#linuxcnc Logs

Dec 07 2020

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:04 AM Deejay: moin
01:34 AM Loetmichel: mornin'
01:34 AM Loetmichel: *gaahhh* Monday morning... just drove onto the company parking after waiting for a delivery truck to clear the driveway... AND ANOTHER time that the main fuse box at the entrance of the driveway has been touched... lid is laying on the ground AGAIN... (probably the fifth time in as many years now... :( )
01:46 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17993&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
05:23 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:47 AM Tom_L: morning
06:52 AM alex_joni: morning
07:00 AM jymmmm: morning
07:49 AM howto: hello people long time no write :)
07:50 AM howto: as usual i have questions
07:58 AM howto: why doesnt linuxcnc bringing the cpu frequency up to its max ?
07:58 AM howto: for realtime operation?
08:04 AM rs[m]: howto: typical realtime loop is 1kHz, 1ms is a very long time for modern cpus, running at 1.5GHz or 3 GHz doesn't make much of a difference. the realtime stuff in linuxcnc typically isn't limited by cpu speed.
08:04 AM rs[m]: howto: changing speed also comes with latencies that may be unpredictable, depending on cpu architecture and powerstates involved.
08:06 AM howto: wait...tkgate does realtime operation and when it does realtime simulation it brings the cpu up to max specific frequency and i get realtime simulation for very large circuits and i can give hardware stimuli too in realtime
08:07 AM rs[m]: no idea what tkgate doesn, but linuxcncn doesn't need to calculate that much in the realtime loop
08:08 AM alex_joni: tkgate sounds like tcl/tk software, which surely isn't realtime
08:08 AM howto: the idea is ahen the cpu is at the max frequency in 99% cases you get lower latencies. Programming software does that with chip hardware programmers when they need to be programmed over the parallel port
08:09 AM howto: +alex_joni you didnt read what i said...you just saw the name and gave a comment :)))
08:09 AM rs[m]: howto: you are free to use whatever cpu frequency governer you want
08:09 AM howto: i specified hardware stimuli in realtime over the parallel port
08:10 AM howto: rs[m] how do you do that in wheezy especially when since support drop it is security tight?
08:11 AM howto: you cant even install other programs in it anymore unles you are a hacking wiz...zero cool and other hollywoodian of that sort
08:12 AM rs[m]: howto: doesn't really depend on what linux distribution you use. look at /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu*/cpufreq and related RTFM
08:12 AM rs[m]: https://stevescargall.com/2020/02/12/how-to-set-linux-cpu-scaling-governor-to-max-performance/
08:12 AM rs[m]: (didn't read it, just one of the first hist in ddg)
08:13 AM rs[m]: but i doubt it reduce your max or even average jitter. in bad cases it could even get worse (increased energy consumption leading to thermal throttling)
08:14 AM enleth: howto: sadly, a 1995 133MHz Pentium can be a better RT platform than a modern multi-GHz multi-core shebang, because the Pentium is an extremely dumb design that runs at 133Mhz and won't slow down, can't slow down and even has to NOP in a loop to "not do anything", so it's absolutely predictable
08:14 AM enleth: howto: a modern CPU is many layers of abstraction below the "CPU" your OS can access and manipulate
08:16 AM enleth: RT on modern CPUs can't rely on precise control over the core because there isn't any, it can only rely on being so blazing fast compared to the realtime loop period that even if you get unpredictable latency due to power management and all the other stuff happening under the hood, you'll still finish in time for the next loop iteration
08:16 AM enleth: that's a shitty consolation, though
08:19 AM howto: yes enleth i know that but linux programs like tkgate can do realtime by just bringing the cpu up to its max frequency, And i have to work with what i have. i ran a program on the machine and i havent saw any loss of steps even if the rtapi gave that latency error. But for my sanity check i would have wished a resolution for that. because other
08:19 AM howto: programs solved that.
08:20 AM howto: by getting the frequency up to max for the cpu.
08:21 AM howto: i know that dell have a problem in particular with productiveness but i allready bought the thing.
08:21 AM howto: and even so tkgate kicks its but and the computer complies
08:22 AM howto: the question would be how we cand do the same for linuxcnc so everybody can profit of its gratuity?
08:23 AM howto: how can we...sorry
08:24 AM howto: so on a wheezy install what software would we need to do that? with GUI would be preferable.
08:24 AM rs[m]: howto: just crank the frequency up to max and try again
08:25 AM rs[m]: howto: no software needed at all, just configure the cpu frequency governor
08:26 AM howto: rs[m] if i take the mic and tell it to do that...it wont do it. So that is why i would need a GUI to simplify the process :)
08:27 AM howto: i am not a cli wiz
08:27 AM rs[m]: howto: some reading and an attention span of about 5 minutes will be required, see link i posted earlier
08:27 AM howto: allready reading that
08:29 AM enleth: howto: be aware that forcing maximum frequency might trigger a thermal override on some platforms that were designed for power saving and just can't sink the heat off the CPU when it's maxxed out
08:30 AM enleth: whatever you set in the operating system, it will be ignored if ACPI rules say the CPU is too hot and the remedy for it is downclocking
08:30 AM rs[m]: if with tkgate you are referring to this https://sourceforge.net/projects/tkgate/ or this https://github.com/bnoordhuis/tkgate i think you are mistaken regarding any realtime capability.
08:31 AM enleth: and if you override that - you can if you really need to - it'll just overheat and shut down
08:31 AM howto: enleth when i ran tkgate seemed to work fine wouldn't that be enough?
08:31 AM enleth: possibly
08:31 AM howto: rs[m] have you worked with the program?
08:32 AM Eric__: if tkgate isn't measuring latencies, it's not doing realtime
08:32 AM Eric__: where is the deadline in a simulation?
08:33 AM howto: in the external hardware stimuli
08:33 AM rs[m]: howto: the program seems to be in maintenance mode since 2009 or so, it doesn' say anything about realtime or any realtime kernel modules, rt preempt wasn't an option back then IIRC
08:33 AM howto: ok i will try to see how the governor thing works.
08:34 AM rs[m]: howto: with "realtime" you mean someting else. the type of "hard" realtime linuxcnc needs is a guaranteed maximum latency window until a periodic event is served
08:35 AM Eric__: it's not realtime, they probably figured that out eventually and went to comedi
08:36 AM enleth: howto: yep, there are several definitions of realtime and this program might be doing soft realtime or sometimes-so-called "firm realtime" - it's doing the best it can to deliver actual realtime but no one is going to die in a fiery wreck if it fails to do so, so it doesn't try *that* hard
08:36 AM Eric__: if there is nothing stopping it from busting its realtime deadlines, it isn't doing realtime
08:37 AM rs[m]: the simulation probably is a big loop that calculates step after step, as fast as possible
08:37 AM Eric__: In most cases, it seems like it would show up as distortion
08:37 AM enleth: howto: linuxcnc is controlling moving stuff, some of which is heavy, stores massive amounts of kinetic energy and is only protected from catastrophic crashes by software control, so it needs to absolutely constantly deliver results under a deadline, or immediately e-stop if it can't
08:38 AM Eric__: Yes, it would be malpractice for lcnc to use soft realtime based on hoping max cpu freq was enough
08:38 AM Loetmichel: hehe, been there, seen that
08:39 AM Eric__: but howto is welcome to increase cpu freq to the max and running the latency test
08:39 AM Eric__: I don't see any impediments to doing that, wheezy is not "locked down"
08:39 AM * alex_joni imagines it will be worse
08:39 AM Loetmichel: ordered a 3kw siemens servodrive to move half a ton of rotating table 10mm more than the hard stops screwed to the linear rails...
