#linuxcnc Logs

Apr 12 2021

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:06 AM Deejay: moin
01:13 AM drdoc: hola
01:52 AM Loetmichel: *gggrrrrr* First time in months i sat in a traffic jam for 45 min. I HATE it when that happens... 30 min late to the company. The guy that cause the crash that caused jam is cursed enough now i think though.
01:53 AM drdoc: no doubt
02:15 AM drdoc: So, I'm looking at used NEMA enclosures on ebay
02:15 AM drdoc: housing for motor drivers, spindle power, etc
02:16 AM drdoc: there are quite a few priced at $30-50, and $300 shipping.
02:18 AM drdoc: https://www.ebay.com/itm/291658654479
02:18 AM XXCoder: 557 for me lol
02:18 AM drdoc: 24x24x6" emclosure, $22, $341 shipping
02:19 AM drdoc: that's lower 48 to lower 48
02:19 AM drdoc: and not a huge nor delicate item
02:20 AM XXCoder: id rather make my own than pay 557 shipping lol
02:20 AM XXCoder: its expenended not slow shipping. for some reason
02:21 AM drdoc: 24x24x6, I'd buy a *really* nice case for my PC and use the old one
02:21 AM XXCoder: exactly
02:21 AM drdoc: that's actually what I'm thinking of doing - using the case from an old dead Dell
02:22 AM drdoc: it's BTX, so essentially useless
02:23 AM drdoc: have to do some twiddling to make it crap-proof, but that's true of most anything I could buy
02:23 AM drdoc: and duct tape's cheap.
02:23 AM drdoc: :-)
02:23 AM XXCoder: have 3d printer?
02:24 AM XXCoder: you could design internal holder with it
02:24 AM drdoc: indeed I do
02:24 AM drdoc: pbbbt
02:24 AM XXCoder: its in my plans evenuallu
02:24 AM drdoc: drill 8 holes and install DIN rails
02:24 AM XXCoder: yeah but then you could also use 3d printer to hold some specialized stuff
02:25 AM XXCoder: in my case, BOB and tb6600s
02:25 AM drdoc: print fan "guards" that hold an auto air filter
02:25 AM XXCoder: exactly
02:25 AM XXCoder: frankly i dont know why most shops dont have one
02:25 AM drdoc: BoB is easy. Steal a parallel-port bulkhead plate
02:26 AM XXCoder: im printing fun stuff like
02:26 AM XXCoder: though
02:26 AM XXCoder: like stool sample
02:26 AM XXCoder: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:58969
02:26 AM drdoc: I'm using DM542 drivers, so they'll bolt flat to the m/b plate
02:27 AM drdoc: dude.
02:27 AM XXCoder: nice
02:27 AM drdoc: my old lasy is a nurse practitioner, specializes in gerontology
02:27 AM drdoc: old folks medicine
02:27 AM drdoc: I gotta make that for her
02:28 AM XXCoder: :D I just empited one so i can finally make one
02:28 AM drdoc: I'll just ask her for a sample cup & label
02:29 AM drdoc: OK
02:29 AM XXCoder: im not sure how to source medical looking label
02:29 AM drdoc: ebay
02:30 AM drdoc: bet a donut you can buy a stack for a couple bucks
02:30 AM drdoc: shielded 18/4: on the way
02:30 AM XXCoder: true
02:31 AM drdoc: 4-pin aviation plugs: also on the way
02:31 AM drdoc: motors, drivers, 7i96, spindle and PSU for same: in hand
02:32 AM drdoc: machine assembled, ready for tramming
02:33 AM drdoc: RTFM for all that: done, and done some more
02:33 AM XXCoder: awesome :)
02:33 AM XXCoder: nice https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4796603
02:33 AM drdoc: I think I'm actually in the ballpark
02:33 AM XXCoder: good for short term
02:34 AM drdoc: yup
02:34 AM drdoc: I just broke down and splurged on 100 m/f standoffs and 50 f/f
02:35 AM XXCoder: i bought 50 heat inserts and bunch of m3 lengths
02:35 AM XXCoder: i need to buildthat part
02:35 AM drdoc: 15mm because I already had a ton of 4-6mm ones
02:36 AM drdoc: and because that's the length for the pile of PC/104 gear I need to assemble, test, and sell
02:42 AM Loetmichel: HAAACH... Its so nice to have adequate tools. Just doing M3 threaded rivets now with a hollow chisel tool and an 1kg hammer. One hit and the rivet is set. Before we only had 300gr hammers. That was a pain. 10 hits and still it was not in perfectly. :D
02:42 AM drdoc: a good 2lb shop hammer is indispensable
02:43 AM drdoc: light enough to be accurate and even gentle
02:43 AM drdoc: heavy enough to deliver the goods
02:43 AM Loetmichel: indeed
02:44 AM Loetmichel: already destroyed one of the setting tools by accident
02:44 AM Loetmichel: Funny how a meere 2kg hammer can squash a 10mm tool steel rod ;)
02:45 AM drdoc: ah, I thought you said 1kg
02:45 AM XXCoder: lol
02:46 AM Loetmichel: 1kg, typo
02:47 AM drdoc: I should be able to run a 48VDC/20A PSU off a 110VAC/15A circuit, right?
