:09 PM unterhaus: I'm not going to the basement to look, but I imagine my pi psu is capable of running off of 240v
01:09 PM roycroft: for initial testing i have a wall wart
01:10 PM roycroft: yes, that's not the issue
01:10 PM roycroft: the issue is that the power supplies have 120v plugs
01:10 PM roycroft: i'm not going to install a 120v receptacle and feed it 240v
01:10 PM roycroft: even though it would be a dedicated receptacle inside a control panel that would never be used for anything else
01:10 PM roycroft: it's still as wrong as wrong can be
01:11 PM unterhaus: I get that, but I did it for my prius charger and lived
01:11 PM roycroft: i need to turn 240vac into 5vdc with a usb c connector
01:11 PM unterhaus: okay, wall is 240v connector
01:11 PM roycroft: and i need to do it in a legitimate way :)
01:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I think that lost foam casting is fastest process
01:12 PM roycroft: this will work: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07ZQB6S3L
01:12 PM roycroft: and i have one of those powering the pi that interfaces with my ender 5 printer, which uses 24vdc internally
01:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you don't have to spread any sand layers or deal with an inkjet
01:13 PM roycroft: i'm just kind of surprised that i can't find a usb c to pigtail two wire cable anywhere
01:14 PM roycroft: it seems like a useful thing, that many folks would buy
01:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: printed resin foam can also produce the same parts as the Mantle's TrueShape process
01:14 PM roycroft: but i guess my definition of useful is mine and mine alone, yet again
01:16 PM unterhaus: digikey doesn't have pigtailed usb c cables?
01:17 PM unterhaus: okay, not easy to find
01:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: monoprice has usb-c cables starting at $1, buy them and cut them yourself
01:21 PM roycroft: digi-key and mouser and allied do not have them
01:21 PM roycroft: and i'm not sure i speak good enough chinglish to be searching properly on alieexpress
01:23 PM unterhaus: I thought usb c was going to be good for laptop charging. 100w is barely good enough for that
01:23 PM unterhaus: but should be fine for a pi
01:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ebay.com/itm/224122078268
01:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ebay.com/itm/303659974800
01:25 PM unterhaus: that is nice, could get rid of my charger
01:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ebay.com/itm/303659965437
01:25 PM unterhaus: 100 pieces, people are going to wonder why they got one for christmas
01:26 PM roycroft: that first item is exactly what i want
01:26 PM unterhaus: I hope China doesn't mess up their economy so they can't sell us everything we might want
01:26 PM roycroft: my ebay search earlier did not display it though
01:26 PM roycroft: hmm
01:27 PM unterhaus: isn't going to get here for 10 days, I might forget why I ordered it
01:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe your Google is broken
01:28 PM unterhaus: sometimes my google is definitely broken
01:28 PM unterhaus: just have a total blackout for a word that will help me find somethign
01:29 PM unterhaus: ebay search has gone downhill, I use google
01:29 PM unterhaus: amazon has always been bad, best to use google for that since they started
01:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the Siemens CNC control salesperson was probably the most arrogant clueless person I have met
01:30 PM roycroft: i'm a duck duck go person, myself
01:30 PM unterhaus: ddg uses google
01:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I let him try to sell me on using his controls for cnc machines
01:30 PM roycroft: i give google as little information about me as possible - they already know way way way too much about me
01:31 PM unterhaus: amazon probably has some if you can find them. They have these cool breakouts https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XYWXBQT/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B08XYWXBQT&pd_rd_w=1pERf&pf_rd_p=887084a2-5c34-4113-a4f8-b7947847c308&pd_rd_wg=g09C3&pf_rd_r=98396GZ1YDYQQ5A43GZQ&pd_rd_r=b288cdd4-f5ae-4b46-bf2e-4c0cfa1eb587&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzMjZVVjRPQ1BHUzlIJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwODcwMTA3MVk1MUhHTlJOWU9UQyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMTc2MDE3M0hCSlcyUVY4R1VCSyZ3aWRnZX
01:31 PM unterhaus: ROYW1lPXNwX2RldGFpbCZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
01:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i trell Google I'm you :)
01:31 PM roycroft: if they do they don't pass my information to google
01:31 PM unterhaus: why do they do that with their links? sorry
01:31 PM roycroft: you can trunkcate at the ref= part
01:31 PM roycroft: truncate
01:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hah, i have you checking account access now !