08:40 AM Loetmichel: ... resulted in impressive impacts and brickm disntegration in the brick wall 40ft across the shop
08:40 AM Eric__: I have seen the results of crashing a big machine. Someone was severely injured
08:40 AM Loetmichel: i can imagine that
08:41 AM Loetmichel: mine was while setting up said machine built of ebay second hand parts...
08:41 AM Eric__: they wanted me to analyze and testify that it was fatigue and not their fault
08:41 AM Loetmichel: but indeed if someone would have stood in the path of the endstops...
08:41 AM rs[m]: i'm not sure i would run a machine under linuxcnc control that would hurt people if software goes berzerk
08:42 AM Eric__: this machine was big enough that the operator station moved with the cutter
08:42 AM howto: Yeah but big machines dont use linuxcnc they use proprietary things that you need big money licensing for
08:42 AM Loetmichel: it was like a gunshot when the 4 m8 8.8 bolts sheared off and the two endstops went flying
08:42 AM Eric__: wow
08:43 AM alex_joni: http://uploads.robcon.ro/aj/IMG_4613s.jpg
08:43 AM rs[m]: howto: i'm running a "big" machine under linuxcnc control, it just happens to be in a cage
08:43 AM enleth: Loetmichel: it doesn't even take that much, I've seen the table on a bridgeport-grade mill waltz off the saddle, through the wall and into the adjacent room - high speed, no axis brake, no mechanical limit to the left side. the screw just left the nut and the whole thing kept going
08:43 AM alex_joni: last ones I installed
08:43 AM Eric__: some of the proprietary software relies on you not knowing what's in it for a feeling of safety
08:43 AM alex_joni: might count as big?
08:44 AM rs[m]: big eough
08:44 AM Loetmichel: enleth: that thing could move the half metric ton sled/table about 1m in less than a second
08:44 AM Loetmichel: dead stop to dead stop
08:44 AM Loetmichel: if you mess with the end settings...
08:44 AM Eric__: $25000 software we used was a visual basic program talking to a delta tau board
08:44 AM enleth: Loetmichel: with only 3kW on the servo? impressive
08:44 AM Loetmichel: 3kw NOMINAL
08:44 AM Loetmichel: 90A peak three phase 400V
08:45 AM alex_joni: the table on that one could move up to 15t parts
08:45 AM Loetmichel: the servo drives could even send power back into the grid while braking instead of using a load resistor
08:45 AM rs[m]: alex_joni: how many axis are there? looks like the table can rotate in 2 directions ans also the head
08:45 AM beachbumpete1: Morning everybody ;)
08:46 AM Loetmichel: was funny to see the strip lights on the ceiling dim when it accelerated and flash bright when it decellerated
08:46 AM enleth: fun fact, mentioned here already in the past: I have a 1995 KUKA KR200 robot, 3m arm reach, 200kg dynamic capacity, 500kg static, can do full turns in split second on all axes - it's driven by an unholy union of Windows 95 and VxWorks sharing a single Pentium MMX CPU
08:46 AM alex_joni: rs[m]: 14 in total
08:46 AM Loetmichel: s/nominal/average(continous)
08:46 AM enleth: I'm really not sure if it's any safer than LinuxCNC
08:47 AM rs[m]: enleth: there is a reason those things live in a cage!
08:47 AM rs[m]: alex_joni: must be fun programming that thing
08:47 AM Loetmichel: enleth: i worked on a 250kg welding version of that think
08:47 AM Loetmichel: thing
08:47 AM Loetmichel: but IIRC it had WinNT as a visualizer OS
08:47 AM beachbumpete1: Anyone here bought one of those chinese Orthur CNC diode laser engraver machines?
08:47 AM rs[m]: alex_joni: and there is another one next to it on the left?
08:47 AM alex_joni: rs[m]: 7 on the robot, then vertical 3m, cross 2m, turning of the blue tower, linear floor track 7m, then 3 axes on the table
08:48 AM enleth: Loetmichel: might have been KRC2, it had XP I think
08:48 AM alex_joni: however 2 of the table axes are synced together, so you only see 2 axes
08:48 AM alex_joni: rs[m]: yeah, another identical to the left
08:49 AM rs[m]: my "big one" is just a machining center for wood weighing "only" 3t, travel is about 5m in X and 1,3m in Y, but it doesn 80m/min if allowed, scary enough for me
08:50 AM alex_joni: rs[m]: sure sound scary
08:50 AM howto: aaah maan...the frequency decreased more when moved the governor in the performance mode...come oooon :)))
08:50 AM enleth: howto: welcome to the wornderful world of x86 power management
08:50 AM * alex_joni refrains from an I told you so...
08:51 AM howto: but why stress test keeps the god damn thing up to 3 ghz?
08:51 AM enleth: howto: where layers upon layers are built onto 1980s technology
08:51 AM rs[m]: howto: set scalingminfreq to your maximum, then it will not scale down. but it't won't change anything.
08:51 AM howto: tkgate does the same
08:51 AM alex_joni: howto: been a while since I built a RTAI kernel.. but when I did, it worked best when one would take out as much uncertainty as possible
08:51 AM rs[m]: howto: even the "performance" governor senses when there is nothing to do and slows down cpu to keep it cool
08:51 AM Eric__: MDI some codes cannot be stopped once started https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/machining-crashes-video-329245/#post2892009
08:52 AM alex_joni: there are a lot of factors in a CPU which will negatively affect RT performance: branch prediction, pipeline depth, power management, number of CPUs.. how these communicate, etc
08:52 AM Eric__: would be really interesting to feed a sine wave generator from that tcl circuit simulator into my distortion analyzer
08:52 AM alex_joni: what you might want to try is use isolcpus, and fix the RT taks to only one core/cpu
08:54 AM alex_joni: howto: https://github.com/ShabbyX/RTAI/blob/master/README.ISOLCPUS
08:54 AM enleth: to be honest, I fully expect the next "gold standard" platform for flawless RT on LinuxCNC to be ARM-based
08:55 AM enleth: it might already be on the market, too - we just haven't found out abut it
08:55 AM alex_joni: depends on the application.. what kind of machine, stepper/servo, etc
08:56 AM enleth: I'm implicitly assuming servos with a Mesa FPGA card
08:56 AM alex_joni: for simple stepper I think a beaglebone with hardware stepgeneration is quite good bang for the buck
08:56 AM alex_joni: for a mesa fpga you don't need that much RT
08:56 AM enleth: there are ARM platforms with PCIe already available
08:56 AM enleth: come to think of it, I might be able to borrow one
08:57 AM alex_joni: there's a whole new line from Apple ;)
08:58 AM alex_joni: wouldn't use one though
08:58 AM enleth: we still don't know what shape the M1-based Mac Pro will get - they've done garbage cans and cheese graters already
08:58 AM enleth: that determines whether it'll take PCIe cards
08:59 AM enleth: seriously, though, there's a bunch of ARM SBPC boards with full size PCIe slots on the market
09:00 AM enleth: no need to screw around with adapters hooked up to miniPCIe or something
09:00 AM enleth: with ARM ISA being so much less screwed up than x86, they could be perfect for a Mesa card
