#linuxcnc Logs
Aug 28 2020
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:19 AM zipper is now known as Guest65401
12:27 AM veegee: CaptHindsight so it's just roller chain?
12:27 AM veegee: What's the point of that?
12:30 AM CaptHindsight: https://entro-eng.com/products/material-handling/roller-chain-load-skates/
12:38 AM veegee: CaptHindsight oh so it truly spreads the load equally on all rollers?
12:39 AM veegee: kind of like manually putting pipes under the machine and moving the last pipe from the back to the front
12:39 AM CaptHindsight: yes
12:39 AM CaptHindsight: more rollers than just 4-5 cam bearings
12:40 AM veegee: so it's literally an automatic version of a guy moving ejected pipes to the front
12:52 AM veegee: CaptHindsight how do you expect the friction characteristics to be on t hose?
12:53 AM veegee: I would imagine lower friction on the chain roller since the wheel bearing for each roller isn't loaded
12:58 AM Deejay: moin
01:28 AM unreal is now known as Guest77511
01:39 AM CaptHindsight: veegee: most of the load is on the outside of the roller vs an inner bearing
01:40 AM veegee: CaptHindsight yeah I meant for conventional skates with an axle
01:40 AM veegee: for this, the axle of each roller has zero load
01:40 AM CaptHindsight: yeah
01:41 AM CaptHindsight: like a thousand Egyptian slaves cry out
04:57 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:00 AM XXCoder: hey
05:06 AM JT-Cave: we got a bit over an inch of rain last night
05:07 AM XXCoder: nice
05:07 AM XXCoder: here is very dry
05:07 AM XXCoder: fire risk
05:08 AM XXCoder: so dry that if I throw up grape, I would get grape back down
05:08 AM XXCoder: nah not that bad but quite dry weather
05:12 AM JT-Cave: still having random leds lighting up on the dotstar like there is some noise on the spi
05:13 AM XXCoder: wish i knew more lol
05:13 AM XXCoder: signal errors?
05:14 AM JT-Cave: me too
05:14 AM JT-Cave: dunno
05:14 AM XXCoder: is any wire coiled up?
05:14 AM XXCoder: ie wound up to manage wires
05:14 AM XXCoder: that CAN cause induction to add noise. virtually only thing I can think of
05:15 AM JT-Cave: well the dotstar string is still on the roll but the wires from the level shifter are very short
05:15 AM XXCoder: would rolled up dotstar strip do induction too? dunno
05:15 AM JT-Cave: dunno it's 5v
05:18 AM JT-Cave: I unrolled it and only one stray led lit up
05:19 AM XXCoder: one light? wonder if its screwy solder
05:25 AM JT-Cave: different leds are lighting up this time I ran the program
05:27 AM XXCoder: probably not induction but im starting to wonder about solder lol
05:27 AM XXCoder: do stuff react as you change bend?
05:27 AM JT-Cave: might be the Rpi
05:27 AM JT-Cave: no
05:27 AM XXCoder: dunno hope you find the source
05:29 AM JT-Cave: might try the ardunio to see if that is the issue
05:29 AM XXCoder: good idea. swap stuff find wheres the source
05:34 AM huibuuh is now known as htasta
06:12 AM Tom_L: morning
06:17 AM XXCoder: yo
06:36 AM JT-Cave: pretty steady rain here
06:45 AM JT-Cave: XXCoder, no random leds lighting up with a nano
06:46 AM XXCoder: hm
06:47 AM XXCoder: hard to say whats going on without graph see whats going on with electric signaling
06:49 AM XXCoder: oh yes olloiscope
06:49 AM XXCoder: whatever thats spelled
06:51 AM JT-Cave: I'd have to do some major cleaning down here to have enough table space for the oscilloscope to fit lol
06:53 AM XXCoder: theres tiny kit ones now
06:53 AM XXCoder: also ones that use phone or computer
06:53 AM XXCoder: limted on mhz but for this maybe enough?
06:56 AM JT-Cave: I wonder if the SPI clock speed is wrong
06:56 AM JT-Cave: https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/spi/README.md
06:56 AM XXCoder: lol 200kh I THINK https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32957706370.html
06:59 AM JT-Cave: https://www.arduino.cc/en/Reference/SPISetClockDivider
06:59 AM JT-Cave: looks like the nano is 4 Mhz
07:30 AM beachbumpete1: Mornin
07:30 AM XXCoder: hey bum
07:31 AM beachbumpete1: Thank God its Friday ;)
07:35 AM JT-Cave: odd the adafruit dotstar lib is green red blue...
07:48 AM JT-Cave: #define DOTSTAR_BGR (2 | (1 << 2) | (0 << 4)) ///< Transmit as B,G,R
07:48 AM JT-Cave: ah ha I had to change the transmit colors sequence
07:55 AM XXCoder: so you got it working properly on rpi?
08:09 AM jymmmm: JT What are you doing with dotstars?
08:14 AM jymmmm: JT Jumbo Chicken vision? https://learn.adafruit.com/assets/63270
08:23 AM JT-Cave: trying to simulate dawn-sunrise and sunset-dusk
08:33 AM jymmmm: oh, very cool. Going to sync it to gps and sunrise/sunset tables?
08:34 AM jymmmm: Or is that calculated? Not sure, my gps has that but no internet connection, so I'm guessing it's a table lookup or some calculaton
08:41 AM jymmmm: Oh cool, LED's DO produce Vitamin D, I know it was an issue for our birds https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/09/170913193101.htm
08:48 AM veegee: jymmmm D: really? How do I extract it from them?
08:48 AM veegee: I tried to squeeze them, but they just broke :(
08:49 AM jymmmm: veegee: sunlight has always been a source of Vitamin D for birds.
