#linuxcnc Logs
Jun 03 2021
#linuxcnc Calendar
04:21 AM Tom_L: morning
06:21 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by evilcorp.freenode.net
06:21 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by evilcorp.freenode.net
02:36 PM roycroft: nice
02:37 PM roycroft: the hardwood supplier i mainly use just got some shop grade 3/4" mdf and my price was $27.40/sheet
02:37 PM roycroft: which is half what the other folks are charging, when they even have it
02:37 PM roycroft: and this "shop grade" is really graded quality - we could not find any blemishes or flaws of any kind
02:37 PM roycroft: if i had a good place to store sheet goods i'd have stocked up on it
03:25 PM drdoc: A lot of the tools & instruments from that auction lot are heavily rusted
03:26 PM roycroft: so you can make them more compact now
03:27 PM drdoc: I'm thinking ultrasonic bath and then either baking soda paste or oxalic
03:27 PM roycroft: i'd remove the rust electrically
03:27 PM drdoc: Hmmm
03:28 PM roycroft: electrolysis works great
03:28 PM drdoc: why, instead of oxalic?
03:29 PM roycroft: clean any grease and gunk off first in the ultrasonic bath and then use electrolysis
03:29 PM drdoc: it does a great job with rust, and doesn't attack good steel
03:29 PM roycroft: electrolysis seems to do a better job in my experience
03:29 PM drdoc: ok
03:29 PM roycroft: but if you like oxalic acid that works too
03:30 PM roycroft: and for electrolysis you don't have to buy anything
03:30 PM drdoc: I guess it depends on what tools I need
03:31 PM * drdoc heads off to google land
03:31 PM roycroft: you just need a tub, a battery charger, some copper wire, baking soda, water, and a sacrificial anode, which is a scrap of steel or rebar
03:31 PM roycroft: not stainless steel though
03:31 PM drdoc: right
03:31 PM roycroft: o
03:31 PM drdoc: I need a new battery charger anyway
03:31 PM roycroft: i'm sure you have all of that
03:32 PM drdoc: nope
03:32 PM roycroft: and if you don't have a tub, you can use a bucket
03:32 PM roycroft: for small parts a gallon size ziplock bag would even do
03:32 PM drdoc: charger got taken when my storage unit got cleaned out
03:32 PM roycroft: oh bummer
03:32 PM roycroft: well you can use a car battery, except then you'd need to charge it after
03:32 PM roycroft: so the same problem
03:33 PM drdoc: along with all of my welding tools and a lot of my simthing stuff
03:33 PM drdoc: smithing
03:33 PM roycroft: that sucks
03:33 PM drdoc: anyhow
03:33 PM drdoc: it did
03:34 PM drdoc: I really do need a charger though. It's been on my get list for months
03:35 PM drdoc: hey, does anyone make a long, like 6-8" feeler for a Starrett wiggler?
03:35 PM drdoc: seems like that'd be prefect for tramming the router
03:37 PM drdoc: roycroft: I need a second opinion
03:38 PM drdoc: that little indexing head has both 3/4"-16 thread and MT1 taper for mating a chuck/plate
03:38 PM drdoc: I have 2 suitable chucks but they're both 1/2"-20 thread
03:39 PM drdoc: I'm thinking that a taper-to-thread arbor would be more precise than an adapter plate
03:39 PM drdoc: opinion?
03:41 PM drdoc: well, maybe not more precise. Less trouble to get centered and true
03:46 PM roycroft: i'd use a taper to thread arbor
03:56 PM veegee: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/nr7mox/which_punishment_either_real_or_imagined_sounds/
03:56 PM veegee: tickling is a form of torture
03:56 PM veegee: didn't know
04:12 PM perry_j1987: hows it goin guys
04:15 PM drdoc: it's going
04:15 PM drdoc: roycroft: I'm reading an Instructables about the electrolysis
04:16 PM drdoc: "browsing around on the web found people doing anything from small parts in a 1/2 gallon tub to a trailer body in a swimming pool using a large welder for the power."
04:16 PM drdoc: that's some serious dedication, right there.
