#linuxcnc Logs

Apr 19 2021

01:31 AM Deejay: moin
04:08 AM Tom_L: morning
04:12 AM drdoc: hola
04:12 AM XXCoder: hellow
04:12 AM drdoc: can't sleep
04:13 AM drdoc: clowns will eat me
04:14 AM XXCoder: dunno, dont clowns taste funny?
04:14 AM drdoc: wouldn't know
04:14 AM drdoc: my power supplies came yesterday, and I found pinouts to control fan speed and
04:14 AM drdoc: allow load sharing
04:16 AM drdoc: I picked up 2 in case I blow one up findong the switch
04:16 AM drdoc: finding
05:57 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:02 AM JT-Cave: morning
07:28 AM Centurion-Dan2 is now known as Centurion_Dan
09:31 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
10:51 AM Eric__: XXCoder, what's up?
10:54 AM Eric__: I hate to tell the guy on the MK mailing list about the local company using an arduino to drive a high speed laser scanner
10:54 AM Eric__: I guess some people need an arduino, some people need an fpga
11:00 AM drdoc: AVR are very-well suited to robotics
11:01 AM drdoc: as long as there's an upstream unit doing the math
11:02 AM Rab: Wonder if the scanner is bound at all by Arduino library overhead.
11:04 AM Rab: A friend of mine was tasked with refactoring a prototype ECU with an Arduino core to straight C. It didn't leave him impressed with Arduino as a commercial prototyping platform.
11:05 AM Rab: But at least the hardware didn't have to change (custom PCB with some kind of ATmega having lots of I/O).
11:12 AM drdoc: Rab: If the pinout info I found last night is correct, I'm gonna need that 240V circuit
11:12 AM enleth: drdoc: there's nothing *wrong* with them and they had been a fine choice for two decades or so, but nowadays, small ARM-based uCs can be cheaper, more energy efficient and vastly more powerful all at the same time
11:12 AM drdoc: true fact
11:12 AM enleth: it would benefit everyone if focus moved over from AVR to things like STM32F0
11:12 AM drdoc: it is, ever so slowly
11:13 AM Rab: #avr is mostly occupied with STM32 these days. ;)
11:13 AM drdoc: the bad thing is that all the hobby folk insist on using Arduino's IDE to work with them
11:13 AM enleth: F0 can do everything an AVR can, while doing 90% of the math that had to be offloaded, at 1/10th of the power and 1/4 of the per-unit cost
11:13 AM enleth: the sheer fact that they're so much cheaper is, frankly, astonishing
11:14 AM drdoc: you don't have to convince me - I have 3 running and several more in the bag
11:14 AM Rab: enleth, everything is a strong word, especially when applied to 5V-tolerant I/O. Those are niche applications, but still.
11:14 AM enleth: Rab: ok, that is a valid point in some use cases
11:16 AM drdoc: Rab: those server PSUs are made to load-share in parallel - 2kW 48VDC and ~750W 12VDC with 240V in
11:17 AM drdoc: enleth: my 3D printer went to 32-bit SAM a couple of years ago
11:17 AM drdoc: all my avr are doing stuff like controlling filament dryers
11:18 AM Rab: drdoc, that sounds good! Does your panel have 240 in, at least?
11:19 AM drdoc: I'll be pulling the cover tonight
11:19 AM drdoc: the main box is on the outer garage wall, so worst case I'd need an extinction cord
11:20 AM drdoc: I have all the parts & pieces for an L6 twistlok outlet and mating plug, except the wire
11:21 AM drdoc: which will hurt, if I need 20ft
11:21 AM Eric__: I was looking at circuit python last night. Seems like it can be very useful.
11:22 AM Eric__: I'm holding out for rust on arduino though
11:24 AM drdoc: the nice part is that this whole power setup will end up at about $100, including breaker & [short] power cable
11:24 AM drdoc: Eric__: rust???
11:24 AM drdoc: why?
11:25 AM Eric__: :)
11:26 AM Eric__: python is good for this purpose. Basic would be too, really
11:26 AM Eric__: Not cobol though
11:26 AM drdoc: fortran, baybee
11:27 AM drdoc: actually fortran would be a decent fit
11:28 AM drdoc: Rab: need a NOS "retro" ATX box?
