#linuxcnc Logs

Aug 27 2020

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:28 AM unreal is now known as Guest13034
01:34 AM CaptHindsight is now known as PropAGanda
02:21 AM Loetmichel: Tom_L: i know, making one was just faster
04:43 AM Loetmichel: hehe, $me is just designing a new shielded enclosure for a PSU brick... its hillarious... the Mains filter is about three times the size of the actual 5V2A SMPS PCB ;) *design* *export to dxf* *generate GCODE* "TEMP WORKER; START UP THE CNC MILL!!!!111eleven!" :-)
04:49 AM JT-Cave: morning
05:19 AM skec: Hi guys, is there a way to figure out the pins of emitter and detector of encoder? I have 4 pins, and 1 of them is not connected.. so 1 should be ground, 1 5V, and signal... I cant find this specific model online...
05:20 AM Deejay: hi
05:22 AM skec: Is there a way to add photo to chat? Maybe that would help
05:23 AM rs[m]1: skec: you could upload to imgur or similar and post url
05:25 AM skec: Ok
05:25 AM rs[m]1: skec: another possbility would be matrix.org
05:27 AM skec: https://we.tl/t-Qp6sKlTRWZ
05:29 AM skec: Its wee, i added photo
05:30 AM rs[m]1: not much to see there, but if it is still in circuit, just measure the pins
05:31 AM skec: https://we.tl/t-cRd9EWpOSf
05:32 AM skec: here is better photo
05:32 AM skec: emitter should be with resistor
05:32 AM pjm: i'd have thought the 180R would be he current limiting R for the LED, probably +5v supply
05:32 AM skec: i guess
05:33 AM skec: pjm, that 180R has no lead....
05:33 AM skec: it is connected to pin
05:34 AM skec: but other end goes nowhere
05:35 AM pjm: ah just seen better photo..
05:35 AM skec: 725R is connected to pin 2 (from left)
05:36 AM rs[m]1: if this is from some cd reader or similar , you can be pretty sure that no component is included that is not needed
05:36 AM skec: Yes, its from dvd rom
05:36 AM rs[m]1: check leads with continuity tester, the trace may be hidden
05:38 AM skec: 180 seems to be connected with 750
05:38 AM skec: if i test from the side of my soldered leads
05:41 AM rs[m]1: this is probably just a combination of photodiode or -transistor and LED
05:41 AM skec: yes
05:41 AM skec: its 2 in 1...
05:41 AM rs[m]1: LED should test as a diode with around 2-4V drop depending on type (color)
05:44 AM skec: when i test with continuity, from left, first and second pin says 1.8, there is nothing between 2 and 3, and it beeps between 3 and 4
05:48 AM skec: Obviously first soldered lead goes through 750R into 2nd pin. Thus it should be +5v...
05:50 AM skec: the pins that does not have resistor should be either ground or signall?
05:52 AM rs[m]1: can't really help with the guessing, but you could look at the pcb this was connected originally to get some hints which pins contain supply
05:53 AM skec: good point :)
05:53 AM skec: thanks
06:01 AM skec: one last thing
06:01 AM skec: does this emitter collector has one name.?
06:01 AM skec: Optical encoder?
06:03 AM rs[m]1: light barrier? lichtschranke in german.
06:05 AM skec: Great, thanks, will google for that
06:06 AM XXCoder: wow. reading freecad updates
06:06 AM XXCoder: HUGE amount of em
06:06 AM XXCoder: https://wiki.freecadweb.org/Release_notes_0.19
06:06 AM XXCoder: it includes big upgrade to cam, including basic 4th axis
06:09 AM skec: What about Fusion 360? It supposed to handle 5 axis..
06:09 AM rs[m]1: XXCoder: is it released yet?
06:09 AM XXCoder: its bleeding edge release
06:10 AM rs[m]1: 0.19 is more or less the development branch, not really a release
06:10 AM rs[m]1: "expected to be released in 2020"
06:11 AM rs[m]1: at least they fixed ubuntu daily builds ppa for focal
06:11 AM XXCoder: cool
06:12 AM XXCoder: "BOLTSFC" nice
06:13 AM XXCoder: Dodo is interesting addon
06:14 AM Tom_L: morning
06:14 AM JT-Cave: morning
06:15 AM XXCoder: morning
06:16 AM skec: Morning
06:19 AM skec: in etch example linuxcnc, there is 2 inputs from 1 encoder.. in my case encoder has 3 wires...ground signal and +5v... which of these two I supposed to feed into pin 10 and 11...? Sorry for bothering..but I always run into questions, while online seems to be always just half of the information....
06:21 AM rs[m]1: skec: that encoder probably has 2 barriers that are mounted with 90° phase difference so it can sense direction
06:21 AM rs[m]1: not really needed in a dvd-drive since it doesn't spin backwards
06:21 AM rs[m]1: (the encoder that the etch example expects)
06:22 AM rs[m]1: skec: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incremental_encoder#Quadrature_outputs
06:22 AM skec: in dvd drive it uses for sledge, so i guess it needs direction.
