Jul 07 2021
01:28 PM Joe_Hildreth: Thanks Andy.
01:35 PM Joe_Hildreth: What is the best way to communicate with Chris Morley, email group?
01:35 PM Joe_Hildreth: John, who provides support for Mesa cards, documentation, software and such?
01:38 PM andypugh: The PROB_RFX firmware will fix the pinout to be the same as the pin-in(?) of that BoB. You can’t change the pin functions in HAL, a step is always a step and a dir is always a dir (of course, you can freely choose which axis each one drives)
01:39 PM andypugh: There is some scope for confusion between the FPGA IO pin numbers and the DB25 pin numbers.
01:40 PM andypugh: Joe_Hildreth: THis might be clearer, it’s the VHDL for the firmware:
01:40 PM andypugh: https://github.com/LinuxCNC/hostmot2-firmware/blob/master/src/PIN_PROB_RFx2_34.vhd#L109
01:41 PM Joe_Hildreth: Andy, abstracting this a little bit, if I am looking at the DB25 on the 5i25 / 6i25, does it follow the same pin numbering and data direction as a parallel port would be when set in out mode?
01:41 PM Joe_Hildreth: I will look
01:42 PM andypugh: The DB25 can (and often will) follow the direction limits of the P-port, but it does not have to. Any 6u25 pin can be input or output (except for the GND pins)
01:43 PM andypugh: If you look at the link, pwmgen.00 is linked to ip pin 01 which is DB25 pin 14. Stepgen.3 direction is is IO12 and DB25 pin 9, and is A-DIr on the RFX board aoutputs.
01:45 PM Joe_Hildreth: OK, I see what you mean, but for it to be compatible with a BoB, like CNC4PC C10 board, It would need to appear like a parallel port, correct? I looked at the link you gave me and it does show the pins. pnconf is a bit confusing in the numbers it displays to the left of the function.
01:47 PM andypugh: I don’t know what you mean by “appear like a parallel port”. I thought I knew but then you kept asking the same question again...
01:47 PM Joe_Hildreth: The pin mapping to the DB25 connector is shown in the .PIN file from the software downloaded also. At least this is what it looks like to me.
01:48 PM andypugh: pncconf has no idea what firmware is on the card. You need to tell it.
01:48 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: which DB25 pins are used for what is dependent on the bitstream you upload - for example if you're using a Mesa I/O card on the other end of the DB25 cable, you do not ever care for the cable pin assignment, because the numbers in pncconf correspond to the input and output numbers on the I/O card, the numbering on the cable is skipped and abstracted away
01:48 PM Joe_Hildreth: I am sorry Andy. I don;t mean to be ignorant. It comes natural to me. Here is what I am trying to do ..
01:48 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: first things first, you need to ensure the bitstream/firmware you put on 5i25 matches the I/O card, whether it's a Mesa card or a BOB
01:48 PM Joe_Hildreth: I am trying to make a natural progression from a machine that originally ran parallel ports and break out boards
01:49 PM andypugh: Right, so you need a bitfile that matches the pin-in of those BoB.
01:49 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: I've never done that (only planning to, but no time), but I would assume that if the bitstream matches the BOB you have, you will also be able to ignore the raw DB25 pinout
01:50 PM Joe_Hildreth: So, My thoughts are, 5i25 or 6i25 running the PROB_RFX2 software and using existing BoB and hardware.
01:50 PM andypugh: If the BoB needs a charge pump on a pin whrer the bitfile puts a stepgen dir pin, then that bitfile won’t work.
01:50 PM enleth: because pncconf will operate within the realm of numbering on the BOB - that is, if pncconf can understand it
01:51 PM andypugh: Why PROB_RFX? Are the BoB Probotix RFx boards? If they are, then yes, that’s the one to use.
01:52 PM Joe_Hildreth: I want to demonstrate this in a video tutorial. The Break out boards that I have do not require a Charge pump. OH ... I thought the prob_rfx was a generic file to use for a generic BoB
01:52 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: so the first question is - what's the BOB you're using and whether any existing, pre-built bitstream supports it directly
01:52 PM enleth: it the answer to the latter is "yes", you don't care about DB25 pinout
01:52 PM Joe_Hildreth: The manual states the following: The PROB_RFX2 configuration is a step/dir configuration intended to work with
01:52 PM Joe_Hildreth: most common parallel port breakouts. Two breakouts are supported, one on each of the
01:52 PM Joe_Hildreth: 6I25s I/O connectors. The configuration includes eight hardware step generators, two
01:52 PM Joe_Hildreth: encoders with index, two PWM generators , a watchdog timer and GPIO.
01:52 PM enleth: it will Just Work
01:53 PM andypugh: There are others. dmmbob, c11g, G540, pmdx126
01:53 PM andypugh: The g540 has a charge pump.
01:54 PM andypugh: 5ABOB has (at a guess) more stepgens.
01:54 PM Joe_Hildreth: These configs are not mentioned in the Docs for the 6i25.
01:55 PM Joe_Hildreth: the gh540 is
01:55 PM Joe_Hildreth: mentioned
01:55 PM andypugh: I am looking through the list of firmwares in the 5i25 firmware zip file.
01:55 PM Joe_Hildreth: Yes sir.
01:55 PM andypugh: Which 6i25 docs are you looking at?
01:56 PM andypugh: 6u25man.pdf, or something on the LinuxCNC site?
01:56 PM andypugh: (6i25man.pdf I mean)
01:56 PM Joe_Hildreth: I guess I was looking for a way a hobbyist could get away with using most of their old hardware and the 5i25 or 6i25 replace the parallel port.
01:57 PM Joe_Hildreth: The 6i25 manual from the Mesa site. (pdf file)
01:57 PM enleth: and you might well find a way, but start with identifying your BOB
01:57 PM andypugh: Top Tip! To find any Mesa card manual, just google for the card and append “man”. So 6i25man, 8i20man etc
01:57 PM Joe_Hildreth: Cool thanks for the tip.
01:58 PM enleth: then look for a match in the bistreams, if it's not some weirdo rare BOB, there will be a match
01:58 PM enleth: *bitstreams
01:59 PM andypugh: So, start with the PROB firmware, and compare the pins to what the BoB expects. If there is no major mis-match then it’s all good. The directions will definitely match for a BoB-bsed firmware, but might not do for a Mesa daughter card firmware.
