#linuxcnc Logs

May 21 2021

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:26 AM veegee: Bleepshop where did you get your belts and sheives?
12:33 AM veegee: sheave*
12:39 AM CaptHindsight: veegee: automation technologies is near me, i know the owner
12:39 AM veegee: CaptHindsight nice, I'm leaning very heavily towards the leadshine servos
12:39 AM veegee: The price/performance looks good
12:43 AM veegee: the clearpath servos look good for their high power models. $1,200 for a 3kW continuous servo? I can replace my lathe spindle with that
12:45 AM veegee: I'm very curious about this beast: https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-42/nema42-hybrid-stepper-motor-4230-oz-kl42h2201-80-4a
12:46 AM veegee: That's 30 N•m of holding torque
12:48 AM drdoc: I may have scored ugly today
12:49 AM drdoc: I bid & won an auction thinking that one of the included items is an IBM p5-520 or 550, plus the pc that controls it and a Cisco 6500 that I totally don't need
12:50 AM drdoc: and another unidentified IBM-looking rackmount box with the bevelk torn off
12:51 AM drdoc: bezel*
12:52 AM drdoc: after looking at the photos the 43rd time I realized that last one is another p5 box
12:52 AM XXCoder: scored ugly? bad?
12:52 AM drdoc: no, ugly big
12:53 AM XXCoder: way to go then heh
12:53 AM drdoc: those p5 systems run $1100 to $3500 off-lease or used
12:54 AM drdoc: I got 2, plus a couple of Cisco modules worth $50-60 apiece,
12:54 AM drdoc: for $125
12:57 AM XXCoder: damn
12:59 AM drdoc: yeah
01:00 AM drdoc: they may be totally gutted or had the magic smoke removed, which would make me cry
01:01 AM drdoc: but chances are pretty good can make one running system at least
01:01 AM CaptHindsight: https://imgur.com/zABXUDz LS7 1.8:1 rockers on a LZ4 head, starts to walk off the valve stem at full lift
01:02 AM CaptHindsight: https://imgur.com/zABXUDz video
01:04 AM drdoc: same link
01:04 AM CaptHindsight: https://imgur.com/6ZxEpKG oops
01:05 AM drdoc: that ain't good
01:06 AM drdoc: I'm gonna have to build a baffled cage for those IBM servers
01:06 AM CaptHindsight: considering an offset IF I want to use them
01:07 AM drdoc: I dunno, Cap'n. I think I'd look for a better fit first
01:07 AM CaptHindsight: 6% more valve lift, not sure if it's worth the trouble
01:08 AM drdoc: right
01:08 AM drdoc: how much would that improve your flow?
01:08 AM drdoc: that 6% I mean
01:11 AM CaptHindsight: running some numbers and checking others results
01:12 AM drdoc: cool
01:18 AM Deejay: moin
01:21 AM drdoc: mornin
01:21 AM drdoc: I'm so screwed
01:21 AM XXCoder: in what way?
01:22 AM drdoc: I found an estate auction
01:23 AM drdoc: the guy apparently was a watchmaker
01:24 AM drdoc: https://texas.hibid.com/lot/91331396/antique-foredom-drill-press--indexer--lathe/
01:24 AM drdoc: one example, and whoever grouped the lots & wrotethe listings has no clue
01:25 AM XXCoder: looks like lot of tiny lathes and drill presses
01:25 AM XXCoder: i guess very expensibe?
01:36 AM drdoc: not so much expensive as hard to find
01:36 AM drdoc: that auction lists one lot as "Vintage Tools: levels, snips, bits and more"
01:38 AM XXCoder: lol
06:06 AM XXCoder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiGH6rLYJgw LOL
06:06 AM XXCoder: probably fine if dont have money and want to do something
06:07 AM enleth: or need a small engraving bit and just broke the last real one
06:07 AM XXCoder: yeah
06:08 AM enleth: there really isn't much more to real engraving bits than this
06:08 AM XXCoder: well techinically he have hundreds now
06:08 AM XXCoder: for few bucks
06:31 AM veegee: I've never actually used a servo motor
06:31 AM veegee: If I give a stepper motor one pulse and do microstepping, I can make the shaft turn an extremely tiny amount
06:32 AM veegee: How does that work for a servo?
06:34 AM enleth: veegee: are you asking about proper servos with position control loop in linuxcnc, or servos-pretending-to-be-steppers?
06:34 AM veegee: Both, now that you mention it
06:35 AM veegee: Something like this https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/ac-servo-motors/ac-servo-motor-kits-750w-220vac has step/dir interface
06:35 AM enleth: if it has a step/dir interface, it's doing an internal position control loop and all you're doing through that interface is shifting the set position in discrete increments
06:36 AM enleth: you can probably just expect it to act like a stepper and ignore the details if you wish
06:37 AM enleth: what is actually happening is that the controller is reacting to the shaft being moved by the load by immediately counteracting the movement
06:38 AM enleth: a stepper holds the shaft in position because it's being fed constant holding current into the windings, possibly into several windings at once in some proportion if microstepping is enabled
06:38 AM enleth: as soon as the externally applied torque exceeds the configured holding torque (the torque that results from the configured holding current), it'll lose position
06:39 AM enleth: a servo holds the shaft because it's actively monitoring it for any movement and instantly, actively and purposefully forcing the shaft in the other direction from the external torque
06:40 AM enleth: and it'll use its full rated power to do that if needed
06:40 AM enleth: but it'll pretty much power down if nothing is trying to move the shaft externally
06:41 AM enleth: so it's not trying to fry itself constantly like a stepper does, and it still does a better job holding position
06:43 AM enleth: veegee: a traditional servo setup that doesn't try to imitate steppers has a servo drive with an analog input (or a fieldbus command that takes an equivalent value), which can be configured to either mean velocity or torque
06:44 AM enleth: and in this case, linuxcnc or another controller monitors the encoder and executes a position control loop
06:46 AM enleth: if the actual and commanded positions diverge (either because something moved the shaft, or a higher control layer requested a change in commanded position - it doesn't matter, those are one and the same thing for the servo position loop). it'll apply a non-zero analog signal to the servo drive, commandin it to start moving the shaft at a given speed, or applying a given constant torque to it
06:48 AM enleth: veegee: roughly speaking, small machines typically use velocity control, while large stuff tends to use torque control because it's more suited to controlling movement of multi-ton assemblies
06:49 AM enleth: where speeds are low anyway and forces are huge and need to be controlled
06:50 AM enleth: veegee: further reading is definitely the PID algorithm, you need to understand it in order to understand servos
06:53 AM enleth: veegee: oh, and a servo system that has been overpowered by the load it's trying to move is instantly aware of this fact
06:54 AM enleth: veegee: a stepper-like controller is likely to have a "position error" output that should be wired to linuxcnc and trigger e-stop
06:55 AM enleth: veegee: in a full servo setup, linuxcnc will do it as soon as ferror exceeds the configured maximum
06:55 AM enleth: veegee: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Following_Error
06:56 AM enleth: veegee: if you're still looking for servos to buy, try to find a servo drive that has the proper analog input in addition to the step/dir emulation and get that, if it's not a huge additional expense
06:56 AM enleth: you'll be free to experiment with a proper servo setup later on
07:27 AM jthornton: morning
07:27 AM Tom_L: morning
07:27 AM Tom_L: interweb was down again
07:29 AM jthornton: your isp down?
07:29 AM Tom_L: supposedly they were "makeing it better"
07:34 AM jthornton: brb going to see if I can get hexchat to work on the linux side of this laptop
07:40 AM XXCoder: dont forget to join other server too for linux client
07:40 AM jthornton: yo
07:41 AM XXCoder: yo. dont forget to join other server too for linux client
07:41 AM XXCoder: lol
07:41 AM jthornton: ok both hexchats are working the windblows side and linux side
07:42 AM jthornton: hmm wonder why ##chickens didn't auto load
07:43 AM XXCoder: linux client hexchat have one strange bug'
07:43 AM XXCoder: if you shut down os without closing hexchat
07:43 AM XXCoder: it wont save settings
07:44 AM XXCoder: thats why i left and returned so many times yeserday. i was changing settings and closing client to save it
07:44 AM jthornton: that could be the issue
07:44 AM XXCoder: i told hexchat people of this stupid bug they dont belive me.
07:44 AM XXCoder: "oh it autosaves each change"
07:44 AM XXCoder: yeah no
07:45 AM jthornton: and they won't test it?
