#linuxcnc Logs

Oct 01 2020

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:02 AM snakedGT is now known as snaked
01:31 AM Loetmichel: Mornin'
01:31 AM Loetmichel: stinkpot: which one do you mean? i made 8 or 9 over the years
02:10 AM stinkpot: about 10 years ago you showed me a small router with a motor sourced from china
02:11 AM stinkpot: do you recall Loetmichel ?
02:11 AM stinkpot: i can't remember if it was for PCB routing or wood
02:15 AM Loetmichel: hmm
02:16 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=3077&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
02:16 AM Loetmichel: that one?
02:16 AM Loetmichel: or the classic CNC 6040 here at the company?
02:17 AM Loetmichel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lm-kpV2Msn0
03:12 AM Deejay: moin
03:25 AM Loetmichel: *GAAAAAAHHH* I really am dumb as fu***
03:25 AM Loetmichel: <- just managed to aim the propane torch right at my thumb with the inner light blue core of the flame accidentally... *thumb sucking intensiefies*
03:27 AM XXCoder: careful you almost turned into flame boy
04:54 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:07 AM XXCoder: yo
05:46 AM jymmmm: morning
06:13 AM Tom_L: morning
06:14 AM JT-Cave: yo
06:18 AM XXCoder: yo
06:48 AM JT-Cave: I want to make a copy of the sd card of a Rpi and tried sudo dd if=/dev/sde of=~/backuptest.img but it made a 32GB copy not just the files so etcher takes an hour to restore
06:52 AM JT-Cave: dd bs=4M if=/dev/sdb | gzip > image1-`date +%d%m%y`.img.gz
06:52 AM JT-Cave: hmm maybe that to compress the image
06:53 AM jymmmm: JT rsync? https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/585052/using-rsync-to-maintain-a-clone-of-the-sd-card-for-a-raspberry-pi
06:53 AM XXCoder: gzip should do it yeah. not sure how to correcly specify command byt yeah
06:54 AM * JT-Cave turns into a Chicken Tender in 2 minutes...
06:54 AM jymmmm: rsync is the greatest utility second to ssh
06:59 AM jymmmm: JT Does rPi use a MBR ?
07:01 AM unterhaus_: I feel like the setting to keep debian from logging you out with the screen saver is an easily changed setting
07:01 AM unterhaus_: who is with me on this?
07:02 AM jymmmm: JT https://rdiff-backup.net/
07:03 AM unterhaus_: jymmmm do you use that?
07:04 AM unterhaus_: rdiff, that is?
07:06 AM jymmmm: unterhaus_: I have when I need differential backups
07:07 AM jymmmm: err incremental I mean
07:11 AM jymmmm: unterhaus_: The main difference between rsync and rdiff is that rsync just does a single backup, where as rdiff you can have backups for multiple days/months, etc and select which you want to restore
07:11 AM jymmmm: https://rdiff-backup.net/docs/examples.html
07:18 AM rs[m]: JT-Cave: you could try dd conv=sparse if=... of=...
07:18 AM JT-Cave: jymmmm, what's MBR?
07:19 AM rs[m]: JT-Cave: if it works, the size of image file as reported by "du" should be near what is really used
07:19 AM JT-Cave: hmm sparse try to seek rather than write the output for NUL input blocks
07:19 AM jymmmm: JT MBR = Master Boot Record, the old school way of booting, compared to UEFI
07:19 AM JT-Cave: cool
07:20 AM rs[m]: also, when restoring, this should also be much faster, as empty blocks should not be written
07:20 AM JT-Cave: thanks
07:20 AM rs[m]: never tried it myself though
07:21 AM rs[m]: maybe it's a good idea to issue "fstrim" on the pi before imaging
07:21 AM jymmmm: "Here's a stick of dynamite, I've never used it before, but..." lmao
07:22 AM rs[m]: there is not much that can go catastrophically wrong reading an SD card with dd
07:23 AM * JT-Cave hands have warmed up so back to being a Chicken Tender
07:27 AM jymmmm: When I had ~30 different laptop/desktop models I needed to image for my users, I'd use partclone to create an image and restore the the systems. IT's included in https://www.system-rescue.org/ which is a great overall tool to have on hand to CYA
07:29 AM jymmmm: I'd make a BASE image, then another with APPS, then a 3rd with any other data that needed to be included, etc.