02:47 AM * drdoc has a homemade 1kg hammer and a 1.75kg
02:48 AM drdoc: https://www.facebook.com/doc.shipley.9
02:48 AM drdoc: that's the 1kg
02:48 AM drdoc: don't think I have photos up of the bigun
02:49 AM drdoc: anyway, 'lectrical stuffs
02:49 AM drdoc: I should be able to run a 48VDC/20A PSU off a 110VAC/15A circuit, right?
02:51 AM drdoc: IHNFI how this setup will translate to wall-watts
02:58 AM drdoc: and when I go looking for a formula, the thread invariably devolves into how I shuold have bought Gecko drivers
04:07 AM Tom_L: morning
04:09 AM Tom_L: drdoc, if the drivers are chopper drives you can get by outputting more current to the stepper
04:47 AM sensille: drdoc: the PSU should have a rating for the primary side, but even at 80% efficiency 110/15 has plenty margin
06:05 AM JT-Cave: morning
09:56 AM roycroft: hi folks
09:57 AM roycroft: in case any of you don't know of this company, i found a good vendor for noga products - good selection and great prices (although not a great company name)
09:57 AM roycroft: it's "machine shop discount supply"
09:57 AM roycroft: www.msdiscounttool.com
09:58 AM roycroft: i just placed an order with them, so i'll see how good their shipping and customer service is
10:10 AM * JT-Shop attempts to get some actual work done before lunch minute
10:10 AM roycroft: i had a productive day yesterday
10:10 AM roycroft: i was not planning on doing this, but i ended up servicing my thicknesser
10:10 AM roycroft: it's had a leaky gearbox gasket since i bought it
10:11 AM roycroft: i got a replacement a while back, but have been putting off doing the job, because so many people report how difficult it is to remove and reinstall the gear train
10:11 AM roycroft: it turned out to be not difficult at all
10:12 AM roycroft: and it also turned out that the original gasket, which is made of some plastic material, was shrivelled up in one corner as though it had been heated up, and that's why it was leaky
10:13 AM roycroft: the transmission has also not worked well since i bought the machine, but i deburred the gears and now it works very smootnly
10:13 AM roycroft: smoothly
10:26 AM JT-Shop: I had the exact same issue with my gearbox leaking
10:26 AM roycroft: i think everybody does
10:27 AM roycroft: it seems to be the most common complaint about those machines
10:27 AM roycroft: i don't like the plastic gaskets at all, and if this one leaks, i think i'll use my other spare as a template to make one out of some other material
10:28 AM roycroft: what folks complain about is lining up the gear train for reassembly
10:28 AM roycroft: i found it a little tricky to get the gears out
10:28 AM roycroft: but reinstalling went fine
10:29 AM roycroft: i set the gears up in the cover, though
10:30 AM roycroft: the method other folks decribe where they try to line everything up, partially install two of the axes in the gear body, while the third is in the cover (it has to be because of the transmission fork), seemed rather silly and potentially frustrating
10:30 AM roycroft: i just installed them all in the cover, squirted some oil in the bearing housings in the body, and popped the right in
10:31 AM roycroft: i almost made a new gasket yesterday, but as easy as it turned out to be to reinstall the gears, i don't mind trying the plastic one i got
10:51 AM JT-Shop: I didn't have any problems R&R the gearbox
10:52 AM JT-Shop: but that's why I got my wood lathe so cheap, the guy could not figure out how to change the variable speed drive pulley...
10:52 AM roycroft: i found some burrs on one of the transmission gears - they looked like factory burrs, not wear/misalignment burrs
10:53 AM roycroft: i'm sure they were why the transmission was hard to shift
10:53 AM * drdoc throws all his stepper drives away and buys Gecko
10:53 AM roycroft: after i deburred the gear, it operates really smoothly now
10:53 AM * roycroft has a box of gecko drives
10:54 AM miss0r: drdoc: fell into the ebay trap, ay?
10:54 AM drdoc: when I start making a living at this, I'll start buying pro gear
10:54 AM roycroft: mesa controller hardware + gecko drives = happy camper
10:54 AM roycroft: i'm no cnc expert at this point, but i do know that much
10:55 AM drdoc: miss0r: no, but I'm a firm believer in "sizing" the tool to the purpose
10:56 AM drdoc: this is a hobby machine, and it has hobbyist-grade electronics
10:57 AM miss0r: sure. But it doesn't take alot to exceed the specs of the el-cheapo' stepper drivers, even as a hoppyist
10:57 AM drdoc: when I do, I'll upgrade
10:58 AM drdoc: these are DM542, not exactly TB6600 knockoffs
10:58 AM drdoc: I don't think they'll be the weak point for a while
10:59 AM drdoc: Kepco power supply
10:59 AM drdoc: anyone familiar?
