#linuxcnc Logs

Jun 24 2021

01:12 AM enleth: veegee: it would certainly be quite easy to use passive hydraulics to couple one of the idling axes to the winch, in a way that would be easily switchable
01:22 AM Deejay: moin
04:11 AM Tom_L: XXCoder, the phone camera doesn't like the new led lights
04:11 AM Tom_L: morning
04:11 AM XXCoder: ahh hz interaction
04:12 AM Tom_L: if i angle it just right it quits
04:20 AM Tom_L: i might try moving the light and redo it... see what happens
04:21 AM Tom_L: cloudy, windy & 100F
04:23 AM XXCoder: ow
04:23 AM XXCoder: this weekend will be hot here too :(
04:23 AM XXCoder: 106f monday
04:23 AM XXCoder: you realize its quite rare to go over 90f. 106f is... insane
04:26 AM XXCoder: according to google, 98f sat, 104f sun, monday 105f
05:12 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:18 AM XXCoder: yo
06:14 AM JT-Cave: lumber price is 50% lower but a 2x12x16 #1 SYP is still $100
06:14 AM XXCoder: sigh in least its slowly recove3ring
06:15 AM JT-Cave: I take that back it's $110
06:15 AM XXCoder: that is, if wood dont just set itself on fire this weekend. damn hot
08:49 AM JT-Shop: Tom_L, https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/wr58bCXmGj/
10:08 AM Joe_Hildreth: SO I compiled preempt-rt kernel version 5.10.41 on Ubunru 20.04. When I try to load the kernel I get the following error, "kernel does not support efi handover". I have not experienced that error in the past. I am guessing I need to add somethign to the menuconfig about EFI but I can't seem to find it. Can anyone suggest where I can fix it?
10:43 AM CaptHindsight[m]: Joe_Hildreth: likely left some EFI support out of Kconfig or your EFI is broken, boot in legacy BIOS mode or change your kernel config when compiling
10:44 AM CaptHindsight[m]: or use a working kernel binary
10:50 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:54 AM Joe_Hildreth: CaptHindsight[m]: I thought I would just add it to the kernel config when compiling, but I cannot seem to find it in menuconfig. Do you know where it is located?
11:01 AM Joe_Hildreth: I found it in the menuconfig, re-compiling now....
11:05 AM Tom_L: JT-Shop, any reply?
11:07 AM Tom_L: i can tell the aircraft industry is in a slump. not near as many cutoffs at the surplus yard to pick from :(
12:26 PM jepler: Hi all. Just so you're aware, the LinuxCNC community including IRC now has a written code of conduct. Unless it's your idea of fun to harass other people, this is a big non-event for you. You can read the code of conduct here: http://www.linuxcnc.org/CODE_OF_CONDUCT/
12:30 PM _methods: it's about time someone held JT-Cave accountable
12:33 PM Vq: Some people just ruin it for everyone...
12:34 PM * _methods points at JT-Cave
12:34 PM _methods: i don't know what he's done this time but i'm sure it's bad
12:34 PM Vq: Hi ve7it, welcome to #linuxcnc
12:40 PM Vq: Hi tiwake, welcome to #linuxcnc
12:51 PM roguish[m]: jepler: thanks a bizzion.
12:53 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L, not sent yet... pondering
01:30 PM aaron_ is now known as aaroncnc
01:31 PM aaroncnc: what up with the new "LinuxCNC Community Code of Conduct"
01:36 PM Rab: Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include: Excessive or unwelcome helping; answering outside the scope of the question asked
01:38 PM Rab: Example scenarios would be interesting...I guess it's something like "What are you really trying to do, so I can critique that instead".
01:45 PM Tom_L: aaroncnc, better behave yourself
01:47 PM Tom_L: new sheriff in town...
01:50 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, i didn't see anything wrong with it
01:53 PM CloudEvil: Sane enforcement wouldn't catch XY problems hopefully.
01:58 PM Tom_L: Rab, does that mean we can't say 'don't ask to ask, just ask'?
01:58 PM _methods: can i help you reword that sentence Tom_L
01:58 PM _methods: maybe i can help you fold your laundry?
01:59 PM Tom_L: let's not answer beyond bounds..
01:59 PM _methods: heheheh
01:59 PM Tom_L: the intent is good
01:59 PM Tom_L: it does get a bit out there at times
02:02 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L, thanks for looking at it
02:03 PM Tom_L: just hope it works out
02:06 PM aaroncnc: that did not take long for someone to not like the new rules...
