#linuxcnc Logs
Oct 27 2020
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:25 AM roycroft: so yeah, i just found some power connectors that i like and are reasonably priced
12:31 AM roycroft: well, a little higher than i'd like to pay - $12 for panel mount connector and $25 for the plug, but that's still tolerable
12:31 AM roycroft: but then there's the $550 crimp tool that i would need for them
12:31 AM Eric__: which connectors?
12:31 AM roycroft: https://www.mcmaster.com/power-connectors/number-of-poles~3/application~power/voltage~250v-dc/type~plug/
12:31 AM roycroft: i think i'll pass on those
12:31 AM roycroft: i already have too many multi hundred dollar crimp tools that i rarely use
12:31 AM Eric__: my guess is you can fake the crimp tool with something you can get on amazon
12:33 AM roycroft: i'm not super excited about how they would look in the panel
12:33 AM roycroft: but i only need one of thes
12:33 AM roycroft: e
12:40 AM roycroft: that makes the $550 crimp tool even more expensive
12:40 AM roycroft: $91.67 per crimp, assuming i don't mess up any of the crimps
12:40 AM roycroft: and btw, i remember when crimp tools were only $300
12:40 AM roycroft: not $500 like now
12:40 AM Eric__: yeah, when did that happen?
12:40 AM Eric__: they used to all cost $287
12:40 AM roycroft: i think it's the tariffs
12:40 AM roycroft: which would mean that if i buy one i'm chinese
12:40 AM Eric__: nothing wrong with that, but not a step to be taken lightly
12:40 AM CaptHindsight: for a few pins why not get the solde version of solder the crimp version
12:40 AM roycroft: i'll just get something different
12:40 AM roycroft: those connectors are really nice though
12:40 AM CaptHindsight: solder version or solder the crimp version
12:42 AM Eric__: 10a might be too much for an xlr, but I'm sure someone has done it
12:42 AM CaptHindsight: https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/nc3mxx 16A
12:42 AM CaptHindsight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Neutrik-NC3MXX-XLR-Male-Connector-10-pack-MAKE-OFFER-NEW/164432558766
12:43 AM roycroft: so i just have to get the correct xlr connectors
12:43 AM roycroft: i like xlr connectors generally
12:43 AM Eric__: 3 pin xlr look like they will take a boatload of current
12:44 AM CaptHindsight: 20A https://www.neutrik.com/en/neutrik/products/powercon/powercon-20-a
12:44 AM roycroft: i even use them on my brew control system
12:45 AM CaptHindsight: 4-pin versions for the steppers
12:45 AM Eric__: yeah switchcraft says a 3 pin will take 15a with 14 gauge wire
12:45 AM roycroft: powercon are ac connectors
12:45 AM roycroft: this is dc
12:46 AM CaptHindsight: https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/nc4mxx-bag
12:47 AM roycroft: i also need the panel connector to be male, and the plug to be female
12:47 AM roycroft: a lot of the ones i was looking at were backwards
12:47 AM roycroft: but otherwise suitable
12:48 AM roycroft: https://www.neutrik.com/en/product/nc3mpr-hd?c=audio
12:48 AM roycroft: that looks perfect
12:50 AM roycroft: dammit
12:50 AM roycroft: my bom spreadsheet is on my other computer
12:50 AM roycroft: now i have to get up and go save it and copy it
12:52 AM roycroft: oh, that connector is rated at 50v
12:52 AM roycroft: my ps puts out 53v
12:52 AM roycroft: that's probably fine, but i don't like to exceed specs like that
12:53 AM CaptHindsight: https://imgur.com/pLC4EhT how they ship from China, not a strain relief
01:05 AM roycroft: so it appears that the main concern about using ac-rated connectors for dc power is that dc tends to arc more and the arc is sustained longer than ac when connecting/disconnecting under power
01:06 AM roycroft: i do not intend to ever touch this under power
01:06 AM roycroft: so i think i'm ok at using ac-rated connectors for this
01:06 AM roycroft: which opens up a whole world of other options
01:29 AM roycroft: several members of the u of oregon football team just tested positive
01:39 AM CaptHindsight: https://imgur.com/gallery/I3kpWfn CNC fun
01:51 AM Deejay: moin
02:19 AM Loetmichel: mornin'
04:57 AM JT-Cave: morning
04:57 AM XXCoder: yo
04:58 AM JT-Cave: 41°F raining since yesterday
05:44 AM Tom_L: morning
05:44 AM XXCoder: yo
05:44 AM Tom_L: 27F Hi 33 with more snow on the way
06:36 AM JT-Cave: rain here
06:36 AM JT-Cave: till Thursday
06:36 AM XXCoder: here nothing till friday
07:48 AM JT-Cave: neither rain nor snow or cold will keep a Chicken Tender from picking up poop and feeding the flock
07:48 AM Tom_L: so much for today.
07:48 AM Tom_L: freezing rain and was headed out of town
07:49 AM Tom_L: got out on the highway and turned around
07:49 AM JT-Cave: hit some black ice?
07:53 AM JavaBean: my forecasted low was 24f currently my thermometer says 21f. forecast high today is 28f. wednesday morning calling for 23f. currently a bit of snow on the ground, in the deserts of far west texas
07:54 AM Tom_L: JT-Cave, no not yet but it was going to be
07:54 AM Tom_L: rain turned to sleet to sticking to the road by the time i got back
07:58 AM Centurion-Dan2 is now known as Centurion_Dan
08:03 AM JavaBean: ew, i hated it when it would slush outside. and yeah, driving in that is never good
09:16 AM JT-Cave: yea my debounce library is coming together nicely
09:22 AM rs[m]: debounce library?
10:11 AM jymmmm: Morning, welcome to blackout day #3
10:11 AM * Tom_L bumps into jymmmm in the dark
10:12 AM Tom_L: oh.. hi
10:12 AM JT-Shop: nasty cold rain today
10:12 AM JT-Shop: rs[m], yea for the Rpi
10:12 AM Tom_L: i'll share what i got if ya want
10:13 AM Tom_L: JT-Shop, sample and average hits?
10:13 AM jymmmm: Tom_L: haha, sadly that's the one thing I have covered. battery backed led 120vac light bulb
10:13 AM JT-Shop: no, I'm using the monotonic_ns time
10:15 AM jymmmm: Tom_L: But my generator is going wonky, have replacment parts on the way in a week.
10:16 AM roycroft: jt-shop: i finally took a couple pictures of my finshed workbench
10:17 AM roycroft: www.roycroft.us/Bench/Bench-Finished-1.jpeg
10:17 AM roycroft: www.roycroft.us/Bench/Bench-Finished-2.jpeg
10:17 AM roycroft: www.roycroft.us/Bench/Leg-Vise.jpeg
10:17 AM roycroft: www.roycroft.us/Bench/Bench-Dog.jpeg
10:18 AM jymmmm: roycroft: looks nice
10:19 AM roycroft: thanks
10:22 AM beachbumpete1: what is blackout day #3?
10:25 AM jymmmm: FWIW.... I have a 300WH APC UPS, it's annoyingly sensative to mains power variations, But when the gen is cold, it's clean power, but once warmed up, the UPS gripes big time switching to battery. I'm testing a new inverter, so I put the UPS on the cheap inverter and likes it even though it's modified sinewave.
10:26 AM jymmmm: beachbumpete1: Literally that, electricity is off for the 3rd day.
10:27 AM roycroft: there's a sensitivity button on the back of those apc upses
10:27 AM jymmmm: roycroft: It's on the lowest setting.
10:27 AM roycroft: you can adjust it so that it won't kick in when the power gets a little dirty
10:27 AM roycroft: oh, so the power is really dirty
10:28 AM jymmmm: Yeah, its' how I know the generator is being wonky. New brueshes and AVR are on the way.
10:29 AM roycroft: sadly, i think these blackouts are a part of life for you now
10:29 AM roycroft: for the forseeable future
10:29 AM jymmmm: roycroft: Yeah, I think so too.
10:29 AM roycroft: even if the state were to take over the power distribution grid it would take years to clean things up so that they don't have to shut down whenever the wind blows
10:31 AM jymmmm: I pulled out my propane heater, and found the hose was clogged. spent two hours taking it apart trying to see where the clog was. Never did get it working. Luckily enough I had another hose and got that working, then hit tractor supply the next day to get a propane fuel filter.
10:33 AM Tom_L: jymmmm, you may as well be living off grid in a tiny house :)
10:33 AM Tom_L: fires come, hook up and move
10:35 AM JT-Cave: Tom_L, https://dpaste.com/GFQ7DM2B5
10:35 AM JT-Cave: that's the debounce lib
10:36 AM JT-Cave: https://dpaste.com/6T7TNU8GP
10:36 AM JT-Cave: an example using it
10:38 AM jymmmm: Tom_L: Yeah, no doubt. I'm actually considering VANLIFE as one option. Grab an improved parcel (septic/water/power) then toss on a 40ft shipping container for storage. I've always wanted to try the geothermal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD_3_gsgsnk
10:40 AM Tom_L: at what year is there payoff?