02:00 PM andypugh: The PBX seems to be a jplly expensive example of the genre!
02:01 PM andypugh: Not a lot cheaper than a 7i76, for example.
02:08 PM Joe_Hildreth: The BoB I use for example allows you to set the direction of the data bits (pin 2-9), while the others are input or output as defined by the parallel port. I am sorry for all the confusion. I will look at the available configurations to see what works for me. The only drawback would come if a configuration is selected that is not supported by
02:08 PM Joe_Hildreth: pnconf.
02:09 PM Joe_Hildreth: Thank you both for your help and time. I really do appreciate it. :-
02:09 PM Joe_Hildreth: :-)
02:10 PM Joe_Hildreth: enleth: when you say bitstream, you mean how the bits on the card are defined by the config file you loaded onto it, correct?
02:11 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: this is how an FPGA firmware is called
02:11 PM andypugh: I have ben assuming that he was meaning the .bit file with which you flash the card to change the firmware.
02:11 PM enleth: andypugh: yes
02:11 PM Tom_L: soooo confusing!
02:11 PM enleth: technically, it's not firmware, but you can think of it as firmware, as you're probably familliar with the concept
02:12 PM Joe_Hildreth: OK, that's what I thought too. Sorry folks that I am a bit dense with this stuff. I am a bit out of my wheelhouse.
02:12 PM andypugh: I think that with the 5i25 and 6i25 is _is_ firmware. Buit it isn’t with the 5i20 (for example) as in that case it is volatile...
02:12 PM enleth: (it's not firmware, because firmware is a type of software, and FPGAs operate at a lower level, they don't execute programs - but it's arguably a technicality)
02:13 PM Tom_L: now we're just splitting hairs
02:13 PM andypugh: Especially as some of the bit files have CPU cores in them,,,
02:13 PM Joe_Hildreth: I think from a non-tech sort of person, I am installing these into a non-volatile ram so it "Feels" like firmware. :-)
02:14 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: yes, the practical implications are pretty much all the same as flashing firmware onto an appliance
02:15 PM andypugh: With the earlier cards (5i20, 5i22, 5i23(?) you needed to download a firmware to the card every startup, as it lost all programmming on power-down.
02:16 PM enleth: andypugh: 5i25 has a flash chip but you're still flashing in a hardware logic block connection diagram, not machine code for a CPU
02:17 PM andypugh: Sometimes you are flashing in a CPU :-)
02:17 PM Joe_Hildreth: Just as some background. I purchased a 6i25 and a 7i76 card. I want to make some tutorial videos of these to go along with some of the other tutorial videos I have made. While reading the docs to the 6i25, I saw the prob_rfx2 config that said it supports most break out boards. In my little brain, that means if I had a router I originally built
02:17 PM Joe_Hildreth: with parallel port and break out board that I could upgrade my machine to use the 6i25 and use the hardware stepping.
02:17 PM enleth: there might be a CPU in there and then possibly there is some machine code for that CPU glued onto the end of the flash image
02:18 PM andypugh: Joe_Hildreth: Yes, that’s a very good use for a Mesa card. I converted my first CNC to Mesa that way using a 7i73. (so still using the PC parallel port, for comms to the Mesa card..)
02:18 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: your assumptions are correct, it's just that the remark in prob_rfx2 config might be a bit misleading
02:18 PM andypugh: Sorry, I mean 7i43
02:20 PM Joe_Hildreth: So this upgrade option is possible providing the pins on the 6i25 are compatible with the break out board, correct?
02:20 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: it's also possible that this remark used to be true x years ago, but other, incompatible types of BOBs came onto the market in the meantime and became prevalent
02:20 PM enleth: and now it is more likely that a G540 or 5ABOB firmware will match the BOB you have
02:21 PM enleth: so step 0 is just to figure out which of the existing options matches the BOB you have
02:22 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: and in the off-chance that none do, it is possible to create a new one that does
02:23 PM Joe_Hildreth: I will need to look at the 5ABOB. I am a newbie in this realm. I want to look at the .pin files included in the configs to see what function is mapped to a certain external pin and check if it is compatible with my particular BoB, correct?
02:23 PM andypugh: Yes.
02:23 PM andypugh: If you feel like makign a table….
02:23 PM Joe_Hildreth: I am trying to get the cookie jar to my level. :-)
02:24 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: before you do that, see if the place that sells your BOB or the datasheet/docs for it mention anything about compatibility with "G540", "generic 5 axis BOB" or another term like this
02:24 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: see if there's a Mach3 tutorial for that BOB
02:25 PM enleth: it might say "set Mach3 to use a G540" or something like this
02:25 PM Tom_L: if you want to look at the pin files you will need to look at the .vhd soruce for them to make any sense of it
02:25 PM Joe_Hildreth: OK, let's pretend that the 5ABOB is the configuration I need to run on the 6i25. pnconf does not support this setup, how would I go about setting the machine up? Are there docs somewhere I can look at?
02:26 PM andypugh: Well, this is where it gets a bit confusing, because it often doesn’t matter....
02:27 PM Joe_Hildreth: Tom, tehh .vhd files in the source code folder, right?
02:28 PM Tom_L: yup
02:28 PM andypugh: pncconf will allocate (for example) stepgen.0 to the X-axis, and if the firmware matches the BoB then X pulses will come out of the connector marked “X” even if the firmware selected in pncconf doesn’t match the firmware actually on the card.
02:30 PM Joe_Hildreth: OK, I see what you mean about BoB. Mine are quite rudimentary break out boards. They literally just bring the pins to the outside world. Nothing like a g540 fro example that allocate pins to certain functions. X -Step and X-Dir for example.
02:31 PM Joe_Hildreth: Seems to me that a break out board should do just that, break the pins out where you can attach to them. :-)
02:31 PM Joe_Hildreth: I told you guys I am a pretty green newbie.
02:32 PM andypugh: Well, sometimes there is a charge-pump, or a spindle relay, or a pwm-to-voltage which makes one or more pins specific in function.
02:32 PM Joe_Hildreth: https://www.cnc4pc.com/c10-bi-directional-parallel-port-interface-card.html
02:34 PM Joe_Hildreth: These are the BoBs I have and judging from the pin definitions on the prob_rfx2 config, I should be able to use it. AT least at a cursory glance.
02:35 PM andypugh: In that case, I would say definitely.