07:45 AM XXCoder: seems not
07:45 AM XXCoder: https://www.allelectronics.com/item/dcm-2460/24-vdc-brushless-motor-600-watt/1.html
07:45 AM XXCoder: seems to be a good deal?
07:49 AM jthornton: what are you going to use that on?
07:50 AM XXCoder: oh not buying
07:50 AM _methods: do you really want to know?
07:50 AM XXCoder: just wondered
07:51 AM XXCoder: jt i reported hexchat bug once again, once again
07:51 AM XXCoder: lets see iof they actually reply LOL
07:52 AM _methods: https://hexchat.readthedocs.io/en/latest/building.html
07:53 AM _methods: just build your own with the fix you want
07:53 AM XXCoder: im using latest.
07:53 AM _methods: https://github.com/hexchat/hexchat
07:53 AM XXCoder: i dont know how to really edit it now
07:53 AM _methods: source is there
07:53 AM XXCoder: i dont know how to really edit it now
07:55 AM jthornton: someone screwed up my face.py program and made defaults metric and they don't change when you select inch
07:57 AM XXCoder: doh. whats face.py do?
07:57 AM jthornton: generates g code to face off a part
08:00 AM XXCoder: ahh
08:00 AM XXCoder: critical
08:01 AM jthornton: I'm going to do it over in pyqt5 I think
08:03 AM jthornton: if your going to put defaults in which is a bad idea make them change when you change units
08:04 AM XXCoder: ie convert numbers?
08:04 AM jthornton: you hear often enough well I just used the defaults without engaging the brain
08:04 AM XXCoder: ie if its 1' change to metric it change it to 300m
08:04 AM XXCoder: 300mm*
08:04 AM jthornton: 25mm
08:04 AM XXCoder: 1' is roughly 300mm ;)
08:04 AM jymmmm: Morning
08:05 AM _methods: it roughly takes 7000 chickens to equal 1 horse
08:05 AM jthornton: but 1" is 25.4mm and mm to inch is mm x 0.3937
08:05 AM XXCoder: read my text bit more carefully :)
08:06 AM jthornton: oh one foot
08:06 AM XXCoder: anyway night lol very late. been having insomia.
08:06 AM XXCoder: :D
08:06 AM jthornton: can hardly see this screen
08:07 AM jthornton: I must be getting a million updates on this side of the laptop lol
08:16 AM _methods: so did you upgrade to starlink jthornton
08:17 AM serp: I got an invite to "pre-order" back in early feb and did.. but have heard nothing from them since.
08:19 AM _methods: i thought it was open enrollment now?
08:23 AM serp: Not that I'm aware... lots of people can put in the $50 to put your name on the list
08:28 AM _methods: Starlink is available to a limited number of users per coverage area at this time. Orders will be fulfilled on a first-come, first-served basis.
08:28 AM _methods: semi-beta
08:28 AM _methods: lol
08:29 AM jthornton: _methods: no, still on viasat
08:30 AM _methods: damn i've been wanting to hear how it is
08:30 AM _methods: i really don't trust the articles i've read
08:30 AM jthornton: is available to you?
08:31 AM _methods: it looks like it
08:31 AM _methods: i am tempted to order it but i don't know if i want another $100 bill for something that i'll only use during hurricanes
08:32 AM _methods: i might see if i can get the wife's work to pay for it so we have an alternate data line when hurricane/storm interrupt service
08:34 AM Loetmichel: **BRUHAHAHA* Amazing how much "time of flight" you get out of a simple part leg that you snipped off with a PCB sidecutter. That were at LEAST 5 bounces off the Flourescents on the ceiling before it hit the ground what felt like seconds later :)
08:34 AM Loetmichel: <- is "shooting" coworkers atm, populating PCBs
08:35 AM jthornton: Starlink is targeting coverage in your area in mid to late 2021. You will receive a notification once your Starlink is ready to ship.
08:35 AM _methods: nice
08:36 AM jthornton: $680 plus $100 a month
08:37 AM jthornton: $100 down
08:37 AM serp: I was on viasat for a while and was not a fan at all. Then AT&T came by and offered "fixed wireless" which is using cell towers instead of satellite which has been much better... but i'll try starlink if it ever opens up to me
08:38 AM jthornton: my buddy has a wireless hot spot
08:52 AM perry_j1987: g'morning
11:07 AM roycroft: so i was just speaking with someone with roseburg forest products
11:07 AM roycroft: he told me they've been trying to increase production of manufactured wood products for months, in hopes of keeping up with demand, but that there is a serious resin shortage that is preventing them from doing so
11:08 AM roycroft: and he has no good estimate of when resin will be more available
11:35 AM _methods: there's enough meth heads around there they should unlimited amounts of resin
11:37 AM roycroft: i should point out that roseburg oregon is perhaps the meth capital of america
11:38 AM roycroft: one would think that if that resin were suitable, roseburg forest products would be able to easily obtain it
11:45 AM roycroft: well, it loosk like the end of an era for me
11:45 AM roycroft: i've been using sendmail as the mta on every mail system i've managed since the mid '80s
11:46 AM roycroft: but i really need sni support for the mta on this new server that i'm putting online, and there is no sni support in sendmail, so it's time to move on to postfix
12:55 PM drdoc: roycroft: you'll love postfix
01:09 PM Tom_L: _methods, skunkworks parents have starlink i think
01:17 PM _methods: ah cool would love to hear some first hand accounts of it's performance
01:17 PM CaptHindsight: no Starlink mobile yet
01:17 PM Tom_L: _methods, afik they like it
01:17 PM CaptHindsight: they location lock your service to within a few mile radious of your location
01:18 PM CaptHindsight: radius even
01:22 PM _methods: ah i'd assume they don't want to overload certain sections or something
01:23 PM _methods: can only handle so much traffic on certain nodes
01:23 PM _methods: until the cover the skies with their mind control satellites
01:25 PM roycroft: mind control satellites are not necessary
01:25 PM roycroft: the spy/tracking chips that are injected as part of the "vaccine" can also do mind control via 5g
01:26 PM roycroft: just ask any wingnut
01:26 PM _methods: i mean you can't just rely on one source of mind control
01:26 PM roycroft: they'll explain it to you
01:26 PM _methods: gotta have some redundancy
01:27 PM roycroft: this is 'murica! we do things right the first time! we don't need no steenkin' redundancy!
01:27 PM roycroft: rah rah and tally ho!
01:28 PM roycroft: the question of the hour is, though, am i likely to find some 12-24 stainless steel threaded rod locally?
01:28 PM roycroft: i'm thinking probably not
01:31 PM Tom_L: sure, try your local convenience store
01:32 PM CaptHindsight: if the hot dogs and taquitos heat for long enough they can make for a substitute
01:40 PM Tom_L: i bet mcmaster has em
01:40 PM Tom_L: (not taquitos)
01:42 PM roycroft: but mcmaster are a 7 hour drive from here
01:42 PM Tom_L: fastenal 'can get them in a day or so'
01:43 PM Tom_L: ace hardware doesn't but they can sell you some gardening tools instead
01:44 PM CaptHindsight: went to Ace yesterday, paid $2 for a M8x1.25 - 50mm
01:45 PM CaptHindsight: hex socket head screw
01:45 PM miss0r: CaptHindsight: The rear of the 101" is now complete! https://imgur.com/a/uDkq1wz
01:46 PM Tom_L: the home depot attendant doesn't know but he can check his phone app. now what was it you wanted again?
01:47 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight, yeah i go to my local fastener guy and get a box of 100 for that
01:48 PM roycroft: i need some fairly short pieces, so i might be best off getting some 12-24 shch in stainless, and cutting the heads off
01:48 PM roycroft: which is what i'm off to investigate right now
01:49 PM CaptHindsight: miss0r: \0/
01:49 PM miss0r: CaptHindsight: Yeah, I'm pretty happy with it too :)
01:50 PM CaptHindsight: miss0r: putting down the final layers of color shift today and tomorrow https://i.imgur.com/fltcp2y.jpg
01:51 PM miss0r: oh damn :]
01:51 PM miss0r: Can't wait to see the finished result!