06:24 AM Tom_L: +, -, signal or +, -, sig A, sigB and sometimes sig Z
06:24 AM rs[m]1: hmm. nonetheless, the dvd firmware knows which direction the pickup travels because it controls polarity of the motor.
06:26 AM Tom_L: you can most always eliminate black and red as power
06:26 AM skec: In case there are 3 pins , 1 ground, 1 signal , and 1 +5v, I would need to wire only signal, correct?
06:26 AM Tom_L: and gnd
06:26 AM skec: that is into paroort
06:27 AM skec: parport*
06:27 AM Tom_L: any signal needs a return path
06:27 AM Tom_L: or it may get lost in the woods
06:27 AM skec: grnd and signal to parport?
06:27 AM Tom_L: sounds like a fair guess
06:28 AM skec: cool
06:28 AM skec: thank you
06:28 AM Tom_L: some encoders need pullups on the signal lines
06:28 AM Tom_L: they may be open collector
06:31 AM skec: could i test it without connecting to parport? I could power it with 5 volts and then look for output... this way atleast all would burn is the light gate, and not parport..
06:37 AM skec: on the signal line I would expect +5v depending on the position of chopper.. I would then measure voltage between signal and ground..
06:38 AM Tom_L: better off with a scope or logic analyzer
06:38 AM Tom_L: an led might blink if it's on a signal line
06:38 AM skec: this unfortunately i do not have....
06:39 AM skec: led i do have
06:44 AM Centurion-Dan2 is now known as Centurion_Dan
06:45 AM skec: just a random thought.. did anyone try to control electric bike with linuxcnc?
07:03 AM JT-Cave: weird I'm still getting random dotstar led lighting up as if I have some sort of communication issue over spi
07:57 AM veegee: roycroft you were totally right, I should have listened to you. I tipped over the machine when moving it :(
07:58 AM rs[m]1: veegee: you are joking
07:58 AM veegee: Of course. But I was hoping roycroft would get excited and throw an "I told you so"
07:58 AM veegee: A fucking monkey can move a machine
08:00 AM rs[m]1: tipping a machine isn't that easy, esp. if the center of gravity is quite low
08:00 AM veegee: A pair of low profile 20 ton bottle jacks and some 4x4 lumber is all you need once it's inside. Then get it onto some kind of machine skates
08:00 AM rs[m]1: but i did see an accident where a big old CNC lathe fell off a forklift
08:00 AM veegee: rs[m]1 in this case, it's a 12 ft brake and 10 ft shear, each weigh over 10,000 lbs
08:00 AM veegee: and they're very tall
08:00 AM veegee: over 11 ft high
08:01 AM rs[m]1: but you would need to lift one end significantly to tip them, that needs energy and doesn't happen by chance
08:02 AM rs[m]1: though on the forklift, it's something different
08:02 AM veegee: roycroft tends to make things seem like they're insanely complicated unless you follow his idea of technical correctness. As a strong INTJ, I genuinely appreciate striving for perfection and technical correctness, but when you have time constraints and only a day to rent the 15,000 lb forklift, you have to do things a bit differently
08:03 AM veegee: Yeah I lifted it onto the loading platform from the top with grade 100 chain and lots of redundancy. I overdid it to be honest
08:03 AM veegee: I didn't have time to position it nicely with the forklift, rental company was picking it up
08:04 AM veegee: so I had to improvise and use bottle jacks and such since it's impossible to buy industrial machine skates unless you order them online and wait a few days for shipping
08:05 AM veegee: But yeah it is very different from moving a 2,500 lb vertical mill/lathe. Those can be moved around with a pallet jack. These things are beasts, whole different game
08:06 AM veegee: Lots of forged steel on there too, not just cheap cast iron. They're really damn solid. I can't believe the guy just gave them to me for free
08:06 AM veegee: All grease zerks look like he's been taking good care of them too. No rust whatsoever. Well oiled and everything moves really smooth
08:07 AM rs[m]1: hydraulic presses are dangerous
08:08 AM gloops: drat, fired router up for first time in 5 months, spindle not responding, i was expecting something to be amiss, but hoping it wasnt
08:09 AM veegee: rs[m]1 one of them is mechanical I think
08:09 AM veegee: they both have 10HP motors
08:09 AM veegee: the brake is an older machine and it looks like it's entirely mechanical, not hydraulic
08:10 AM veegee: the guy threw in a 45º and 90º die, both super sharp and perfect condition
08:10 AM veegee: He asked me to come back today to take more free stuff haha
08:42 AM gloops: false alarm, usb not plugged in
09:06 AM Tom_L: veegee, maybe he owed the bank money and didn't want them to get it
09:06 AM veegee: Tom_L no, he had them listed on kijiji for 2 months
09:07 AM veegee: I know him because I bought other equipment from him the first time and we became friends
09:07 AM veegee: He said he got a few offers but he'd rather give it to me than sell it for a few thousand
09:08 AM veegee: He also told me a couple of months ago that if he doesn't get a good offer from anyone, he'd give them to me
09:08 AM Tom_L: i don't even like you that well!