11:29 AM drdoc: I picked up some Antec towers cheap
11:29 AM enleth: rust is supposedly well-suited for embedded - can't say from personal experience but I know one rust dev who tried it on embedded and said it was a good experience
11:29 AM drdoc: huh. That's intersting
11:29 AM drdoc: *interesting
11:31 AM enleth: memory safety, reference checking/protection, concurrent access protections, etc. are first-class features of the language itself
11:31 AM enleth: but it doesn't need a garbage collector and allows explicit free
11:32 AM Eric__: I think it would be good for lots of things. Unfortunately there are very few good rust guis. Not that it matters much in embedded
11:33 AM enleth: most memory safe languages are GC-based and thus completely unsuitable for embedded (except weirdo cases like CLDC Java that runs on 8051 CPUs in smart cards - no GC, no dynamic allocation)
11:33 AM enleth: I think the only comparable language before rust was ada, but it's ancient
11:34 AM enleth: mostly ever used in aerospace engineering for programming avionics, FADECs, etc., because of the safety guarantees it brings
11:34 AM drdoc: right
11:34 AM drdoc: I guess I assumed that'd make it to "heavy" for embedded
11:35 AM Eric__: probably not too heavy for an arm
11:35 AM enleth: I guess it's appropriate to think of rust as something like a modern alternative to ada
11:35 AM Eric__: if people did that it would kill it
11:36 AM enleth: that is, if you already know that ada exists and are looking for something less obscure
11:36 AM enleth: otherwise, it's hard to compare it to anything really
11:37 AM drdoc: that ain't a bad thing
11:37 AM Eric__: circuit python looks really nice because there is not a lot of mental load needed to get up to speed
11:38 AM Eric__: I doubt you could run an xy stage at 750 ipm like you can with an arduino
11:38 AM enleth: Eric__: for GUIs, you really want to split the program into backend and frontend, set up something like ZQM between them and do message passing
11:39 AM Eric__: yeah, but it would be nice to have the memory protection of rust for your gui
11:39 AM enleth: *ZMQ
11:39 AM Eric__: I probably mess up my pointers more in my gui than in my hardware related code
11:40 AM enleth: fair point
11:40 AM enleth: though you can use a higher level language for the gui if it's decoupled
11:40 AM Eric__: I'm going to try to rewrite one of my programs in rust
11:41 AM Eric__: the thing is with gui libraries there are probably some stray pointers and buffer overrun code waiting to happen
11:42 AM Eric__: But I guess it would be easier to replace if decoupled
11:42 AM Eric__: that's what I was thinking about doing anyway, decoupling them.
12:00 PM CaptHindsight: ZeroMQ vs DDS, ROS chose DDS, don't know why
12:02 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.rti.com/blog/2017/04/20/why-would-anyone-use-dds-over-zeromq
12:08 PM CaptHindsight: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/27768443/why-when-using-rather-dds-instead-of-zeromq
01:16 PM rs[m]: DDS looks like it wants to include every buzzword ever invented
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: likely a big reason ROS decided to use it
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: like minds
02:03 PM rs[m]: i have no idea what ROS is trying to accomplish, but if it involves corba and realtime machine control, they are insane. IMNSHO.
02:05 PM CaptHindsight: https://design.ros2.org/articles/ros_on_dds.html
02:06 PM CaptHindsight: DDS and RTPS as the underlying communication standards for ROS 2
02:07 PM CaptHindsight: when a discussion about software to control a robot comes up and you mention LCNC..
02:08 PM CaptHindsight: people that use ROS always wonder how LCNC controls the robot that rolls down a sidewalk to carry someones lunch would be programmed
02:09 PM CaptHindsight: but when you ask them how they would use ROS to control a spindle to rigid tap some aluminum they wonder how ROS can do that
02:09 PM rs[m]: i have no idea how real robots are programmed, but i sure hope it is not G-code
02:10 PM CaptHindsight: or synchronize some other motion at 20KHz
02:11 PM CaptHindsight: lots of M-codes, M1102 : walk down street at 0.1m/s and avoid stepping on cracks using this vector .....
02:12 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
03:10 PM enleth: rs[m]: robots usually have more "layers" of control that make them much less suicidal than traditional CNC machines
03:10 PM enleth: rs[m]: if you tell a robot to collide with itself, it should refuse and tell you why
03:11 PM enleth: if it's set up properly, it should also refuse to collide with its surroundings, and include the attached tooling in the collision detection
03:12 PM enleth: (robot tooling can be dimensionally huge, like suction cup frames that pick up whole car body panels for positioning and welding)
03:13 PM enleth: rs[m]: it would be easy for a robot vendor to implement direct g-code support (and I think KUKA does it with a software add-on for robot-based machining of large blocks of material), but it would still give you much less direct control over the arm than is the case with a mill or whatever
03:14 PM enleth: sure, there are some machining centers that actually will refuse to drill holes in their own table or even in the vise
03:14 PM enleth: but it's a relatively new thing in the industry
03:15 PM enleth: robots had it forever
03:16 PM enleth: CaptHindsight: doesn't all of this actually show that Tormach had the right idea to use ROS for kinematics, but keep using LCNC internals for low-level motion control?