02:07 PM roycroft: it will be intersting to see how evenly they're enforced
02:08 PM roycroft: just discussing them is off-topic, so we're all in violation already
02:08 PM Tom_L: especially you!
02:08 PM JT-Shop: looks like JVL is sending me a new circuit board for the drum sander
02:08 PM Tom_L: you blow it up?
02:08 PM roycroft: nice
02:08 PM JT-Shop: I'm sure glad the tech support is in the US
02:08 PM JT-Shop: no, just stopped working
02:08 PM roycroft: i'm still trying to carve out time to work on my mill/drill this week
02:09 PM Rab: roycroft, where do you see that?
02:09 PM roycroft: but i may feel compelled to go on a hike tomorrow
02:09 PM Tom_L: @97F i'm not compelled to do much of anything
02:10 PM Tom_L: might run thru those parts later on
02:25 PM Joe_Hildreth: As I understand it ACPI should be disabled when compiling a preempt-rt kernel, and it looks like EFI requires ACPI. So should I assume that a computer running preempt-rt should not boot from UEIF? Should it only legacy BIOS boot?
02:28 PM JT-Shop: nice when I run out of labels for my Kroy label printer I can throw it out... they are no longer in business
02:40 PM skunkworks: hmm I am pretty sure I have booted the linuxcnc livecd uefi.. I think
02:45 PM CaptHindsight[m] is now known as DisplayName[m]
02:47 PM DisplayName[m]: Joe_Hildreth: have you tried using the config that Andy used for the releases?
02:49 PM Joe_Hildreth: You men the kernel config from the debian 10 release?
02:50 PM DisplayName[m]: is debian 10 Buster? I lose track of the version names vs the numbers
02:50 PM DisplayName[m]: http://linuxcnc.org/2020/12/02/LinuxCNC-2.8.1/
02:51 PM DisplayName[m]: getting the right configs for a kernel takes some experience
02:52 PM DisplayName[m]: same with debugging kernel issues
02:53 PM DisplayName[m]: ah yes http://linuxcnc.org/downloads/ LinuxCNC 2.8.0 Debian 10 Buster
02:56 PM DisplayName[m] is now known as CaptHindsight[m]
02:57 PM veegee: https://accusizetools.com/products/5c-lathe-chucks-3-jaw-self-centering-scroll?variant=35245863665818
02:57 PM veegee: This looks like it'll be really useful
02:57 PM veegee: Don't have to take the 5C collet chuck off
02:58 PM CaptHindsight[m]: beware of low cost tools and their tolerances
02:59 PM veegee: CaptHindsight[m] yeah. In this case, it's just to hold the bar stock initially so I can turn the correct diameter for a 5C collet. Then I'd use an actual 5C collet
02:59 PM veegee: This just eliminates the need to remove the 5C collet chuck
03:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: read some long threads about measuring piston bore clearances
03:01 PM veegee: Alternatively: https://accusizetools.com/collections/collet-set-chucks/products/5c-shank-er40-chuck-with-15-pc-collet-set-1-8-1-by-16th-0223-0302
03:01 PM veegee: I can just get the 5C shank ER40 holder
03:01 PM CaptHindsight[m]: two camps, one thinks that the spec is for the difference between the ID of the boare and the OD of the psiton
03:02 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the other thinks that it is the difference x2, they think it means the clearance or difference on both sides
03:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: * two camps, one thinks that the spec is for the difference between the ID of the bore and the OD of the piston
03:05 PM Joe_Hildreth: DisplayName[m]: I will give that a try. Thanks
03:11 PM roycroft: maybe you should just order lathes in bulk, veegee, and leave a different type/size chuck in each one
03:11 PM roycroft: that way you never have to change them out
03:11 PM veegee: Ok you make a good point
03:11 PM veegee: I'm just worried about "wearing" the spindle nose
03:12 PM veegee: or dinging up the area around the cam holes and causing it to not seat properly
03:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: then you have to make sure all the workholders are the same
03:12 PM roycroft: and if i'm honest, and i had the shop space and the cash, i'd like two lathes - one with a collet chuck pretty much permanently mounted, and the other with a 4 jaw most of the time, but where i would not mind swaping in a 6 or 3 jaw or a face plate upon occasion
03:12 PM CaptHindsight[m]: it's never easy
03:13 PM roycroft: i think that for a single person shop, 2 lathes is not unreasonable
03:13 PM veegee: I'd get a second lathe too. Need one big one and one small one
03:13 PM roycroft: more than two lathes may be getting bit carried away
03:13 PM veegee: a 16x40 and a >20 x 60 or 80
03:13 PM * roycroft is pondering downsizing his lathe
03:13 PM veegee: I'm so excited about picking up my new VMC next week
03:13 PM roycroft: i have a 12x36 now, but a 10x20 would probably do me fine
03:13 PM CaptHindsight[m]: lots of old turret lathes across the river from you veegee
03:14 PM roycroft: and give me back some precious real estate
03:14 PM roycroft: i just suffered a significant real estate loss
03:14 PM roycroft: i am building a new stand for my spindle sander, with room for my disc sander
03:14 PM roycroft: i actually just finished mounting the machines, and i'm very happy with how it's turning out
03:15 PM roycroft: the plan was to get rid of the old spindle sander stand, which is slightly smaller than the new one
03:15 PM CaptHindsight[m]: https://www.ebay.com/itm/353508564054 hah
03:15 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight[m], when you mic something do you x2 the value?