09:08 AM veegee: and he became a client of my software engineering company
09:08 AM veegee: well it's expensive equipment, I wouldn't expect anyone to give it to me for free
09:09 AM veegee: I also do a lot of free work for people and help them out and they end up becoming good friends
09:11 AM Tom_L: what are you setting up shop to make?
09:47 AM unreal is now known as Guest96021
10:05 AM skec: Hi guys, I have posted a question related to my experience with DC and encoders (https://www.forum.linuxcnc.org/38-general-linuxcnc-questions/34283-optical-encoders-with-dc-motors?start=30#179692)
10:06 AM skec: I would be grateful if you could find a minute to look at it and give some feedback
10:08 AM rs[m]1: skec: in your diagram, why is blue and black wire not connected
10:10 AM skec: blue violet and red goes towards the board of light gate
10:10 AM skec: where it connects to the appropriate grey wires, which I soldered...
10:11 AM skec: since it is easy to track the wires, I did not color them..
10:11 AM rs[m]1: skec: your encoder needs +5v/gnd and outputs one signal
10:12 AM rs[m]1: skec: but you connect GND of the encoder not to GND but to pin11 of pport which seems to be input?
10:12 AM skec: yes
10:13 AM skec: that sounds like nonsense...
10:13 AM skec: true
10:13 AM skec: but from encoder I have 3 wires coming out
10:14 AM rs[m]1: with encoder you mean only the receiver part? without the LED?
10:14 AM rs[m]1: then you would have 4 wires in total
10:16 AM skec: its hard to see in the picture, but the encoder (emitter and receiver) has 3 leads connected..
10:16 AM skec: and LinuxCNC in Etch example expects 2 leads to come from encoder
10:17 AM skec: if I have +5V, GND, and Signal, I assumed that GND and Signal shall go into parallel port..
10:19 AM Rab: skec, is that a quadrature encoder, or a simple optical pulse encoder? A quadrature encoder will typically have power, ground, and two outputs.
10:19 AM * rs[m]1 uploaded an image: image.png (12KiB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/r0/download/inframax.eu/QVlsyCaJKcqcLnKxhykeZqdZ/image.png >
10:20 AM rs[m]1: not sure if this works, i put a picture how i suppose this sensor looks like on the "inside"
10:20 AM rs[m]1: GND goes into the parallel port, but on the GND of the parallel port!
10:20 AM skec: Rab, it is a thing from dvd rom sledge
10:21 AM skec: I do not know if its simple or quadrature..
10:21 AM skec: thanks rs[m]1
10:21 AM rs[m]1: matrix irc bridge seems to work ;)
10:22 AM Rab: skec, the LinuxCNC example probably expects a quadrature encoder. If your sensor only has one signal output, the example will not work as expected.
10:22 AM skec: crap :(
10:23 AM Rab: There may be additional signals. Where are the other three pads connected on the board? I see one of them is lifted.
10:24 AM skec: there were 5 wires in total coming from that small chip: 2 wires goes into DC motor
10:24 AM skec: and another 3 goes into that light emmiter detector
10:24 AM Rab: skec, I mean the green PCB in the photo.
10:25 AM skec: the emitter and detector (that small plastic U shape piece) has 4 pins, 3 of them has tracks to leads
10:25 AM skec: yes, Rab, I am talking about green PCB
10:25 AM Rab: hmm
10:26 AM skec: and 1 pin of the U shaped thingy is just soldered to green PCB without going anywhere..
10:26 AM Rab: It seems like a 1-bit optical encoder, which will tell you movement and distance, but not direction like a quadrature encoder.
10:28 AM skunkworks: what do you want the encoder to do?
10:28 AM skec: But in this case, is it expected that in linuxcnc + and - still works?
10:28 AM skec: I mean I can spin the motor CW or CWW, depends on what I choose
10:29 AM skunkworks: is this a spindle application?
10:29 AM skec: skunkworks - its more like controlling the X axis sledge
10:29 AM skunkworks: you want to control a servo with it? closed loop?
10:29 AM skec: I would like to press +, and as long as I hold it, I would like the motor to spin
10:30 AM rs[m]1: skunkworks: skec wants to play with the etch a sketch demo from linuxcnc
10:30 AM skec: :)
10:31 AM skunkworks: hmm - I don't think you want to try something like that without quadature..
10:31 AM rs[m]1: skec: you could in theory fake the second signal from the motor direction
10:31 AM skunkworks: it will not be acurate and I don't know how it will react.
10:31 AM jymmmm: skunkworks: you paged the other day?
