#linuxcnc Logs

Aug 30 2021

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:20 AM unterhaus: I was watching a movie about killer robots, but it turns out every character is written to be annoying
01:47 AM Deejay: moin
02:07 AM randy: morning
03:13 AM XXCoder: interesting. how to render beewax https://youtu.be/Ck68V06ZqzA
03:13 AM XXCoder: note: gross
03:51 AM abetusk: Does anyone have experience with interfacing with the fiber lasers that are being sold now? I see everywhere that they're driven by EZCad(3?) but I'm wondering if this can be done with a Linux system and/or what the actual communication protocol is
04:07 AM Tom_L: morning
04:14 AM XXCoder: hi
05:35 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:35 AM XXCoder: ya
07:29 AM unterhaus: abetusk, it has been a while so I have forgotten how the interface works, but I saw a powder bed 3d printer being driven by an arduino
07:30 AM unterhaus: so lcnc could be made to drive the laser. Actually getting it to work is a different matter
07:33 AM unterhaus: there is a laser and plasma section on the forum and people are using lcnc for lasers
08:20 AM SquirrelMan5k_ is now known as SquirrelMan5k
08:33 AM serp: We do and I've seen others drive co2 lasers with linuxcnc but not seen anyone do fiber lasers... i don't know of any reason one couldn't but they are generally different with a moving mirror to aim instead of a gantry system
08:42 AM enleth: serp: linuxcnc should be fundamentally capable of doing this, but you'll need some detail work in the config and gcode postprocessor to achieve (or exceed) the same results
08:46 AM enleth: good laser controllers, for example, are inherently and constantly aware of the need to do beam power reduction to match speed when cornering
08:46 AM enleth: to not scorch corners
09:13 AM unterhaus: moving a mirror is done by a motion axis and it seems like most people treat the laser as a spindle
09:15 AM unterhaus: I think the system I helped with had analog control of the laser. The laser driver had another protocol available, but you didn't have to use it
10:08 AM enleth: PWM is common, too
10:09 AM enleth: anyway, it can be done, but not with any example configs or straight out of pncconf
10:09 AM burklefoo: Galvanometers usually use XY2-100 protocol for the deflection data
10:12 AM unterhaus: I asked pcw if he had anything that would run that protocol and he ignored me
10:12 AM unterhaus: I think it would be a real pain to run anything other than moving mirror on lcnc
10:13 AM burklefoo: Hostmot2 supports XY2-100
10:13 AM unterhaus: ha, maybe that's why he ignored me :)
10:51 AM unterhaus: galvos go cheap on ebay
11:10 AM CaptHindsight[m]: I have only used LCNC for lasers, fiber or RF CO2
11:13 AM abetusk: I was mostly hoping to use whatever protocol came with the fiber laser. One brand (I think) is Raycus and there's some tool chain involving EZCad, EZD files, maybe a dongle of some sorts and whatever communication protocol is from EZCad to the machine. Here's the link: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002419218342.html
11:13 AM CaptHindsight[m]: laser power vs etch depth or color depth is not linear
11:14 AM abetusk: Charlie-x had a blog post about the EZD file format: https://charliex2.wordpress.com/2020/01/31/fibre-laser-arrives-let-the-games-begin/
11:14 AM CaptHindsight[m]: http://www.jhckj.com/en_index.phpuses JHC galvo
11:15 AM abetusk: If the only option is to completely rip out the control hardware and start controlling the galvo directly, I guess that's the only option, but it would be nice to figure something out that is easier to interface with what's already available
11:15 AM CaptHindsight[m]: http://www.jhckj.com/en_index.php uses
11:15 AM CaptHindsight[m]: nice but time consuming
11:32 AM unterhaus: just scanning that blog post, the protocol doesn't look like a particularly good fit for lcnc
11:33 AM unterhaus: although maybe it's closer to xy2-100 than I think. It's been a long time since I looked at xy2-100
11:35 AM CaptHindsight[m]: get direct access to the galvo and the laser, skip the control
11:38 AM CaptHindsight[m]: spend time on g-code generation, converters and CAM
11:39 AM CaptHindsight[m]: and/or LCNC interpreters
11:56 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002285716617.html
11:57 AM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.amazon.com/Cloudray-manufactures-150mm%C3%97150mm-Systems-Systems/dp/B07RN6764R
12:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/H6a0f848f11ef45eea36e4d68d817a77fI.jpg
12:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: laser control connector pinout
12:57 PM unterhaus: did we decide the main problem with lcnc for 3d printers is the lack of 4 axis blended motion?