03:17 PM roycroft: well, robots have a code of ethics that does not allow them to harm hue-mans, and typical cnc machines do not
03:18 PM roycroft: so it would stand to reason that they would be more self-aware and controlled
03:19 PM roycroft: i think it would be great for a cnc milling machine to stop and say "really? you think you're going to hog out that pocket with that tiny end mill and not break it? please have another think about that"
03:19 PM Rab: Sounds maddening. I would definitely want a mushroom button for override.
03:19 PM rs[m]: roycroft: https://www.wfl.at/en/software/crashguard
03:20 PM roycroft: yes, an override button would be an important part of that feedback loop
03:21 PM enleth: (case in point: LCNC can do simple static IK by itself, but doesn't know anything about dynamic motion control beyond simple acceleration profiles, while ROS can keep track of Jacobian matrices to make sure the dynamic work envelope of the arm is not exceeded)
03:21 PM roycroft: otherwise known as a "dammit! just do what i say!" button
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: already looked at adding a physics engine to LCNC to check for collisions between workpiece and machine
03:25 PM enleth: roycroft: let me go downstairs and take a picture of the wall by the robot to show how this is not a great idea
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: size of endmill, feeds and speeds could just use a table to sanity check
03:27 PM CaptHindsight: then again you might still want to over ride if you use an endmill as a shaper
03:28 PM roycroft: why can't there just be a camera mounted next to the spindle, which the cnc software monitors and uses to stop the operation if a crash is imminent?
03:28 PM roycroft: it seems that would be simpler to implement, and would make it easier for the cnc software to be aware of the fixturing for the job
03:28 PM CaptHindsight: or friction welding
03:28 PM enleth: roycroft: https://i.imgur.com/ucT3Pzi.jpg
03:29 PM enleth: yes, I framed and signed the hole in the wall
03:29 PM enleth: note the smears of KUKA orange paint
03:29 PM roycroft: that does not tell me there should not be an override button
03:29 PM roycroft: it tells me you should not have pushed it
03:29 PM CaptHindsight: camera could be used if you assume that if the machine is within some proximity it should be stopped
03:30 PM roycroft: within some proximity and moving in a direction that would result in a collission
03:30 PM CaptHindsight: it could look ahead at the start of each pass to see if the coast is clear
03:30 PM CaptHindsight: it would have to check before each pass so it would slow things down
03:32 PM CaptHindsight: laziest user method would be laser scan of each part before the program starts and run through a physics engine to check for collisions
03:32 PM roycroft: all it needs to know is how close it is to the crash object and how long it takes to stop at the present rate of motion
03:33 PM roycroft: oh, and where the end of the pass should be
03:33 PM roycroft: if it's going to stop right before it hits something anyway then that's fine
03:34 PM roycroft: but yes, a laser reconnaissance trip prior to turning on the spindle would work
03:36 PM CaptHindsight: if you start with some squarish billet then you could just dump the XYZ in vs scan the part
03:37 PM CaptHindsight: that might be a good starting point since most often it's a square, rectangle or cylinder
03:37 PM Rab: enleth, superb
03:38 PM Rab: I think chips and coolant might complicate machine vision for spindle monitoring.
03:38 PM CaptHindsight: enleth: i think it was just easier for them to use ROS for the robot arm
03:38 PM Tom_L: just do your cad model right and load the material right and you should have no problems
03:38 PM CaptHindsight: Kuka would not have to tell them anything about the insides, they just used the pile of metal and controller they get handed
03:39 PM roycroft: rab: if you do the scan before you start the machining operation that would not be an issue
03:40 PM Tom_L: cad software has verification and collision detection
03:41 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: even pros make mistakes https://youtu.be/S5DwlsGxwks?t=154
03:41 PM Tom_L: only if they're lazy
03:43 PM roycroft: or human
03:43 PM Tom_L: giving them a tool like that would only make them more prone to making a mistake due to laziness
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: who you calling a human?
03:44 PM roycroft: people who make mistakes
03:45 PM Tom_L: i've broken a few cutters but it was because i got in a hurry
03:45 PM CaptHindsight: " there are no such things as accidents or mistakes, just carelessness"
03:46 PM Tom_L: typically a shop would prove a program in machinable wax or some such medium
03:46 PM CaptHindsight: happens to me when tired and in a hurry
03:47 PM Tom_L: or some monkey puts a clamp etc where it's not supposed to go
04:09 PM CaptHindsight: one offs can get tedious
04:10 PM CaptHindsight: lased displacement scan and a path check could save you from a collision
04:11 PM Tom_L: hardly the place for a cnc unless it can't be produced any other way
04:11 PM enleth: one of the advantages of pallet systems for machining centers is standardized workholding that you can set up and inspect on the bench, out of the machine, to make sure the workholding is consistent with CAD
04:12 PM enleth: no need to contort yourself through the machine doors and around the table to put the rear clamps in kinda-sorta-close to where they are supposed to be
04:15 PM CaptHindsight: every manufacturing manager or supplier of equipment used in manufacturing always wants idiot proof
04:17 PM roycroft: well, they want cheap, first of all
04:17 PM roycroft: cheap + idiot proof is nice though
04:17 PM enleth: the fact that your typical VMC workflow always starts with a rectangular hunk of material that can be clamped on the sides also kinda helps keep workholding simple and predictable
04:23 PM Connor: Someone remind me. On the 7i96 mesa card (and others) GND STEP+ STEP- DIR+ DIR- and 5v. Can you use the +/- together with a Leadshine style drive? Or do you need to use 5v with the - or GND with the + ?