08:49 AM veegee: jymmmm I was kidding
08:49 AM veegee: The vitamin D doesn't come from the LED or the light itself
08:49 AM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: I found this copper... https://www.ebay.com/itm/COPPER-STRIP-BEZEL-Sheet-Gauges-24-28-DEAD-SOFT-1-8-1-4-1-2-3-16-1-Bare-USA/131801227612
08:49 AM veegee: it comes from your body, the light just stimulates it
08:50 AM JT-Shop: it's synced to the coordinates here and using the astral lib to get sun events
08:50 AM veegee: CaptHindsight so I ordered 4 of these: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0052PWAOM
08:50 AM veegee: Half the price of grainger or similar industrial supplier
08:50 AM jymmmm: JT Sweet! You have the most spoiled chickens ever =)
08:50 AM veegee: Damn expensive for 4 of those, but I shouldn't have an issue moving anything ever again
08:51 AM jymmmm: JT Next on the list.... Chicken Hot Tub, with bubbles
09:35 AM Centurion-Dan2 is now known as Centurion_Dan
09:38 AM unterhaus_: oil for the apron on my lathe is expensive
09:46 AM unterhaus_: 5 gallon, which I will never use is $200, 1 gallon is $125
09:47 AM burklefoo: Thats some predatory pricing...
09:50 AM unterhaus_: I think it's cheap oil too
09:50 AM unterhaus_: as in "should be inexpensive" oil
09:51 AM unterhaus_: if I just buy "gear oil" it's $15 a gallon
09:52 AM unterhaus_: $50 for a gallon of synthetic
09:56 AM roycroft: be careful with gear oil if you have any brass parts with which it may come in contact
09:56 AM roycroft: most gear oils are not safe for brass
09:57 AM burklefoo: because of sulfur?
09:57 AM roycroft: and other additives
10:04 AM htasta: hey andypugh are you here?
10:06 AM htasta: I ran into an issue trying to add comments to the tool table. it makes the CMS message to big, can't throw in 56*256 bytes in there :D
10:16 AM unterhaus_: It calls for ISO 320 Mobil AA
10:23 AM unterhaus_: I wouldn't think synthetic would eat anything?
10:24 AM roycroft: it depends on the composition of the synthetic oil
11:24 AM andypugh: htasta: Ah, yes, that could be a problem. And an even bigger one with the new 1000 tool table.
11:26 AM andypugh: It’s all a bit daft, there is no point copying the whole tool table in to the realtime code. The only reason that you might want to do that is to support computed tool choice, but I doubt anyone does that (M6 T[#3 + #21] sort of thing)
11:27 AM andypugh: We should just accept that tool-changes break blending, only have one tool in “motion” and pop out to look in a database every tool change.
11:29 AM andypugh: htasta: This is what needed to be done to have 1000 tools: https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/commit/b51ef8cc3c560b6c44d095814988a3f972bc0763
11:31 AM htasta: yeah, I suspected that having comments (which aren't critical) in the critical code path wasn't a good approach.
11:31 AM andypugh: So, you can easily make room for the comments in the 56 tool table for your own use. But a proper solution would be needed.
11:31 AM htasta: I guess I just read the file on every manual tool change, shouldn't be much of an issue
11:32 AM andypugh: I don’t think it really matters, we are still talking about relatively tiny amounts of data.
11:33 AM andypugh: But, yes, if it’s not looking like a mergeable change then you should do what is easiest for you. Sorry for pointing you in the wrong direction.
11:33 AM htasta: no worries, now I got a good dev setup thanks to that :D
11:35 AM htasta: but what would be good is being able to get the .ini location with the python module
11:35 AM htasta: I don't see why this needs to be provided by the caller because linuxcnc already has it
11:54 AM * JT-Cave has to make and "exact" bend in a piece of 14 gauge after lunch minute is up
12:59 PM unreal is now known as Guest48570
01:37 PM JT-Shop: cover is in the oven gassing off... time to play with the chickens
01:58 PM unterhaus_: well, I killed that keyboard somehow
02:00 PM unterhaus_: the feed rod on my lathe is stuck with the pin as close to the lathe as possible
02:00 PM unterhaus_: so getting that pin out is going to be a trick
02:01 PM methods_: explosives?
02:01 PM methods_: they work great for getting stuff unstuck
02:45 PM * JT-Shop wonders if he cleans up enough he can find the 1/4-20 spiral flute bottom tap?
02:49 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, not in the wood shop, better try the other one
02:49 PM JT-Shop: I'm in the machine shop
02:49 PM Tom_L: get your head trammed again?
02:50 PM Tom_L: no that's not a medical procedure...
02:50 PM roycroft: if you can't find it head to the tool room and get another one
02:53 PM JT-Shop: yea I have a ground plate that I use to tram with
02:53 PM JT-Shop: after I smack my forehead with it
02:53 PM Tom_L: nice, i could use something like that
02:54 PM JT-Shop: 6" x 6" x 3/4" hardened and ground
02:55 PM JT-Shop: cover is in the oven curing the powder so it's off to the coop for me
02:55 PM Tom_L: cover for what?
02:57 PM Tom_L: you _could_ send some of that rain this way too if you think about it
02:58 PM CaptHindsight: 33C today, back to 25C tomorrow and for a while
02:59 PM JT-Shop: the lathe dog
03:00 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: looks like you guys cool off as well
03:09 PM JT-Shop: https://gnipsel.com/images/customers/Foxy/dog-01.jpg
03:09 PM JT-Shop: https://gnipsel.com/images/customers/Foxy/dog-02.jpg
03:09 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L,
03:10 PM Deejay: gn8
03:16 PM unterhaus_: I guess I'll have to take the apron off with the feed rod still in it and then take the pin out.
03:26 PM JT-Shop: powder coat done... that's it for me today
03:27 PM roycroft: my day job is almost over for the week
03:27 PM roycroft: so the real work is about to begin
03:35 PM JT-Shop: got any new photos of the workbench?
03:52 PM roycroft: did you see the ones of the dry assembly of the base, jt-shop?
03:53 PM * roycroft just ran out to iron his bench legs so they'll be ready for the work he needs to do after his day job is over
03:54 PM roycroft: https://www.roycroft.us/Bench/Base-Assembly-Dry-Fit-1.jpeg
03:54 PM roycroft: https://www.roycroft.us/Bench/Base-Assembly-Dry-Fit-2.jpeg
03:55 PM roycroft: i am hoping to have the base completely assembled by the end of this weekend
03:56 PM JT-Shop: roycroft, no missed them
03:57 PM JT-Shop: massive!