01:03 PM roycroft: i thought we decided the main problem with lcnc for 3d printes is that 3d printer owners want their controller software to be plug-and-play
01:03 PM roycroft: pick your printer model from a drop-down menu, then load your file and press print
01:07 PM roycroft: and i'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting that, nor that linuxcnc should not be packaged to support that
01:07 PM roycroft: but it's not there today
01:10 PM unterhaus: other people are not my concern, really
01:12 PM unterhaus: I'm curious why those kinds of people want to use lcnc though
01:12 PM unterhaus: along with the people that think lcnc should work as a gcode sender
01:14 PM roycroft: i'm not sure that the turnkey folks want to use linuxcnc
01:15 PM roycroft: i'm just saying that, as the overwhelming majority of 3d printers these days are appliances, most users want turnkey software, and since linuxcnc is not that (at this point), it's not an option for most
01:15 PM roycroft: we've had members of this channel who have done 3d printing with linuxcnc
01:16 PM roycroft: even one who bolted an extruder to the head of her cnc mill and printed that way
01:21 PM JT-MachineShop: propane co I've been using for years disabled my account and want's me to fill out all kind of crap... they want 1.999 per gallon, called a local propane company and no problem they will be by one day this week to fill my tanks for $1.799
01:22 PM JT-MachineShop: and to top that off my DRO board for the Powermatic drum sander will be here tomorrow
01:35 PM unterhaus: I think the good trajectory planner doesn't work with more than 3 axes
01:35 PM unterhaus: even if you don't care much about the trajectory planning for the extruder
01:36 PM unterhaus: but I'm trying to remember where I saw people talking about that
01:37 PM roycroft: i picked up a dro for my drum sander a couple weeks ago off of cl
01:37 PM roycroft: the wixey 510 - it's not the one i wanted, but i can make it work
01:37 PM roycroft: it's the kind for lunchbox planers, with the built-in display
01:37 PM roycroft: i'd have preferred a remote display like the one i have on my thicknesser, but i liked the cl price
01:43 PM JT-MachineShop: when the dro board went out all functions stopped working on the drum sander...
01:43 PM roycroft: oh, yours is a built-in one
01:43 PM roycroft: that sucks
01:44 PM roycroft: oh cool
01:44 PM roycroft: my mill controller is finally out for delivery, having sat around at the post office since thursday
01:44 PM roycroft: the local post office
01:45 PM roycroft: it was shipped from maine, kicked around in maine for two days, flown to oregon overnight, and then kicked around the local post office for 3+ days
01:45 PM roycroft: because it's priority mail, not regular mail
01:50 PM unterhaus: andy pugh suggested on the mailing list that a gcode interpreter that used "e" for the extruder would solve the problem.
01:50 PM * roycroft wonders if priority mail means it's a priority to not deliver it on time
01:51 PM roycroft: if you ever see pinkvampire ask her how she did it
01:51 PM roycroft: she's the one who slapped an extruder on her mill to 3d print
01:51 PM unterhaus: you can do it, it's not ideal
01:51 PM unterhaus: my 3d printer that I would like to use lcnc on it would benefit a lot from servos
01:55 PM * JT-MachineShop ponders the logic I need for the dog solenoid valve... out of inputs
01:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: adding the blending features that Andy said machinekit has to LCNC could be a nice little project
01:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/additive-manufacturing/43220-missing-features-in-lcnc-for-fff-fdm-printers#218840 and on the ML
02:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: same topic
02:04 PM JT-MachineShop: looks like ATT is down for the count in LaPlace and other places
02:09 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
02:22 PM unterhaus: Cap'n, I posted in there, but nobody had posted anything useful last time I looked
02:22 PM unterhaus: now they did
03:27 PM perry_j1987: how goes it
03:27 PM roycroft: i am sad today
03:27 PM roycroft: i just officially ran out of time to get that mail merge software working, and arranged to have our envelopes printed, which will cost a bunch of money
03:28 PM roycroft: but we'll be doing it as it's always been done, so it's not a new expense
03:28 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, why all the sudden did the propane co decide to screw you over?