01:51 PM CaptHindsight: it shifts blue - violet
01:52 PM CaptHindsight: has flake in 4 layers so it looks 3d
01:52 PM miss0r: Hehe. You've put more thought/work into the paints than I have my entire project here
01:53 PM roycroft: i should talk to you about my vw bus sometime, capthindsight
01:53 PM roycroft: i want to do an interesting paint job on it, and i'm not sure how to get the effect i want
01:53 PM roycroft: but i'm out the door right now
01:53 PM roycroft: i'll ask you later, if you don't mind
01:53 PM CaptHindsight: next project $300 barn find, sons S.O. https://i.imgur.com/wzV3l4z.jpg
01:54 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: no problem
01:54 PM miss0r: Is that a pontiac?
01:54 PM CaptHindsight: '85 Fiero, the only mid engine the US produced
01:54 PM miss0r: oh lol. it zooms...
01:54 PM miss0r: and so it is
01:55 PM miss0r: that sounds like a steal
01:55 PM CaptHindsight: https://i.imgur.com/wlQWbZx.jpg look at the paint
01:55 PM miss0r: yeah.. that needs to go
01:55 PM miss0r: But how is the car other than the paint?
01:55 PM CaptHindsight: sat in a wet barn for 20+ years
01:56 PM CaptHindsight: was covered in a layer of mildew
01:56 PM miss0r: yeah well... My 88" land rover sat outside for 25 years. It runs todaty :]
01:56 PM miss0r: (but that took some work)
01:56 PM CaptHindsight: the suspension is all coated in surface rust, so just a good blasting and repaint
01:57 PM CaptHindsight: every piece of rubber has rotted
01:57 PM miss0r: yeah, that is to be expected.
01:57 PM miss0r: does it fire up?
01:57 PM CaptHindsight: already have anew engine cradle and will be piecing in some new box frame
01:57 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, it runs, but no brakes!
01:57 PM miss0r: meh.. secondary controls...
01:58 PM miss0r: ;D
01:58 PM CaptHindsight: swapping to a newer 6 cyl engine and 4-speed auto
01:58 PM miss0r: hah. I would've thought it was a v8
01:58 PM miss0r: but then again, I think all american cars are
01:58 PM miss0r: :D
01:58 PM CaptHindsight: getting an open source engine controller
01:58 PM CaptHindsight: this actually came with a 92hp 4cyl
01:59 PM miss0r: how much displacement? (In liters preferably) :)
02:00 PM CaptHindsight: will be 1200Kg when complete and have ~ 250hp (186KW)
02:00 PM CaptHindsight: 3.5L
02:00 PM miss0r: That sounds like fun :D
02:00 PM CaptHindsight: https://i.imgur.com/fUpRPD3.jpg
02:01 PM miss0r: Sweet
02:01 PM CaptHindsight: still a pushrod engine
02:01 PM miss0r: My personal favorite type tbh
02:01 PM CaptHindsight: then I'm done with cars until after 2030 :)
02:01 PM Vq: "Patent Pending" is a funny name for an engine. :o)
02:02 PM miss0r: hehe.. You say that now. BUT another opportunity might present itself
02:03 PM CaptHindsight: know when to stop
02:03 PM CaptHindsight: there is always mission creep
02:03 PM miss0r: I know myself well enough to know that only my wife knows when I need to stop :)
02:03 PM CaptHindsight: you know if we swap cams we will get another 40hp, but then you have to change valve springs....
02:04 PM miss0r: well. You have it apart anyway, go for it :D
02:04 PM CaptHindsight: or Corvette brakes almost bolt on....
02:04 PM CaptHindsight: hey a turbo kit is on sale for $1200
02:04 PM miss0r: Now we're talking :)
02:04 PM CaptHindsight: this will be a daily driver
02:05 PM CaptHindsight: and a "girls" car
02:05 PM miss0r: underpowered cars are dangerous for your blood pressure. Keep that in mind. :)
02:05 PM miss0r: Girls or no
02:05 PM CaptHindsight: she requested automatic, reliable with a little oomph
02:06 PM CaptHindsight: so only 2.5 the original HP
02:06 PM miss0r: you gotta love the US
02:06 PM CaptHindsight: should be good for 400,000 km
02:06 PM miss0r: 'round here you cannot give the car more than 20% more power without getting a new registration.
02:06 PM CaptHindsight: this is so old it is exempt
02:06 PM miss0r: and that is EXPENSIVE
02:07 PM miss0r: yeah, no such thing 'round here
02:07 PM miss0r: here it is more like pay or GTFO
02:08 PM CaptHindsight: will likely be similar here as it ets more electric and self driving
02:08 PM CaptHindsight: ets/gets
02:08 PM miss0r: I do not hope that for you
02:09 PM Vq: We have something similar in my country. The exceptions is older cars (veteranbil), which they changed the rules for recently IIRC.
02:09 PM CaptHindsight: bbl, have to catch a train
02:09 PM miss0r: cya
02:10 PM miss0r: Vq: Where is this? that sounds nordic
02:10 PM Vq: Sweden
02:10 PM miss0r: Yeah. I know a little about the swedish car rules. You can get away with alot more than we can on the other side of the pond
02:10 PM Vq: When I was younger there were some even weirder rules. If you made a car from scratch or rebuilt one enough you effectively had to build two. One to crash test.
02:10 PM miss0r: lol nice
02:11 PM Vq: It's more sensible now and I believe they decreased the age required for veteran car status.
02:11 PM miss0r: Here in denmark the cars need to be 35years to get veteran status
02:12 PM Vq: 30 years here now.
02:13 PM miss0r: The nicest thing about veteran status in Denmark is you only pay 1/4 of the taxes on it and it cna go 8 years between MOT(syn)
02:15 PM Vq: That's semi-new in Sweden as well. Lower taxes and you don't need to have the car inspected as often.
02:15 PM miss0r: the last part about the inspection does not make sense imo
02:16 PM miss0r: I mean. The car is already OLD.. so ah.. I don't know that I love that rule
02:16 PM miss0r: That might invite people to run something that is less than street legal
02:17 PM Vq: I guess the reasoning is that if you keep a car that old running you either know what you're doing and/or care enough about it to keep it safe.
02:18 PM Vq: And you still have to inspect it, it's just that it's once every two years instead of once every year.
02:18 PM miss0r: hehe
02:19 PM miss0r: Here in DK a factory new car can run for 4 years without an inspection the first time. Then after that its once every two years
02:19 PM miss0r: a veneran car can go 8 years without inspection
02:19 PM miss0r: Commercial trucks has to get inspected every year
02:19 PM Vq: I think it's 4 or 5 here in Sweden for a new car.
02:20 PM miss0r: now that I have a swede on the line: A friend of mine has a '65 volvo amazon
02:21 PM miss0r: and the vacuum displacement for the distributor is shot. Any idea where to go for a new one?
02:21 PM Vq: The rules was change recently for "normally" aged cars. I have to inspect my SAAB once every 14 month instead of 12 months as it used to be.
02:22 PM Vq: My goodness, I'm not really a car person and certainly not a Volvo person. (even though I currently work in what used to be the Volvo factory in Kalmar)
02:22 PM Vq: If it was a Volvo Tjorven it would have been here in Kalmar but other than that I have no idea.
02:23 PM miss0r: alright. Well, He will have to figure that one out for himself :)
02:25 PM roycroft: well that was a bust
02:25 PM Vq: I guess he'll have to, sorry.
02:25 PM roycroft: i couldn't find what i wanted, so i asked the hardware person if they had any 12-24 screws at all
02:26 PM roycroft: "i'm sorry, we don't, because that's not a real thread size. you must mean 1/4-28, or perhaps some metric size"
02:26 PM * roycroft had no idea he had been using non-existent fasteners for most of his life
02:27 PM roycroft: i guess it's mcmaster time
02:27 PM Vq: roycroft: Maybe you inherited some Japanese set of fasteners and never realised?
02:27 PM roycroft: because it's not lathe time
02:27 PM roycroft: not for this
02:28 PM roycroft: anyone who has ever worked in a data center or telco central office will confirm that 12-24 fasteners very much exist and are used daily
02:28 PM roycroft: in the usa, at least
02:28 PM roycroft: and probably canada
02:29 PM Vq: At least when I asked for a square-headed M7 bolt they didn't say it wasn't real...
02:30 PM roycroft: the sad thing is, folks at this store are actually trained for their deparment
02:30 PM roycroft: and usually have worked in the trades
02:30 PM roycroft: they still don't make much, but they're not just random people scooped up off the street
02:31 PM roycroft: there's a big difference between "we don't carry x" and "x does not exist"
02:33 PM roycroft: there's even a big difference between "i've never heard of x" and "x does not exist"
02:34 PM Vq: In my city in almost all actual "stores" they might very well be scooped off the street. (or newborn)
02:34 PM Vq: It's pretty bad, but at least I don't expect anything else at this point.