03:58 PM JT-Shop: roycroft, what kind of wood did you use?
03:58 PM roycroft: ash
04:00 PM JT-Shop: looks real nice
04:07 PM roycroft: thanks
04:07 PM roycroft: i glued up and pegged the right side of the base yesterday
04:08 PM roycroft: the joinery is not perfect, but it's quite acceptable
04:08 PM roycroft: and it's about 0.25mm out of square
04:08 PM roycroft: which is also quite acceptable
04:11 PM roycroft: also, to start getting a sense of how much the bench will weigh, i weighed that part last night - it comes in at 25kg
04:11 PM roycroft: so the whole base will probably be about 60-70kg
04:11 PM roycroft: and the bench top pieces i'd estimate at ~60kg each
04:12 PM roycroft: adding the vises and the hardware, the whole thing will probably weigh ~200kg
04:12 PM roycroft: and that's pretty massive for a workbench - i don't think it will move when i'm planing or chiseling on it
04:24 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, looks a little crazy fitting new tech with old
04:25 PM JT-Shop: pretty challenging for sure
04:25 PM Tom_L: do you make drawings of stuff or how do you figure all that out?
04:26 PM JT-Shop: lol both
04:26 PM Tom_L: definitely looks like a challenge
04:26 PM JT-Shop: just dream up stuff and use SW
04:26 PM Tom_L: yeah
04:26 PM JT-Shop: sometimes I just get bits and put them in place and see if it will work or not
04:26 PM Tom_L: what's the black box? pneumatic control?
04:28 PM roycroft: jt-shop: are you thinking about converting from sw to freecad?
04:28 PM Tom_L: i seriously doubt that
04:28 PM roycroft: he's in #freecad, which is why i'm asking
04:28 PM Tom_L: oh
04:29 PM roycroft: i've been looking into freecad for some time
04:29 PM Tom_L: i tried it for a bit and decided i was better off for now with what i've already got
04:29 PM roycroft: but find myself still using solidworks
04:29 PM roycroft: the problems are:
04:29 PM roycroft: 1. my sw license is really old - i have 2012 - and i don't have support and don't want to spend thousands of dollars to upgrade
04:30 PM Tom_L: i like catia over sw but it costs alot more
04:30 PM roycroft: and 2. i don't have any cam software for my version, and since it's out of support i can't get the cam software
04:30 PM roycroft: i don't need cam software at this point, but i shall
04:30 PM CaptHindsight: all the good stuff is >$10-20K
04:30 PM roycroft: and freecad has a cam workbench, at least for 2d cam
04:30 PM roycroft: maybe 2.5d - i'm not sure
04:31 PM Tom_L: if i need a model, i'll model it in catia and iges it out to my cad cam and finish the cam part
04:31 PM roycroft: there's fusion 360
04:31 PM roycroft: but it requires calling home frequently, and autodesk get to own all your files
04:31 PM Tom_L: i didn't get along with that very well
04:31 PM CaptHindsight: if someone funds a project I'll write 5-axis CAM for it
04:31 PM Tom_L: for fusion?
04:31 PM roycroft: yes
04:31 PM roycroft: oh
04:31 PM CaptHindsight: freecad
04:32 PM roycroft: you're taking to capthindsight
04:32 PM CaptHindsight: fusion already offers 5-axis CAM
04:32 PM roycroft: fusion already has that
04:32 PM Tom_L: it would be nice just to see it handle inch better
04:33 PM roycroft: freecad seems to have most of the features an average user needs at this point
04:33 PM roycroft: my biggest problem with it is that it's just so weird
04:33 PM Tom_L: i can post either one real easy with my cad cam
04:33 PM roycroft: all those workbenches
04:33 PM Tom_L: yeah
04:33 PM roycroft: it makes for a really convoluted, non-intuitive workflow
04:33 PM Tom_L: it's still bottle feeding though
04:33 PM roycroft: i understand the model
04:33 PM roycroft: i just disagree with it :)
04:34 PM roycroft: but i don't disagree so strongly that i'll slap down $5k to upgrade my sw license
04:34 PM roycroft: or whatever it costs now
04:34 PM CaptHindsight: huh I have version 0.18 build 16146 (Git) here
04:34 PM roycroft: that's about what we paid for it back in 2010
04:34 PM Tom_L: if i were gonna do that, i'd go with mastercam
04:35 PM roycroft: i'm on 0.19
04:35 PM roycroft: 0.18 does not run on mac os
04:35 PM roycroft: it installs
04:35 PM roycroft: and it crashes
04:35 PM roycroft: but it does not run
04:35 PM roycroft: so i'm running the bleeding edge code for stability :)
04:36 PM roycroft: if i'm honest, sw 2012 still works great for me - it does everything i need except the cam stuff
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: i have a step file, lets see if it can opemn it
04:36 PM roycroft: which i don't need right now
04:36 PM roycroft: but it's generally best not to run old code like that when there are so many upgrades since
04:37 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, what kinda funding are we talking here
04:37 PM roycroft: also, i hate having to fire up a windows vm every time i want to open up solidworks
04:37 PM roycroft: freecad runs natively on mac os, and on linux
04:37 PM roycroft: $100k would probably get him a good start on it :)
04:37 PM CaptHindsight: IT WORKED!!
04:38 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: waiting for a project i can include it in
04:39 PM CaptHindsight: how do i get freecad to freely rotate an object
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: clicking on different views works
04:42 PM CaptHindsight: ah change navigation styles
04:43 PM Tom_L: wonder how difficult it would be to define the axis on 5 axis for the post
04:43 PM Tom_L: be it cradle or head movement
04:44 PM CaptHindsight: how to use the ruler?
04:44 PM Tom_L: something like that
04:45 PM roycroft: i have one of those 3dconnexion space mouse things for navigation
04:45 PM roycroft: i wonder if that works with freecad
04:45 PM Rab: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079V4PXYD
04:45 PM Tom_L: i doubt it
04:45 PM Tom_L: i don't like those
04:45 PM roycroft: i've never tried it
04:45 PM roycroft: i like mine
04:45 PM Rab: Works great, although some builds have broken support.