11:01 AM drdoc: Tom_itx: thanks for the explanation
11:10 AM JT-Shop: alright the frame is washed down and drying time for lunch minute
11:32 AM rs[m]: chopper drives don't allow for higher current (don't do that), but for higher voltage
11:33 AM rs[m]: higher voltage may result in more torque at speed
11:40 AM Rab: drdoc, Kepco at least used to make fine lab-grade PSUs. I had a couple of these back-breaking monsters: https://people.ohio.edu/postr/bapix/Kepco605.htm
11:47 AM drdoc: I'm seriously considering this:
11:47 AM drdoc: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174726217599
11:49 AM drdoc: I have a 48VDC computer PSU too; a kilowatt would power everythingt but the spindle
11:50 AM drdoc: the datasheet sez 80% efficient though, which seems low
11:51 AM Rab: drdoc, that looks like a beast. I would want to find some documentation before bidding. In particular, if it has to be strapped in some special way through that I/O connector on the back, you would like to know how.
11:52 AM drdoc: https://www.kepcopower.com/hspmod.htm
11:52 AM drdoc: https://www.kepcopower.com/support/hspopr-b.pdf
11:52 AM drdoc: I totally agree
11:52 AM drdoc: :-)
11:53 AM drdoc: my drivers are rated to 50V, so I might need to back off a bit on the voltage
11:54 AM drdoc: that "engineered" input wiring is cringeworthy
11:54 AM gregcnc: how big are these steppers that you need 1kW?
11:55 AM drdoc: gregcnc: 4 3A NEMA 23
11:55 AM drdoc: but like I said if I go with 48V, I can run the computer off it too
11:57 AM drdoc: if all 4 motors were running full blast that'd be something around 550-600W
11:57 AM drdoc: so call it that to run the machine, with a little comfort zone
11:57 AM Rab: 80% efficiency at 100% load is probably better than any AliExpress warez, considering those figures are likely accurate and truthful.
11:58 AM gregcnc: that means full voltage
11:58 AM drdoc: gregcnc: like I said, if I spec it at full rater current, that leaves me some real-life margin
11:58 AM gregcnc: look into server power supplies and connecting them in series
11:59 AM gregcnc: that would be the cheapest way if that's the goal
11:59 AM drdoc: I'm currently (pun intended) running 2 Dell 750W in series
12:00 PM drdoc: I don't know why but strapping 2 more in there is kind of scary
12:00 PM drdoc: :-D
12:02 PM drdoc: a 48V 600W Meanwell is about the price of that Kepco, but a lot less flexible
12:02 PM drdoc: gregcnc: do you know of anyone running 3 or 4 server PSU in series?
12:07 PM gregcnc: I'd look at the real needs of your steppers to make sure you need that much power
12:08 PM gregcnc: I know it's common to run 2 in series, not very many applications for more than that
12:08 PM drdoc: I know
12:08 PM drdoc: short version is higher voltage = less amps for the same load
12:08 PM Rab: I have 2x 1200W HP PSUs (DPS-1200FB) in series for a 24V BLDC spindle. I had to modify one to isolate it from ground. I'd be a little uneasy at chaining a bunch of them.
12:09 PM drdoc: exactly
12:09 PM drdoc: mine are dells, but it's the same basic idea
12:10 PM gregcnc: so if safety is a facotr dismiss that
12:10 PM drdoc: right
12:10 PM Rab: Unfortunately crypto miners discovered surplus server PSUs, so they're not as cheap as they used to be.
12:10 PM gregcnc: is reliability a factor
12:10 PM drdoc: gregcnc: absolutely
12:11 PM gregcnc: old surplus crap fits right in?
12:11 PM jdh: Reaction time is a factor
12:11 PM drdoc: Rab: my buddy worked for a service org in DFW
12:11 PM drdoc: I have 9 or 10 of those Dells with known in-service hours
12:11 PM drdoc: jdh: ?
12:13 PM Rab: I've heard the HP PSUs can up and die mysteriously if they're isolated. I suspect either poor modding skillz, or destructive EMI once the circuitry is floating.
12:14 PM mrec_: finally I can cut off 30mm steel on my mini lathe :-)
12:14 PM gregcnc: I have a rack with redundant supplies for one of my machines. Takes 3 400 or 525W units. I use 2 400W
12:14 PM mrec_: after 20 dead carbide inserts...
12:14 PM Rab: So that setup wouldn't be my first choice for reliability. The Kepco PSU can probably absorb some punishing load.
12:28 PM drdoc: Rab: I'm very much inclined to bid on it
12:29 PM drdoc: it might be overkill, but that's just room to grow
01:03 PM CaptHindsight: just SSI absolute encoders for now? https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/abs_encoder.c
01:04 PM CaptHindsight: ask Andy which part number encoders he uses
01:18 PM pcw_home: Hostmot2 has supported SSI, BISS and Fanuc absolute encoders for a long time,
01:21 PM CaptHindsight: pcw_home: is it written up somewhere or just "consult the source??
01:22 PM CaptHindsight: even the source says "It is expected that it will be expanded to cover BISS and Fanuc absolute encoders in the future"
01:23 PM pcw_home: hostmot2 manual page
01:24 PM CaptHindsight: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html
01:34 PM drdoc: Rab: you still around?
