#linuxcnc Logs

Sep 19 2021

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:09 AM Deejay: moin
01:32 AM serp6 is now known as serp
01:39 AM Eric_ is now known as unterhausen
01:39 AM unterhausen: I finally gave up and swapped out our modem and router
01:39 AM unterhausen: would have been faster, but it turns out 'b' and 'B' are not the same
03:21 AM fdarling: roycroft: I have done this "auto squaring" that you're after with dual Y-axis motor machines, these were servo machines not steppers, not that it makes much difference though
03:23 AM fdarling: with LinuxCNC 2.8, you have both motors be separate "joints" but tied to a single conceptual axis. However, the homing is performed on the joint level, and you have them home together in tandem. Once they have both stopped at their respective limit switches (which may not be in alignment, in which case it will slightly rack the gantry), you then have their "final move" to their home offset correct the switch misalignment
03:23 AM fdarling: to square it
03:24 AM fdarling: so the key is to have the home switches *roughly* aligned (square) so that it doesn't put excessive racking forces on the gantry when homing, then you relax that racking (or possibly force racking to get it square, in which case loosen and re-tighten bolts) when it does the final offset move
03:25 AM fdarling: the offset move is per joint, and typically you'd have one move and the other not move at all. You may have both move but just by different amounts if you wanted it to park after homing well away from the switches
03:26 AM fdarling: if you want more details, message me (mentioning my name) and I can elaborate
05:03 AM JT-Cave: morning
06:09 AM CloudEvil: fdarling: neat
06:36 AM JT-Cave: here is a video from 2016 demonstrating gantry homing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgNLd6A34Vo
10:32 AM unterhausen: someone in the shapoko group just posted a picture of a usb isolator that says usb isolator righ on it. They wanted to know what it is. Usb isolator, it's for isolating usb
10:33 AM unterhausen: Hth
10:36 AM CloudEvil: But not USB1+
11:34 AM unterhausen: anyone know what the red line means in hexchat? google is failing to answer that question
11:48 AM W1N9Zr0: marker line? shows you the last part of chat you've read
11:53 AM roycroft: if you're uncertain, i would advise not crossing it under any circumstances
11:57 AM Tom_L: ctrl-m will clear it
11:58 AM Tom_L: i think it's the last active line you saw while in that channel
12:14 PM JT-Shop: it's your monitor going out
12:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://mobile.twitter.com/aarondfrancis/status/1438888219471491074?s=20 pen plotter or handwriting bot?
12:46 PM gloops`: no good if it cant use a brush
12:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: gloops`: are you painting a barn?
12:53 PM gloops`: i mean for signwriting
12:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: who makes stepper motors with integrated drivers AND has outputs for the encoders?
12:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: gloops`: like an inkjet printer?
01:00 PM roycroft: the documentation for my gecko drives states that the supplied voltage to my stepper motors should be no less than 4 times and no more than 25 times the rated voltage of the motor
01:01 PM roycroft: the motors i have have a "voltage current/phase" specification of 3.78
01:01 PM roycroft: is that the number i use to caclulate the supply voltage from the drive?
01:21 PM jdh: I thought the gecko guy did 32x sqrt(inductance) for voltage
01:26 PM JT-Shop: CaptHindsight[m], JVL should have what you want http://jvlusa.com/
01:29 PM roycroft: the >4x and <25x are the limits to supply voltage
01:30 PM roycroft: 32x sqrt(inductance) is the calculated recommended value
01:30 PM roycroft: i'm just trying to understand my motors' documentation better
01:31 PM roycroft: phase inductance is 3.8mH, so 62.4V is the recommended voltage
01:31 PM roycroft: i'm looking at using 48v power supplies, which should be fine
01:32 PM roycroft: if "voltage current/phase" is the "rated voltage" then i should use a power supply that will provide 15 to 94.5v
01:33 PM CaptHindsight[m]: JT-Shop: thanks, they even offer absolute encoders
01:33 PM roycroft: i just found a good deal on some mean well 48vdc power supplies
01:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but https://www.flowprod.com/ is my local disti, so I have to look elsewhere
01:34 PM JT-Shop: I get mine from FPE Automation
01:34 PM JT-Shop: https://www.fpeautomation.com/
01:38 PM unterhausen: if they were typical industrial supply company they wouldn't let you go to a different supplier
01:38 PM unterhausen: why do they have 4 connectors?