10:41 AM JT-Cave: roycroft, looking sweet
10:43 AM jymmmm: Tom_L: Besides the labor, the only thing it really uses is eight 4" irrigation tubes https://www.homedepot.com/p/Advanced-Drainage-Systems-4-in-x-100-ft-Corrugated-Pipes-Drain-Pipe-Perforated-04010100/202282466
10:43 AM jymmmm: Tom_L: oh and a swamp cooler for airflow
10:44 AM JT-Cave: Finch sells a "Citrus in the Snow" report detailing his work with his "geo-air" greenhouses and says anyone can build a market-producing greenhouse for about $25,000
10:44 AM roycroft: thanks, jt-cave
10:44 AM JT-Cave: what are the recesses next to the tail vise handwheel?
10:45 AM roycroft: that's where the end cap bolts go
10:45 AM JT-Cave: ah
10:45 AM roycroft: https://www.roycroft.us/Bench/End-Cap-Bolt-1.jpeg
10:45 AM roycroft: https://www.roycroft.us/Bench/End-Cap-Bolt-2.jpeg
10:46 AM JT-Cave: wow that looks sturdy
10:46 AM jymmmm: I wasn't thinking greenhouse so much as offsetting home/shop heating/cooling
10:47 AM roycroft: sturdy is what that bench is all about
10:47 AM JT-Cave: I came home with a #1 kiln dried 2x12x12 southern yellow pine yesterday
10:47 AM roycroft: i do have a problem with it though
10:47 AM roycroft: i had to move it a bit to chamfer the end near the leg vise
10:47 AM roycroft: and now i can't move it back
10:47 AM roycroft: i pushed it as hard as i could
10:48 AM roycroft: i'm going to have to jack it up to move it back in place
10:50 AM roycroft: i'm also thinking about moving my lathe so that the end of the bench is clear
10:50 AM roycroft: it would be nice to be able to work off the end of the bench upon occasion
10:52 AM roycroft: i'd recommend cutting the pine to rough dimensions and then letting it sit for a week before taking it to final dimensions
10:52 AM roycroft: especially if you're going to rip it in half, which i would guess is what you're going to do
10:54 AM roycroft: my mill conversion plans are coming along nicely, now that i have the dc power connector issue sorted out
10:54 AM roycroft: i got stuck on that for quite a while
10:55 AM jymmmm: dc power connector? Molex?
10:55 AM roycroft: very few power connectors are rated for dc at any decent votage/current
10:55 AM jymmmm: roycroft: how many conductors, what voltage/amperage?
10:56 AM roycroft: the power supply is spec'ed at 48vcd, 10a
10:56 AM roycroft: but it puts out 53vdc
10:56 AM roycroft: what i've determined is that ac rated power connectors are generally fine for dc as long as one does not connect or disconnect them under power
10:56 AM Tom_L: mine is 48v 18A iirc
10:57 AM roycroft: and i do not intend to ever do that
10:57 AM roycroft: so i feel comfortable with using ac rated connectors for that
10:57 AM roycroft: i would never use an ac rated switch for dc
10:58 AM roycroft: it's all about the arcing
10:58 AM gregcnc: JT-cave how much of your IRA did you have to give for that stick of wood?
10:58 AM roycroft: jt-cave lives near southern yellow pine country
10:58 AM Tom_L: gregcnc, that and 3 prize chickens!
10:58 AM roycroft: it's building construction wood there
10:59 AM gregcnc: yeah it's forking expensive now
10:59 AM jymmmm: roycroft: 600V AC/DC @ 45A... https://powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpole-colored-housings
10:59 AM roycroft: here in the northwet, it's a premium wood that is fairly expensie
10:59 AM roycroft: i'm looking for a 3 conductor panel-mounted power inlet and a matching inline female plug
11:00 AM roycroft: i found what i need
11:00 AM roycroft: both for that and for the power outlets for the stepper motors
11:00 AM jymmmm: roycroft: you can condigure powerpoles to as many conductors as you want.
11:01 AM jymmmm: there is 75A as well as 175A too.
11:01 AM roycroft: oh, i see the connector housings there now
11:01 AM Tom_L: i used a pc pannel mount connector
11:01 AM roycroft: those are really cheap
11:01 AM JT-Cave: $24
11:02 AM * roycroft looks for the $500 crimp tool for them now :)
11:02 AM jymmmm: roycroft: $75 Iirc, $20 for the lower amperage ones.
11:02 AM roycroft: wow
11:03 AM roycroft: their $500 crimp tool is only $60
11:03 AM roycroft: what is wrong with those people?
11:03 AM Tom_L: they saw you coming
11:03 AM gregcnc: they crimp fine with kleins krimper, but you can distort them
11:03 AM gregcnc: the 10ga contacts are a pain
11:03 AM jymmmm: I crimpt with my T&B crimpers.
11:04 AM jymmmm: gregcnc: 10ga works good for me using the T&B
11:04 AM gregcnc: I've soldered 99% of the ones I've made, and that's hundreds if not thouasands
11:05 AM gregcnc: I used them mainly for RC, but hey aren't popular there anymore
11:05 AM gregcnc: I used them on the 4th axis for my mill and regret it
11:05 AM jymmmm: gregcnc: https://www.amazon.com/Thomas-Betts-WT111M-Insulated-Terminals/dp/B0018LD2PU
11:06 AM jymmmm: gregcnc: with a lifetime warranty on them. Best damn crimpers ever
11:06 AM roycroft: why do you regret it?
11:06 AM gregcnc: yeah I have spanon and Klein version
11:06 AM gregcnc: snapon
11:06 AM Tom_L: jymmmm, they even show which side is GND!
11:06 AM jymmmm: gregcnc: These predate both of those actually
11:06 AM roycroft: my klein hand crimper tool is almost identical to that thomas betts
11:07 AM jymmmm: T&B came out with them before snapon and klein, and I feel have a better design than bot
11:07 AM jymmmm: both*
11:07 AM gregcnc: the snapon was better, but I killed the cutter by cutting through wires on live car battery oops.
11:07 AM Tom_L: they're not guaranteed for that ya know
11:08 AM gregcnc: I got them in 95 if I remember
11:08 AM jymmmm: HB has a hydralic crimper too that's suppose to be pretty good.
11:09 AM jymmmm: HF*
11:13 AM roycroft: i just got the hf hydraulic panel punch
11:13 AM roycroft: i don't really need it, but i ordered some chassis punches that i need, and they do not come with draw bolts
11:13 AM roycroft: they're designed to use a hydraulic punch, so i thought i'd see how the hf one works
11:14 AM jymmmm: gregcnc: I never realized that PP75 was good for up to 120A
11:14 AM roycroft: the hf one is allegedly compatible with greenlee
11:14 AM jymmmm: gregcnc: up to 6 gauge
11:14 AM roycroft: and i have confirmed that the small stud is 7/16", not 11mm
11:15 AM roycroft: so this greenlee compatibility thing may be true - i hope it is, because the chassis punches i ordered are for the greenlee
11:15 AM jymmmm: roycroft: nice, let us know when you try them out
11:16 AM gregcnc: I haven't looked at those specs for decades. I do use the 75 on a spare battery I keep and have used it countless times for jump starting cars
11:16 AM jymmmm: gregcnc: https://www.andersonpower.com/us/en/resources/PowerPoleResourcesPage.html
11:17 AM jymmmm: gregcnc: That page gives ratings and what gauages each can be used for.
11:17 AM gregcnc: i checked all that stuff ages ago
11:17 AM jymmmm: I've been looking for that forever, eeeesh
11:18 AM roycroft: the punches are due to arrive on thursday
11:18 AM gregcnc: looks like they expanded some lines
11:18 AM jymmmm: the powerwerx page sucks
11:18 AM roycroft: i'll make some test holes then
11:18 AM roycroft: they're rated for 0.120" mild steel
11:19 AM roycroft: and i just so happen to have some of that laying around, so i'll give them the good test right away
11:19 AM jymmmm: Ok, I guess it's time to start the generator, bbiab
11:19 AM gregcnc: the plastic housings fail over time. they are not very chemical resistent
11:19 AM jymmmm: gregcnc: easily replaced though
11:19 AM roycroft: i'll probably use 16ga steel for the actual back panel that i'm making, though
11:19 AM roycroft: but it would be interesting to test the punches (and the hf thing) at the rated limit
11:19 AM gregcnc: as long as it doesn't cause a fire
11:21 AM gregcnc: sometimes a big pain to push together or separate or they are loose
11:21 AM roycroft: the irony of this is that after i finish the cnc conversion of my mill i may find that i don't need panel punches any more
11:21 AM roycroft: the mill would be able to do most of that work, if not al lof it
11:22 AM roycroft: but it may be faster to use the punches than to set up and program the work on the mill
11:48 AM roycroft: i've used those anderson connectors in the past, btw, for ups battery disconnects
11:48 AM roycroft: i don't remember how i terminated the wires though - i'm thinking i probably used my hydraulic power crimper, as i was using 6ga wire for the ups batteries
11:49 AM roycroft: i doubt i soldered them - i always prefer crimping vs. soldering when crimping properly is an option
11:50 AM roycroft: i used the sb series, not the powerpole series, though
11:58 AM jymmmm: gregcnc: What chemicals are you using on your connectors?
11:59 AM jymmmm: Ok, generator running and electric heater heating the bathroom so I can take a shower and not freeze by butt off :D
12:02 PM jymmmm: roycroft: I HATE soldered high current connectors
12:03 PM jymmmm: Whats worse is when people solder AND crimp, that's a big no no, but they don't get it.