02:36 PM Joe_Hildreth: Thank you again guys for the help.
02:37 PM Joe_Hildreth: I guess I never thought of a break out board more than just passing pins to the outside world. The others I would have considered more function specific, like the g540, for example.
02:39 PM Tom_L: some of the very basic ones still provide an analog io for spindle
02:40 PM Tom_L: pwm->analog
02:45 PM Joe_Hildreth: If anything, you all made me make a paradigm shift in my thinking about break out boards. HAHA
02:45 PM Joe_Hildreth: Thank you Tom, Andy and enleth
02:49 PM enleth: Joe_Hildreth: at the same time, all of us here probably immediately assumed that you're using one of those more complex BOBs, as they've become so cheap that they're considered the baseline and the one you have is actually below that
02:50 PM enleth: and you probably though "why are they telling me to identify the BOB if it's just a bit of PCB and connectors"
02:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: andypugh: are encoder rings for hall sensors only called reluctors when they are on an engine?
02:54 PM CaptHindsight[m]: when is a capacitor called a condenser?
02:55 PM andypugh: I don’t think that you use reluctors with hall sensors. I think you use them with magnets/coils, so you are measuring reluctance.
02:55 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or are these just USA thingies?
02:57 PM CaptHindsight[m]: toothed ferrous rings
02:58 PM andypugh: Which reminds me, before I got distracted by writing a patent application for a lock, I was working on support for missing-tooth index. That would make these useable with LinuxCNC for position + index: https://spareto.co.uk/products/febi-bilstein-ring-gear-crankshaft/36070
02:58 PM andypugh: (Those have a magnetic track, but it would also work for toothed gears, with one low tooth)
03:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: nice find
03:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: $12 car part
03:00 PM enleth: key set screw holes also work well for index detection and tend to crop up on at least one part on any given shaft
03:01 PM XXCoder: theres also screw hole at one place. interesting
03:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: converting an engine with a distributor to coil per cyclinder
03:04 PM enleth: the preload adjustment nut on some spindles is another nice place for a hall sensor, just drop a neodymium ball magnet into one of the adjustment wrench holes on the perimeter
03:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: interesting, googling for " Ring Gear, crankshaft" brings up many UK suppliers
03:11 PM CaptHindsight[m]: huh, aftermarket reluctor wheel add-ons sell for hundreds of $
03:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: guess you pay for being able to just bolt it on
03:13 PM roycroft: now that spam phone calls are becoming easier to block, i'm getting heaps of them
03:13 PM roycroft: i guess the spammers are doing what they do best as fast as they can before they're cut off
03:13 PM roycroft: i've received at least a dozen so far today
03:14 PM roycroft: all either extended warranty car spam or "visa/mastercard service" spam
03:14 PM roycroft: all with fake local caller id
03:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: are specs and dimensions for auto parts only well hidden in North America or is that a world wide thing?
03:14 PM roycroft: i'm not sure
03:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: been tempted to start a repo of open specs
03:15 PM Joe_Hildreth: enleth: You were correct on both counts. :-) HAHA
03:15 PM roycroft: the eu has a lot of regulations about cradle to grave handling of parts/materials, and a lot of regulations about standard interfaces for things, but the eu has always been disinclined to facilitate end-user repairs - europeans seem to think that fixing anything is best left to "professionals"
03:16 PM roycroft: so i could see the eu having specs obfuscated from the general public, but readily available to "qualified professionals"
03:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: USA equivalent of Andy's ring and missing tooth https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ado-12578661
03:21 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the auto manufacturers have written many of the laws about autos in the EU
03:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: right to not repair laws
03:23 PM enleth: roycroft: not sure where you'd get the "anything" in there
03:24 PM enleth: this is mostly about stuff that can kill bystanders or unaware future owners if the repair turns out to be shitty, which pretty much means cars and self-propelled heavy equipment
03:25 PM enleth: with cars being rather loosely regulated anyway, other than mandatory periodic inspection
03:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: enleth: how are things there with your neighbors in Belarus? Putting up a higher fence?
03:31 PM enleth: CaptHindsight[m]: people are getting the fuck out of there, taking whole families with them, many coming to Poland
03:31 PM enleth: but I don't think anyone considers the situation to be dangerous to neighboring conuntries
03:33 PM enleth: and other than the generic "immigrants taking our jobs" crap, there's sympathy for the refugees due to close cultural ties and recent memory of Poland itself being a Soviet satelite state
03:34 PM enleth: it's not US and Mexico, not even the right wing nuts are suggesting fences
03:34 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we could use a few more here to replace stupid old white men :)
03:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: come here and take all the <$15/hr jobs that nobody wants to put up with anymore
03:35 PM enleth: everyone's waiting for Lukashenka to kick the bucket one way or another, of course
03:36 PM enleth: and no one knows what the Putin's game really is, as it's obvious he's at least partially the one actually in control
03:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: what is expected to happen after he is gone?
03:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Putin's game is always create instability
03:37 PM enleth: hard to say, everything from a military coup to a full-on public uprising
03:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it works
03:37 PM enleth: maybe a peaceful transformation like in Poland
03:37 PM CaptHindsight[m]: see the Ukraine for example
03:38 PM enleth: maybe a public uprising *supported* by a military coup, like in Romania
03:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: don't invade and take over, just unstable enough to not join Nato
03:38 PM enleth: if they're lucky, it won't be after Lukashenka's death, it will *be* Lukashenka's death
03:38 PM enleth: see Romania, again
03:38 PM CaptHindsight[m]: a happier place now
03:41 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://twitter.com/cross_s_vision/status/1411966271566999555?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1411966271566999555%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsoranews24.com%2F2021%2F07%2F05%2Fgiant-cat-appears-on-new-3-d-billboard-outside-shinjuku-station-e38090videoe38091%2F
03:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I miss Tokyo
03:42 PM enleth: if you're not familliar with the story, it's one of the most impressive falls of a Soviet-aligned dictator ever: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C8%99escu#Overthrow
03:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: around when the trouble began in Yugoslavia
03:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: had some acquaintances from those parts back then, moved back years later when the dust settled
03:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: came here and over stayed Visas
03:47 PM enleth: the Balkans, unfortunately, never completely settled, there's stuff boiling under the lid over there
03:47 PM enleth: huge ethnic and cultural mismatches between people living in a relatively confined area
03:48 PM enleth: the place is one stupid local conflict away from going completely to shit again if the circumstances are just wrong enough
03:49 PM CaptHindsight[m]: well it got really stupid here for a while as well, still not really settled down
03:50 PM enleth: a friend spent a couple years over there working for occrp.org and helping investigative journalism
03:52 PM enleth: never really felt completely safe, ultimately had to leave just for the sake of his sanity
03:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: corruption, in former Soviet republics?! :)
03:53 PM enleth: and organized crime in an ex-warzone, who would have guessed
03:56 PM enleth: I remember him asking for advice on physical security of their office, one of the things he said was they needed a door that would hold out against a breaching team - long enough to call the police if it's a gang trying to get in, or to call a gang if it's the police trying to get in
03:56 PM enleth: *if* you can even tell the difference
03:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: was heading that way here, funny how many people here don't see it, like it only happens other places
03:58 PM enleth: where's "here"?
03:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: USA
04:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: like history was never taught and they never watch foreign news or world events
04:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: did Poland get many refugees from Syria?
04:03 PM enleth: not really
04:03 PM enleth: those who got this far north were headed for Scandinavia or Germany, better social services
04:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hope to visit Poland sometime in the next few years
04:05 PM enleth: we get Ukrainians and Belarusians due to proximity and cultural similarity, it's basically the closest place in a westward direction for them that's no longer a shithole
04:05 PM enleth: and a lot of Vietnamese, there's a huge diaspora and they're generally welcome here
04:06 PM CaptHindsight[m]: thats interesting
04:06 PM enleth: as unlikely as this might seem, there's a historical reason
04:06 PM enleth: it used to be that Vietnam was a "fellow communist country"
04:06 PM enleth: and Poland was the westernmost Soviet bloc outpost
04:07 PM CaptHindsight[m]: lower humidity
04:08 PM enleth: so a lot of Vietnamese came here for business (as in, official state business, as private business was much less of a thing for them than was typical in most communist countries)
04:08 PM rs[m]: enleth: what about GDR
04:09 PM enleth: rs[m]: right, the westernmost one that is still a somewhat independent state
04:09 PM rs[m]: IIRC there were many vietnamese in eastern germany too
04:10 PM enleth: GDR was through and through a puppet of Russia for strategic military reasons
04:10 PM enleth: Poland was a good proxy state for business dealings that needed to be done with the West
04:10 PM rs[m]: also CSSR extended a bit more to the west than poland ;)
04:11 PM enleth: Polish people were free to move all over the Soviet bloc *and* to the outside countries much more than most other Soviet or practically-Soviet citizens
04:11 PM enleth: not completely free, but this was an unusual degree of freedom and leniency
04:12 PM enleth: which made it a good place to do cross-Iron Curtain business
04:12 PM enleth: even for other communist states
04:13 PM enleth: there were deals being done officially by Polish state-owned companies, that were proxied for countries like Vietnam
04:13 PM enleth: many Vietnamese were also sent here on student exchanges to gain familliarity with the Western world
04:13 PM enleth: close enough to see it, restricted enough so they don't run for it
04:13 PM rs[m]: there were many yugoslavian citizens in austria, but don't recall how that worked. and of course yugoslavia was kind of a pariah communist state
04:14 PM enleth: anyway, when the communism fell here, suddenly there was a newly democratic western country where a lot of Vietnamese people already leave, and where locals are sympathetic towards refugees fleeing the communism
04:15 PM enleth: so even though there's very little cultural commonality, the Vietnamese are still perceived as sort of "brothers in plight" as Vietnam is still a communist state
04:16 PM enleth: *already live, duh
04:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the new CCCP seems to be working well for now (contemporary capitalist communist party)
04:18 PM enleth: it helps that they are generally hard-working people who take pride in supporting themselves and their families, so they don't burden the social aid system
04:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yeah they just want out
04:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: they don't want to be leaches on society
04:19 PM enleth: somehow decades of communism failed to remove the asian attitude to work from the Vietnamese
04:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: just a fair chance
04:19 PM enleth: the moment they come here, they're delighted it's so easy to do business here
04:20 PM CaptHindsight[m]: like Mexicans and Central Americans here
04:20 PM enleth: (hint: Polish people consider our authorities to be overtly hostile towards small businesses - think how bad it must be over there in Vietnam for them to like it here)
04:21 PM enleth: and it helps greatly that their children are assimilating culturally
04:21 PM enleth: some cultures form very closed diasporas, people keeping to themselves for generations
04:21 PM enleth: Turks in Germany are one big sad example
04:22 PM enleth: but young Vietnamese people born in Poland are culturally pretty much locals
04:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: with Turks it's likely due to religion
04:22 PM CaptHindsight[m]: too strong a curse
04:22 PM enleth: and they're considered as such by their ethnically local peers
04:23 PM enleth: this might really be the one most important factor
04:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ethnically diverse Muslim society
04:24 PM CaptHindsight[m]: does it exist?
04:25 PM enleth: technically speaking, there's a huge ethnic diversity among practitioners of Islam worldwide, it's far from just the Arabs
04:25 PM CaptHindsight[m]: separated by borders :)
04:26 PM enleth: the catch is, they're trying to kill each other over interpretations even within a single ethnic group
04:26 PM CaptHindsight[m]: yeah
04:27 PM XXCoder: most of islam followers dont do that killing thing
04:27 PM CaptHindsight[m]: interesting how much I was exposed to growing up in the US with parents from abroad, didn't appreciate it at the time but looking back it was quite an education
04:28 PM XXCoder: we hear only when violence happens, not "wow no violence today!"
04:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: mix of Hitler, Stalin, Mohamed, Jesus, etc etc
04:29 PM roycroft: there has been over 200 mass shootings in the us so far this year - more than one per day
04:29 PM rs[m]: christianity did similar things
04:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: I was just thinking about who we invade next
04:29 PM roycroft: so i don't know when we can say "wow no violence today"
04:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: might have been thinking foreign wars vs internal conflicts
04:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: we are still investigating Jan 6
04:30 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Tourist Day :)
04:30 PM rs[m]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years%27_War
04:30 PM XXCoder: yeah hope many who went there get years of jail time
04:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: compare US history for the past 10 years to events in Eastern Europe for the past 100
04:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: how do you not see the parallels?