04:25 PM pcw_home: With optocoupler connected drives, you are probably better off single ended
04:25 PM pcw_home: so 5V and step-/dir-
04:25 PM pcw_home: or gnd and step+/dir+
04:26 PM veegee: drdoc what power supplies are they?
04:26 PM Connor: ok
04:26 PM pcw_home: Servos with line receiver inputs are better off wired differentially
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: veegee: which HP power supplies did you mention recently?
04:27 PM Connor: That's what I was wondering. so, using + & minus is differential.. but, not really needed with the octo-couple drivers.. good deal.
04:27 PM veegee: I don't think I mentioned any at all, but drdoc posted something about power supplies that had load sharing capability
04:28 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, IIRC it was drdoc: AA22680
04:38 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, or similar, thanks
05:26 PM veegee: Ok yeah I know of similar power supplies used in telecom that are capable of similar
05:28 PM veegee: This is the one: https://www.beyondlogic.org/review-huawei-r4850g2-power-supply-53-5vdc-3kw/
05:28 PM veegee: Off topic, is there an islamic IRC channel I can troll?
05:29 PM veegee: Or christian, they're both fun to troll
05:30 PM veegee: Unfortunately, the voltage of that power supply can't be adjusted from 0 to full scale
05:30 PM veegee: it has limited adjustability
05:30 PM veegee: BUT, the current limit seems to be fully adjustable, making it useful for charging batteries and such in the ~48V range. Also has CAN interface for monitoring and adjustment
05:31 PM Rab: Will it distract you from trolling ##linuxcnc?
05:31 PM veegee: lol!
05:31 PM veegee: Yes I need _some_ kind of outlet
05:32 PM veegee: I read the bible and quaran and my mind is just so full of shit I can troll those filthy pieces of shit with
05:32 PM veegee: While also browsing for cheap high power adjustable power supplies
05:33 PM _unreal_: NoGodDamnIdea, any updates?
05:33 PM veegee: The R4850G2 also has load sharing capability so you can build a monster high current 48V power source
05:35 PM veegee: But for anything outside of the ~43-53V range, need to step up/down. I've also been looking into designing my own ZVS full bridge power supply using the LTC3722
05:35 PM _unreal_: I just posted https://www.cnczone.com/forums/controller-cards/419158-cnc-posts.html#post2446866
05:36 PM veegee: https://www.analog.com/en/products/ltc3722.html they sell a development kit that can also be used out of the box as a fully adjustable power supply
05:37 PM veegee: https://elektroautomatik.com/en/products/dc-bidirectional-power-supplies/ this is the dream, but the pricing is what you would expect - obscene
05:38 PM CaptHindsight: veegee: there was a war over Bible vs Quran several hundred years ago, nobody won
05:38 PM veegee: CaptHindsight yeah, they're both equally shitty, that's why I love trolling them both
05:38 PM veegee: Just to blow off steam, ya know?
05:39 PM CaptHindsight: put that extra energy to work, solve stupidity
05:39 PM veegee: I wish that were posisble.
05:39 PM CaptHindsight: any low level brain research is also welcome
05:40 PM veegee: I did study neurology and human biology quite a bit, to the point where I can trigger muscle contractions in insects
05:40 PM veegee: Using electrodes and such
05:40 PM veegee: But the brain, no one knows anything about how it _really_ works
05:41 PM CaptHindsight: apply that to ending the exploitation of weaker humans
05:41 PM veegee: the neuromuscular junction is a million times simpler, and even that is a monster of a challenge to manipulate in higher order animals
05:42 PM CaptHindsight: how are memories stored and where?
05:42 PM CaptHindsight: how to selectively delete them?