03:29 PM Tom_L: heard from your brother?
03:29 PM roycroft: and now i'll have a year to get my dusty old troff/awk mail merge code that i wrote in the '80s spruced up and ready to go for the next one
03:30 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L, no, AT&T is down and Verizon is text only. I did text a friend that lives in Kenner but he has not heard from my brother either
03:30 PM JT-Shop: hmm the propane co can take a hike, the new one is much more friendly and cheaper
03:30 PM Tom_L: talked to a tree trimmer here.. he said everybody left to go down there but him
03:31 PM Tom_L: right next to the Aussie lady?
03:31 PM JT-Shop: the girl said all the accounts starting with some letters were deactivated
03:31 PM Tom_L: odd
03:31 PM JT-Shop: yea my buddy said there are a lot of trees down
03:32 PM Tom_L: it seemed very slow moving
03:32 PM JT-Shop: yep 9-10 mph
03:32 PM roycroft: that's the real problem - it essentially parked
03:32 PM JT-Shop: last I heard from my brother was 9pm just as the eye was reaching Reserve
03:32 PM roycroft: and it did not diminish in strength for a long, long time
03:33 PM Tom_L: the wind has changed direction where he's at
03:33 PM JT-Shop: by the time it reached Reserve it was a cat 3 with 120 mph winds
03:33 PM Tom_L: ~20-25mph
03:33 PM roycroft: it's almost dead calm in nola now
03:36 PM Tom_L: hopefully the new levees helped some
03:41 PM roycroft: there were tornado watches yesterday, but i haven't heard of any actual tornados forming
03:51 PM JT-Shop: the flooding in LaPlace is due to westerly winds blowing water from Lake Pontchartrain
03:51 PM Tom_L: yeah i saw that
03:51 PM Tom_L: it's blowing the other way now but alot slower
03:52 PM JT-Shop: flooding was over at 10am this morning
03:52 PM JT-Shop: it doesn't take much wind to flood the first LaPlace exit and that area
03:52 PM Tom_L: is it below sea level?
03:52 PM Tom_L: pretty close if it isn't
03:53 PM JT-Shop: close to lake level and it's all flat ground/swamp from the lake to there
03:53 PM JT-Shop: I used to live in LaPlace
03:53 PM Tom_L: huh
03:54 PM Tom_L: been to New Orleans a few times
03:54 PM JT-Shop: New Orleans is a whole different animal, it's below lake level and way below river level
03:57 PM Tom_L: when you were at galveston did you see the high water marks from katrina?
03:57 PM JT-Shop: it's been a long time since I was in galveston
03:59 PM Tom_L: what was that island you visited somewhat recently?
03:59 PM Tom_L: i was thinking that was out of galveston
04:00 PM Tom_L: err maybe that was Corpus Christi
04:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtxXiqpetrc live cam of the flooding
04:06 PM JT-Shop: maybe 2" deep lol
04:07 PM JT-Shop: that's in Norco
04:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: watched some of the live streams yesterday
04:23 PM CaptHindsight[m]: few inches to a few feet depending on CAM
04:26 PM roycroft: did you see any of the mississippi flowing backwards?