04:33 PM CaptHindsight[m]: maybe we'll be in the South China Sea more often
04:33 PM CaptHindsight[m]: taiwan
04:35 PM CaptHindsight[m]: XXCoder: and roycroft did they turn your oven off yet?
04:36 PM XXCoder: ?
04:36 PM CaptHindsight[m]: heat wave
04:38 PM Tom_L: heat waves back
04:38 PM roycroft: it's down to the 20s now
04:38 PM XXCoder: 69f here
04:38 PM roycroft: the heat wave ended last week
04:38 PM XXCoder: so many died last weekend but it cooled down now
04:38 PM roycroft: and we're having fairly seasonable temperatures now
04:39 PM roycroft: but the hot season hasn't begun yet
04:39 PM CaptHindsight[m]: cold front moving through here now, 20 deg drop since noon
04:39 PM roycroft: i don't know if we'll hit 40 again this summer, but we well could
04:40 PM XXCoder: hope not but probably
04:42 PM CaptHindsight[m]: has weather in the EU been pretty mild this summer?
04:52 PM roycroft: folks don't generally realise this, but we get small tornados almost every year a bit to the south and west of portland
04:52 PM CaptHindsight[m]: The hail storm in Italy made the world news
04:53 PM CaptHindsight[m]: was a meter deep in spots from the pics
04:56 PM rs[m]: the tornado flattened a village
04:57 PM rs[m]: hailstorms near me damaged hundreds of houses, situation is bad, not enough roof tiles available
04:58 PM rs[m]: it seems a number of people will have to wait till next year, i.e. manage a winter with a damaged roof
04:59 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I had neighbors that went a few years with a plastic tarp as a patch
05:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: in fact I drove by the old place a year or so ago and it's been there for >15 years
05:00 PM rs[m]: thats not really possible around here, some winters we get lots of snow
05:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: so do we
05:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sloped roof
05:00 PM CaptHindsight[m]: ~45 deg
05:01 PM enleth: add more energy to a complex system, wonder why the results of stuff literally moving faster and with more force are violent
05:01 PM rs[m]: 45deg seems very steep for a roof
05:02 PM rs[m]: i have seen temporary repairs being done with polyurethane foam
05:03 PM enleth: rs[m]: 45deg is not unusual in regions with even occasional heavy snowfall, especially on old buildings
05:03 PM enleth: super smooth industrially produced tiles are a recent invention
05:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gable_roof
05:03 PM enleth: the more rough the roof is, the steeper it needs to be to be self-clearing
05:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: barking
05:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: rough roof, ok dad jokes are over
05:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: back to work
05:04 PM rs[m]: i would say typical in here would be between 30 and 40 degrees
05:05 PM enleth: unless the thing is designed to *retain* snow for insulation
05:06 PM rs[m]: or to avoid roof avalanches
05:08 PM rs[m]: building code requires roofs to sustain between 84 and 1080kg of snow per m² depending on zone
05:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: around here it's falling icicles
05:08 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roofs are strong, it's the gutters that stop working
05:09 PM XXCoder: i'd add solar panel to heat gutters and roof edges to above 32f
05:09 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://blockclubchicago.org/2021/02/19/huge-icicles-heavy-snow-or-ice-dams-on-your-roof-heres-what-experts-say-you-should-do/
05:09 PM rs[m]: we have a kind of "retainer" on roofs, looks like a ladder
05:09 PM XXCoder: dont have to be far above, just enough to stop gutter freeze
05:10 PM rs[m]: you need to keep the solar panel free of snow
05:11 PM XXCoder: well yeah thats a given
05:11 PM rs[m]: reflectivity of snow is very high, esp. if it is "fresh" snow
05:12 PM XXCoder: yep and light very highly scattered
05:12 PM XXCoder: on very sunny and snow bound area, you prically can point solar downwards and get plenty of power anyway
05:12 PM XXCoder: though less than direct from sun of course
05:13 PM rs[m]: its enough for severe sunburns
05:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: enleth: are there lots of leftover Soviet era machine tools there?
05:13 PM XXCoder: if you design panels right, you could also heat it above 32f using resistors. self powered.
05:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I heard that there were lots in Czechoslovakia
05:13 PM enleth: CaptHindsight[m]: yes, but they're mostly useless for hobby machinists
05:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: too big?
05:14 PM enleth: CaptHindsight[m]: a centrally planned heavy industry only made machine tools useful for a centrally planned heavy industry
05:14 PM rs[m]: big heavy chunks of cast iron, probably alloyed with uranium or other nasty stuff ;)
05:14 PM CaptHindsight[m]: understood comrade
05:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: so not easily stolen
05:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and easy to trace with Geiger counter
05:15 PM enleth: in the UK and USA, many companies made small model engineering or homestead lathes
05:15 PM enleth: nothing of the sort here
05:16 PM enleth: it's all aircraft carrier anchors
05:16 PM roycroft: we have a perpetual candidate for congress in my district who believes that nuclear waste should be imbedded in the foundations of houses, as the "radioactive glow" enhances health
05:16 PM roycroft: embedded, rather
05:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: explains the lack of precision in the former era
05:16 PM roycroft: the former soviet states would welcome him as a leader in science, i should think :)
05:16 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roycroft: keeps the immune system on it's toes
05:16 PM roycroft: he is a scientist by trade
05:17 PM enleth: I mean, if someone needed a small precise machine, they could get it one way or another, but few were made and fewer survived to show up on the used market now
05:17 PM roycroft: and he runs as a republican
05:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: DNA broken, no problem
05:17 PM Tom_L: how does he walk?
05:17 PM roycroft: i was about to say "republican, not one of those fringe kook parties", but i realised that i'm no longer sure that republicans are't just a fringe kook party now
05:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: no longer fringe
05:18 PM enleth: the Russians *did* have a successful space program, they could and did do precision engineering just fine, same with satelite states
05:18 PM roycroft: this candidate also sends me postcards on a regular basis asking me if i'd submit samples of my pee for his research
05:18 PM enleth: but the private market for small precise machine tools was nonexistent
05:18 PM CaptHindsight[m]: roycroft: might just be his hobby
05:18 PM roycroft: the soviets could always make precision tools/parts
05:18 PM roycroft: as can the chinese
05:19 PM roycroft: it's not a matter of ability
05:19 PM roycroft: it's a matter of economics
05:19 PM Tom_L: it was howard hughe's
05:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: I'm pretty sure the Chinese Mars rover is built from purchased parts on Alibaba
05:20 PM Tom_L: stuff that wouldn't sell?