04:45 PM Tom_L: they had the expensive ones at the vo'tech and nobody used them
04:45 PM roycroft: but i use a laptop a lot for solidworks stuff
04:45 PM roycroft: and it's a pain to navigate with a track pad
04:45 PM CaptHindsight: does the ruler work in freecad ?
04:46 PM roycroft: rab: does one need to load drivers for it, or does freecad just know?
04:46 PM roycroft: i don't have mac os drivers for mine - just windows drivers
04:46 PM roycroft: i don't even know if mac os drivers exist for it
04:46 PM Tom_L: you can't download them?
04:47 PM CaptHindsight: I'm used to SW, Catia, NX
04:47 PM CaptHindsight: how does the ruler work in freecad
04:47 PM Tom_L: can't tell you
04:47 PM Rab: roycroft, I've only used it under Linux, and you have to load spcnavd or whatever it's called first.
04:47 PM roycroft: so it does need a driver or daemon
04:47 PM Rab: Correct.
04:47 PM roycroft: i'll see if they have any mac stuff on their website
04:48 PM CaptHindsight: one usually highlights two edges and iut gives you the distance between or the dia of a circle etc
04:48 PM roycroft: yes, they do have software for mac os
04:48 PM roycroft: so that's a small project
04:48 PM CaptHindsight: the ruler just seems to highlight a feature
04:49 PM Rab: SolveSpace also supports Spacemouse devices, but again, support is broken in some releases...I think there just aren't many developers with Spacemice.
04:49 PM Rab: But it's awesome when it works. I hate having to fall back to the mouse.
04:49 PM roycroft: i don't love it
04:50 PM roycroft: but it's a lot better than a track pad
04:50 PM roycroft: on my imac i always use the mouse for solidworks
04:50 PM roycroft: on my macbook pro i usually use the spacemouse
04:50 PM Rab: FreeCAD has a whole control panel for tweaking the axes, sensitivity, etc.
04:50 PM roycroft: on the imac it's mainly because i have to use the mouse for a lot of stuff anyway
04:51 PM roycroft: and i also use the keyboard, of course
04:51 PM roycroft: the spacemouse just adds another device i have to deal with
04:53 PM roycroft: if my mom were the goddess lakshmi i would not mind having to deal with the extra devices, as i'd have sufficient hands to manage them all simultaneously
04:53 PM roycroft: but i'm not and i don't
04:54 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: I don't expect to see $10K even from crowd funding
04:54 PM Tom_L: i can do all the catia navigation from my trackball
04:54 PM roycroft: my mbp has a trackpad, not a trackball or a mouse or even a nipple
04:54 PM Tom_L: pan zoom rotate etc without lifting my hand
04:55 PM roycroft: and it's just not fun doing all the navigation work with a trackpad
04:56 PM Tom_L: sw is a whole other story as far as navigation with the trackball
04:56 PM Tom_L: not near as friendly
04:57 PM roycroft: i've never used catia
04:57 PM roycroft: so i can't compare the two
04:58 PM Tom_L: i took a few classes for it, my kids both took more than i did
04:58 PM roycroft: i'm still more proficient with autocad than with sw
04:58 PM Tom_L: omg
04:58 PM roycroft: and much of what i do is still fine to design in 2d
04:59 PM roycroft: but i'd like to start doing almost everything with whatever 3d software i end up using long-term
04:59 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/practice_drawings/
04:59 PM roycroft: just so i'm not switching back and forth
04:59 PM Tom_L: some of the stuff we did
04:59 PM Tom_L: i did them all both in sw and catia
04:59 PM roycroft: also, i have the same issue with autocad as sw - i'm on autocad 2008, and have not been paying for support
04:59 PM roycroft: i don't want to pay for an upgrade
05:00 PM roycroft: and in 2007 there was no mac os version - they had abandoned it well before then and did not bring it back for mac os until much later
05:00 PM roycroft: so i still have to run autocad in a windows vm
05:00 PM Tom_L: some were interesting, most just tedious
05:00 PM roycroft: but it is officially the weekend now
05:00 PM roycroft: so time to head to the shop to start sanding and assembling
05:01 PM Tom_L: your dry run looked good
05:02 PM robotustra: does anybody use arbor press?
05:03 PM Tom_L: i wish i had one
05:04 PM Tom_L: i may or may not have used my drill press for that a time or so
05:04 PM robotustra: I want one to make broaching, but I'm not sure I'll need it after that
05:04 PM Tom_L: yeah
05:04 PM robotustra: that's why I'm kind of suspended
05:04 PM robotustra: hesitating
05:04 PM Tom_L: did you see my broach setup?
05:05 PM robotustra: no
05:05 PM Tom_L: not sure i'll do it again. it's kinda hard on the mill
05:05 PM robotustra: I can do it in a mill but I don't want to break quill
05:06 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/Broach_holder2.jpg
05:06 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/broaching1.jpg
05:07 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/broaching2.jpg
05:07 PM robotustra: you did broaching with X axis?