10:31 AM skunkworks: jymmmm: just saw you come on - said hi.
10:32 AM jymmmm: skunkworks: Hello :) Things been a bit chaotic around here on multiple fronts
10:33 AM skunkworks: linuxcnc will try to keep postion - if you fake a direction signal - you will have times when you think it is going cw - but it is actually going ccw. Think acc/decel
10:33 AM skec: I found this on youtube: https://youtu.be/TsLuxh2SbD4?t=272 it also shows encoder with 3 leads, ground, +5V and signal..dude says that he connected signal and ground to parallel port..this what I thought I was doing
10:35 AM unterhaus: I figured out why the gearbox on my lathe has problems, something is stuck in the apron
10:35 AM rs[m]1: skunkworks: it will probably begin to oscillate if you want it to keep position
10:35 AM unterhaus: not really looking forward to dropping the apron
10:35 AM skec: sorry, got disconnected..
10:37 AM skunkworks: skec: he is using a 2 channel encocer (a/b)
10:38 AM skec: but still connects ground to parallel port?
10:38 AM Rab: Can't believe I'm seeing this person cram "dupont" contacts onto d-sub pins.
10:39 AM skunkworks: Rab: whatever it takes ;0
10:39 AM skec: Rab, was it me?
10:39 AM rs[m]1: skec: you need to connect GND to GND of parallel port
10:39 AM Rab: skec, in the video.
10:41 AM skec: rs[m]1, pins 10 and 11 are not ground... if I connect GND to parport GND, I would only have 1 wire coming out of light gate
10:41 AM skec: Rab, honestly it was also me, who connected in the manner "whatever it takes" ..
10:41 AM rs[m]1: skec: circular reasoning won't help ;)
10:42 AM rs[m]1: skec: if you look at my picture from earlier, that is what your pcb looks like (more or less)
10:42 AM unterhaus: I feel like I missed something while I was disconnected
10:42 AM rs[m]1: skec: so you only have one signal
10:43 AM Rab: skec, the video is confusing because it does show a graphic of a single-channel encoder. But the motor is definitely using a 2-channel quadrature encoder, which is different from what you have.
10:43 AM rs[m]1: he is probably using 2 of those sensors appropriately spaced on one wheel
10:43 AM rs[m]1: like in an old-style mouse
10:43 AM skec: Rab, I was feeling that something is missing there... I tried to follow, but couldnot
10:44 AM rs[m]1: skec: try to get hold of an old mouse (those with the rolling ball) or a trackball and gut it
10:44 AM skec: rs[m]1, you are right
10:44 AM rs[m]1: skec: you could also use the wheel of a regular optical mouse, that is also quadrature
10:44 AM skec: it is possible to do that :)
10:45 AM skec: to sum up, linuxcnc managed to run it somehow even I connected everything wrong - thats a WIN :)
10:46 AM Rab: The explanation in the video is also wrong. I don't think the video author understands quadrature encoders either, and got lucky with the connections.
10:46 AM unterhaus: I guess Jon Elson is never on here
10:46 AM skec: I will not bother you anymore with things that are not impossible due to hardware limitations :)
10:47 AM skunkworks: skec: http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/Fastermouse.png
10:47 AM skunkworks: mouse guts into linuxcnc
10:47 AM skec: *possible
10:47 AM skec: skunkworks, maybe you have photo of hardware connections?
10:47 AM Rab: skec, it's no bother.
10:48 AM rs[m]1: skec: open the mouse, connect it to PC, and measure pinout of encoders
10:49 AM rs[m]1: supply and signal pins should be easy to find out with a multimeter
10:49 AM skec: :) great!
10:49 AM Rab: skec, here's a diagram of a quadrature encoder. You can ignore the Z channel, but notice how the A and B channels are out of phase: by tracking which pulse is leading, LinuxCNC can detect direction. https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/3-s2.0-B978012812138200009X-f09-04-9780128121382.jpg
10:50 AM skec: Rab, could I check this also on LinuxCNC using Hal Monitor?
10:50 AM skec: or Hal Osciloscope?
10:51 AM Rab: skec, yes. That's the picture skunkworks posted.
10:51 AM skec: in practice, I would need to connect things how I connected, open the osciloscope and spin the wheel?
10:51 AM Rab: You can also monitor the single-channel encoder you have. But it might not be usable for motion control.
10:52 AM Rab: skec, yes.
10:52 AM rs[m]1: skec: tie GND of parallel port, your +5V and of your sensor together
10:52 AM unterhaus: I seem to have lost track of the sheldon email list, or maybe it's just not active
10:52 AM skec: or shall I connect ground to ground, and then only 1 pin to INPUT in parport?
10:52 AM skec: yes! got it! thanks guys
10:52 AM rs[m]1: skec: the mouse will have 2 such sensors per axis
10:52 AM rs[m]1: skec: therefore 2 signals
10:55 AM skec: :) I started this all journey (trying to make small pen cnc from cd rom stepper motors) trying to gain some knowledge, which later hopefully will apply to more expensive stuff. I must say that linuxcnc community is great!