01:39 PM unterhausen: I guess the encoder out
01:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yeah why some suppliers suck
01:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i have some useless distis
01:41 PM JT-Shop: I can call the president of FPE and ask if he services your area... Chicago?
01:42 PM unterhausen: I hesitate to even bother with someone who only gives out prices by quote
01:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I'll check prices first
01:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's possible to bypass a local disti
01:43 PM JT-Shop: ok
01:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: especially if you let the manufacturer know that you'd rather not deal with them
01:43 PM unterhausen: JT-Shop, have you bought from them?
01:44 PM unterhausen: It's too bad there is no encoder out option with clearpath
01:44 PM unterhausen: those motors are really nice, I played with one once
01:44 PM unterhausen: and they list the prices online
01:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: might be an easy mod
01:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I used some 2-3Nm off Amamzon that worked great and were only $100
01:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.amazon.com/Stepper-Integrate-Position-Encoder-Control/dp/B01MFA87KI/ref=pd_sbs_2/134-8600631-8101661
01:47 PM JT-Shop: unterhausen, several times and met the JVL guys in St. Louis and a FPE function
01:49 PM unterhausen: JT, how much did the motors you used cost?
01:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhausen: I never ask them about making mods, they treat their internals like it is some state secret
01:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I open and look
01:51 PM unterhausen: I'm always suspicious if they don't put out the encoders. Some companies use weird methods of keeping track of the position
01:52 PM unterhausen: although clearpath seems to be a glass encoder
01:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or almost works methods
01:52 PM unterhausen: I think the most obvious way of cheating is to use a glass encoder with analog interpolation
01:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i currently trying to find out how to access the encoders in denso robots
01:53 PM unterhausen: although that seems to be a lot of work in comparison to just using an appropriately scaled encoder
01:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just too see if they will actually tell me
01:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 10+ emails so far, and still at step 1
01:54 PM unterhausen: I thought you had been asking them about it for a long time
01:55 PM unterhausen: My robot had real encoders, but maybe that's why they aren't selling robots any more
02:00 PM unterhausen: really, it's an ex-robot now
02:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: CaptHindsight: yes, has become an exercise in can you actually find out a simple answer to a simple question
02:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's a slightly more difficult question than asking an inkjet printer co which heads are in a particular model printer
02:02 PM JT-Shop: unterhausen, I don't even remember it
02:02 PM JT-Shop: s been a few years since I needed any
02:03 PM unterhausen: Most companies like that have a guy that is very busy that designs the internals. Nobody else knows much, their job is to do something else
02:04 PM unterhausen: I met that guy at Ham Standard once, I was a bit surprised they let that happen
02:06 PM unterhausen: I didn't notice one of my green peppers was turning red. I picked it bare handed, which is turning out to have been a mistake
02:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhausen: yes, and i asked them to ask that guy or put me on the phone with him for 5 minutes
02:13 PM unterhausen: he only speaks japanese
02:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you know what i mean
02:14 PM unterhausen: well, do you speak japanese?
02:14 PM unterhausen: do they have a service manual?
02:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Enkōdā no kamisama, kantan'na shitsumon o shite mo īdesu ka?
02:15 PM unterhausen: copypasta much?
02:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: oh it's all top secret, they would have to make an engineering change to make it so
02:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: plus it's a Japanese co, so more fun trying to get sales to talk to engineering
02:18 PM unterhausen: we were in the fanuc booth and one of the guys hiding in the back came out to talk to my boss
02:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: oh great invisible angry man in the sky, why don't you exist?
02:18 PM unterhausen: Ph.d. precision machining guy
02:18 PM unterhausen: so they don't have decent repair manuals for those robots? That seems like a problem
02:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: your boss or the guy in back?
02:19 PM unterhausen: both
02:19 PM unterhausen: that's why the fanuc guy wanted to talk to him
02:19 PM unterhausen: turns out my boss is big in Japan
02:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Big in Japan
02:20 PM unterhausen: yeah, they wrote that song about him. Also tall 6'5"
02:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Big in Japan, Big in Japan, Big in Japan
02:21 PM unterhausen: there is a very small community that thinks highly of him, which really hasn't done him much good
02:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: oh man '74
02:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 84
02:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: well japan is lots of fun
02:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I might retire there
02:22 PM unterhausen: I haven't been there
02:22 PM unterhausen: I wanted to after I saw that Bill Murray movie
02:23 PM unterhausen: lost in translation
02:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Tokyo Park Hyatt, stayed there shortly after the movie came out
02:23 PM unterhausen: I had fun talking to Japanese guys in France. They thought it was too hot there
02:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the whole neighborhood is just fun
02:24 PM unterhausen: I was wearing my stars and stripes bike outfit, and we were having fun chanting "american f--- yeah!"
02:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Team uhmerica
02:26 PM unterhausen: heh, I have a welt from that pepper
02:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 109.98 Japanese Yen = 1 USD
02:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: good time to go if it wasn't for the pandemic
02:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Fanuc, Kuka, Staubli etc they all act like they have some secret Martian tech that you as a mere mortal would never comprehend
02:29 PM unterhausen: I'm not sure I'll ever make it, too far to fly
02:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if you ever get the chance, GO
02:31 PM CaptHindsight[m]: also S. Korea, Taiwan and I used to say Hong Kong
02:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I don't know if I'll even go back to china now
02:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/shopping/catalog/motors why come steppers aren't here?
02:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hazzy: move go smoothly?
02:37 PM enleth: CaptHindsight[m]: it doesn't help that robot user communities are full of cargo cult
02:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: steppers are in: Motion Control
02:38 PM enleth: "you can't do that, because you can't"
02:39 PM unterhausen: automation direct possibly has the worst website. Although MSC is close
02:39 PM CaptHindsight[m]: "Please rephrase question in the form of a sales question"
02:39 PM unterhausen: AD wouldn't let me login because I hadn't bought something in too long and wouldn't let me get a new account
02:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i get blank stares from : How do I buy it?
02:40 PM unterhausen: talk to a reseller
02:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I'd like to exchange my money for your product, how do I do so? Who do i contact?
02:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hazzy: happened at a show a few times
02:41 PM hazzy[m]: CaptHindsight: yes sir! Loaded 8 trucks yesterday and caught a late flight to ATL
02:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: \0/
02:42 PM hazzy[m]: Lol
02:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: did you set up cameras at night this time?
02:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: thanks again for the tool box, i could have helped save you from more trips to the dumspter
02:44 PM hazzy[m]: CaptHindsight: I was going to set up a live stream from a camera mounted to the tower, but didn't get a chance
02:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i didn't realize the gauge until we put it into the truck. is it #12?
02:45 PM hazzy[m]: Nothing was messed with, except somebody disconnected a light curtain in the night, which was strange. maybe a poor attempt to sabotage
02:45 PM hazzy[m]: Yes, 12ga
02:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: really, yeah sounds like it
02:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: note to self, have cameras on all displays at trade shows 24/7
02:46 PM hazzy[m]: I gave away two more toolboxes, and our truck drivers took the rest lol
02:47 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i was exhausted that day when i left, then on the way home i got a call that i had to go help with car problems
02:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: worked on a car until 11pm after driving it 30 miles in limp mode
02:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: was a zombie the next day
02:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hazzy: you left just before fall starts here, 89 today and 70's and lower after
02:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: saw high 30's at night for next week
02:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we had snow before halloween last year
02:51 PM hazzy[m]: Oh no! Emergency car work is not fun under the best or circumstances
02:51 PM hazzy[m]: We had them light the fires at the Hyatt Friday evening
03:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.amerimoldexpo.com/ in a couple of days
03:04 PM Guest54 is now known as MrSunshine
03:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hazzy: where every solution is "cast it"
03:09 PM MrSunshine_: hey, just got a new spindle -.- trying to set upt the 0-10v stuff but got a slight problem .. spindle doesnt turn on until 1v is reached, and has max speed at 9v ... how do i configure that? the simple configuration goes 0 - 10v
03:10 PM XXCoder: isnt you can set range to be 1-10v
03:10 PM XXCoder: erm 1-9 i mean
03:12 PM MrSunshine_: and 1v is 5000 rpm and 9v is 25000
03:13 PM MrSunshine_: gets a bit strange in the rangings =)
03:13 PM XXCoder: no, if i recall right theres settings you can set there
03:13 PM XXCoder: 1v as ero and 9v as max rpm
03:23 PM Nick-Shop: Is there somwhere a PLC program to control a 12 position tool changer on an Okuma Cadet lathe with LinuxCNC?
03:24 PM CloudEvil: Nick-Shop: Somewhere out beyond Barstow, on the edge of the desert.