01:39 PM mrec_: did anyone install a dremel/drill on a crossslide?
01:39 PM gregcnc: it's been done
01:39 PM drdoc: yes
01:40 PM drdoc: for trimming pcbs
01:40 PM drdoc: simple V-slot stage and 3D-printed clamp
01:40 PM drdoc: it was a foredom handpiece though, not a dremel
01:42 PM roycroft: so it did not fail immediately, drdoc
01:42 PM roycroft: like a dremel would
01:42 PM drdoc: ^^^^
01:42 PM drdoc: :-)
01:43 PM drdoc: foredom are pretty good about a heavy duty cycle
01:43 PM mrec_: hmm so many things I have to do with that manual lathe :-(
01:43 PM drdoc: a Dremel will just melt the bearing "mounts"
01:43 PM roycroft: you mean "bearing" "mounts"
01:43 PM * roycroft has an attitude about dremels
01:43 PM drdoc: some of them have not-terrible ball bearings
01:44 PM drdoc: but yeah. the best bearing made, mounted in plastic, is crap
01:44 PM mrec_: I just saw a video where someone made an aluminium toolholder... if I just look at my crossslide >50% is empty
01:44 PM * roycroft found foredom to be much less expensive than dremel, as foredom only has to be purchased one, not once per job or mulitple times per job
01:44 PM drdoc: Dremels are perfectly fine for what they're for
01:45 PM mrec_: I have a dearmel :D
01:45 PM roycroft: for giving as gifts to people who fancy the idea of being handy around the house but never actually do anything?
01:45 PM drdoc: zackly
01:45 PM drdoc: polishing your jewelry
01:45 PM gregcnc: I've had my dremel for 20+ years
01:45 PM mrec_: https://makerselectronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/90a081e8-f879-4dc6-bc28-86dec6c60ebc.jpg
01:45 PM gregcnc: the flex shaft didn't last long though
01:45 PM drdoc: not because it can take it, but because you'll give up
01:46 PM mrec_: I tried to grind some carbide today with the dearmel it failed... so I went to the grinder which worked okay.
01:46 PM drdoc: gregcnc: a 20+ year old dremel is waaay different from a new one
01:46 PM mrec_: I only have failed carbides here after all the parting tries the last try succeeded so no I parted 5x 30mm steel without any issue
01:47 PM mrec_: now*
01:47 PM bjorkintosh: this is an annoyance. on my screen, the directory contents are truncated with LOTS of whitespace left over for ... giggles? can the columns be made wider? http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/pdf/
01:48 PM mrec_: that was a good lesson about what brittle means and about the strength of carbide.
01:48 PM drdoc: not to my knowledge
01:48 PM drdoc: bjorkintosh: if you find a way I'll paypal you a sizpack of beer
01:48 PM drdoc: *six
01:49 PM gregcnc: view page source
01:49 PM drdoc: there's nothing there you can fix on the fly
01:49 PM gregcnc: you can read it
01:49 PM drdoc: true
01:50 PM * drdoc needs a nap
01:54 PM bjorkintosh: drdoc> bjorkintosh: if you find a way I'll paypal you a sizpack of beer. it's doable! I'll think about it.
02:05 PM CaptHindsight: pcw_home: do happen to know a known working SSI absolute encoder part # that works with HM2?
02:20 PM pcw_home: Any should
02:27 PM CaptHindsight: trying to avoid getting that one that doesn't
02:39 PM pcw_home: Make sure its really SSI. SSI has only 2 signals: clock and data no CS (some ICs that claim to be SSI have a CS signal)
02:40 PM pcw_home: SSI is very simple, you send a clock and the encoder returns data synchronously with the clock
02:44 PM CaptHindsight: thanks, I recall old discussions where they were working with LCNC but using their own forks
02:44 PM pcw_home: The hostmot2 driver just needs the data format (SSI format string on the driver command line)
02:44 PM CaptHindsight: i missed where Andy added this to the official
02:46 PM CaptHindsight: pcw_home: the 7i96 gets mentioned, are there only configs for the 7i96?
02:47 PM CaptHindsight: I can of course build whatever i wish from source
02:47 PM pcw_home: SSI/BISS/FANUC/XY2-100 work on any FPGA board
03:36 PM CaptHindsight: been looking at the ROS Robot Operating System
03:36 PM CaptHindsight: it's like reprap on steroids
03:37 PM CaptHindsight: they didn't consider real time when they started the project so had to come up with a ROS2 later to deal with it
03:47 PM CaptHindsight: did machinekit fully move to ZeroMQ?
