#linuxcnc Logs
Aug 29 2021
#linuxcnc Calendar
02:10 AM Deejay: moin
05:03 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:03 AM XXCoder: o/
05:28 AM Tom_L: morning
05:28 AM JT-Cave: yo
05:29 AM XXCoder: lo
05:36 AM JT-Cave: we must have had a good birthday dinner I gained 2 pounds lol
05:37 AM XXCoder: lol
05:40 AM Tom_L: that's what birthdays and thanksgiving are for!
06:54 AM JT-Cave: hmm I can't find my instructions for changing the user name in the rpi, the one I found is not correct
07:01 AM JT-Cave: found it
07:11 AM JT-Cave: the hurricane is passing 15-20 miles west of my brother in Reserve La
07:11 AM XXCoder: im worried about that one
07:12 AM XXCoder: bad power out would kill so many there
07:12 AM XXCoder: people on assisted breathing systems
07:12 AM XXCoder: hopsitals is full there
07:13 AM CloudEvil: :/
07:13 AM JT-Cave: most hospitals have standby generators
07:13 AM * CloudEvil points in the vague direction of the whole USA.
07:14 AM XXCoder: jt they do. how long will it last? hopefully long enouhh
07:14 AM JT-Cave: my brother has 9,200 gallons of gas in his tanker truck
07:15 AM JT-Cave: I think he's in it for the long haul
07:16 AM XXCoder: its very rare for this place to lose power
07:16 AM XXCoder: last time was over 2 years ago, and it lasted 6 hours. last time it lasted THAT long or more was dunno so long ago
07:16 AM XXCoder: if it happens, its usually minute or 2
08:34 AM * JT-Cave wonders why programmers use 25 city names for time zones for the us... that's stupid just list the time zones
08:35 AM XXCoder: yeah I hate that too
08:35 AM XXCoder: like I can remember where cities is
08:35 AM JT-Cave: they don't have Poplar Bluff so why bother with other cities lol
08:35 AM XXCoder: it'd be fine if its like pacific time - la for example
08:36 AM JT-Cave: yeah
08:36 AM XXCoder: but if must be cities
08:36 AM XXCoder: why not more than one
08:36 AM XXCoder: list all major cities in states
08:37 AM XXCoder: wa it would be seattle, tacoma, spokine, and vancouver
08:37 AM JT-Cave: zoneminder must have 300 cities in america lol
08:37 AM XXCoder: fun
08:55 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:34 AM Tom_L: poplar bluff should be one :)
09:34 AM Tom_L: everybody knows where that is
10:07 AM JT-Cave: TurBoss, the Rpi for zoneminder is a bust, I can configure 1 camera and when I add the second it locks up the rpi
10:09 AM Tom_L: cameras quit working on ya?
10:14 AM JT-Cave: trying to setup a camera server again so I can view them from any pc and not have to use explorer
10:15 AM Tom_L: ahh
10:16 AM W1N9Zr0: does zoneminder have h264 recording yet? i started using shinobi instead because it does
10:16 AM JT-Cave: I'm not sure
10:17 AM JT-Cave: looks like zm 1.3.2 > has h264
10:18 AM JT-Cave: can shinobi show multiple cameras on a single page?
10:18 AM W1N9Zr0: yeah
10:18 AM JT-Cave: would it run on the rpi3?
10:19 AM * JT-Cave heads to the lean to to make some premium chicken dirt
10:29 AM Tom_L: JT-Cave, https://www.heystephenwood.com/2018/08/shinobi-on-raspberry-pi-3-b.html
10:30 AM Tom_L: maybe but sketchy?
10:30 AM JT-Shop: hmm I'll check it out in the morning
10:31 AM JT-Shop: hmm I might have needed cooling
10:31 AM Tom_L: oh, i bet so
10:34 AM JT-Shop: I noticed the rpi was quite warm...
10:59 AM Eric_ is now known as unterhausen
10:59 AM unterhausen: If you wanted to move two spindles at 127/100 ratio, how would you do it?
10:59 AM unterhausen: the first spindle goes whatever speed it's going, the second is synced to it
11:24 AM JT-Shop: there's more components than you can shake a stick at
11:34 AM unterhausen: I was surprised at how few there are on the web page.