05:07 PM Tom_L: about .003" a pass
05:07 PM Tom_L: yessir
05:08 PM Tom_L: just testing for when i really need it
05:08 PM robotustra: 0.003" = 0.07mm
05:08 PM robotustra: hair thickness
05:08 PM Tom_L: tends to grab if i try to take more
05:09 PM Tom_L: not the ideal setup
05:09 PM skunkworks: gets the job done
05:09 PM robotustra: if to make the angle 85-87 degree it will not grab
05:09 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/rotary/Broach/Test_Keyway3.jpg
05:09 PM Tom_L: the holder wasn't quite straight
05:09 PM robotustra: your angle is too small on a broach
05:10 PM Tom_L: i just grabbed a tool blank to test
05:10 PM robotustra: reasonable key hole
05:10 PM Tom_L: i might try that again
05:10 PM Tom_L: that was just scrap laying around
05:10 PM Tom_L: skunkworks, i got a spindle motor coming
05:11 PM robotustra: other angles helps too, to reduce the freaction
05:11 PM Tom_L: that's all the concern about pullies etc
05:13 PM robotustra: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Ton-Arbor-Press-Lever-Bench-Mountable-Bearings-U-Joints-Pins-Assembly-Hand/303178229057
05:13 PM robotustra: I got pulleys without keyholes and need to make 4mm keyin it
05:14 PM Tom_L: same here but i don't have them yet
05:14 PM robotustra: not sure if 1 ton press will be enough
05:14 PM Tom_L: i need 5mm
05:14 PM Tom_L: take small bites and it will
05:14 PM Tom_L: i could get a regular broach and do it right on a press but meh
05:14 PM robotustra: not sure how to do fine adjustment in this press
05:15 PM Tom_L: i'd have to take it to my bud's shop and i don't wanna bug him with it
05:15 PM robotustra: lucky you, you have a bud with a shop :)
05:16 PM Tom_L: https://www.amazon.com/BMGIANT-4mm-5mm-B1-Broaches/dp/B07CKM9634
05:16 PM robotustra: the only thing is stopping me from buying it - this press will be idle, or kids will crack walnuts on it
05:16 PM Tom_L: yeah he had a big cnc shop but sold it when he retired. he kept 2 cnc and manual mill & lathe etc
05:17 PM robotustra: I don't know what type B1 means
05:17 PM Tom_L: me either
05:17 PM robotustra: where to take bushing
05:18 PM Tom_L: put it behind the broach
05:18 PM Tom_L: i think
05:18 PM robotustra: I mean - it's not on sale
05:18 PM robotustra: the set of bushings and broaches - 160$+
05:19 PM Tom_L: i could probably grind one from a tool blank
05:19 PM Tom_L: and taper it with a wedge
05:19 PM Tom_L: i think my first method would take less time
05:21 PM Tom_L: robotustra, you can always just use a file
05:22 PM robotustra: I know, but there is a reason why having special tool is better than do once an operation with a file
05:22 PM robotustra: becuae you might have to repeat it :)
05:23 PM robotustra: and once spent 1-2 days of filing and swearing and poor result - you'll finally buy all tools and make it right
05:23 PM robotustra: in 5 minutes
05:24 PM robotustra: it's like self cheating
05:24 PM Tom_L: i had an idea the time you put into scraping :)
05:24 PM robotustra: yes, but actually I used 80% of plates I scraped
05:24 PM robotustra: and I'll use all of them
05:25 PM robotustra: only 2 big plates have left
05:26 PM robotustra: tomorrow I'll continue drilling spindlebox
05:26 PM robotustra: hope asseble it this weekend
05:27 PM robotustra: I was trying to make a print on my engraving
05:27 PM robotustra: and it's difficult - I can't get good print
05:28 PM Tom_L: did you try wet?
05:28 PM robotustra: because if improper paint
05:28 PM robotustra: Acrilic paint is ok, but it dries too fast
05:29 PM Tom_L: you're talking about the embossing right?
05:29 PM robotustra: oil paint is not sharp and pale
05:29 PM robotustra: yes
05:29 PM Tom_L: what part are you painting?
05:29 PM robotustra: grooves
05:29 PM Tom_L: not the metal?
05:29 PM robotustra: no, I'm painting on a paper
05:30 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/pendant/pendant2.jpg
05:30 PM robotustra: I want to make an etiket into violin
05:30 PM Tom_L: i just used krylon spray in a cap for that
05:30 PM Tom_L: then wiped it clean
05:30 PM Tom_L: that wouldn't do for you
05:30 PM robotustra: you didn't got, I made a mold
05:30 PM Tom_L: i saw it
05:31 PM robotustra: and I what to make a print on a paper
05:31 PM robotustra: from it
05:31 PM Tom_L: so the letters are painted?
05:31 PM robotustra: yes
05:32 PM Tom_L: try painting on a flat rubber mat and touching it to the paper
05:32 PM Tom_L: you might have to slightly roll it a tiny bit
05:32 PM Tom_L: or even cork
05:33 PM robotustra: I'm experimenting already 2 days
05:33 PM Tom_L: put extra paper close to the print on each side
05:33 PM Tom_L: or waxed paper
05:33 PM robotustra: I need an etching ink, which should stay in a slots and letter during the cleaning of the board
05:36 PM robotustra: https://imgur.com/a/O4fmXGd
05:37 PM robotustra: the best I got, acrlylic is drying too fast
05:37 PM robotustra: it should be thick oil based paint
05:38 PM robotustra: there is a special oil for estamp
05:38 PM robotustra: I mean paint
05:39 PM robotustra: I think they add rosin in it
06:13 PM skunkworks: Tom_L: cool - what wattage did you settle on
06:14 PM Tom_L: 1.2kw 5400 rpm
06:15 PM skunkworks: nice!
06:15 PM Tom_L: won't get it for a while
06:15 PM skunkworks: what are you using to drive it? or does it come with the drive?
06:16 PM Tom_L: has a bldc driver
06:16 PM Tom_L: & cables
06:54 PM skunkworks: that is cheating.. ;)
06:55 PM Guest48570 is now known as _unreal_
06:55 PM _unreal_: I'm loving my bldc spindle
06:56 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, you get your 3d printer yet
06:56 PM t4nk_freenode: yes sir!
06:57 PM Rab: robotustra, have you considered printer's ink? https://www.ebay.com/itm/312288869199
07:03 PM Tom_L: skunkworks, one thing i'm not so good at is pairing motor/drivers
07:05 PM CaptHindsight: robotustra: I saw the pic at imgur... what are you trying to do?
07:05 PM CaptHindsight: I make inks, paints, coatings etc
07:06 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, what size what model?
07:06 PM _unreal_: and what have you made so far?
07:07 PM t4nk_freenode: ehm
07:07 PM t4nk_freenode: a tiny 3pin fan connector ;)
07:07 PM t4nk_freenode: several ic sockets I'm trying to design
07:07 PM _unreal_: hum
07:07 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, as I said I'd suggest designspark for cad work
07:08 PM t4nk_freenode: and now tonight I cut up some mdf, and I got some tubing... I'm making a drill press
07:08 PM t4nk_freenode: I think that would be very useful for a start
07:08 PM _unreal_: making?