03:15 PM Tom_L: nuf said...
03:15 PM roycroft: but i had to haul out my bench mortiser to do this job, and realised that i don't use it often because it is such a pain to haul out and set up
03:15 PM roycroft: so now it's moving onto the old spindle sander stand, and i've lost significant real estate
03:17 PM CaptHindsight[m]: veegee: with tools https://www.ebay.com/itm/114829064899
03:17 PM veegee: CaptHindsight[m] I'd have no use for that
03:18 PM roycroft: they make really big banjos in kansas, do they?
03:19 PM CaptHindsight[m]: CNC T-Lathe, Siemens 810, 53" faceplate, 72" max swing, 8" Z axis, 90rpm
03:19 PM hexagon5un: holy crap. when that dude says "with tooling"...
03:19 PM veegee: Either way, getting an MT3 ER32 holder for the tailstock
03:20 PM veegee: Really need to make a toolpost grinder
03:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: hexagon5un: I've been offered similar lathes for $200 or just drag it out of here
03:29 PM CaptHindsight[m]: and similar piles of tooling, one lathe still had tools in the wax paper wrappers from the 50's-60's
03:31 PM Joe_Hildreth: WHELP, gonna reboot and see if my newly compiled kernel works this time. If not, I am taking your advice and copy the debian 10 config. brb
03:31 PM veegee: CaptHindsight[m] I now have a flatbed F-550 and a triple axle trailer rated for 18,000 lbs payload (mostly given to me for free)
03:31 PM veegee: And 5 forklifts
03:32 PM veegee: what was once a task requiring crazy amounts of planning is now just a short unplanned trip after a few beers
03:32 PM CaptHindsight[m]: so you needs that lathe now
03:32 PM veegee: Pick a forklift, load it onto the trailer, grab lathe
03:32 PM veegee: Damn I remember about 1.5 years ago, buying my first vertical mill
03:32 PM hexagon5un: CaptHindsight[m]: when I lived in the States, I lived in apartments. Now that I have a decent basement, it's in Germany, where those kind of "lathe for the cost of freight" deals are nowhere to be found.
03:32 PM veegee: The 2,000lb bridgeport clone
03:33 PM veegee: so much planning, had to build a gantry out of 4x4 to load and unload off a shitty uhaul trailer
03:33 PM veegee: so much effort
03:33 PM CaptHindsight[m]: have you tried picking up the smaller forklifts with the bigger forklifts untill you have 4 on the biggest one?
03:33 PM veegee: Yes
03:33 PM veegee: Because the workshop doesnt have a drive in ramp yet
03:33 PM veegee: Has a loading platform
03:34 PM veegee: So if I need to move the smaller forklifts, cars, etc. in and out of the workshop, the big 15k Clark forklift does it all
03:34 PM veegee: Also makes servicing the underside of any heavy machine easy
03:34 PM veegee: They're such amazing useful tools. Every bloke should have a forklift
03:35 PM enleth: imagine the accident rate if they did
03:35 PM veegee: Bought the 15k lb capacity Clark for $3,000 CAD. Dude must have been drunk to let it go for less than the scrap price of the metal
03:35 PM veegee: And everything on it works...
03:36 PM veegee: Going to be using it next week to pick up the 8,000 lb VMC
03:38 PM veegee: ebay: "ER32 Collet 45PC Set by 16th 32nd and Metric 2-20mm Cover Standard and MM NEW"
03:38 PM veegee: wtf why do you need that many?
03:38 PM veegee: Isn't 1mm increments enough to cover every possible clamping size?