11:34 AM JT-Shop: the web page?
11:35 AM unterhausen: linuxcnc.org, you've probably looked at it
11:35 AM JT-Shop: which page?
11:35 AM unterhausen: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/components.html
11:35 AM JT-Shop: I've written some of it lol
11:36 AM unterhausen: was being sarcastic, sorry
11:36 AM JT-Shop: yeah that page is mostly userspace components
11:36 AM JT-Shop: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/ scroll to the bottom of that page
11:36 AM JT-Shop: expand Realtime components and kernel modules
11:37 AM * JT-Shop wonders what happened to my nice columns... :/
11:38 AM JT-Shop: but first a nap
11:38 AM unterhausen: okay thanks
11:44 AM Tom_L: unterhausen, whodathunk?
11:45 AM Tom_L: and trust me jt has some damn big sticks!
11:45 AM unterhausen: I know he does a lot of the webpage
11:46 AM unterhausen: website
11:46 AM unterhausen: the page I looked at must be written by hand, it's nice to have a short description of the component
11:47 AM Tom_L: some of the older ones don't have much description to them
11:49 AM unterhausen: I know people have done electronic gearboxes. I was thinking it was done with a string of components instead of one
12:31 PM unterhausen: I thought I picked out the perfect motor to do this with, but then I realized it has no encoder on it
12:31 PM unterhausen: so I would have to mount 2 encoders, which is a lot of work
01:04 PM Tom_L: 16 yrs to the day New Orleans is getting hammered again
01:06 PM unterhausen: is it further away this time?
01:07 PM Tom_L: https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/surface/level/orthographic=-91.15,28.55,5883/loc=-89.700,29.253
01:27 PM unterhausen: N.O. says their levees are going to hold. Cue Led Zeppelin
01:31 PM Tom_L: cue Yellow Submarine
01:37 PM unterhausen: waterworld 3
01:46 PM JT-Shop: the issue for places like LaPlace and Reserve is the eye is passing on the west side so winds will be out of the south and push a lot of water from Lake Pontchartrain to the west
01:50 PM roycroft: ida is going to be worse than katrina
01:50 PM roycroft: hopefully the infrastructure has been improved enough that the damage will not be as severe
01:57 PM * roycroft wonders if his work's internet will be going down due to the hurricane
01:58 PM roycroft: we had major outages that lasted for days during katrina in our locations in western oregon that were served by centurytel
01:59 PM roycroft: and now that centurytel bought qwest it could be the same thing - all network operations and all network services were based in baton rouge
01:59 PM roycroft: and when baton rouge went down service nationwide went down
01:59 PM roycroft: on the data side
01:59 PM roycroft: telephony was ok
02:00 PM roycroft: but all their dns servers were in baton rouge, as were all their dhcp servers and authentication servers
02:14 PM JT-Shop: unterhausen, you might say I know a little about the documents, I've been working on them for 10+ years
02:15 PM unterhausen: I know
02:19 PM unterhausen: the page I looked at was the top result from google for "linuxcnc hal components"
02:19 PM unterhausen: second is "realtime components" which just doesn't immediately impress me as the page I wanted
02:33 PM JT-Shop: best to not use google and just open the documents for the version your using
02:43 PM unterhausen: I'll try to remember
02:49 PM unterhausen: Little dog thinks I'm going to feed her, but I'm not. Going to buy more dog food though
03:28 PM JT-Shop: my brother is without power or internet now and he's 50 miles north of the eye
03:29 PM Tom_L: not good
03:30 PM Tom_L: somebody in another channel read that this one is like once in 250y hurricane for LA
03:49 PM _unreal_: hum
03:49 PM _unreal_: and what about the CAT4 that hit that area last year
03:49 PM _unreal_: heh
03:49 PM _unreal_: well more twards the pan handle but just the same
04:03 PM JT-Shop: Roguish, what is that weather thing you showed me the other day
04:06 PM Roguish: JT-Shop, it's the Weather Undergroud https://www.wunderground.com/wundermap?lat=37.785&lon=-122.422&zoom=8&radar=1&wxstn=0
04:07 PM JT-Shop: thanks trying to see if I can get any wind info near my brother
04:07 PM Roguish: was an independent. now owned by IBM. IBM has been acquiring lots of weather services.