04:26 PM roycroft: that must be a pretty freaky sight
04:26 PM JT-Shop: LaPlace was flooded last time I was there for my grandson's graduation party
04:27 PM JT-Shop: what's freaky is to drive down river road and look UP at ships in the river
04:27 PM roycroft: i haven't been to nola since the mid '70s
04:27 PM roycroft: or anywhere near there
04:27 PM roycroft: i hardly remember the area
04:28 PM roycroft: we did ride the city of new orleans from chicago to nola once
04:29 PM roycroft: back when it was part of the illinois central line - before amtrak
04:30 PM JT-Shop: when I lived in Metairie and Kenner I almost never went to New Orleans, the exception was the few years I worked for the Saints
04:44 PM roycroft: i've only been there a couple times
04:44 PM roycroft: it's hot and humid there
04:44 PM roycroft: but that describes most of my trips to most cities in the south
04:44 PM roycroft: because we'd always go to the south in july or august
05:30 PM JT-Shop: I don't miss the 9 months of summer there
05:31 PM XXCoder: ouch
05:49 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, how's the lathe project goin?
05:49 PM JT-Shop: I put an attic whole house fan in the garage ceiling and ran it on low all day long with the garage door cracked open so the AC could keep up
05:50 PM JT-Shop: I have one solenoid that's not working, other than that everything is done
05:50 PM Tom_L: nice
05:51 PM JT-Shop: I'm going to swap a coil from one I'm not using so I can get a check and a break lol
05:52 PM Tom_L: any gcode updates?
05:55 PM JT-Shop: I didn't push anything this morning, putzing with zoneminder and trying to decide where to put G33.1
05:56 PM Tom_L: yeah
05:57 PM Tom_L: i put mine in the post under tapping
05:58 PM Tom_L: but there are already tapping cycles for tapping heads
05:58 PM Tom_L: i don't have one so i put G33.1 there instead
05:59 PM Tom_L: did you try a heatsink to see if that helped the rpi?
06:05 PM JT-Shop: no I just moved to a pc
06:06 PM JT-Shop: salad time
06:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: AC's never break in Oct to April
06:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: had a slow leak in one here had to charge it since today is the last >>80F day
06:23 PM abetusk: CaptHindsight[m]>, thanks
06:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and we are outtah Afghanistan!
06:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Where do we invade next?
07:11 PM unterhaus: Mach 3 ad. Strong language warning https://www.instagram.com/p/CS2KMsUpeek/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
07:11 PM unterhaus: that head got the slobber knocked out if it
07:13 PM cradek: > Yea, I started with Mach 3 on the Tormach 1100. It would freak out when using cutter compensation. Funny thing is, it would run fine for a while, then do a large circle & scrap the part. I moved to Pathpilot & have had no problems with cutter comp.
07:13 PM XXCoder: cringe
07:13 PM cradek: (wheee, I wrote cutter comp)
07:20 PM unterhaus: if you look at his insta, he found a problem with pathpilot in a similar manner
07:21 PM unterhaus: something about a bug that wouldn't properly load offsets
08:10 PM unterhaus: I didn't know you could run mach 3 on win 10. Must be 32 bit version
08:11 PM XXCoder: mach 3: 99.9% of copies is hacked
08:11 PM XXCoder: probably :P
08:25 PM JavaBean: that seems atleast a couple of "orders of magnitude" low... would figure atleast 99.99999%
08:25 PM unterhaus: it was cheap, so I assume that guy had a legit copy
08:25 PM unterhaus: actually am assuming you can still get a full license
08:27 PM XXCoder: theres definitely mach 4 for while now. might be mach 5 by now
08:27 PM XXCoder: 3 is still around because its hackable
08:27 PM unterhaus: Okay, they raised the price by $25 over the last millenium that it has been available
08:27 PM unterhaus: $175
08:28 PM unterhaus: there used to be a free version with limits, which I think is where the hacked version came from
08:28 PM XXCoder: ok im wrong about mach 5, but yah mach 4 there
08:29 PM unterhaus: The problem for him moving to anything else is he's going to have to integrate other hardware
08:29 PM unterhaus: someone offered to help him put lcnc and probe basic on there
08:30 PM unterhaus: so I wasn't thinking of parport step dir with lcnc, no hardware changes required
08:31 PM unterhaus: not sure I would run that machine with a parport, but you can throw a mesa in between and not change anything
08:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mach 3 ruined a few of my parts due to missed steps
08:33 PM XXCoder: even after you checked with sim?