02:35 PM roycroft: yes, and that's the case with most retail stores around here, but the one i prefer to go to does have a higher grade of training/knowledge, generally
02:35 PM roycroft: it's a home center, though, geared towards homeowners and contractors
02:35 PM roycroft: most of my needs are outwith their general expertise
02:35 PM roycroft: i go there not for information, but because they have a better selection than the other local stores
02:36 PM roycroft: but i should be able to ask "do you have x?" and not get a snarky answer
02:37 PM roycroft: and i think that "x does not exist" is kind of snarky
02:37 PM Vq: In a store like that, yeah, you expect better.
02:38 PM roycroft: especially when it's wrong :)
02:38 PM Vq: There is a place in a neighbouring town (35km away) that specialises in nuts, bolts and such. It's all on order or over counter and you can't buy anything less than a package.
02:39 PM Vq: They also cooperate with some workshops that will manufacture bolts if needed.
02:39 PM roycroft: the thought crossed my mind that i could have said "sure it does - 10-17 screws also exist", gone home, turned a 10-17 thread screw on the lathe, and brought it back as proof
02:39 PM roycroft: but that would have been snarky on my part
02:39 PM roycroft: and a waste of time
02:40 PM Vq: You wrote that it wasn't lathe time yet, not that you wouldn't get there. ;)
02:40 PM roycroft: hence the waste of time bit
02:40 PM roycroft: mcmaster is a more effective use of my time than the lathe, even though it means waiting a few days
02:41 PM roycroft: and if i'm honest, the main reason i don't want to just order from mcmaster is becasue shipping on that one item would be too high, and i'll need time to put together a proper order if i'm to go that route
02:41 PM Rab: No excuse for an unprofessional answer, but 12-24 is a bit of a weirdo. I only unusually encounter it in telco racks, where it seems close enough to 10-24 to be dangerous. (Doesn't help that some racks actually are threaded for 10-24/10-32.)
02:41 PM roycroft: i've never seen 10-24 threads in a rack
02:41 PM roycroft: 10-32 is pretty common, but moreso for data center racks than telco racks
02:41 PM roycroft: 12-24 is the standard for telco racks
02:42 PM Rab: Then those are 12-24 racks I've misidentified. ;)
02:42 PM roycroft: and i would have been fine with "we don't carry that"
02:42 PM * Vq has no idea what any of those numbers mean.
02:42 PM Rab: #12 screw size, 24 threads per inch.
02:43 PM roycroft: in american customary units, small fastners below 1/4" (6.35mm) in diameter are given screw sizes, from #000 to #14
02:43 PM roycroft: a #14 screw is almost exactly 1/4" in diameter
02:43 PM roycroft: the second part is threads per inch
02:43 PM roycroft: i.e the inverse of a standard metric thread pitch
02:44 PM roycroft: a #14 screw is 0.24" in diameter
02:44 PM roycroft: a #12 is 0.21" in diameter
02:45 PM Vq: What size is a #000 ?
02:46 PM roycroft: really small
02:46 PM Vq: At least you Americans have that over the Romans, you do have a zero...
02:46 PM roycroft: i don't think i've ever used a screw smaller than a #2
02:48 PM roycroft: the formula is 0.060" + 0.130" x (numbered diameter)
02:48 PM roycroft: so a #0 would be 0.060", and i don't know what a #00 or a #000 would be
02:48 PM Vq: so, 0.06" then?
02:48 PM roycroft: i've seen those sizes on charts though
02:49 PM roycroft: well, 0.060"
02:49 PM roycroft: you dropped a significant digit
02:49 PM roycroft: but at least you put the 0 before the decimal point :)
02:50 PM Vq: I did, in my field I usually have something else to specify accuracy.
02:51 PM roycroft: screw number sizes are considered exact numbers, so you don't adjust for significant digits with them
02:52 PM * roycroft gets back to debugging an imap server
02:52 PM Vq: #000 isn't a number so much as a string of digits I guess.
02:52 PM roycroft: it's a label, in a sense
02:53 PM Rab: "We need something smaller than #00"
02:54 PM roycroft: i wonder if a #00 is 0.060" - 0.130", and if a #000 is 0.060" - 0.130" x2
02:54 PM Rab: McMaster-Carr has loads of #000 fasteners, surprisingly...their diagram for a 000-120 has a major diameter of 0.034".
02:55 PM roycroft: well, my guess may be correct
02:55 PM roycroft: a #00 screw is 0.060" - 0.013" = 0.047"
02:56 PM roycroft: and yes, a #000 is 0.060" - 0.013" x 2 - 0.034"
02:56 PM Vq: 1: 0.8636 mm
02:56 PM Rab: So cute! T1 torx drive. https://www.mcmaster.com/90910A310/
02:57 PM roycroft: i believe i said they are "really small" earlier
02:57 PM Vq: oops, didn't mean to paste that, Emacs did that.
02:57 PM roycroft: so i was correct then :)
02:57 PM * Vq is taking notes
03:34 PM jthornton: yea made it to Cypress Tx
04:01 PM skunkworks: we got fiber through our phone company so we have a redundent internet connection. Currently have it setup with load balancing in conjunction with our other isp.
04:02 PM skunkworks: I decided to try to vpn into our network with the fiber connection and couldn't. Figured it was a configuration error on my part. but after figuring out I couldn't even ping the ip address from outside of the company - there must have been a firewall of some kind between my hardware
04:03 PM Tom_L: jthornton, may as well go on to the beach :)
04:03 PM Tom_L: although there's that one little thing you gotta go thru first... Houston
04:04 PM skunkworks: After opening a ticket with lumen - they got back within a few hours saying - yes - the router did have the firewall activated for the internet connection and shouldn't have. (it should have been only for the phone servid)
04:04 PM skunkworks: I was expecting a fight - but Yay!
04:05 PM Tom_L: skunkworks, how's axis #4 going?
04:05 PM skunkworks: yes.
04:06 PM Tom_L: heh
04:06 PM skunkworks: (I was getting the parts together to add it to the green machine - but that is as far as i have gotten)
04:13 PM roycroft: wow
04:13 PM roycroft: mcmaster now calculate shipping in real time, before placing an order
04:13 PM roycroft: very nice
04:21 PM veegee: enleth excellent explanation, thank you!
04:22 PM veegee: enleth I really appreciate that
04:22 PM veegee: On the opposite end, you have idiot youtubers like this moron https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulnv_bfupk8 who think torque changes with the radius lol
04:29 PM veegee: enleth so for the traditional analog servo drivers, how does the tuning process work?
04:30 PM veegee: The new servo drivers that do the PID control loop on their own and have a step/dir interface all come with software for tuning the servo for the load characteristics of your application
04:30 PM Tom_L: increase P until it oscillates, back it off and add a little I
04:30 PM Tom_L: then maybe add D
04:30 PM veegee: Ok so potentiometers on the servo driver?