03:40 PM CaptHindsight[m]: veegee: which model VMC?
03:43 PM veegee: CaptHindsight[m] "Leblond Makino FNC40-A16"
03:43 PM veegee: https://images2.imgbox.com/12/e1/PFioMZUk_o.jpg
03:43 PM veegee: This is it
03:43 PM veegee: 1984, amazing condition
03:43 PM veegee: $1,500. The guy is throwing in the mesa cards he bought for it for free
03:44 PM veegee: He was going to tear out all the old electronics and replace it with a mesa card and analog servo interface but he started a business and doesn't have the time anymore
03:44 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the control cabinet is almost as big as the frame
03:44 PM veegee: everything in working condition, including the automatic tool changer
03:44 PM veegee: Yeah it was full of ancient electronics and tape drives etc
03:44 PM veegee: All that is getting replaced with the mesa card
03:45 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the wonders of technology
03:45 PM veegee: It has a water cooled spindle for 24/7 production use. I went and checked the tolerances and it's in perfect condition
03:45 PM veegee: The worst part about it is the fact that it has brushed DC servos. At some point, going to replace them with AC servos.
03:45 PM veegee: But they work and for $1,500 obviously not going to complain
03:46 PM veegee: Its ball screws are enormous and still have their mirror finish. They're also ground, not rolled. SO EXCITED
03:46 PM veegee: slide ways have been kept oiled and no rust or anything
03:46 PM CaptHindsight[m]: what is the top speed for the spindle? 10k rpm? (10k rpm in metric)
03:47 PM veegee: They have telescopic covers. He took them off so I can look at the slide ways
03:47 PM veegee: I don't know, but he has the manual and all schematics and documents for it
03:47 PM veegee: It's definitely a high speed spindle. That is, not like a bridgeport spindle. It's a CAT 40
03:51 PM veegee: They are 1.1kW servos though. I wonder how rigid they are in terms of holding position
03:52 PM CaptHindsight[m] is now known as CheeseHelmet[m]
03:58 PM veegee: "In my experience with ER collets, NO, they do not hold equally well throughout the 1mm range. They especially suck at the low end. For example if you're holding a .120" drill in a "4-3" collet, you're taking chances. Better to squeeze that drill into a "3-2" collet. The concentricity is still good, but the grip sucks."
03:58 PM veegee: Ok I guess that answers that question
04:00 PM Rab: Seems like that'd be different for the various ER sizes.
04:01 PM veegee: Rab apparently they all have a nominal 1mm range regardless of the ER series
04:01 PM veegee: Rab according to this anyway: https://littlemachineshop.com/info/er_collet_sizes.php
04:02 PM CheeseHelmet[m] is now known as CaptHindsight[m]
04:02 PM Rab: Yeah, looks like it.
04:03 PM CaptHindsight[m]: if they offered them in fractional sizes do you know who would complain?
04:04 PM CaptHindsight[m]: e.g. fits 2-2 1/2mm
04:04 PM veegee: lol!
04:04 PM veegee: who?
04:05 PM CaptHindsight[m]: the decimalists
04:06 PM veegee: Well my only concern is the cost. But looks like that's unavoidable for precision machine tooling
04:28 PM CaptHindsight[m]: Auctions are the most often the way to obtain precision tools and tooling at low cost
04:31 PM Rab: I think I'd rather have Chinese collets than auction collets, unless you can verify they were well taken care of.
04:38 PM veegee: Any recommendations for a universal cutter grinder?
04:38 PM veegee: I need a more serious approach to grinding turning tools than a bench grinder
04:54 PM CloudEvil: veegee: nice
04:57 PM roycroft: grizzly actually have pretty good collets for good prices
04:58 PM roycroft: they bought south bend a decade or two ago, and sell south bend collets at reasonable prices
04:58 PM roycroft: the south bend stuff is made in china now, but it's made to high spec
05:06 PM JT-Shop: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/42899-in-response
05:35 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by cadmium.libera.chat
05:36 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by cadmium.libera.chat
05:38 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, was the forum having problems prior to the announcement?
05:39 PM Tom_L: and why am i showing a matrix bridge?
05:40 PM Tom_L: huh, oh well
06:04 PM _unreal_: matrix bridge?