09:03 AM Eric__: if you aren't doing software stepper, nothing more needs to happen with real time performance
09:04 AM Eric__: for mesa applications, I can go buy 20 used pc from the university surplus store that will work
09:04 AM Eric__: for $10-20 apiece
09:04 AM Eric__: need a $30 ssd to run
09:06 AM enleth: Eric__: not sure about this, I've seen some outright horrible jitter on older AMD APU-based small desktops intended for office workstations/terminals
09:07 AM Eric__: don't buy those
09:07 AM enleth: which is probably in the same ballpark as university surplus stuff
09:07 AM Eric__: when I buy a computer from there I run the latency test at least overnight
09:08 AM Eric__: I haven't seen a computer with an amd cpu at the surplus store for some time
09:08 AM enleth: what I mean is, you absolutely can get an x86 box that in theory should be fine, but is fucked up somewhere around PM/UEFI/EC/something in a way that disqualifies it even for the absolutely minimal RT requirements of a Mesa setup
09:09 AM Eric__: one of the $20 computers had uefi, so I turned itoff
09:09 AM Eric__: the uefi that is
09:09 AM enleth: Eric__: you probably will soon, those APU boxes made some serious market inroards
09:09 AM enleth: no surprise, they're great for what they were designed to do
09:09 AM gregcnc: I have HP boxes that run great until if it ever had to turn full speed fans, huge laltency, like 500 or 1000k
09:12 AM rs[m]: alex_joni: the impact of branch prediction and similar things on realtime latency for a 1ms thread should be negligible
09:12 AM enleth: and that is exactly why I'm hoping there's an ARM SBPC out there that could work, while being affordable even compared to old shit PCs
09:13 AM rs[m]: enleth: look at new raspberry pi compute module and io board
09:13 AM enleth: it would be so much better to be able to tell people "just go buy this $100 brand new computer that's guaranteed to work" instead of "go browse the surplus scrap pile, good luck, you'll need it"
09:13 AM rs[m]: it has pcie gen2x1 slot
09:15 AM enleth: rs[m]: I'd prefer it to be something else, I just can't bring myself to treat rPi seriously
09:17 AM enleth: it's just like ESP8266 - the SoC was obviously meant to be used for something else and there are horrors lurking in the design
09:18 AM rs[m]: enleth: the newer ones are not that bad, but you are right, it is broadcom hardware that also deserves linus' finger
09:18 AM rs[m]: like nvidia
09:18 AM enleth: that thing uses the *GPU* for platform bringup
09:19 AM rs[m]: you know that nvidia is pronounced like "nie wieder" in german, never again ;-)
09:19 AM rs[m]: raspberry pi SOC is a smart tv / low end tablet chip with bolted-on ARM sidecar
09:21 AM enleth: rs[m]: in Polish, it's very easy to twist the pronounciation into a joke on "can't see"
09:21 AM enleth: also, "novideo"
09:49 AM Eric__: the problem I see with arm is there is no entity with the will to maintain a platform for a long time
09:49 AM Eric__: not really with arm, with arm realtime
09:49 AM Eric__: we have been lucky with the pc platform, but as people have noted, that luck might be running out
09:51 AM skunkworks: I might be running a few tons of machines with linuxcnc..
09:53 AM skunkworks: just a few
09:53 AM skunkworks: probably close to 15 tons?
09:53 AM skunkworks: I think the k&t is 20klbs
09:56 AM pcw_home: I think PC hardware will be fine for 1 MS servo threads for quite a while. RTAI does seem to be fading away however...
09:58 AM skunkworks: people worry way too much about this.
09:58 AM skunkworks: concerding the current solution works quite well
09:58 AM pcw_home: Getting good software stepping has always required careful choosing of hardware
09:59 AM gregcnc: people are scared of linux to begin with. you tell them they need to find a PC that works just right and buhbye they just spend whatever they need to avoid it
10:01 AM skunkworks: You do need to put in your own elbow grease...
10:02 AM skunkworks: fo sho..
10:02 AM gregcnc: sure there is a certain contradiction to building or retrofitting a machine while avoiding certain aspects all together
10:02 AM skunkworks: these 8200/8300 seem to do 40khz or close to.
10:03 AM skunkworks: with rt_preempt
10:03 AM gregcnc: I'd have to check which HP SFF I have. i couldn't get the temp monitoring shut off
10:04 AM skunkworks: (but mesa is a lot better) :)
10:04 AM gregcnc: older... 8000
10:04 AM skunkworks: these are i5's
11:17 AM jymmmm: Any suggestions for a CHEAP/inexpensive 200A DC switch?
11:18 AM pcw_home: what voltage?
11:19 AM skunkworks: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Knife-Switch-Cu-single-pole-Single-Throw-30-to-200-A-250V-dc-500-V-ac/313177402565?hash=item48ead3ecc5:g:my4AAOSwokBfLcUh
11:19 AM skunkworks: :)
11:24 AM jymmmm: pcw 48V or less
11:24 AM jymmmm: skunkworks: lol, I have a 150A CB for $40 already =)
11:25 AM jymmmm: 150A would be fine too
11:27 AM pcw_home: starter solenoid?
11:28 AM rs[m]: big fat mosfet ;) ?
11:33 AM Deejay: mosfat!!
11:33 AM Agrubbs: Hi from Germany still in Cov Lock2
11:34 AM jymmmm: pcw maybe
11:34 AM Agrubbs: pcw_home, Sir are you Online
11:34 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: IDK, I kinda like the full mechanical aspect
11:35 AM pcw_home: somewhat, making breakfast
11:35 AM Agrubbs: Mr. jymmmm is there a kind of Logging here so to Follow the theme
11:35 AM jymmmm: Log
11:36 AM Agrubbs: Mr. pcw_home Id like to thank the 7i76e has made it to the Center
11:36 AM Tom_L: jymmmm, what about a contactor? they're cheap
11:36 AM Agrubbs: Mr. jymmmm Nice Readback
11:38 AM pcw_home: Ahh is the the RMA replacement?
11:38 AM Agrubbs: Is the log NY Est Time Zone
11:38 AM Agrubbs: Yes FedEx
11:38 AM Tom_L: central
11:39 AM Agrubbs: Got a Question on PWM Laser Engrave We got a 20W module Fixed Focus
11:39 AM Agrubbs: what pwmgen freq is to use
11:40 AM Agrubbs: it seams that This has got Quite a big effect on cut
11:41 AM Agrubbs: I did a new Configuration Standard Entry 0-255 RPM at 100Hz
11:42 AM Agrubbs: that seams to be Wrong as not cutting Good
11:42 AM Agrubbs: then i found Reprap A8 Convertion it uses 1000Hz
11:43 AM Agrubbs: Quite a Big Improvement 4mm at 120mm/min
11:43 AM Tom_L: servos?
11:44 AM Agrubbs: Birch
11:44 AM Agrubbs: no it is a Nema17
11:45 AM Tom_L: using pwmgen on steppers?
11:45 AM Agrubbs: no i'am Reading on 12000Hz
11:45 AM Agrubbs: no the Laser PWM
11:46 AM Agrubbs: as i'am a Metall Worker not a Micro Elektric
11:46 AM Agrubbs: for me i thought its the same Pulse Width
11:46 AM Agrubbs: but the Output is quite significand Different at the same RPM
11:47 AM Agrubbs: This China Lasers got no Datasheets
11:47 AM Agrubbs: so what happens if i go this 12kHz
11:49 AM Tom_L: i know nuthin about lasers but here's what google has to say: A typical pulse frequency range for a 20 watt fixed pulse width fiber laser is 20 to 200 KHz. The useful pulse frequency range is approximately 20 to 50 KHz. At pulse frequencies higher than 50 KHz, there is not enough energy produced in each pulse to do much work.
