#linuxcnc Logs
Oct 23 2020
#linuxcnc Calendar
01:43 AM Loetmichel: mornin'
01:58 AM Loetmichel: XXCoder: not as bad as methanol IIRC, but still mildly toxic
01:58 AM XXCoder: certainly not safe yeah
02:09 AM Deejay: moin
02:16 AM Loetmichel: XXCoder: its just that my desk is central to the production floor, so anybody that walks by on the way to the storage will just use MY bottle instead of getting a new one from storage. Mildly infuriating.
02:17 AM XXCoder: hmmmm locker?
02:22 AM CaptHindsight: Loetmichel: put tracer dye on the outside of the bottle
04:57 AM JT-Cave: morning
04:58 AM XXCoder: yo
05:20 AM Tom_L: morning
05:20 AM Tom_L: 37F Hi 48
05:24 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:16 AM JT-Cave: https://gnipsel.com/images/customers/Foxy/20201022_132909.mp4
06:30 AM JT-Cave: 68°F high 75°F at noon then falling to 42°F tonight
06:39 AM XXCoder: nice
06:39 AM XXCoder: here never gets above 50f now
06:39 AM XXCoder: erm 60f i mean
06:46 AM Tom_L: forbidden on the link
06:47 AM JT-Cave: try again stupid permissions
06:47 AM Tom_L: nope
06:47 AM Tom_L: refresh helped
06:48 AM XXCoder: jt thats cool video
06:48 AM Tom_L: yeah that's kinda neat
06:49 AM JT-Cave: yea I'm stoked that it's done except for a few minor items
06:49 AM Tom_L: i bet he's happy
06:49 AM JT-Cave: already have another one to do
06:49 AM XXCoder: does it keep itself clean also?
06:49 AM Tom_L: XXCoder, do you?
06:49 AM JT-Cave: they have to clean it often
06:49 AM XXCoder: yeah lol
06:50 AM XXCoder: jt interesting. wondered if could add some clean system to make it last bit longer but good diea make em do daily maintanbce also
06:53 AM JT-Cave: next one will be completely different
06:56 AM XXCoder: different design of machine to work with eh
06:57 AM JT-Cave: same base machine just has an upper rotating head so I have to "insert" the blank between the table and the upper head
07:07 AM XXCoder: cool cant wait to see your design work on that
07:09 AM beachbumpete1: Morning
07:09 AM XXCoder: hey the bum
07:16 AM jymmmm: Morning
07:29 AM jymmmm: JT What's the big long round thing on the right side with the cover over it?
07:30 AM jymmmm: Only a short one day blackout this time
07:33 AM jymmmm: Strangest thing, It's been fine all this time up to about 3 months ago, but now the generator can't power the freezer, even with no other load on it at all, but my little honda eu2000i and power it no problem. And max draw (surge) is only 19A, well under the continuous load rating.
07:53 AM JT-Cave: the cutter head
07:53 AM jymmmm: JT Oh, I thought that was some kind of big brush
07:57 AM JT-Cave: https://gnipsel.com/images/customers/Foxy/spoke-lathe-01.jpg
07:57 AM JT-Cave: https://gnipsel.com/images/customers/Foxy/spoke-lathe-02.jpg
07:58 AM jymmmm: oh wow, not a brush indeed =)
07:59 AM jymmmm: JT nice job!
08:29 AM Centurion-Dan2 is now known as Centurion_Dan
08:53 AM jymmmm: Looking on amazon for 35AH AGM batteries, can't believe the amount of bad reviews that are coming up across ALL the different brands.
08:55 AM sensille: i've seen a video on parting on a mini lathe recommending to put the tool upside down an the machine in reverse. does that make sense?
08:59 AM jymmmm: sensille: In the video, did it work?
09:00 AM jymmmm: Did they saw WHY?
09:00 AM sensille: perfectly
09:00 AM jymmmm: say*
09:00 AM sensille: because it pushes the tool away from the workpiece when it gets caught, instead of pulling it in
09:01 AM jymmmm: ah
09:01 AM sensille: https://youtu.be/-RZRq0olsxM
09:04 AM roycroft: i've seen that recommendation, but i don't think i can mount a parting tool upside down in my parting tool holder
09:04 AM roycroft: my strategy is to line up the parting tool so it doesn't get caught in the part
09:05 AM unterhaus_: I'm not sure I believe the thing about getting caught. Unless it's just the stiffness of the machine is less if something gets pushed up
09:05 AM unterhaus_: which is something
09:05 AM roycroft: my spindle is also threaded, and there is no lock on the chuck
09:06 AM roycroft: so running the spindle backwards could pose other problems
09:08 AM sensille: unterhaus_: the joints are different. push the tool up, it moves away. push it down, it moves towards the workpiece
09:09 AM jymmmm: ah, spinning backwards too
09:09 AM roycroft: if it's centered it should not be any different
09:10 AM jymmmm: sensille: and no chatter
09:10 AM roycroft: it's not going to get pulled towards the workplace
09:10 AM sensille: if you press down on it?