07:08 PM _unreal_: do you have a hand drill
07:09 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: "I need an etching ink, which should stay in a slots and letter during the cleaning of the board" any idea what he meant by this?
07:09 PM CaptHindsight: cleaning what board?
07:10 PM Tom_L: you saw his embossing right?
07:10 PM t4nk_freenode: yeh _unreal_ , it'll be a sturdy stand for my hand drill, and dremel, and other things I can attach
07:10 PM Tom_L: i think he wants to paint the lettering on the paper
07:10 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milescraft-Rotary-Tool-Drill-Press-Stand-for-Woodworking-and-Jewelry-Making-1097/100507168?mtc=Shopping-B-F_D25T-G-D25T-25_9_PORTABLE_POWER-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-PortablePower_PLA&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D25T-G-D25T-25_9_PORTABLE_POWER-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-PortablePower_PLA-71700000034127218-58700003933021540-92700053252310110&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1qL6BRCmARIsADV9JtbE7vmZvC5XTJSfT4h8_nh2
07:10 PM _unreal_: kla9O4AxcwgRFy1tzTm7gU6YR773Zq4aAk1LEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
07:10 PM _unreal_: arg
07:10 PM Tom_L: gawd
07:10 PM roycroft: i would guess it's about doing resist etching and then filling the bits that have been etched out
07:10 PM roycroft: and then cleaning the resist off
07:10 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: yes , saw the embossing
07:11 PM _unreal_: https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwiP3MLGj7_rAhW0_-MHHW4zBxwYABAOGgJ5bQ&sig=AOD64_3yKz9T44FVTSF_Q8cLU3m2fgH3Uw&adurl&ctype=5&ved=2ahUKEwj0nbDGj7_rAhUQG6wKHQtgAx8Qvhd6BAgBEGI
07:11 PM Tom_L: i think that's what he meant
07:11 PM Tom_L: after embossing the paper, ink the lettering
07:11 PM CaptHindsight: etching what?
07:11 PM CaptHindsight: on wha?
07:11 PM Tom_L: i've no clue
07:11 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, you can get a frame in the $30 range USD
07:11 PM CaptHindsight: heh I can't follow
07:11 PM _unreal_: far less work
07:11 PM Tom_L: that's what i gathered from the conversation though
07:11 PM t4nk_freenode: man... why don't you get it... I don't WANT it that way
07:12 PM roycroft: i've been in the shop so i really don't know :)
07:12 PM t4nk_freenode: besides, mine will be vastly superior
07:12 PM roycroft: and i'm heading back out there
07:12 PM _unreal_: I have a drill press
07:12 PM roycroft: i needed a brief break from sanding, so my entire arm does not turn numb
07:12 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight, partial language barrier possible too
07:12 PM _unreal_: infact I just used my cnc machine to build a new part for my drillpress
07:12 PM t4nk_freenode: should have just bought it!!
07:12 PM CaptHindsight: maybe "emboss the paper and have ink in the impression"?
07:12 PM t4nk_freenode: at homedepot
07:12 PM Tom_L: yes
07:12 PM CaptHindsight: ah
07:12 PM _unreal_: the original part was plastic
07:12 PM Tom_L: i think that's what he's after
07:13 PM _unreal_: I built an aluminum version
07:13 PM roycroft: usually the embossing and the inking take place at the same time if it's being done on paper
07:13 PM t4nk_freenode: nehow, I made some test prints yesterday, to fit around the tubes.. and it's very promising.. no play at all, whatsoever
07:13 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight, i don't think his embossing is defined quite enough to suit him yet either
07:13 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: not sure what he has for tools but getting him an ink is no problem either way
07:14 PM Tom_L: he may need to make a negative of it to press better
07:14 PM roycroft: it's really really really really really hard to apply a pigment to paper and then selectively remove it
07:14 PM CaptHindsight: rubber stamp, wood block, aluminum plate etc for embossing
07:14 PM roycroft: it's always best to just apply it where you want it and avoid applying it anywhere else
07:14 PM t4nk_freenode: oh and btw.. I aint jumping through hoops to get designspark on linux, but I used openscad for what I'm designing right now... never used it before, but it
07:14 PM t4nk_freenode: 's WAy more easy for me
07:15 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight, i suggested that
07:15 PM roycroft: openscad can be good for simple stuff - really fast, easy to reuse code
07:15 PM roycroft: but it requires building up a lot of libraries to do anything complicated, and that takes time
07:16 PM CaptHindsight: I've lined up inkjets to molded items
07:16 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mrS_isKU1jIbi-Nj8ODERujgE2mxSbNa/view?usp=sharing
07:16 PM CaptHindsight: we'll see what he says when he returns, robotustra
07:17 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/file/d/19Uk85mMWEZZ8-gz51yCcdpkYWa6vc1UM/view?usp=sharing
07:17 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/file/d/19VDhfUUVF5L-0HTYDEhVL9prHwBk4med/view?usp=sharing
07:20 PM Rab: It sounds like robotustra wants a technique similar to letterpress printing, with a relief engraving for the positive. E.g. https://www.owosso.com/products/magnesium-dies/letterpress-printing-plates/
07:20 PM Rab: One could photoetch a plate from any reasonably hard metal.
07:21 PM Rab: Brass would be good. For letterpress zinc is typical, magnesium or brass for hot foil stamping.
07:22 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, try doing this in OPENS cad https://drive.google.com/file/d/1L1O4iV255lWyKWPc14CdUmzafI8XcM6K/view?usp=sharing
07:23 PM t4nk_freenode: yea, so? should be easy
07:23 PM _unreal_: HAAAAAA
07:23 PM t4nk_freenode: ? nothing complex there
07:24 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fNUz8yQsjeJA0Uxd1_SwFodAyful3OVN/view?usp=sharing
07:24 PM Tom_L: etch a sketch: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Column_Mill_VMC.jpg
07:24 PM _unreal_: water block that was fun https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rZ_uWIyJqas2Pd5ph2OAzxlPHdhZAdJc/view?usp=sharing
07:24 PM t4nk_freenode: yeah, I've seen those hundreds of times _unreal_, what's your point?