03:47 PM CaptHindsight: it's also what ROS uses
04:16 PM enleth: _unreal_: that should work just like laser engraving any other wooden thing
04:17 PM _unreal_: I agree but there are different types of woods
04:17 PM _unreal_: I'll be back later have to run to the pool store to get pool stuff\
04:18 PM enleth: so get a cutting board for testing made of the same stuff as the final one, to tune in the settings
04:18 PM CaptHindsight: and of course ROS uses DDS anyway (eye roll)
04:19 PM enleth: _unreal_: the only thing I can think of that might *really* change the way the board reacts to engraving is if it's one of those end grain butcher blocks
04:19 PM enleth: so just do some testing
04:20 PM roycroft: actually, different woods will etch differently, even if etching the same grain orientation
04:20 PM roycroft: i agree to test a similar sample
04:20 PM drdoc: dadblame it
04:21 PM roycroft: and even that might not be a good test - moisture content will affect it as well
04:21 PM drdoc: I hate it when somebody has a better design than mine
04:21 PM enleth: frankly, all cutting boards I've ever had were either bamboo or "wood", with zero indication of what type of wood it actually is
04:21 PM roycroft: so if your test board is 14% and your actual workpiece is 6% there may be differences in the etching
04:22 PM roycroft: and some woods are difficult to differentiate, even to the trained eye
04:22 PM drdoc: roycroft: so, bake it at 55-60C for a few hours
04:23 PM enleth: roycroft: https://img.joemonster.org/upload/zmi/590120b0160976Wood.jpg
04:23 PM drdoc: but yeah, that's why I prefer metal & synthetics
04:23 PM drdoc: they're not nearly as cantankerous
04:26 PM enleth: CaptHindsight: Tormach recently did something interesting - they integrated ROS with LinuxCNC HAL
04:27 PM enleth: for their ZA06 robot, to be released later this year
04:28 PM enleth: CaptHindsight: they decided to use ROS for kinematics, but HAL for, well, HAL, because that's what all the rest of their software stack expects
04:32 PM enleth: ("their" robot being a bit of a stretch, the arm is actually a customized KUKA KR6 R900, but it appears Tormach made their own control cabinet and software)
05:11 PM CaptHindsight: enleth: yes, saw the announcement in my searches
05:12 PM CaptHindsight: ROS doesn't have a fast thread for things like CNC tapping
05:13 PM CaptHindsight: their is a discussion from 2017 in ROS with the some LCNC devs
05:13 PM CaptHindsight: ROS is just bad at explaining what it actually is
05:14 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6K2LWG2kRI actually does a better job
05:16 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFjR_Kr6JOE Tormach - A ROS-Based Open Industrial Manipulator
05:19 PM enleth: CaptHindsight: yes, when I first saw ROS, I couldn't tell the "marketing" cruft from actual information
05:21 PM enleth: even the ros.org website looks more like a marketing blurb targeting some kind of inept audience
05:21 PM CaptHindsight: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/pathpilot/40935-pathpilot-robot
05:22 PM enleth: it's even worse with ROS-I
05:22 PM CaptHindsight: yeah it's part of that RTFM culture
05:22 PM CaptHindsight: and the FM doesn't have a block diagram
05:24 PM enleth: granted, linuxcnc does go into the other extreme a little bit sometimes
05:24 PM enleth: but it's the better extreme
05:25 PM enleth: anyway, what Tormach is doing here is super cool, even if I'm definitely not going to be able to shell out $16k to get one
05:25 PM Tom_itx: it would be better if it hadn't been written over the course of probably 15-20 yrs
05:26 PM enleth: anything that makes 6R manipulators more accessible to small businesses is cool
05:26 PM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
05:26 PM CaptHindsight: I'm looking at build vs buy for a similar sized robot
05:26 PM CaptHindsight: I only have a 1Kg load
05:26 PM enleth: right now, if you're not shitting money, the only way to do it is getting an old, used robot
05:26 PM CaptHindsight: I need several
05:27 PM CaptHindsight: and all the same model
05:27 PM enleth: that's usually not a problem, there are specialized used robot dealers
05:27 PM CaptHindsight: I can build them for less
05:28 PM CaptHindsight: the Tormach is closer to 100% markup than most other vendors
05:28 PM CaptHindsight: others are 200% or more
05:28 PM CaptHindsight: and the Chinese bots are still a race to the bottom
05:29 PM enleth: frankly, I have no idea how they got the price so low while using a KUKA arm
05:29 PM CaptHindsight: I never used Kuka, could not stand their salespeople
05:30 PM CaptHindsight: I passed up a few used Kuka's
05:30 PM enleth: I have a first generation KR200, no real use for it, just a toy to mess around with and learn
05:31 PM CaptHindsight: their customers must be the target audience as for ROS
05:31 PM enleth: mentality-wise, possibly
05:31 PM CaptHindsight: I worked with Staubli's, but they are just over priced for me
05:32 PM CaptHindsight: they don't do what I need them to out of the box
05:32 PM CaptHindsight: and if I'm going to mod a robot this much I may as well just build it
05:33 PM enleth: funny thing about used old robots is, while the industrial robot tech did a *huge* jump ahead between 1990 and 1995, with any previous robots being useless garbage by now - the 1995 and newer robots are more or less the same stuff, with incremental improvements only
05:33 PM enleth: so my 1995 KR200 is, at a high level, exactly the same design and tech as the newest models
05:33 PM CaptHindsight: 500mm reach, 1Kg load , 0.5mm repeatability would be good enough for this app
05:34 PM CaptHindsight: $16k is actually pretty good price if I didn't have to also mod it
05:34 PM CaptHindsight: it's either closer to $30K or Chinese junk for $5k
05:35 PM enleth: CaptHindsight: Tormach is doing a beta-testing phase for ZA6 right now, you might be able to lend one from them for free for several months to see if it fits your use case
05:35 PM enleth: they even lent a few units to youtubers to get some visibility
05:36 PM CaptHindsight: I need 4 to start
05:36 PM enleth: doesn't hurt to contact them
05:36 PM enleth: if your use case is interesting for them, you just might get them
05:36 PM CaptHindsight: thinking about it, without their controller
05:36 PM enleth: their controller appears to be completely hackable
05:37 PM enleth: you want it for the servo drives, if nothing else
05:37 PM enleth: no point in wasting time re-doing that part
05:38 PM drdoc: pcw_home: I'm setting up the 7i96 board and need a 5V source for it. With nothing hanging off it, is 250mA enough?