09:10 AM roycroft: it will get pulled towards the center of the axis
09:11 AM roycroft: but that would be away from the part
09:11 AM roycroft: unless you set the tool higher than the middle of the part
09:11 AM sensille: that depends on the actual geometry i guess
09:12 AM jymmmm: The sim is just an over exaggeration, but I think he means to say less chance of the tool biting into the workpiece
09:13 AM roycroft: what is important is to set the parting tool exactly perpendicular to the axis
09:14 AM roycroft: you can grab a 123 block, hold it against the chuck, and index the tool off the 123 block
09:14 AM roycroft: or any of a number of other things
09:14 AM roycroft: but do that
09:14 AM roycroft: set your feed and speed properly
09:14 AM roycroft: and you should have no problem
09:15 AM roycroft: if you're parting off a long part, support it with a center in the tailstock until the very end, before it separates, then back the center off before it actually separates
09:16 AM roycroft: if you do those things, and pay attention, you should not have to resort to gimmicks like doing it upside down and backwards
09:18 AM sensille: even on a mini lathe? so far i haven't succeeded ...
09:18 AM gregcnc: been parting inverted in my 10" clausing for years now. There is a difference and it's machine stiffness
09:18 AM gregcnc: parting tools don't scale with machine size....
09:19 AM roycroft: i had a mini-lathe
09:19 AM gregcnc: usually
09:19 AM roycroft: i ran the parting tool faster on that than on my current lathe (12x36)
09:19 AM gregcnc: insert tool?
09:19 AM roycroft: but i didn't have a lot of problems with it
09:19 AM roycroft: no
09:20 AM roycroft: just a standard hss parting tool
09:20 AM gregcnc: you or sensille?
09:20 AM roycroft: i also lube pretty much constantly when parting
09:20 AM gregcnc: that's a given
09:20 AM roycroft: you'd be surprised at how many folks don't do it
09:20 AM jymmmm: haha
09:20 AM gregcnc: you'd be surprised how many folks don't know anything at all
09:21 AM jymmmm: Most folks lube when mating, not parting :D
09:21 AM roycroft: correct
09:21 AM roycroft: there are no givens :)
09:21 AM gregcnc: aluminum will make life difficult parting dry, other stuff less so
09:22 AM roycroft: i've never tried the upside down/backwards thing for parting
09:23 AM roycroft: so i can't compare it to the conventional way
09:23 AM roycroft: i just know that parting is no more problematic for me than any other lathe operation
09:23 AM gregcnc: sensille what kind of tool are you parting with?
09:24 AM roycroft: i don't use the power feed when parting
09:24 AM roycroft: i'd have concerns about doing that
09:24 AM gregcnc: how would you part in a CNC then?
09:24 AM roycroft: i don't have a cnc lathe
09:25 AM gregcnc: assume you did
09:25 AM roycroft: i'll cross that bridge if i ever reach it
09:25 AM roycroft: if i did i'd probably program it to be fairly conservative until i have some experience doing it
09:26 AM gregcnc: that's a good way to fail. use the recommended specs for the insert and material
09:26 AM roycroft: which is how i anticipate i'll do everything cnc for a while
09:27 AM roycroft: feeding/spinning way too slow is not being conservative
09:27 AM roycroft: feeding/spinning at the low end of the recommended range is
09:28 AM gregcnc: in the range, it really doesn't matter much
09:28 AM roycroft: i really don't anticipate a cnc conversion to my lathe in the near term
09:28 AM roycroft: i'm just getting started on converting my mill
09:28 AM roycroft: after 10 years of planning on doing so :)
09:29 AM gregcnc: and this is why I was asking about tooling
09:29 AM roycroft: i anticipate a lot of sample parts and experiments gone somewhat awry while getting familiar/comfortable with cnc on the mill
09:29 AM gregcnc: insert tools for parting can be problematic for something like a minilathe
09:29 AM gregcnc: why
09:29 AM sensille: gregcnc: i first tried with a (cheap) holder with carbide insert, it broke. now i'm trying with this: https://www.paulimot.de/drehen/abstechstaehle/mit-hss-messer/20/mini-abstechstahlhalter-10-x-10-x-80-mm
09:30 AM roycroft: i mostly used hss tooling with my mini-lathe
09:30 AM gregcnc: 1.45mm wide?
09:30 AM roycroft: because it's something new, gregcnc
09:31 AM roycroft: maybe this is just me, but my experience through my life is that when i do something new i'm usually not expert on it immediately
09:31 AM gregcnc: parting reliably is all about rigidity. least extension of the blade and holder in this case. cross slide not overhanging the base.
09:32 AM roycroft: i totally agree there, and i've seen folks have a lot of trouble overextending the parting tool
09:33 AM gregcnc: a photo of a parting setup in the lathe would say a lot
09:33 AM gregcnc: what specific problems do you have?
09:34 AM gregcnc: what size stock are you parting with the tiny tool?
09:34 AM sensille: about 15mm
09:35 AM gregcnc: 15mm butter or hardened drill rod?
09:36 AM sensille: in between :) as first "stock" i bought some threaded rods from the hardware store. i'd say it is on the soft side
09:36 AM sensille: well, i'll try again and take some pictures
09:36 AM gregcnc: and what happens?