10:55 AM Rab: The motor and encoder are visible in closeup at the end of the video. It looks like it's from a cheap printer.
10:55 AM skec: In forum I always got response fast, also here in #linuxcnc
10:55 AM skec: thanks guys!
10:56 AM Rab: skec, sure!
10:57 AM skec: off to scavenge mouse and measure waves, cheers!
10:59 AM rs[m]1: happy trapping
11:08 AM roycroft: *sigh*
11:08 AM roycroft: another day, another brush fire
11:09 AM roycroft: unterhaus: i haven't seen a post on the sheldon lathe list in a couple years
11:10 AM roycroft: yahoo! dumped all their lists, then started hosting them again, but most of the former yahoo! lists either moved or disbanded
11:35 AM Rab: roycroft, a lot of Yahoo! machining groups moved to Groups.io. I see there's one for Sheldon lathes: https://groups.io/g/sheldonlathe
11:38 AM * JT-Cave wonders if Laura will make it here?
11:48 AM unterhaus: I was getting emails from the groups.io lists
11:48 AM unterhaus: maybe it's just not that active
11:51 AM unterhaus: huh, maybe I should join up again
11:51 AM unterhaus: not in spam and not in trash
11:52 AM skunkworks: I havn't been on the io groups.. After yahoo stopped - I just let it go
11:52 AM PropAGanda is now known as CaptHindsight
11:53 AM unterhaus: the sheldon group is pretty useful. Don't know if John Knox is still around, I talked to him on the phone a couple of times
11:53 AM unterhaus: he had some connection to sheldon
11:54 AM unterhaus: funny how much overlap with linuxcnc there was. Gene Hesket, Jon Elson
11:56 AM CaptHindsight: veegee: did you even have to use the gantry crane?
11:57 AM CaptHindsight: I noticed groups moving from yahoo to facebook and now to Discord
11:58 AM CaptHindsight: most if the Discord groups are marketing platforms disguised as a community help server
12:05 PM roycroft: a bunch of lists i'm on moved to groups.io and moved me with them without asking
12:05 PM roycroft: some of the lists said they were moving and asked me to resubscribe to stay on the list
12:05 PM roycroft: some just went away
12:05 PM roycroft: i know of none that went to facebook
12:08 PM unterhaus: there is a bicycle framebuilder group on FB that has over 28000 members
12:08 PM unterhaus: the number of people on there that have built a single frame can be counted in the hundreds
12:08 PM unterhaus: so much bad information and uninformed opinions on there
12:11 PM roycroft: we were having a conversation about this last night at dinner
12:13 PM roycroft: the easy ability for anyone to opine on anything online, combined with the lack of teaching critical thinking skills in schools these days have contributed greatly to misinformed opinions and have helped give rise to conspiracy theories
12:14 PM roycroft: we've gone from faith based truths to evidence based truths, and are swinging back to faith based truths, as some find factual information contrary to their preconceived notions of how the world should work
12:15 PM CaptHindsight: people on facebook actually want to chat using its messenger, pretty awful
12:16 PM CaptHindsight: it's was similar with reprap
12:17 PM TurBoss: long live IRC
12:17 PM CaptHindsight: a bunch of know-it-all know nothings arguing over cnc glue guns revolutionizing manufacturing
12:18 PM CaptHindsight: I get how Discord lets you share pics and videos or you can voice chat
12:19 PM CaptHindsight: Discord just plays the video inline with chat vs having to open a browser, not a big deal
12:19 PM CaptHindsight: but for gaming the voice chat is handy
12:19 PM CaptHindsight: I really don't need voice chat to discuss LCNC issues
12:20 PM TurBoss: I use element.io has a irc bridge mode where you can login with your irc account and allows pic uploads but calls isn't much good
12:21 PM TurBoss: keeps your nick online while you close the client so you dont lost chat history
12:21 PM TurBoss: and allows multiple logins
12:22 PM TurBoss: from difrenet device </offtipic>
12:22 PM Tom_L: just make it an on going conference call
12:23 PM CaptHindsight: start the channel or server with a generic name for a topic say "Resin Printers" ...
12:23 PM CaptHindsight: then you market your boards and other parts
12:23 PM CaptHindsight: and when someone brings up competing solutions you ban them
12:24 PM TurBoss: nice
12:24 PM TurBoss: lol
12:24 PM Tom_L: isn't any different than any other media really
12:24 PM CaptHindsight: marketing platform where you control the discussions
12:24 PM Tom_L: absolutely!