12:03 PM roycroft: it's totally wrong to solder and crimp
12:04 PM roycroft: and would fail any inspection
12:04 PM jymmmm: exactly, but people do it thinking it's "better", when it's really much worse.
12:05 PM roycroft: much much worse
12:06 PM jymmmm: gregcnc: Hey, I just saw this on that page I linked you to... "Chemical Resistant Housings available"
12:06 PM * JT-Shop wonders if I can find the stair layout things for the framing square... last time I used them was in 1998
12:06 PM roycroft: the anderson stuff looks nice, but they don't have a 2 conductor panel mount
12:06 PM roycroft: just 4 conductor, and i'd rather not have any dummy connectors
12:07 PM roycroft: nor do i want to use the sb style with a clamp, like i do on upses
12:07 PM jymmmm: JT Those lil hex things with a slot and thumbscrew?
12:07 PM roycroft: you can probably machine some faster than finding them :)
12:09 PM JT-Shop: yea, I have the box I used back then to store my tools in... I'll look there first
12:10 PM jymmmm: roycroft: https://powerwerx.com/panelpole-panel-mount-powerpole-housing
12:10 PM jymmmm: theres a 2 onductor somewhere too
12:10 PM roycroft: i could not find one
12:10 PM roycroft: and i also went to anderson's website
12:11 PM roycroft: what a pain in the butt that is
12:11 PM roycroft: everything is in download only pdfs
12:11 PM roycroft: i got tired of that before i downloaded the first sheet
12:11 PM jymmmm: roycroft: https://powerwerx.com/anderson-1463g1-powerpole-mounting-clamp
12:11 PM jymmmm: roycroft: you could make those yourself
12:11 PM roycroft: oh, yeah
12:12 PM roycroft: i saw that but i did not like it
12:12 PM jymmmm: roycroft: looky a dimentional drawing... https://powerwerx.azureedge.net/productattachments/114207s1.pdf
12:13 PM roycroft: oh, i see
12:13 PM roycroft: those fingers are just the holders that go behind the panel
12:13 PM roycroft: i can still do a clean panel cutout
12:13 PM roycroft: that would work
12:13 PM roycroft: and i could even do 3 conductors, which would be nice
12:14 PM jymmmm: roycroft: Here's a 4c https://powerwerx.com/anderson-1462g3-powerpole-mounting-clamp
12:14 PM roycroft: i was already planning on tying ground from the power supply to the controller chassis, and i could do that in the same cable if i made it 3 conductors
12:14 PM jymmmm: roycroft: https://powerwerx.azureedge.net/productattachments/114208s1.pdf
12:15 PM jymmmm: roycroft: they even show a 3C version
12:15 PM roycroft: yes, i can make that work
12:15 PM roycroft: and anderson will even make a custom cable for me cheaply
12:16 PM roycroft: i'm not sure if i can order that through powerex
12:16 PM roycroft: powerwerx
12:16 PM roycroft: but from anderson directly it would cost me about $20 for a pre-made custom cable
12:17 PM roycroft: probably with a $50 shipping charge though :)
12:19 PM jymmmm: roycroft: the panel clamps? the y are $4.24 https://powerwerx.com/anderson-1462g3-powerpole-mounting-clamp
12:20 PM jymmmm: Get a 4c and only use 3c
12:23 PM roycroft: https://www.andersonpower.com/shop/2002g1kit-saf-d-gridr-400-receptacle-housing-kit.html
12:23 PM roycroft: actually, that's perfect for my application
12:26 PM roycroft: except there are no plugs for it
12:26 PM roycroft: just receptacles
12:26 PM roycroft: i guess they're pretty safe if nothing will plug into them
12:28 PM roycroft: they must have some other product line that works with those receptacles
12:54 PM veegee: I'm finding lots of good deals on kijiji for used EV A123 LiFePO4 packs
12:54 PM veegee: like $100/kWh for cells with 90% of original capacity
12:55 PM veegee: I think I'll take a leap of faith and buy 10 40V packs
12:57 PM JT-Shop: https://www.andersonpower.com/content/dam/app/ecommerce/product-pdfs/misc12052018/ds-sdg.pdf
12:58 PM JT-Shop: 2034KZ2
12:59 PM * JT-Shop guesses he needs to drag a 2x12x12PT to the slope and see what angle he gets for the stairs
01:10 PM roycroft: i just got a robocall whose caller id said "state of jefferson"
01:11 PM roycroft: i was certain it would be a political call for alec scarlotti, republican candidate for congress
01:11 PM roycroft: so i picked up, and it was exactly that
01:12 PM Loetmichel: hehe
01:12 PM roycroft: jymmmm lives in jefferson
01:12 PM roycroft: i live north of jefferson
01:13 PM gregcnc: jymmmm model engine fuels, gasoline, whatever
01:13 PM Loetmichel: i dont get that at all. I think it would fall under "election manipulation" to have a callcenter call voters here in germany. Not sure though
01:13 PM roycroft: but still in the district scarlotti wants to represent
01:14 PM roycroft: it's legal, but annoying as hell, here in the us
01:15 PM roycroft: and, as has always been the case, the calls from democrats and progressive ballot measure proponents ceased completely a couple days after i returned my ballot, because they udpate their call lists every day and stop calling people who have already voted
01:16 PM roycroft: and, as has always been the case, republicans continue to call right up until election day
01:16 PM roycroft: because they do not update their call lists
01:17 PM jymmmm: IDK what REALLY would happen if California split off... Only thing up here is agriculture
01:17 PM jymmmm: And where... Sacramento? San Francisco?
01:19 PM roycroft: jefferson starts around chico
01:19 PM roycroft: certainly eureka/arcata would not want to be part of jefferson
01:20 PM roycroft: the "official capital" of jefferson is yreka
01:20 PM jymmmm: If so, then we be fucked.
01:20 PM roycroft: and roseburg, oregon is approximately the northern boundary of jefferson
01:21 PM Loetmichel: eureka... haaach, trip down memory lane... should get that series from amazon again.
01:22 PM jymmmm: There's no real revenue stream in any of that area.
01:22 PM jymmmm: Hell, not even an international airport.
01:27 PM roycroft: i think the proponents of secession would blame that on "liberals" who are keeping them from propsering
01:27 PM CaptHindsight: just move silicon valley up north to the woods
01:28 PM roycroft: i would be sad if jefferson were urbanized
01:28 PM roycroft: it's a beautiful part of the world
01:29 PM CaptHindsight: what would China do with CA if they were the contractors?
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: ask some real capitalists
01:32 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: Silicone Valley is dead
01:33 PM CaptHindsight: getting there
01:33 PM jymmmm: Hell Jefferson couldn't even highjack/pirate the California Aqueduct. Now THERE would be a serious revenue stream.
01:34 PM roycroft: a long time ago humboldt county was considered a candidate for joining jefferson
01:34 PM roycroft: if that were the case there would be significant revenue from argricultural products
01:34 PM roycroft: but there's no way humboldt county would join jefferson now
01:35 PM jymmmm: Yeah, control the water, control everything.
01:35 PM CaptHindsight: stand back and look at the bigger picture with CA, what revenue is there to be made up north? Privatize the water and start charging those down south?
01:35 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: I'd suspect SoCal would make a deal with Neveada and Arizona
01:36 PM roycroft: it depends on how the state would be split up
01:36 PM jymmmm: roycroft: Well, if it doens't include Sacramento, it be fucked
01:36 PM roycroft: certainly the proposed state of jefferson would be heavily reliant on the rapidly dying extractive industries
01:37 PM CaptHindsight: the fires will not be a problem if the area is deforested
01:37 PM roycroft: but if it were a northern california/southern california split, with the dividing line somewhere around san luis obispo, both new states would thrive
01:37 PM roycroft: here's the thing about the fires and forest management, btw
01:38 PM roycroft: 53% of california's forestland is owned by the federal government
01:38 PM roycroft: 4% is owned by the state of california
01:38 PM roycroft: the rest is privately owned
01:38 PM roycroft: the state can do nothing about managing the private timber land
01:38 PM roycroft: the state is supposed to manage the federal forest land for the feds
01:38 PM roycroft: but the feds are supposed to pay the state to do so
01:39 PM roycroft: this president has cut off that funding
01:39 PM roycroft: and is pretending that the land belongs to the state
01:39 PM roycroft: things are not as simple as the simpletons make them out to be
01:40 PM CaptHindsight: nah just pretend, live in the bubble, works for half the people
01:43 PM jymmmm: sad, but true =)
01:45 PM gregcnc: after the toilet paper run there are still trees in CA?