07:24 PM t4nk_freenode: I'm gonna stick to openscad
07:25 PM Tom_L: some are comfortable with it
07:25 PM Tom_L: not coming from that background i didn't care for it
07:26 PM t4nk_freenode: I found it so cool to be able to just specify the object I want with code
07:27 PM t4nk_freenode: I can't use a mouse fcol
07:27 PM Tom_L: i don't like importing it into my cad due to all the triangles it generates
07:27 PM Tom_L: makes it hard to work with
07:30 PM _unreal_: between fusion360 and designspark there is little I cant bilt
07:30 PM _unreal_: build
07:31 PM _unreal_: t4nk_freenode, I typically use ESTLcam and carbide create
07:32 PM t4nk_freenode: well, I never used much ;)
07:32 PM _unreal_: carbide is pure 2d, estl is 3d. and designspark has a built in slicer for 3d printing
07:32 PM _unreal_: fusion360 CAM is a dream but often a pain to get the settings right
07:33 PM _unreal_: saddly designspark does not have any MILLING cam
07:34 PM _unreal_: now that you have a 3d printer, I would suggest looking into gettting a LASER head as an attachment for it
07:34 PM t4nk_freenode: fusion 360 aint a linux app either I belive ey? I refuse to use any of that ... stuff.
07:34 PM _unreal_: jus dont forget the safety glasses
07:34 PM Tom_L: t4nk_freenode, i'll use whatever gets the job done efficiently
07:34 PM t4nk_freenode: a laser to cut would be nice
07:34 PM _unreal_: if your making anything for structure with the 3d printer dont forget to heat treat it with an IRON
07:35 PM _unreal_: or your more likely to have a part break along the print seam
07:35 PM t4nk_freenode: so I had a look see how some printed rings would fit my 14mm tubing... and it fits real snug, happy with that
07:36 PM _unreal_: an other option is to use slow "low temp" cure epoxy and inject it into a part if it has to be super strong
07:36 PM t4nk_freenode: now I want to make a plate with 3 holes for 3 tubes
07:37 PM t4nk_freenode: nah, I took 18mm mdf, and I'm gonna stack two of those together, and then drill holes in the top part, to secure the rods even more
07:37 PM t4nk_freenode: then the plate on top of that, with some more guiding
07:37 PM t4nk_freenode: it'll be kewl
07:38 PM t4nk_freenode: but to drill the holes... I wanna visit a friend with a drill press, I don't want to take no chances
07:38 PM _unreal_: there are a lot of plans out ther for using a 3d printer to make parts to build a cnc machine
07:38 PM t4nk_freenode: if I do this without a drill press... ;) it'll get messy
07:38 PM t4nk_freenode: yeah, I had a look around, there were lots of designs for drill presses too.. but I just wanna make my own
07:39 PM t4nk_freenode: I ordered some nice stepper drivers
07:39 PM t4nk_freenode: I'll order some stepper motors too
07:39 PM _unreal_: https://all3dp.com/2/mostly-printed-cnc-mpcnc-all-you-need-to-know/
07:40 PM t4nk_freenode: not sure which ones though, nema17 are in my 3d printer, but I'm not sure if they'd be strong enough for some cnc'ing
07:40 PM t4nk_freenode: but for 25-30 euro per 5 pieces.. I wanna at least store a few of those
07:43 PM _unreal_: they are NOT likely strong enough for anykind of cutting
07:43 PM _unreal_: but laser and printing SURE because there is no load
07:44 PM _unreal_: http://www.angelfire.com/ego/stevenmanzer/CNC_PipeDream.html
07:44 PM _unreal_: milling your going to want a minimum of nema23 with 50-100 oz/in steppers
07:44 PM _unreal_: and I would suggest 100-400 oz/in
07:46 PM CaptHindsight: the grandady of all pipe based designs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PSG2al1Sus
07:48 PM _unreal_: I bet that thing flexed like a MOFO CaptHindsight
07:48 PM _unreal_: soo many bearings
07:48 PM Rab: That's a classic.
07:51 PM t4nk_freenode: my god... it's like he's dragging a diesel engine around
07:51 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight, a bit embarrasing he's using lcnc on it :)
07:51 PM Rab: Very clever, enough binding from bowing parallelograms and you have effectively zero backlash.
07:51 PM XXCoder: i remember that pipe monsity
07:52 PM t4nk_freenode: that's coming up with a bad idea... and sticking with it ;)
07:52 PM Tom_L: he's probably a plumber
07:52 PM Tom_L: gotta stick with the trade...
07:53 PM _unreal_: funnything is my machine is more or lesss partly a pipe dream build
07:53 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E7B1M1jfKI4YuSELQlFCzLoupKhEdofW/view?usp=sharing
07:55 PM _unreal_: though my z is now a non skate bearing based
07:55 PM _unreal_: z was the only axis with a good bit of backlash
08:04 PM CaptHindsight: https://imgur.com/gallery/Zq5I09Z
08:06 PM XXCoder: i found out how electric cars work https://imgur.com/73UY2is
08:06 PM _unreal_: CaptHindsight, https://www.lowes.com/pd/BLACK-DECKER-Alligator-20-Volt-Max-Lithium-Ion-6-in-Cordless-Electric-Chainsaw/1000514057?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-sol-_-google-_-pla-_-239-_-electricchainsaws-_-1000514057-_-0&placeholder=null&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1qL6BRCmARIsADV9JtbuBSzjSQQP5W3shOXAnLKsFULAPC61JEfLBD3qI9S3in67Lmxy4gwaAt9yEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
08:06 PM XXCoder: (also, ow not osha heh)
08:17 PM jdh: where is teh battery?
08:18 PM XXCoder: watch video ;)
08:18 PM jdh: I don't see one
08:20 PM robotustra: https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/it/inside-hidden-world-legacy-it-systems
08:21 PM jdh: I got some 20volt-max batteries for a toy I ordered. they get pricey
08:24 PM CaptHindsight: robotustra: are you wanting to emboss paper and only have black ink where it is embossed?
