#linuxcnc Logs
Jan 02 2021
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:02 AM _unreal_: not till monday or there after
05:25 AM Deejay: hi
05:57 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:58 AM XXCoder: yo
06:58 AM enleth: what are the typical maximum rpms of cheap generic ball bearings?
07:02 AM XXCoder: 10 rpm as it spins into trash
07:02 AM XXCoder: kidding dunno
07:11 AM gloops: whatever they want to say on the box?
07:12 AM gloops: not much runs over 5k so im guessing 10k
07:12 AM XXCoder: hey gloops
07:12 AM gloops: hi
07:12 AM XXCoder: saw your dog videos. funny!
07:12 AM XXCoder: it dug into snowman like it owes it money
07:13 AM gloops: lol yeah i saw youd seen, was funny to see dog when he spotted snowman, he was creeping around it sizing it up
07:13 AM gloops: he can dig ill give him that, same on beach with sand
07:15 AM gloops: snowing again now
07:15 AM XXCoder: :) build more training dummies for dog
07:17 AM gloops: well he can get very defensive, a bit worried about him biting someone he shouldnt, mainly just the wife he bites atm though
07:20 AM gloops: (and snowmen)
07:21 AM XXCoder: keep eye on that
07:25 AM gloops: yeah was concerned when he was younger but i think hes just on the right side of bad lol, never bit anyone out, nobody comes down the drive though
07:25 AM XXCoder: ok
07:26 AM gloops: most of the time hes just a whacky ball of energy off the lead
07:28 AM XXCoder: :)
07:53 AM _unreal_: ball bearing depends on a lot of factors
07:54 AM _unreal_: the bearings in that new BLDC spindle I have are dirt cheap china bearings and it runs at 15krpm
08:05 AM gloops: yeah its a very loose questions, top rated speed - for how long?
08:06 AM gregcnc: bearing RPM is directly related to diameter
08:07 AM gregcnc: cheap bearings? can't be bothered...
08:32 AM _unreal_: good lord it stinks in here
08:32 AM _unreal_: keep farting endlessly
08:32 AM _unreal_: :S
08:48 AM JT-Cave: HOLY CRAP I finally got a deb to build!!! and most important also the program works~!!!
08:53 AM _unreal_: ?
08:57 AM Tom_L: JT-Cave, rpi4?
08:59 AM JT-Cave: 7i96
08:59 AM Tom_L: nice
09:00 AM Tom_L: surprised it stayed above freezing last night
09:01 AM JT-Cave: yeah, I've been struggling with building a deb for weeks and weeks
09:01 AM Tom_L: the syntax?
09:01 AM Tom_L: or finding all the dependencies
09:02 AM JT-Cave: just getting the deb built so it installs by using stdeb with setup.py
09:03 AM Tom_L: i've always used dpkg on the rpi
09:03 AM JT-Cave: I think I tried that a bit too
09:03 AM Tom_L: but i don't know alot about the rpi
09:06 AM JT-Cave: did you setup the debian directory structure and add the control file?
09:07 AM Tom_L: i'm not sure i remember that
09:07 AM Tom_L: i probably took notes somewhere
09:08 AM JT-Cave: with setup.py and stdeb it's one line to build all the directory structure and all the files
09:08 AM Tom_L: setting up the debian dir doesn't sound wrong though
09:08 AM Tom_L: right
09:30 AM mrec: can anyone recommend a usable touch probe?
09:32 AM _unreal_: mrec, many. question is what kind of touch probe do you need
09:32 AM _unreal_: and to narrow THAT down a bit. do you need a METAL contact? do you need a displacement contact?
09:33 AM mrec: it would be nice to have something accurate for getting the position of the stock
09:33 AM _unreal_: do you need DEEP probe,
09:33 AM _unreal_: heh
09:33 AM _unreal_: thats the whole Idea of a probe LOL
09:33 AM mrec: and centering circles possible
09:33 AM _unreal_: what material
09:33 AM _unreal_: heeh
09:33 AM mrec: the stock? aluminium only
09:33 AM mrec: (at the moment)
09:33 AM _unreal_: !!! DING DING DING.... ok
09:34 AM _unreal_: you dont need a probe
09:34 AM _unreal_: take a broken BIT
09:34 AM _unreal_: so for example something that has a 1/4"-1/8th shank
09:34 AM mrec: I'm just getting started with those things
09:35 AM _unreal_: THE IDEA is you take the bit. and grind off the very END
09:35 AM _unreal_: dont warp it
09:35 AM _unreal_: and grind off meaning get rid of anything that could hurt your collet
09:35 AM _unreal_: then take the bit turn it up side down and put it into you collet
09:36 AM _unreal_: you should now have X amount of stem sticking out
09:37 AM _unreal_: attach your METAL contact alagotor clip to your "probe" if you have one. and ground the other half of your probe setup to the work piece.
09:37 AM mrec: ok my main problem right now is I do a touch off on the stock .. however the milled depth is not 4mm it's something like 4.3mm
09:37 AM _unreal_: ?
09:37 AM mrec: I'm using the endmill and put a paper in between ... but something seems to be not right.
09:38 AM _unreal_: so your milled depth is .3mm deeper then your material
09:38 AM _unreal_: ?
09:38 AM _unreal_: i'm not sure I follow
09:38 AM _unreal_: if your taling about false triggering. then mabeing you need to reverse your wires
09:38 AM _unreal_: or you need a filter
09:39 AM _unreal_: so first you'll want to know is the body of your machine HOT.. and if so at what voltage
09:40 AM _unreal_: use a DMM. DC and AC test. put one probe to your controllers ground and the other to the machine body/xy what ever is making metal contact
09:40 AM _unreal_: touch around see if there are any areas that are hot
09:40 AM _unreal_: the body of your mill what ever mill you have should be directly tied to ground. and if its a BIG mill earth ground
09:41 AM mrec: hmm let's stop here.. I'll do some more tests tomorrow and on Monday and I'll come back after that
09:41 AM _unreal_: ?
09:41 AM mrec: I think I need to do a bit more testing with the machine on the depth cutting to understand what my actual problem with the 0.3mm mismatch is
09:41 AM _unreal_: ?
09:41 AM _unreal_: .3 miss match?
09:42 AM mrec: too deep cut.
09:42 AM _unreal_: WHAT IS your gcode depth setting?
09:42 AM _unreal_: does your code instruct the cut to reach a depth of 4.3mm?
09:42 AM mrec: no 4mm
09:42 AM _unreal_: or does the machine REACH that depth
09:42 AM mrec: it reaches that depth
09:43 AM mrec: I might have some very fundamental operating error there, I will try to set it up again tomorrow and cut more pockets
09:43 AM _unreal_: so then you do not have a step per inch/mm setting issue?
09:43 AM mrec: it's 11:30pm now I can't run it now..
09:43 AM _unreal_: I'm just trying to under stand what your issue is. then I can give a good idea on what to check into
09:44 AM mrec: let me upload the g-code
09:44 AM _unreal_: hehe 11:30 PM where do you live?
09:44 AM _unreal_: I'm in florida so its 10:30am
09:44 AM mrec: I'm in Taiwan.. for over a year now
09:45 AM _unreal_: one of my best friends is chines growing up.. eheh
09:46 AM _unreal_: I guess right off the bat what I'm trying to solve/understand is WHAT is your depth issue issue with 4mm/4.3mm?
09:47 AM mrec: https://pastebin.com/dtyZ8EXS
09:47 AM _unreal_: meaning what is the issue with the depth
09:47 AM _unreal_: what line of code
09:47 AM mrec: the flute is 6mm but was set to 5mm in freecad .. possibly a mouse scroll issue happened and it went back from 6 to 5 on my notebook
09:47 AM mrec: endmill
09:48 AM _unreal_: I would suggest checking out designspark its free and just as powerful as fusion360.
09:48 AM _unreal_: for cad drawing
09:48 AM mrec: wait.. z 4.25 ...
09:48 AM _unreal_: what line
09:48 AM mrec: 25.
09:48 AM mrec: see I need to check all over ...
09:50 AM _unreal_: well the biggest issue is that your going to have a .5mm offset on all of your moves on X/Y it will not affect Z
09:50 AM _unreal_: having the endmill size being set to 1mm smaller
09:51 AM _unreal_: now if your milling something as a 3D object that will affect XY and Z. but anything that is 2d movements only X/Y will be effected
09:51 AM mrec: where do you see that problem?
09:54 AM mrec: Z=4.25 and final Z=1 so ok it would cut 3.25mm no?
09:54 AM mrec: even more wrong because it cut 4.25mm hmmm
09:56 AM _unreal_: what a pain in the asss ok now I can see the gcode file.... so a box wqith diag cuts
09:56 AM _unreal_: so if you want to fix your depth
09:56 AM _unreal_: A: are you using windows or linux?
09:56 AM _unreal_: B: your going to want to use a gui TEXT editor
09:58 AM _unreal_: and do a find/replace. and just enter the string.. Z4.250 and replace with what you need. I believe is 4mm right? so Z4.0
09:58 AM _unreal_: that will change your max depth
09:59 AM _unreal_: oh wait
09:59 AM _unreal_: your probing from the bottom
10:00 AM _unreal_: 4.25 is the top of the material
10:00 AM _unreal_: does not really matter where you probe from.... just as long as you keep in mind where you are doing that from
10:00 AM _unreal_: your working with positive space
10:01 AM _unreal_: looking at the gocde. I would not reccomend doing that. MOST gcode people work in NEG space
10:01 AM _unreal_: meaning Zero is the top of your work area.
10:02 AM _unreal_: I should say. the top of the work area is TOOLING zero. and material bottom is based on your code.
10:02 AM _unreal_: there are advantages and disadvantages
10:02 AM _unreal_: mrec, ?
10:05 AM unterhaus: am I going to regret buying Chinese solder?
10:06 AM _unreal_: likely has LEAD :) the good stuff LOL
10:06 AM _unreal_: or excess rosin LOL
10:07 AM _unreal_: mrec?
10:08 AM _unreal_: I think we lost mrec
10:09 AM mrec: _unreal_: yes I'm using freecad :-)
10:09 AM _unreal_: mrec, ok I'm going to do something real quick
10:09 AM mrec: unterhaus: I can recommend Felder from reichelt
10:09 AM _unreal_: give me the dimentions of your work
10:09 AM _unreal_: X/Y and z
10:09 AM mrec: I'm using that for years, more expensive but really nice.
10:09 AM _unreal_: I'm going to draw it real quick
10:09 AM _unreal_: whats more expensive?
10:09 AM mrec: it's a 5mm box I just cut a random 4mm pocket into it
10:10 AM _unreal_: OK SO 5x5mm 4mm depth
10:10 AM mrec: it's only for testing (and I did it the material is actually 10mm)
10:10 AM mrec: 40x40x5 I think
10:10 AM _unreal_: ???????????????????