04:30 PM Tom_L: i'm not as familiar with the FF ones
04:31 PM veegee: Which means you have to tune it properly before you can expect LinuxCNC to properly control a traditional analog servo driver and do the PID feedback loop
04:31 PM Tom_L: unless linuxcnc is controlling it directly
04:33 PM veegee: Tom_L I'm assuming enleth's scenario with a traditional servo driver with analog velocity/torque inputs
04:34 PM Tom_L: i didn't read that
04:34 PM enleth: veegee: trimpots on the older units, digital configuration for newer ones
04:34 PM Tom_L: but probably so
04:36 PM enleth: yes, you need the velocity/torque PID tuned reasonably well before the "higher order" position PID can do anything well
04:36 PM veegee: enleth got it. This is fun, lots of new ideas to explore. I think I need to get myself a small servo and do some hands on tuning/testing
04:37 PM veegee: Maybe by mounting something to the shaft that presses against an air cylinder or spring to try and induce oscillation and see how it/I can compensate
04:37 PM enleth: and at the risk of repeating myself I'll add that the secret to understanding how a servo holds position is to realize that there is no difference between the actual position changing and the commanded position changing
04:38 PM enleth: in fact, those two are literally indistinguishable for the PID loop
04:38 PM enleth: it doesn't know and can't know
04:41 PM roycroft: i thought that servos, in essense, have no sense of position - they just turn on when you tell them to, and turn off when you tell them to, and you have to rely on an external encoder to track position
04:41 PM _unreal_: just purchased lightburn
04:41 PM _unreal_: downoading now
04:41 PM enleth: so it holds position the same way it follows commands
04:41 PM enleth: roycroft: there's a second PID on top of that, that handles position
04:41 PM roycroft: steppers, on the hand, make quantum-like movements and think they know of position, but may be wrong and have no way of knowing they're wrong
04:41 PM * roycroft may have an overly simplistic understanding of the differences
04:41 PM roycroft: the pid would be there to tell them to stop moving before it's too late
04:42 PM enleth: roycroft: it's a bit of a nomenclature/definition/philosophy issue
04:42 PM enleth: in a "traditional" servo system your servo drive does a velocity or torque PID and linuxcnc does a position PID
04:42 PM enleth: but formally, the latter is a part of the servo system as well
04:42 PM enleth: so the system has a sense of position, it must
04:43 PM roycroft: i try to reduce things to the simplest level possible to gain a conceptual undestanding, before delving into the gory details of actual implementation
04:43 PM enleth: even moreso then, conceptually, a servo knows its own position
04:43 PM enleth: it's the implementation that places one PID in the servo drive and another in the PC
04:44 PM enleth: at which point you might say that *the* servo doesn't know its position
04:44 PM roycroft: if you consider the servo pid and the servo motor together the "drive"
04:44 PM enleth: but without the position loop, it's useless
04:44 PM roycroft: yes
04:44 PM roycroft: i get that
04:44 PM enleth: that loop is a part of the servo system too
04:45 PM roycroft: again, being overly simplistic
04:45 PM roycroft: you tell a servo to go or to stop
04:45 PM roycroft: the motor itself, that is
04:45 PM roycroft: it spins until you stop it
04:45 PM roycroft: with a stepper you tell it how many steps to turn
04:45 PM enleth: and then you get those leadshine servos that emulate steppers and they do know their own position whichever way you look at it
04:45 PM roycroft: and it thinks it knows its position autonomously
04:46 PM roycroft: but if it misses a step it's wrong
04:46 PM roycroft: you assume a servo does not know where it is, so you have to use an encoder to keep track of that
04:47 PM enleth: I see a point of this way of putting it, but I'm not sure if it's conductive to understanding the technology
04:48 PM enleth: it's putting distinctions where they don't really matter
04:49 PM veegee: enleth "no difference between the actual position changing and the commanded position changing", Yup, understood
04:49 PM veegee: It was mostly that I didn't know anything about the topology of the traditional analog drives and who/what is responsible for the low level PID/high level PID and tuning
04:50 PM veegee: But I know the operating principles of steppers and motors on an electrical engineering level. Just didn't know how the whole system is arranged in modern systems
04:52 PM enleth: veegee: the usual procedure to tune this stuff is that you disconnect a motor from the load, connect the servo drive, turn loop gain (P term) down to zero and start increasing it until the system begins to oscillate, then back off a bit
04:52 PM enleth: I and D are then tuned with the load connected and under actual high level control
04:53 PM veegee: enleth excellent information, thanks! <3
04:54 PM enleth: most analog servo drive datasheets have a simplified tuning procedure chapter
04:54 PM Tom_L: doesn't D just help P get to setpoint quicker?
04:54 PM Tom_L: and I is the 'remainder'
04:54 PM enleth: it's enough to get stuff to move properly, just not to the absolute best of the system's capabilities
04:54 PM enleth: Tom_L: pretty much, but tuning it with no load is pointless
04:55 PM enleth: on the other hand, tuning P under load can be deadly
04:55 PM Tom_L: right
04:55 PM Tom_L: does the same hold true with a spindle where the load cometh and goeth?
04:57 PM enleth: Tom_L: the former part kinda still does, the latter fortunately shouldn't apply
04:58 PM veegee: Now, about closed loop steppers. Steppers don't miss steps unless you operate outside of their designed operating region. So do you really _need_ the encoder?
04:58 PM veegee: Now if I do have the encoder, I can feed that back into LinuxCNC directly via the mesa cards so it can be more aggressive with the motion for rapid and such right?
04:58 PM veegee: So it should correct for missed steps and what not
04:58 PM enleth: veegee: so, yeah, one other thing about traditional servo systems, *especially* the ones with analog inputs, is that you can screw things up so badly through miswiring or misconfiguration that the system will go full chooch ahead through the nearest wall and into the sunset
04:59 PM veegee: enleth yeah for sure, I always have limit switches wired to emergency stops
04:59 PM enleth: all it takes os swapped polarity on the analog line
04:59 PM enleth: or, worse, swapped polarity on a tacho if the motor has one
04:59 PM veegee: E stop and limits are the first thing I wire before even mounting the motor
04:59 PM enleth: and the more it tries to stop the motor, the more it thinks it's speeding up in the wrong direction
05:00 PM enleth: so it adds more power to stop it, thus speeding it up
05:00 PM sync: veegee: there is no difference between a motor 70 years ago to one nowadays
05:00 PM veegee: sync yeah haha I know
05:00 PM veegee: well alloy composition
05:00 PM veegee: squirrel cage design, but not by much
05:01 PM sync: asyncs have never changed a lot
05:01 PM veegee: quality of rare earth magnets
05:01 PM veegee: enleth is there any downside to using a _huge_ stepper like this? https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-42/nema42-hybrid-stepper-motor-4230-oz-kl42h2201-80-4a
05:01 PM veegee: 4230 oz•in holding torque
05:01 PM sync: steppers have seen some development, they have added a reluctance motor
05:01 PM veegee: yeah these are hybrid steppers with a reluctance component
05:01 PM veegee: but only the big ones seem to do that. The smaller cheap ones are same old same old
05:01 PM enleth: sync: I'd say one important problem is the older ones can be unsuitable for use with VFDs, but that's about it, I think
05:02 PM veegee: enleth only if it's a shitty VFD with low frequency PWM and the winding insulation isn't rated for the voltage spikes
05:02 PM veegee: can compensate for that with inductors "line reactors"
05:03 PM enleth: I think there was also an issue of high frequency harmonics heating up the rotor in old motors
05:03 PM veegee: I have transformers on the outputs of my VFDs anyway so that adds plenty of inductance
05:03 PM veegee: yeah transformers/inductors on the output fix that
05:03 PM enleth: basically, the thing turning into an induction hob
05:03 PM roycroft: if you're talking about motors in general, one issue with fan-cooled motors and vfds is that if the fan is diven by the motor, it can overheat when the motor is running at low frequency/speed
05:03 PM veegee: roycroft only at high current
05:03 PM veegee: if the load is low, the current is low and there's no issue
05:03 PM enleth: veegee: ok, right, that can be worked around
05:03 PM veegee: roycroft I do it all the time
05:04 PM sync: veegee: no, all steppers do that now
05:04 PM enleth: still, you have to be aware that the problem might be a lot worse with an old motor and absolutely must be mitigated
05:04 PM veegee: sync really? didn't know
05:04 PM Tom_L: enleth, my spindle works "ok" but i'd like to get it better one of these days
05:04 PM roycroft: some of the inverter-rated motors have fans that run independently to the motor speed so that there is always plenty of air moving
05:04 PM veegee: so people are saying for some reason not to use huge ass steppers like this https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-42/nema42-hybrid-stepper-motor-4230-oz-kl42h2201-80-4a
05:04 PM veegee: but I have no idea why, what's the possible downside?
05:04 PM veegee: high inertia?
05:05 PM veegee: assuming the driver can handle the current, why wouldn't I overside my stepper for my 5,500 lb vertical mill Z axis
05:05 PM veegee: roycroft but mainly "inverter duty" means high quality insulation on the windings
05:06 PM veegee: in practice, I've had zero issues with 50 year old induction motors on my VFDs. But again, due to having 240V VFDs and 600V motors, I have to use transformers on the output of the VFD, so that mitigates a lot of high frequency ripple current
05:07 PM veegee: and the VFDs are very modern with torque vector control and a lot of current limiting and and all that. Their low speed stability is utterly impressive. Motor stays at room temperature
05:07 PM veegee: Yes I'm talking about the Huanyang GT series VFDs. I'm so glad there are nutting-wong type VFDs
05:09 PM enleth: veegee: one more fun fact: there's not that much of a difference between a VFD and an AC servo drive and it's mostly in a smarter control system that makes sure the synchronous motor is kept synchronized
05:12 PM enleth: almost any AC servo drive could be just a firmware update away from being a perfectly normal VFD, many can be coerced to work as VFDs as-is if they're not too smart so they'll error out becouse the motor is not reacting quite how they expect
05:12 PM enleth: *because
05:15 PM veegee: enleth Yup, I know, they're both 3 phase AC drives
05:15 PM enleth: and don't even get me started on the stupid misnomer that is "BLDC"
05:15 PM veegee: The traditional analog ones you mention will probably work just fine
05:16 PM veegee: enleth what about BLDC?