03:33 PM MrSunshine_: XXCoder, well i cant figure it out atleast =)
03:34 PM unterhausen: there are examples of using classic ladder with tool changers, but I think you would have to be really lucky to find one for any given tool changer
03:34 PM infornography: Sorry I dont have anything constructive to say to you peeps, I still love linuxcnc tho
03:35 PM infornography: <3
03:36 PM MrSunshine_: https://snipboard.io/JVMBzQ.jpg this is how the rpm to voltage looks like on the spindle according to datasheet
03:36 PM unterhausen: the spindle page says to look at the nist spindle example in your case
03:37 PM unterhausen: nist lathe sample configuration
03:37 PM MrSunshine_: yes but its very poorly documented so i do not understand what they do and why it happends ...
03:37 PM MrSunshine_: :/
03:37 PM unterhausen: yeah, everybody says to follow that example
03:37 PM unterhausen: nobody says anything about it
03:38 PM XXCoder: sucjks when it becomes magic and not science
03:41 PM unterhausen: it isn't that bad, the scale hal component has an offset
03:42 PM MrSunshine_: yes but so has the pwm component ?
03:42 PM MrSunshine_: and even if use offset, shouldnt that just offset the start ? so 1 - 10v for example ... i want the 1 - 9v else the rpm scale will be off
03:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: "Is there somwhere a PLC program to control a 12 position tool changer on an Okuma Cadet lathe with LinuxCNC?" this question was asked just the other day
03:45 PM unterhausen: yeah, that's a problem I see it now
03:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: was it on the forums or on IRC?
03:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: same for the BOB's that don't go down to 0V for the spindle control
03:46 PM unterhausen: having the max speed at 9v isn't a problem, you just don't care above 9v
03:48 PM unterhausen: that speed curve below one volt looks like you could pretend it was linear and never ask for less than the minimum speed.
03:48 PM unterhausen: or put in a hal component that converts 0-1v to 1v
03:49 PM unterhausen: does limit do that?
03:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: use the same ZERO reference for the VFD and the BOB
03:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ZERO = the around 0.8V
03:51 PM unterhausen: that's not really the problem though, there is a minimum speed
03:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: MrSunshine_: which VFD are you using for this?
03:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and which BOB?
03:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: how do all the Mach applications solve this?
03:52 PM MrSunshine_: its a built in electric controller in the spindle
03:52 PM MrSunshine_: CaptHindsight[m], using a chinese bob that has 0-10v output from PWM on parport pin 1
03:53 PM unterhausen: it seems like high speed spindles all act this way
03:54 PM unterhausen: I'm a little surprised there isn't a special spindle comp for that purpose
03:55 PM Nick-Shop: Someone else's control for a 12 position tool changer like you see on an Okuma or another brand and I can work out the differences to control mine would do.
04:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the cheap Chinese BOB's don't go down to 0V
04:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: some solve this by inverting the VFD input in their setting to go from 10V max speed - to 1V for min speed
04:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: there is a long thread on the forums about this with schematics and wiring diagrams
05:04 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
05:04 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:05 PM snakedGT is now known as snaked
08:27 PM unterhausen: too bad some of the people on the forum with long running discussion of their projects don't post them on the forum
08:46 PM roycroft: i'm not sure my discussions of my projects would be of much use on the forums
08:47 PM roycroft: i still ask some pretty basic questions that would bore most people, i'm sure
08:48 PM roycroft: and no, i don't think you were referring to me at all
08:48 PM roycroft: but others who discuss their projects might feel much the same way - that posting them on the forum would not be of much interest
09:06 PM unterhausen: It might go better for you on the forum, I wasn't talking about you though
09:06 PM unterhausen: there is always someone that will answer a basic question
09:15 PM roycroft: i usually get what i need here, eventually
09:16 PM roycroft: i've somehow managed to not piss off everyone on this channel
09:16 PM norias_: hmm
09:19 PM _unreal_: speak for your self roycroft
09:19 PM _unreal_: remind me what am I angry about? I was not online
09:19 PM roycroft: i only ever do
09:21 PM * roycroft has no idea what may be angering _unreal_
09:27 PM norias_ is now known as norias
09:41 PM _unreal_: palm to face, sarcasm
09:58 PM roycroft: sorry, i do not follow that - i must be too dense
09:58 PM roycroft: it's probably not worth explaining, so we can just move on
09:58 PM roycroft: i hope you enjoyed your beachside mojitos or whatever
11:20 PM gloops`: so the spindle frequency divided by the voltage
11:24 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
11:26 PM gloops`: so 400 /10 only you havent got 10 youve got
11:26 PM gloops`: 8