10:10 AM mrec: and the pocket was 30x30x4
10:10 AM mrec: that's just how I drew it in freecad
10:10 AM _unreal_: AHHHH ok I was like WAIT wtf 6MM FLUTE, 5mmmx5mm LOL
10:11 AM _unreal_: ok so 30mmx30mm 4mm depth pocket cycle
10:11 AM _unreal_: give me one min.
10:11 AM mrec: _unreal_> whats more expensive? (I was writing about the solder, felder solder from germany)
10:11 AM _unreal_: oh
10:12 AM _unreal_: what is the stock thickness
10:12 AM _unreal_: 10mm?
10:12 AM mrec: _unreal_: 10mm, hey you really don't have to do that I cannot cut anymore today it's over midnight now ;-)
10:12 AM unterhaus: I guess I'll just get kessler
10:14 AM _unreal_: mrec, I can STILL give you an example of code
10:14 AM _unreal_: i'm 99% done
10:14 AM _unreal_: posting in a sec
10:14 AM _unreal_: feed rate 30mm?
10:14 AM _unreal_: and tool size 6mm
10:15 AM mrec: tool size is 6mm yes feed rate let me check
10:15 AM mrec: I used 10mm/sec / 600/min
10:15 AM _unreal_: ok
10:15 AM mrec: I see my problem now so actually the milling was not that bad
10:15 AM _unreal_: and depth per pass?
10:16 AM mrec: the problem is in the g-code and probably touch off issue
10:16 AM mrec: I used 0.75mm depth
10:16 AM jymmmm: morning
10:18 AM _unreal_: mrec, https://pastebin.com/YYhdMFuB
10:19 AM _unreal_: mrec, BE AWARE that code assumes the top of the work material is ZERO
10:20 AM _unreal_: and I have a go to xyz ZERO which would be the bottom LEFT top of your material
10:20 AM mrec: _unreal_: I will use it as a reference and re-do the pocket in freecad
10:20 AM mrec: and also go into the negative space
10:20 AM mrec: I need to get that .25 fixed .. I don't see why it should do that
10:21 AM mrec: I thought it's a touch off issue - which it isn't since it's in the g-code.
10:21 AM _unreal_: hehe I dont use freecad mainly because it complicates cad and cam greatly
10:21 AM mrec: just a matter of getting used
10:21 AM _unreal_: no..... hehehe it works backwards from how most CAD/CAM softwares work flow is designed
10:21 AM mrec: cam can crash it easily
10:22 AM _unreal_: I not trying to POO POO freecad. its just a fact
10:22 AM _unreal_: freecad was designed by people who dont like the 'WORK FLOW" that is almost universal in all cad and cam design software suites
10:23 AM _unreal_: even blender is closer the autocad
10:23 AM mrec: it's still ongoing for sure
10:23 AM _unreal_: mrec, I would STRONGLY suggest looking into designspark. its 100% free
10:24 AM mrec: I have 600mb freecad parts I'm just used to it already
10:24 AM _unreal_: and just as powerful fusion360 WHICH IS FREE but it does not have a CAM feature.
10:24 AM _unreal_: it can not hurt to learn news software
10:24 AM _unreal_: new software
10:24 AM _unreal_: mrec, https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPp1f0dUHlqqTwZCQ32JntR_n59omq5yjLi0sI1AFxK8ghJ-Fgv4MRm1h6_kwMyBw?key=b196bk50Mk9GMFd4ZFBSY0RkclVCVW9QYm0tbWFB
10:25 AM _unreal_: thats just a simple example of some of my work
10:25 AM mrec: I saw that before :-)
10:25 AM _unreal_: the very bottom shows some of my more complex designs that are still on the simple side. no rounds
10:25 AM _unreal_: you can NOT do that kind of work in freecad quickly
10:26 AM mrec: just a matter if you're used to it
10:26 AM _unreal_: I played with freecad for some time. its installed on this computer and my other machine for compatability.
10:27 AM mrec: I have designed a pick and place machine with freecad, but now I'm on the feeders and the feeders I'd like to cut from 12mm aluminium plates
10:27 AM _unreal_: mainly I only use it for importing a few file types and converting. other then that
10:27 AM _unreal_: the spindle mount. on that link of mine at the bottom
10:28 AM _unreal_: how long do you think it would take to draw that?
10:28 AM mrec: I'm also firm with the assembly in freecad (but for sure it's not as comfortable as with other software)
10:28 AM mrec: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPp1f0dUHlqqTwZCQ32JntR_n59omq5yjLi0sI1AFxK8ghJ-Fgv4MRm1h6_kwMyBw/photo/AF1QipPq88nZR5eZHnHCGd9Hg42Xr4ugMzX52mynG1o9?key=b196bk50Mk9GMFd4ZFBSY0RkclVCVW9QYm0tbWFB
10:28 AM mrec: this one?
10:28 AM _unreal_: it took me 2.5 hours to draw and cam it
10:28 AM _unreal_: yes
10:28 AM mrec: well 2.5 hours but you also developed the idea for that within those 2.5hours no?
10:29 AM _unreal_: just taking measurments
10:29 AM mrec: if you give me the blueprint within 1 hour for sure
10:29 AM mrec: but if I need to have the idea and keep changing small things here and there all the time for sure longer
10:29 AM _unreal_: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPp1f0dUHlqqTwZCQ32JntR_n59omq5yjLi0sI1AFxK8ghJ-Fgv4MRm1h6_kwMyBw/photo/AF1QipOHmdPbixi4WrEK9y8rAITWX9TapAeRbP-xQqL5?key=b196bk50Mk9GMFd4ZFBSY0RkclVCVW9QYm0tbWFB
10:30 AM _unreal_: AN HOUR O,o o,O O,o
10:30 AM _unreal_: oh blue prints
10:30 AM mrec: I'm firm with freecad as mentioned
10:31 AM _unreal_: ESTLcam I would reccomend the most when it comes to making cam
10:31 AM mrec: https://i.snipboard.io/3mcAKu.jpg
10:31 AM mrec: I even printed the coupler back then because the aluminium one was on the way ;-)
10:31 AM _unreal_: except for 3d which ESTLCAM does do for the most part ok.. ESTLcam runs circles around every software out there.
10:31 AM _unreal_: especially for the price
10:32 AM mrec: https://snipboard.io/ue2i0t.jpg
10:32 AM _unreal_: ya thats a little bit better then what I got. but then again I built my machine 100% from scratch
10:32 AM mrec: https://snipboard.io/WKIN0J.jpg
10:32 AM _unreal_: pick and place from the looks of it
10:33 AM mrec: yes I'm working on the feeders now.
10:34 AM mrec: it's my first freecad project, so the beginning was a bit difficult
10:34 AM mrec: however after some time I got firm with it
10:35 AM mrec: and also how to get around some issues.. there's a great improvement from fc0.18 to fc0.19 (0.19 is almost not crashing during the design)
10:35 AM mrec: but fc0.19 has lots of issues in the path module for generating g-code
10:37 AM mrec: I already have a pick and place head design for 8 nozzles :-)
10:38 AM _unreal_: LOL ALMOST not crashing
10:39 AM mrec: almost not crashing - means it's really rare now
10:40 AM mrec: intersecting tubes are a problem when refining an object.
10:40 AM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fNUz8yQsjeJA0Uxd1_SwFodAyful3OVN/view?usp=sharing
10:40 AM _unreal_: that one I designed for my daughter
10:40 AM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UnYCdaJ_NkxSoRKrc2QDcyepSrGQf4A3/view?usp=sharing
10:40 AM _unreal_: thats an older photo its working at this oint
10:40 AM _unreal_: not sure where my current photo of it is with all the hardware/wiring
10:41 AM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Bz00KY_vyf7bpVmGr2IJOoPShfQ7zs9V/view?usp=sharing
10:41 AM mrec: I really think the idea behind it is the most difficult part, the drawing isn't.
10:41 AM _unreal_: that I built for my daughter
10:42 AM _unreal_: as you can tell by the flowers and hearts ugh....
10:42 AM mrec: and the more you design the more ideas come up :-)
10:42 AM mrec: haha is she really using that?
10:42 AM mrec: I mean does she show interest in it?
10:42 AM _unreal_: she's about to turn 12
10:42 AM _unreal_: a little bit of interest
10:43 AM mrec: mine is 4 she's sitting next to me when I cut aluminium :-)
10:43 AM _unreal_: I'd have gone COOOCOOOO at her age for it
10:43 AM _unreal_: "ears" ?
10:43 AM _unreal_: as in loud
10:43 AM mrec: it's not so loud 2000 rpm and I don't cut so much at the moment
10:43 AM mrec: 10k rpm I wouldn't like to have her in the room
10:43 AM mrec: but I have no such spindle here anyway
10:44 AM mrec: just funny when I say I'm going to cut she'll put on the protection glasses as if she's just waiting for it
10:44 AM _unreal_: well let me put it to you this way. its good to know a software. its better to know multi softwares. because there is always one that has features that work very well and the other(s) are lacking
10:45 AM _unreal_: hehe
10:45 AM mrec: I used other software in the past, even Autocad
10:45 AM _unreal_: ya my daughter OF ALLL THINGS is more interested in a 600 page book then playing with drawing and doing stuff on the cnc machine
10:45 AM _unreal_: autocad's user base has really fallen off
10:45 AM mrec: I just have done most of my current work with freecad that's why I stick with it
10:46 AM _unreal_: basiclly a lot of what I do is sharing files between software
10:46 AM _unreal_: to use the features that are stronger
10:46 AM mrec: https://howtomechatronics.com/projects/arduino-mecanum-wheels-robot/
10:46 AM mrec: I have printed that one recently, I told her she should assemble the parts with my wife
10:47 AM _unreal_: heh
10:47 AM _unreal_: nifty
10:47 AM mrec: and his scara robot
10:47 AM mrec: so she can lift lego from A to B
10:48 AM mrec: https://howtomechatronics.com/projects/scara-robot-how-to-build-your-own-arduino-based-robot/
10:48 AM _unreal_: currently I'm setting up the next tooling plan for the Z lead screw drive for my new cnc I'm building
10:49 AM _unreal_: I was going to build it one way then got a free part which is perfect so I'm bilding a new HDPE nut
10:49 AM _unreal_: for it. its 90% done just needs the limit switch toucher part which has been driving me COOCOO
10:50 AM _unreal_: non of my software can handle the tooling path when the part is on its side. its @#$@#$@# weird
10:50 AM _unreal_: BUT if I rotate the part and redo ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL my #!@$^@$%&@#$%!@#$!@#$% fixturing. I can get the tool path to come out right. using the SAME settings. its very aggravating
10:51 AM _unreal_: What I really wish is. someone would come up with a GCODE/cad editor. that would let you open gcode like a cad drawing. and select areas to "adjust" there location or flat out DELETE
10:51 AM _unreal_: That would be amazing
10:52 AM _unreal_: if I could do that. that would solve a lot of issues almost instantly
10:53 AM _unreal_: The crazy part is that I could rotate the attack angle of the TOOL and then the tool path works just fine. but its wrong for my machine.