04:08 PM Roguish: here's another really neat one: https://www.windy.com/?37.988,-122.153,4,i:pressure
04:09 PM Roguish: that stuff is what the internet is all about.
04:09 PM Tom_L: jt if you zoom in on that globe thing and know the approx location you can get live windspeeds there
04:10 PM Roguish: he
04:11 PM Roguish: he's bandwidth disadvantaged.
04:11 PM Tom_L: yeah i forgot about that
04:11 PM Tom_L: that last one looks like it uses the same overlay though
04:13 PM Roguish: lots of overlays. check out the different layers on the right side.
04:13 PM Roguish: I like the pressure iso lines.
04:17 PM unterhausen: ida has 4 mesovortices in the eye. Looks neat, wouldn't want to be there
04:18 PM Roguish: JT-Shop, oh shit. is your bro down in Ida's path?
04:19 PM unterhausen: gif of it here: https://twitter.com/DanLindsey77/status/1432081038830800896
04:23 PM JT-Shop: he lives in Raceland La so yeah
04:24 PM JT-Shop: opps no Reserve
04:29 PM Tom_L: the eye is nearly over his head now
04:30 PM Tom_L: ~60mph
04:36 PM Tom_L: mph is less now that it hit land
04:38 PM JT-Shop: the eye is south of him moving NW at 10 MPH
04:38 PM Tom_L: i can somewhat tell, looking at that wind thing i have in relation to google maps
04:39 PM JT-Shop: noaa at 4pm reports 130MPH winds
04:39 PM Tom_L: the back edge is still around 71mph
04:39 PM Tom_L: yeah it's 5:25 there now
04:40 PM JT-Shop: Reserve is on Central time so it's 4:26
04:40 PM Tom_L: oh
04:40 PM Tom_L: yeah, i'm used to Savannah time when i'm down there
04:40 PM Tom_L: furthere E
04:41 PM JT-Shop: you have to go through Tennessee all day to get to eastern time
04:41 PM Tom_L: done that a few times :)
04:41 PM Tom_L: you talk to him?
04:42 PM JT-Shop: I'm texting him weather updates and eye location, he has no internet or power but has two generators
04:42 PM Tom_L: kinda slow moving for sure
04:47 PM solarwind: I may have access to some truck trailer axles
04:48 PM solarwind: LIke those standard box trailers with the huge wheels
04:48 PM solarwind: They're going to be scrapped, but I'm going to grab the axles. Would they be suitable for making a good trailer?
04:49 PM unterhausen: it turns out it pays to wash your hands carefully after cutting hot peppers in half for stuffed hot peppers
04:56 PM XXCoder: your other place is sensive, so wash hands before going to restroom too
04:57 PM Roguish: unterhausen, just don't wipe your eyes or pick your nose.....
05:00 PM roycroft: i learned years ago to wear gloves when cutting habaneros, or hold them with the produce bag they came in
05:00 PM roycroft: i wear contacts
05:00 PM XXCoder: fun
05:00 PM roycroft: after handling habaneros, no matter how well i would wash my hands after, my eyes would burn when i took my contacts out that night
05:02 PM roycroft: a few years ago i bought a guillotine type paper cutter and a paper folder from my boss for $20
05:02 PM roycroft: he was getting rid of them because the had "problems"
05:02 PM roycroft: the folder needed a new belt, which cost me $3
05:03 PM roycroft: the "problems" with the paper cutter were that it did not cut square, and it was uncomfortable to use because the handles had gone missing, and one had to pull down on thin steel levers to actuate it
05:03 PM roycroft: it took me about 5 minutes to square up the cutter
05:03 PM XXCoder: gee all easily fixable it seems to me
05:03 PM roycroft: and i just now turned a couple handles out of ash and epoxied them on the rods
05:05 PM roycroft: this new wood lathe is turning out to be a lot like my 3d printer - i'm not doing any kind of production work with it, and don't intend to, but it makes repairs on a lot of things quick and easy
05:07 PM XXCoder: too bad theres no such thing as portable space lol
05:07 PM XXCoder: would be so handy
05:08 PM roycroft: have you never read the harry potter books or watched the films?