05:16 PM veegee: BLDC is the same as brushed DC but commutation is electronic
05:16 PM enleth: "brushless DC motors" are AC motors
05:16 PM enleth: just not "that" AC
05:16 PM veegee: NOOOOO!!!!!!
05:16 PM veegee: YESSSS
05:16 PM veegee: but also NOOOOO
05:17 PM veegee: brushless DC is exactly the same as brushed DC but commutation is electronic
05:17 PM veegee: there's literally no other difference
05:17 PM veegee: you can feed it a square signal the same as a brushed DC motor would receive
05:17 PM veegee: there are just far fewer poles
05:17 PM veegee: You don't _need_ a sine wave
05:17 PM veegee: You can modify a BLDC by adding contacts on the shaft and convert it into an equivalent brushed DC motor
05:17 PM Tom_L: but why?
05:18 PM veegee: I've done literally that to prove to a friend that they're the exact same operating principle
05:18 PM veegee: Purely to prove to people that BLDC is not an AC motor
05:18 PM veegee: it has nothing in common with an AC induction motor or a synchronous PM ac motor
05:19 PM veegee: BLDC == brushed DC with a high tech electronic commutation.
05:19 PM enleth: eh, OK, there's "the real BLDC" motor type that really is BLDC, and then there's a bazillion types of PM AC motors that are being called "BLDC" for some reason
05:19 PM veegee: enleth ^ yeah those are not BLDC
05:19 PM enleth: I'm annoyed by the latter
05:19 PM veegee: those are actually PM AC
05:20 PM Tom_L: how do you tell the difference?
05:20 PM XXCoder: jt isnt in?
05:20 PM roycroft: he is in
05:20 PM roycroft: but he
05:20 PM Tom_L: damn there are just too many types of motors
05:20 PM roycroft: is in texas
05:20 PM veegee: Tom_L that makes life worth living
05:20 PM roycroft: it depends on what the meaning of the word "in" is
05:20 PM veegee: switched reluctance is on my next-to-study list
05:20 PM XXCoder: roycroft: yeah texas is famously known for not having internet lol
05:21 PM XXCoder: probably either enroute or working
05:21 PM Tom_L: last he checked in he was just N of houston
05:22 PM Tom_L: Cypress
05:22 PM enleth: studying specialized types of motors is a bit like studying refrigeration systems - the principles of operation are simple, but then you look at the thing and there's those weird shapes and squiggles of stuff that look completely random, yet turn out to be absolutely critical for reliable and efficient operation
05:24 PM Tom_L: enleth, starting is starting P off at 1 'neutral' ?
05:24 PM veegee: Tom_L the differences between BLDC and PM AC is usually the back EMF shape (trapezoidal for BLDC, sinusoidal for PM AC). And the type of control you use is very different.
05:24 PM XXCoder: tom cool. :) hope he enjoys his vacation
05:24 PM veegee: You don't just start up a BLDC by plugging it into a 3 phase power source.
05:25 PM Tom_L: aww why not?
05:25 PM veegee: PM AC also usually have a small "induction motor" component so they can start from 3 phase line power
05:25 PM enleth: "is that pipe over there bent into this funny shape just because someone needed it to double down on itself to make it fit, or is that crucial to the oil mist return rate?" - "is that thicker wire over there folded over just because, or is that strictly needed to shape the magnetic field?"
05:25 PM veegee: Tom_L because it's not synchronized to the position of the magnets
05:25 PM veegee: That's the whole point of commutation
05:25 PM veegee: To turn on the electromagnets based on the position of the permanent magnets
05:25 PM veegee: in brushed motors, that's mechanical
05:26 PM veegee: in BLDC, it's with sensors
05:26 PM Tom_L: hall?
05:26 PM veegee: yes
05:26 PM veegee: there are sensorless BLDC drivers, but they suck at low speed
05:26 PM enleth: ... and in indudction motors, it happens by itself because induction
05:26 PM veegee: ^ yes
05:26 PM veegee: and again, PM AC usually have an induction motor component just to get it started
05:26 PM veegee: after that, it locks to line frequency
05:27 PM veegee: Other differences include shapes of the magnets, rotors, slots, windings, etc.
05:28 PM veegee: Operating principle is similar, but not exactly the same
05:28 PM enleth: Tom_L: no, you start at 0 and go up from there
05:28 PM Tom_L: ok
05:28 PM Tom_L: same with D?
05:28 PM enleth: yep
05:28 PM Tom_L: what exactly do FF0 and FF1 do?
05:29 PM veegee: hobby RC motors are low "KV" BLDC motors. Very high speed and high power density and pretty cheap. The sensored ones for big RC planes are monsters
05:29 PM veegee: As AvE would say "100 horsepower in the palm of your dirty dickbeater"
05:30 PM veegee: (when referencing a variable piston pump, but also applies here)
05:31 PM enleth: Tom_L: that's a feed-forward feature, you can use it to make PID "predict" the error it'll be dealing with in the upcoming cycles
05:32 PM Tom_L: i'm mostly using those for the analog out to my vfd on the spindle
05:32 PM Tom_L: and a littel I gain
05:32 PM Tom_L: i tried several things and that seemed best during my initial setup
05:32 PM veegee: CaptHindsight any chance your friend at automation technologies can give me a small non profit discount?
05:33 PM veegee: My workshop is entirely for educational/non profit use and machinery and equipment adds up haha
05:33 PM enleth: Tom_L: using FF breaks the "PID only knows difference between actual and commanded" rule of sorts
05:33 PM veegee: I badly need to buy some steppers and servos and encoders from his store
05:33 PM enleth: Tom_L: because it uses the commanded value directly
05:34 PM enleth: Tom_L: so knowing the nature of the system your controlling and the purpose of commands issued, you can preemptively act on the commanded value
05:34 PM veegee: CaptHindsight you can tell him I can overhaul his website in a nice way (it seriously needs an overhaul). Products miscategorized, can't find specific parts via search, etc.
05:34 PM veegee: I shudder to think about the import taxes I'll have to pay
05:36 PM enleth: Tom_L: or, looking at it a different way, you can set up PID to know and utilize the difference between real and commanded position changes
05:36 PM enleth: veegee: ^ this is where the "rule" I stated earlier breaks
05:37 PM enleth: some would say a feed-forward PID is "not a pure PID", I guess
05:37 PM veegee: enleth sorry, didn't follow the specific issue you guys were talking about
05:37 PM veegee: When does it break?
05:37 PM enleth: veegee: a PID can, indeed, know the difference between commanded positon change and actual position change
05:37 PM enleth: linuxcnc supports this
05:38 PM veegee: So it knows if an external force pushed it vs the servo drive moving it?
05:38 PM enleth: if you use FF0/1/2 parameters, it'll be a "pure" PID when counteracting external forces
05:38 PM enleth: but it'll be "enhanced" when acting on commands
05:38 PM veegee: I'm guessing by sensing back EMF?
05:39 PM enleth: no, that's completely unrelated
05:39 PM enleth: how exactly it knows the shaft moved is irrelevant
05:39 PM veegee: Then which part of the hardware would it need to look at to know the difference
05:39 PM enleth: some systems do in fact use the motor itself as its own resolver
05:39 PM enleth: some need an external encoder or resolver
05:40 PM enleth: but it doesn't matter at the PID level
05:40 PM enleth: what matters is that feed-forward uses the actual commaned position change
05:40 PM enleth: *commanded
05:41 PM Tom_L: the vfd only has P and I to work with
05:42 PM enleth: ok, I'm back to fishing wire through walls, I need to get some wiring done today
05:43 PM Tom_L: enleth, if you listen at the end of this for the .250 drill you can hear the spindle nearly stall: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuVlVK4ChKA
05:43 PM Tom_L: i'm trying to get it to recover a little quicker
06:02 PM Bleepshop: Tom_L: Need to play with your spindle speed and maybe tweak it some for that last hole.