10:54 AM mrec: when did you start to get into linuxcnc?
10:56 AM _unreal_: https://i.imgur.com/kcqNXPu.png
10:56 AM _unreal_: long time ago
10:56 AM _unreal_: I dont really use linuxcnc directly
10:56 AM _unreal_: I have an LCNC setup a 7i96 etc... but lcnc has to many issues
10:56 AM _unreal_: planetcnc is 1000x more mature
10:57 AM _unreal_: and feature rich, mach3 can KISS MY ASS
10:57 AM _unreal_: I'd use turbocnc before using mach3
10:57 AM mrec: first time I installed linuxcnc was maybe 2 weeks ago, I used grbl before
10:57 AM _unreal_: grbl is very G/M code anemic
10:58 AM _unreal_: just NOT a lot it can do... lack of cpu/stroage on the atmel
10:58 AM mrec: I didn't have a suitable controller board here, and it wasn't stable on my stm32f4 boards
10:58 AM mrec: there's a stm32f4 port available.. but well it crashed after a few lines of g-code (even when running it manually)
10:59 AM _unreal_: its not stable in general even a reallly good setup is subject to issues.
10:59 AM _unreal_: LINUXCNC's biggest issue is the UI user interface. its very unstable.
10:59 AM mrec: I used it a year ago on an atmel/arduino board and it was ok
11:00 AM _unreal_: the more features you add shit just has issues.
11:00 AM mrec: ok I might have experienced one such issue some time ago with linuxcnc but overall it seems to be well ahead my knowledge at the moment.
11:00 AM _unreal_: what GUI are you using for lcnc?
11:01 AM mrec: the standard old looking one
11:01 AM _unreal_: axis,
11:01 AM mrec: yes
11:01 AM _unreal_: YA... zero FEATURES
11:01 AM _unreal_: and xyz (xxx) controls are a drop down and +/-....
11:02 AM _unreal_: its more or less a simple gcode sender AXIS is
11:02 AM _unreal_: if you use touchy its a bit better UI imo
11:02 AM perry_j1987: good morning all
11:02 AM _unreal_: much better infact
11:02 AM mrec: first I need to get my basics fixed (including the freecad handling) then I can go forward with other things
11:02 AM _unreal_: but it has some reandom glitches I've found. MAINLY in the direction control
11:03 AM _unreal_: mrec, ya thats where i was saying you really need to work in negative space
11:03 AM _unreal_: working in positive space your 100x more likely to crash into your XY table
11:03 AM mrec: thanks for all the information! it's time for me to go to bed now (1am).
11:04 AM _unreal_: HEHE YA ALMOST NOON here :)
11:04 AM _unreal_: perry_j1987, sup
11:04 AM perry_j1987: hows it goin
11:04 AM _unreal_: very angry at my xwife. other trhen that not to bad
11:04 AM perry_j1987: got my coffee , laptop and a recliner here im rockin the day heh
11:05 AM _unreal_: I'm trying to NOT take action and start un-doing my setup
11:05 AM _unreal_: have to re mount shit so I can finish the last part I need to mill
11:05 AM _unreal_: :(
11:05 AM _unreal_: non of my cad software can handle the damn 3d milling job I have unless I rotate it. its just mind blowing
11:05 AM Tom_L: procrastinating?
11:06 AM _unreal_: I rotate it 90 degree's for TOWN down and the tool path generation is perfect. I use the same sttings in the current orientation which is on its side just doing one half at a time two times and I cant even generate the tool path just totally fails with the same settings
11:06 AM _unreal_: we dont say that word around here ;)
11:08 AM Tom_L: what does 90 deg matter?
11:09 AM Tom_L: cad shouldn't care
11:09 AM perry_j1987: so im seeing servo drivers that are pwm or step/dir based
11:09 AM Tom_L: step is pwm
11:10 AM _unreal_: perry_j1987, there is PWM, step/dir, and quadrature drive
11:10 AM _unreal_: and serial
11:11 AM _unreal_: your going to want step/dir, or quadrature. serial would be a question for pcw about the mesa's
11:11 AM _unreal_: step/dir is going to e your least brain pain direction
11:12 AM _unreal_: :)
11:16 AM perry_j1987: then there's torque vs velocity im seeing?
11:19 AM Tom_L: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/30289-velocity-vs-torque-mode
11:22 AM _unreal_: torque=HEAT
11:23 AM _unreal_: velocity got to watch for lost steps/line count
11:23 AM _unreal_: but thats IF your going faster then the encoder can read. NOT likely
11:23 AM _unreal_: hehe
11:23 AM perry_j1987: darn there was cheap pair of drives i found but they are torque drives
11:23 AM _unreal_: ?
11:24 AM _unreal_: all your really looking for is power
11:24 AM _unreal_: ERR no let me re try that
11:25 AM _unreal_: all your really looking for is MAX read rate. and MAX current. other then that its no more then PID tuning and setting the max values the controller will express on the DC servo
11:25 AM perry_j1987: im less than 24 hours into ever researching servos all new to me
11:26 AM perry_j1987: fighting the urge to put my steppers on it haha
11:26 AM _unreal_: so max 2 amps continues or static, or 8amps for .5 seconds burst RAPID just for example
11:26 AM _unreal_: servo's its getting past the setup
11:26 AM _unreal_: beyond that its just "" step dir ""
11:27 AM _unreal_: its the PID that is daunting
11:27 AM _unreal_: and in any case
11:27 AM _unreal_: thats why I was suggesting looking for a servo controller that has built in auto tuning
11:28 AM _unreal_: it litteraly just shakes the motors around and does moves and stuff. then reads the values and current draw etc... based on the working values of the motors.
11:29 AM _unreal_: there was a kickstarter controller that was like $50-80 each with lots of amazing reviews. forget the name
11:30 AM _unreal_: found it https://hackaday.io/project/9433-brushed-dc-servo-drive
11:31 AM _unreal_: perry_j1987, ?
11:31 AM _unreal_: https://www.crowdsupply.com/citrus-cnc/tarocco
11:32 AM _unreal_: not bad at all $55
11:32 AM perry_j1987: ya that sounds nice
11:32 AM perry_j1987: any cons?
11:33 AM _unreal_: you'd have to do some research on them. I was looking at them but was beyond broke.
11:33 AM _unreal_: I was going to buy them but ended up building the ve7it drivesr which i'm not using
11:34 AM _unreal_: all in all I prob would have been better off just getting those...
11:34 AM _unreal_: the main issue with the ve7it setup is they are quadrature input instead of step/dir.
11:34 AM perry_j1987: from 2017 looks like
11:35 AM perry_j1987: still available?
11:35 AM _unreal_: looks like it
11:35 AM _unreal_: the hack aday page has the PCB art and code from the looks of it
11:35 AM perry_j1987: worth the 55 but i am setup for making custom boards too...
11:36 AM _unreal_: same here
11:36 AM _unreal_: though dbl sided boards are a bit more trouble
11:36 AM perry_j1987: na those are fun
11:37 AM _unreal_: my laminating machine is AMAZING for toner transfer
11:37 AM perry_j1987: if you arnt setup for plating vias
11:37 AM perry_j1987: little tip
11:37 AM perry_j1987: go to jo ann fabrics
11:37 AM perry_j1987: they sell brass pins for sewing
11:37 AM perry_j1987: that fit perfectly into via holes and the heads are no bigger than via pads
11:38 AM perry_j1987: solder right in and clip them off with end snips
11:39 AM _unreal_: I have this one https://www.amazon.com/Ibico-Commercial-Laminator-Sealer-Machine/dp/B00AWJFQ4E
11:39 AM _unreal_: that is one I didnt know
11:39 AM _unreal_: THAT laminator though is just mmmmwwaaaaaa
11:41 AM perry_j1987: ya im setup for toner transfer or photoresist
11:41 AM _unreal_: I use the blue transfer paper. so print the PCB onto the blue transfer then tape the two halfs together then tape them to two sheets of paper. and feet it
11:41 AM _unreal_: that laminator can adjust down a lot. sull 2mm pcb fits
11:41 AM _unreal_: so
11:42 AM _unreal_: 4MM will go. but if the board is to small the rollers flex under the tension of the springs
11:43 AM _unreal_: When I get that laser etcher. I'm thinking it would be amzing to do some LASER etchings
11:43 AM _unreal_: take blue die, and acetone wipe the PCB. and burn away the trace's :)
11:47 AM perry_j1987: aye
11:51 AM Tom_L: i never liked the blue paper
11:52 AM perry_j1987: i use pages out of magazines for toner transfer heh
11:52 AM Tom_L: photo paper
11:52 AM perry_j1987: but i switched to photoresist long time ago
11:52 AM Tom_L: costs more and takes longer
11:52 AM perry_j1987: better yield though
11:53 AM perry_j1987: smaller trace capability as well
11:53 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/etching/etch3.jpg
11:53 AM Tom_L: etch tank
11:54 AM Tom_L: don't do boards much anymore
11:54 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/etching/Copper2.jpg
11:55 AM Tom_L: plenty of stock though
11:55 AM roycroft: i haven't spent much time attempting toner transfer, but what little experience i have leaves me with the impression that it's way too fiddly to be able to get consistent results
11:55 AM roycroft: which is why i'm giving laser resist etching a go
11:55 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/etching/etch8.jpg
11:55 AM perry_j1987: i use cupric chloride for etching
11:55 AM Tom_L: i had good luck
11:55 AM Tom_L: sodium or ammonium persulphate
11:55 AM Tom_L: i tried both
11:56 AM perry_j1987: ya toner is good for one off boards where you can do it a few times until it works heh
11:56 AM Tom_L: FECL3 sucks
11:56 AM Tom_L: i used to have an article on cupric chloride but dunno where it went
11:56 AM roycroft: and for pcbs that might be fine - they're fairly cheap
11:57 AM Tom_L: it's about as easy to go to a fab shop now
11:57 AM roycroft: but if you're trying to etch brass sheet it gets expensive to "experiment"
11:57 AM perry_j1987: so what do you guys think of these https://www.crowdsupply.com/citrus-cnc/tarocco
11:58 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/temp/tiny/tinyboard1.jpg
11:58 AM Tom_L: that's about the finest i ever did
11:58 AM Tom_L: SOT23-6
11:58 AM _unreal_: ok enough with the @!#@#$%#%3 procrastinating just finished re-setting up my @#%@!#$ part
11:58 AM perry_j1987: ya i made a lot of boards SOT23 components
11:59 AM _unreal_: perry_j1987, blue paper you mean the plastic sheet transfer right?