08:26 PM robotustra: yes
08:27 PM CaptHindsight: what tools do you have to work with? Can you make or order a metal plate?
08:27 PM robotustra: I made my emboss already
08:27 PM CaptHindsight: as far as ink goes you just need something with lower vapor pressure solvents so it dries slower
08:28 PM CaptHindsight: what is the plate made from?
08:28 PM robotustra: copper
08:28 PM robotustra: https://i.imgur.com/iWaepQX.jpg
08:29 PM robotustra: https://i.imgur.com/GzPvA4Q.jpg
08:29 PM robotustra: I tied oil black paint, but it is not so contrast
08:30 PM robotustra: acrylic paint dries too fast, cannot get all traces
08:30 PM CaptHindsight: which oil paint?
08:30 PM CaptHindsight: add more black pigment
08:30 PM CaptHindsight: you can add glycol to acrylic to slow down the drying rate
08:30 PM robotustra: winton oil paint
08:31 PM robotustra: you mean glycerin?
08:32 PM CaptHindsight: no but glycerol / glycerin will also slow it down
08:32 PM CaptHindsight: Vapor pressure 0.003 mmHg (50°C) for glycerol
08:32 PM robotustra: I was thinking to add more pigments and may be add some rosine to it, to make it more viscose
08:33 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.michaels.com/winsor-and-newton-winton-oil-colour-tube-37ml/MD002570S.html
08:34 PM robotustra: yes this one
08:34 PM robotustra: but it's too liquid and it's squeezed by paper
08:35 PM XXCoder: jdh: my imgur link is to a video
08:35 PM CaptHindsight: you want something closer to paste
08:36 PM CaptHindsight: offset ink is a good idea
08:37 PM jdh: oh. I was looking for a pic of that saw with battery
08:37 PM robotustra: I see on russian sites there is a special etching ink paint for emboss
08:38 PM robotustra: CaptHindsight, that's how oil paint behave https://i.imgur.com/LHHtCsi.jpg
08:39 PM robotustra: it just soaks into paper in spite of water in it
08:39 PM CaptHindsight: you just need a high viscosity deep black ink
08:39 PM CaptHindsight: oil based will dry slow
08:40 PM robotustra: yes
08:40 PM robotustra: or slow down acrylic paint
08:40 PM CaptHindsight: silk screen black will also work
08:41 PM CaptHindsight: high viscosity and acrylic, dries slowly, several minutes
08:41 PM robotustra: I need at least 20 minutes
08:41 PM robotustra: to wipe the excess of paint and clean the plate
08:42 PM robotustra: I suppose the paint should be kind of wax for boots
08:42 PM robotustra: by consistency
08:43 PM CaptHindsight: black shoe polish will never dry
08:43 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.michaels.com/screenprinting/screenprinting-ink/845165929
08:44 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.joann.com/jacquard-professional-screen-printing-ink-4-oz./17571597.html
08:45 PM robotustra: I mean by consistency
08:45 PM CaptHindsight: black oil based house paint dries slow
08:45 PM CaptHindsight: it's just not a paste
08:46 PM CaptHindsight: screen inks are near gel like
08:47 PM CaptHindsight: like cold honey
08:47 PM robotustra: I tried to find out what is the home-made etching ink
08:47 PM robotustra: nobody does it any more
08:50 PM CaptHindsight: carbon black, acrylic and water for water based
08:50 PM roycroft: sealing wax is often used to fill etchings in metal
08:51 PM roycroft: the kind used for sealing letters, not the kind used for sealing jars of jam
08:52 PM CaptHindsight: the fabric screen inks are very thick and don't dry until heat set
08:52 PM CaptHindsight: easy cleanup with water
08:53 PM robotustra: I odrered "Traditional Etching Ink : 75ml : Lamp Black" will see how it works
08:54 PM roycroft: yes, some of those inks might work really well, capthindsight
08:54 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/353069288715
08:54 PM roycroft: that's the stuff i'm talking about
08:55 PM roycroft: it comes in many colors, of course
08:55 PM roycroft: but i would not use it on etchings that will live near solvents
09:05 PM CaptHindsight: are we talking about Intaglio process or embossing / block printing?
09:09 PM CaptHindsight: copper plate etched or machined with the letter higher than the background so when pressed into paper it leaves an impression in the paper
09:09 PM CaptHindsight: if ink is on the high spots/letters the ink will remain in the low spots of the paper
09:10 PM CaptHindsight: this works on paper and other substrates that are compressible
09:12 PM CaptHindsight: ^^ the opposite of intaglio
09:12 PM CaptHindsight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intaglio_(printmaking)
09:15 PM roycroft: it's letterpress
09:21 PM CaptHindsight: I give up, no wax required
10:17 PM robotustra: in russia there are 2 types of print: "high print" when the paint is on high spots of estamp and "deep print" when the paint is in grooves and paper is compressed into these grooves by soft tissue or rubber
10:17 PM robotustra: what I'm trying to do is a "deep print"
10:18 PM robotustra: like money printing technology
10:23 PM roycroft: there are offset press inks that will expand when heated
10:24 PM roycroft: so they print fairly flat (but not nearly as flat as standard inks), then they become "raised" when passed under heat
10:42 PM CaptHindsight: to make ink dry slower you use lower vapor pressure solvents
10:42 PM CaptHindsight: faster, higher vapor pressure
10:42 PM CaptHindsight: really really faster, radcure
10:43 PM CaptHindsight: really really slow, oil
10:43 PM CaptHindsight: solvents/vehicles
10:44 PM CaptHindsight: binder is some sort of lacquer, enamel or monomer, oligomer or polymer
10:44 PM CaptHindsight: binder has to be compatible with vehicle
10:45 PM CaptHindsight: binder is chosen based on what it should adhere to
10:45 PM CaptHindsight: vehicle also modifies surface tension and effects adhesion
10:45 PM CaptHindsight: and then colorants
10:46 PM CaptHindsight: only thing left are things like modifiers for viscosity, surface tension, antimicrobial, flatness etc