05:08 PM XXCoder: well yeah but my thinking is from doctor who :P
05:08 PM roycroft: that too
05:08 PM roycroft: harry potter is more recent
05:09 PM roycroft: but i was always jealous of that bag that hermione carried around
05:09 PM XXCoder: if I get a wish, I'd wish for game inverory
05:15 PM solarwind: https://www.homedepot.ca/product/micropro-sienna-2-x-6-x-12-pressure-treated-wood-above-ground-use-only-/1000790082
05:15 PM solarwind: Are these _actually_ 2" x 6"?
05:15 PM solarwind: Or are they 1.5" by 5.5"?
05:15 PM solarwind: Kind of like how 2x4 are really 1.5"x3.5"
05:16 PM roycroft: as almost all construction lumber, they are nominal sizes
05:16 PM roycroft: they were once 2"x6", when they were rough lumber
05:16 PM roycroft: but once they were surfaced on all 4 sides and dried, they became 1-1/2"x5-1/2"
05:17 PM solarwind: Ok thanks. Just need to know how many I have to buy
05:17 PM XXCoder: it used to mean 2"x4" smoothed but they got cheap
05:17 PM roycroft: you should measure them - they may be 1-5/8" x 5-5/8"
05:17 PM roycroft: being nominal sizes, there is no guarantee that they will be the exact dimensions you seek or expect
05:18 PM roycroft: that's one of the things really like about working with hardwoods - no expectations and thus, no disappointments
05:18 PM roycroft: i mill to the size i need
05:18 PM JT-Shop: yup
05:19 PM solarwind: Well this is for a trailer bed, so it doesn't need to be precise. I'm going to run them through a jointer anyway
05:19 PM roycroft: the drawback is that i usually buy at least 50% more wood in total board feet for a project than i need, to make sure i have enough
05:19 PM roycroft: if you want the boards to be straight, and they are pressure treated, figure on 5" usable width per board
05:20 PM roycroft: they're not only going to be more like 5-1/2" wide, they're going to be bowed
05:20 PM roycroft: with pressure treated wood that's a guarantee, not a possibility
05:21 PM roycroft: if it were me i'd use something like mahogany or oak for the trailer bed
05:21 PM roycroft: better for the environment to not be treating the wood with heavy metals
05:21 PM roycroft: and mahogany or oak would be much more durable
05:22 PM roycroft: cypress would be ok, but it's softer and would get dinged up as badly as pressure treated pine
05:24 PM roycroft: i'm not sure how well yellow pine holds up to the elements, as it's not available in the west
05:24 PM roycroft: well, hardly available, and outrageously expensive when it can be had
05:24 PM roycroft: but it's a tough wood, and would be great for a trailer bed if it can withstand the elements decently
05:32 PM roycroft: around here i'd probably use untreated douglas fir, and expect to get 10 years or more of life out of the bed
05:41 PM roycroft: holy moly
05:42 PM roycroft: ida is still at category 4 strength, and has slowed to 10mph
05:42 PM roycroft: it's almost parked
05:43 PM roycroft: the mississippi river is flowing north now in southern louisiana
05:50 PM solarwind: Hardwood is really expensive
05:51 PM solarwind: The untreated boards are about 2/3 the cost, but not sure how lack of pressure treating would last outdoors
06:02 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
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06:09 PM roycroft: my main concern is that trailer beds usually take a beating
06:09 PM roycroft: if you're going to build a trailer and park it in your yard, pressure treated wood will last a long time
06:10 PM XXCoder: or plastic-alloy wood
06:10 PM XXCoder: those last forever
06:10 PM roycroft: but if you actually use the trailer, the pt wood deck is going to get destroyed in short order
06:10 PM XXCoder: it dont have to be all that wood, just abusive and rained on surfaces
06:11 PM roycroft: look into sapele decking wood - that's a lot more durable than pressure treated wood
06:11 PM roycroft: it's certainly more expensive, but it will last a lot longer
06:12 PM XXCoder: https://www.trex.com/why-trex/eco-friendly-decking/
06:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: is there a brand name for water resistant resin filled fiber board ?
06:14 PM Tom_L: ultrastock?