09:37 AM roycroft: so pot metal :)
09:37 AM gregcnc: yeah could be nasty
09:39 AM sensille: it works for a few mm, the the tool gets pushed down
09:40 AM sensille: the clamp on top of the tool gets bent
09:40 AM roycroft: is the tool perfectly centered on the axis?
09:41 AM roycroft: also, are you trying to part through the threads?
09:41 AM sensille: from what i can tell it is perfectly centered with the tailstock. but of course i can't really know
09:41 AM sensille: no, i cut off the threads first, no problem at all
09:41 AM roycroft: if so, i'd recommend turning the part round at first, while you're learning how to use the tool
09:41 AM roycroft: ok
09:42 AM roycroft: if your tool is too low it's going to get grabbed and pushed down
09:42 AM roycroft: if it's too high it's not going to cut
09:42 AM gregcnc: chuck a piece of aluminum, and lightly face it with the tool to check height
09:43 AM roycroft: is your tailstock center inline with the axis?
09:44 AM roycroft: if you're setting your tool height against a tailstock center you need to make sure the tailstock center is at the correct height
09:46 AM sensille: i was just assuming it is. i will try to check that first
09:47 AM roycroft: chuck up a pice of round stock and turn a center on it
09:47 AM roycroft: get a 6"/150mm rule, push the tailstock up towards the spindle, and very gently hold the rule vertically in between the centers
09:48 AM roycroft: if it stays vertical then you're aligned vertically
09:48 AM unterhaus_: I guess it does push it back if it's upside-down. Due to the relative locations of the structure of the machine
09:48 AM roycroft: if the bottom wants to angle in towards the headstock then the tailstock is too low
09:48 AM unterhaus_: my lathe is plenty stiff, but sometimes I have trouble with parting. Next time I part urethane I'm going to do it upside down
09:49 AM roycroft: you can do the same check horizontally, of course
09:49 AM gregcnc: urethane is probably material defection? not machine
09:50 AM unterhaus_: urethane cuts great on the lathe until it doesn't
09:50 AM gregcnc: upside down can also help chips fall out, but much harder to see what's going on with chips
09:51 AM gregcnc: I used some very soft urethane a while back. didn't want to cut at all
09:51 AM unterhaus_: only time I did it was with a vee pulley
09:51 AM unterhaus_: needed to be thinner
09:52 AM unterhaus_: I got it, but I broke my parting blade
09:52 AM unterhaus_: not that I haven't done that before
09:54 AM unterhaus_: I wonder if aluminum inserts would cut urethane better
09:54 AM gregcnc: generally, yes
09:56 AM unterhaus_: I never think to use them, even on aluminum. But mostly I cut stainless
10:00 AM unterhaus_: one of my neighbors just had a pretty decent sized shed delivered
10:01 AM roycroft: i'm no expert machinist, and don't play on on the internet even, but in my limited experience setting the tool height and extension properly, and making sure the tool is perfectly perpendicular to the axis, are the two most important keys to successful parting
10:01 AM gregcnc: anyone ever seen a Levin releasing tap holder, the insides that is?
10:02 AM gregcnc: yeah pretty much
10:05 AM sensille: roycroft: visually the tailstock height looks ok, will proceed as you suggested
10:07 AM roycroft: the ruler check is not perfect, but it should get you pretty close
10:07 AM roycroft: the ruler deflection will exaggerate any misalignment
10:07 AM unterhaus_: a big stiff lathe can power through a catch while parting, a wimpy little lathe will flex and stop the spindle
10:08 AM unterhaus_: I used to use a wimpy 9" southbend that couldn't part at all
10:08 AM roycroft: sensille: and one piece of advise regarding your mini-lathe (and any other machine): do not assume anything, ever
10:08 AM roycroft: always verify
10:08 AM unterhaus_: but I'm sure I would be better at parting if I read the directions
10:09 AM roycroft: make sure your parting tool is sharp too
10:09 AM unterhaus_: I'm pretty happy with the cheap insert parting tools, but maybe could use a little more depth
10:10 AM unterhaus_: that's what always got me in trouble with the carbide tipped parting blades
10:10 AM roycroft: if it's rounded over a bit, or especially if there's a burr on the top edge, if you have it set just a tiny bit below th cener it's going to be really grabby
10:11 AM roycroft: i've never used a carbide or other insert parting tool
10:11 AM roycroft: like i said, i'm not an expert machinist
10:11 AM roycroft: but i have figured out a few things that seem to work for me
10:15 AM unterhaus_: I have found that grinding things is not something I have enough patience for
10:15 AM unterhaus_: much rather have inserts and carbide
10:15 AM unterhaus_: of course, then you have to be able to read a catalog
10:16 AM unterhaus_: which are mostly oriented towards engineers
10:16 AM gregcnc: the catalogs?
10:16 AM unterhaus_: yes
10:17 AM gregcnc: what makes them hard to tunderstand?