01:45 PM CaptHindsight: just imagine what a competent dictator can do here
01:46 PM gregcnc: we have our own here in IL
01:48 PM roycroft: most toilet paper is made from second-growth timber, primarly good pulp woods like pine and spruce for softwoods, and maple, birch, and aspen for hardwoods
01:49 PM roycroft: the forests in northern california are primarily logged for lumber, not pulp
01:50 PM roycroft: there are certaily some large pulp mills in the northwet, but it's still a fairly minor part of our logging industry
01:51 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: the plan might be to eventually take over Wi, In and Mi, at least along the lake
01:54 PM gregcnc: soon enough. high taxes will drive out those who can leave, to take over those areas and they will also fall
01:57 PM roycroft: high taxes are not the problem
01:57 PM roycroft: high taxes with no benefits to the taxpayers is the problem
01:57 PM gregcnc: tax payers is key
01:57 PM CaptHindsight: been working for millennia
01:57 PM roycroft: our tax model is based on feudalism
01:58 PM roycroft: the government steals from the poor and gives to the rich
01:58 PM roycroft: stupid bitch, stupid bitch, stupid bitch
01:58 PM roycroft: oh wait
01:58 PM CaptHindsight: sounds familiar
01:58 PM roycroft: that's dennis moore
01:58 PM gregcnc: power does that to people
01:58 PM CaptHindsight: "I don't mind"
02:00 PM CaptHindsight: "suck it up"
02:00 PM CaptHindsight: "quit whining"
02:01 PM CaptHindsight: self destructive middle and lower class that does not fight back
02:04 PM gregcnc: check out this 80/20 beast https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/tls/d/des-plaines-unfinish-project-8-4-cnc/7220208286.html
02:04 PM gregcnc: no price = if you have to ask....
02:05 PM roycroft: why would anyone use 80/20 like that for the undercarriage?
02:05 PM roycroft: that's ridiculous
02:09 PM CaptHindsight: someone that can not weld
02:10 PM Tom_L: yeah a bit on the crazy side if you ask
02:10 PM Tom_L: maybe he works at the extrusion plant
02:11 PM roycroft: don't get me wrong
02:11 PM roycroft: i like 80/20
02:11 PM roycroft: it's nice stuff
02:11 PM roycroft: but damn, it's expensive
02:11 PM roycroft: use it where you need it
02:11 PM CaptHindsight: someone that does not ask, they just do
02:12 PM roycroft: if the guy can't weld it would still be cheaper for him to buy a bunch of square tubing and pay a welder to make the undercarriage
02:12 PM CaptHindsight: they obviously don't understand machine design
02:12 PM CaptHindsight: they had money and some time and energy
02:12 PM roycroft: or at least money
02:12 PM roycroft: but
02:12 PM roycroft: now there's an incomplete project
02:12 PM roycroft: probably because the budget ran out
02:12 PM CaptHindsight: maybe a lesson learned
02:13 PM CaptHindsight: looks nearly complete
02:14 PM Tom_L: do you see a control
02:14 PM Tom_L: ?
02:14 PM Tom_L: or steppers/servos
02:14 PM CaptHindsight: just needs a pi and some drives
02:14 PM CaptHindsight: motors look there
02:14 PM Tom_L: i see Z yes
02:15 PM CaptHindsight: maybe he ran it and saw the problems
02:15 PM Tom_L: wonder if he used a long screw for X
02:15 PM Tom_L: that might start whipping around
02:16 PM Tom_L: he probably did, there's one on Y
02:16 PM CaptHindsight: more pics from the rear would be helpful
02:17 PM Tom_L: meh, i'm not in the market for it anyway
02:18 PM roycroft: i whip my router back and forth i whip my router back and forth
02:18 PM roycroft: just whip it
02:19 PM CaptHindsight: maybe he is a "anti-plater" or fears ferrites
02:20 PM CaptHindsight: "you must whip it"
02:21 PM HighInBC: whip it good
02:22 PM * JT-Shop2 wonders what his Bailey #5 is considered to be???
02:23 PM CaptHindsight: he knew that Devo was being so prophetic
02:23 PM roycroft: i would consider it to be a handplane
02:23 PM roycroft: a #5 is a jack plane, if that's what you're getting at
02:25 PM JT-Shop2: yes
02:25 PM JT-Shop2: thanks
02:25 PM roycroft: and it is what i always recommend as a first bench plane
02:25 PM unterhaus_: someone's project garage burned down near here recently, lots of cars burned with it
02:25 PM unterhaus_: one way of getting rid of projects
02:26 PM CaptHindsight: not for cons https://chicago.craigslist.org/chc/tls/d/elk-grove-village-high-speed-sensitive/7206099193.html
02:27 PM JT-Shop2: I have two #5's and a #3 but it's cracked
02:27 PM CaptHindsight: there are choices now for drills?
02:29 PM JT-Shop2: time for me to quit jabber jawing and cut the stair stringers
02:30 PM unterhaus_: when I moved my stuff around I found a batch of planes I forgot about.
02:31 PM unterhaus_: that giant cnc router probably just had a serious racking issue
02:31 PM unterhaus_: New owner probably should reorient x and y
02:34 PM CaptHindsight: ask questions first
02:34 PM CaptHindsight: ask people that know
02:36 PM * JT-Shop2 goes to Menards to get a new blade for the saw :(
02:38 PM CaptHindsight: just another reprap
02:41 PM CaptHindsight: the classic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PSG2al1Sus Homebuilt DIY pipe Gantry CNC 4 x 8 servo
02:42 PM roycroft: i should make one out of bamboo
02:42 PM roycroft: that would be fun
02:43 PM CaptHindsight: 20 years ago I had this idea for t-slot furniture with some style
02:43 PM CaptHindsight: walk in, sit with a designer, walk out with the "kit"
02:44 PM CaptHindsight: similar to a frame shop, all the extrusions in many colors in stock
02:44 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: and the fabric?
02:45 PM CaptHindsight: jymmmm: like Ikea, cushions and trim to match
02:45 PM jymmmm: ah
02:45 PM CaptHindsight: mix and match
02:46 PM CaptHindsight: even easier to do today
02:49 PM roycroft: were you going to serve swedish meatballs when people were done buying their kit?
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: pizza and burritos
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: until the wraps run out
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: hah, "MAGAmatics The existential threat to the data that helps America see itself."
02:51 PM roycroft: i wonder what the ikea experience is like in a covid world
02:51 PM roycroft: the arrows are strictly enforced now, i'm sure
02:51 PM gregcnc: sounds like the perfect kickstarter hwere you could retire to an islenad before deliviring anything
02:51 PM gregcnc: no everything is closed
02:52 PM roycroft: does the ikea website have one-way arrows?
02:52 PM Rab: My bro-in-law bought kitchen cabinets at Ikea. He says their curside pickup is a farce, and he had to go inside. But once in, he felt comfortable browsing: few people, easily avoided.
02:53 PM Rab: More Ikea employees than customers.
02:53 PM roycroft: i've only been to the oregon ikea store once
02:53 PM roycroft: and that was several years ago
02:53 PM Rab: Have tried to order curbside, can confirm that even the reservation process is an unusable farce.
02:54 PM roycroft: ikea is a post-milk crate pre-empty nester kind of store
02:55 PM roycroft: i don't fit the demographic any more
03:01 PM CaptHindsight: the Ikea near here is has opened, haven't been there yet
03:02 PM CaptHindsight: it's likely wear a mask and count people in and out like all the walmarts
03:02 PM CaptHindsight: but that has even stopped around here
03:02 PM CaptHindsight: mask sign on door that most ignore
03:03 PM gregcnc: really? i haven't been out any .gov told me to stat home stay safe
03:03 PM Rab: Hmm...just got a kit of aluminum pulleys from China and the bores are longitudinally scored, like they were reamed to final diameter with a press.
03:03 PM CaptHindsight: Milwaukee seems to enforce masks more than anywhere around here
03:03 PM roycroft: almost everyone wears a maks here
03:03 PM Rab: Pretty good fit for the 10mm shaft.
03:04 PM CaptHindsight: I forgot and had mine around my chin and was asked to cover up
03:05 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: are the holes on center?
03:05 PM gregcnc: face book groups around here devoted to outing shops/resaurants who don't comply
03:05 PM CaptHindsight: really! Bars around here don't even care
03:05 PM roycroft: i wish people would just use their heads instead of acting stupidly and irrationally
03:05 PM gregcnc: they are though
03:06 PM gregcnc: they are doing exactly what the media tells them
03:06 PM CaptHindsight: restaurants seem 50/50
03:06 PM CaptHindsight: some have empty outdoor tents with heaters
03:07 PM CaptHindsight: with 4 sides so it's the same as being inside
03:07 PM gregcnc: i laughed at that in the spring
03:07 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, that is a good question, and I don't have a way to test at the moment. The kit is offered in a range of bore sizes, so I guess the stock is bored with the smallest size and then it's drilled out per customer spec. The pulleys are an inch thick, I don't think they punched a 10mm bore straight through.
03:08 PM roycroft: there's actually better air circulation in a tent like that than indoors
03:08 PM roycroft: nothing like being in the open air, of course
03:08 PM roycroft: but it's better than being indoors
03:08 PM CaptHindsight: the closer you get to a city the more serious the mask wearing
03:08 PM roycroft: i don't know what i'm going to do when it gets really cold and rainy here
03:08 PM roycroft: i've been having dinner with friends since july
03:08 PM CaptHindsight: drove up to Minneapolis a few weeks ago, it really stood out
03:08 PM roycroft: always at outdoor venues
03:09 PM roycroft: the outdoor days are about to end
03:09 PM roycroft: this may be the last week
03:09 PM CaptHindsight: nobody in the rural areas had a mask on
03:09 PM roycroft: and i'm not ready to eat inside a restaurant yet
03:09 PM gregcnc: your governor allows seeing people outside your residence?
03:09 PM roycroft: especially with the huge spike in cases here
03:09 PM roycroft: my county is in phase 2 reopening
03:10 PM roycroft: but we may go back to phase 1 if the case cont continues to rise
03:10 PM Rab: https://www.ebay.com/itm/141930935533 9/10, decent quality, considerably cheaper than SDP/SI.