06:14 PM Tom_L: GP brand
06:14 PM roycroft: the problem with most decking wood is that it's 4/4 5/4, and a trailer deck really should be 8/4
06:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ultrastock is 80-99% wood, was wondering about <80% so it would be more water resistant
06:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://buildgp.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Safety-Data-Sheets-for-Wood-Products-UltraStock-MDF.pdf
06:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: METHYLENE BISPHENOL... (full message at https://libera.ems.host/_matrix/media/r0/download/libera.chat/60adabae2f35fe89450ff78ae34a8adcec8a9b54)
06:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe ultrastock coated in PVC or similar
06:25 PM roycroft: i try to avoid engineered wood products for applications like this, as although many of them use recycled materials, they're almost always downcycled and either less recyclable themselves or landfill fodder when they reach eol
06:27 PM XXCoder: yeah
06:28 PM XXCoder: thats why if i want a deck, most will be regular wood, with tops being plastic
06:28 PM XXCoder: rainproof. plus extremely long life
06:28 PM XXCoder: its made from palstics that cant really be recycled otherwise
06:29 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
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07:20 PM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
09:40 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, hope your brother is ok
09:40 PM Tom_L: and everyone down there
10:04 PM XXCoder: yeah
10:12 PM unterhausen: my twitter feed is depressing right now with people looking for help
10:12 PM unterhausen: But I liked this, "in retrospect, we should have taken the chimes down"
10:15 PM XXCoder: help in what way? work, etc?
10:15 PM unterhaus: rescuing from flooding
10:16 PM XXCoder: doh. yeah hope most libves
10:16 PM XXCoder: im worried about hospitals too, already full :(
10:16 PM unterhaus: top ripped off of one, generators went out at another
10:17 PM unterhaus: I am not sure they are likely to get a lot more patients, but taking care of the ones they have can be a challenge
10:18 PM Tom_L: seems very slow moving
10:18 PM XXCoder: expeciall ones on ipd and need it for air
10:19 PM Tom_L: likely full of covid patients
10:21 PM XXCoder: yeah
10:21 PM unterhaus: yes, it's moving more slowly than normal
10:21 PM XXCoder: just didnt want to state it
10:21 PM unterhaus: supposed to be here on wednesday
10:27 PM unterhaus: I should go out and plant my fall lettuce
10:27 PM roycroft: i am still struggling to get a working mail merge setup for printing on envelopes
10:27 PM roycroft: i can't believe how difficult this has turned out to be
10:28 PM Tom_L: tools?
10:28 PM roycroft: it seems that 100% of current mail merge software apps are designed for email, not letters
10:29 PM roycroft: today i dug an old imac out of my closet and installed os x 10.8 on it
10:29 PM roycroft: and i'm now installing ilife '09 on that
10:29 PM roycroft: er, iwork '09
10:29 PM roycroft: which has the only version of pages ever released that does mail merge
10:29 PM roycroft: but it does it flawlessly
10:30 PM unterhaus: that's funny, I knew people that got a computer to print the labels for their christmas card list
10:30 PM roycroft: labels are not so bad to do
10:31 PM roycroft: i can do those with libreoffice
10:31 PM roycroft: but it absolutely will not deal with envelopes
10:31 PM XXCoder: talking about xmas, https://youtu.be/TvlpIojusBE pretty cool
10:32 PM roycroft: this is going to work, but it's not going to be fun
10:32 PM roycroft: and i can't really say yet that it will work
10:32 PM roycroft: i have to install the printer driver still
10:33 PM roycroft: i just did a sample mail merge
10:33 PM roycroft: so that part works
10:33 PM roycroft: this is not a solution, though - it's a band-aid
10:34 PM roycroft: i can't rely on software that's well over a decade old and a computer that's a decade old to run this list every year
10:34 PM roycroft: but if i get through this election i'll have the better part of a year to come up with something better
10:53 PM roycroft: and the printer driver for that version of os x does not handle the custom paper size
10:53 PM roycroft: i may be able to print to pdf and copy the print file to my current imac and print from there
10:57 PM Tom_L: what a cluster
11:09 PM roycroft: no dice with taht
11:09 PM roycroft: the pdfs it produces want to format as a4 on the new imac
11:09 PM roycroft: i've been working on this every night for a week
11:09 PM roycroft: and all day today
11:09 PM roycroft: and all night tonight
11:09 PM Tom_L: i use word and merge a data file
11:09 PM roycroft: i don't have word for mac
11:10 PM roycroft: well, not a version that i can run - the last time i bought office mac was in like 2003
11:10 PM Tom_L: mine is pretty old and plan to keep it that way :)
11:10 PM Tom_L: it works
11:11 PM roycroft: the one version of pages that does mail merge works through the os release one before what i'm running currently
11:11 PM Tom_L: although it would take me a while to create a new merge since i haven't set one up in years
11:11 PM roycroft: i think i have a vm image of the previous version still, which runs that version of pages and also supports the current printer driver
11:12 PM roycroft: we need to start stuffing ballots in envelopes on 18 september
11:12 PM Tom_L: i did have one print driver i had to use a similar printer on which makes it run slow
11:12 PM roycroft: and if i can't get this working and we need to send the envelopes to the printers to have the return address printed i need two weeks lead time for that
11:13 PM roycroft: so i basically have until the middle of next week at the absolute latest to get this working
11:13 PM Tom_L: com10 envelopes?