10:17 AM unterhaus_: I can see if people didn't have the patience for it
10:17 AM roycroft: when i took machining classes we spent a lot of time up gront learning how to grind tooling
10:17 AM gregcnc: there is a lot of info, but to me seems straight forward
10:18 AM unterhaus_: last time I was insesrt shopping I was stumped to tell the difference between a number of the inserts
10:18 AM roycroft: i'm grateful for that training, because i can quickly grind/touch up a tool now
10:18 AM unterhaus_: it actually seems easier to start with what you can get cheap on ebay
10:18 AM roycroft: had i not received that training i'd probably find it somewhat frustrating
10:19 AM gregcnc: some catalogs don't make differences between grade very clear
10:19 AM unterhaus_: my only machinist training was a lab class where they barely explained anything
10:20 AM roycroft: i think the insert manufacturers assume most of their sales will be to commercial shops, and rely on outside sales reps to work with the customers in initially selecting their products
10:20 AM unterhaus_: I imagine that's true about sales reps. I know our machinist relied on the
10:20 AM gregcnc: the information is usually there is you dig deep enough
10:21 AM roycroft: i was really impressed with the machining program that i took
10:21 AM roycroft: i unfortunately did not complete the courses, but i got a good introduction to machining
10:21 AM unterhaus_: I have visited some machining programs, was a bit jealous
10:21 AM roycroft: pretty much 100% of the students who enrolled wanted to be in the cnc program
10:22 AM roycroft: but the school requires 2 years of manual machining before allowing one into the cnc classes
10:22 AM unterhaus_: I can't imagine they aren't all in the cnc program nowadays
10:23 AM roycroft: and the manual curriculum is really old school at the start
10:23 AM unterhaus_: I thought about going to cnc school, but I knew someone that was an apprentice machinist and he had to do all the work at his shop because nobody knew how to run the cnc but him
10:24 AM unterhaus_: so he was always working overtime for very little money
10:25 AM gregcnc: https://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-us/downloads/pages/default.aspx
10:26 AM gregcnc: check the technical box, download the training handbook. 155MB
10:28 AM unterhaus_: my dado blade is going to be here today, should prpbably watch some utubes about that
10:31 AM unterhaus_: hopefully cutting 1/4" dados won't be too tough
10:55 AM sensille: ha, i actually made a cone, i'm impressed :D
10:58 AM unterhaus_: nice, with the compound?
10:59 AM unterhaus_: I have a taper attachment, but the way my cross slide was rigged up, I'm not sure it still works
10:59 AM unterhaus_: not sure you would call anything made with the compound a cone though
11:00 AM unterhaus_: sorry, made with the taper attachment
11:00 AM unterhaus_: I have been making cones with a 45 degree carbide insert.
11:03 AM sensille: roycroft: like that? https://i.imgur.com/RRmWaHv.jpg https://i.imgur.com/jWZTZ8T.jpg
11:08 AM roycroft: yes, sensille
11:08 AM roycroft: and it looks like you're lined up pretty well
11:09 AM roycroft: check it horizontally as well
11:09 AM roycroft: that won't affect setting your tool height, but it will affect other things
11:10 AM roycroft: turning a part between centers and measuring the diameter at each end is a more accurate way to set the tailstock than the ruler check, but the ruler check will get you close
11:14 AM sensille: the second pic was horizontal alignment, that is fixed now
11:34 AM sensille: visually i'd say the parting tool was a bit on the high side. is there a trick to set the height other than eyeballing it?
11:35 AM roycroft: the way you're setting it against the tailstock center is fine
11:35 AM roycroft: use a loupe so you can see really well
11:37 AM sensille: ok
11:38 AM roycroft: you want to set it dead on the center or the tiniest bit above center
11:38 AM roycroft: if you set it below the center it will tend to dig in
11:38 AM roycroft: and by "just above" i mean a handful of thousandths at most
11:38 AM roycroft: not 0.030" above
11:39 AM roycroft: you should be able to eyeball 5 thousandths or less
11:39 AM roycroft: and if you're not sure, raise it a tiny bit
11:40 AM FinboySlick: sensille: For tool height, you can also use something like the ruler trick, squeezing the ruler between the edge of the tool and the side of a round part.
12:01 PM sensille: finally, https://i.imgur.com/LA8PJLG.jpg
12:01 PM sensille: very far from beautiful. but it's parted
12:02 PM sensille: so, tools was to high, and probably also a bit dull. in the middle of the operation i turned over to the other side of it
12:02 PM sensille: these nasty sounds ...