03:10 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: nice
03:10 PM CaptHindsight: yeah i think I pay 2x that at SDP
03:11 PM roycroft: in phase 1 there is no on-premises dining
03:11 PM roycroft: only take-away
03:11 PM gregcnc: half the counties in IL alrady went back to no indoor
03:11 PM roycroft: and yes, our governor allows people to go outside and see other people
03:11 PM roycroft: because she's a communist
03:11 PM roycroft: at least that's what we're told by the proud boys and their ilk
03:11 PM gregcnc: OK that got a laugh
03:12 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: hah, add "commie" to your list of words that have been redefined in popular opinion
03:12 PM gregcnc: anyone paying attention to Chile?
03:13 PM CaptHindsight: a little
03:13 PM gregcnc: next venzuela or will it work this time?
03:14 PM CaptHindsight: had shipping issues with Covid and riots
03:15 PM gregcnc: I have a package lost to Australia. It made it there, but hasn't moved since august
03:15 PM CaptHindsight: had similar to Israel and parts of Europe
03:16 PM gregcnc: I had some delays to europe, but nothing real bad. One to thailand also took quite a while
03:17 PM CaptHindsight: Priority packages went by ship
03:17 PM gregcnc: thailand wasn't much of a surprise though
03:17 PM CaptHindsight: was a 6 week delay from the tracking info
03:18 PM CaptHindsight: UPS International Air Freight rates did go up a bit
03:18 PM CaptHindsight: I need to find a good ocean freight service
03:30 PM Tom_L: submarine?
03:31 PM CaptHindsight: maybe
03:34 PM JT-Shop2: I've had packages take 3 months to move
03:34 PM Tom_L: my motor has been 2 so far
03:39 PM JT-Shop2: this Bosch 7 1/4" blade for deck/wet lumber sure cuts the PT nice
03:45 PM roycroft: i've only had one covid-related shipping issue of which i'm aware
03:45 PM roycroft: back in early march i had ordered some stuff from japan
03:45 PM roycroft: it shipped
03:45 PM roycroft: but the very day the container was supposed to loaded on a cargo ship japan imposed an embargo on all international shipping
03:45 PM roycroft: and the parcel was returned to the shipper
03:46 PM roycroft: i ended up having to wait a month and paying 4x as much to ship it via air
03:47 PM roycroft: because if you have a contagious virus that doesn't survive for long without a host, it's safer to fly something and have it handled by humans within a short time span from shipping to delivery than to have the potentially virus-laden parcel locked up in a cargo hold for a couple weeks while it's being transported across the ocean
03:48 PM CaptHindsight: yeah but the virus is airborne :)
03:49 PM roycroft: doubly so
03:49 PM roycroft: in fairness to japan, this was at the beginning of march
03:49 PM * JT-Shop2 has one stair stringer done...
03:49 PM roycroft: or maybe even the end of february
03:49 PM roycroft: the pandemic was just beginning
03:50 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop2, let's not over do it!
03:50 PM roycroft: and the entire world were in kind of a panic at the time
03:50 PM JT-Shop2: I'm taking 5 with Dave Brubeck
03:50 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop2, you building a 2nd floor to the shop?
03:50 PM roycroft: many countries were overreacting
03:50 PM JT-Shop2: stairs from the driveway level down to the chicken yard level
03:50 PM roycroft: dave was one of my favorite jazz composers/performers
03:50 PM Tom_L: ahh
03:51 PM roycroft: i had the privilege of seeing him perform once
03:51 PM JT-Shop2: cool
03:51 PM roycroft: he told a story about how he was playing in eugene in the late '70s
03:51 PM JT-Shop2: Tom_L: yea I've been wanting to build these stairs for quite some time now
03:51 PM roycroft: while animal house was being filmed
03:51 PM roycroft: and he introduced john belushi to jazz, while belushi introduced him to blues
03:51 PM CaptHindsight: rpybefore he died?
03:52 PM jymmmm: Just had an epiphany... My generator it putting out about 600F at the 1" exhaust. Would connecting (let's say) 20ft of 2" tubing (coiled?) cause any back pressure on the exhaust system, then allow for a heat exchanger of some sort? Seems kinda silly using propane to run the generator and more propane to run heater inside, when all that heat is just being blown into the air.
03:52 PM CaptHindsight: some back pressure
03:52 PM Tom_L: jymmmm, some
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: a little
03:53 PM Tom_L: that's how expansion pipes work
03:53 PM jymmmm: Even at double the diameter?
03:53 PM Tom_L: to one's advantage or disadvantage
03:53 PM JT-Shop2: yea 20' of tubing would make back pressure
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: 2" not so much
03:53 PM roycroft: if you rebuild the exhaust and make it larger diameter you can compensate for the coil that you want to stick inside it
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: what size engine?
03:54 PM JT-Shop2: better to have a bunch of short pipes in the heat exchanger... look at a steam engine
03:54 PM jymmmm: I'm open to other ideas, just first thought at creating some sort of heat exchanger. IT's a 7hp engine
03:54 PM roycroft: or you can wrap the coil tightly around the outside of the exhaust, and wrap insulation over the coil
03:54 PM CaptHindsight: surface area
03:54 PM roycroft: recovering some of that thermal energy would be good
03:54 PM CaptHindsight: maximize it between hot and cold
03:54 PM roycroft: and it's doable
03:55 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: https://www.duromaxpower.com/products/duromax-xp4850eh-4850-watt-dual-fuel-hybrid-generator-w-electric-start
03:55 PM roycroft: well, i worked through lunch today, so i'm getting off work an hour early
03:55 PM CaptHindsight: 212cc
03:55 PM roycroft: as in five minutes from now
03:56 PM Rab: jymmmm, if your tubing extends into the heated space, any leak could mean you'll never have an epiphany again.
03:56 PM jymmmm: Rab: LOL, true, I'd pressure test it of course.
03:56 PM jymmmm: Is exhaust gas corrosive ?
03:57 PM jymmmm: s/gas/fumes/
03:57 PM roycroft: it can be
03:57 PM gregcnc: ever seena rusted out muffler?
03:57 PM jymmmm: gregcnc: yeah
03:57 PM CaptHindsight: Liters per Minute of air required at maximum velocity (rpm) 3500 = 305
03:57 PM Tom_L: how much of that is from condensation though?
03:57 PM gregcnc: https://polarpower.com/products/generator-accessories/exhaust-heat-exchanger/
03:57 PM Rab: That's where acid rain comes from.
03:57 PM gregcnc: he's going to have condensation
03:58 PM CaptHindsight: so tilt the coil
03:58 PM Rab: Sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions.
03:58 PM gregcnc: at least if you give up the heat in condensation you're giving up a lot
03:58 PM CaptHindsight: he only runs it a few days at a time
03:58 PM gregcnc: web says it's a common thing
04:00 PM jymmmm: gregcnc: Damn, that would be perfect. What did you search for to find that?
04:00 PM Rab: But the fix is just to add another step of heat exchanging. Exchange the exhaust heat with a liquid medium outside, run the liquid to an indoor radiator. That seems to be what that Polar Power product is about.
04:00 PM gregcnc: exhaust heat exchanger
04:00 PM jymmmm: gregcnc: thanksss
04:00 PM CaptHindsight: safety vs efficiency
04:00 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: I'd assume the liquid is a closed system
04:02 PM CaptHindsight: sure but then you're wastin heat
04:02 PM CaptHindsight: are yah some kinna sissy?
04:02 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: ???
04:03 PM Tom_L: set the gen inside too. after all how hot does the engine case get?
04:03 PM gregcnc: if the engine was water cooled you could also get that heat with little effort
04:03 PM CaptHindsight: glycol danger
04:04 PM CaptHindsight: generator outside, wrap exhaust with coils filled with water, run coils to internal radiator with fan
04:04 PM CaptHindsight: safe and fun
04:05 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/spindle_cooler/Cooler5.jpg
04:05 PM Tom_L: that worked amazingly well
04:06 PM Tom_L: no heat transfer gel either
04:06 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, if the water circulation slows or stops, you could have hotspots and steam generation.
04:06 PM CaptHindsight: what the radiator cap is for
04:07 PM CaptHindsight: like those ICE cars
04:08 PM Rab: I went to an awesome party one winter. They had a product with an electric pump and two copper heat exchanger coils. One was in the fire pit, and the other was in a stock tank full of water. Toasty warm!
04:09 PM CaptHindsight: jymmmm was working on similar with salt as heat storage
04:09 PM CaptHindsight: so he knows how to build this
04:09 PM gregcnc: molten salt?