04:17 PM roycroft: if you have a rusty cincinnati mill or monarch lathe you can just dip it in the pool and derust it with a giant generator
04:18 PM roycroft: you can use an old chevy nova as the sacrificial anode
04:18 PM roycroft: except those old chevy novas are already rust buckets
04:18 PM drdoc: yes, yes they are
04:18 PM drdoc: but holy crap
04:19 PM roycroft: but it would still be fun
04:19 PM drdoc: complete, they bring crazy money
04:27 PM drdoc: I did a set of Vega doors with oxalic acid in a pit once
04:28 PM drdoc: made silly money for digging a 4x6x1.5' hole and lining it with Visqueen
04:30 PM drdoc: I knew a beekeeper who had a gallon buckets of oxalic, and we tossed house-size sheets of visqueen ewvery time we moved the rig
04:31 PM drdoc: so the most expensive part of that job was a gallon of WD40
04:37 PM _unreal_: arg...
04:38 PM _unreal_: working on tuning my laser etcher
04:38 PM _unreal_: alignment
04:38 PM _unreal_: with the targeting laser
04:41 PM perry_j1987: im going to take my moped for a ride and cool down
04:59 PM _unreal_: wish I could find a mini laser light show projector
04:59 PM _unreal_: something that uses your standard 5mw laser level power
05:06 PM veegee: roycroft why not wet sand blasting?
05:06 PM roycroft: well that's pretty messy, for one thing
05:06 PM roycroft: and if one is not careful it can remove some good metal as well as the rust
05:06 PM veegee: Someone gave me their 1996 F250 for free. Everything works except being heavily surface rusted
05:07 PM veegee: contemplating getting an inflatable swimming pool to get rust off of large parts
05:07 PM veegee: It's going to get a full rebuild
05:07 PM roycroft: one of the things i really like about electrolysis is that it is so easy to control
05:07 PM roycroft: the downside of that is that it's slow
05:07 PM veegee: Power is not an issue, I have $10,000 lab grade 10 kW fully adjustable power supplies
05:07 PM roycroft: but it does not require any tending to, other than checking occasionally to see if it's done or not
05:08 PM veegee: needs a good pressure wash with hot water to degrease
05:08 PM roycroft: if you have heavily rusted parts it might make sense to media blast to get the loose rust off, then do the elecrolysis treatment to get the rest of it off
05:08 PM veegee: Hot water pressure washer at 4,000 PSI should take care of the loose stuff
05:12 PM veegee: What's the metric for measuring the "rigidity" of a metal? That is, lets say you have a round bar about 2m long. A cheap rebar will droop at the end significantly under its own weight. But C1018 won't nearly as much
05:12 PM veegee: Would "elongation" be the thing to look at?
05:14 PM roycroft: stiffness
05:14 PM veegee: Just trying to find a good general purpose metal that's decently machinable and weldable and doesn't need heat treatment for good yield strength in the annealed state. C1018 is significantly better than A36
05:14 PM * roycroft heads off to the shop
05:14 PM veegee: roycroft <3 enjoy
05:15 PM veegee: andypugh been reading a lot of your posts on linuxcnc forums by the way. Thanks for posting all that great information!
05:17 PM andypugh: veegee: Actually, the rebar and the C1018 will droop exactly the same amount, as long as they stay in the elastic region.
05:17 PM andypugh: The number to look at is “Youngs Modulus” and that is almost the same for every iron-based alloy.
05:18 PM veegee: andypugh really? I've seen vastly different behaviour for different grades of steel in the annealed state
05:18 PM veegee: That being said, my C1018 test must have been with cold rolled, I just realized
05:18 PM andypugh: If you stay in the region where it doesn’t _stay_ bent then they are equally stiff.
05:19 PM veegee: Yeah, before the yield point on the stress strain graph
05:19 PM veegee: But I didn't know that at all, going to do some reading into this
05:20 PM veegee: andypugh so I guess the hardening and heat treatment is the biggest factor for stiffness then?