01:31 PM unterhaus: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XYWXBQT/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?
01:32 PM unterhaus: no money in there anyway
01:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we should all click that link to give them bad tracking data
01:32 PM roycroft: actually, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08XYWXBQT works fine
01:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: plot twsit
01:33 PM unterhaus: https://www.amazon.com/Connector-Solderless-Pluggable-Extension-Interface/dp/B08D93ZSM4/
01:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: whats the longest USB cable that you have successfully used for data transfer?
01:34 PM roycroft: i just ordered a half dozen pigtail cables on ebay
01:34 PM roycroft: about 10m
01:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 3x 6ft for usb2
01:34 PM roycroft: well, i would not call it "data transfer"
01:35 PM roycroft: but i've used extender cables that long for keyboards
01:35 PM unterhaus: I had 54 tiny computers buried in the floor of one of our labs that had the 5m extensions
01:35 PM unterhaus: data communication was via radio, but I programmed them with usb
01:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the 12ft long USB2 cable that came with my mach3 mill would usually cause windows to lockup when running
01:36 PM unterhaus: I never tried going further
01:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: handy for wasting parts
01:36 PM roycroft: servers with broken ipmi that don't do rs232 conosoles properly need a keyboad and display connector going to a kvm
01:36 PM roycroft: this leads to what may be the next interesting challenge of my rpi experiment
01:36 PM unterhaus: I went through a usb hub because there were so many connections
01:37 PM roycroft: the rpi for my router will be inside a shielded metal electrical cabinet down by the floor, in the middle of the router stand
01:37 PM roycroft: there's no way wifi is going to work with that
01:37 PM unterhaus: I wouldn't be so sure
01:37 PM roycroft: so i'm going to have to get a usb wifi dongle with an antenna, and mount it on top of the gantry
01:37 PM unterhaus: doesn't it have ventilation?
01:37 PM roycroft: yes, it will have ventilation
01:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: what CPU's were in them?
01:37 PM unterhaus: msp430
01:37 PM roycroft: it will also have multiple power supplies and a vfd right next to it
01:38 PM roycroft: it's likely going to be rather noisy
01:38 PM unterhaus: I would try it because that wifi in the pi is really impressive
01:38 PM roycroft: but i think that a usb wifi dongle might work, with a 2m usb extension cable
01:38 PM roycroft: i'll definitely try it first
01:38 PM roycroft: i'm just making plans to deal with it if it doesn't work
01:39 PM unterhaus: we did some power experiements, and the msp430 was pretty impressive. Only problem is that you have to keep the a/d converters running or they get wonky
01:39 PM roycroft: i'll be using the ethernet port to connect to the mesa board
01:39 PM roycroft: so wifi will be my only network connection
01:39 PM unterhaus: I haven't tried my pi with the box on the enclosure, mabye it won't work
01:40 PM roycroft: the pi will arrive today
01:40 PM unterhaus: did you get the one Tom recommended?
01:40 PM roycroft: my first task will be to install debian/raspian and linuxcnc, and set up x forwarding via an ssh tunnel
01:40 PM roycroft: i got an rpi4 with 4GB of ram
01:40 PM roycroft: from some electronics house in chicago
01:41 PM roycroft: i did not buy a bundle, because i don't need most of the components
01:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i have free ones i could have sent you
01:41 PM unterhaus: ic, so you don't trust tom then
01:41 PM roycroft: i just got the bare board for $55
01:41 PM unterhaus: Cap'n, I need one, send a free one to me :)
01:41 PM roycroft: there was no sense paying $100+ to get a power supply, case, etc. that i don't need
01:41 PM unterhaus: now that you have my checking account
01:42 PM unterhaus: roycroft, how much was shipping?
01:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: does pumpkin belong on pizza?
01:42 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/294262893190
01:42 PM roycroft: those are the cables i got
01:43 PM roycroft: not the original link, but they were referenced there
01:43 PM roycroft: they're a bit longer than the original link, so i have room to move things around as needed
01:43 PM roycroft: i'm checking now, unterhaus
01:43 PM roycroft: not much
01:43 PM roycroft: like $5.50, i think
01:44 PM roycroft: $61.97 including shipping
01:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i have various Rpi's that came as bonus "gifts" when purchasing over some amount
01:44 PM roycroft: i have a pile of them
01:44 PM roycroft: but they're all old
01:44 PM roycroft: i don't think i want to try running linuxcnc on a 10-year-old rpi
01:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: are they that old now?