11:49 AM Agrubbs: Q: What im asking can the PWM break somthing on the Laser Board
11:50 AM Agrubbs: the 450nm Blue Lasers are not Fiber (Co2)
11:51 AM Agrubbs: 45 USD Only
11:51 AM Agrubbs: ok i will Check a Higher PWM
11:52 AM Agrubbs: Q: what PWM Rate can the parport PIN 01 go on Linuxcnc
11:53 AM Agrubbs: or better use a Datapin
12:01 PM Agrubbs: Here is a Test LaserCut https://paste.pics/a348cc08f94eb5c01681627fbbe09387
12:01 PM Agrubbs: at 1kHz
12:02 PM Agrubbs: the Engrave is S45
12:04 PM XXCoder: id suggest you make simple parallel lines changing setting acrpss those to find good settings that work
12:05 PM roycroft: well the qcad developer was nice and gave me a discount coupon for an upgrade
12:05 PM roycroft: i bought my copy 12 years ago
12:05 PM roycroft: that's a long time to honor an upgrade
12:06 PM Tom_L: and you haven't supported him since.. you should be ashamed!
12:06 PM roycroft: it's come a long way since version 2, and i think i can work with it
12:06 PM roycroft: i haven't used it since, either
12:06 PM roycroft: now i want to use it again
12:06 PM Tom_L: did you tell him that too?
12:06 PM Agrubbs: Mr. roycroft from the Education Licence
12:06 PM roycroft: yes, i told him that the product did not fit my needs well enough back then, and i continued to use autocad in the meantime
12:07 PM roycroft: but now it has enough of the functionality that i need to make it useful
12:07 PM roycroft: it also has some cam capability, which i'll probably check out at some point
12:07 PM Agrubbs: The Tangent Circle to Cirle is still a Mess
12:07 PM roycroft: that requires an upgrade, but he offers a discounted upgrade path
12:08 PM Tom_L: how much is it outright?
12:08 PM roycroft: it's still nowhere near as capable as even the old version of autocad (2008) that i use
12:08 PM roycroft: US$40
12:09 PM Tom_L: that's it?
12:09 PM roycroft: so yeah, it's less than 1/100th the cost of autocad
12:09 PM roycroft: that's it
12:10 PM roycroft: my job may be going away in the not too distant future
12:10 PM roycroft: i'm watching every penny i spend these days
12:10 PM Tom_L: aww spend it like there's no tomorrow!
12:11 PM roycroft: US$39 is the full price
12:11 PM roycroft: i got it for US$27.30
12:11 PM Tom_L: makes me wonder if it's any good
12:11 PM Agrubbs: New Q: on the Screens Available Is the Wizzard updated to Direct connect Silverdragon
12:11 PM roycroft: the cam version is US$109
12:11 PM Tom_L: 2.5d?
12:11 PM rs[m]: too cheap for Tom_LK
12:11 PM roycroft: probably
12:12 PM roycroft: qcad is a 2d cad app
12:12 PM Tom_L: rs[m], naw my cad cam is well over 25yrs old
12:12 PM roycroft: so there's no way the cam verison is 3d
12:12 PM Agrubbs: Freecad got 3D
12:12 PM Tom_L: and it still works fine for me
12:12 PM roycroft: yeah, but freecad is still useless
12:12 PM Tom_L: mine is full 3d
12:12 PM roycroft: it pisses me off because it's close to being useful, but isn't
12:13 PM roycroft: i have solidworks 2012
12:13 PM rs[m]: you can try qcad with cam functionality, the test version runs for 10 minutes and includes watermarks into PDFs
12:13 PM Tom_L: that's usually where they all stop
12:13 PM rs[m]: but you can save and fully use it
12:13 PM Agrubbs: Inkscape can do the Job
12:13 PM roycroft: when i used qcad before it did not even have paper space
12:13 PM Tom_L: 10 min isn't very long to learn a cad package
12:13 PM roycroft: that was pretty much a deal killer
12:13 PM roycroft: but it has that now
12:13 PM roycroft: and an ok cli
12:14 PM roycroft: 10 minutes per go
12:14 PM roycroft: you have to set a timer
12:14 PM roycroft: save after 9 minutes
12:14 PM Agrubbs: Qcad only safes R14 after 10min
12:14 PM roycroft: kill the app and then relaunch it
12:14 PM Agrubbs: you can Eork for Hours on this
12:14 PM rs[m]: Tom_L: a bunch of 10 minute sessions should be enough to decide to spend usd40
12:14 PM Agrubbs: No Need for relaunch
12:15 PM roycroft: if i decide to try the cam version i'll only need to generate gcode
12:15 PM roycroft: since i have the pro version now i can make drawings to my heart's content without restrictions
12:15 PM roycroft: i should be able to generate gcode from a drawing in 10 minutes
12:15 PM roycroft: anyway, i'm going to see if qcad works out for me
12:16 PM Agrubbs: gcode can be done in othere Free App as of 2.5d
12:16 PM roycroft: that would be one less windows app to deal with
12:16 PM Tom_L: it would take me longer than that to set up my tooling library
12:16 PM roycroft: one less virtual machine to set up
12:16 PM Agrubbs: i use most Sheetcam Community
12:16 PM roycroft: tom_l: you don't need to set up your tooling library to test the app
12:16 PM Tom_L: for cam you do
12:17 PM roycroft: you can't just set up a bare-bones library for testing?
12:17 PM Agrubbs: it makes 1000lines of code
12:17 PM Tom_L: there's plenty of cad software out there, very little cam
12:17 PM roycroft: yes
12:17 PM roycroft: one thing that is nice about qcad is that it knows dwg
12:17 PM Tom_L: i don't need it but just curious
12:17 PM roycroft: and can import/export dwg
12:17 PM Agrubbs: even Inkscape can Handle Depth on Color
12:17 PM roycroft: none of this dfx crap
12:18 PM roycroft: i should be able to open all my autocad files with qcad with no loss
12:18 PM Tom_L: i typically use iges anyway
12:18 PM Tom_L: for transport
12:18 PM roycroft: i need access to my drawing library that i've accumulated ocer the years
12:18 PM roycroft: over
12:18 PM Agrubbs: in the Center there is Heekscad on the Linuxcnc PC
12:18 PM roycroft: a lot of low end cad apps cannot open dwg files
12:19 PM roycroft: or if they do, only r12
12:19 PM roycroft: i looked at heekscad a few years ago
12:19 PM roycroft: i found it unsuitable, but i don't remember why
12:19 PM Agrubbs: the Trick is to use onlky the Community Education Version and Delete regular the CONFIG Qcad Folder
12:20 PM roycroft: the trick to what?
12:20 PM Agrubbs: to get the Full import Export
12:21 PM Agrubbs: only to the first 25Uses
12:21 PM * roycroft is lost
12:23 PM Agrubbs: Mr roycroft https://www.qcad.org/en/products/qcad-command-line-tools
12:24 PM roycroft: what about them?