05:20 PM andypugh: No, it makes no difference to the _stifness_
05:21 PM veegee: The young's modulus then
05:22 PM veegee: A36 has a very low yield point of 36,000 psi. C1018 has a significantly higher yield strength of 53,000 psi
05:22 PM andypugh: Indeed, but the stiffness (measured by the Young’s Modulus is almost exactly the same for all steels: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_773.html
05:24 PM andypugh: (I used to be a metallurgist, developing spring steels)
05:24 PM veegee: andypugh ok so what am I seeing happening between A36 and 4140 chromoly (both in annealed state), exact dimensions?
05:24 PM veegee: The A36 has significantly more droop like a fishing rod
05:25 PM veegee: the 4140 not nearly as much
05:25 PM veegee: andypugh amazing, I have a lot to learn from a metallurgist. I will bug you with many questions and find a way to compensate for 'your time
05:25 PM andypugh: Are they both straight, still, whrn unloaded?
05:25 PM veegee: andypugh yes, put them in a fixture to visually measure this exactly
05:26 PM andypugh: Tiny changes in diameter will have a big effect on stifness in bending. It scales with the 4th power of diameter.
05:26 PM veegee: so then what's going on with spring steels? Is it the same idea except their plastic deformation range is just _much_ higher
05:27 PM andypugh: Yes, you harden them to get a very high yield strength, and that allows you to store more energy before the metal yields.
05:27 PM veegee: andypugh ok so at the end of the day, the young's modulus is the same for all alloys and A36 is fine unless I specifically need the higher yield strength?
05:27 PM andypugh: Yes.
05:27 PM veegee: andypugh wow thank you so much
05:28 PM andypugh: If your criterion is deflection under a load, and you are below the yield stress, then all steels are pretty much the same.
05:30 PM andypugh: night all
05:30 PM veegee: Damn, that pretty much answers exactly what I needed to know
05:32 PM perry_j1987: man that little moped is sure fun
06:39 PM roycroft: hmm
06:39 PM roycroft: this "new, open box" forstner drill that i just got is actually slightly used
06:39 PM roycroft: i was afraid that might be the case, but it's still in really good condition, and i got it for less than half of what it would cost brand new, with free shipping
06:39 PM roycroft: so i'll probably not make an issue of it
07:13 PM _unreal_: man ALLLL of irc seems to be slow
07:13 PM _unreal_: so printing more oof the parts to my two stage cyclone separator
07:23 PM * roycroft just keeps gluing things together
07:29 PM _unreal_: ?
07:29 PM flyback: https://youtu.be/AQnyd0lML9o?t=157
07:41 PM roycroft: and with all the clamps i have, and i have a *lot*, i still don't have nearly enough of the kind i like to use for these glue-ups
07:42 PM _unreal_: flyback, did you happen to notice the crack in that fly wheel
07:43 PM roycroft: but that's ok, my shop is too small anyway
07:43 PM _unreal_: roycroft, I @#%$@#$^%!$%Q#$^@!#%$^!@#%$!#%$ know your pain
07:43 PM roycroft: _unreal_: i have about $2k invested in bessey revo k-body parallel clamps
07:43 PM _unreal_: OH i LOVE THOSE
07:43 PM roycroft: and i could drop twice that much again before i felt i had enough
07:43 PM roycroft: yeah
07:43 PM roycroft: i've been buying them since the original models with the wooden handles
07:44 PM _unreal_: I have about 100 6" slide bar clamps
07:44 PM roycroft: i really like the latest version though
07:44 PM _unreal_: and I run out now and then doing FRP projects
07:44 PM roycroft: i'm getting old and somewhat arthritic
07:44 PM _unreal_: then again thats dividing them between multi projects
07:44 PM roycroft: it's hard to twist the clamp handles really hard any more
07:45 PM roycroft: but the latest version of the revos have 6mm hex sockets in the ends of the handles
07:45 PM roycroft: so i can get them hand tight, which pales in comparison to what hand tight used to be for me
07:45 PM roycroft: and then give them a good twist with a hex key wrench
07:46 PM roycroft: most of my clamps are bessey
07:46 PM roycroft: other than the parallel clamps, i like the tradesmen line
07:48 PM roycroft: like these: https://www.amazon.com/Bessey-H1319-Tradesmen-Clamp-Throat/dp/B0000DD27A
07:48 PM _unreal_: roycroft, I prefer clamps with the perpendicular slide bar for tensioning
07:48 PM _unreal_: always have
07:48 PM roycroft: i have a bunch of 8" clamps with a 4" throat, and a bunch of 6" clamps with a 2-1/2" throat
07:48 PM _unreal_: BUT
07:49 PM _unreal_: the ones I listed all have that same POS round dowel handle
07:49 PM roycroft: and i have exactly two of those clamps that are 18" long with a 7" throat
07:49 PM roycroft: which are amazing
07:49 PM roycroft: and are also on sale at rockler right now, so i'm probably going to get a couple more
07:49 PM roycroft: you can fix that, _unreal_
07:49 PM roycroft: get yourself some stick tape
07:49 PM roycroft: i.e. the tape that's used on hockey sticks
07:49 PM _unreal_: stick tape?