12:26 PM Tom_L: above center
12:27 PM Tom_L: on the automatics we had a tool setter you just hold on the way with the proper height
12:27 PM Tom_L: used alot of form tools on those
12:36 PM sensille: sometimes it just pushed the tool in
12:37 PM gregcnc: above center and dull that is certainly possible
12:38 PM sensille: if above only very slightly. but i guess it needs practice to get it right
12:39 PM roycroft: if it's dull it will just rub against the part
12:40 PM roycroft: then you'll push it harder to try to cut, and it will grab
12:40 PM Tom_L: figure out your center height and make a tool setter
12:40 PM roycroft: if it's a lot higher than center it will just rub no matter how sharp it is
12:40 PM roycroft: and you'll have the same problem
12:40 PM Tom_L: makes setting tools a hellovalot easier
12:41 PM roycroft: it would be helpful if you took a picture of the tool in position and posted it
12:41 PM gregcnc: I always set them on the face of stock
12:42 PM Tom_L: yeah even that beats guessing
12:44 PM gregcnc: I saw some adjustable height holders on Ebay for the CNC lathe. should have bought them. Sure would have beat shims
12:46 PM Tom_L: https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/97/3d/66/973d661dd703023a7d151861610f0fab.jpg
12:46 PM Tom_L: that one you've got both over and under
01:02 PM sensille: hard to get a meaningful picture. after the cut it was even clearly under: https://i.imgur.com/fWL9wdc.jpg
01:02 PM sensille: i'll keep practicing
01:05 PM roycroft: it
01:05 PM roycroft: is friday!
01:05 PM gregcnc: lightly face a piece of stock in the chuck and you'll be able to see how close it is to center
01:05 PM roycroft: that just registered with me
01:06 PM roycroft: sensille: the angle may be deceiving me, but from that picture the tool looks like it's 0.015" or more under the center
01:07 PM roycroft: if that's true it's all but guaranteed to grab and get pushed down
02:12 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
02:13 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
02:31 PM unterhaus_: dangers of utube: I just watched a tutorial about parting tools where they guy says you don't have to level your lathe
02:32 PM roycroft: you don't *have* to level your lathe
02:33 PM jymmmm: unterhaus_: Especially when you are operating your lathe from a hot air balloon!!!
02:33 PM roycroft: but you won't be making decent parts if you don't level it
02:33 PM * Tom_L uses a parting tool on jymmmm
02:33 PM roycroft: and actually, the lathe doesn't even need to be level to make decent parts
02:33 PM roycroft: it just needs to be very very straight
02:34 PM roycroft: and the easiest way to make sure it's straight is to level it
02:35 PM * jymmmm wraps Tom_L in duct tape and slaps on a shipping label to antartica... COD
02:35 PM gregcnc: damn.... have never levelled my lathes
02:35 PM skunkworks: yes.. The lath can't have a twist in the med
02:35 PM skunkworks: bed
02:36 PM skunkworks: well - it can - you just cut tapers..
02:36 PM gregcnc: I make the twist match the wear when needed
02:38 PM gregcnc: I saw your cams yesterday. did you see the guy doing cams with linux a couple months ago?
02:38 PM gregcnc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjBXa6RHSPQ
02:42 PM Tom_L: aww hell i can do that manually!
02:43 PM gregcnc: https://www.instagram.com/p/CGVmOl6J680/
02:44 PM unterhaus_: you don't have to level your lathe, but it just shows the quality of the advice
02:45 PM gregcnc: not really. if a person understands why you don't have to level it, well....
02:46 PM gregcnc: is the lathe anchored? how often do you check it? etc. etc.
03:02 PM Deejay: gn8
03:14 PM skunkworks: gregcnc: yes
03:17 PM Papagno: HI at all. the last tecnology want machine configuration lathe and mill in the same machine. it can impose in one pin the change configuration the linux cnc LATHE =1 or Lathe =0 .now we can change it only in ini file and for change configuration , is necessary restart linuxcnc .
03:19 PM Tom_L: i would think so yes
03:20 PM Tom_L: you might be better off having 2 config files
03:20 PM Tom_L: and 2 icons on the desktop
03:21 PM Papagno: yes this is good, but i thing at cjange on fly, when linuxcnc is running and interpreter is stop
03:25 PM Tom_L: nope
03:26 PM Tom_L: i'm pretty sure it reads the config file once on startup
03:35 PM roycroft: i'm pretty sure that folks shut down linuxcnc and restart it with a different configuration to do that
03:35 PM roycroft: and it shouldn't be that big a deal to shut down linuxcnc and restart it - it only takes a few seconds
03:35 PM roycroft: what tom_l said about having two icons is a good idea, and is pretty common
03:37 PM Rab: Can't set up one frankenstein configuration with two spindles (mill and lathe) and a bunch of linear axes?
03:37 PM roycroft: this is something i'm going to want to do, but i need to get my first linuxcnc-driven cnc machine working before i work on the second one :)
03:37 PM roycroft: rab
03:37 PM roycroft: it's friday
03:37 PM roycroft: please to not make people's brains hurt, thank you very much
03:37 PM Rab: That means it's time for serious business! Sleep is for the week!