12:24 PM Agrubbs: you dont need Qcad to open
12:25 PM roycroft: there are lots of dwg viewers
12:25 PM roycroft: i need to open and edit my autocad files with whatever cad application i'm using
12:25 PM Agrubbs: and a Batch makes your Autocad to full Compatible
12:25 PM roycroft: sure, but qcad can open them natively
12:26 PM roycroft: i can just git clone an old autocad project, and start opening and editing the dwg files with qcad
12:26 PM Agrubbs: Does it import the Corect Blocks
12:26 PM roycroft: i'll find out when i start using it more
12:27 PM Agrubbs: the Paper and Font
12:27 PM Agrubbs: I Personly got Problems on the Mesurment
12:27 PM roycroft: i'll keep an autocad vm around forever, probably, in case of any issues
12:27 PM Agrubbs: as the Main install on Qcad is to Arch
12:28 PM Agrubbs: an Wood is not Metall so it Messes UP and breaks the View
12:29 PM Agrubbs: as my Expirance
12:29 PM roycroft: most of my drawings are fairly simple mechanical drawings
12:29 PM roycroft: i started using sheet sets in autocad, and i like them, but i can live without them
12:29 PM roycroft: that's a feature that qcad is lacking
12:30 PM roycroft: and if i'm honest, once i started putting my cad projects in git repositories, sheet sets were less important
12:30 PM Agrubbs: Import does the Trick on Qcad
12:30 PM Agrubbs: to get the sheet on the Drawing
12:31 PM roycroft: if qcad does not support sheet sets i don't know how import would fix that
12:31 PM Agrubbs: ok we USE Powermill Now in the Center as Cam
12:31 PM enleth: Agrubbs: if I may ask, where are you from and what's your native language? asking out of curiousity.
12:32 PM Agrubbs: Germany Kaiserslautern
12:32 PM enleth: ah, ok. I was wondering about the word capitalization\
12:32 PM Agrubbs: I'am the New Guy in the Fromt line
12:33 PM Agrubbs: as of so many here did bevore
12:34 PM enleth: some native English speakers in the US write like this too, apparently they never noticed that the way the Constitution was capitalized kinda went out of style
12:34 PM Agrubbs: Someone started WAYback to Build all this nice Little CNC on Linux
12:35 PM Agrubbs: Mr. enleth Will i be Blocked on the spelling Fail
12:35 PM roycroft: wel, our constitution was written and ratified the better part of a half century before spelling and capitalization became somewhat standardized in the english language family
12:35 PM Agrubbs: as many Channels do This
12:36 PM roycroft: so basing spelling/syntax on that is folly at best
12:36 PM Agrubbs: After Sars-Cov19 ther might be changes
12:37 PM XXCoder: that writing style is very close to ich's style
12:38 PM roycroft: if we blocked folks here based on spelling/grammar/syntax ther would not be many people on this channel
12:38 PM roycroft: i'd have been blocked long ago
12:38 PM XXCoder: didnt say anything about blocking
12:38 PM roycroft: i don't think enleth was being critical at all
12:39 PM roycroft: i think enleth is just curious
12:39 PM XXCoder: just that his style of typing is similiar to ich's
12:39 PM XXCoder: made me wonder if he was student or something
12:39 PM roycroft: agrubbs asked that, xxcoder
12:39 PM XXCoder: oh
12:40 PM Agrubbs: XXCoder, Ich i Think he is the Guy that startet this all
12:41 PM XXCoder: if i remember right he was a busy guy, making many many small cnc machines
12:41 PM Agrubbs: as of the Usernames i got from the Center
12:42 PM Agrubbs: we got 25 Littleones and as i so far can Recall 10more
12:42 PM roycroft: linuxcnc actually started out as emc2 - a project by NIST, sponsored by the us air force
12:42 PM roycroft: it changed its name after a trademark dispute
12:43 PM XXCoder: roy yep
12:43 PM Agrubbs: the last Name on that List saying bbsr_5a
12:43 PM XXCoder: ich was working on freecad cnc Path preview when he died
12:44 PM Agrubbs: We are Very Very Old Here
12:44 PM Agrubbs: The Rooms of the CNC are Seald since March
12:45 PM Agrubbs: but need to Run on Saturday 31th Jan 2021
12:45 PM Agrubbs: as there is No General Lockdown in Place
12:46 PM roycroft: some will be vaccinated by then
12:46 PM Agrubbs: Mr. XXCoder May i Ask Back where you are From
12:47 PM XXCoder: sure im from usa. wa state, usa
12:47 PM roycroft: i'm still not sure what to believe about the vaccines, but the news seems encouraging
12:47 PM Agrubbs: Very Early there
12:47 PM XXCoder: 10 am not really early
12:48 PM roycroft: i'm wating for regime change before making up my mind about it
12:48 PM XXCoder: roy yeah 3 so far. one needing very cold temperates, one meeding booster to get from 70% effective to 90%
12:48 PM Agrubbs: Mr. XXCoder is There Snow at this Time of Year
12:48 PM roycroft: i'm in oregon, just south of xxcoder
12:48 PM roycroft: and it's almost lunch time
12:48 PM XXCoder: i wouldnt support any vaccine that was supported by trump admin, but none of em was.
12:48 PM roycroft: they both need boosters
12:48 PM roycroft: s/both/all/
12:49 PM XXCoder: nah it essentally never snows here. weather pattern is just wrong, even if can get cold enough
12:49 PM XXCoder: though we had "decade snow" 2 years ago. it was 6 inch snopw
12:49 PM roycroft: the issue with the astrazenica one is not needing a booster, per se
12:49 PM roycroft: it's dosing
12:50 PM roycroft: when both the initial dose and second dose is a full dose it's 70% effective
12:50 PM Agrubbs: New Question can i search the Forum on the Username for starting Post
12:50 PM roycroft: when the initial dose is 1/2 dose and the second a full it's 90+% effective
12:51 PM roycroft: the pfizer and moderna ones are really a lot more interesting, and exciting
12:51 PM roycroft: since they're mrna based
12:52 PM roycroft: they can be produced very rapidly, while the astrazenica one is a traditional vaccine that must be cultured slowly
12:52 PM roycroft: my concerns are about the safety of the vaccines, not the fficacy
12:53 PM roycroft: efficacy
12:53 PM Agrubbs: MRNA it the Future and the "Hell" of a Tool
12:53 PM roycroft: yes, i agree, agrubbs
12:53 PM roycroft: and not just for viral outbreaks
12:53 PM roycroft: it could be very effective for cancer treatment
12:54 PM roycroft: it may well be the mechanism for the "designer drugs" that researchers have been talking about for decades
12:55 PM Agrubbs: and the World oncemore regards to Germany as of the Timeline Development
12:56 PM Agrubbs: Whow i'am here so long now i cand belive the Time is Running
12:57 PM Agrubbs: I just came to thank PCW as of fast Delivering
12:57 PM roycroft: well, the moderna vaccine was developed by a us firm, the astrazenica by a swedish-british firm, and the pfeizer one a collaboration between pfizer, an us company, and biontech, a german company
12:57 PM Agrubbs: Bye and Keep Save Masking
01:01 PM roycroft: i hope, btw, that the real priority for who gets the vaccin first is that the workers manufacturing and distributing it get their shots before anyone else
01:01 PM roycroft: 'cuz that just makes sense
01:02 PM XXCoder: yep then hospitals
01:02 PM gregcnc: isn't that discrimination?
01:02 PM XXCoder: usa its apparently bank workers
01:02 PM XXCoder: greg fuck yeah it is. its biased towards people who work to save us,
01:03 PM gregcnc: what about all the rich who also want it?
01:03 PM XXCoder: thats what usa went for. hence bank workers being first
01:03 PM XXCoder: thats hearsay tho so dunno
01:10 PM roycroft: it's counterproductive to not protect the people who make and administer the vaccine first
01:10 PM XXCoder: yep!