11:13 PM roycroft: no
11:13 PM roycroft: they're no. 11 size
11:13 PM roycroft: that's the issue
11:13 PM roycroft: if they were no. 10 it would be trivial
11:13 PM roycroft: but it's a custom size
11:13 PM Tom_L: oh that's right
11:13 PM Tom_L: you need a return inside it
11:14 PM roycroft: we mail a ballot + instructions + secrecy envelope + return envelope
11:14 PM roycroft: so we need big envelopes
11:14 PM roycroft: i can kind of make it work by telling everything it's a #10 and then just sticking #11 envelopes in the printer, but that leaves huge margins and looks horrible
11:15 PM roycroft: i found a vm image of os x 10.14 - the one i need
11:15 PM Tom_L: 4 1/2 x 10 3/8
11:15 PM roycroft: yes
11:16 PM roycroft: this is absolutely not what i'm doing next year
11:16 PM roycroft: next year i think i'll go way back to the '80s
11:16 PM roycroft: i did a lot of mail merge stuff back then
11:17 PM roycroft: with a custom macro package that i wrote for troff, that extracted data out of an informix database
11:17 PM roycroft: i'll go dust that stuff off and fix it up for this application :)
11:18 PM roycroft: and i haven't written a troff macro in years
11:18 PM roycroft: but i bet if i had gone that route when i first started with this crap i'd have been done a long time ago
11:18 PM Tom_L: what format are the names in?
11:18 PM roycroft: whatever i need
11:18 PM roycroft: the "official" list i get is in an excel spreadsheet
11:19 PM roycroft: but i can do csv with no problem directly from excel
11:19 PM roycroft: and i can also cheat and query the database directly
11:19 PM roycroft: the person who is training me doesn't trust data manipulation with databases
11:19 PM Tom_L: yeah i do both
11:19 PM roycroft: she thinks databases are for storing data
11:19 PM Tom_L: excel, dbf
11:19 PM roycroft: and spreadsheets are for manipulating the data
11:20 PM roycroft: so she exports from the database to excel, does her stuff, and then pushes the spreadsheet back to the database
11:20 PM Tom_L: hah
11:20 PM roycroft: i figured out on day one to just let her do her thing
11:20 PM roycroft: and to do it her way for now
11:20 PM Tom_L: what database?
11:20 PM roycroft: until she retires and i'm in charge
11:20 PM roycroft: it's mysql
11:20 PM Tom_L: k
11:20 PM Tom_L: i export to that
11:21 PM Tom_L: i have that on my phone
11:21 PM XXCoder: mysql. better than hand written cvs or something lol
11:21 PM Tom_L: i still use dos for a couple old apps i maintain
11:21 PM Tom_L: dbase
11:21 PM roycroft: the funny thing is, twice so far in this election cycle she has done her data manipulation wrong
11:21 PM Tom_L: but do all the printing in windows
11:21 PM roycroft: and i not only was able to determine that it's wrong, i told her exaclty how she sorted it wrong
11:21 PM Tom_L: how many names?