03:42 PM roycroft: what i haven't sorted out yet is whether i'll want/need a second controller for a second cnc machine
03:42 PM roycroft: it's possible i could just use the one controller, and swap motor/sensor cables from the first machine to the second whnever i switch over
03:43 PM roycroft: i might even be able to do that with some multi-position actuators
03:43 PM roycroft: and not have to physically unplug anything
03:44 PM roycroft: that would require using the same type motors on each machine
03:45 PM roycroft: so i'm not going to be able to control a mini-lathe and a 3 ton cincinnatti vertical mill that way
03:47 PM roycroft: there is some good news in the world this day
03:47 PM roycroft: one of the murder hornet nests in northwest washington has been located
03:48 PM roycroft: it's taken officials a long time to locate it
03:49 PM roycroft: they had captured multiple murder hornets, and glued tiny radio transmitters to their heads, but the hornets kept finding ways to shed the radios before they got back to the next
04:17 PM SpeedEvil is now known as Guest78110
05:41 PM CaptHindsight: Murder Hornets, grand larceny bees, sexual assault squirrels, things sure have changed
06:00 PM JT-Shop: Tree Rats
06:01 PM * JT-Shop listens to Eric Johnson before retiring to the house
06:02 PM JavaBean: Tube Rats, Murder Bunny.... lots of things
06:02 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, did your automation to the spoke machine increase it's production?
06:03 PM Tom_L: may be hard to tell yet
06:03 PM JT-Shop: yes it will double their production, still have a few minor things to sort out
06:03 PM JT-Shop: when I do the next one the guy running it can run 3 machines at a time
06:03 PM Tom_L: what were they currently doing?
06:03 PM Tom_L: one per machine?
06:04 PM JT-Shop: yea he would move from machine to machine
06:04 PM JT-Shop: hand loading then pushing on a lever while it cut the handle
06:04 PM Tom_L: so he had to feed it too?
06:05 PM JT-Shop: yea he put the blank between the dogs and moved a big lever to lock it in then cut it
06:05 PM JT-Shop: I need to take a before video of Steve making handles
06:05 PM Tom_L: it would be an interesting comparison
06:06 PM JT-Shop: he has a pallet of blanks next to the spoke lathe and grabs one at a time
06:06 PM JT-Shop: time to finish the chicken soup... none of my chickens are in there
06:15 PM unterhaus_: anyone have a schematic of a mill?
06:18 PM * JT-Cave is watching chicken TV... hens keep going in and out of the roost area
06:19 PM JT-Cave: two pullets left in the run... I'll be closing that door soon
06:21 PM Tom_L: unterhaus_, what sort of schematic?
06:22 PM unterhaus_: estop and limit switch wiring
06:23 PM Tom_L: no
06:23 PM Tom_L: my limits go to the fpga pins
06:23 PM unterhaus_: I'll have to see if I have enough pins
06:24 PM unterhaus_: is there a fault sepearte from estop?
06:24 PM Tom_L: what do you mean?
06:24 PM unterhaus_: or does limit switch throw the estop
06:25 PM Tom_L: i think it may
06:25 PM roycroft: limit switches should trigger an e-stop event
06:25 PM Tom_L: i'd have to look at the signals
06:25 PM Tom_L: for the exact lcnc signal
06:25 PM roycroft: i was asking about this very thing yesterday, and nobody answered
06:26 PM unterhaus_: I thought that electrical signals that trigger an estop should probably throw the drive enables false
06:26 PM unterhaus_: mechanically
06:26 PM unterhaus_: through a relay, I mean
06:26 PM Tom_L: iocontrol.0.emc-enable-in
06:27 PM Tom_L: for the software side
06:27 PM roycroft: pushing the estop button should mechanically remove power from the drives and spindle immediately
06:28 PM roycroft: and linuxcnc should monitor the circuit so that it knows about the event
06:28 PM Tom_L: ^^ that's the monitor signal
06:28 PM roycroft: the question i had is:
06:29 PM roycroft: should tripping a limit switch trigger an e-stop or should it just tell linuxcnc that it should probably stop now
06:29 PM roycroft: i think the former
06:29 PM Tom_L: that's your call
06:29 PM Tom_L: but i'd do that in software
06:29 PM unterhaus_: no cnc that I have used removes power
06:29 PM Tom_L: but i don't have a 4 ton mill either
06:29 PM roycroft: if you want to use limit switches as home switches as well it would have to be done in software
06:30 PM unterhaus_: I only have a 2 1/2 ton mill
06:30 PM Tom_L: you should be fine then
06:30 PM Tom_L: :)
06:30 PM unterhaus_: lol
06:30 PM roycroft: and i have a small mill-drill that weighs less than my new workbench :)
06:30 PM unterhaus_: tbf, your new workbench weighs quite a bit
06:31 PM roycroft: but i still think that if i actuate a limit switch i need to stop
06:31 PM roycroft: because if the machine is operating properly, limit switche should never be triggered
06:31 PM unterhaus_: you have to stop motion or you will break something
06:31 PM roycroft: yes
06:31 PM unterhaus_: people run into limit switches sometimes
06:31 PM roycroft: and that's why i am thinking it should trigger an e-stop
06:32 PM roycroft: they shouldn't, intentionally
06:32 PM unterhaus_: always want to squeeze just one more part on the table
06:32 PM unterhaus_: emc has the capacity to move the table off of a limit switch
06:32 PM roycroft: and can't i program soft limits into linuxcnc and tell it never to exceed them?