01:45 PM unterhaus: yeah, pi4 or bust for lcnc
01:45 PM roycroft: $61.97 for an rpi 4 is fine
01:45 PM roycroft: i first heard about the rpi in around 2008
01:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: almost pc prices
01:45 PM unterhaus: well, double what my last pc cost me, $25
01:46 PM roycroft: teh wikipedia claims that the first one was released in 2012
01:46 PM unterhaus: I think I have a type b
01:46 PM unterhaus: I'm not sure which is faster, the pc or the pi4
01:47 PM unterhaus: pi4 has less latency, I think
01:47 PM roycroft: there's a raspberry p model b and a raspberry pi 2 model b and a raspberry pi 3 model b and a raspberry pi 4 model b
01:47 PM unterhaus: yeah, I think it's pi2
01:47 PM roycroft: i have a rpi 4 model b running an octoprint server in my 3d printer
01:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: rpi vs https://www.ebay.com/itm/233318351593
01:47 PM roycroft: it works great
01:47 PM unterhaus: I gave it to someone and he gave it back
01:47 PM roycroft: and i ordered the same thing for the router
01:47 PM roycroft: hopefully that will work well
01:48 PM roycroft: i'll be getting a mesa 7i96 for it, once jt has them in stock again
01:48 PM unterhaus: that celery doesn't have storage or ram
01:48 PM unterhaus: yeah, the 7i96 is so great I bought 3
01:48 PM unterhaus: okay, that was a mistake, only needed one
01:49 PM unterhaus: but now I am going to be using 2
01:49 PM roycroft: do you want to sell one cheap? :)
01:49 PM unterhaus: no :)
01:49 PM roycroft: that's fine
01:49 PM roycroft: i don't mind throwing a little cash at jt
01:49 PM unterhaus: they are cheap
01:49 PM roycroft: he might answer a question or to later on if i do :)
01:49 PM unterhaus: you can always get one from PCW
01:50 PM unterhaus: or did I buy them all?
01:50 PM roycroft: yeah, i was going to get a 7i76, but jt told me a 7i96 would probably work fine, and when i looked at the specs, i agree
01:50 PM roycroft: worst case i'll find i need some more io at some point and have to buy a daughter board
01:50 PM roycroft: i'll leave room in the cabinet for that possibility
01:50 PM unterhaus: you can attach a standard pc bob to it
01:51 PM unterhaus: a while back someone posted about how great the 7i96 was to the mailing list, that's where I found out about it
01:52 PM roycroft: it looks like it will be fine
01:52 PM unterhaus: I'm not really a proponent of step/dir
01:52 PM roycroft: i can daisy chain all the hard limit switches together to save io pins
01:52 PM unterhaus: bob is the way to go now that the Chinese are paying us to take them. Okay, $16
01:54 PM unterhaus: for some reason I have 3 bobs sitting in a drawer
01:54 PM unterhaus: one of them is a pmdx, very nice
01:54 PM roycroft: maybe it was arduinos i was dealing with back in 2008
01:54 PM roycroft: yeah, the first arduino came out in 2005
01:55 PM roycroft: i never liked arduinos much
01:55 PM roycroft: i mean, they're fine for what they do
01:55 PM roycroft: but rpi is a lot easier to deal with
01:55 PM unterhaus: I like arduinos a lot
01:56 PM roycroft: for embedded apps they're fine
01:56 PM unterhaus: people use them for all sorts of reasons because they don't want to grow up
01:56 PM roycroft: they are cheap and robust
01:56 PM unterhaus: someone found out you could take over an esp via bluetooth
01:57 PM unterhaus: engineers are using esp's in all sorts of public facing applications
01:57 PM roycroft: but to have to push the sketch to it every time you want to make a change in the program is not a lot of fun
01:57 PM unterhaus: that's just embedded
01:57 PM roycroft: yeah, that's not an arduino-specific thing
01:57 PM unterhaus: my first embedded app, I had to burn an eprom
01:58 PM roycroft: the pi is nice because it's kind of a hybrid embedded system/general purpose computer
01:58 PM unterhaus: mistakes were relatively expensive in terms of time
01:58 PM unterhaus: agreed about the pi, and they aren't much more expensive
01:58 PM roycroft: when the stakes are high it's best not to make many mistakes
01:58 PM roycroft: my first programming language was basic, on an old dec time share system
01:59 PM unterhaus: I was making a music device, not high stakes.