11:59 AM perry_j1987: made up a bunch of SOT23 boards with header pins to use in breadboards too for prototyping
11:59 AM perry_j1987: can just use reflow gun to throw a component on there that i want to play with some ideas etc
11:59 AM perry_j1987: _unreal_ i never used the bluepaper just magazine pages
11:59 AM perry_j1987: until i got setup for photoresist
12:00 PM Tom_L: i got a whole pack of it here somewhere. if i find it, it's getting tossed
12:00 PM roycroft: i think one of the reasons my results have not been so good, tom_l, is that my masks are the opposite to yours
12:00 PM _unreal_: perry_j1987, https://www.techniks.com/how_to.htm
12:00 PM _unreal_: I use that stuff
12:00 PM _unreal_: the BLUE pulls away from the over head plastic, you just print it in your laser printer
12:00 PM roycroft: i'm etching fine lines and lettering, so 99% of my sheets are unetched
12:01 PM roycroft: you're etching almost everything away
12:01 PM Tom_L: roycroft, yeah large areas are hard to mask
12:01 PM _unreal_: ?
12:01 PM _unreal_: I've always left as much copper as possible
12:01 PM Tom_L: if you're making something like a stencil it's alot tougher
12:01 PM roycroft: in my experiments with toner transfer i'd spend an hour touching up pinholes every time
12:01 PM _unreal_: I never have to touch up anything
12:01 PM _unreal_: I should post some photoos
12:02 PM Tom_L: a trick to that is use tape on most of it
12:02 PM roycroft: also, in my application, if i do have an area that's not masked properly it's a disaster
12:02 PM _unreal_: just print. heat transfer with the laminator, cool it under cold water then pull
12:02 PM _unreal_: the toner and blue shit peel away
12:02 PM _unreal_: perfect sharp lines
12:02 PM roycroft: not necessarily the case with a pcb
12:02 PM roycroft: as long as it's like a pinhole
12:02 PM _unreal_: etch. and acetone wash
12:03 PM roycroft: most of the trace will still remain, and in most cases will probably work fine
12:03 PM _unreal_: I can so ultra fine SMT
12:03 PM roycroft: i'll start experimenting with the laser after i get my next couple small projects done
12:03 PM roycroft: i still have to figure out what to use for masking material
12:04 PM roycroft: someone told me that flat black spray paint works well
12:04 PM _unreal_: one sec posting a photo
12:04 PM roycroft: that seems like an interesting thing to try
12:05 PM Tom_L: roycroft, just make sure whatever you use isn't affected by the etchant
12:06 PM roycroft: yes, i'll experiment with that before i ever hook up the laser
12:06 PM roycroft: the substrate should not matter, so i can use aluminium shet instead of brass sheet for the initial experiments
12:06 PM Tom_L: UV laser then use UV paint
12:06 PM Tom_L: i used UV paint on my programmer cases
12:08 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aYILERdocRd5T1CED8Gd_wo7nIsTcf3B/view?usp=sharing
12:08 PM _unreal_: artwork was done in kicad
12:09 PM _unreal_: there is an ERROR at the top middle left, that was my fault I litteraly scratched the artwork
12:10 PM _unreal_: so that was a bit of sharpy love
12:10 PM _unreal_: thats what the press-n-peel stuff does for ya
12:11 PM _unreal_: super crisp lines
12:11 PM _unreal_: the only thing better then that stuff is photo resist
12:12 PM _unreal_: ??? quiet
12:13 PM JT-Cave: anyone want to try my 7i96 deb? https://github.com/jethornton/7i96/raw/master/deb_dist/python3-c7i96_1.1-1_all.deb
12:13 PM _unreal_: also I have a tank/bubbler setup like yours Tom_L . I found it useless after I learned the zipit bag trick
12:15 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, gimme a sec
12:15 PM JT-Cave: ok
12:15 PM _unreal_: with the zipit bag trick I can etch a board like that one which is 2.7"x4" in 5-15min max
12:15 PM _unreal_: the trick is to use two ziplock bags.
12:16 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, config tool for that board?
12:16 PM _unreal_: the first bag, I put a splash of ferric chloride. nad I mean JUST enough to get the board wet from one end to the other
12:16 PM _unreal_: take most of the air out of the bag and zip it. THEN put that bag into an other ziplock bag
12:17 PM JT-Cave: yes
12:17 PM _unreal_: and just start moving it a bit
12:18 PM _unreal_: saves on etching solution, gets it done fast and makes clean up a snap. Throw away the bag rinse the board and go from there
12:18 PM _unreal_: I typically can get two-3 etchings before the etchent is spent in the zip lock bag as wel :)
12:18 PM _unreal_: any of you guys ever done that?
12:19 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, rpi or doesn't matter?
12:20 PM JT-Cave: I've not tried it on the rpi so dunno
12:20 PM roycroft: i reluctantly put those two on /ignore, tom_l, so that i won't succumb to the troll bait any more
12:21 PM roycroft: hopefully that will reduce your need to turn off logging
12:21 PM Tom_L: how do you execute it?
12:21 PM Tom_L: seems like it installed ok
12:21 PM roycroft: raspian installs .deb files just like standard debian
12:22 PM Tom_L: i know
12:22 PM Tom_L: not sure what he called the config tool
12:22 PM roycroft: oh, i see
12:23 PM Tom_L: ok it adds it to the cnc menu
12:23 PM Tom_L: nice
12:23 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, looks like it works
12:23 PM _unreal_: is that for rpi4?
12:23 PM Tom_L: it's for any install
12:23 PM _unreal_: oH...
12:24 PM JT-Cave: well 2.8 and up the 7i96 is not supported for 2.7
12:24 PM Tom_L: what's special about the 7i96?
12:24 PM Tom_L: is it that all in one card?
12:26 PM JT-Cave: yea, ethernet stepper card
12:26 PM Tom_L: looks that way
12:26 PM Tom_L: so now you need to add a 'how to make a deb' to your webpage :)
12:26 PM JT-Cave: https://mesaus.com/product/7i96/
12:26 PM Tom_L: yeah i'm looking at it
12:27 PM _unreal_: the 7i96 has a lot of features and the buffer chips
12:27 PM _unreal_: to protect I/O
12:27 PM JT-Cave: yea, going to do it a few more times to make sure I'm not missing anything that hung me up for the last few weeks little shit can really hose the process
12:27 PM * JT-Cave thinks it's nap time...
12:27 PM _unreal_: !@#$%^!#@$@#$!@#$ SOOOOOOOO slow
12:28 PM _unreal_: god this netbook is slow
12:28 PM Tom_L: devil's in the details
12:28 PM Tom_L: i tell my kids that all the time
12:36 PM _unreal_: yep I was afraid of that..... fusion360's WCS is such a pain in the ass at times
12:36 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, mesaflash is integrated with it?
12:36 PM _unreal_: AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH..................................................... nooooooooooooooooooo wonder!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12:36 PM _unreal_: GOD DAMN IT what a fool
12:36 PM Tom_L: not necessary
12:36 PM _unreal_: I've been going nuts with this cad drawing
12:36 PM Tom_L: you've finally come to the realisation
12:36 PM _unreal_: the cad drawing is 12.7 depth. my work material is 19.05 depth
12:36 PM _unreal_: FAAAAACK
12:41 PM _unreal_: great now I have to solve the ratio
12:41 PM _unreal_: for scaling
12:41 PM _unreal_: going from 12.7mm to 19.05
12:42 PM unterhaus: I mistakenly d/l JT's deb, now I have to buy a 7i96, them's the rules
12:43 PM unterhaus: oh, I thought it was 12" vs 19", mm is a little different
12:45 PM unterhaus: I'm sure I could clear 19", but it would be a bit scary
12:47 PM _unreal_: My new cnc will pull 18x31" and about 10" plunge
12:47 PM _unreal_: when its finished
12:48 PM _unreal_: unterhaus, I have one :) they are nice
12:49 PM unterhaus: heard too many stories of people tipping their bridgeport over while machining engine blocks
12:49 PM unterhaus: that's got to be a fun time
12:49 PM _unreal_: no thats breaking OSHA rules and not bolting your machine to the ground as its required to be
12:50 PM _unreal_: OMG..... slow netbook
12:50 PM _unreal_: waiting for it to open the OPEN folder so I can load the updated nc file
12:51 PM _unreal_: nothing like CLICK and wait
01:05 PM perry_j1987: back
01:05 PM perry_j1987: spaghetti for lunch yum
01:13 PM _unreal_: now I want ramon
01:14 PM perry_j1987: heh
01:16 PM _unreal_: ok...... ONE MORE TRY
01:16 PM _unreal_: working on getting the gcode correct
01:20 PM * Tom_L gives _unreal_ a text editor
01:21 PM _unreal_: fusion always adds this extra gcode that drives my z in odd directions
01:21 PM Tom_L: fix the post
01:22 PM _unreal_: I did
01:22 PM _unreal_: fusion just had a HUGE update. they fixed my fix
01:26 PM _unreal_: finally ITS MILLING and I'm happy
01:34 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L, no mesaflash is not part of the configuration tool
01:34 PM _unreal_: sounds like the lower bearing in my new spindle is starting to fail I'M NOT suprised
01:34 PM _unreal_: if any of you remember me mentioning it getting hot when I first got it
01:34 PM JT-Shop: unterhaus, did you test it?
01:35 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, it just looked like there was a place to flash the firmware
01:37 PM perry_j1987: so it looks like i could use a BOB and couple g320x drivers to get this lathe up and running?
01:41 PM _unreal_: I'm REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLY thinking about wiping out the win10 and loading win xp to that netbook if I can
01:41 PM _unreal_: dont know if there are drivers for it though
01:41 PM _unreal_: its native win7
01:44 PM JT-Cave: perry_j1987, yes for a small servo setup one board goes in the pc and one in the drive cabinet
01:45 PM JT-Cave: Tom_L, yes you can flash the 7i96 from the configuration tool but you must have mesaflash installed
01:47 PM JT-Cave: to use the g320x all you need is the 7i96 as the g320x takes step/direction inputs
02:02 PM _unreal_: ok....... there is some WEIRD shit going on with this netboo
02:03 PM _unreal_: keeps pausing the work and now it just moved the Z in a non planned motion. not even in the code and just fucked up my work
02:03 PM _unreal_: I can fix it but WTF
02:03 PM _unreal_: I just did a hard reset becuase it locked up so hard
02:04 PM _unreal_: I really dont understand it
02:13 PM _unreal_: hum.... I wonder if it has a windows virus?
02:13 PM _unreal_: it keeps chugging
02:33 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, that's what i was wondering
02:34 PM perry_j1987: what would the 7i96 do above and beyond a parallel BOB?
02:34 PM Tom_L: using the parallel port is going to be slow
02:35 PM Tom_L: the fpga on the mesa cards takes care of alot of the heavy lifting
02:36 PM JT-Shop: you get a lot of I/O with the 7i96
02:36 PM JT-Shop: the parallel port only has so many outputs...
02:37 PM perry_j1987: not too much thats needed for a 2 axis lathe though?