04:10 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.solarthermalworld.org/news/molten-salt-storage-33-times-cheaper-lithium-ion-batteries
04:14 PM roycroft: i'm feeling kind of lonely at the moment
04:14 PM roycroft: olivia has not called me all day
04:15 PM CaptHindsight: breakups are always difficult
04:16 PM Deejay: gn8
04:20 PM roycroft: what a relief
04:20 PM roycroft: i feel so much better now
04:20 PM roycroft: dr. ivanka trump has declared that the pandemic is over
04:20 PM roycroft: we can all go back to our normal lives now
04:20 PM gregcnc: finally
04:21 PM roycroft: what a nightmare sleepy joe has put us through these past months
04:21 PM roycroft: with his executive orders locking down the country
04:21 PM roycroft: and his bailouts of "democrat" cities
04:21 PM Tom_L: meh it was all a political hoax anyway :D
04:22 PM roycroft: if he gets reelected he'll bring the pandemic back
04:22 PM Tom_L: you're just missing olivia
04:22 PM roycroft: i hope she did not catch the fake virus
04:23 PM gregcnc: it won't be true until CNN says so
04:23 PM roycroft: no, you have that wrong
04:23 PM roycroft: it won't be fake until cnn says it's true
04:24 PM JT-Shop2: just need to sweep and the stringers are done
04:25 PM roycroft: are you building a stairway to heaven?
04:28 PM jymmmm: Ok, their smallest unit does 60K BTU and is $1800 using 316 (corrosion resistant), and 304 is $1200 with a 8 to 12 week lead time
04:29 PM Tom_L: had to be a catch
04:29 PM jymmmm: Tom_L: wdym?
04:29 PM Tom_L: cost and lead time
04:30 PM jymmmm: ah
04:30 PM _unreal_: so I blew one motor controller or it was already bad?
04:30 PM _unreal_: but I did more testing with an other one and its working amazing
04:30 PM Tom_L: jymmmm, talk to some hillbilly in appalacia and he'll hook ya right up with a heat exchanger
04:30 PM jymmmm: Ok, so maybe I could wrap copper tubing around the muffler?
04:31 PM Tom_L: jymmmm, i did that on my motor
04:31 PM Tom_L: worked like a champ
04:31 PM Tom_L: fill it with water and crimp the ends shut to bend it without collapsing
04:32 PM gregcnc: you'll get some heat
04:32 PM jymmmm: Tom_L: sweat on end caps during bending
04:32 PM JT-Shop2: roycroft: pretty much, a stair way to my chickens
04:33 PM jymmmm: gregcnc: Yeah, just need to find one of those floorboard radiators now
04:33 PM jymmmm: Climbing the Stairway to Chicken Heaven On Earth
04:37 PM * roycroft mentioned wrapping tubing around the exhaust some time ago
04:39 PM jymmmm: Is there such a thing is overcooling the muffler too much?
04:39 PM JT-Shop2: yes
04:50 PM veegee: Ok so I managed to put together a 400V, 7.5kWh battery pack using A123 LiFePO4 cells
04:51 PM veegee: I'm going to feed it into my VFD and see what happens when I power a 10kW motor on my air compressor
04:51 PM gregcnc: wow
04:51 PM veegee: 240V * sqrt(2) = 340V
04:51 PM gregcnc: what are you charging with?
04:51 PM veegee: They're 40V packs that came off of an electric bus
04:52 PM veegee: they still have ~90% of original capacity
04:52 PM jymmmm: Just checked, the MINIMUM clearance I have around the muffler is 1", max is like 2".
04:52 PM veegee: They're genuine A123 nanophosphate cells so I know they have plenty of life left
04:52 PM veegee: the VFD should be able to handle 340V peak, maybe slightly higher
04:52 PM gregcnc: jymmmm if that was my project https://www.ebay.com/itm/174361585788
04:53 PM veegee: so I guess I'll feed it less than that
04:53 PM _unreal_: FUCKING PHONE
04:53 PM _unreal_: god damn
04:53 PM veegee: I'm charging in parallel with a 40VDC source
04:53 PM _unreal_: turned it off
04:53 PM veegee: they're 40V packs
04:53 PM jymmmm: veegee: how many A123's are you using?
04:53 PM gregcnc: they normally shut down at 262VAC input
04:53 PM _unreal_: so its really wierd
04:54 PM _unreal_: these god damn motor controllers
04:54 PM jymmmm: gregcnc: I think I'm going to look at just wrapping copper tubing around the muffler, I have the clearance for 1/2 to 3/4"
04:54 PM _unreal_: I have 10 ohm resistors in line on every one of the the opto isolators and they work
04:54 PM veegee: Each 40V pack contains 96 cells
04:54 PM veegee: 12S8P
04:54 PM _unreal_: the green turn on line still does not come on BUT the motor controllers come to life when step pulses are sent
04:54 PM jymmmm: veegee: No BMS ?
04:55 PM _unreal_: and they I guess do a power save moments after the PULSES STOP
04:55 PM veegee: I have to design one. For now, using computer controlled bench power supplies
04:55 PM _unreal_: if I dont have the 10ohm resistors inline they just dont work well
04:55 PM veegee: with a program I wrote that follows the standard charging process, it works fine
04:55 PM _unreal_: so I dont know WHAT the hell caused that other motor controller to burn up
04:55 PM jymmmm: veegee: That's for charging them, what about overdischarging protection?
04:56 PM veegee: Close monitoring
04:56 PM veegee: it's an experiment, so I'm watching everything constantly
04:56 PM jymmmm: haha, you mean hand on switch other hand on fire extingusher =)
04:56 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, so at this point I've proven motion and what I need to do to get the @#$%@# motor controllers to function.
04:56 PM gregcnc: what are you charging to?
04:56 PM veegee: they're a very safe chemistry
04:57 PM veegee: standard for LiFePO4, 3.6V
04:57 PM jymmmm: veegee: maybe so, but can kill them too, but you already know that
04:57 PM _unreal_: tonight I'm going to get shit put back together and tie in the mesa controller
04:57 PM veegee: yeah going to put a fuse in series
04:57 PM veegee: with a disconnect box
04:57 PM jymmmm: veegee: Not fuses, discharging too much
04:57 PM veegee: No risk of that
04:57 PM jymmmm: veegee: how so?
04:57 PM _unreal_: BUT I need to set the arduino up the proper values for the half stepping so I can figure my number off sets...
04:57 PM veegee: it's a very short test and it's >7.5kWh
04:58 PM _unreal_: so I know what my max step rate is going to be with 1/8th stepping
04:58 PM veegee: running a 10kW motor for a few minutes won't come close to depleting it
04:58 PM jymmmm: veegee: ah ok
04:58 PM jymmmm: veegee: whats the C rating?
04:58 PM jymmmm: discharge C rating
04:58 PM jymmmm: ?
04:58 PM veegee: these nanophosphate cells are rated for burst 50C
04:59 PM veegee: max continuous 25C
04:59 PM jymmmm: ah ok
04:59 PM veegee: I'm not going to go over 2C continuous tops
04:59 PM jymmmm: cool
04:59 PM veegee: they came off of Toronto electric busses
04:59 PM jymmmm: veegee: ah ok
04:59 PM veegee: They decommission them at "end of life" (~90% of original capacity) but they have plenty of life remaining
05:00 PM jymmmm: Yeah, I understand
05:00 PM jymmmm: how much per cell?
05:00 PM veegee: worked out to $100 CAD per kWh
05:00 PM veegee: can't even get a shitty lead acid for that much
05:00 PM jymmmm: veegee: but how much was the cell from them?
05:01 PM jymmmm: the WWHOLE cell/bettery pack
05:01 PM veegee: you mean per cell cost?
05:01 PM gregcnc: A123 26650?
05:01 PM veegee: https://a123batteries.com/anr26650m1-b-lithiumwerks-nanophosphate-3-3v-2-5ah-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery/
05:01 PM veegee: yup these ones
05:01 PM jymmmm: did you buy the WHOLE module, or individual cells?
05:01 PM veegee: 10x 40V modules
05:01 PM veegee: each module contains 96 cells
05:02 PM jymmmm: how much was each module?
05:02 PM veegee: $90
05:02 PM jymmmm: ah ok
05:04 PM jymmmm: These look interesting, wish they had more specs... https://a123batteries.com/a123-systems-3-7-volt-26ah-prismatic-pouch-cell-amp26-nmc/
05:04 PM veegee: you can find for $60, but questionable quality. These ones have all been individually tested
05:04 PM veegee: Yeah I've been a fan of LiFePO4 since the beginning. Best chemistry in my opinion
05:05 PM jymmmm: I am a fan too, but the availability fuctuates a LOT
05:05 PM veegee: If you're in the USA, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001030205250.html
05:05 PM veegee: cannot beat that value ^
05:05 PM veegee: they have a USA warehouse, so free shipping
05:05 PM veegee: I would have bought those, but $300 shipping to Canada for each makes it pointless
05:05 PM veegee: And they're genuine cells, tested to perform as claimed
05:06 PM jymmmm: veegee: have you bought from them beforeE?
05:06 PM veegee: No but https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di2o7an-WJw
05:06 PM veegee: this kid knows his stuff
05:07 PM veegee: most people who talk about batteries don't know jack shit
05:07 PM veegee: I would ship them to my aunt in Buffalo, but borders are closed
05:07 PM veegee: so that leaves local used cells as the only sane option right now. Either that or Trojan deep cycle lead acid
05:08 PM jymmmm: veegee: Yeah, Will is knowledgable in most things.
05:08 PM veegee: I love how he calls out the dumbasses: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hX6O_erpEI
05:08 PM jymmmm: veegee: I'm dealing with another seller also has a US warehouse
05:09 PM jymmmm: It might be the SAME seller as you linked to, not sure.
05:09 PM veegee: yeah he mentions that various different sellers have all come from the same sender address
05:09 PM jymmmm: but I like that they are responsive to my questions
05:09 PM veegee: which seller?