06:04 PM Bleepshop: Either that or while you've got the pin drill in there throw a pilot hole for that 0.25
06:08 PM Tom_L: the point it, the spindle should handle it anyway
06:08 PM Tom_L: s/it/is
06:10 PM Tom_L: it doesn't take 1.2 kw chinawatts to drill a .250 hole
06:11 PM JavaBean: have you seen how slowly that 1.2kw spindle turns? you could probably drill it faster by hand turning the drillbit
06:11 PM Tom_L: what? you think it should be spinning faster?
06:12 PM JavaBean: no no, but it is trying to move about 100lbs of chinesium where maybe 3ounces of steel would do
06:13 PM Tom_L: i lost you in translation
06:14 PM JavaBean: you said it doesnt take 1.2kchinawatts to drill a .250 hole. i was pointing out that it takes 1.2kchinawatts to get the 100lbs of chinesium spindle to move
06:15 PM Tom_L: wouldn't that have more to do with the Z axis servo?
06:15 PM Tom_L: stepper
06:16 PM JavaBean: hmm must have missread, i thought you were talking 1.2kchinawatt spindle. sorry
06:16 PM Tom_L: what size spindle comes on a tormach? i've watched yt of them and the spindle recovers very quick
06:16 PM Tom_L: i was talking about the drill bogging the spindle down yes
06:17 PM Tom_L: i'm just trying to learn how to improve on what i already have
06:19 PM JavaBean: not sure, i am no where near as knowledgeable as E, V, or even B that you were talking to a lil bit ago
06:19 PM Tom_L: i did change the ramp up time on the vfd from 6000 to 20000 (0-60000 range) and that helped quite a bit
06:31 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, latest upgrade "lightburn
07:02 PM CaptHindsight: veegee: he's from China, you just buy now, OK
07:03 PM CaptHindsight: Everyone just buy now, OK!
07:03 PM drdoc: done!
07:05 PM drdoc: Seriously. Just finished spending way too much on tools & materials
07:05 PM Tom_L: you still don't have enough
07:05 PM XXCoder: lol
07:05 PM drdoc: no chinesium involved, though
07:06 PM drdoc: Tom_L: that was never the intent
07:06 PM XXCoder: as soon as you have enough, you dont have enough
07:06 PM drdoc: that state of being is a myth
08:12 PM roycroft: so i ask again, why would i want to subscribe to amazon prime?
08:12 PM roycroft: i placed an order a half hour ago, with free super-saver shipping
08:12 PM roycroft: and it is scheduled for delivery tomorrow
08:13 PM roycroft: amazone prime would have delivered it on sunday
08:13 PM * roycroft is trying to understand the benefit of prime, but continues to fail
08:13 PM XXCoder: it depends on where you are'
08:14 PM XXCoder: i live near major international port
08:14 PM XXCoder: so packages get to me pretty quickly
08:14 PM roycroft: and yeah, i get the "prime lets me give amazon free money for nothing" part
08:14 PM roycroft: but i'm not sure how the benefits me
08:14 PM XXCoder: though packages is bit slow, here DESPERATELT needs semi drivers
08:16 PM roycroft: the eugene airport is not international
08:16 PM roycroft: the nearest international airport is pdx, 2 hours away from here
08:16 PM XXCoder: yeah thats "near" compared to most of usa
08:17 PM roycroft: well
08:17 PM roycroft: most of the usa geographically
08:17 PM roycroft: i'm not sure that's the case for most of the usa by population
08:18 PM roycroft: casper wyoming is way more than 2 hours from an international airport, but only 17 people live there :)
08:18 PM XXCoder: lol
08:19 PM XXCoder: major international postage if i remember right is pdx and seattle
08:19 PM XXCoder: for west
08:19 PM XXCoder: east i dont know, though im pretty sure nyc is
08:20 PM roycroft: for the northwet
08:20 PM roycroft: and then sfo and lax in california
08:22 PM roycroft: bellingham, port townsand, and spokane are also international
08:45 PM XXCoder: cool
08:51 PM sync: roycroft: most of the time it's actually cheaper to use prime depending on the product, at least where I am
09:09 PM roycroft: i have a business account with amazon, which is a lot cheaper than the regular consumer accounts for many things
09:09 PM roycroft: i haven't priced anything with business prime, since i don't have it
09:09 PM roycroft: i'm not one to pay annual fees and the like generally, but when it can be demonstrated to me that it saves me money, i don't mind
09:10 PM roycroft: for example, i have an american express card with a $90 annual fee
09:10 PM XXCoder: nice
09:10 PM roycroft: it's the only credit card i have with an annual fee
09:10 PM roycroft: but i get 6% cash back on groceries
09:11 PM roycroft: i get about $400/year in cash back using that card
09:11 PM roycroft: so the $90 fee is a no-brainer
09:11 PM roycroft: if amazon were to demonstrate to me that business prime would save me money i'd consider it
09:11 PM roycroft: but they don't even try that
09:12 PM roycroft: they just push it as fast shipping and other perks like their streaming service
09:12 PM roycroft: the only attempt they try to make about saving money is the free 2 day shipping
09:12 PM roycroft: but since i use their free super-saving shipping for everything already that's not a perk
09:13 PM roycroft: i have never once, in all the years i've used amazon, paid for shipping on things shipped by amazon
09:13 PM roycroft: and i've rarely paid shipping for amazon marketplace products, which are not eligible for their free 2 day shipping
09:13 PM XXCoder: it used to be where they paid for shipping even if not buy from them, if on amazon site
09:13 PM XXCoder: but they stopped that
09:14 PM roycroft: it used to take 3 weeks to a month to get things with their free super saver shippign
09:14 PM XXCoder: wild guess, there was scams
09:14 PM roycroft: now it takes a day or two
09:14 PM roycroft: so i just don't see why i should pay for prime
09:14 PM JavaBean: for me, amazon free shipping takes about a week to a week and a half
09:16 PM roycroft: well that's the other thign
09:16 PM roycroft: even though they've been shipping really fast these days, it doesn't matter
09:16 PM roycroft: i ordered a table saw insert today for a blade that's going to arrive in a week or so, and some casters for a cart that i'm not going to start building for a couple weeks
09:17 PM roycroft: it's nice that that stuff will show up tomorrow, but it's just going to sit around until i'm ready for it
09:17 PM roycroft: i guess prime is good for people who can't plan ahead for things
09:17 PM roycroft: or people who have lots of emergencies
09:18 PM roycroft: i put projects on my schedule, and order things to arrive in time to work on the project
09:18 PM JavaBean: i just find it odd that the free shipping i see is so different from what you see
09:18 PM XXCoder: roy that or unexpected
09:18 PM roycroft: i think they have a big warehouse near me
09:19 PM JavaBean: might be... they are building one near me though
09:19 PM roycroft: i ordered a disc sander last weekend, with a promised delivery date of 30 may
09:19 PM roycroft: it showed up on tuesday
09:21 PM roycroft: now the negative aspect of this is that they're shipping so fast now that if i want to modify an order it's usually too late
09:21 PM roycroft: i.e. if i order something, and then need some other small item shortly thereafter
09:22 PM roycroft: i used to be able to cancel the original order, reorder ,and add the additional item
09:22 PM roycroft: now it's too late much of the time to do that
09:22 PM roycroft: so the additional item has to wait until i have $25 worth of stuff to order
09:22 PM roycroft: and with prime that's not an issue at all, so that could be an advantage
09:23 PM roycroft: but if i really need the item, i usually have enough things stored in my list to pad out to $25
09:27 PM roycroft: i think what was happening is that they paid a flat rate per container for shipping, and the free super-save stuff would be held until there was room in a container of paid shipping items
09:27 PM roycroft: so it really was free for them to ship it
09:27 PM roycroft: but now that they're relying on their own logistics for delivery a lot more, they don't send containers to usps or ups so much
09:28 PM roycroft: and if their truck is driving through eugene, and there's room, my "free" stuff goes on the truck
09:28 PM roycroft: as they shift more and more to their own logistics, the free super-saver stuff may start taking longer again
09:29 PM roycroft: at least that's my guess
09:29 PM roycroft: and countless are the times i've been wrong
09:42 PM jthornton: yo
09:43 PM XXCoder: welcome back, traveler
09:44 PM jthornton: just getting back from a dinner at my daughters place
09:46 PM XXCoder: how was day
09:53 PM roycroft: my county is now at 61.9% vaccination rate for 16+
09:54 PM roycroft: when we get to 65% we'll moved to "extreme low risk" permanantly
09:54 PM roycroft: permanently
09:54 PM roycroft: that last 4.1% may be pretty difficult though
09:55 PM roycroft: but we were just over 50% last friday, so we've made significant progress
09:55 PM * roycroft really wants this pandemic to be over
09:56 PM XXCoder: roy amazing
09:56 PM XXCoder: how do you get that stat tho curious about mine
09:58 PM roycroft: i get an email from the lane county public health department every week
09:59 PM XXCoder: oh nice
09:59 PM roycroft: i think i'm going to try to make a campground reservating for july or august
09:59 PM XXCoder: <18 4,924 3.4%
09:59 PM XXCoder: 18-29 16,551 31.8%
09:59 PM XXCoder: 30-49 38,241 44.0%
09:59 PM XXCoder: 50-64 19,287 54.2%
09:59 PM roycroft: i am pretty sure it will be safe and permissible to camp by then
09:59 PM XXCoder: not quite as good as yours but not too bad
09:59 PM roycroft: you've a ways to go
09:59 PM roycroft: but your county has a much higher percentage of people of color than mine
09:59 PM XXCoder: yeah
10:00 PM XXCoder: does that affect anything?