02:37 PM JT-Shop: a cheap bob may get you up and running faster
02:37 PM JT-Shop: using the stepper configuration tool
02:38 PM * Tom_L wonders if JT-Shop is making wood chips today
02:38 PM JT-Shop: I've done step and direction right from the parallel port but don't recommend it
02:38 PM gregcnc: no effort in setting up the PC with a mesa card
02:38 PM JT-Shop: not yet, fixing to head out to the other shop
02:38 PM Tom_L: gregcnc, for most :)
02:38 PM JT-Shop: ROFLMAO
02:38 PM perry_j1987: that 7i96 the one used with raspberry pi 4?
02:39 PM gregcnc: chasing odd issues for parport stepping can be a pain
02:39 PM Tom_L: perry_j1987, you can
02:39 PM Tom_L: it's ethernet
02:39 PM perry_j1987: ok thats looking intriguing
02:39 PM JT-Shop: it's an ethernet card not specific to anything but you must use LinuxCNC Uspace running the preempt kernel
02:40 PM JT-Shop: and version 2.8 of lcnc
02:40 PM perry_j1987: right now my pc is an gigabyte ga350n board
02:40 PM Tom_L: buster with 2.8 on the rpi4 seems like an ok solution
02:41 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L, I demoed the range target thing with the rpi4 and a 7i96
02:41 PM Tom_L: :)
02:42 PM perry_j1987: it seems like it'd be nice to use rpi4. less moving parts, fans, psu deaths etc
02:42 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Rpi4/Rpi4_top.jpg
02:42 PM Tom_L: keeps it plenty cool
02:43 PM Tom_L: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07XTQL6YZ/
02:43 PM Tom_L: https://www.amazon.com/Metal-Raspberry-Heatsink-Thermal-Adhesive/dp/B07VMD25SK
02:43 PM Tom_L: that's what i went with
02:44 PM Tom_L: unless you've already got a setup
02:44 PM enleth: I'm actually trying to find an ARM SBPC comparable to rpi4 that is *not* rpi4, to test it with an ethernet Mesa card, just out of my personal disgust towards those Broadcom SoCs
02:44 PM buzzmarshall: lol
02:45 PM Tom_L: enleth, capn mentioned something ... maybe orange pi? i dunno
02:45 PM enleth: but the time of ARM-based LinuxCNC computers definitely has come
02:45 PM enleth: and it's a good thing
02:45 PM Tom_L: i look at the pc/pi as a dedicated controller for a machine and use it that way mostly
02:46 PM Tom_L: the rpi4 seems to do that fine
02:46 PM perry_j1987: the whole thing with the rpi4 was the direct access gigabit right?
02:47 PM Tom_L: i dunno, i haven't followed it that close
02:47 PM perry_j1987: i mean for using it with mesa cards
02:47 PM JT-Shop: that and memory
02:47 PM perry_j1987: previous models had ethernet through a usb hub onboard
02:48 PM enleth: perry_j1987: mostly, yes - previous versions had an internal USB ethernet adapter
02:48 PM Tom_L: oh, yeah
02:48 PM _unreal_: after all that my height is not high enough sigh....
02:48 PM _unreal_: at least THAT I can fix with just changing the height of the limit switch
02:50 PM gregcnc: I'm rolling the dice..sending a package to the UK via mail......
03:02 PM unterhaus: A German speaker used an auto translator to get "massive" when he meant solid
03:15 PM perry_j1987: cheaper drives than g320x options?
03:28 PM enleth: perry_j1987: a used g320x
03:28 PM gregcnc: not many. https://granitedevices.com/oldsite/vsde-dualdc-servo
03:28 PM enleth: it's cheap already, you can't go much lower than that
03:32 PM enleth: not sure if that's the case for stepper drives, but used servo drives are plenty and extremely cheap on ebay
03:37 PM unterhaus: what was wrong with the leadshine?
03:42 PM perry_j1987: used drives im seeing on ebay all say for brushless servo
03:42 PM gregcnc: many will run dc motors
03:42 PM JT-Cave: perry_j1987, did you look to see if you have analog drives now?
03:43 PM perry_j1987: the current drives are in an all in one board of some kind
03:43 PM perry_j1987: http://support.technocnc.com/pdf/0229_LC_and_Lathe_Board-Callouts-Connectors.pdf this thing
03:45 PM _unreal_: sweet it works
03:45 PM _unreal_: so my new Z limit switch thing that I've been FIGHTING for 3 @!#$@#$@#$@#%@#%@#$@#%$ days now is done and works
03:45 PM perry_j1987: gratz
03:45 PM _unreal_: next step is milling the aluminum mounting base
03:46 PM _unreal_: but I cant do that shit till I get back to work :(
03:46 PM _unreal_: becuase the part I need is stuck at work
03:46 PM _unreal_: already made the cad drawings
03:46 PM gregcnc: seems like there were a lot more cheap AMC drives on thEbay a few years ago
03:47 PM _unreal_: there was a LOT more cheap everything on amazon, ebay, ali...... 5 months ago
03:48 PM _unreal_: thats part of why I got that laser etcher that I did. its not the one I wanted. its the size of the one I wanted. but the one I wanted dosent even exist riht now
03:48 PM gregcnc: i don't mean china stuff, I mean industrial surplus
03:48 PM _unreal_: lol, very little industrial surplus does NOT have strong roots in china
03:48 PM _unreal_: unless its american made
03:49 PM gregcnc: wot?
03:51 PM _unreal_: ?
03:52 PM perry_j1987: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Precision-PVA-B12A6D-PV2-Brushless-PWM-Servo-Amplifier/303518770370 like this?
03:54 PM _unreal_: interesting, never see this one before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIgIz47WK7Y
03:54 PM _unreal_: perry_j1987, thats brushless
03:54 PM _unreal_: does it support brushed?
03:54 PM perry_j1987: gregcnc said many will run lol
03:55 PM _unreal_: WHAT!!! look at the motor DUDE!!
03:55 PM _unreal_: err controller
03:55 PM gregcnc: RTFM?
03:55 PM _unreal_: better check the manual. that thing only list's brushless
03:56 PM _unreal_: and no details for mode change if it supports it
03:56 PM _unreal_: brushless has 3 motor wires, brushed has 2 motor wires.
03:56 PM _unreal_: brushless really has 9 wires
03:57 PM _unreal_: 3 for motor, 4 for hall sensors, 4 for encoder 11 sorry
03:57 PM gregcnc: i have "brushless" AMC dirves on my DC servos
03:58 PM gregcnc: AMC changed the website I don't even see manuals for the old stuff
03:58 PM _unreal_: I see nothing that talks about being able to support DC. there is no reason brushless cant "" support "" brushed so long as it has the code in the uC of the motor controller
03:59 PM gregcnc: blah blah blah. I have them RUNNING
03:59 PM _unreal_: LOL
04:00 PM perry_j1987: i'll be back later
04:00 PM perry_j1987: going to rotate tires on my truck
04:00 PM perry_j1987: maybe stare at the lathe a bit
04:00 PM perry_j1987: lol
04:00 PM _unreal_: HEH
04:00 PM _unreal_: ya like I said I'd suggest thinking about that motor controller I linked you to before
04:00 PM _unreal_: unless you can find something else.
04:01 PM gregcnc: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiomvnynP7tAhXRKs0KHTO0C2AQFjADegQIAhAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.a-m-c.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsupport%2Freserved%2FAMC_HWManual_Analog_Panel.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0Na6ObyapUy6Xj1K4abul_
04:01 PM gregcnc: oops
04:01 PM gregcnc: https://www.a-m-c.com/wp-content/uploads/support/reserved/AMC_HWManual_Analog_Panel.pdf
04:01 PM _unreal_: on ebay what have you. a lot of places mislable BRUSHED and brushless controllers as well FYI........... be sure to dbl check that what ever drive you get is capable of brushless
04:01 PM _unreal_: and not just someone trying to sell shit and disapear
04:02 PM gregcnc: always read the manual to be sure it will do what you need
04:02 PM seb_kuzm1nsky is now known as seb_kuzminsky
04:04 PM gregcnc: the only thing that worries me about some of the rebranded drives is you don't know what options or modifications the customer chose
04:05 PM perry_j1987: B12A6D like this model number
04:05 PM perry_j1987: some say brush/brushless and others just brushless same model number
04:05 PM perry_j1987: diff brands
04:06 PM _unreal_: gregcnc, like Isaid it totally depends on the uC inside
04:06 PM _unreal_: hardware wise there is no differnce
04:06 PM gregcnc: well sure, but you don't need to read the firmware to fingure it out, there are manuals
04:06 PM _unreal_: other then having two extra h bridges for the 3 phases
04:07 PM _unreal_: """""""""<gregcnc> the only thing that worries me about some of the rebranded drives is you don't know what options or modifications the customer chose""""""""""""""
04:08 PM _unreal_: again that one I dont see jumpers.
04:08 PM _unreal_: the ebay one
04:08 PM gregcnc: if it only does DC it won't be marked brushless....
04:08 PM gregcnc: try the manual
04:10 PM _unreal_: thats what I was looking for in the manula ya posted couldnt find where it talked about choosing brush or brushless
04:12 PM gregcnc: p48
04:13 PM unterhaus: I was looking at prices for amc drives and thinking I should sell some. Also Copely, same thing
04:14 PM unterhaus: I think all of the AMC drives will work on dc brushed motors
04:14 PM unterhaus: except maybe the dsp
04:16 PM gregcnc: I finally figured out how to get into the setup with a password in my Emco machines. i'm thinking about switching out the steppers
04:17 PM _unreal_: gregcnc, the other thing is that controller does not seem to support quadrature encoder
04:17 PM gregcnc: so access to the step increment could be useful, but I haven't tried changing anything yet.
04:17 PM gregcnc: with Mesa the encoder goes to the card
04:18 PM _unreal_: ? I thought pcw said mesa cards dont read motor encoders, only MPG encoders
04:20 PM sinned6915: gregcnc: do you know anything about these motor drivers?
04:20 PM sinned6915: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07MQSC7QX/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A2HIRA0BE7P4NT&psc=1
04:22 PM sinned6915: the speed control is really 0-5V, so they use a voltage divider to attenuate the 0-10V signal. Seems kinda jankedity
04:28 PM unterhaus: I would need to see a manual. Will drive anything under 2kw as long as it's not capacitive
04:29 PM sinned6915: i need one of the hgher voltage servo amps but i dont see many out there.
04:30 PM unterhaus: for a dc motor?
04:30 PM sinned6915: as in 150-190VDC output
04:30 PM sinned6915: yes
04:30 PM unterhaus: as long as it has the current you need, you will just lose some speed
04:31 PM gregcnc: plenty of line voltage drives out there
04:33 PM sinned6915: an AMC 20A20 or BE25A would be ideal for my application
04:33 PM _unreal_: sinned6915, I have an extra high power DC contoller
04:33 PM _unreal_: if your inteested? and in usa
04:33 PM sinned6915: gregcnc: can you recommend any that I can research?