11:22 PM roycroft: she did it with her spreadsheets
11:22 PM roycroft: i did it with a database query
11:22 PM roycroft: ~5500
11:22 PM roycroft: when her spreadsheets produced erroneous results, i adjusted my query to come up with the results she did, and then showed her where she went wrong
11:23 PM roycroft: her response both times was "oh, yes, i must have done that, but i still don't trust databases"
11:24 PM roycroft: i suppose that with excel one could write macros to do the sorts and have some semblence of an audit trail
11:24 PM Tom_L: just highlite the columns and sort by column order
11:25 PM Tom_L: less time consuming than writing a macro
11:25 PM Tom_L: for a one off anyway
11:26 PM Tom_L: i forgot how to edit my templates though :)
11:27 PM roycroft: but it can't be audited easily
11:27 PM roycroft: that's the issue
11:28 PM roycroft: and one of the ones she screwed up was the voter purge list
11:28 PM roycroft: the bylaws require members to be purged from the voter list if they have not voted in at least one of the last 3 elections
11:28 PM Tom_L: dead simple in a database
11:28 PM roycroft: yes
11:29 PM roycroft: but her sort would have purged several hundred voters who did vote
11:29 PM Tom_L: woopsie
11:29 PM roycroft: and when you're sorting in a spreadsheet you can't go back and audit what you did
11:29 PM Tom_L: no not really
11:29 PM XXCoder: ouch yeah. not very reversable and analsys would be hard
11:30 PM XXCoder: must be careful when working on that kind styff
11:30 PM roycroft: but with a database you can do select * from table where foo and bar and not foobar
11:30 PM roycroft: and that won't alter the database
11:30 PM roycroft: and you can run it multiple times and get the same result
11:30 PM Tom_L: i did one for boeing they were scared of
11:30 PM XXCoder: i wonder if its make work
11:30 PM roycroft: and pass the query string on to someone else to be sure you did not mess up the logic
11:30 PM Tom_L: it just had some big fields was all
11:30 PM XXCoder: ie spreadsheel is lot more time = more work and "nobody else can do"
11:30 PM Tom_L: they just couldn't figure it out
11:30 PM roycroft: before finally changing "select" to "update"
11:31 PM roycroft: this person's main issue is really not spreadsheet vs. database
11:31 PM Tom_L: i'm sure you'll figure it out. i'm off to sleep
11:31 PM roycroft: it's "on my computer" vs. "on a server"
11:32 PM roycroft: she likes her spreadsheets because she can keep them on her computer
11:32 PM roycroft: she doesn't like databases because they are not on her computer
11:32 PM XXCoder: isnt that privacy issue
11:32 PM roycroft: she trusts her computer and does not trust the server
11:32 PM roycroft: but her computer is connected to the internet, and it runs windows
11:32 PM roycroft: and she gets email on it and browses websites on it
11:32 PM XXCoder: yeah privacy issue
11:33 PM roycroft: the server is more secure than her computer :)
11:36 PM roycroft: hmm, the 10.14 vm was only partially installed
11:36 PM roycroft: it's going to take an hour to finish the install
11:37 PM * roycroft decides to take a break
11:37 PM roycroft: yeah, now it says it's going to take 254,000 hours to finish
11:37 PM roycroft: i'll take a very long break :)
11:38 PM XXCoder: yeah just few decades
11:38 PM XXCoder: hire me to watch machine
11:39 PM roycroft: when i finally gave up on libreoffice and decided to try to do this with pages '09 i was really impressed that i was able to find my iwork '09 cd in about 2 minutes
11:47 PM XXCoder: you must be thousand times more organized than me
11:50 PM roycroft: i am fairly organized, but i this case i just got lucky
11:50 PM XXCoder: :)
11:50 PM roycroft: the os install failed because it's no longer on the app store
11:50 PM roycroft: but i found a 10.13 vm image that is working
11:51 PM roycroft: i was supposed to take a break, but i think i'm close to a solution and want to finish it up
11:53 PM XXCoder: hope you solve it
11:54 PM roycroft: i'll get it sorted somehow
11:56 PM roycroft: i actually spent a couple hours in the shop earlier today, so i haven't been working on this all day long
11:57 PM roycroft: but pretty much steadily since 7am, other than that couple hours
11:59 PM XXCoder: banana