08:33 PM unterhaus: it's a poor craftsman that blames his tools
08:33 PM unterhaus: Cap'n, any progress on the sense of taste?
08:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: negative on allspice and cloves
08:35 PM unterhaus: okay, according to me that's the good news
08:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: could taste the burned/roasting of my coffee today and can smell a few more things
08:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: so now i have to go back to the good coffee
08:36 PM unterhaus: sacrifices must be made
08:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: first day it didn't taste like hot water
08:37 PM XXCoder: had covid?
08:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: don't have any stinky tofu or other fermented delights to test
08:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: yes, started ~3 weeks ago, like a bad cold
08:38 PM XXCoder: ouch glad it wasnt life threatening though
08:38 PM roycroft: my controller just arrived
08:38 PM roycroft: but i am hungry
08:38 PM roycroft: dinner now, or a quick install then dinner?
08:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: how hungry are you?
08:38 PM roycroft: pretty hungry
08:39 PM XXCoder: hungry = distraction = no machining
08:39 PM roycroft: but i also have a pretty strong yearning to know if the mill is going to work or not
08:39 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and if the install goes bad do you keep working on the install or stop and eat?
08:39 PM roycroft: i do not intend to machine anything tonight
08:39 PM roycroft: once installed, i have to put the mill back where it belongs and that will take a couple hours
08:39 PM roycroft: my goal is to see if the spindle turns
08:40 PM roycroft: if it does, then i'll tidy up tomorrow and get back to work
08:40 PM roycroft: if it doesn't, then it's time to look for alternatives
08:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: breakthrough, had 2x pfizer
08:40 PM * roycroft decides to invest 20 minutes in the mill, then make dinner
08:40 PM XXCoder: ow thats rare. if it was that bad, i cant picture how bad it'd be for you if you didnt vaccine
08:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: but they don't tell you the variant since the FDA has not approved of any sequencing tests yet for Covid
08:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: brb
08:41 PM XXCoder: CaptHindsight[m]: be safe
08:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I have had 2 bouts with flu since January 2020, this was my 3rd
08:43 PM CaptHindsight[m]: earlier test were negative for Covid
08:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: had quadravalent flu shots the passed 2 years a swell
08:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: so just lucky
08:45 PM XXCoder: fun. i do need to get flu shot but meh
08:45 PM XXCoder: 4 months to go for me to get booster shot for covid
08:48 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the worst part was just being too tired to get anything done
08:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: 2 hours of any activity and I'd be done for the day
08:49 PM unterhaus: my son is teaching precalc to 75 students in person
08:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: still managed to pull an engine and cut apart some frame
08:50 PM unterhaus: not particularly happy about that rn
08:50 PM CaptHindsight[m]: big lecture hall?
08:50 PM unterhaus: I was wondering about that, haven't asked if they are squishing them in a room or not
08:50 PM XXCoder: :( hope theres space in least, and people respecting mask
08:51 PM XXCoder: one school, one teacher removed mask to speak story to students
08:51 PM unterhaus: penn state has some really big classrooms, and some of them have no windows
08:51 PM XXCoder: she infected most of class, as well as some other students since tables etc is still used
08:51 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ebay.com/itm/194286396499
08:52 PM CloudEvil: We're currently restrting school in the UK, with no vaccination of under 12s, and basically no protections at all.
08:52 PM CloudEvil: In the midst of a massive peak.
08:52 PM XXCoder: :( same as floria. goverator is literally banning masks in school
08:52 PM CloudEvil: I consider this intentional child murder.