06:33 PM unterhaus_: I think you can
06:33 PM roycroft: so that even if i write g-code that says to move too far, linuxcnc will stop at the soft limit anyway
06:33 PM Tom_L: roycroft, yes i use soft limits too
06:33 PM unterhaus_: if only skunkworks had finished the second video in his estop series
06:33 PM roycroft: so i set soft limits a few thousandths before the hard limits
06:33 PM roycroft: in which case, if i ever hit a hard limit, something has gone terribly wrong
06:34 PM roycroft: and linuxcnc cannot be trusted to do the right thing, because it's already failed me
06:34 PM unterhaus_: linuxcnc shouldn't run a part that exceeds machine limits if set up properly
06:34 PM roycroft: so an e-stop seems to be the correct thing to do if i hit a hard limit
06:34 PM unterhaus_: I agree
06:35 PM roycroft: now if you want to auto-home, this means adding three more limit switches
06:35 PM roycroft: that's the drawback
06:35 PM Tom_L: roycroft, one of the few times i can see hitting a hard limit may be a switch failure
06:35 PM unterhaus_: i was adding home switches
06:35 PM Tom_L: i've used lcnc enough to trust it's logic flow
06:36 PM roycroft: sure
06:36 PM unterhaus_: my mill has a fairly clever way of only using one limit switch per axis
06:36 PM roycroft: but my point is, if you have set soft limits, triggering a hard limit should never, ever happen if linuxcnc is behaving correctly
06:37 PM Tom_L: yup
06:37 PM Tom_L: if you load a program outside it's limits it won't run
06:37 PM roycroft: so if you *do* trigger a hard limit, then something has gone wrong with linuxcnc
06:38 PM roycroft: at which point trusting the thing that failed you is not wise
06:38 PM Tom_L: piece of cutoff got stuck between the switch and the trip
06:38 PM Tom_L: as an example
06:38 PM unterhaus_: don't think lcnc tells you that your part is right up against the limit
06:38 PM roycroft: right
06:38 PM Tom_L: if you designed it right though that would never happen
06:38 PM unterhaus_: so we have a problem then
06:39 PM roycroft: but when i talk about a soft limit, i'm not talking about waiting until you actuate a limit switch
06:39 PM Tom_L: unterhaus_, if the gcode goes outside the cube defined in the ini it won' run
06:39 PM roycroft: i'm talking about telling linuxcnc "after you home the x acis, never go more than 27.345" away from home"
06:39 PM roycroft: axis
06:39 PM Tom_L: yes i do that currently
06:39 PM JT-Cave: you can tell linuxcnc to run anyway if your program is out of bounds and I have to do that every time I cut on the plasma because I use G92 to set XY0
06:40 PM roycroft: so if you've homed the machine correctly
06:40 PM Tom_L: JT-Cave, but it's an intentional move on your part
06:40 PM roycroft: and you get to x=27.345", linuxcnc will stop if it's behaving correctly
06:40 PM JT-Cave: if you use G92 it tosses all that logic out the window
06:40 PM roycroft: and if your limit switch is at 27.355", you should never reach it
06:40 PM roycroft: even if the switch is jammed/broken/whatever
06:40 PM JT-Cave: yea I jog to the start and the first thing the program does is G92 X0 Y0
06:40 PM roycroft: you should never reach it
06:41 PM roycroft: and if you do reach it
06:41 PM roycroft: that's because linuxcnc is broken/misconfigured
06:41 PM Tom_L: roycroft, MIN_LIMIT = -17.750
06:41 PM Tom_L: MAX_LIMIT = 0.050
06:41 PM Tom_L: in the ini per axis
06:41 PM roycroft: and if the switch is jammed/broken and you reach it
06:41 PM roycroft: that's why you have the big red mushroom button
06:42 PM roycroft: ok
06:42 PM roycroft: so i think my logic is valid
06:42 PM roycroft: and that logic tells me that limit switches should trigger an estop that kills power to the motors outwith linuxcnc
06:42 PM unterhaus_: roycroft, I thought you wanted the limit switches to do the same as the mushroom button
06:42 PM Tom_L: so in that example after i home, i back off .050" to the soft limit
06:42 PM roycroft: yes
06:43 PM Tom_L: so in effect the switches never get tripped
06:43 PM roycroft: yes
06:43 PM roycroft: in the best of all possible worlds
06:43 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/NEW_MILL_SHOP_2.7/
06:44 PM Tom_L: there's the config for your viewing displeasure
06:44 PM roycroft: which reminds me
06:44 PM roycroft: i need to start shopping for limit switches
06:44 PM Tom_L: heh
06:44 PM roycroft: i have the power schematic almost finished
06:44 PM Tom_L: i used cheap chinese roller switches
06:44 PM Tom_L: they actually seem rather consistent
06:44 PM roycroft: i need to do the e-stop circuit next
06:45 PM roycroft: and underhaus_: limit switches should aways be nc, not no
06:46 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/Y_Axis_limitswitches2.jpg
06:47 PM roycroft: i've had that discussion before, and i don't think it's even worth debating
06:47 PM Tom_L: yep, if a wire gets cut etc it also stops
06:47 PM unterhaus_: I have large industrial limit switches, but I think inside it's the same mechanism as one of the little switches
06:47 PM roycroft: right
06:47 PM JT-Cave: a limit switch should not be the physical stop or...