01:59 PM roycroft: we had a real tty with an acousting coupler modem
01:59 PM roycroft: and a paper tape punch/reader
01:59 PM roycroft: that was in high school, and i went through the entire semester's curriculum in about 2 weeks
01:59 PM unterhaus: I think I did fortran first, with punch cards
02:00 PM roycroft: so the instructor got me learning fortran, but we had no access to a computer with a fortran compiler
02:00 PM unterhaus: then I got a commodore and played with basic
02:00 PM roycroft: one of my classmates' father had an ibm mainframe at work with fortran
02:00 PM roycroft: and i was able to use that
02:00 PM roycroft: i would fill out a coding sheet in class
02:00 PM roycroft: my classmate would take it home that night
02:01 PM roycroft: his father would bring it to work the next day, where he had it keypunched on to a card deck
02:01 PM roycroft: they ran it that day or the next day, depending on the schedule
02:01 PM roycroft: the father would bring the printout home, give it to his son, who would bring it to class the next day
02:01 PM unterhaus: that sounds possibly a little slower than my first fortran class
02:01 PM roycroft: my programs were simple, but i learned right away to be very careful filling out the coding sheets
02:01 PM roycroft: a mistake could cost the better part of a week
02:02 PM unterhaus: punch the cards, turn them in, they would run them and it was 10 points off for every mistake
02:02 PM unterhaus: sometimes it took two days, depending on how lazy the grad student was being
02:03 PM unterhaus: it was a revelation when a friend gave me access to one of his accounts and I could program at a monitor
02:03 PM roycroft: my first glass terminal experience was on a data general mini computer
02:03 PM roycroft: i learned cobol on that machine
02:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: CloudEvil: ever seen cast and machined aluminum molds for injection molding?
02:04 PM unterhaus: there were two secrets to programming in those days: finding an unused card reader, and going there late at night
02:04 PM roycroft: then i had to write a bunch of code for an ibm 370, and had to go back to filling out coding sheets
02:04 PM roycroft: which were a real pain for doing cobol, since it's so bloody wordy
02:04 PM unterhaus: never heard of a coding sheet
02:05 PM roycroft: it's just a legal size piece of paper with about 25 rows of 80 colums of boxes
02:05 PM unterhaus: I guess card punches were so expensive then
02:05 PM unterhaus: have a typist do the card punching
02:05 PM roycroft: well programmers did not have direct access to them
02:06 PM roycroft: they had keypunch operators who did that
02:06 PM roycroft: so they filled out the sheets and gave them to the keypunch operators
02:06 PM roycroft: fortran really did not need them, but that's what my classmate's office did
02:06 PM unterhaus: wow, I didn't know how privileged I was
02:06 PM roycroft: cobol absolutely needed coding sheets, because the code was colum-sensitive
02:07 PM unterhaus: fortran is kinda sensitive
02:07 PM roycroft: but just white space sensitive
02:07 PM roycroft: you could begin a line with a single space or two spaces and it was treated the same
02:07 PM unterhaus: I'm glad the only cobol I ever did was on a wang, I had no idea you had to worry about columns
02:07 PM roycroft: cobol absolutely not
02:08 PM unterhaus: I hated cobol so much
02:08 PM roycroft: i think there were some fortran compilers that needed the first 8 columns for line numbers, so you had to start in column 9
02:08 PM unterhaus: yeah, the cards were marked. your coding sheets were no doubt similarly marked
02:08 PM roycroft: yes, the coding sheets were marked
02:08 PM roycroft: and there were different sheets for each language
02:08 PM roycroft: and there were jcl sheets as well
02:09 PM unterhaus: the key punches may have taken care of that too, I forget
02:09 PM unterhaus: if you remember the '70s, you weren't there
02:10 PM unterhaus: whatever fortran was on the CDC computer I used was not nearly as sensitive
02:10 PM unterhaus: had to wait for the operator to load your tape sometimes though
02:10 PM roycroft: i don't think it was on the mainframe, other than the line number columns, but the office protocol was to use coding sheets
02:10 PM roycroft: so we did
02:11 PM unterhaus: you didn't have a punch machine
02:11 PM roycroft: that was so long ago, many of the details are fuzzy at best
02:11 PM roycroft: no, i did not
02:11 PM roycroft: a keypunch machine was like $10,000, in 1970s dollars
02:11 PM unterhaus: so obviously the coding sheets were necessary
02:11 PM roycroft: and i was writing code in class at high school