12:25 PM CaptHindsight: and get free community help
12:25 PM CaptHindsight: to make your product
12:25 PM Tom_L: i was told not to log reprap for fear what their bosses would say about their conversations
12:26 PM JT-Shop: lol
12:26 PM CaptHindsight: if Germans are involved they don't want logs since it violates their privacy in Germany
12:26 PM Tom_L: i told them to f off and left
12:27 PM CaptHindsight: yup still the message at #coreboot
12:28 PM CaptHindsight: well they loosened up a bit: Please do NOT share logs of this channel!
12:29 PM roycroft: i don't like the idea of logging channels, but i always assume that it's being done
12:29 PM roycroft: it would be foolish not to assume that
12:30 PM Tom_L: some love it, some hate it. you'll never please everyone
12:30 PM rs[m]1: i think it is safe to assume that every major IRC hub is ingested in full by five eyes
12:31 PM rs[m]1: *traffic
12:34 PM roycroft: i've never made an issue of it, here or elsewhere
12:39 PM unterhaus: as long as the loggers don't make the channel lag, I'm okay with it
12:40 PM CaptHindsight: i just use logs to see what people say about me when I'm not here
12:43 PM roycroft: again, i've never made an issue of it and i'm not going to
12:44 PM roycroft: i expressed my general dislike of channel logging, and my assumption that everything is logged everywhere
12:44 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: you have fires nearby?
12:44 PM roycroft: yes
12:44 PM roycroft: i drove right next to one yesterday right here in town
12:45 PM roycroft: and there were at least three others here yesterday that i know of
12:45 PM roycroft: and one so far this morning
12:45 PM roycroft: all small grass fires
12:45 PM roycroft: but the air has been smokey since yesterday
12:45 PM CaptHindsight: when does rain arrive?
12:45 PM roycroft: next month
12:45 PM roycroft: probably mid month
12:45 PM roycroft: the forecast for the first week of september calls for highs in the mid 30s again, so it's going to warm up even more
12:46 PM CaptHindsight: we had a week or two of 25C (70's F) and now been back to 90F-ish (>30C)
12:46 PM CaptHindsight: been warm and humid at night as well
12:48 PM roycroft: we also don't have enough firefighters
12:48 PM roycroft: there are several really large fires burning in oregon, and we've already sent hundreds of firefighters to california, who really can't come back yet
12:49 PM roycroft: the grass fires can be handled by local fire departments, of course
12:49 PM roycroft: but when there's four of them simultaneously that stretches the local resources
12:50 PM roycroft: all of yesterday's fires were right by busy roads, btw, so some, at least, were likely the result of tossing cigarette butts
12:50 PM roycroft: because believe it or not, that's still a thing
12:50 PM CaptHindsight: we never get forest fires, even controlled burns snuff themselves out
12:51 PM CaptHindsight: small town protests and riots 1 hour drive
12:52 PM roycroft: i guess that should not be too surprising - in this day and age, anyone who is stupid enough to smoke is stupid enough to toss their lit butts and start fires
12:52 PM roycroft: we haven't had any real rain since june
12:53 PM roycroft: this is typical for here
12:53 PM roycroft: although the heat has been getting greater over the past few years
12:53 PM CaptHindsight: the factory across the street has a 10 x 10 ft outdoor smoking area
12:54 PM CaptHindsight: the employees must take smoke shifts since 24/7 there is always someone out there
12:59 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_(TV_series)
01:00 PM CaptHindsight: what schools and the media don't make, connections
01:01 PM CaptHindsight: i would say the people in Asia are any smarted or dumber than in the west but they do see themselves as more of a group than as individuals
01:02 PM CaptHindsight: sorry wouldn't say
01:02 PM CaptHindsight: more connected to others around them
01:03 PM CaptHindsight: so they tend to see what they do as having an effect on those around them
01:03 PM CaptHindsight: it's a generalization since China poops on everyone
01:04 PM CaptHindsight: I'd see far fewer buts on the ground in most eastern countries
01:06 PM roycroft: i love that show
01:06 PM roycroft: i watched it when it first came out, and i have all episodes on my media server
01:07 PM roycroft: james burke is a great presenter
01:10 PM CaptHindsight: contrast a show like that to the RNC or even DNC
01:10 PM roycroft: the dnc dealt with the real world, but from a particular perspective
01:10 PM roycroft: the rnc is pure fantasyland
01:11 PM roycroft: and it is self-contradicting
01:11 PM roycroft: neither of them are worth wasting any time on
01:13 PM CaptHindsight: just making a contrast, no further discussion required :)
01:14 PM roycroft: i am so so so so so so so so so burned out on what politics has degenerated to
01:15 PM roycroft: it's no longer a means to effect change for the better
01:16 PM CaptHindsight: no politics required
01:16 PM roycroft: but shows like connections are above all that :)
01:17 PM Rab: The Clausing Yahoo! group migrated to Groups.io not long ago, and I prefer it considerably so far.