07:29 AM jymmmm: but not everyone needs that most of the time.
07:37 AM jymmmm: but partclone is MUCH fast than dd, and you can compress the img file too if you want.
07:39 AM rs[m]: DD is a stupid program that just copies input to output in a slightly structured way. if partclone is faster it probably knows internal file system structures and only copies parts that are used. with modern SSDs with TRIM support (and proper use by the filesystem), dd with conv=sparse shouldn't be much worse.
07:39 AM jymmmm: BUT (unless things have changed) you have to create the MBR file yourself... dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/sdb bs=512 count=1 which is just a 512 BYTE file. https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/howto-copy-mbr/
07:41 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: maybe, I haven't tried the sparse flag before.
07:42 AM rs[m]: and beware modern GPT partitioning schemes. copying the first sector ("MBR" aka "master boot record") will not be sufficient.
07:42 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: I've gotten so spoiled by using TimeMachine
07:42 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: Yeah, I kinda suspected that
07:44 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: TimeMachine was the #1 reason I went with OSX years ago. But now I'm looking for a solution like it for linux
07:44 AM rs[m]: sfdisk has dump/restore options
07:45 AM rs[m]: i used to use backuppc on linux, but on larger volumes, it is way too slow. now i'm using borg backup, running it hourly on every machine that is used to create incremental backups.
07:46 AM rs[m]: https://www.borgbackup.org/
07:47 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: Can it restore to a bare hdd?
07:47 AM rs[m]: backups can be compressed, encrypted, incremental, deduplicated and only need "stupid" storage, e.g. no server needed, no plain text travels over the network, storage doesn't need any keys.
07:48 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: out of the box, no. but it is perfect for /home
07:49 AM rs[m]: but maybe my knowledge is outdated, I initially set this up years ago. https://github.com/borgbackup/community
07:49 AM rs[m]: did the occasional restore, so it seems to work ;)
07:50 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: If it's just ~/home files, I'd rather just use rsync for that. But if I had a disk failure, I'd like to replace the hdd, then just restore the backup (includng system/apps), instead of having to do a fresh system install, THEN restore the data.
07:52 AM rs[m]: i put images of non-home-partitions into borgbackup in regular intervals, even those get deduplicated
07:52 AM rs[m]: s/non-home/root/
07:52 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: Why not use rsync?
07:53 AM rs[m]: so in the event of a disaster, i would restore the image onto new harddisk on a working system
07:53 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: rsync doesn't deduplicate, and is slow
07:55 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: imagine vm image of a windows system. run it once, rsync would create a new copy of complete disk image. with borg, only difference (plus overhead) is stored, so i can keep multiple versions around cheaply
07:55 AM rs[m]: (hourly, daily, weekly, what have you)
07:56 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: on the FS level or binary level?
07:56 AM rs[m]: but of course the on-disk format is more fragile.
07:57 AM rs[m]: AFAIK deduplication happens with a rolling checksum, so is finer than file granularity
07:57 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: Your VM disk images, are they one SINGLE file or multiple files?
07:57 AM rs[m]: single file
07:58 AM jymmmm: damn, lol.
07:58 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: https://borgbackup.readthedocs.io/en/stable/
08:01 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: Ok, so how is it backing up? Not at the file level, and it doesn't sound like at the block level either?
08:04 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: you give it a path, if it is a directory, it will be scanned, if it is a file, it backups only that file
08:05 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: while doing the backup, files are split into chunks, the boundaries of the chunks depend on the content
08:05 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: and if I give it / ???
08:05 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: only chunks that have not been seen before are stored
08:05 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: then it crawls the whole filesystem and you will have very much fun with /proc and /sys
08:05 AM rs[m]: but if you exclude those special dirs, everything works
08:06 AM rs[m]: (assuming you run it as root)
08:06 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: Is there a "LiveUSB" I could use to restore to a empty hdd?
08:07 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: not that i know of. you would have to create partitions and filesystems before restoring.
08:08 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: you could give /dev/root to borg for backing up, but that may have unwanted side effects / corruption on mounted filesystems
08:09 AM rs[m]: jymmmm: and then you could only restore the whole image, not single files within that partition.