05:39 PM drdoc: gregcnc: there are RC plane guys stacking 8 of those 12V server PSUs in series
05:39 PM CaptHindsight: enleth: servo drives are off the shelf
05:40 PM CaptHindsight: enleth: what I don't know is what Tormach used for encoders
05:40 PM enleth: if they just went with whatever KUKA installed, it's most likely Siemens servos with integrated encoders
05:40 PM CaptHindsight: enleth: something with direct connect to Mesa or something else
05:41 PM enleth: or, most likely, resolvers
05:42 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.anninrobotics.com/robot-kits
05:42 PM drdoc: ands what do we do when we yank the connector off a wall wart and find actual black & red wires?>
05:42 PM drdoc: That's right, class! We test polarity!
05:42 PM enleth: CaptHindsight: what is it that you want to do that would justify spending time on custom control cabinets, re-doing all the boring IK basics and so on, instead of getting something that runs and moves, and just controlling it at a low level, ignoring all the PathPilot nonsense on top of it?
05:43 PM enleth: I'd take those ZA06s with cabinets just for the K/IK stuff being sorted out by someone else
05:44 PM CaptHindsight: enleth: I need to synchronize things to the encoder position info at every pulse
05:44 PM CaptHindsight: huh, the control cabinets are more an afterthought for me
05:44 PM enleth: if that presentation you linked to is anything to go by - I watched it too, a few days ago - you can actually get down to that level with what they provide out of the box
05:45 PM CaptHindsight: don't know what they used for endcoders
05:46 PM CaptHindsight: and knowing that some $ went to Kuka
05:46 PM enleth: the reason I'm asking is, while you appear to know what you're doing, normally if someone mentions the idea of doing their own control of a robot arm, they have no idea what they're getting themselves into, and I mean it in a "oh boy you have nooooo idea" way
05:47 PM CaptHindsight: heh i spelled it endcoders
05:47 PM enleth: it's a rabbit hole full of rabbit holes
05:47 PM CaptHindsight: not a problem
05:48 PM CaptHindsight: I have a more difficult spelling
05:48 PM CaptHindsight: time
05:48 PM CaptHindsight: see
05:48 PM enleth: anyway, the encoders are almost certainly whatever it is that Siemens is putting in their motors
05:48 PM CaptHindsight: control cabinets are the easy part
05:48 PM CaptHindsight: it's always the software
05:49 PM CaptHindsight: bbl
05:50 PM enleth: honestly, I have a feeling Tormach will happily tell you everything you need to know if you tell them exactly what you said here
05:50 PM enleth: what you want to do sounds like one of the intended uses of their product
05:51 PM enleth: that is, doing weird custom stuff that other vendors don't like to help with
05:53 PM CaptHindsight: <2hr drive for me
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08:46 PM _unreal_: GOT A lot of stuff made taco's tonight
08:47 PM _unreal_: I think I hate like 9 tacos and 5 beers
08:47 PM _unreal_: I'm at my limit
08:47 PM drdoc: dayum
08:47 PM * drdoc had gang panang from the new Thai Truck
08:47 PM drdoc: they get a massive thumbs up
08:51 PM Rab: drdoc, what's up?
08:59 PM drdoc: I found a thread on one of the RC forums where some dude chained *8* 12V PSUs
09:01 PM drdoc: I also talked to an EE friend who says that as long as they're properly isolated from common ground on the *output* side, not 110V in, and as long as the total voltage isn't too close to the individual supply's breakdown voltage, it's "reasonably safe"
09:01 PM drdoc: to run those server PSUs in series
09:01 PM drdoc: *but*
09:02 PM drdoc: google "Astec AA22680"
09:06 PM CaptHindsight: enleth: the Tormach bots aren't even shipping in quantity yet, this is a few week project, not a 12 month :)
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09:12 PM Rab: drdoc, excellent
09:13 PM Rab: Seems like it would be worth your while to run a 240V circuit.