01:10 PM gregcnc: our county isn't on the first list
01:11 PM roycroft: from what i've read about how it's going to be distributed, i'm not unhappy
01:11 PM roycroft: it may not be the ideal way to do it, but it's probably the simplest effective way
01:12 PM gregcnc: in the end it won't really matter
01:12 PM roycroft: i'll take simple and bulletproof over optimal but fragile
01:12 PM roycroft: it won't matter en masse
01:12 PM roycroft: it will matter to some individuals
01:12 PM roycroft: but that's just how life works
01:13 PM roycroft: and if you're rich enough you're going to get your vaccine whenever you want
01:13 PM roycroft: don't even pretend that's not going to happen
01:20 PM gregcnc: so some are screwed no matter what?
01:20 PM roycroft: everyone who wants the vaccine will get it
01:20 PM roycroft: the only people who will be "screwed" are the anti-vaxers, who will be screwing themselves
01:20 PM gregcnc: lol
01:20 PM roycroft: and this is a big difference between the current regime and the incoming one
01:20 PM roycroft: the incoming one will make it available to everyone
01:20 PM roycroft: regardless of immigration status or anything else
01:20 PM gregcnc: available or mandatory?
01:20 PM roycroft: because it's in the best interest of everyone to get as many people vaccinated as possible
01:20 PM rs[m]: the interesting thing about the mRNA vaccines (the secret sauce) is, how do you convince a cell to let mRNA in
01:22 PM roycroft: the chinese are taking a completely different approach - they're using the traditional method of deactivating the actual virus, and injecting that
01:22 PM rs[m]: RNA is also not the same, i think moderna uses a modified skeleton and "uracil" or other modified bases that are more chemically stable
01:22 PM roycroft: the russians are doing whateer they ar doing
01:22 PM rs[m]: hence the "not quite as cold" cooling requirements of the moderna vaccine vs. pfizer
01:22 PM roycroft: yes, i should be more clear on that
01:22 PM rs[m]: (which needs to be kept at -70C or so)
01:22 PM roycroft: everyone is making rna that does the same coding
01:23 PM roycroft: but they're putting the rna strands together differently
01:23 PM roycroft: in other words, everyone is making rna that makes the same protein
01:23 PM rs[m]: i have no knowledge about the russian vaccine except it is called sputnik v
01:23 PM roycroft: that's because it's a secret
01:24 PM roycroft: it might just be saline
01:24 PM roycroft: if there's any government i trust less than the current one in the us regarding covid-19, it's the russians
01:24 PM gregcnc: so is the common cold next?
01:24 PM rs[m]: i would not underestimate them, i think they know what they are doing (in principle), they are just using "russian" methods
01:24 PM roycroft: the common cold will probably never be eradicated
01:25 PM roycroft: because it mutates so rapidly
01:25 PM rs[m]: there is not "the" common cold, but i think about 25,3
01:25 PM roycroft: right
01:25 PM roycroft: there's a different common cold wherever you look
01:25 PM roycroft: and whenever you look
01:25 PM gregcnc: flu then?
01:25 PM rs[m]: adeno, corona, influenza etc.. virusses
01:25 PM roycroft: we may have more effective flu vaccines after this
01:26 PM gregcnc: why not before?
01:26 PM rs[m]: flu changes too rapidly
01:26 PM rs[m]: but it is possible new flu vaccines can be made like these RNA vaccines
01:26 PM roycroft: yes, but two of the vaccine candidates for sars-cov19 are the first two rna-based vaccines
01:26 PM rs[m]: i.e. no more "fertilizing" 100000s of eggs
01:27 PM XXCoder: theres so many viruses variants in cold
01:27 PM roycroft: which can be developed, tested, and manufactured much more rapidly, as in an order of magnitude more rapidly, than traditional vaccines
01:27 PM gregcnc: tested?
01:27 PM rs[m]: but a rna-based flu vaccines would also only work for one flu season, if at all
01:27 PM Loetmichel: MAAN, constructing 3d parts without collision detect... just thrown away 44 catapillar track links after 28h of print time. Found a little fauxpas after trying to assemble them... Can you spot the difference? (new set already printing, but only 11 this time, less waste if i have forgotten more)
01:27 PM Loetmichel: Compare: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17990&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
01:27 PM Loetmichel: to: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17996&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
01:28 PM roycroft: so while we won't eliminate the seasonal flu, the efficacy of the flu vaccine may be able to be increased to the 90%+ tate, as the early results from the pfeizer and moderna vaccines indicate
01:28 PM roycroft: right now the flu shot is done this way:
01:28 PM roycroft: in the early summer epidemiologists get together and make a best guess at which strains will be prevelant in the coming flu season
01:28 PM roycroft: and they decide then on what to put in the vaccine
01:29 PM roycroft: then the vaccine is manufactured over the course of the summer
01:29 PM roycroft: and in the fall, people start getting their flu shots
01:29 PM rs[m]: this is the cause of my "if at all" comment
01:29 PM roycroft: if the guess is good, then a significant number of people are protected
01:29 PM rs[m]: if they guess wrong, flue vaccine doesn't work
01:29 PM roycroft: if it's not good, then not so many
01:29 PM roycroft: but with rna-based vaccines, they can wait until the end of the summer
01:29 PM roycroft: and make much better guesses
01:30 PM roycroft: because the time to develop and manufacture the vaccine is sho much shorter with rna-based ones
01:30 PM rs[m]: long-term, maybe everbody will have their own RNA synthesizer at home
01:30 PM rs[m]: even now a sequencer is not that big a machine
01:31 PM rs[m]: s/sequencer/synthesizer/
01:31 PM roycroft: rna vaccines really are the holy grail that researchers have been working on for decades
01:32 PM roycroft: it's just fortunate for us that the technology was so close to fruition right as the worst pandemic in over a century hit us
01:32 PM roycroft: if this virus were really sars-cov15, we might be in a world of hurt
01:33 PM roycroft: comparatively speaking
01:33 PM gregcnc: we survived then?
01:34 PM roycroft: we'd still likely be relying on traditional deactivated virus vaccines, which take a year and a half to develop and another year to manufacture in the quantity needed
01:34 PM JT-Shop: roycroft, is there a special marker for writing on wood? I want to label the species on them
01:34 PM roycroft: and we'd be seeing millions dead in this country alone
01:34 PM gregcnc: supposedly....
01:34 PM roycroft: jt-shop: i use a soft lead pencil most of the time
01:34 PM roycroft: if it's a fairly tight-grain wood, chalk works fine
01:34 PM JT-Shop: ok thanks
01:35 PM roycroft: i've found that with species like oak or ash or douglas fir, with major hardness differences between the growth rings and the softer wood, chalk can be difficult to remove
01:36 PM roycroft: s/douglas fir/yellow pine/ for you :)
01:38 PM roycroft: and you can remove pencil marks with denatured alcohol
01:38 PM roycroft: you don't need to sand them off
01:39 PM JT-Shop: didn't know about the alcohol, that's good to know
01:39 PM roycroft: although on pieces that are already milled, i usually write on a piece of masking tape
01:39 PM roycroft: just in case
01:39 PM JT-Shop: I broke down a 2 1/2" thick slab of black walnut last night to get all the good parts out
01:39 PM JT-Shop: thanks
01:40 PM roycroft: i use one of those silver welding pencils for marking on walnut
01:42 PM JT-Shop: hmm not seen them before
01:43 PM JT-Shop: yea they changed the delivery date to tomorrow on the insert head
01:45 PM XXCoder: after sanding, lightly spray it with water. let it dry off again, then sand off burrs again
01:45 PM XXCoder: then finally paint.