08:10 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: I'd love something like esxi, then I just have to backup the VM file(s)... simple to backup and restore full systems
08:11 AM jymmmm: or even mount the VM img, and grab whatever files I needed.
08:13 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: I'd love ZFS snapshots =)
08:13 AM jymmmm: rs[m]: ...then I could boot from a floppy and restore :D
08:14 AM rs[m]: not sure how that would work... i don't find zfs snapshots particularly useful
08:15 AM JT-Cave: sudo dd conv=sparse if=/dev/sde | gzip > image1-`date +%d%m%y`.img.gz
08:15 AM JT-Cave: this gave me a 4.4GB image
08:16 AM rs[m]: JT-Cave: ls -lh should still report 32gig
08:17 AM JT-Cave: 4265360 -rw-r--r-- 1 john john 4367720710 Oct 1 08:14 image1-011020.img.gz
08:19 AM rs[m]: ah sorry i missed the "gz" part.
08:19 AM jymmmm: where's the "of=/dev/blah" or is it not needed?
08:20 AM rs[m]: JT-Cave: if you want to use this to create images I would test restoring it to a fresh empty SD card and check if it still works. who knows...
08:21 AM JT-Cave: the output is piped to gzip
08:22 AM jymmmm: JT ok, thanks. I saw that, just didn't know that dd could do that without the "of=" is all =)
08:22 AM JT-Cave: yes I want to make copies of an image
08:22 AM JT-Cave: but first time to shower and start working
09:15 AM Loetmichel: hehe, coworker just: **sigh!** $me: "what?" him: "Ah, nothing. Its just that life is like the hair in the ass. Short and full of Shit!"
12:14 PM miss0r2: evening
12:47 PM JT-Shop: yo
01:04 PM miss0r2: Why the hell is this stainless steel here so hard on my tools?!
01:05 PM miss0r2: Its just garden vareity 316. not usualy this dificult to work with
01:06 PM JT-Shop: slow the sfm down, may be work hardening
01:07 PM miss0r2: it sure is. But then I will never get done :D
01:07 PM * miss0r2 has just slowed down things
01:09 PM JT-Shop: go have a beer while the mill works
01:09 PM miss0r2: The problem is, I have 10 identical setups, then after that I have 20
01:10 PM miss0r2: tip of cutter not emitting visible light yet = good sign
01:18 PM miss0r2: and there it went.
01:19 PM miss0r2: I've had to change out the programming to use 12mm instead of 10. But Now I only have two left, including the one I just installed
01:19 PM miss0r2: At this rate, it will be impossible to make money doing this :D
01:27 PM miss0r2: it would seem I should do the pockets with a 6mm endmill. I have bucket loads of them :)
01:42 PM miss0r2: This stuff acts like inconel...
01:42 PM miss0r2: Bah! Why did I have to go and make it all fancy?! I should've just had it laser cut, and forget about the small bosses to center the pipe
01:43 PM stinkpot: hi Loetmichel
01:43 PM stinkpot: thanks for that
02:14 PM JT-Shop: machining omission fixed, just have to powder coat the parts again :(
02:16 PM miss0r2: lol
02:16 PM miss0r2: powder coating an exhaust manifold... Bright new world it is :D
02:18 PM JT-Shop: you can ceracoat an exhaust manifold
02:18 PM miss0r2: yeah
02:18 PM JT-Shop: these parts are for automation of a late 1800's spoke lathe
02:18 PM miss0r2: but the thickness of said coat is not quite enough to cover what I am doing here :D
02:18 PM miss0r2: indeed'
02:19 PM miss0r2: time period correct surface treatment then :)
02:19 PM JT-Shop: https://gnipsel.com/images/customers/Foxy/
02:20 PM miss0r2: That thing has seen a few summers
02:24 PM Tom_L: jt will have that shining like a diamond in a goat's arse before you know it
02:25 PM miss0r2: Looking forward to that :D
02:27 PM Tom_L: you could be work hardening because you're going to slow too
02:28 PM miss0r2: yeah. I have some pretty good recepies for stainless. But this is kicking my ass here
02:38 PM miss0r2: I figured out what killed off the last cutter.
02:38 PM * JT-Shop is glad he almost never has to machine stainless
02:38 PM miss0r2: Again me being an idiot
02:38 PM JT-Shop: what
02:39 PM miss0r2: doing a helical bore in a 12.5mm through hole with a 12mm cutter.