05:20 PM roycroft: even parts on alibaba vary
05:20 PM roycroft: the chinese are not stupid
05:20 PM enleth: the end result is that my mill is a UK-built Bridgeport, the lathe is a Belgian Mondiale Celtic, the surface grinder is West German as is the hardness tester, and the biggest domestic machine tool I own is a large bench grinder
05:20 PM roycroft: if you want a high quality part and are willing to pay for it they will make you a high quality part
05:21 PM roycroft: if you want a part for as little money as possible and will settle for inferior quality they will make it just well enough to not have to refund your money
05:21 PM Tom_L: and keep the design?
05:21 PM rs[m]: i met a former GDR university professor (geology / mining or something like that) while travelling
05:21 PM rs[m]: he told me a story when he was allowed to visit a university in the west
05:21 PM JT-MachineShop: and Bambi is outside the machine shop door having her evening meal
05:22 PM rs[m]: they went into a shop something like home depot
05:22 PM Tom_L: wow JT grew a name
05:22 PM XXCoder: interesting https://youtu.be/l4gGWufoIYI
05:22 PM JT-MachineShop: wow
05:22 PM rs[m]: and they had taps! for everybody to buy!
05:22 PM JT-MachineShop: where did that come from
05:22 PM XXCoder: home injectoon machine
05:22 PM rs[m]: even left handed ones
05:22 PM JT-MachineShop: for tap dancing?
05:22 PM roycroft: maybe he grew a shop and now has to distinguish between them
05:22 PM rs[m]: he was moved to tears..
05:28 PM JT-MachineShop is now known as jthornton
05:28 PM jthornton: hmm they took away my blue dot
05:28 PM roycroft: and now he's just chillin' on the patio
05:28 PM jthornton is now known as JT-Shop
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: rs[m]: we used to have lots more hardware places, like Germany still does
05:28 PM roycroft: and now back to wokr
05:28 PM roycroft: work
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: or China has now
05:28 PM enleth: CaptHindsight[m]: anyway, if you ever decide to show up in the area, make sure to ping me
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: sad that i can find parts faster in China now than in the USA
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: will do
05:28 PM rs[m]: in GDR is was impossible even for universities to obtain things like a tap for standard threads
05:28 PM rs[m]: nearly
05:28 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, which one is registered?
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: have to work on the vocabulary first, only recall how to say hello and call somebody Stupid
05:28 PM Tom_L: if you're not signed in...
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: so good styart :)
05:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: start even
05:28 PM Tom_L: freenode did that automagically
05:28 PM Tom_L: this net doesn't
05:28 PM JT-Shop: jthornton
05:28 PM JT-Shop: I think hexchat signs me in when I load it
05:29 PM Tom_L: jt moved to the head of the class!
05:29 PM JT-Shop: yep I don't know why it was not set correctly
05:29 PM Tom_L: mine wasn't either
05:30 PM * JT-Shop wanders out to play with some oak
05:43 PM rs[m]: this is funny in a way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkGdJMVJ1Fc
05:44 PM rs[m]: 1) design machine 2) get parts 3) assemble. easy.
05:46 PM Tom_L: kinda what i did on a budget
05:48 PM XXCoder: ohhh casting rocks?
05:48 PM XXCoder: or epoxy grinate
05:48 PM Tom_L: latter
05:48 PM Tom_L: he's obviously got more space, time and money that me
05:48 PM XXCoder: indeed
05:49 PM Tom_L: my goal was to exceed a sherline capability and i succeeded with that by leaps and bounds
05:49 PM XXCoder: nice how tight tol can you mill
05:50 PM Tom_L: i haven't really machined anything i had to worry much with that but it's pretty close
05:50 PM XXCoder: really, is sgerline that crappy
05:51 PM Tom_L: the spindle needs trammed again and shows a bit when i run a fly cutter
05:51 PM Tom_L: not too bad but it shows
05:51 PM Tom_L: it's aluminum.
05:51 PM Tom_L: and uses a .250 x 20 lead acrew
05:51 PM XXCoder: ah theyre a company it seems
05:52 PM XXCoder: no wonder they have time and money
05:52 PM Tom_L: been there for years
05:52 PM Tom_L: i've had mine a good 25-30
05:52 PM Tom_L: i kept the spindle because i had so much tooling already
05:52 PM Tom_L: it seems to be holding up fine
05:52 PM Tom_L: the only drawback is no atc
05:52 PM XXCoder: that channel is brand new it seems
05:53 PM XXCoder: first video is 3 weeks ago.
06:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bnqFwAf7HM US vs German Pliers
06:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: i wanna see vs China, UK, Australia, etc
06:04 PM XXCoder: lol guy is barefoot in video https://youtu.be/uYDA-01Yfow?t=119
06:04 PM XXCoder: think its not in his shop however
06:05 PM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYIdr_7H5Yw
06:05 PM Tom_L: random
06:25 PM veegee: Thoughts on this tool and cutter grinder? https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1573729839
06:25 PM veegee: I'm going to check it out this weekend
06:25 PM veegee: Tool and cutter grinders are not so easy to come by. Not as common as mills and lathes and such
06:26 PM veegee: This one looks like it's in good condition
06:31 PM veegee: CaptHindsight[m] I like his channel, but some of his experiments are poorly designed.
06:31 PM veegee: Pliers aren't complicated. Use the right steels, heat treat properly, and you're done
06:36 PM roycroft: one of my rules of thumb is to immediately stop reading an article or watching a video when i read or hear the words "the best way to ..."
06:36 PM roycroft: "this works best for me ..." is ok
06:37 PM roycroft: "this is what i do and it works well for me ..." is even better
06:37 PM XXCoder: i just add "... for me" to it
06:37 PM XXCoder: dont really worry about if its best or not
06:37 PM roycroft: there's usually more than one "best way" to do something
06:37 PM XXCoder: yeah
06:38 PM roycroft: i need an m12x2.0 left hand bottom tap
06:38 PM Tom_L: old tools were designed to last longer than new tools hands down
06:38 PM roycroft: this could be an interesting voyage, trying to find one
06:39 PM veegee: roycroft make one on your lathe
06:39 PM roycroft: i would substitute "generally" for "hands down"
06:39 PM roycroft: veegee: i think it should be pretty clear that i no longer wish to engage with you, so kindly go intercourse yourself and leave me alone, thank you very much
06:40 PM veegee: nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnno!