01:46 PM roycroft: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08LNVKKGG
01:46 PM XXCoder: bit more than dollar each
01:47 PM roycroft: they last a long time
01:47 PM XXCoder: lead is literally an alloy of lead and silver?
01:47 PM roycroft: and if they don't, then you're using them a lot and making enough money to afford them
01:48 PM roycroft: well pencils haven't had lead in them in centuries
01:48 PM roycroft: they're graphite
01:48 PM XXCoder: I know.
01:48 PM roycroft: and probably aluminium
01:48 PM XXCoder: its called lead anyway
01:48 PM XXCoder: thats why I said lead.
01:48 PM roycroft: anyway, those work really well
01:48 PM roycroft: on dark wood, scaly steel, whatever
01:48 PM XXCoder: in fact, way I said it above makes it clear I know normal pencils dont have literal lead.
01:49 PM roycroft: the "lead" is really soft
01:49 PM roycroft: it may just be a hard wax, and no graphite at all
01:49 PM XXCoder: revmark?
01:50 PM XXCoder: i have silver pencil somewhere. "lead" is actual silver, made as soft as possible. it was pretty cool, though it doesnt work on normal paper lol
01:51 PM roycroft: i don't think i've tried mine on paper
01:51 PM roycroft: but i use them on wood, and paper is wood
01:52 PM XXCoder: if it works on wood, it should work even better on paper
02:04 PM roycroft: so to get back to the timing issue
02:05 PM roycroft: the first application of a vaccine using rna encapsulated in lipid nanoparticles was approved by the fda in 2018
02:25 PM roycroft: so qcad seems to preserve my layouts ok, but it orients the blocks in portrait mode, while my layouts are all landscape
02:25 PM roycroft: that shouldn't be difficult to fix, and then i'll be in pretty good shape
02:37 PM roycroft: ok, that's fixed
02:42 PM roycroft: yeah, very little "fixing up" needed to plot an acad drawing in qcad
03:12 PM roycroft: i may be more of a pack rat than is good for me
03:12 PM roycroft: i just found a printout of an email i got in 1987 with some draft class 2 fax commands
03:18 PM Loetmichel: hehe, you seem to be the same tribe as i am ;)
03:20 PM roycroft: i've been scanning and shredding for a few years now
03:20 PM roycroft: but i still have a fair amount to go
03:21 PM roycroft: the pandemic times have definitely helped me thin things out
03:21 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: thats my mancave/workshop: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9033&g2_imageViewsIndex=2
03:21 PM Loetmichel: questions?
03:22 PM roycroft: the thing is
03:22 PM roycroft: you probably know where everything is
03:22 PM Loetmichel: i do
03:22 PM Loetmichel: most of the time
03:22 PM roycroft: and if you were ever to tidy up you would not be able to find anything
03:22 PM Loetmichel: true
03:34 PM Centurion-Dan2 is now known as Centurion_Dan
03:42 PM * JT-Shop needs to think outside the box and design this tail vise for the workbench
04:34 PM gloops: rustic - dont PM
04:35 PM gloops: oh wrong channel
04:38 PM veegee: My center punches are getting dull on anything but mild steel
04:38 PM veegee: Especially the starrett ones: https://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/117AA
04:39 PM veegee: I thought they'd use hardened tool steel, but it feels like it isn't
04:39 PM veegee: Might have to go with a carbide tip or something
04:51 PM FinboySlick: Loetmichel: I just looked at the workshop picture. I think you need to go ask to have your german citizenship revoked, this is doing a great disservice to my ability to stereotype you.
04:52 PM FinboySlick: Time for you to learn french, I think ;)
04:52 PM JavaBean: french is easy, its just 50 different ways to say "i surrender".
05:06 PM JT-Cave: December 7th... Pearl Harbor Day... the day my father who served in the Pacific on the USS Enterprise as a tail gunner in a Hell Diver died 12 years ago
05:07 PM JavaBean: R.I.P. o7
05:15 PM skunkworks: wow - just got our window 10 image installed on a vm.. it certainly took a bit.
05:15 PM skunkworks: (has some legacy stuff on it that you cannot install natively on 10 - like office 97)
05:15 PM skunkworks: yes - 97
05:17 PM skunkworks: but worked when we did an in place upgrade from 7
05:17 PM * JavaBean wants to say something, but remembers he saw someones system running win3.1 the other day... feels confuzzled
05:18 PM skunkworks: I think we still have a windows 97 install on a cmm
05:18 PM JavaBean: windows 97?
05:20 PM skunkworks: yes
05:20 PM skunkworks: the company doesn't like to spend money unless it absolutly has to
05:21 PM JavaBean: no no... i have heard of windows 95 and windows 98... but not 97
05:21 PM * JT-Cave has DOS 6.22 on the VMC
05:21 PM roycroft: that's because there's no such thing
05:22 PM JavaBean: i was trying to be nice, roy
05:22 PM roycroft: but if you really want it i'll sell you a copy
05:22 PM roycroft: i also have a bridge for sale
05:22 PM * JT-Cave needs to design a dead nuts simple tail vise for the roll around work table
05:22 PM * Tom_L has DOS 6.22 on a ssd
05:22 PM skunkworks: oh - yes - windows 95
05:22 PM skunkworks: sorry
05:23 PM JavaBean: you can get the tail vice part on amazon for reasonably cheap, jt
05:23 PM roycroft: i still have a windows 95 machine
05:23 PM roycroft: it's a pentium
05:23 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, wood or metal?
05:23 PM roycroft: and it has an eprom burner attached to it
05:23 PM roycroft: the eprom burner will not work with anything newer than windows 95
05:23 PM skunkworks: yep - lots of legacy junk
05:23 PM JT-Cave: the work table is wood and it's for wood, mostly just for sanding parts
05:23 PM roycroft: actually, now that i think about it, i have to open a dos window to use the eprom burner
05:24 PM roycroft: so it's whatever version of dos is underneath windows 95 that's the issue
05:24 PM roycroft: i haven't used it in years - i should plug it in some day and see if it still works
05:24 PM skunkworks: I figure there will be a win 10 update that will kill access 97 at some point.
05:24 PM roycroft: yes
05:25 PM roycroft: and 1. that update will be force on you when you do not have the time nor the desire to install it
05:25 PM skunkworks: right
05:25 PM roycroft: ans 2. it will happen right before you have a critical need to query a database
05:25 PM skunkworks: heh
05:25 PM skunkworks: well - we still have 7 machines to fall back on
05:25 PM skunkworks: :)
05:25 PM roycroft: because they're *really* good at knowing when users have a critical need
05:26 PM Tom_L: moral of the story: don't use windows 10
05:26 PM roycroft: and letting them know who is actually in charge
05:26 PM roycroft: this is one of the motivators for my taking another look at qcad
05:26 PM roycroft: i'll still prefer autocad
05:26 PM roycroft: but i think qcad is probably good enough
05:26 PM roycroft: and it does not require a vm
05:27 PM roycroft: i don't have a spare $5k for autocad mac
05:27 PM JavaBean: jt, about 66usd on amazon. from yost who i have heard decent things about
05:27 PM JavaBean: its just the metal bit
05:27 PM roycroft: a record-style vise would be fine as a cheap tail vise
05:27 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, what about something with a slide and cam lock?