06:07 PM Tom_L: yes
06:07 PM Tom_L: matrix
06:08 PM Tom_L: https://matrix.org/docs/projects/bridge/matrix-org-irc-bridge
06:16 PM _unreal_: OHHHHHHH irc bridge
06:16 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, I'm loving my cyclone
06:17 PM _unreal_: and the new blower
06:17 PM _unreal_: its sooooo powerful and quiet
06:18 PM Tom_L: nice
06:18 PM _unreal_: now I'm really pulling chips out from my dust shoe
06:19 PM _unreal_: that was my biggest issue before was that I didnt have enough air movement to really pick up the chips so they would pack the milling job
06:24 PM ve7it: _unreal_, do you have a pic of the new top section?
06:48 PM CaptHindsight: matrix bridge is broken
06:50 PM CaptHindsight: looks like #linuxcnc mode set to +v by cadmium.libera.chat broke it
06:52 PM CaptHindsight: or about then
06:53 PM _unreal_: hum
07:09 PM XXCoder: wow https://youtu.be/QBeOgGt_oWU
07:09 PM XXCoder: fractal vise
07:11 PM CloudEvil: _so_ much to rust or gall or ...
07:11 PM CloudEvil: Pretty awesome though
07:11 PM XXCoder: ow cracked cast
07:11 PM XXCoder: lets see how he repairs it
07:11 PM CloudEvil: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whippletree_(mechanism)
07:12 PM XXCoder: nice
07:12 PM CloudEvil: XXCoder: I hope he properly blues and scrapes all the mating surfaces.
07:12 PM XXCoder: yeah still watching
07:12 PM XXCoder: hes pretty good compared to many crap "restore" channels
07:12 PM CloudEvil: (not actually, that would be insane)
07:12 PM CloudEvil: (I assume it's not)
07:21 PM XXCoder: looks like screw is remake. too much damage
07:21 PM XXCoder: thats one o reasons I like him. he dont bondo shit
07:22 PM XXCoder: (well he does use it, but not to fill in massive holes)
07:26 PM XXCoder: CloudEvil: hes flattening but dunno if "flat"
07:38 PM XXCoder: man I love that video LOL
07:40 PM CloudEvil: you've seen the micro lathe recent ones?
07:41 PM CloudEvil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgCpDhpbO_g and similar
07:48 PM XXCoder: wow tiny lathe
07:49 PM XXCoder: smaller than mine even LOL
07:49 PM XXCoder: though mine is just wood
07:49 PM XXCoder: *for wood only
07:50 PM XXCoder: casting of base is kinda meh though
08:13 PM CloudEvil: Indeed, at that scale if you have a CNC, doing the whole thing out of billet might be easier
08:13 PM CloudEvil: Almost
08:13 PM CloudEvil: It would be fun to come up with a minimal tool list
10:35 PM roycroft: hello, folks
10:36 PM roycroft: at the risk of violating the new rules, i'd like to ask a question that may be somewhat off topic
10:37 PM roycroft: i've spent 11-1/2 hours designing some drawer pulls, and today i spent 5 hours making jigs to manufacture them and start making a prototype
10:37 PM roycroft: i have about 3 hours left to finish the prototype
10:38 PM roycroft: once that is done, i can easily calculate the time it takes to make one, and cost it out accordingly
10:38 PM roycroft: but how to amortize the design/prototyping cost?
10:39 PM Tom_L: depends if you plan to use it on other projects or not
10:39 PM roycroft: i've been just lumping it into shop overhead cost for a long time, but i'm not sure that's the best way to do it - some designs take less time to develop than others
10:39 PM Tom_L: custom costs more no doubt
10:39 PM roycroft: yes, it's a prototype for future products
10:39 PM roycroft: these are for a shop fixture
10:40 PM Tom_L: then eat part of it
10:40 PM roycroft: which is a good way to do prototyping
10:40 PM roycroft: sure
10:40 PM roycroft: but how much?
10:40 PM Tom_L: how fast can you recoup that cost?
10:41 PM roycroft: i usually figure 30% of my time is shop overhead, which includes this kind of development work, cleaning, maintaining machinery, etc.
10:41 PM Tom_L: and if you plan to use it again and again this one shouldn't bear the brunt of the dev cost
10:41 PM roycroft: i'm just wondering if i should stick with that figure, adjusting as conditions change overall, or try to separate development/prototyping costs out as separate costs
10:42 PM Tom_L: hard to say
10:42 PM roycroft: the last drawer pulls i designed took about half the design time, and probably about the same amount of time for prototyping and jigging
10:43 PM roycroft: i figure this is somewhat relevant because a lost of linuxcnc users are job shops, and deal with this issue regularly
10:44 PM roycroft: i should see how the prototypes turn out before doing any real cost calcuations, i suppose