09:14 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/umbratek/the-utra-series-the-worlds-most-powerful-modular-robot/description
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09:16 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.umbratek.com/
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09:44 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.dobotstore.com/products/dobot-mg400-robotic-arm
09:45 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.dobot.cc/products/cr-cobot-series.html
09:46 PM CaptHindsight: but big jump in price to ~$20K
09:48 PM CaptHindsight: https://centuryrobotics1.com/shop/ols/products/dobot-cr3-6-axis-collaborative-robot
09:48 PM roycroft: domo arigato, i'm an overpriced roboto
09:48 PM CaptHindsight: big gap between $4k and $18k
09:49 PM CaptHindsight: the http://www.umbratek.com/ is looking for that space
09:50 PM CaptHindsight: but doesn't look like a real company yet
09:51 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: how is your woodshop shaping up?
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10:20 PM roycroft: i have to bore a shaft hole in a cast iron handwheel and add a keyway to it
10:20 PM roycroft: i do not have a broach
10:20 PM roycroft: does anyone have a favorite method for making keyways without a broach?
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10:21 PM roycroft: i'm hoping to do the bore on the lathe
10:24 PM Tom_L: i tried but ended up getting a broach
10:24 PM roycroft: i've been wanting to get some broaching tooling for a long time
10:25 PM CaptHindsight: file and a steady hand?
10:25 PM roycroft: but i mostly work in american customary units, but this particular bore/keyway will be metric
10:25 PM CaptHindsight: is your mill working yet?
10:25 PM roycroft: i don't want to invest in metric broaching gear before i have any american customary
10:25 PM roycroft: manually, yes
10:26 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/broaching2.jpg
10:26 PM Tom_L: tried that first
10:26 PM roycroft: i've seen folks make a cutter that they attach to the lathe toolpost
10:26 PM roycroft: and use it like a shaper
10:26 PM Tom_L: my lathe wasn't strong enough
10:27 PM roycroft: that's kind of what i'm afraid of
10:27 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/broaching3.jpg
10:27 PM roycroft: shaving the keyway in 0.0005" increments would get tedious
10:27 PM CaptHindsight: use a file in the lathe
10:27 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/Broach_holder2.jpg
10:28 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/Test_Keyway3.jpg
10:28 PM Tom_L: that's about the best i could get with that method
10:28 PM roycroft: i could drill most of it out on the milling machine and use a file to finish it
10:28 PM roycroft: but that also sounds like a lot of work
10:28 PM CaptHindsight: pretty square-ish
10:28 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/Broach2.jpg
10:28 PM Tom_L: then i got a 5mm broach
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10:29 PM roycroft: fortunately this does not have to be too precise, since it's a handwheel, not a gear or something that is motor driven
10:29 PM roycroft: how much did that single broach set you back?
10:29 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/Test_Keyway9.jpg
10:29 PM Tom_L: much better result
10:29 PM roycroft: i usually see sets that are a few hundred dollars
10:30 PM Tom_L: roycroft, got it from grainger so more than normal but nobody here had one
10:30 PM roycroft: i'd consider getting a single broach key
10:30 PM roycroft: i don't know the size of the keyway offhand
10:30 PM roycroft: but the bore will be 12mm
10:30 PM roycroft: so the keyway won't be very big
10:31 PM roycroft: i should go measure it so can find a price for a broach
10:31 PM Tom_L: iirc it was style II?
10:31 PM Tom_L: make sure you know which style you're getting
10:31 PM roycroft: it might make sense for metric ones to buy them individually as needed
10:31 PM roycroft: because i'll hardly ever need to make a metric keyway
10:32 PM roycroft: i have an arbor press that could probably handle it
10:32 PM Tom_L: i had to get the bushing too
10:32 PM roycroft: if not, i have a 12 ton hydraulic press that i know could handle it
10:32 PM roycroft: yeah, the broach, the bushing, the fingers
10:32 PM Tom_L: arbor press will work if you have the clearance
10:32 PM Tom_L: this one just had one finger
10:32 PM Tom_L: 2 pass and done
10:32 PM roycroft: i think i'll go take a quick measure
10:33 PM Tom_L: https://www.travers.com/high-speed-steel-keyway-broaches-with-shim/p/30-600-128/
10:33 PM Tom_L: not sure but i think the style has to do with the blank width for the bushing
10:36 PM Tom_L: iirc mine was either 14 or 15mm bore. i'd have to look
10:36 PM roycroft: 4mm wide by 3.5mm deep
10:36 PM roycroft: pretty small, as i said
10:37 PM Tom_L: https://www.mcmaster.com/8805A13/
10:38 PM Tom_L: expect to lay down a franklin for the broach and bushing
10:39 PM roycroft: yeah
10:39 PM roycroft: and i can get a whole set for $200
10:39 PM Tom_L: it does a better job than anything i could come up with
10:39 PM Tom_L: my bud had a set but they were all inch
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10:40 PM Tom_L: https://www.shars.com/no-70-metric-precision-keyway-broach-set
10:40 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm//373485868387
10:40 PM roycroft: i wonder if that is any good
10:41 PM Tom_L: i'd never use a whole set
10:41 PM roycroft: nor i
10:41 PM Tom_L: you get that, you still need the bushing or make one
10:41 PM roycroft: but when a whole set is only 2x or 3x as much as a single one, it starts to make sense to get the set
10:41 PM Tom_L: not if you're space limited
10:42 PM roycroft: if you need to make one or two more keyways of a different size in the future you're at break even
10:43 PM Tom_L: find a bushing and you're set
10:43 PM roycroft: there's a dumont m12 bushing for $16 on ebay
10:43 PM Tom_L: if you need more than one i'd skip china
10:43 PM roycroft: china is a month away
10:43 PM Tom_L: if one slot is all you need, i'd try it
10:43 PM roycroft: which is a drawback
10:44 PM Tom_L: there's that
10:44 PM roycroft: because the handwheel arrives on wednesday, and i'd like to do the job this coming weekend
10:44 PM Tom_L: i just bit the bullet and got one from grainger
10:44 PM Tom_L: nobody else local had one available
10:45 PM roycroft: i forget how to determine the finger(s) required for a particular depth
10:46 PM Tom_L: this is the only one i've done so i dunno
10:46 PM Tom_L: 1 did mine just fine
10:46 PM Tom_L: once thru, shim and 2nd pass and done
10:46 PM Tom_L: probably just one
10:46 PM roycroft: machinery's handbook has all the info one could ever want about broaches
10:46 PM Tom_L: for a standard key
10:47 PM roycroft: i just need to look it up
10:47 PM Tom_L: did i show you the pdfs i got for them?