05:28 PM roycroft: i'm really happy with my wagon vise though :)
05:28 PM JavaBean: that isn't a tail/end vice, thats a face vice
05:28 PM roycroft: yes, but it can be used as a tail vise
05:28 PM roycroft: if you mount it on the end
05:28 PM roycroft: heaps of folks have done that
05:29 PM JavaBean: and do the holes in that table right, you aren't wrong. but if its a movable table it will stick out too far
05:29 PM roycroft: it can be inset somewhat
05:29 PM roycroft: as long as there's still handle clearance
05:30 PM roycroft: i need to get my vise screws up on ebay soon
05:30 PM JavaBean: jt https://www.amazon.com/Yost-Tools-YEV17/dp/B01N3XU5PX
05:30 PM roycroft: i have a nice set of acme screws for a scandanavian style bench that i bought about 20 years ago and never used
05:31 PM roycroft: i'm so glad i never finished that project
05:31 PM roycroft: i like my split roubo bench way more than i'd ever have liked a scandanavian bench
05:34 PM JT-Cave: https://assets.leevalley.com/Size4/10052/06G0110-tail-vise-hardware-machined-handwheel-u-01-r.jpg
05:34 PM JT-Cave: I want to make something like that but not as robust
05:35 PM JT-Cave: but looking at the benchrafted vise the mechanics look simple enough to build
05:36 PM JavaBean: yup, just pointing out that you can get the metal parts of that vice cheap enough
05:36 PM JavaBean: and here is a woodriver, a bit better known brand https://www.amazon.com/WoodRiver-Small-End-Vise-Slide/dp/B0035YB2QY/
05:37 PM JT-Cave: what's the fun in that when I own a machine shop?
05:37 PM roycroft: the benchcrafted parts are pretty easy to build
05:38 PM roycroft: but the fit and finish is superb on them
05:38 PM JT-Cave: yea just looking at that
05:38 PM roycroft: that's hard to do
05:38 PM roycroft: the screws are prefectly smooth and highly polished
05:38 PM JT-Cave: this is for a mobile workbench not for hand work
05:39 PM roycroft: that's actually why i suggested a record style vise
05:39 PM JT-Cave: when I build a proper woodworking bench it will have benchrafted hardware
05:39 PM roycroft: with my benchcrafted screws i can spin the handle with one finger and rapidly close the screw
05:39 PM JT-Cave: I must have missed that
05:39 PM roycroft: but with your run-of-the-mill vise screws you can't do that
05:39 PM roycroft: the record style ones have quick disconnect levers
05:40 PM JT-Cave: ah
05:40 PM roycroft: so you can push the lever down, push the vise jaw in, and then snug it up wiht the screw
05:40 PM roycroft: they're half nuts in essence
05:40 PM JavaBean: didn't mean to "get in the way of your fun", i thought i was just saving you a few bucks
05:40 PM JT-Cave: sometimes saving a few bucks can bite you later
05:41 PM roycroft: try cranking a vise screw out 4" by just turning the screw
05:41 PM roycroft: and yeah, it's not as important as with hand work
05:42 PM JT-Cave: I have a couple of 5mm pitch double start ball screws but that's a bit over kill for this application
05:42 PM roycroft: when i'm hand tooling sometimes i have to open the vise every few seconds to move the work around
05:42 PM roycroft: so having a fast, easy vise screw is a pretty big deal
05:42 PM JT-Cave: yea for that I would have benchcrafted for sure
05:43 PM roycroft: i've had my benchcrafted moxon vise screws for a couple years now, btw
05:43 PM roycroft: so two winters
05:43 PM roycroft: and not a bit of rust
05:44 PM roycroft: what i did was clean the handles really well in an ultrasonic cleaner
05:44 PM roycroft: then i applied cold bluing compound three times, to get a nice, dark color
05:44 PM roycroft: then i put them in the oven at about 100c for a while
05:44 PM roycroft: and applied gun oil while they were warm until they wouldn't take any more oil
05:45 PM JT-Cave: wow that should last a long time
05:45 PM roycroft: i should probably reoil them eventually, but so far they've held up great
05:45 PM roycroft: yeah, it's a good method
05:45 PM roycroft: the bluing itself offers some corrosion resistance
05:46 PM roycroft: but the gun oil is what really protects them
05:46 PM roycroft: and that heating lets the castings soak up a lot of oil
05:49 PM JT-Cave: I have a hot blacking setup but have not used it in years
06:02 PM roycroft: if you want something cheap and easy, you can mount a pipe clamp or two in the end of the bench to use as a tail vise
06:04 PM JT-Cave: not quite that cheap and easy but pretty simple for sure
06:05 PM JT-Cave: the table top is only 1 3/8" thick so some thinking outside the box is needed for sure
07:56 PM _unreal_: DAMN IT I only ordered 2
07:56 PM _unreal_: no wonder I cant find them
08:02 PM unterhaus_: I got interested in how to change my lathe so it would do metric threads. Turns out it's a load of gears that I have to make
08:02 PM unterhaus_: as opposed to the timing belt system on it now
08:07 PM unterhaus_: Be a lot easier to drive the gearbox with a servo drive synced up to the spindle.
08:09 PM unterhaus_: can you do things like that with hal?
08:10 PM enleth: unterhaus_: yes, you need a decent encoder on the spindle, though
08:11 PM unterhaus_: wonder if I can use the timing pulley
08:11 PM Tom_L: sure can
08:11 PM Tom_L: that's how rigid tapping works
08:12 PM unterhaus_: that's what I was thinking, it's rigid tapping on its side
08:12 PM Tom_L: need an index pulse
08:13 PM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV7crK24eCE
08:15 PM unterhaus_: that's just an index, right?
08:15 PM Tom_L: 3 channel
08:15 PM Tom_L: A & B and index
08:16 PM Tom_L: you need the index for the start
08:16 PM Tom_L: the regular quad for the sync
08:16 PM unterhaus_: so you're using the timing pulley or an encoder?
08:16 PM Tom_L: encoder
08:17 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Spindle/Pulley2.jpg
08:18 PM Tom_L: the left is the encoder on a 1:1 ratio
08:18 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Spindle/Encoder1.jpg
08:20 PM unterhaus_: have to think about using lcnc with this, I think I have a servo drive with electronic gearing built in
08:28 PM unterhaus_: I wonder if it will take 127:100 as a gear ration
08:28 PM unterhaus_: ratio
08:29 PM unterhaus_: I could copy your encoder setup, but I think I would have to cut a hole in the ceiling
08:31 PM unterhaus_: Tom_L, you have three transformers in your control cabinet, are they for servo drives?
08:37 PM Tom_L: no i got those surplus so i used them for my stepper psu
08:38 PM Tom_L: 33 mil in Ca on full lockdown
08:39 PM Tom_L: jymmmm ?
08:39 PM jymmmm: Tom_L: yes sire?
08:39 PM Tom_L: ^^ anywhere near that?
08:39 PM Tom_L: LA for one
08:40 PM jymmmm: full lockdown, where?
08:40 PM jymmmm: link?
08:40 PM Tom_L: hang on
08:40 PM Tom_L: starting today?
08:41 PM jymmmm: k
08:43 PM unterhaus_: https://covid19.ca.gov/stay-home-except-for-essential-needs/
08:43 PM unterhaus_: areas with less than 15% icu availability
08:43 PM unterhaus_: scroll down to the map and click to see icu stats
08:43 PM unterhaus_: the page could be more clear
08:46 PM unterhaus_: my son is coming home to PA from one of those locked down areas in CA
08:51 PM Tom_itx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1TozZbuIrw
08:53 PM Tom_itx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoIvEW2kKx8
08:55 PM Tom_itx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9gxeOXoals
10:03 PM unterhaus_: I think they should sentence those sheriffs to carrying bodies out to the morgue trucks