02:39 PM miss0r2: That is not quite enough, even if the endmill has a center cutter
02:39 PM miss0r2: which, this one did not :D
02:39 PM JT-Shop: yea drill undersize hole first
02:40 PM miss0r2: yeah well. I am finishing the last one with an 8mm endmill
02:40 PM miss0r2: Then I don't have to do any more helical drilling. Then I just have to do a square-ish through hole and a contour. lots of meat to mandle that
02:42 PM miss0r2: I might have done something like that, if I had an ATC
02:42 PM miss0r2: but I don't
02:45 PM miss0r2: If only I could weld alu worth a damn, I would see if it was possible to make the manifold from that
02:45 PM Rab: Tom_L, you have a Craftsman lathe?
02:45 PM Tom_L: a small one
02:46 PM JT-Shop: damn that jalapeƱo I put in my cheese wrap was hot
02:46 PM Tom_L: lets you know you're alive! .... twice
02:47 PM Rab: Someone here is selling one for $500 that looks identical to yours. I'm desperate for a lathe, but I dunno if I shouldn't wait and put the money into something heavier.
02:47 PM Tom_L: it's light weight but i've done quite a bit with it
02:48 PM Rab: Does the spindle have plain or ball bearings?
02:48 PM Tom_L: bushing
02:48 PM Rab: ahh
02:49 PM Tom_L: that or babbitt, i've never had it that far apart
03:03 PM Loetmichel: stinkpot: thanks for what?
03:14 PM Deejay: gn8
03:29 PM stinkpot: Loetmichel: thanks for the video
04:15 PM JT-Cave: wow the humidity is only 25%
04:16 PM JT-Cave: very odd for swamp east Missouri
04:16 PM miss0r2: FFS this material are killing my endmills
04:16 PM miss0r2: I'm giving it a go with HSS now. (Not having high hopes)
04:21 PM miss0r2: nope...
04:21 PM miss0r2: I'm seriously at a loss here
04:23 PM Loetmichel: stinkpot: its just the two cheap Chinese CNC 6040 routers at the company. i made some enclosures for them though
04:23 PM Loetmichel: miss0r2: which material?
04:25 PM miss0r2: Loetmichel: it *should* be ordinary 316
04:26 PM Loetmichel: but it isnt?
04:26 PM Loetmichel: ah, some kind of V4A
04:27 PM Loetmichel: you are aware that those marine grade stainless tend to work harden?
04:27 PM miss0r2: yeah
04:27 PM miss0r2: But it would seem this particular batch has some abbrasive property
04:27 PM Loetmichel: and from what i remember machining v4a its nasty already
04:27 PM Loetmichel: even if NOT work hardened
04:27 PM miss0r2: indeed
04:28 PM Loetmichel: took me quite some time and a big hammer to get some dents out of a box of 4mm thick v4a back in the days for example
04:29 PM Loetmichel: MUCH more work than getting the dents INTO it ;)
04:29 PM miss0r2: Yeah. But this is somehow fooling me
04:29 PM miss0r2: I've spend ~8 carbide cutters by now (12, 10 & 8mm)
04:29 PM miss0r2: All trying out different feeds&speeds
04:29 PM Loetmichel: is it worked or cast stainless?
04:29 PM miss0r2: all the time it is completely flooded in coolant
04:30 PM miss0r2: worked to some degree
04:30 PM Loetmichel: aeh, forged or cast
04:30 PM miss0r2: "walsed"
04:30 PM Loetmichel: hmm
04:30 PM Loetmichel: that should drive any impurities from casting out
04:30 PM Loetmichel: so its not casting sand that makes your time hard.
04:30 PM Loetmichel: was a thought ;)
04:31 PM miss0r2: Yeah.
04:31 PM miss0r2: All the other parts I've made for this project has not made me suffer so.
04:31 PM miss0r2: and it *should* be the same material
04:31 PM miss0r2: but not from the same batch
04:31 PM Loetmichel: maybe the end of a bar?
04:31 PM Loetmichel: which was not worked "sufficiently"?