05:43 PM CaptHindsight: how to transfer memories from brain to brain? Even in a fruit fly it would be a milestone
05:44 PM veegee: Exactly
05:45 PM veegee: No one knows anything about it whatsoever
05:45 PM veegee: Sure we know the roles of some neurotransmitters and some of the effects they have, but that's it, nothing more
05:45 PM CaptHindsight: synthetic cells - something understood that may be modified
05:45 PM veegee: Same with "AI". People come to me all the time and think that AI and machine learning is like the terminator
05:45 PM veegee: it's hilarious
05:45 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2021/03/scientists-create-simple-synthetic-cell-grows-and-divides-normally
05:46 PM veegee: We can barely make a car drive itself _sometimes_ on the highway
05:46 PM CaptHindsight: but can kick your butt in chess :)
05:46 PM veegee: Yes exactly, that's one of the examples I give them
05:46 PM veegee: Highly specific examples
05:46 PM veegee: We're nowhere close to a general purpose AI
05:47 PM CaptHindsight: look how slow Biologists move, this is 11 years earlier https://www.jcvi.org/research/first-self-replicating-synthetic-bacterial-cell
05:49 PM veegee: People have been telling me self driving cars would be here within 5 years, 10 years ago
05:49 PM CaptHindsight: if semiconductor fabs were this slow we would still be at >1um for CPU's
05:49 PM veegee: We're still a minimum 10 years away
05:50 PM veegee: Yeah semiconductor tech and physics is moving incredibly fast
05:50 PM veegee: Which is weird because people think _that's_ the thing that's moving slow
05:50 PM CaptHindsight: we can have them next year of we shift liability to the driver/user
05:50 PM CaptHindsight: of/if
05:50 PM veegee: 99.9999% of people have no idea how complicated the physics of it is
05:50 PM veegee: CaptHindsight I don't know about that
05:51 PM veegee: I bought my mom a Tesla last year and I took it for a drive yesterday
05:51 PM veegee: It was raining lightly and it disabled autopilot for most of the trip
05:51 PM veegee: how hard would it have been to put wipers on the camera? idiots
05:52 PM veegee: it also missed reading some of the speed limit signs
05:53 PM CaptHindsight: or solve some paradoxes, why do people with freedom of choice choose less freedom?
05:54 PM veegee: you mean republicans voting against their self interest?
05:54 PM veegee: or something more simple like choice of beans at the grocery store
05:54 PM CaptHindsight: yes, any
05:54 PM CaptHindsight: self destructive behaviors
05:54 PM veegee: idiotas ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
05:58 PM Tom_L: the front facing camera caught some snowflakes on me and slammed on the brakes out of nowhere
05:59 PM Tom_L: veegee, most speed limits are on google maps but not always current
06:02 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNOGqNCbcV8&t=4s Time-Travel Rephotography
06:03 PM CaptHindsight: how to program DNA robots? https://phys.org/news/2021-04-dna-robots-minutes-days.html
06:03 PM CaptHindsight: nanoROS vs nanoLCNC
06:06 PM Tom_L: is it live or is it memorex?
06:13 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/04/13/allwinner-d1-linux-risc-v-sbc-processor/
06:15 PM CaptHindsight: <$15 riscv boards
06:16 PM Tom_L: looks like the rpi layout
06:17 PM CaptHindsight: http://linuxgizmos.com/pine64-unveils-rk3566-powered-sbc-and-reveals-an-upcoming-risc-v-board/
06:17 PM CaptHindsight: no price yet but it's to have up to 8GB of RAM
06:18 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:19 PM CaptHindsight: $25 (2GB) version http://linuxgizmos.com/compact-20-nanopi-neo3-sbc-runs-linux-on-rk3328/
06:20 PM CaptHindsight: ^^ + Remora and $25 IO board for $50 LCNC controller
06:40 PM veegee: Tom_L yeah it's pathetic that's the best they can do with the amount of money they have
06:40 PM veegee: https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2021/04/18/2-men-dead-after-fiery-tesla-crash-in-spring-officials-say/
06:48 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:01 PM CaptHindsight: At one point, Herman said, deputies had to call Tesla to ask them how to put out the fire in the battery.
07:01 PM CaptHindsight: ‘Autopilot was not enabled’: CEO Elon Musk responds to deadly Tesla crash in The Woodlands
07:02 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2021/04/19/ceo-elon-musk-responds-to-deadly-tesla-crash-in-the-woodlands/
07:03 PM CaptHindsight: might jst be a case of someone jumping into the backseat while driving
07:03 PM CaptHindsight: it happens
07:03 PM CaptHindsight: afterall it is Texas
07:03 PM veegee: LOL "autopilot not enabled" wtf
07:03 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:03 PM veegee: oh in the second car
07:04 PM roycroft: wait
07:04 PM roycroft: is that the tesla crash where it was determined that there was no driver?
07:04 PM CaptHindsight: maybe
07:04 PM veegee: "no driver" as in, no humans in the car? Or the human wasn't driving
07:04 PM roycroft: no driver + no autopilot = no fun
07:04 PM CaptHindsight: might be more than one
07:05 PM roycroft: i think it's the same crash i read about earlier today
07:05 PM CaptHindsight: story links above ^^
07:05 PM roycroft: there was a passenger in the front on the right, and a passenger in the back
07:05 PM Tom_L: so is a sandbag considered a driver or does it really detect a driver?