02:12 PM unterhaus: those things were robust, never had a problem with one
02:12 PM unterhaus: I think I threw away my card deck that I kept, I was pretty proud of that program
02:12 PM unterhaus: it was for a composite materials class
02:13 PM roycroft: http://aandds.com/blog/images/cobol_coding_form.jpg
02:13 PM roycroft: that looks really familiar
02:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: i have unused 1, 2 and 3 Rpi's
02:13 PM unterhaus: the wordiness of cobol in combination with hand writing the statements would have killed me
02:13 PM unterhaus: Cap'n, no good then
02:13 PM unterhaus: never have figured out what to do with my pi2
02:14 PM roycroft: https://atariwiki.org/wiki/attach/Fortran/IBM_Fortran_coding_form.pdf
02:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: table leg eleveler
02:14 PM roycroft: that looks even more familiar
02:14 PM unterhaus: I should put it on buy nothing
02:14 PM roycroft: and yeah, i guess it was 5 columns for line number, not 8
02:14 PM unterhaus: I'm surprised that's enough line numbers
02:15 PM roycroft: then the continuity column, for statements that are longer than one line
02:15 PM roycroft: i think those first six columns were the only really "sensitive" ones
02:15 PM unterhaus: my differential equations professor had a card deck that required a big wooden box to carry around
02:15 PM roycroft: other than that, fortran didn't care about white space
02:16 PM roycroft: that big wooden box was still less than 100,000 cards
02:16 PM unterhaus: gas turbine engine simulations are still called "engine decks"
02:16 PM unterhaus: yeah, but you would want to skip numbers
02:16 PM roycroft: yes
02:17 PM roycroft: i still do that to this day, much to the annoyance of many people
02:17 PM unterhaus: according to one of the grad students that likes to claim credit for it, I wrote a 40000 line program
02:17 PM roycroft: i've had long, bizarre arguments, for example, with the folks at proofpoint
02:18 PM roycroft: they *insist* that i need to set up my mx records that point to them as in mx 1 ... and im mx 2 ...
02:18 PM roycroft: i set them as in mx 100 and in mx 200
02:18 PM roycroft: and refuse to budge on that
02:18 PM roycroft: they tell me that it won't work and they won't offer support if my mx records are not "correct"
02:19 PM unterhaus: they probably want to sell renumbering software
02:19 PM roycroft: if their servers ever go down i want to be able to add an mx record quickly that has higher precedence than theirs
02:19 PM roycroft: in mx 50 my.emergency.mail.server
02:20 PM roycroft: if i start at 1 i can't do that
02:20 PM unterhaus: I think the only cobol program I wrote that anyone used would let you fix someone's social security number
02:20 PM unterhaus: because of course the main key in the database was their ssan
02:20 PM unterhaus: they probably used that for decades
02:21 PM unterhaus: maybe it's still in use
02:21 PM unterhaus: or the air force paid a consultant a couple of million $ to fix the database
02:35 PM roycroft: my boss still uses potentially variable data fields as the primary key in his tables
02:35 PM roycroft: and i've had clean up after him so many times
02:36 PM roycroft: he also refuses to define the fields he uses as keys as unique in the table definition
02:37 PM roycroft: he thinks it's better to enforce that in the application, and not in the dbms itself
02:37 PM roycroft: he cannot explain why he thinks that's better
02:38 PM roycroft: he also has no concept of normalizing a database
02:39 PM roycroft: oh well, job security for me, i guess
02:39 PM roycroft: i get to spend a lot of time cleaning up his messses
03:02 PM roycroft: i think i've asked this before but if so i forgot the answer
03:02 PM roycroft: is it ok to power up the rpi running linuxcnc and the field power to the 7i96 at the same time?
03:03 PM roycroft: i'm thinking i want to power up the 5v and 24v power supplies first, and then when linuxcnc is running and everything else is ready, power up the 48v to the motors as a second operation
03:03 PM roycroft: and probably power up the vfd as part of that second operation
03:04 PM roycroft: my e-stop can just kill the motor power supply and vfd, i think
03:05 PM roycroft: i don't see any reason to kill power to the rpi with the e-stop
03:07 PM JT-Shop: the only thing I kill with an estop is the power to output cards (PLC) and any other power that is spinning something
03:08 PM roycroft: right, so the 48v ps is for the stepper motors, and if i kill that and the vfd i should be fine
03:08 PM JT-Shop: I also inform the PLC that the estop has been tripped
03:08 PM roguish[m]: JT-Shop: JT. have you ever used any Safety Relays?