01:17 PM CaptHindsight: i haven't been out much from last fall until just recently and it's shocking
01:17 PM CaptHindsight: just running into people that i used to see
01:17 PM CaptHindsight: lack of anything coherent to say
01:18 PM CaptHindsight: memories that might only go back a few months or a year
01:19 PM CaptHindsight: they don't know how anything works or how we got here, it is just like idiocracy
01:19 PM Rab: Auto-migrating people to different mailing list providers can be construed as kinda uncool, but the type of people on these lists seem really old and not too computer-savvy...it might be a kindness for many.
01:19 PM CaptHindsight: Rab: trade-offs
01:20 PM CaptHindsight: it's not like you're redirecting their SS payments
01:22 PM CaptHindsight: just don't automagically set up a facebook account for me
01:23 PM Rab: If I understand correctly, Facebook has already done that behind the scenes.
01:25 PM CaptHindsight: pretty much
01:26 PM roycroft: i would not be surprised if facebook have a bunch of information about me, even though i avoid them like the plague
01:26 PM roycroft: in fact, i work harder to avoid facebook than to avoid the plague
01:26 PM Rab: haha
01:28 PM roycroft: so i have a nice kennedy rolling tool cart and the standard 13 drawer upper toolbox (with the handbook drawer)
01:28 PM CaptHindsight: same for Amazon, we were getting some other persons packages
01:28 PM roycroft: i never got an intermediate box for it though - i've been using one from a homak set that i bought a long long time ago
01:29 PM roycroft: i need to put that intermediate box back on the homak now
01:29 PM roycroft: i was going to get a kennedy, but i would rather not pay $400 for one
01:29 PM CaptHindsight: i finally called amazon to let them know since knocking on neighbors doors didn't turn up anything
01:29 PM roycroft: and i saw they have a riser available, which might be nice
01:30 PM roycroft: as in this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/273917806439
01:30 PM roycroft: i wonder if that's really a useful thing to have
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: Amazon said to keep everything and it was an internal shipping error
01:30 PM roycroft: currently, i store files and rasps in the homak intermediate chest
01:30 PM roycroft: and i always have stuff in front of it, so have to move things to open the bottom drawer
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: more drawers
01:31 PM roycroft: a riser might be nice for the stuff that i currently pile up in front of the drawers
01:31 PM CaptHindsight: I ahve risers and stuff still piles up
01:33 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/K/333403980062
01:33 PM roycroft: more drawers costs a lot more money
01:34 PM roycroft: and in the bottom cart i currently store drills and the like in three of the drawers
01:34 PM roycroft: i'm going to build a cabinet for that stuff that will nest into my drill press, so i'll clear out three drawers
01:34 PM roycroft: plus, as i said, i currently store files and rasps in the intermediate chest
01:34 PM roycroft: and i'd like to hang them on a wall instead
01:35 PM roycroft: so with the changes i'm making i'll actually have a lot of room available in the current setup
01:35 PM roycroft: i guess i'll figure out if that riser would work well for me or not
01:35 PM roycroft: it seems like it would be useful
01:36 PM roycroft: but there's also the danger of my cramming a bunch of stuff in it and creating a big mess
01:36 PM CaptHindsight: Zoro (grainger) lists Buffalo Grove Il as their location yet takes days to get anything to me 45 min away
01:36 PM roycroft: anyway, it's lunch time, so i shall head out to the shop for an hour
02:02 PM CaptHindsight: i wonder how many applications there are for a 3d plasma cutter vs 2.5d
02:03 PM CaptHindsight: cut notches in tubing after they are bent
02:04 PM CaptHindsight: oh robot, go to car tube frame and make me some notches...
02:04 PM CaptHindsight: nachos ready sir
02:13 PM Rab: Nacho grandpa's plasma cutter
02:36 PM roycroft: i think that riser will work nicely for me, and if i'm wrong, it's not a huge investment
02:36 PM roycroft: i also really don't need it for a while, but there's a 3 week lead time from zoro
02:36 PM roycroft: and they are by far the least expensive source
02:37 PM roycroft: i find myself setting a lot of tools/measuring devices/parts/etc on my mill stand while i'm working, and they get covered in swarf
02:37 PM roycroft: having that storage area under the riser would be really nice for that stuff - the kennedy is right next to the mill, so it's within easy reach while i'm working
02:40 PM CaptHindsight: giant Wolf spider on wall next to me
02:53 PM JT-Shop: crap, I quit for the day just knocked the freaking head out of tram...
02:54 PM roycroft: sounds like a good time to walk away
02:54 PM * JT-Shop is watching chicken TV
03:07 PM huibuuh: someone here able to compile on linux mint 20?
03:10 PM CaptHindsight: huibuuh: what is the problem?
03:15 PM huibuuh: python
03:15 PM huibuuh: I've been wrestling with it for hours now and it always breaks at some point because some module doesn't work for python or it can't find boost python etc.
03:16 PM Deejay: gn8
03:57 PM huibuuh: lol, so much easier to just quickly set up a debian VM and then build there, no pain at all.