10:47 PM roycroft: i used to kind of know this, but since i've never done any broaching, it's not something i'd ever remember
10:47 PM Tom_L: i never could find the rev i had in pdf
10:47 PM roycroft: no
10:47 PM roycroft: the one i use is the toolbox size, printed in the early '40s
10:47 PM roycroft: it has all the trig tables in it
10:48 PM Tom_L: iirc mine is 25?
10:48 PM Tom_L: not sure without looking
10:49 PM roycroft: mine is 11th edition
10:49 PM Tom_L: and of course i dunno where i put them on the server
10:50 PM roycroft: the economical and practical side of me says i should figure out how to do it without broaching
10:51 PM Tom_L: mine may have turned out better with a lesser angle on the cutter
10:51 PM Tom_L: tend to grab
10:51 PM roycroft: but the other side of me says that if even pretend on the internet to have done any machining-like work i need to have actualy broached a keyway
10:51 PM roycroft: and if i can get a single broach fairly inexpensively i should probably just do that
10:52 PM Tom_L: if you're gonna wing it, practice on some scrap :)
10:58 PM roycroft: it looks like i can get what i need domestically for <$100
10:58 PM roycroft: the shims come with the broach, so all i need to buy is the broach and the bushing
10:58 PM roycroft: i'm sure i could take it to a local machine shop and have the keyway cut for <$100
10:58 PM roycroft: but where's the fun in that?
10:59 PM Tom_L: that sounds about what i ended up with
10:59 PM roycroft: it requires 1140lbs pressure in mild steel to cut the keyway
11:00 PM roycroft: this will be in cast iron, so probably more like 900lbs
11:00 PM roycroft: if there's enough clearance, my 1 ton arbor press should handle it easily
11:01 PM Tom_L: i looked at arbor presses and you'd need a fairly big one for clearance
11:01 PM Tom_L: as it turns out i ran into a guy i had do some work for me that has a huge one
11:01 PM Tom_L: i did this one myself but he offered to let me use it anytime
11:01 PM roycroft: well my 12 ton shop press would do the job for sure
11:02 PM Tom_L: yup
11:02 PM roycroft: i just spent most of my tooling budget for the month on some noga deburring tools
11:03 PM roycroft: but oh well
11:03 PM Tom_L: looking at that pic i posted mine says B1 so maybe it's style 1
11:03 PM roycroft: i can go a little over budget
11:03 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/Broach2.jpg
11:03 PM roycroft: b1 is what i need for an m4 keyway broach
11:03 PM Tom_L: just so the bushing matches the broach
11:03 PM roycroft: yes
11:03 PM Tom_L: i can see it stamped on the shim
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11:11 PM roycroft: i found what i need at travers.com
11:11 PM roycroft: $62.71 for the broach with shim + the bushing
11:11 PM roycroft: that's not too bad
11:16 PM roycroft: $72.21 including shipping
11:18 PM roycroft: mcmaster were over $100
11:18 PM XXCoder: not bad
11:19 PM roycroft: bushings are not too expensive
11:19 PM roycroft: buying the broaches individually for metric really does make sense to me
11:20 PM roycroft: and i should just bite the bullet and buy an american customary set
11:20 PM roycroft: i've never made keyway slots before but there are many times when i would have if i had broaches
11:22 PM roycroft: and i might not have even gone over budget for the month
11:24 PM roycroft: the deburring tool set i got is something i've wanted and really needed for a long time - it's the kind that can debur the back side of a hole
11:24 PM roycroft: there's only about a hundred thousand times i've needed to do that but had no good way to do it