07:05 PM roycroft: the car was going way too fast and ran off the road into the woods
07:05 PM roycroft: it caught on fire and it took hours to put the fire out
07:05 PM roycroft: authorities determined that there was nobody sitting in the driver's seat when the car crashed
07:06 PM CaptHindsight: Fowler said the car won’t operate without the driver wearing their seatbelt.
07:06 PM Tom_L: this is the future. get used to it
07:06 PM CaptHindsight: “Now, if I left my hands off for a period of time, see it says ‘Apply slight force to the steering wheel.’ If I don’t grab the wheel, at this point, it’s going to stop.”
07:06 PM veegee: Yeah
07:06 PM veegee: I should make a little bot that watches the screen for that
07:06 PM CaptHindsight: i want my car to go to the store for me
07:06 PM veegee: and some stepper motor or something to nudge the steering wheel
07:06 PM veegee: so easy to circumvent
07:07 PM CaptHindsight: robot arm as driver
07:07 PM roycroft: this crash, from what i've read, is not a fault with tesla per se
07:07 PM CaptHindsight: yeah they soild their car to the owner
07:07 PM Tom_L: putting out the fire might be
07:07 PM CaptHindsight: sold even
07:07 PM roycroft: however, i think they should not call their software "autopilot", and should vehemently argue against every use of that term
07:07 PM roycroft: it should be called something like "pilot assist"
07:07 PM veegee: Just don't use the word pilot
07:08 PM CaptHindsight: pilot connotes flying
07:08 PM veegee: It's an idiot driver
07:08 PM CaptHindsight: idiot assist
07:08 PM veegee: most of them don't have anywhere near the intelligence to pass a flight exam
07:08 PM roycroft: or "don't be a fucking moron - you still have to sit behind the wheel and pay attention when you're operating the vehicle"
07:08 PM roycroft: fine, "driver assist"
07:09 PM CaptHindsight: how about we just put 7-11's on wheels?
07:09 PM roycroft: however, i would argue that most people who legally operate motor vehicles should not be called "drives"
07:09 PM roycroft: drivers
07:09 PM CaptHindsight: they can roam the streets and deliver daily
07:09 PM roycroft: they should be called "idiots behind the wheel"
07:09 PM CaptHindsight: mobile Amazon pantry
07:09 PM roycroft: so i ordered a vise from amazon
07:09 PM roycroft: reluctantly
07:09 PM roycroft: but i did so
07:10 PM roycroft: today a box arrived
07:10 PM roycroft: it did not contain a vise
07:10 PM CaptHindsight: big vise?
07:10 PM _unreal_: roycroft, tomorrow a vise will arrive, it will not contain a box
07:10 PM _unreal_: LOL
07:10 PM roycroft: it contained a chunk of cast iron that was very roughly machined, and had an acme thread screw that would not turn
07:10 PM roycroft: and no, a small one
07:10 PM roycroft: 2-1/2"
07:11 PM CaptHindsight: I got some free signs and a cabinet from Amazon
07:11 PM _unreal_: free?
07:11 PM roycroft: this is my fastest return ever
07:11 PM CaptHindsight: hehe
07:11 PM roycroft: amazon don't even think it's been delivered yet, but i have an rma
07:11 PM _unreal_: free from amazon?
07:11 PM Tom_L: roycroft, it's all your fault. you did order it from Amazon...
07:11 PM Tom_L: what do they know about precision?
07:11 PM _unreal_: I got free stuff from aliexpress many times
07:11 PM CaptHindsight: somehow we were getting deliveries intended for someone else, with our address and their name
07:12 PM _unreal_: when ever something takes more then 60 days "shipping" I request a refund
07:12 PM _unreal_: I typically get the $ refund. and the package still arrives
07:12 PM CaptHindsight: Amazon told us to keep them
07:12 PM roycroft: that is the same crash report
07:12 PM Tom_L: just the cost of doing big business
07:12 PM XXCoder: amazon you cant be sure its actual offical product or clones
07:13 PM roycroft: and the article states why driver assist vehicles will not catch on
07:13 PM CaptHindsight: how do returns work with Amazon?Who pays for all the shipping?
07:13 PM roycroft: "the car also obeys the speed limit"
07:13 PM Tom_L: some of ours have lane assist and i don't think anybody uses it
07:13 PM roycroft: it depends on the reason for the return
07:13 PM CaptHindsight: Amazon has always offered me money vs taking the return
07:13 PM roycroft: i have never paid to return something
07:13 PM Tom_L: it just makes it cost more to replace the windshield
07:14 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:14 PM CaptHindsight: how about the original shipping?