08:53 PM XXCoder: and that state holy crap peaking hard
08:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I think I heard approval for 2-12 year olds by December
08:54 PM unterhaus: at least my son isn't at penn state, I just can't see how we are going to finish fall semester in person
08:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: CloudEvil: well we have over 600K dead and no conversations about accountability
08:55 PM CloudEvil: UK is slightly ahead on deaths/capita
08:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if there are they sure aren't in the news
08:56 PM CaptHindsight[m]: follow the money
08:56 PM unterhaus: I noticed a couple of months ago that the UK was doing okay, and I didn't understand how
08:56 PM CaptHindsight[m]: who benefits from this?
08:56 PM unterhaus: doctors are selling invermectin for $700
08:56 PM XXCoder: the faster ecomony goes smoothly again, the faster rich get richer fasteer
08:57 PM XXCoder: or indeed, cruelity is the point
08:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: you have to be blind or really dumb to not see what has be going on
08:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yet the big news story is Biden dropping the ball on the Afghan pullout
08:58 PM XXCoder: yeah
08:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: like a bad scifi novel
08:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: unterhaus: and a little talk of making Docs accountable for missinfo
09:00 PM unterhaus: absolutely. ER doc association promised consequences for it. Others need to follow
09:00 PM unterhaus: pull their board cert
09:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: will they follow through?
09:01 PM unterhaus: ER docs are pretty mad
09:01 PM XXCoder: i hope same applies to nurses
09:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.medpagetoday.com/special-reports/exclusives/94247
09:01 PM XXCoder: fire all antivax nurses
09:02 PM unterhaus: they thought they were going to get some time off to work on their cnc machines
09:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: well we started charging whistleblowers back during Bush/Cheney vs those committing the actual crimes
09:03 PM roycroft: it's alive!
09:03 PM XXCoder: way to go roy
09:04 PM roycroft: well worth the 20 minutes
09:04 PM roycroft: yes
09:04 PM roycroft: and the guy did replace exactly what he said he did
09:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: \0/
09:04 PM roycroft: i was able to see the new parts on the board
09:04 PM unterhaus: that's great, here's to another 12 years of flawless operation
09:04 PM roycroft: i have some elections work to do tomorrow after my day job, but tomorrow evening i should be able to put the mill back where it lives
09:05 PM roycroft: i'll be replacing that controller well before 12 years from now, i hope
09:05 PM roycroft: i plan on using something different when i do the cnc conversion
09:05 PM roycroft: but even when i do that, i'll have the old motor and controller for spares
09:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: are you also adding a slightly smaller fuse or bigger diode?
09:05 PM roycroft: no
09:06 PM roycroft: it is fused to factory spec
09:06 PM roycroft: it lasted 12 years on that fuse
09:06 PM roycroft: i'm going to finish the job i was working on when the board blew up
09:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: spindle motor drive?
09:06 PM roycroft: then i'm going to figure out what i'll replace the motor and controller with
09:06 PM roycroft: yes
09:06 PM roycroft: and procure those parts
09:07 PM roycroft: then machine the mounting bracket for the new motor
09:07 PM roycroft: actually, i have a couple small parts to do right after the current job is complete
09:07 PM roycroft: but the plan is to do as little work as possible with the mill until i make the mount for the new motor
09:09 PM roycroft: anyway, it is now time to make dinner
09:09 PM roycroft: i have sated my concerns about the mill
09:09 PM roycroft: now it is time to sate mah belly!
09:13 PM snakedGT is now known as snaked
09:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://i.imgur.com/VbGXb1T.jpg when you know the rust is getting blasted off
09:14 PM XXCoder: fun
09:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: what the water soluble soda suitable for air blasting rust?
09:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sodium bicarbonate
09:32 PM Tom_L: you beat me to it
09:33 PM Tom_L: ARMEX
09:33 PM Tom_L: https://www.armex.com/soda-blasting-media-faqs
09:37 PM CloudEvil: Or leave out the sodium
09:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I use if for anything engine or trans related since it rinses out with water
09:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: silica does not
10:00 PM enleth: in a pinch, salt works too
10:02 PM enleth: less effective and more corrosive if not rinsed out properly, but it works