05:10 PM veegee: If I can get the shipping sorted out, I'm buying those cells
05:10 PM veegee: so many lead acid dealers in Toronto alone, but why is nobody selling LiFePO4?
05:12 PM veegee: But Will needs to get himself a programmable DC electronic load lol
05:12 PM veegee: he just uses a shitty inverter for some reason
05:12 PM veegee: You can get a magnificent electronic load for what he spends on one battery pack alone...
05:12 PM gregcnc: really?
05:13 PM veegee: Absolutely
05:13 PM veegee: I have a 250W load for testing other stuff
05:13 PM gregcnc: .25kW?
05:13 PM veegee: but if I could justify the cost, $1000 will get you something great
05:14 PM jymmmm: veegee: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33017301036.html
05:14 PM veegee: yeah 99% chance it's the exact same warehouse
05:15 PM veegee: the other store I linked is just more popular and known to sell genuine stuff
05:15 PM jymmmm: veegee: Yeah, it's honoring the warranty being the issue
05:15 PM veegee: This is the DC load I have by the way: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32904167711.html
05:15 PM veegee: it was cheaper when I bought it a couple of years ago
05:16 PM veegee: It's legit, very good quality
05:16 PM veegee: pleasant surprise, no engrish sperring error in menus
05:17 PM jymmmm: lol
05:17 PM veegee: http://www.maynuo.com/english/pro.asp?tid=25 they have up to 200kW units. But at that point, I'd just make my own
05:17 PM jymmmm: I need to take a break, bbiab
05:18 PM veegee: and they're accurate, I verified with my keysight 34461A bench multimeter
05:18 PM veegee: 34465A*
05:19 PM gregcnc: bah those aren't cheap https://www.amazon.com/Maynuo-Programmable-Electronic-0-240A-0-150V/dp/B00NN2EUE4
05:19 PM gregcnc: tha'ts what I knew they cost
05:19 PM gregcnc: from 15 years aog
05:19 PM veegee: he spends 10x that on batteries
05:20 PM veegee: more than that
05:20 PM veegee: and they're cheaper on aliexpress
05:20 PM veegee: also 1200W is a pretty big capacity for the functionality it provides
05:23 PM veegee: Also cheap compared to something from keysight/rigol/keithley
05:53 PM _unreal_: ok so I just opened the motor controller that burned? the motor controller its SELF does not look like it had any kind of a failure? no blown areas no nohting HOW EVER
05:53 PM _unreal_: there are 6 SMD resistors r470 that are toast?
05:53 PM _unreal_: large one's as well
05:54 PM _unreal_: they are surface mount r470 resistors any idea's what there current rating may be?
05:54 PM _unreal_: I'm wondering about replaceing them
05:57 PM _unreal_: do any of you guys know of any DUAL stepper motor controllers? for two bipolar steppers?
05:57 PM _unreal_: in the same form factor package as the geckos and like the one I have
05:58 PM _unreal_: one I have being https://kenswu.zzvps.com/Function/Manual/DS_FMD2740C_EN.pdf
06:15 PM _unreal_: GOD damn it, I just blew an other motor controller. BCNC for windows and linux are coded VERY differently
06:16 PM _unreal_: had it working well on windows moved over to the lcnc machine just so I could be closer to home and move my netbook back to being the home cnc machine computer
06:17 PM _unreal_: and the same settings function differently between the win and linux versions
06:17 PM _unreal_: I got one movement out of the motor controller and it POPed it
06:17 PM _unreal_: god these things are cheap
06:17 PM Tom_L: better find some decent drivers
06:18 PM Tom_L: if this is any indication of things to cme
06:18 PM Tom_L: come*
06:21 PM roycroft: groovy
06:22 PM roycroft: my cnc controller enclosure will arrive on thursday
06:22 PM Tom_L: wish you'd quit hoggin all the deliverys. i'd like a couple here
06:23 PM _unreal_: it was working just fine
06:23 PM _unreal_: its the MAX step rate that seems to kill them
06:23 PM _unreal_: the step rate was somehow on 15000
06:24 PM roycroft: if they all show up
06:24 PM _unreal_: I thought I had adjusted the setting but it looks like the windows version does soft settings
06:24 PM _unreal_: and does not update the EEPROM on the arduino
06:24 PM _unreal_: the linux version adjustes the values in the EEPROM
06:25 PM roycroft: i'm going to start working on a mockup of my control panel in the meantime
06:25 PM _unreal_: so ya the first big MOVE I made was ok. then I upped the distance. hum upped it to a larger value and it then hit what ever step rate and the driver hit a point stopped and about .2 seconds later crackling and smoke....
06:25 PM _unreal_: very weird
06:26 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, I dont disagree
06:26 PM _unreal_: but lack of funds
06:30 PM roycroft: i have issued an executive order banning all magic smoke from escaping anywhere under my jurisdiction
06:30 PM gregcnc: have you measured any voltages?
06:30 PM roycroft: perhaps you should do likewise, _unreal_
06:30 PM roycroft: in your own domain
06:31 PM _unreal_: gregcnc, lol I only got home a hour ago
06:31 PM _unreal_: shower etc....
06:32 PM _unreal_: I had the motor controller that just popped moving just fine last night endlessly for about 2 hours
06:32 PM _unreal_: its the max step rate that seems to pop these?
06:32 PM gregcnc: so it wasn't runnign full speed last night?
06:32 PM _unreal_: as I said the win bcnc and the linux bcnc are coded differently
06:32 PM gregcnc: whatever, was the the speed different?
06:33 PM _unreal_: I just screwed this one up because I thought I had updated the settings but it apears that the windows version SOFT adjusts settings the linux version hard code adjusts the EEPROM
06:33 PM _unreal_: 1500 vs 15000
06:33 PM _unreal_: I had it at 15k before because I had the micro stepping
06:33 PM gregcnc: 1500 what
06:33 PM _unreal_: step rate
06:34 PM gregcnc: Hz
06:34 PM _unreal_: I think so ya
06:34 PM _unreal_: I had to use the arduino to prove the controllers
06:34 PM _unreal_: now that I know how to get them to work and I down :( know there limits
06:35 PM _unreal_: down? down = didnt
06:35 PM _unreal_: I dont know if the controller its self got hurt but it looks like it burnt the SMD resistors
06:36 PM _unreal_: 6x r470 1watt
06:36 PM _unreal_: per motor controller
06:36 PM gregcnc: they should handle 150kHz
06:36 PM _unreal_: right
06:36 PM _unreal_: but I have it set to 1/2 stepping
06:36 PM gregcnc: doens't matter
06:36 PM _unreal_: I was trying to get an idea on machine motion
06:36 PM gregcnc: bare motro or?
06:37 PM _unreal_: ?
06:37 PM gregcnc: load on motor?
06:37 PM _unreal_: machine its self loading
06:37 PM gregcnc: what is the load
06:38 PM _unreal_: currently just the X axis on the Y axis moving the Y
06:38 PM _unreal_: twin lead screws single belt drive
06:38 PM _unreal_: large belt
06:38 PM _unreal_: it has the most resistance
06:38 PM _unreal_: last night I had it moving VERY well. was averaging 18 seconds to traverse the entire bed
06:39 PM _unreal_: 30"
06:39 PM _unreal_: y movement
06:40 PM _unreal_: gregcnc, https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mshwTml_EGz4u3WCejxn4pXqeFHZ62d2/view?usp=sharing
06:40 PM gregcnc: google knows nothing about those drives. either they suck and nobody knows or you have a voltage problem.
06:41 PM _unreal_: they suck and no one knows
06:41 PM _unreal_: and the company that produced them is DOA
06:41 PM _unreal_: china company
06:41 PM _unreal_: I do not have a voltage issue
06:41 PM gregcnc: oh, they're gone already?
06:42 PM _unreal_: there is likely a design issue in the control board. so long as they run with in there unknown tolerance they are fine
06:42 PM _unreal_: from the looks of it
06:42 PM gregcnc: is the DM556 driver much different?
06:42 PM _unreal_: as I said i was running half stepping last night and I was getting 4khz just fine
06:43 PM _unreal_: .2amps more current
06:43 PM _unreal_: and 48v
06:43 PM _unreal_: mine claim 36v
06:43 PM _unreal_: but I believe they are "" rated "" 50
06:44 PM _unreal_: and those go upto 256micro step
06:44 PM _unreal_: I'm rather sure I only need 1/8th and thats it
06:44 PM _unreal_: anything over that is likely a waste of time
06:46 PM _unreal_: ooooh that one has 1/4 stepping
06:47 PM _unreal_: oh looks like I was looking at the wrong one
06:47 PM _unreal_: still ya better ratings then the one I have
06:48 PM _unreal_: mine likely does not have these Over-voltage, over-current, phase-error protections
06:50 PM Tom_L: it is definitely lacking something
06:51 PM _unreal_: https://www.amazon.com/Nema23-Stepper-FMD2740C-Breakut-Controller/dp/B07236CFKC/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=FMD2740C&qid=1603842597&sr=8-2
06:51 PM _unreal_: that is litteraly the kid I ordered 2 years ago
06:52 PM _unreal_: kid=kit
06:55 PM roycroft: it's too bad ichguckslive is no longer with us
06:55 PM roycroft: he was a master of making junk hardware work
06:56 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: #reprap :p
06:56 PM roycroft: i like the folks on reprap
06:56 PM roycroft: except for one thing:
06:57 PM roycroft: they think consumer-grade 3d printed parts can actually look good without serious post processing
06:59 PM roycroft: i think ichguckslive was trying to get me to buy those same drivers that _unreal_ has
06:59 PM CaptHindsight: jymmmm> Is there such a thing is overcooling the muffler too much? Yes, the metal might become too brittle and crack if too cold.