07:49 PM _unreal_: OH
07:49 PM _unreal_: ehh
07:49 PM _unreal_: wouldnt work
07:49 PM roycroft: wrap the handle with that
07:50 PM roycroft: then let the tape dangle, and twist it really tight to make a "rope"
07:50 PM _unreal_: I have to mask clamps often with blue 2020 masking tape
07:50 PM _unreal_: to protect them from resin's
07:50 PM roycroft: wrap that back around the handle, then wrap over it with the stick tape again
07:50 PM roycroft: and you'll have great grip
07:50 PM _unreal_: no doubht
07:50 PM _unreal_: doubht
07:50 PM _unreal_: fuck
07:50 PM _unreal_: doubt
07:51 PM roycroft: the one problem i have with the bessey tradesman clamps is that the plastic pads come off easily
07:51 PM roycroft: and they go missing faster than a single sock does
07:51 PM roycroft: i've thought about epoxying cork pads on the clamps and getting rid of the plastic pads
07:51 PM roycroft: but i've never gotten around to it
07:52 PM roycroft: it seems like it would be a maintenance nightmare - eventually the cork will get worn/damaged/whatever, and it would be really hard to remove because of the epoxy
07:52 PM roycroft: what i should really do is design some tight fitting pads and 3d print them
07:54 PM roycroft: anyway
07:54 PM roycroft: https://www.rockler.com/bessey-tg-professional-series-bar-clamps
07:54 PM roycroft: get some of those and you'll wonder how you ever lived so long without them
07:55 PM roycroft: and they have the rubber-like handles now, with the greater grip than the wooden ones
07:56 PM _unreal_: roycroft, gorilla glue
07:56 PM _unreal_: I have about 20 of those kind of clamps at work but most are in the 50" range
07:57 PM _unreal_: ALL OF THEM have the pads glued in place because there high quality POS plastic.