06:40 PM veegee: I _will_ find you
06:40 PM veegee: and I _will_
06:40 PM veegee: hug you
06:41 PM Tom_L: is the 2 pitch uncommon?
06:41 PM roycroft: it is fairly uncommon - it's extra coarse
06:41 PM roycroft: and it's left hand thread
06:41 PM roycroft: and a bottom tap
06:42 PM roycroft: although i could always grind a taper or plug tap down, if i only found one of those
06:42 PM veegee: Your lathe can do 2mm
06:42 PM Tom_L: a thread mill would do it
06:42 PM * roycroft suggests that someone enforce the channel rules
06:42 PM veegee: M14 and M16 are 2mm
06:43 PM roycroft: a brand new spindle for this machine is <$60
06:43 PM roycroft: it might be easier to replace the spindle than to repair the current one
06:43 PM veegee: D: did not know that. I was looking into replacing just the spindle nose on mine
06:43 PM roycroft: but i prefer to repair, when possible, rather than replace
06:43 PM veegee: $60 is a fine price for a spindle
06:44 PM Tom_L: you certain it's 2 and not 1.75?
06:44 PM veegee: roycroft https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3rINJWcmbA
06:45 PM veegee: I made one in a similar way, worked very well
06:45 PM roycroft: yes, i am certain
06:45 PM roycroft: i measured with a thread gage
06:45 PM roycroft: and 2.0mm meshes perfectly
06:46 PM Tom_L: k, i would put that in the 'special' tap category
06:46 PM roycroft: yes
06:46 PM roycroft: this is an oscillating spindle sander
06:46 PM roycroft: the sanding spindle screws into the main spindle
06:46 PM roycroft: and there's a registration collar on the spindle for alignment
06:46 PM roycroft: it's intended to be able to be installed quickly
06:47 PM roycroft: hence the extra coarse thread
06:47 PM roycroft: a "bobbin sander" for you folks on the other side of the pond and down under
06:48 PM skunkworks: Tom_L: the log seems to be down
06:49 PM skunkworks: oh - maybe not
06:49 PM skunkworks: Hmm
06:49 PM veegee: What are 14" grinding wheels with a 5" bore used for?
06:49 PM veegee: I don't think I've ever seen a bench/pedestal grinder with a 5" spindle
06:49 PM roycroft: my observation, from the little time i've spent monitoring the channel today, is that it's been a slow day
06:50 PM veegee: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1561780701 $20 each
06:52 PM Tom_L: :)
06:53 PM Tom_L: i may need to reset the router
06:53 PM skunkworks: no - I wonder if dad had the wrong link
06:53 PM Tom_L: it was down earlier
06:54 PM Tom_L: and you've been rather quiet lately
06:54 PM Tom_L: no new projects under the hat?
06:55 PM skunkworks: Not really.. life mostly.
06:56 PM veegee: skunkworks who's your dad on here?
06:56 PM skunkworks: work and family has been the priority..
06:56 PM skunkworks: veegee: no.. He just reads the logs..
06:56 PM veegee: oh lol!
06:56 PM skunkworks: Hi Dad!
06:56 PM Tom_L: :)
06:56 PM veegee: Hi Dad!!!!
07:04 PM veegee: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1566989981 Cincinnati cutter grinder for half the price of the other one
07:04 PM veegee: I am definitely going to be visiting him this weekend
07:05 PM veegee: That costs as much as a new small D bit grinder
07:41 PM veegee: andypugh what would you recommend for a chuck back plate: 1018 or 1045? The cross section of the 1045 shouldn't be more than 1" or so, so it should respond to heat treating for strength. Also, I think it has a better surface finish than 1018
07:42 PM veegee: Going to heat treat it and aim for good ductility and strength. It's going to mount on a D1-4 spindle nose which has a relatively short taper
07:46 PM andypugh: I would tend to use EN24 as I have lots. I don’t really understand the US steel names. In fact I don’t understand the UK ones, EN-numbers went out of officlal use in the 1970s, but are still widely used. I “caught” them from my dad. EN24 is really 817M40. Looks like that would be 4340 in your numbers?
07:46 PM andypugh: https://www.hillfoot.com/products/817m40-15-nickel-chromium-molybdenum-through-hardening-steel
07:48 PM andypugh: But that is massively over the top for a backplate. I just use if for everything as I know that it will never break, and it machines to a good finish.
07:49 PM andypugh: veegee: Recent disappointing ebay sale: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114859039298
07:50 PM veegee: andypugh 4340 is chrome nickel moly
07:50 PM veegee: andypugh 1045 is plain carbon steel 0.45% carbon
07:50 PM andypugh: veegee: For the D1-4 _nose_ on my rotary table I used EN24 and then had it nitrided. (part of the reason I like EN24, it nitrides well)
07:51 PM andypugh: Yes, as I said, I use over-specified steel just to be sure, as the material cost is irrelevant to my hobby.
07:53 PM veegee: Yeah the pricing from my supplier is surprisingly good so I'm leaning towards higher carbon steel
07:54 PM veegee: But 1018 cold rolled has a higher yield strength by default over 1045 annealed, so there's that to think about as well, which is why I'm buying both
07:54 PM veegee: andypugh The numbers are SAE steel grades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_steel_grades
07:55 PM veegee: I've been reading a lot and apparently there are things to be aware of with chrome moly steels like requiring more precise control of heat treat temperature and avoiding certain temperature ranges whereas 1045 doesn't care
07:55 PM veegee: But 4140, and 4340 much more so apparently respond to through-hardening much better than 1045
07:59 PM veegee: andypugh regarding the ebay sale, why is it disappointing?
07:59 PM Tom_L: no sale aparently
08:00 PM veegee: It shows as bidding ended
08:01 PM Tom_L: dunno
08:01 PM veegee: oh damn, he has 1163 stars
08:01 PM veegee: Going to follow you andypugh
08:02 PM veegee: The postage to Canada is as much as the item itself :(
08:06 PM andypugh: The disappointment was a £36 casting, and £10 in other materials, plus a full day of work, selling for £53.
08:06 PM veegee: Ah
08:06 PM veegee: Isn't that quite expensive for a casting?