06:59 PM roycroft: they look really familiar
06:59 PM _unreal_: roycroft, from the test I did last night
06:59 PM _unreal_: running at 3 amps
06:59 PM CaptHindsight: jymmmm: I doubt you'll be able to reach that low a temp
06:59 PM _unreal_: they dont heat at all
07:00 PM _unreal_: the motor got worm, the controller wasnt worm period
07:00 PM roycroft: i went with gecko drivers
07:00 PM roycroft: they have more protection built-in than most
07:00 PM _unreal_: ya these I beleive have zero
07:00 PM roycroft: and i'm not 100% confident in my abilities with this stuff
07:00 PM roycroft: so more protection is better :)
07:00 PM roycroft: but the ones you have are $28 each
07:00 PM roycroft: the ones i have are $110 each
07:00 PM _unreal_: the only reason I poped the second was is do to win/linux differences in there build of BCNC for testing
07:01 PM roycroft: multiply the difference by 3 or 4, and it adds up to a significant cost difference
07:01 PM _unreal_: so the settings were not persistant
07:01 PM _unreal_: had I KNOWN ARG..
07:01 PM roycroft: if i'm honest, i did not cost out the entire cnc conversion when i started buying parts for it a few years ago
07:01 PM _unreal_: I'm tempted to order 6 resistors
07:02 PM roycroft: if i had, i might have either gotten lower end parts or just given up on the whole idea
07:02 PM _unreal_: and just try fixing one controller
07:02 PM roycroft: but fortunately i bought a bunch of decent quality stuff, and sunk a bunch of money in it
07:02 PM roycroft: then i got distracted for a few years
07:02 PM _unreal_: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/chip-resistor-surface-mount/52?WT.z_se_ps=1&s=N4IgTCBcDa4KwEYwAIBOAWA7ABhAXQF8g
07:02 PM roycroft: now i need to sink another big chunk of money into finishing it up
07:02 PM _unreal_: there is ONE that is rated almost 2x the temp
07:02 PM roycroft: but i can pretend to forget how much i spent years ago :)
07:03 PM _unreal_: I'm thinking I may just spend $6 get the resistors to fix both drivers and PRAY they fix easy
07:03 PM _unreal_: if so HAY GREAT
07:03 PM _unreal_: if not going to buy better drivers
07:03 PM _unreal_: when I have the money
07:03 PM _unreal_: currently I'm on track to fix my $$ issue finally
07:04 PM _unreal_: and I just got a $2 raise today
07:04 PM roycroft: you blew up one driver, right?
07:04 PM _unreal_: 2 at this point but the second one I yanked power right away
07:04 PM roycroft: oh
07:04 PM _unreal_: second was a fluke
07:04 PM roycroft: but you got a kit with four
07:04 PM _unreal_: ya
07:05 PM roycroft: you're making a router, i thought
07:05 PM _unreal_: I am
07:05 PM roycroft: so you only need 3
07:05 PM _unreal_: right
07:05 PM roycroft: you have two good ones right now
07:05 PM _unreal_: till I touch them :) YES
07:05 PM roycroft: so if the fix attempt does not work
07:05 PM roycroft: buy one higher quality driver to replace the one you blew up
07:05 PM roycroft: and try to make the two good ones work
07:05 PM roycroft: for now
07:06 PM roycroft: that way you don't have to replace them all at once
07:06 PM _unreal_: well the z is not even built yet so all I can do is x/y AND I still need to build an adapter for X to better place the setepper
07:06 PM _unreal_: because the servo I was using had a much longer shaft
07:07 PM _unreal_: I'm still going to order the resistors
07:07 PM _unreal_: ocant hurt
07:07 PM roycroft: sure
07:07 PM roycroft: try to fix what you have
07:07 PM _unreal_: its a fraction the cost and if this fixes one or both HAY great
07:08 PM roycroft: but if it doesn't work replacing one driver is a lot easire than replacing 3
07:08 PM roycroft: that's all i'm saying
07:08 PM _unreal_: I'm likely wrong but it would be nice if all that happend was the resistors over heated
07:08 PM roycroft: it might seem odd to mix and match drivers
07:08 PM _unreal_: because the setp rate was to high
07:08 PM roycroft: but you should be able to make it work
07:08 PM _unreal_: the only thing that matters is the step settings
07:09 PM _unreal_: I was going to use this really nice HEAVY duty thrust bearing setup
07:09 PM roycroft: before you order the resistors, check the ones that you thin you blew up
07:09 PM _unreal_: now I'm thinking I may just make an adapter and stack standard ball bearings
07:09 PM CaptHindsight: https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/27/amd-grabs-xilinx-for-35-billion-as-chip-industry-consolidation-continues/
07:09 PM _unreal_: oh they are burned I have one open
07:09 PM _unreal_: well the resistors are
07:09 PM roycroft: ok, so you know they're bad
07:09 PM _unreal_: I cant find ANYTHING that looks like a falure in the main driver chip
07:09 PM roycroft: then you're hoping that is *all* that is wrong
07:10 PM _unreal_: I believe they are sense resistors
07:11 PM _unreal_: so if they fail I dont kno whow that impacts the controller
07:11 PM _unreal_: ether it goes out of working range and fails? or it just looses it control signal and goes FLAT
07:12 PM _unreal_: regardless the motors stopped singing
07:12 PM _unreal_: you know the step rate to high for the motor
07:12 PM _unreal_: sound
07:12 PM _unreal_: they just went silent
07:12 PM _unreal_: What I would like to find
07:13 PM _unreal_: is a controller that is just like these one's form factor wise but has two controllers in it
07:13 PM _unreal_: that would be perfect for me. giving me 5 controllers in total.
07:13 PM _unreal_: so I could do my xyz AB
07:13 PM _unreal_: I want a compound rotory table
07:14 PM roycroft: i'm only starting with 3 axes
07:14 PM _unreal_: same
07:14 PM roycroft: but i'm desigining the controller to handle 4
07:14 PM _unreal_: that would be an upgrade
07:14 PM _unreal_: but I want the controller box to have everythiung in it already so all I have to do is plug in
07:14 PM roycroft: i'm not sure i'd ever need 5 axes
07:15 PM roycroft: it would not cost much more to design for 5
07:15 PM _unreal_: 4 gives you rotory
07:15 PM _unreal_: or tilt
07:15 PM roycroft: just an extra space for a driver, and an extra jack on the back panel
07:15 PM roycroft: i'm not sure about the need for limit or home switches for a or b axes
07:16 PM roycroft: i've actually never thought about that
07:16 PM gregcnc: you want to home if you ever need to shut down and repeat position to fixtures
07:16 PM _unreal_: A/B you just want a home
07:16 PM roycroft: well limit is no big deal regardless
07:17 PM gregcnc: limits aren't needed for steppers
07:17 PM roycroft: my limit switches will all be nc, and all in a serial chain
07:17 PM roycroft: it's trivial to add more to the chain
07:17 PM roycroft: but my home switches need to be discrete, of course
07:18 PM gregcnc: they don't actually
07:18 PM roycroft: so i guess i should probably add four more pins to whatever kind of connector i decide to use for home switches
07:18 PM roycroft: no?
07:18 PM gregcnc: you can home one axis a a time
07:18 PM roycroft: oh, i suppose if i only home one axis at a time it doesn't matter
07:18 PM gregcnc: my machine is setup like this
07:18 PM roycroft: i haven't gotten to that part yet
07:19 PM _unreal_: mine is setup with 8 conductors per motor. 4 for motor 4 for signal
07:19 PM roycroft: i'm thinking a d-sub shell would be fine for limit/home swithes, assuming that they're rated for 24vdc
07:19 PM gregcnc: why bother with connectors?
07:19 PM _unreal_: so +v, sig+ sig-, extra.
07:20 PM roycroft: because the controller cart will not be attached to the machine
07:20 PM roycroft: and because there's a chance i may want to use the controller with more than one machine
07:20 PM _unreal_: Z extra is probe, x extra is ? wtf is it arg got to check my notes, and Y is un used
07:20 PM roycroft: not simultaneously
07:21 PM roycroft: it's cleaner and more flexible if i can unplug everything that goes to the machine from the controller cart
07:21 PM roycroft: my intent would be to do that rarely
07:22 PM roycroft: but it's better to be able to do it than to have to mess with a bunch of hard-wired connections if i ever need to do maintenance/upgrades
07:22 PM _unreal_: ESTOP X extra wire is estop
07:23 PM _unreal_: I cant believe I forgot it was ESTOP
07:32 PM _unreal_: there just cleaned the cnc vacuum fianlly
07:32 PM _unreal_: wasnt sucking well lot of aluminum shaving
07:32 PM _unreal_: s
07:33 PM _unreal_: and wood shavings
10:21 PM CaptHindsight: https://deepnest.io/
10:21 PM CaptHindsight: Open source nesting software