04:34 PM gregcnc: virtually any supplier
04:34 PM gregcnc: parker is the only one I looked into recently
04:35 PM sinned6915: gregcnc: i looked into KBC type drives but i was concerned about isolating the drive and protecting the motor
04:35 PM sinned6915: gregcnc: do you know if it is possible to use a parker similarly to the AMC's?
04:35 PM gregcnc: I read a lot of manuals
04:35 PM unterhaus: I don't think you want something like a kbc
04:35 PM _unreal_: I have a
04:36 PM _unreal_: kbbc-24m
04:36 PM _unreal_: https://www.galco.com/buy/KB-Electronics/KBBC-24M
04:36 PM sinned6915: unterhaus: that was my conclusion as well. that DM103AH unit read similarly to the KBC's I was looking at
04:37 PM unterhaus: that's what I was thinking, it's meant to work with a pot
04:37 PM sinned6915: the Anahaim BLDC units looked promising but did not have enough native current capacity
04:38 PM sinned6915: VESC was also curious, but I think would top out on spindle rpms
04:38 PM unterhaus: isn't Parker big $ though?
04:38 PM unterhaus: I think most u.s. drive makers are so expensive it would pay just to by brushless drive/amp from china
04:38 PM sinned6915: actually, is anyone aware if VESC's ahve been impleimented with lcnc?
04:38 PM _unreal_: LOL supports upto 80 amps for 7 seconds heheh
04:39 PM gregcnc: this is for servo spindle?
04:39 PM sinned6915: brushed DC spindle
04:39 PM _unreal_: sinned6915, did you see what I posted?
04:39 PM sinned6915: i can not figure out the original tyristor circuit as of yet to reuse
04:39 PM unterhaus: are you servoing it though?
04:40 PM unterhaus: mesa makes a little board that interfaces with the thyristor type drives like kbc
04:40 PM sinned6915: _unreal_ thanks but that does not work for me
04:40 PM sinned6915: unterhaus: do you recal board number by chance? or in what catagory i might find it?
04:42 PM sinned6915: its currently brushed DC that I am adding a shaft encoder to
04:42 PM unterhaus: spin1 pwm
04:42 PM unterhaus: spinx1 pwm
04:43 PM sinned6915: servo amp seemed to be the best way
04:43 PM unterhaus: http://store.mesanet.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=205&search=SPINx1
04:43 PM _unreal_: sinned6915, oh so you need a servo controller
04:43 PM _unreal_: ya this thing as is would be better as a spindle control
04:43 PM unterhaus: servo amp probably is the best way if you have an encoder
04:44 PM _unreal_: there are setups that you could use a PIC or atmel controller to read an encoder and drive a brushed controller
04:44 PM _unreal_: but more work then its worth to just buy the proper designed hardware
04:44 PM sinned6915: unterhaus: thanks. i never seem to be able to find stuff on mesanet
04:44 PM unterhaus: I wish it was easier to put one of the 2kw servo motors I have in place of the 2hp motor on my bp
04:45 PM unterhaus: I just stumbled on that because I was looking for the encoder differential to single ended adapters
04:45 PM _unreal_: sinned6915, what is the power range your looking for
04:46 PM unterhaus: last time I looked the thyristor drives were really cheap on ebay, but that has been a while
04:46 PM unterhaus: someone was selling bare boards, which is a really exciting thing
04:46 PM sinned6915: unterhaus: so that board is interesting.
04:47 PM sinned6915: unterhaus: i may dig into this exsiting circuit then.
04:47 PM unterhaus: does it work at all?
04:48 PM unterhaus: "dig in" doesn't seem to be indicating the proper safety protocol for those things :)
04:48 PM _unreal_: w...............t.......................f..................... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSq3y1WzfK0
04:48 PM _unreal_: got to skip to like 2min
04:49 PM unterhaus: Bobby, have you ever seen how far 320v can arc?
04:50 PM _unreal_: I feel dumber for watching 60 seconds of that
04:54 PM sinned6915: unterhaus: i dont know, its got me stumped. i will document it more and see what i can figure out.
04:57 PM Thorhian: Well, I have had an interesting day working on my CNC mill. I made a new spindle motor mount to replace the 3D printed one I was using and installed it today.
04:58 PM Thorhian: Then, when I turn on the machine and go to home the Z axis, my Z axis motor just stops working and I getting an alarm on my stepper driver. 4 flashes.
04:59 PM Thorhian: What's really annoying is that I have no clue what is wrong since the manual for the driver only lists cases for 1,2,3, and 5 flashes.
04:59 PM _unreal_: LOL
04:59 PM _unreal_: no 4 for you
05:00 PM _unreal_: did you disconnect any wires
05:00 PM _unreal_: wires to the stepper motor?
05:00 PM _unreal_: did you have to remove/reinstall the motor for you Z?
05:01 PM _unreal_: with no info. that sounds to me like a wiring issue, likely 1 wires not connected
05:01 PM _unreal_: maybe a break in a wire
05:02 PM Thorhian: I just emailed Stepperonline for some help before I do anything crazy. I turned the whole machine off but it keeps doing it. I'll doible check the wires. The motor is stationary, and there wasn't any overlap between the Z axis and the wires connecting the motor.
05:02 PM _unreal_: I had an issue burn up a motor controller few years ago. turned out I forgot to screw down ONE damn terminal and that motor controller didnt have any kind of protection
05:02 PM _unreal_: First I would take a DMM if you can access the wires and check that you have a connection between all of your wires
05:03 PM _unreal_: DID you move the stepper motor did you touch it in any way?
05:03 PM Thorhian: Nope
05:03 PM _unreal_: well things dont just change on there own noramlly
05:03 PM Thorhian: It was working and then it cut off towards the top of it's travel.
05:03 PM _unreal_: did you touch the wires move the wires
05:03 PM Thorhian: Nope.
05:03 PM _unreal_: could you have elbowed a wire
05:04 PM _unreal_: oh so it WAS working then just stopped
05:04 PM _unreal_: does the wire going to that motor run in a drag chain or anything
05:04 PM _unreal_: or is it totaally statioary
05:04 PM Thorhian: Nope. Like I said, the motor is stationary.
05:05 PM _unreal_: then I would unplug the motor, check OHMS
05:05 PM _unreal_: Ohms on the stepper motor make sure the windings are showing the proper ohms.
05:05 PM _unreal_: if so. then the issue is going to e in your wire going to the motor or the motor controller
05:06 PM Thorhian: Not sure what the proper ohms would be.
05:06 PM _unreal_: look up your stepper motor
05:06 PM _unreal_: or just start metering
05:06 PM _unreal_: bipolar right?
05:06 PM _unreal_: if so then both should have the same value
05:06 PM Thorhian: Yeah, 4 wire.
05:07 PM _unreal_: could be a bad connection
05:07 PM _unreal_: you never had smoke right
05:07 PM _unreal_: no smoke then nothing should SHOULD... be burnt out
05:08 PM Thorhian: I didn't see any smoke or smell anything. I better double check for any signs though.
05:08 PM Thorhian: Phase resistance would be the spec that I'm looking for right?
05:09 PM _unreal_: yes
05:09 PM _unreal_: prob .5-4 ohms
05:09 PM _unreal_: JUST a guess
05:09 PM _unreal_: I dont know what you have for steppers
05:09 PM unterhaus: my guess is that 5 flashes in the manual is a misprint and they meant 4
05:10 PM _unreal_: so what is 5 flashes
05:10 PM unterhaus: unless it was written by John Cleese
05:12 PM Thorhian: If 5 meant 4, then that would be the stepper driver complaining that it couldn't keep up driving the motor (I have encoders on my motors).
05:12 PM _unreal_: well I made an other happy customer. you know its amazing my post has almost 5k views
05:12 PM _unreal_: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/controller-cards/366112-software-2.html
05:13 PM _unreal_: ok
05:13 PM _unreal_: that would make sense
05:13 PM _unreal_: what speed did they get driven at
05:13 PM _unreal_: or was it right off the bat?
05:15 PM perry_j1987: im back
05:16 PM _unreal_: I never left othe then to get an other beer
05:16 PM _unreal_: been kind of pissed off today
05:16 PM _unreal_: I was suposed to get my daughter and POS xwife yet again decided she has the power...
05:16 PM perry_j1987: im kinda pissed you didnt get me a beer
05:16 PM perry_j1987: ah that sucks
05:16 PM _unreal_: wait till I take her to court IN THE WORKS
05:16 PM Thorhian: Not fast, only around 600mm/min going up. The machine doesn't have a counterweight and I think the rails might not be aligned very well towards the top of the Z axis. This may be a sign that I need to take the Z axis off and do some more hand grinding...
05:16 PM _unreal_: I'm as ass hole DEAL WITH IT, ice cold corona with lime to KEY lime
05:17 PM _unreal_: Thorhian, hehe depends more on the encoder values
05:17 PM _unreal_: if you have 8k lines per rotation
05:17 PM _unreal_: 600mm/min on a setup that is geared down is a SHIT load of lines to read
05:18 PM _unreal_: the hz RATE COULD easlly exceed the read rate
05:18 PM Thorhian: I have driven it plenty of times and faster unreal, I highly doubt that was a problem.
05:18 PM Thorhian: BTW, it's direct drive.
05:18 PM _unreal_: then maybe you have a read error on the encodeer
05:18 PM _unreal_: flake of dust, wire issue.
05:19 PM Thorhian: Plus I did add more weight since the motor mount was made of plastic before. Now it is steel and some aluminum.
05:19 PM _unreal_: failing lamp or reciver inside the quadrature encoder
05:19 PM _unreal_: OHHH
05:19 PM _unreal_: more weight
05:19 PM _unreal_: oh so then your tuning is off
05:19 PM Thorhian: Plus bad rail allignment. I can tell when I ran it before.
05:19 PM _unreal_: current/read rate
05:20 PM _unreal_: WISH you had mentioned adding weight and alignment before
05:20 PM _unreal_: thats a PID tuning issue
05:20 PM _unreal_: hands down
05:20 PM _unreal_: always account for what is changing
05:21 PM Thorhian: I mean, tuning will only solve so much. It would be better to fix the allignment and eventually use some sort of counterweight, whether a literal one or something like gas springs.
05:21 PM _unreal_: if error 5 is really error 4
05:21 PM Thorhian: Yep
05:21 PM _unreal_: and you added more weight, and expect the machine to work the same
05:21 PM _unreal_: its NOT going to period
05:22 PM _unreal_: only takes 2 ticks typically to give a FAULT
05:22 PM _unreal_: 1 tick is a wornning 2 ticks is a fault
05:22 PM _unreal_: tick being an encoder line
05:22 PM _unreal_: so forget anything everything about wires etc......
05:22 PM Thorhian: I didn't expect the machine to work the same. This was the first time I tried running it after the changes lol
05:22 PM _unreal_: you need to re-tune your controller
05:23 PM _unreal_: how much wegiht did you add from what was Z load before?