07:14 PM roycroft: because i've never returned something just because i don't like it or i changed my mind
07:14 PM roycroft: i don't know, because i never pay for shipping
07:14 PM roycroft: i always use the free super-saver shipping
07:14 PM CaptHindsight: ah
07:14 PM roycroft: btw
07:14 PM roycroft: i ordered this on saturday
07:14 PM roycroft: today is monday
07:14 PM roycroft: i do not have amazon prime, and i still got it in 2 days
07:16 PM CaptHindsight: I bought a few $1500 projectors and similar on Amazon, they gave me lots of $$ back when I complained about missing items/accessories
07:16 PM CaptHindsight: $300-500 for missing remotes
07:17 PM roycroft: at least it's not fry's
07:17 PM roycroft: (and i don't say r.i.p. when i discuss fry's)
07:17 PM CaptHindsight: but in the past 2 years I just don't find anything I need that will be a quick ship
07:18 PM CaptHindsight: everything I could use is >7 days
07:18 PM CaptHindsight: which likely means stocked in China
07:19 PM roycroft: *morbid chuckle*
07:20 PM roycroft: the first comment on that article: "Elon Musk put out a statement that reads as follows: While it's true that the car crashed and burned for hours, we got a lot of good data out of it."
07:21 PM Tom_L: maybe he just likes blowing things up
07:23 PM roycroft: then he's in the right business
07:23 PM roycroft: the experimental rocket business involves a lot of blowing things up
07:24 PM Tom_L: roycroft, why such a small vise? is that the tooling vise you got?
07:27 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:35 PM roycroft: tom_l: i want a small vise to hold parts on my bandsaw
07:36 PM roycroft: for when i need to do things like cut some bolts shorter
07:36 PM roycroft: i just need a small one that i can mount to a piece of flat bar, so i can clamp the flat bar in the main vise and be able to hold really small parts right next to the blade
07:37 PM roycroft: i haven't purchased the sine vise yet
07:37 PM roycroft: that's for the milling machine
07:42 PM roycroft: i've been looking on ebay, but anything that is not obviously total junk and can have the term "machinist" associated with it in any way goes for >$100
07:43 PM roycroft: and even a lot of the junk ones get the word "vintage" tacked onto the description, and the price doubled or tripled over what the actual value is
07:43 PM XXCoder: ebay
07:44 PM roycroft: ebay ain't what it used to be
07:45 PM XXCoder: it was store of crap stuff people wanna pawn off lol
07:45 PM XXCoder: yes, my account is that old
07:47 PM roycroft: my ebay account goes back to the late '90s
07:47 PM roycroft: '97 or '98
07:47 PM XXCoder: Jan 5 1998
07:47 PM roycroft: so about the same time
07:48 PM roycroft: it was a lot smaller then
07:48 PM XXCoder: yeah. my ebay accouint can drink beer now
07:48 PM roycroft: it's getting frustrating trying to find the right vise
07:48 PM roycroft: so i think i'll just give up on that for now
07:48 PM roycroft: some day i'll stumble upon the ideal one
07:48 PM XXCoder: sucks :(
07:48 PM roycroft: and that's the day when it will be time to get it
07:49 PM roycroft: i'm tired today anyway - i haven't suffered much in the way of side effects of the second dose, but i do feel like i haven't slept in a week
07:49 PM roycroft: no headache, no sore muscles, no fever
07:49 PM roycroft: all in all it went well
07:50 PM XXCoder: not bad
07:50 PM XXCoder: i get mine in 3 days
07:50 PM roycroft: but looking for this vise on ebay is making me more tired
07:50 PM roycroft: great!
07:51 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
07:52 PM XXCoder: just hope its mild
07:52 PM XXCoder: im in *really* shitty condition now
07:52 PM XXCoder: back hurts
07:52 PM XXCoder: arthitis re-confirmed, and now moderate
07:55 PM Tom_L: what's the waiting period between 1 & 2?