03:08 PM roycroft: but to my first question
03:09 PM roycroft: if i power up the rpi and the 7i96 at the same time i should be fine, no?
03:09 PM roycroft: the 7i96 will be ready instantly, while the rpi is just starting to boot
03:10 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
03:15 PM roycroft: i guess he did not want to answer that :)
03:15 PM unterhaus: the system needs to be designed so it can have power on the mesa
03:15 PM JT-Shop: touched the wrong key reaching for the rice crisps
03:15 PM unterhaus: without the system being dangerous
03:15 PM JT-Shop: the 7i96 must be up and running when you start lcnc
03:15 PM roycroft: right
03:15 PM JT-Shop: roguish[m], a few times
03:15 PM roycroft: and if i power them simultaneously, the 7i96 will be up and running within milliseconds, won't it?
03:15 PM * JT-Shop ferry's some chickens from the run to the yard
03:15 PM roycroft: the rpi will still be thinking about booting linux when the 7i96 is ready, i should think
03:15 PM JT-Shop: yes it only matters that the 7i96 is up when you start lcnc
03:15 PM unterhaus: yes the 7i96 will be ready long before you get lcnc running
03:15 PM unterhaus: should be okay on a step/dir system
03:15 PM roycroft: what i'm thinking about doing is having a maintained power switch to power the 5v circuit, which will power the rpi and mesa card
03:16 PM roycroft: linuxcnc would start up and barf because it doesn't see the card if something is wrong
03:16 PM unterhaus: no, I meant all this elaborate checking. It's a step dir system, right?
03:17 PM roycroft: yes
03:17 PM unterhaus: it's not going anywhere
03:17 PM roycroft: right
03:17 PM unterhaus: a servo system might run away if poorly designed, but not steppers
03:17 PM roycroft: you have to undestand - the way my brain works i overthink and ovecomplicate things before i am able to simplify them :)
03:18 PM unterhaus: but the system needs to be safe when the mesa isn't getting commands
03:18 PM roguish[m]: JT-Shop: I'm doing a control system for a pretty dangerous machine. and I know the operators. not the sharpest guys
03:19 PM roycroft: my thinking is i would power up the 5v subsystem, which would power the mesa board and the rpi
03:19 PM roycroft: once the pi is up and running i would connect to it via the ssh tunnel
03:19 PM unterhaus: I have a safety relay in my mill cabinet, I have never figured out a use for it
03:20 PM roycroft: and when i have the linuxcnc interface on my laptop, i would power up the 48v and vfd subsystems
03:20 PM roycroft: so nothing can spin until i tell it to
03:20 PM roguish[m]: roycroft: hey, butting in a bit, but for estops, it's important (usually) to keep the logic alive and kill the high power.....
03:20 PM roycroft: right, and that's what i'm thinking
03:20 PM unterhaus: nothing is going to spin in a stepper system unless everything is right anyway
03:20 PM roycroft: kill the motors
03:20 PM unterhaus: you might get a bump
03:21 PM roycroft: keep the pi running
03:21 PM roycroft: and i can keep the 24v running, because it won't matter
03:21 PM roycroft: it's just for sensors
03:21 PM roguish[m]: you may need the 24 for other things, like encoders and whatnot
03:21 PM roycroft: i don't know
03:22 PM roycroft: but the 24v won't be making anything spin
03:22 PM roguish[m]: it's good to keep the encoders alive..........