05:23 PM _unreal_: do a ratio
05:23 PM Thorhian: Also, I haven't tuned it externally before. They have worked like champs until now.
05:24 PM Thorhian: Based on the fact that the rest of the Spindle assembly is steel, I'd say around 1.2/1.
05:24 PM _unreal_: solve your ratio, for how it WAS working to what has changed.
05:24 PM _unreal_: then reduce your rates by that much
05:24 PM _unreal_: and your issue should disolve
05:25 PM _unreal_: ok... so reduce by :S 1/3
05:25 PM _unreal_: 1/3rd feed rate reduction and with luck it wont blink you to death
05:25 PM Thorhian: The fastest I tried going before was 1200mm/min. The motor had no trouble. Now I can't even get it to move now. Maybe I have to reset it somehow...
05:26 PM _unreal_: over all speed typically is less the issue, its ramping
05:26 PM Thorhian: Probably could go faster before, just never tried.
05:26 PM _unreal_: My new machine I'm building can do 4k mm/min
05:26 PM _unreal_: but I have it set to 800mm/min
05:27 PM Thorhian: I'm a milling newbie and machine builder newbie. I have tended to being safer rather than sorry.
05:27 PM _unreal_: I tested it working endlessly at that apeed but the controller just FAILED out of the blue. current sense resistor over heating.
05:27 PM _unreal_: never tripped any safetys
05:29 PM Thorhian: Well, I'm off to try and examine the motor.
05:29 PM perry_j1987: http://www.primelec.com/copley-controls-800-1514a-dual-channel-servo-amplifier-0190-31257#.X_D-vy9h3RY im seeing ones that say they are dual axis drivers?
05:39 PM _unreal_: examin the motor?
05:39 PM _unreal_: I just told him he made changes ACCOUNT for what has been changed and adjust FOR what has been changed.
05:40 PM _unreal_: with luck he checks out his PID tuning
05:40 PM _unreal_: and only
05:40 PM _unreal_: since the only change is weight
05:41 PM unterhaus: you don't want a dual axis drive for a single axis
05:48 PM Thorhian: Just checked the resistance on the two phases. 0.5 ohms, really close to the spec (0.45). I was measuring from the screw terminals, so I think the motor is okay.
05:48 PM Thorhian: Also, what are you talking about unterhaus?
05:50 PM unterhaus: you mean the dual? That was for perry
05:50 PM Thorhian: oh lol
05:50 PM _unreal_: ya I'm helping fix perry right now too ;)
05:50 PM _unreal_: lol
05:50 PM unterhaus: "fix"
05:51 PM _unreal_: hehehehe
05:53 PM unterhaus: I have some cables in my junkpile that use the same connector as my motor encoders. Guessing the wiring doesn't line up though
05:54 PM Thorhian: Hopefully my driver isn't busted. I thought a 3Nm stepper motor would be fine but maybe I need a better driver and 48V to achieve the motor's true potential instead of 36V if tuning and/or other troubleshooting doesn't work out.
05:55 PM perry_j1987: that dual axis driver, is it sending the same output for each motor
05:55 PM perry_j1987: or independent?
06:29 PM perry_j1987: im contemplating just throwing these 425oz steppers on there and get the thing moving
06:31 PM perry_j1987: at same time i dont want to dissassemble my other lathe in order to get this one going heh
06:36 PM Tom_L: should be plenty for a lathe
06:40 PM perry_j1987: just keep reading conflicting information on these servos lol
06:40 PM perry_j1987: ran into some forum post that said these encoders wouldnt work with g320x drives
06:46 PM unterhaus: how many lines do those encoders have?
06:50 PM perry_j1987: 1000ppr im reading
06:51 PM Tom_L: that seems doable
06:52 PM perry_j1987: found someone else trying to do this lathe up
06:52 PM perry_j1987: https://openbuilds.com/threads/techno-isle-lathe-retro-rebuild-project.10683/
06:52 PM perry_j1987: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/gecko-drives/288356-g320x-connection-help-needed.html
06:52 PM perry_j1987: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/teachers-hangout/45503-cnc-tormach-software-3.html
06:52 PM Tom_L: https://www.geckodrive.com/support/g320x-rev-10.html
06:52 PM perry_j1987: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/gecko-drives/288356-g320x-connection-help-needed.html#post1793842
06:52 PM perry_j1987: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/usa-club-forums/348766-cnc-forum.html
06:54 PM Tom_L: the doc says minimum 25 count
06:54 PM Tom_L: doesn't give a max
06:55 PM Tom_L: 1000 isn't that much for encoders per se
06:55 PM Tom_L: i'm using a 500cpr on my spindle
06:55 PM perry_j1987: i'll be back in a bit i have to drive my son somewhere real quick
06:55 PM _unreal_: 1000ppr is not a lot of lines
06:56 PM * Tom_L hears a faint echo in here
06:56 PM _unreal_: 1000ppr 4000encoder pulses
06:57 PM _unreal_: not bad... the encoders on the motors I was planning on using are 400 pulse
06:57 PM _unreal_: still better then microstepping my steppers
06:57 PM _unreal_: 8x micro stepping 1.8 degree
07:21 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by barjavel.freenode.net
07:41 PM perry_j1987: ok back
07:42 PM gregcnc: Have you looked at the encoders yet?
07:46 PM perry_j1987: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=299470&d=1448923108
07:46 PM perry_j1987: someone posted pic of them
07:47 PM XXCoder: login required
07:47 PM gregcnc: if you remove it from the motor, the label in on the back
07:47 PM perry_j1987: everyone here has cnczone logins surely :P
07:47 PM skunkworks: heh
07:48 PM gregcnc: looks like a dynapar I have
07:48 PM perry_j1987: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/gecko-drives/288356-g320x-connection-help-needed.html
07:48 PM perry_j1987: this guy says dynapar
07:48 PM gregcnc: as long as you don't use teh industry arena mirror
07:50 PM gregcnc: I'd pull it and get the model number. but i'm not scared to do so
08:07 PM _unreal_: not important
08:08 PM _unreal_: only its method of operation
08:08 PM _unreal_: step/dir input at 5v TTL THEN ITS GOING TO WORK.. just fine with any mesa, par port pick poison
08:08 PM gregcnc: are those available? someone mentioned here a while back
08:08 PM perry_j1987: https://www.crowdsupply.com/citrus-cnc/tarocco
08:09 PM _unreal_: the link seems to work for ordering
08:10 PM perry_j1987: they are 36v
08:10 PM XXCoder: thats cool
08:11 PM perry_j1987: i think mine are running at 48v stock
08:11 PM _unreal_: hum
08:11 PM _unreal_: my new machine is running 38v
08:12 PM XXCoder: https://www.crowdsupply.com/img/b69e/servo-pledge-1.jpg
08:12 PM XXCoder: big picture of one of stuff sold
08:12 PM perry_j1987: the fet he's using has 45v cap he said
08:16 PM _unreal_: XXCoder, oooooo....aaaaaaaa............
08:16 PM gregcnc: citruscnc.com is dead
08:17 PM _unreal_: the cad drawings and code is available on hackaday
08:17 PM _unreal_: I was tempted to build one some time ago. forget why I didnt
08:27 PM _unreal_: I think I had decided to not build because I didnt want to deal with dbl sided pcb
08:27 PM _unreal_: hehe
08:28 PM perry_j1987: torque vs velocity what is perfered
08:30 PM _unreal_: oh thats amazing https://github.com/ottoragam/Tarocco
08:30 PM unterhaus: velocity
08:30 PM _unreal_: they even have a grbl version of the code
08:30 PM _unreal_: so they have a step/dir and grbl version LOL
08:30 PM enleth: perry_j1987: velocity is simpler to understand and set up, torque is more powerful but harder to get right
08:30 PM enleth: perry_j1987: so go for velocity
08:31 PM enleth: torque mode makes sense for serious big iron
08:31 PM gregcnc: with encoders?
08:32 PM unterhaus: not hard to get velocity from encoders
08:32 PM unterhaus: amc will use an encoder instead of a tach
08:32 PM unterhaus: on their tach drives
08:32 PM gregcnc: yes
08:33 PM gregcnc: people here talked me out of it and I ended up torque mode
08:34 PM unterhaus: what do you think the crossover point is for torque vs. velocity?
08:34 PM unterhaus: 1hp?
08:37 PM unterhaus: this cable looks like it was built for my motors, which is nice. Not sure I believe it though
08:38 PM enleth: unrelated note: using bone conduction to troubleshoot bearing problems in a spindle is a very useful trick
08:38 PM perry_j1987: so far only listings im seeing on ebay are g320x or leadshine DCS810 that i can get two of for this lathe
08:39 PM enleth: you'll look silly touching your forehead to your mill, buy you'll hear things that get drowned out in all the other noise
08:39 PM gregcnc: there really isn't much for step/dir dc servo
08:40 PM _unreal_: I think I may build one of those torroco motor controller boards for the hell of it
08:41 PM gregcnc: long screwdriver with handle to the ear?
08:42 PM enleth: gregcnc: still won't pass low frequencies as good as pressing your skull against the headstock casting
08:42 PM _unreal_: gregcnc, done that a great many times
08:43 PM enleth: that really brings out all the murmuring and rumbling coming out of the bearings
08:43 PM _unreal_: especially when I had my old 93 for range pickup
08:43 PM unterhaus: spoke too soon, all the shields are going to a pin I need
08:44 PM unterhaus: hoping that happens on the pigtail end
08:48 PM _unreal_: Now..... I remember why I didnt build them.
08:49 PM _unreal_: I'd have to do some @#$@#$3214 editing to the PCB
08:49 PM _unreal_: it cant be directly printed. reason is that there are +v and ground planes that are only outlined not drawn
08:49 PM _unreal_: fack.........
08:55 PM captain_morgan9 is now known as captain_morgan
08:55 PM Rab_ is now known as Rab
09:03 PM Tom_L: enleth, a screwdriver to the ear works just as well
09:03 PM perry_j1987: maybe i should just get https://amzn.to/350oly0 or somethin
09:03 PM Tom_L: and can be manipulated to pinpoint the noise
09:04 PM Tom_L: and i see now gregcnc beat me to that suggestion
09:05 PM enleth: Tom_L: actually, next time I'm doing this, I'll see if there's a difference between placing it against the ear, and against the temple above the ear
09:05 PM Tom_L: mechanics trick actually
09:06 PM Tom_L: for noisy valves etc
09:06 PM enleth: I think the temple is a better spot, less soft tissue between the screwdriver handle and the bone
09:06 PM enleth: or just optimized for a slightly different frequency range, if not necessarily better
09:07 PM Tom_L: either way you definitely hear things you normally wouldn't
09:11 PM _unreal_: perry_j1987, up to you
09:13 PM enleth: there was this one time when I couldn't figure out which bearing is dying and didn't want to tear them all out, but I knew they're all different sizes, so I looked up ball diameters, calculated ball circumference, FFTd a recording of the machine running and looked for spikes matching the rotation period of a single ball in each bearing at the given RPMs
09:13 PM _unreal_: perry_j1987, I'm strongly thinking about building one of those torroco motor controllers for the hell of it. I just finished adjusting the PCB to USE THE GROUND/POWER planes
09:13 PM enleth: it worked, there was an easily detected spike from a slightly galled ball in one of the bearings
09:14 PM perry_j1987: going to upgrade the fet used to work at higher voltages?