10:00 PM roycroft: yes, it does
10:00 PM roycroft: a big difference
10:01 PM roycroft: there's both a cultural hesitancy, and an opportunity difference
10:03 PM roycroft: otoh, yours is a more urban county than mine, and the vaccination rate is generally higher in urban areas than rural areas
10:04 PM roycroft: in part, but not only, due to opportunity differences
10:04 PM XXCoder: ok
10:05 PM XXCoder: i literally called the day to go get shot, on both times
10:05 PM XXCoder: so it should be really easy to get em
10:06 PM roycroft: yes, where you live
10:06 PM roycroft: but if you lived 25 miles away, there may not have been any clinics nearby
10:07 PM roycroft: i'm not saying i have any real understanding of the logistics in your county
10:07 PM roycroft: i'm just discussing generalizations
10:07 PM XXCoder: yeah. buses seem good but then i havent needed em for while now
10:08 PM roycroft: if you can walk or drive or bike a couple miles to a clinic, that's way different to riding a bus 25 miles to a clinic
10:08 PM XXCoder: i didnt go to clinic though?
10:09 PM roycroft: and if you have a job and can't get off work for a couple hours or can't afford to take a couple hours off to get a vaccine, that's an issue
10:09 PM XXCoder: indeed, though like i menioned you can even walk in without calling
10:10 PM XXCoder: call is just to ensure i dont waste time
10:10 PM roycroft: we have drive-through vaccination clinics that operate on weekends
10:10 PM roycroft: i don't know if you do
10:10 PM XXCoder: not drive though, but not clinic either
10:10 PM XXCoder: its just set whatever space is aviliable
10:11 PM XXCoder: so we go in, sign name, get shot, then sit for 15 minutes
10:11 PM XXCoder: then go
10:11 PM XXCoder: really, tacoma worked very hard to make it super easy ans free
10:12 PM aaron_ is now known as aaroncnc
10:12 PM roycroft: tacoma or pierce county?
10:12 PM aaroncnc: anyone familiar with tkinter and axis?
10:12 PM XXCoder: umm not sure LOL
10:12 PM roycroft: and it's free everywhere
10:13 PM XXCoder: yeah, I meant visit and such
10:13 PM XXCoder: i know vaccine itself is free
10:13 PM roycroft: i ask because i would bet that the tacoma numbers are higher than the pierce county numbers
10:14 PM XXCoder: possibly. we was hit pretty hard as seattle is orginal start of plague
10:14 PM XXCoder: (for usa)
10:14 PM roycroft: well, snohomoish county, i think was the beginning of it in washington
10:14 PM roycroft: but king county followed right after
10:15 PM XXCoder: yeah, then ny got it and boy was it hard
10:15 PM XXCoder: being a MUCH bigger city, it overtook seattle easily
10:15 PM roycroft: and it came to washington and new york from europe
10:15 PM roycroft: not china
10:15 PM roycroft: it got to europe from china
10:16 PM XXCoder: yeah im not saying anything about outside to usa
10:16 PM XXCoder: just order of major spreads in usa
10:16 PM roycroft: iirc it was a nursing home outside of everett where things got started in the usa
10:17 PM XXCoder: it sucks.
10:17 PM roycroft: yeah
10:17 PM roycroft: but life happens
10:17 PM XXCoder: apparently it was around million cases if you include above average unknown deaths
10:17 PM XXCoder: *deaths'
10:17 PM roycroft: it's not about what happens
10:17 PM roycroft: it's about how folks deal with what happens
10:18 PM XXCoder: yeah
10:18 PM XXCoder: i find it sad when people choose ignorance and refuse to vaccine
10:19 PM roycroft: it's even worse now
10:19 PM roycroft: people are forging vaccine cards
10:20 PM XXCoder: yeah read about that
11:25 PM veegee: I have no idea how this happened, but I ruined the lead screw/brass nut in my tail stock feed
11:25 PM veegee: Before yesterday it was so incredibly smooth. Like you could spin the hand wheel and would turn on its own for a few seconds like it was gliding on oil
11:25 PM veegee: Then today I have no idea why, but it seized up
11:26 PM veegee: I ended up disassembling the entire tailstock, honing the surfaces, cleaning gunk, etc. Everything was fine
11:26 PM veegee: Sure enough, the brass nut feels super tight on the acme screw. It's tighter on some parts than others
11:27 PM veegee: I cleaned the screw and nut thoroughly and made sure there was no debris and it's a tiny bit better, but it's still super tight
11:28 PM veegee: Any idea what could have caused this? I keep my machines super clean and coat slide ways in clean oil daily, oil all the oil ports with my custom oil injector, etc.
11:28 PM veegee: This is the first time something like this has happened. How is this even possible?
11:29 PM Tom_L: somebody jam the tailstock against something?
11:29 PM veegee: It could be worse, at least the "damaged" parts are easy to replace or even machine them myself, but what the hell!?
11:30 PM veegee: Tom_L the only thing I can think of is using a wedge to change the live center to a drill chuck attachment
11:30 PM veegee: You hit those with a hammer right? I do it very gently, never had an issue before
11:30 PM Tom_L: i back mine out with the tailstock feed
11:30 PM veegee: I don't know what they're called, it's the little wedge tool that you use to eject a morse taper end
11:31 PM Tom_L: i don't have one of those on mine
11:31 PM veegee: Tom_L yeah I do that too, but in this case, one of my attachments isn't long enough to hit the end
11:31 PM veegee: most of mine can be ejected by retracting the feed all the way
11:31 PM veegee: But the morse taper on one of my tools is not long enough to eject that way
11:32 PM veegee: That one needs a wedge tool
11:32 PM Tom_L: that's all i can think of
11:33 PM veegee: You think that could have deformed the brass nut?
11:33 PM Tom_L: hard to say when you really don't know the cause but anything is possible
11:33 PM veegee: Maybe I should rethread the nut
11:33 PM Tom_L: clearly something did
11:34 PM veegee: I don't care about backlash since it has a lock
11:34 PM veegee: I took the opportunity to hone the surface with an oil stone (which I first resurfaced with a diamond lapping plate) and damn, that really does make a difference
11:35 PM veegee: The bottom of the tailstock which slides on the slide ways, that is
11:36 PM veegee: Hmm now that I think about it, it gets a lot tighter to turn when fully extended which makes sense because the acme screw is usually far less worn at the extreme far end
11:36 PM veegee: So yeah the nut is probably damaged
11:37 PM veegee: Well at least brass is easy to machine. Now I just have to figure out the thread size and make a small thread cutting tool and hope the lathe has a feed rate for their own nut lol
11:39 PM Tom_L: acme thread?
11:40 PM veegee: CaptHindsight I bai nao but I hav many question about dis wun: https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/ethercat-stepper-driver/ethercat-servo-motor-kit-750w-110vac
11:40 PM veegee: CaptHindsight maybe he answer email?
11:40 PM veegee: Tom_L yeah it's acme
11:41 PM veegee: CaptHindsight I need to first make sure the EtherCAT model of that servo drive also accepts the step/dir digital input like the cheaper non EtherCAT model. I want to get the EtherCAT model because I plan to use EtherCAT in the future