07:55 PM XXCoder: uhh a month i think
07:56 PM XXCoder: JT-Shop: on wood: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/749283134893457459/833510176585547776/173939851_1060482094477838_8156196522976067431_n.png?width=610&height=593
08:02 PM roycroft: 3 weeks for pfizer, and 4 weeks for moderna
08:03 PM roycroft: two friends of mine got their first jab before me, but they got moderna
08:03 PM roycroft: i'm the first of that group of friends to get the second jab
08:04 PM roycroft: we'll all have had both by the end of this week, though
08:08 PM Bleepshop: XXCoder: See there? If you were a masochist you could be having the time of your life right now... ;D
08:09 PM XXCoder: roy nice
08:09 PM XXCoder: bleep not sure what you mean
08:10 PM Bleepshop: XXCoder: You're miserable and in pain right ? Think about it... LOL
08:10 PM XXCoder: ah hah
08:10 PM roycroft: someone was looking for parallels for a 4" vise the other day
08:10 PM roycroft: thse are not ideal, but they might work:
08:11 PM Tom_L: me
08:11 PM roycroft: https://www.travers.com/precision/c/299634/#length=3-1%2F2%22
08:11 PM roycroft: they're 3-1/2", not 4"
08:11 PM roycroft: and not a full set
08:11 PM roycroft: but they may be useful
08:12 PM Tom_L: that possibly might be the set i have
08:13 PM Tom_L: i typically use softjaws more than parallels
08:14 PM roycroft: i don't, but i know i should
08:14 PM roycroft: so maybe some day i shall
08:14 PM Tom_L: i'm considering trying those roughing endmills i posted couple days ago
08:15 PM Tom_L: you don't typically see small ones in a shop
08:15 PM Tom_L: https://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/tasrougher.aspx
08:16 PM NoGodDamnIdea: _unreal_, yes but tomorrow, I fell asleep tonight and will sleep now
08:16 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
08:19 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, have you ever tried their roughers?
08:22 PM roycroft: 1/2" is the smallest roughing mill i've seen or used
08:22 PM roycroft: but i've not looked around for smaller ones
08:23 PM Tom_L: .250 works well on my mill so i may get some to try
08:23 PM roycroft: tom_l: harbor freight have 6" parallel sets for $35
08:24 PM roycroft: those i would not feel bad about cutting down to 4" :)
08:24 PM Tom_L: yeah i'd rather not cut them
08:24 PM roycroft: yeah, me too
08:24 PM roycroft: but harbor freight
08:24 PM Tom_L: and i'd rather they actually be parallel
08:25 PM Tom_L: i've got some of their calipers i use for scribes
08:26 PM * roycroft hands tom_l a bottle of baijiu
08:26 PM roycroft: have a few swigs of that and they'll be very parallel
08:28 PM roycroft: i should get a set of wavy parallels
08:28 PM roycroft: i've been fortunate that i've never drilled into a parallel, but i often need to drill very close to the edge of a part
08:28 PM roycroft: and wavy parallels would make that easier
08:30 PM roycroft: fritz mondale had died
08:30 PM veegee: I am SOOOOOOO tempted https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1547241805
08:30 PM veegee: It has a variable piston pump
08:31 PM veegee: Just the pump alone is a few thousand dollars. I'd be getting so much more with this unit: additional gear pump, 2 motors. Fully functioning hydraulic power pack.
08:36 PM Tom_L: roycroft, that's where softjaws are nice. you can make mistakes and it doesn't matter as much
09:04 PM roycroft: yes
09:05 PM roycroft: although i'm not sure i'd call it a mistake if i have to drill a the very edge of a part, and decide to use sacrificial soft jaws
09:09 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:14 PM XXCoder: JT-Shop: on wood: https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/749283134893457459/833510176585547776/173939851_1060482094477838_8156196522976067431_n.png?width=610&height=593
09:18 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:29 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:36 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:54 PM XXCoder: interesting! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JU4Xxwv1TI
09:54 PM XXCoder: planetary roller screws
10:21 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
11:45 PM * Bleepshop does the 'Covered in Blue foam chips' dance.
11:46 PM Bleepshop: First live test of the router with a chunk of blueboard for a target.
11:46 PM _unreal_: wtf is blueboard?
11:48 PM Bleepshop: Blue closed cell foam insulation.
11:48 PM Bleepshop: It's great for tests, hotwiring RC airplane wings out of, etc, etc...
11:48 PM _unreal_: OH foam boarde
11:49 PM _unreal_: god I cant wait till I get this damn board in hand
11:49 PM Bleepshop: Of course I didn't have the dust shoe on it so bits blew EVERYWHERE... LOL
11:49 PM _unreal_: :S
11:51 PM Bleepshop: _unreal_: Board ? Nice Oak 2x4 with a handle carved in one end to use as an ID-10-T reset device ? ;D
11:51 PM _unreal_: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPqX5FMaiwizwkp5A0lmHpWMVkC32P_WxZ3-6tw3fKjWP90ujEXEVws37aZ8SsFQA?key=LTBIU3F3bHdJUndDUEJPalJzcTFxdGlGSlBUOW53
11:51 PM _unreal_: my laser etcher progress
11:52 PM _unreal_: right now its getting a wrap
11:52 PM Bleepshop: Router to cut the copper clad ?
11:53 PM _unreal_: huh?
11:54 PM Bleepshop: I see a PC board and a wood board with bourbon and was asking how you did the PCB.
11:55 PM Bleepshop: Or did you actually get that etched on the laser?