09:14 PM Tom_L: enleth, they use flir for that nowdays.... gees
09:14 PM _unreal_: perry_j1987, ? no on
09:14 PM _unreal_: no
09:14 PM _unreal_: I'm just adjusting the pcb art work to have vcc/grd planes
09:15 PM _unreal_: the designer never finished the artwork
09:15 PM _unreal_: left it as dotted lines
09:15 PM enleth: Tom_L: even if I had one, I'm not sure if I'd let that machine run at high speed long enough for any detectable amout of heat to pass through the casting
09:15 PM enleth: Tom_L: audio analysis isn't as elegantly simple, but it might find problems even at low speed
09:16 PM Tom_L: yeah
09:18 PM enleth: there are actually some pretty serious academic papers about audio analysis of bearing noises to detect all kinds of faults early, what I did is the simples possible way to do it
09:19 PM Tom_L: it just reminded me of a little known class at the vo-tech on predicting failure in systems
09:21 PM enleth: that sounds surprisingly advanced and sophisticated for this level
09:22 PM Tom_L: several years back during an open house i noticed it
09:23 PM Tom_L: didn't seem all that popular among students
09:24 PM enleth: I wonder if they could get more students by including watching and discussion of recent YouTube clips of stuff collapsing, crashing, blowing up, etc.
09:25 PM enleth: that would actually be perfectly relevant
09:26 PM Tom_L: after talking to the guy a bit he'd done it for a living for some time and grain elevators etc seemed to be a good candidate
09:30 PM unterhaus_: I couldn't get the backshell off the connector on my cable. Now I'm thinking I might have been tightening it
09:32 PM perry_j1987: ok i guess i'll order up a couple g320x servo drives
09:32 PM perry_j1987: and a BOB and i should be able to get some movement out of this thing
09:35 PM enleth: Tom_L: come to think of it, understanding a given system is not about knowing how it works - that's what the drawings and documentation are for - but rather, knowing how/when/why it *doesn't* work
09:35 PM enleth: which is something the paperwork won't tell you about
09:40 PM _unreal_: perry_j1987, prob the best choice
09:40 PM _unreal_: I think that was the FIRST thing I had mentioned as well LOL
09:40 PM _unreal_: damn I'm good
09:40 PM Tom_L: pat yourself on the back and go have a beer
09:41 PM perry_j1987: i take a look and then i look at EVERYTHING else around and see if the first thing is the best heh
09:41 PM _unreal_: I'm on to water and juice rightnow
09:41 PM _unreal_: apple juce that is
09:43 PM unterhaus_: I used to work in aircraft field support. Once an engine broke and the mechanic I worked with said "they don't work that way" But they do, if they are broken
09:44 PM enleth: unterhaus_: humans think in terms of purpose and intentions, reality works in terms of cause and effect
09:44 PM unterhaus_: If you are highly trained in how a complex system works, but not the underlying physics, broken systems can be confusing
09:45 PM enleth: adjusting your brain to ignore the former and process the latter is a crucial part of learning engineering
09:45 PM unterhaus_: unless you have seen that particular failure before
09:46 PM unterhaus_: or in the immortal words of sgt. Green when asked about a failure, "f it, I don't care, I'll be safe here on the ground and you'll be up there flying"
09:48 PM enleth: fortunately, modern aviation technology is so robust and redundant that people often have to wonder how exactly something managed to hold together and keep working *despite* a failure or damage
09:48 PM unterhaus_: I used to work on a single engine fighter
09:49 PM unterhaus_: you can see it's picture if you google "not robust"
09:49 PM unterhaus_: its picture
09:50 PM unterhaus_: it is funny how seldom they break in practice though
09:50 PM unterhaus_: usually I worked in an office and out of 5000 planes, a few of them broke every day
09:50 PM unterhaus_: but at a wing, out of 26 planes none of them would ever break
09:51 PM enleth: wonder if that might have something to do with pilot training, at least for certain types of failures
09:51 PM unterhaus_: law of large numbers
09:51 PM unterhaus_: but it's definitely a different perspective when you see how unlikely it is for a plane to break
09:52 PM unterhaus_: any single plane
09:54 PM unterhaus_: I have wasted time in meetings because a 2nd lieutenant ran out of airspeed in a high g turn
09:54 PM unterhaus_: other than that, not too much stupidity.
09:54 PM enleth: BTW, military stuff is a bit of a special case, in that it's usually designed to be reliable and dependable, if - and that is a huge if - it is being maintained according to a strict schedule and procedure
09:54 PM enleth: case in point: helicopters
09:54 PM enleth: two hours of engine overhaul per each hour of flight
09:55 PM unterhaus_: airlines really don't want to do maintenance, and neither does the military
09:55 PM unterhaus_: if we wanted to punish someone into doing the right thing we would make them do frequent inspections
09:55 PM enleth: but the military often requires pushing the technology to its absolute limits
09:55 PM enleth: and this comes at a cost
09:56 PM unterhaus_: let's not talk about cost :)
09:56 PM unterhaus_: even the low tech stuff costs a lot
09:57 PM enleth: I wasn't even going into financial cost
09:57 PM Tom_L: or cost not to
09:58 PM unterhaus_: requirements are a whole different ballgame
09:58 PM enleth: just the fact that, yes, you can build a ground attack helicoper that is a literal flying bunker, will carry a dozen man team and a ton of ordnance, and will outrun almost anything on the battlefield - but be prepared to let the mechanics tear down the engine and rebuild it after each mission
09:58 PM enleth: or it'll just fail and drop out of the sky
09:59 PM unterhaus_: is that true of any fielded system?
09:59 PM enleth: because it's impossible to build it to those standards of performance without sacrificing longevity of critical parts
09:59 PM unterhaus_: engines are pretty amazingly robust
10:00 PM unterhaus_: for the U.S. planes, if something needs serious work the engine gets swapped
10:00 PM enleth: AFAIK there's a huge difference in this regard between fixed wing aircraft and helicopters
10:01 PM unterhaus_: I have trouble believing that helicopter engines are more advanced than the crazy ones they have on fighters
10:01 PM Tom_L: unterhaus_, that just makes sense
10:02 PM unterhaus_: the army's goal was always to have mechanics that could follow a comic book
10:02 PM Tom_L: swap the assembly out and bench repair it right
10:02 PM enleth: they must be smaller and lighter, while delivering power through an inefficient mechanical system
10:03 PM enleth: that means they run at higher rpms and run hotter
10:03 PM unterhaus_: definitely higher rpms, but not sure about hotter
10:03 PM Tom_L: this all over a chip in a ball bearing :)
10:04 PM unterhaus_: we had a project where we were trying to get a computer to detect a failed bearing and we couldn't get a bearing to fail
10:04 PM enleth: unterhaus_: combustor chambers are way smaller, the flame is not necessarily hotter per se, but the stuff around it gets more waste heat sunk into it
10:04 PM unterhaus_: still a motor hooked up in the lab that has holes drilled in the outer race
10:04 PM unterhaus_: don't worry, the big ones get really hot too
10:05 PM unterhaus_: I was watching one of ours in a test cell go through afterburner, and the amount of glowing red metal was amazing
10:06 PM unterhaus_: I worked on missile engines, so I'm familiar with small turbojets
10:07 PM unterhaus_: I think the core on the one I worked on went 60krpm, but I'm sure they are going faster now
10:08 PM unterhaus_: bearings got better
10:09 PM enleth: unterhaus_: afterburner doesn't really affect the turbine, does it? it's "only" the jet pipe and thrust vectoring (if present) that need to survive being red hot
10:10 PM unterhaus_: well, you can't see the combuster on most engines, it's inside the fan duct
10:10 PM unterhaus_: although helicopters sometimes use weird inside-out designs
10:11 PM enleth: if my understanding is correct, hotter combustors are a way worse engineering problem than afterburners, because you need to make half the engine survive the additional heat
10:11 PM unterhaus_: turbines were always the part that the engineers I delt with seemed most comfortable with
10:12 PM unterhaus_: compressors are where the money is made
10:12 PM enleth: makes sense when efficiency is money
10:12 PM unterhaus_: those are getting a lot hotter nowadays
10:13 PM unterhaus_: I can't tell you how many boring meetings I have been in talking about the "j curve"
10:14 PM unterhaus_: okay, maybe that's not what it's called but there is a curve where a single point determines if you are going to meet efficiency goals
10:14 PM unterhaus_: the whole meeting that plot would be up on the screen and the guy talking would be pointing at that single point
10:15 PM enleth: doesn't matter how cool your job is, there's always the meetings
10:15 PM unterhaus_: I guess I should have gotten one of the experienced engineers to explain that to me, but I was never involved in that side
10:15 PM unterhaus_: frustrating if you don't understand what's going on
10:15 PM XXCoder: unterhaus_: you havent reached meeting uptopia till you have meetings about meetings
10:16 PM unterhaus_: I probably have been in such a meeting
10:16 PM enleth: XXCoder: then a meeting to figure out how to deal with the problem of too many meetings
10:16 PM XXCoder: indeed
10:16 PM unterhaus_: If you haven't read Augustines laws, you should
10:17 PM unterhaus_: I was once in a special meeting that displaced a weekly meeting. Guy comes in and finds out the weekly meeting was canceled and was disappointed
10:18 PM unterhaus_: What kind of hell was his job that a meeting was better?
10:18 PM unterhaus_: maybe they had good donuts
10:19 PM unterhaus_: don't really miss that stuff at all
10:35 PM unterhaus_: sort of miss the military aircraft practice of having spare conductors about now
10:35 PM unterhaus_: going to repurpose one of the ground wires
10:48 PM unterhaus: well, they filled the backshell with sealant to make modifications more pleasant
10:49 PM unterhaus: Looks doable but annoying
10:54 PM _unreal_: OMG... I've been calling this for months considering my background as a nurse, med tech, and bio med working at the jackson lab. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHqSVmQQdh0
10:54 PM _unreal_: I FREAKING CALLED IT
10:56 PM _unreal_: well other then milling the base. my Z lead screw body is done. and I'm missing the damn #6 3" screws I need to hold the drive nuts together.
11:04 PM flyback is now known as LED_MAN
11:04 PM LED_MAN is now known as flyback
11:24 PM unterhaus: internet doesn't know any clever ways to remove the silicone potting compound
11:53 PM _unreal_: unterhaus, ?
11:53 PM _unreal_: silicone potting compound?
11:53 PM _unreal_: not sure what that is?