06:48 PM jdh: like most printers
06:48 PM roycroft: if a safety feature fails, the failure of the feature should trigger the same event that would be triggered when the feature is actuated
06:48 PM unterhaus_: I fixed an educational device that had the limit switches in-line with the movement
06:48 PM unterhaus_: pile of broken switches next to the machine
06:49 PM JT-Cave: yup
06:49 PM Tom_L: unterhaus_, what's that say about education?
06:49 PM unterhaus_: big box of new switches conveniently located nearby
06:49 PM roycroft: if at first you don't succeed, try, try again, until the budget runs out
06:49 PM roycroft: that's what it says :)
06:49 PM Tom_L: naw just look for another grant
06:50 PM roycroft: sure
06:50 PM unterhaus_: it's a piddling amount of money, but still not a good design
06:50 PM roycroft: but if the grant doesn't come through before you run out, you're done
06:50 PM unterhaus_: would have been easy to do it right
06:50 PM JT-Cave: make sure you use all your budget this year so they don't cut your budget next year
06:50 PM Tom_L: so take the goods and run
06:50 PM roycroft: i think that nice mr. einstein had something to day about that
06:51 PM unterhaus_: it was a nice machine otherwise
06:51 PM roycroft: and arguably the worst film ever made - plan 9 from outer space - paraphrased einstein very nicely: "you earth people are stupid! stupid! stupid!"
06:51 PM Tom_L: i'd rather be able to just say 'it was a nice machine"
06:51 PM unterhaus_: if my boss wasn't quite so lazy about stuff like that we could have fixed it
06:53 PM unterhaus_: I talked to the designer, he was a grump
06:53 PM unterhaus_: also the owner of the company
06:54 PM unterhaus_: just disabling my drives is best for stopping. And I think that's what most estop circuits do
06:54 PM unterhaus_: although there is a schematic in my drive manual on how to safely use contactors to stop the motors
06:55 PM roycroft: i need to decide the best way to do that
06:55 PM roycroft: i'm thinking that running a 24vdc circuit through the limit switches that feeds the control side of a contactor that provides power to the motors might be a good way
06:56 PM roycroft: i already have 24vdc available, which is why i picked that voltage
06:56 PM Tom_L: i added a relay for a contactor and kept the logic at 5v
06:56 PM roycroft: i'd rather that than 125vdc
06:56 PM roycroft: i'll have 5v as well
06:57 PM Tom_L: 24 is probably more common on a commercial cnc
06:57 PM roycroft: well it's a small machine
06:57 PM unterhaus_: I think they are all 24v
06:57 PM roycroft: but i figured that even so, with the real small wires i want to use, i'll get less voltage drop with 24v than with 5v
06:58 PM roycroft: dc doesn't travel well
06:58 PM unterhaus_: just need to use dc rated stuffs
06:59 PM roycroft: and since i already have 24v, i might as well use it
06:59 PM roycroft: it still does not travel well
06:59 PM roycroft: ask thomas edison about that :)
06:59 PM roycroft: he and tesla disagreed
06:59 PM roycroft: and we know who won that battle
07:02 PM roycroft: the nice thing about ac is that if you need to move it far away you can just step up the voltage with a transformer and step it back down at the other end with very little transmission loss
07:02 PM roycroft: cheap and easy
07:08 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/264871806303
07:09 PM roycroft: that looks like it will do
07:10 PM roycroft: and for that price i can buy two packs and have more than 2x as many as i need
07:28 PM ericceller: after a week still only 35 microseconds jitter max
07:28 PM ericceller: not too bad
07:30 PM ericceller: have to set up my new mesa board while I can still find it
07:35 PM roycroft: the wind is picking up here, and it's going to be stronger south of here
07:36 PM roycroft: northern california is going to have really high winds over the next couple days
07:36 PM roycroft: that might mean more fires
07:36 PM roycroft: and the current fires will intensify
08:01 PM CaptHindsight: ericceller: this the i5 board?
08:36 PM unterhaus_: Capt -- yes, i5 no bios optimizations
08:40 PM unterhaus_: not sure how much dell will let me change anyway
08:49 PM roycroft: rack enclosures have gotten so expensive
08:56 PM roycroft: probably because of the tariffs
09:00 PM unterhaus_: I could only ever afford to buy them surplus
09:00 PM unterhaus_: what are you looking for?
09:01 PM unterhaus_: I might have it
09:01 PM unterhaus_: yours for postage
09:04 PM roycroft: 3u 13-15" deep
09:04 PM roycroft: but not a computer case
09:04 PM roycroft: just an equipment case
09:05 PM roycroft: i think i just found one on amazon
09:05 PM roycroft: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01M61ZG8V/
09:19 PM unterhaus_: that's nice, I don't think I have anything quite like that. I always made them
09:26 PM roycroft: i just found that enclosure for $50 elsewhere, with $13 shipping
09:26 PM roycroft: that's about what i want to pay
09:30 PM roycroft: i pulled the rack cart out today
09:30 PM roycroft: there are exactly 6 rack units free
09:30 PM roycroft: and my power supply is 3u high
09:31 PM roycroft: so this enclosure will fill it up