08:06 PM andypugh: That’s rather cheap for a casting, as a few-off.
08:06 PM veegee: I'm getting a quote for a 12" section of 6" diameter 1045 for $150 (~75 GBP)
08:10 PM veegee: which is _a lot_ of metal
08:12 PM andypugh: It is, that sounds like quite a good price. Here is looks like 12” of 6” in EN3 or EN8 would be £215
08:48 PM roycroft: well i can't find that tap anywhere, so i may need to just buy a new spindle if i can't clean up the threads on this one decently
08:48 PM XXCoder: cant make adoptor or anything?
08:49 PM roycroft: i need to fix the spindle
08:49 PM roycroft: it's an inside thread
08:49 PM XXCoder: to reuse your old tools with new spindle
08:49 PM roycroft: and it's pretty deep
08:49 PM roycroft: oh, if i buy a new spindle it's oem
08:49 PM roycroft: no adapters would be needed - just swap out the old for the new and bob's my uncle
08:49 PM XXCoder: nice
08:49 PM XXCoder: i guess alternate is use thread mill
08:49 PM XXCoder: if you had another machine lol
08:50 PM roycroft: the issue is this
08:50 PM XXCoder: andy did it
08:50 PM roycroft: it's an m12 inside thread
08:50 PM XXCoder: (well external thread but yeah)
08:50 PM roycroft: and it's really deep - i have to go down about 25mm just to get to the threaded bit
08:50 PM roycroft: and there's only about 8mm of threads
08:50 PM XXCoder: geez not easy at all
08:51 PM roycroft: it would be pretty hard to mount in the lathe and clean up with a single point tool
08:51 PM Tom_L: it is possible but not easy
08:51 PM XXCoder: yeah
08:51 PM Tom_L: turn by hand
08:52 PM XXCoder: understatement
08:52 PM XXCoder: make your own tap tool?
08:52 PM XXCoder: make reverse bolt then cut flutes
08:53 PM roycroft: there's a tube of copper anti-seize in the drawer of the sander cabinet now
08:53 PM XXCoder: if you have a lathe
08:53 PM roycroft: as i said earlier, i've had this machine for 20ish years, without a problem
08:53 PM roycroft: but when there's a problem it's a big problem
08:54 PM roycroft: i can hardly even find an m12-2.0 right hand tap
08:54 PM roycroft: for left hand i've come up completely empty
08:55 PM roycroft: that's a really really coarse thread pitch
08:55 PM roycroft: it's like 1/2"-8tpi
08:56 PM Tom_L: nice of them to be so thoughtful
08:56 PM roycroft: i guess more like 1/2"-10tpi
08:57 PM roycroft: well as i said earlier, i understand why they did it
08:57 PM roycroft: those sanding spindles get swapped in and out frequently
08:57 PM roycroft: i'll sometimes change spindles a half dozen times or more on a single part
08:58 PM roycroft: so rapid insertion/removal is important
08:58 PM roycroft: and left hand thread is a requirement so it doesn't spin off while the machine is running
08:59 PM Tom_L: it could have been a more common thread though
09:04 PM roycroft: i suppose they could have used a larger spindle diameter to get the coarse thread pitch that's more standard
09:04 PM roycroft: but it's still left hand
09:05 PM roycroft: so it's always going to be an oddball
09:06 PM roycroft: m14-2.0 is a standard pitch
09:06 PM roycroft: and yeah, that's a pretty easy tap to find, even in lht
09:07 PM roycroft: but using a standard pitch thread would negatively impact the bottom line of their spares/repairs department
09:10 PM roycroft: odd
09:11 PM roycroft: i ordered some litter box liners on amazon, because the local pet store no longer carries the size that fits my cat's litter box
09:12 PM roycroft: that's fine, but amazon just sent me an email saying that by purchasing these litter box liners (which cost $6.95) i am entitled to six months of unlimited access to their mp3 library, which they claim has over 750,000 songs
09:12 PM roycroft: i fail to see any correlation between the item i purchased and the "reward" for making the purchase
09:13 PM * roycroft suspects this is the first step on the slippery slope to amazon prime, and will not put his foot forward
11:02 PM enleth: roycroft: a large single-ish use tap is not that hard to make
11:02 PM veegee: roycroft it's worth it
11:02 PM veegee: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B07HDSMVT9 this is a gem
11:03 PM veegee: $22 and apart from the dovetail clamp being junk, it's incredibly smooth
11:03 PM veegee: very little play out of the box, none after adjustment
11:03 PM enleth: large means it won't break easily even if it struggles to cut, single use doesn't care about cutting edge wear
11:04 PM veegee: roycroft why do you need litter box liners?
11:04 PM veegee: a stainless steel scoop works perfectly fine for me
11:05 PM veegee: maybe you're not using good litter
11:07 PM roycroft: all i need to do is some thread chasing, enleth
11:08 PM roycroft: i'm not cutting new threads
11:08 PM roycroft: just cleaning some up
11:08 PM veegee: roycroft did you know this existed? https://www.amazon.ca/Karcher-17663610-Twin-Sweeper-Yellow/dp/B08M4D1K8F/
11:09 PM veegee: I didn't until just now
11:22 PM burklefoo: Speaking of litter boxes, our last remaining rabbit is getting really old (blind and arthritic). I wanted a another rabbit but my wife put her foot down and said no more rabbits... Saturday a domestic rabbit wandered into our yard. I caught it and we put up notices and pictures but no takers so far. Its still named "Guest"...
11:23 PM veegee: burklefoo just to clarify, she didn't put her foot down _on_ the rabbit, right?
11:25 PM burklefoo: no, she might do it to an appendage of mine however
11:27 PM burklefoo: People dump rabbits all the time when they find out that they are not low maintenance pets
11:29 PM burklefoo: at least 5 of the rabbits we've had over the years were ones we found on walks in the neighborhood
11:56 PM veegee: burklefoo I have a kitty cat
11:56 PM veegee: I also just got four pet rats and one pet mouse
11:57 PM veegee: They're so adorable. They all cuddle together and sleep
11:57 PM veegee: And I've accomplished the very difficult task of making the rats friends with the mouse
11:57 PM veegee: Rats almost always attack and kill mice and eat them
11:58 PM veegee: These rats are still young though. The mouse was super nervous at the beginning but right now they're all cuddled together in a blob and sleeping peacefully