03:22 PM roycroft: so it should be safe tokeep it on
03:23 PM unterhaus: commanding it remotely adds issues though
03:23 PM roycroft: yes, but it won't be physically remotely
03:23 PM roycroft: just logically remotely
03:23 PM roycroft: the laptop will be right by the machine
03:23 PM roycroft: i really hope that works out
03:24 PM roycroft: if not, i'll have to figure out a way to put an hdmi display and keyboard on or near the machine somehow
03:24 PM roycroft: using a laptop with x forwarding would be much nicer
03:24 PM roycroft: but this is why i'm getting the pi right now, before i've even done much of the design of the actual machine
03:25 PM JT-Shop: roguish[m], the 7i76 I/O power must be on before starting lcnc
03:25 PM * JT-Shop goes to see if the third time is the charm with my JessEm magnet board
03:25 PM roycroft: i should be able to test the x forwarded user interface in simulation mode before i build the actual machine
03:26 PM roycroft: and i have stepper motors and gecko drives, so as soon as i get the 7i96 i should be able to bench test the whole motion control system,except the spindle
03:26 PM roycroft: and i'll be getting a spindle and vfd for it soon
03:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:1c809ee6-6e2d-441d-8df9-3c511c5ac202/dfmc-b10020-00sinumerikdachschriftenus-72.pdf
03:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: as long as you only use the IO and motor controls that Siemens supports then you can use them for machine control
03:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i think that the salesperson also confused open source with open architecture
03:55 PM XXCoder: *sigh* just read about covid party that sent few people to hospital
03:56 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the reverse psychology is working, they are self destructing
04:05 PM skunkworks: I don't understand as the voting base that is eating this up is their own...
04:08 PM XXCoder: i dont understand why either
04:08 PM XXCoder: my best guess is combo of tribalism and beliving or disbeliving purely by "my side or not"
04:20 PM roycroft: "i'd rather die than believe or act like the other tribe" is a bit extreme
04:22 PM roycroft: but here we are
04:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: well trained
04:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I read theories from psychologists that make excuses for it. "It's their way of coping with things that are out of their control"
04:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: they can control weather they get a shot or not
04:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the pandemic and it's effects on society are just to scary for them
04:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/10/how-anti-vaccine-fear-takes-hold/381355/
04:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: an earlier study of 25 nations https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/hea-hea0000586.pdf
04:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/better-or-worse/202108/the-avoidable-covid-19-disaster
04:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: a result of a deep existential anxiety
04:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prince-edward-island/pei-psychologist-anti-vaxxers-covid-19-1.6182396
04:34 PM roycroft: i've been more and more disillusioned with politics over the years, as it's gotten more tribal and irrational, and less about solving problems
04:35 PM roycroft: that disillusionment really accelerated during the 2016 presidential campaign
04:35 PM roycroft: and then shot up like a rocket during the pandemic
04:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the USA is approaching a tipping point of white vs non white
04:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's very scary for racists
04:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: knowing that they will lose majority very soon
04:38 PM roycroft: it's scary to the white people who see color as a discriminator
04:39 PM roycroft: which is probably most of the white people
04:39 PM hazzy[m]: CaptHindsight: that's what the mainstream media would like us to think. The only reason anybody give a crap about race anymore is because the media tells us we should
04:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roycroft: some consider that we have moved passed tribal and are into religious when it comes to politics
04:40 PM roycroft: well, i've been saying for years that the decline of religion is a large factor in the rise of political tribalism
04:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hazzy: big difference between how my and your generation see race
04:41 PM roycroft: and in my view, religion was the ultimate form of triablism
04:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's becoming less of an issue with younger people, still a big issue with the 60+
04:41 PM roycroft: correct
04:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: nice to see the change with younger people
04:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: also how they don't have the issues we had with gender and sexual preferences
04:42 PM roycroft: but then there is stephen miller and his ilk
04:48 PM roycroft: anyway, a lot of people, in this country especially, seem to have problems with self-identity, and require a tribe to belong to, whose primary purpose is to oppose all who are not part of that tribe
04:49 PM roycroft: rather ironic for the nation that fancies itself built on rugged individualism
04:49 PM roycroft: it's dangerous, if not impossible, to be an individual in america these days
04:49 PM roycroft: if you're not part of my tribe you have to be part of the other tribe
04:49 PM roycroft: by definition
04:49 PM XXCoder: im tribe of one
04:50 PM roycroft: that's not allowed in 21st century america
04:50 PM XXCoder: dont care :)
04:50 PM roycroft: we had a testy moment at dinner last night
04:50 PM roycroft: i mentioned that neither of the political parties in power have any interest in governing
04:51 PM roycroft: and one of my group said "that's not true - one party has a strong interest in governing, while the other does not"
04:52 PM CloudEvil: hah
04:52 PM cradek: I assume neither of you defined what you meant by governing
04:52 PM roycroft: i replied "i don't see it that way and can't see it that way - i see one party not wanting to govern, while the other party wants to destroy as much as possible while not governing. they're different, but neither want to govern"
04:52 PM CloudEvil: 'and anyway, that's how I got this scar'
04:52 PM cradek: has anyone heard from steve stallings in the last few years?