07:57 PM _unreal_: typically use gorilla glue, or 5200
07:57 PM _unreal_: mainly gorilla glue
07:57 PM roycroft: i'll try using gorilla glue on a couple of them
07:58 PM _unreal_: 5200 does a better job but messy
07:58 PM _unreal_: SCUFF first
07:58 PM roycroft: i never thought about using it for that, because it requires moisture to cure
07:58 PM roycroft: and it's hard to spray cast iron or plastic and have it retain any moisture
07:58 PM _unreal_: 5200 use mineral spirts to clean ONLY
07:58 PM _unreal_: no alcohals
07:58 PM _unreal_: like acetone, or denatured
07:59 PM roycroft: shoe goo might work
07:59 PM _unreal_: maybe
07:59 PM roycroft: which is similar to 5200
07:59 PM _unreal_: never tried but I believe thats more of a silicone
07:59 PM roycroft: and which i have
07:59 PM roycroft: it's extremely strong stuff
07:59 PM roycroft: i mean
07:59 PM roycroft: it is made to glue shoes back together that have come apart
07:59 PM roycroft: and it lasts for years
08:00 PM roycroft: shoes are a really tough test of an adhesive
08:00 PM _unreal_: LOL SHOE goo. today a guy at work came to me crying because he was loosing his sole
08:00 PM _unreal_: so I got some plexus, and told him to put the shoe up on the counter
08:00 PM _unreal_: filled the seperation. then told hi, SORRY IF YOU HAVE A HOLE INSIDE but stick your foot in to SET the mold of your foot to the plexus
08:00 PM _unreal_: no holes
08:01 PM _unreal_: later he complained that his shoe was REALLLLY stiff
08:01 PM _unreal_: I was like ya but is your sole falling off any more
08:01 PM _unreal_: "NO" then SHAAADAP
08:02 PM roycroft: anyway, i upgraded my jointer a few months ago from a 6" to an 8"
08:02 PM roycroft: today i had some 7" wide maple to flatten
08:02 PM _unreal_: so its almost hung like a horse now eehhhh
08:02 PM roycroft: first time i actually needed the extra width
08:02 PM roycroft: it was nice
08:02 PM roycroft: the first jointer i ever bought was an 8", back in 1982 or so
08:02 PM _unreal_: nice
08:03 PM _unreal_: roycroft, I showed you this ya? https://photos.app.goo.gl/1ejmwQjHGskbBvob9
08:03 PM roycroft: i sold that when i moved down to eugene in the early '90s, and have been living with a 6" jointer ever since
08:03 PM roycroft: i'm so happy i went back to an 8"
08:03 PM _unreal_: eheh 1982, back when I was an ASS WIpe
08:03 PM roycroft: yeha, i saw that the other day
08:03 PM roycroft: nice work
08:03 PM _unreal_: I keep adding photos
08:04 PM roycroft: and it looks like you've found or created a market
08:04 PM roycroft: which is the most important thing
08:04 PM _unreal_: ya
08:04 PM _unreal_: I have NOT even advertized and I already have worked 6 clients
08:04 PM roycroft: my aim is, and has been for a couple years, to have my wood shop in production mode by the end of this summer
08:05 PM roycroft: and i think i'll meet that goal
08:05 PM _unreal_: well if you need something laser etched ;)
08:05 PM roycroft: but being in production mode and having enough business to sustain it are two different things
08:05 PM roycroft: well, i have a laser myself :)
08:05 PM _unreal_: :p
08:05 PM _unreal_: size type?
08:06 PM _unreal_: mine is designed to be able to have unlimated work area
08:06 PM roycroft: i just got a 6w laser for my 3d printer
08:06 PM _unreal_: ah
08:06 PM roycroft: it is what i want/need for now
08:06 PM roycroft: if my needs change i'll get something else
08:06 PM _unreal_: Ineed a larger 3d printer but what I have for now works
08:06 PM _unreal_: ditto
08:06 PM _unreal_: 3d printer wise
08:06 PM roycroft: my shop space is very limited
08:06 PM _unreal_: mine is more so
08:06 PM _unreal_: I'M SURE
08:07 PM roycroft: i don't pretend that i can run a successful full-time business from my home shop
08:07 PM roycroft: i can get started
08:07 PM roycroft: and generate enough revenue to afford to lease some commercial shop space
08:07 PM roycroft: and then i can go at it full-time
08:07 PM _unreal_: SURE YOU CAN..but do you need to? or are you looking for the fun money from a small business?
08:08 PM roycroft: i'm looking to make my living from it
08:08 PM roycroft: i.e. quit my day job
08:08 PM _unreal_: heh
08:08 PM roycroft: which may end anyway
08:09 PM _unreal_: we will see I may explode when I start advertizing in my area
08:09 PM _unreal_: there are a lot of peole who do laser etching but NO one has a laser setup like mine
08:09 PM _unreal_: and I do mean no one
08:09 PM roycroft: you and i disagree on a lot of things, as you and everyone else on this channel are well aware
08:09 PM _unreal_: but?
08:09 PM _unreal_: o,O you sob?? O,o ;)
08:10 PM roycroft: but i have to say, i've followed your progress on building your business, and i'm impressed
08:10 PM roycroft: you have some solid goals, and work hard to achieve them
08:10 PM _unreal_: my biggest handicap is "programming" coding...