04:32 PM miss0r2: maybe
04:32 PM miss0r2: although: I cut the pieces from a 6m piece
04:32 PM miss0r2: and they are all equally insufferable
04:32 PM Loetmichel: hmm
04:33 PM Loetmichel: i once had M8 8.8 screws that broke when screwed into the wall with a 1/4" ratchet. onehanded
04:33 PM miss0r2: at the moment I am waiting for a "SCREEEEEEEETCH.. PING"
04:33 PM Loetmichel: turned out whole box was glass hard
04:33 PM Loetmichel: no annealing
04:33 PM Loetmichel: maybe something like that?
04:33 PM miss0r2: well. I cut it all with a HSS cold saw before machining.
04:34 PM miss0r2: It *DID* cost me a tooth on the saw, though.. :)
04:35 PM miss0r2: I guess the next step is to run it at completely snail speed
04:35 PM miss0r2: which is what the circular cold saw does
04:37 PM miss0r2: hmm. so far this 6mm endmill with a 0.8mm corner radius is doing well
04:37 PM miss0r2: and as I was writing that, it made a sound that made me cringe :D
04:39 PM miss0r2: I hope this material ends up being as durable in application as it is in machining
04:46 PM miss0r2: I don't get it..
04:46 PM miss0r2: Loetmichel: Can you help me do a sanity check on my numbers?
04:47 PM miss0r2: 8mm TIALN coated carbide endmill, 4 flute. Running at 4000rpm, with a feedrate of 400mm/min
04:48 PM miss0r2: That should give a cuttingspeed of roughly 100.
04:48 PM miss0r2: Doesn't that strike you as conservative?
04:50 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
04:52 PM Tom_L: what's the chip load?
04:54 PM miss0r2: tom_l: You mean feed/tooth?
04:54 PM miss0r2: 0.025mm in that case
04:54 PM miss0r2: and the current run I only did 2mm DOC
04:54 PM miss0r2: with a 3.75mm stepover
04:56 PM Tom_L: i don't think that's enough chip load
04:56 PM Tom_L: is it breaking the cutter or work hardening?
04:56 PM miss0r2: That was the last try
04:57 PM miss0r2: breaking the cutter in said case
04:57 PM Tom_L: well, that's .001" chip load which may be ok
04:57 PM miss0r2: workhardening(visibly) in latter cases
04:57 PM Tom_L: you could try a little more
04:57 PM miss0r2: I started out with 0.05, then 0.04 and lastly 0.025
04:57 PM miss0r2: All cases broke the cutter
04:58 PM Tom_L: .03
04:58 PM miss0r2: is the golden spot... hehe
04:58 PM Tom_L: would be moderate
04:58 PM Tom_L: and slow the rpm down
04:58 PM Tom_L: but keep the load
04:59 PM Tom_L: just try 2500 rpm @ .003 and see
04:59 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
05:00 PM Tom_L: that's 300mm/min
05:00 PM Tom_L: i don't speak mm so i'm converting but i'd try that
05:01 PM Tom_L: that rate is 480mm/min @ 4k rpm
05:01 PM miss0r2: yeah. I just did a rather successfull cut with a 6mm endmill, 0.7mm radius. 4000rpm, 250mm/min feedrate. that gives a 0.0156 feed/tooth
05:01 PM miss0r2: cutting speed of 75.
05:02 PM miss0r2: that was a 0.5mm doc at full width.
05:02 PM miss0r2: didn't make a dent in the cutter. It sounded *alright-ish* and the surface looks great
05:03 PM miss0r2: Straight off the mill, not even deburred yet: https://imgur.com/a/uX54Wo8
05:04 PM miss0r2: awfull part. Now I only need to complete another 15
05:04 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
05:05 PM miss0r2: I should just sod it, and use an insert endmill
05:05 PM miss0r2: something so hard it would never loose to this stuff
05:06 PM miss0r2: But any real attempts at the new feeds/speeds will have to wait for tomorrow. For one; it is midnight now(here atleast). two: I won't have any more cutters to play with before tomorrow
05:07 PM miss0r2: Thats going to be it for tonight. See you around
05:10 PM Tom_L: later
05:19 PM stinkpot: i see loetmichel
05:24 PM JavaBean: no you don't... that is just an illusion caused by being "stuck indoors" for too long. i recommend going camping or maybe out on a boat
11:04 PM snakedLX is now known as snaked
11:43 PM * norias yawns.