04:52 PM roycroft: i define it as doing the work of the people to better the country
04:53 PM cradek: ok now we're on "better"
04:53 PM roycroft: anyway, my friend replied "how can you be one of us and say that we're not trying to govern?"
04:53 PM roycroft: and i said "i'm not one of you - i'm not a registered member of either of the main parties, and i'm not in favor of either of them"
04:53 PM roycroft: which he knows already
04:53 PM roycroft: but he said "well i know you're not one of them, so you must be one of us"
04:54 PM cradek: ... I ask because he last posted to the lists in 2016 and was just unsubscribed because of his emails bouncing
04:54 PM roycroft: we're not on "better"
04:54 PM roycroft: we're just on "not everybody has to pick a tribe"
04:55 PM roycroft: which seems to be an incomprehensible concept these days
04:55 PM cradek: aha I remembered his company/website name
05:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hazzy: people up here still use the N word when referring to Obama, when I first moved out here if felt I slipped back to the 70's
05:15 PM hazzy[m]: CaptHindsight: interesting. I kinda thought we'd be more backward down here in the south, but we'd still respect the president, even if we didn't approve or vote for him
05:15 PM roycroft: a teacher in newberg oregon showed up to work in blackface recently, and was not fired for it, and that's far from the only such indicent there
05:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the 20 somethings and younger don't seem to have any issues with anyone except for old HS grudges
05:15 PM roycroft: there was an unofficial "swastika club" at that school until recently
05:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I have run into neo-nazi's out here
05:17 PM roycroft: but what is really most disconcerting about gen-z is that so many, while not overtly racial in their thinking or acting, see to be resigned to the idea that races cannot get along well, and think of segregation as a positive thing, as long as the segregation is done equitably
05:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I found out when joking in German with a local acquaintance who is from Germany
05:18 PM roycroft: along with that, the notion that everyone should be able to live their lives in "safe spaces" where they are not exposed to ideas that may differ from their own and that may upset them is quite disturbing
05:18 PM hazzy[m]: roycroft: 100% agree
05:18 PM roycroft: part of growing up and learing is being exposed to different ideas
05:19 PM roycroft: being challenged
05:19 PM roycroft: i fear for a generation who isolate themselves into their "safe spaces"
05:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: who wants them to grow up, they are being groomed to stay in line and follow the party orders
05:19 PM roycroft: it just increases the tribalism and decreases evolving as a species
05:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I can drive 20 minutes and reach civilization where they find my stories quite out of the ordinary
05:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if they listen to the hate radio I heard the other day I can see why they are what they are
05:21 PM roycroft: i'm afraid my close group of friends, all of whom are boomers and millennials, are falling into the "safe space" trap
05:23 PM roycroft: anyway, i'm done with work, and have to go get some new tires for my car now
05:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I only hear about it
05:23 PM roycroft: and then get back to working on the schematic diagram for my cnc router
05:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: never even mentioned outside of the news in my circles
06:55 PM roycroft: drawing schematics with autocad, not autocad electrical, is quite tedious
06:55 PM roycroft: it may be time to have another go with qelectrotech
06:56 PM roycroft: iirc, when i tried it before it was really easy to draw schematics and generate boms, but it was rather lacking in the symbol library, and i never figured out how to use the symbol editor
06:57 PM roycroft: a new release has come out since last i used it, so perhaps an upgrade will help
06:58 PM roycroft: learning french better than my first semester college course 40 years ago would probably help more :)
08:17 PM roycroft: and now i remember the problem - when i finally figure out how to open the element editor, the app crashes as soon as i start actually doing anything with it
08:18 PM roycroft: perhaps i should install it on a linux machine and see if it behaves better
10:07 PM captain_morgan: kicad is quite mature these days
10:12 PM roycroft: i'm not looking to do pcb design, which kicad seems to do best
10:12 PM roycroft: i'm more interested in block diagrams/schematics, bom generation, which qelectrotech seems to do well
10:12 PM roycroft: except it crashes on my macs
10:13 PM roycroft: so perhaps it's time to have another look at kicad, even though it's suboptimal
10:13 PM roycroft: it is probably still a lot better than autocad for what i'm doing
11:07 PM roycroft: kicad does not crash, and the symbol editor works, so it has that over qelectrotech already