08:10 PM _unreal_: I need to get a conroller board I got compiled for/with grbl
08:10 PM _unreal_: and its beyond me
08:11 PM roycroft: that's something not everyone can wrap their head around
08:11 PM _unreal_: anything in the physical world.. I WOW PEOPLE endlessly.
08:11 PM roycroft: you have a vision, and drive
08:11 PM _unreal_: coding not so much
08:12 PM roycroft: i'm sure you'll find a way to get whatever help you need with the things you cannot do on your own
08:12 PM _unreal_: and yet I wrote code for a custom controller to PWM the extration fans AND air assist air compressor
08:12 PM roycroft: anyway, it's time to make dinner, and see if i'm ready for the next round of glue-ups
08:12 PM _unreal_: well I have one person who said they would deal with the code for me but its been weeks now and no results
08:12 PM roycroft: it's a warm day, so the glue is kicking off pretty fast
08:12 PM _unreal_: oh well it will happen sooner or later
08:13 PM _unreal_: the main this is that when I get that other controller programmed it will up the speed of my laser etcher by many X's
08:13 PM _unreal_: ya same here
08:13 PM _unreal_: dinn din
08:13 PM roycroft: hopefully you're somewhat like me, and have a lot of things in the hopper, so when you run into a snag on one project, you focus on others until you get it worked out
08:13 PM _unreal_: got to get the kid
08:13 PM _unreal_: PLENTY
08:14 PM _unreal_: right now I'm printing a half sized two stage DUST seperator
08:14 PM _unreal_: going to use it for my cnc machine
08:14 PM _unreal_: reduced by 49% of its original size
08:15 PM _unreal_: so its 51% of its original size taking it from "more or less" A 2" dust collection system too a 1"
08:15 PM _unreal_: which is what my desktop cnc machine I have uses
08:15 PM _unreal_: well it uses 1.25" but who cares.
08:15 PM * roycroft has spend much of his career doing project management, and uses gant charts and other other project timeline tools for most of his stuff, but spends a lot of time modifying them when external factors that he cannot control change
08:28 PM roycroft: oh wow
08:28 PM roycroft: i wasn't aware of this before, but shoe goo are based right here in eugene
08:28 PM roycroft: i've been using the stuff since i lived back east in the '70s
08:29 PM roycroft: it's originally from california, but they moved here in 1988
08:30 PM _unreal_: nifty
08:31 PM roycroft: they're actually very close to my house
08:31 PM roycroft: less than 3 miles away
08:31 PM _unreal_: free samples?
08:32 PM roycroft: and right next to the bike path that i've ridden on a zillion times
08:32 PM roycroft: i don't know
08:32 PM roycroft: but the tube i have now i've had for several years
08:32 PM roycroft: i only need to buy it every 10 years or so - a little bit goes a long way
09:59 PM Tom_L: wonder if this is worth a crap: https://www.amazon.com/Rockwood-Pneumatic-Grinding-Polishing-Die-Casting/dp/B07NMS5VPG/ref=sr_1_8
10:01 PM Tom_L: nevermind, 3/8 is too narrow
10:09 PM roycroft: those little sanders are actually really useful
10:19 PM Tom_L: i want one at least 1" wide though
10:26 PM roycroft: that would also be useful
10:26 PM roycroft: but if you get a 1/2" wide one you'll find all sorts of uses for it
10:31 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, DONT BUY that its a LOAD OF SHIT
10:31 PM _unreal_: its the same model that harbor freight sell's ITS pos
10:32 PM roycroft: there are youtube videos about making a sander like that
10:32 PM roycroft: you could always build your own, and make it 1" wide
10:32 PM _unreal_: that one will TOTLALLY fall apart
10:32 PM _unreal_: again its total POS
10:32 PM * roycroft has had one from harbor freight for at least 20 years, uses it all the time, and it still works fine
10:34 PM roycroft: tracking is a bit fiddly these days, but it's well worn, so not too surprising, that