03:57 PM huibuuh: why didn't I do that from the start o.O
03:57 PM huibuuh: ls
04:13 PM jymmmm: JT-Shop PlutoTV has a 24hr cat and a dog channel, why not a chicken channel? you could live stream!!! Maybe even get them to sponsor REAL internet for you too!!!
04:13 PM JT-Shop: there is no REAL internet out in the woods
04:15 PM XXCoder: soon maybe
04:16 PM XXCoder: what with new space program for internet connectivity
04:17 PM roycroft: the latency of satellite internet is intolerable
04:18 PM XXCoder: depends on suercase
04:18 PM XXCoder: i dont think jt plays games?
04:18 PM XXCoder: *usercase
04:18 PM roycroft: anything interactive at all
04:18 PM JT-Shop: it tolerable if that's your only choice...
04:19 PM roycroft: grr
04:19 PM roycroft: i may have to avoid teh you tube for the next two months
04:19 PM roycroft: it seems all the ads are political now, and can't be skipped
04:19 PM XXCoder: heh
04:20 PM XXCoder: ublocker blocks youtube ads
04:20 PM XXCoder: note some sites will complain about it
04:20 PM roycroft: i used to just download anything i wanted to watch on youtue
04:20 PM roycroft: but then i'd have to delete it in most cases
04:20 PM roycroft: i found it easier to just tolerate the ads
04:20 PM Tom_L: they won
04:21 PM * JT-Shop just uses the DVR and FF through the ads
04:22 PM Tom_L: i don't watch anything until i've buffered enough to do that
04:22 PM roycroft: they won before the battle began
04:22 PM jymmmm: AT&T prem tech just told me they actually ran fiber to a guy's house, but he had to pay for the whole thing.
04:24 PM Tom_L: and here i thought my trackball was going bad
04:24 PM Tom_L: popped the ball out and it was full of lint
04:25 PM jymmmm: Tom_L: Have you checked your bellybutton?
04:25 PM Tom_L: the ball didn't work there either
04:25 PM jymmmm: ah ok, just checking
04:38 PM roycroft: hmm
04:38 PM roycroft: i have more than 100 hours into my workbench project so far this month
04:38 PM jymmmm: Ok, would you rather have 12.0VDC or a 13.8VDC power supply?
04:38 PM roycroft: and probably 20 more before the month is over
04:38 PM roycroft: that's almost full-time
04:39 PM roycroft: no wonder this month has flown by, and no wonder i'm so tired
04:51 PM * JT-Shop can't wait to see roycroft bench
04:55 PM jymmmm: Somewhere in this vast wilderness that I call a shop, there is a beautiful pair of brand new, heavy duty banana binding posts. Finding them is another story
04:55 PM XXCoder: just call it and it'll rong
04:55 PM XXCoder: *ring
04:55 PM jymmmm: I dont have it's number
04:56 PM XXCoder: oh. oh well sorry man
04:56 PM jymmmm: nice try though
05:02 PM * JT-Shop defers finishing up the modifications till tomorrow
05:05 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, how's that antique machine mod coming along?
05:07 PM JT-Shop: getting close to being able to run in semi auto
05:52 PM JohnS_AZ: Well that disconnect is annoying. Guessing if you're quiet too long it dumps you?
05:55 PM * roycroft sometimes idles for days on end without getting disconnected
06:00 PM CaptHindsight: jymmmm: starlink ping times look like home cable internet times
06:00 PM JohnS_AZ: Ah, so it just doesn't like ME. (hehe)
06:04 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: what is the lag like?
06:04 PM jymmmm: latency*
06:10 PM unreal is now known as Guest94195
06:11 PM CaptHindsight: 10-20ms of latency
06:12 PM CaptHindsight: jymmmm: https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/08/spacex-starlink-beta-tests-show-speeds-up-to-60mbps-latency-as-low-as-31ms/
06:17 PM jymmmm: 31mS is impressive
06:26 PM Guest94195 is now known as _unreal_
06:45 PM snakedLX is now known as snaked
06:59 PM _unreal_: so I finished my aluminum part for my drill press. works amazing
07:00 PM _unreal_: only thing I need to do now is extend the thread. its to short
07:00 PM _unreal_: will be nice to be able to mill thing now
07:01 PM _unreal_: before I could not milling because I'd have to hold the damn z handle OR bring the working deck up to height
07:01 PM _unreal_: not now :)
07:02 PM _unreal_: damn nab it
07:02 PM _unreal_: just realized I have the @#$@#$ key to one of the boats
07:04 PM Tom_L: take it for a spin
07:08 PM jymmmm: IS today a US holiday or something?
07:08 PM roycroft: no
07:08 PM Tom_L: not for me
07:08 PM roycroft: we have no holidays in august
07:08 PM jymmmm: hmm, ok, thanks
07:08 PM roycroft: nor did canadia, until they invented one when they discovered it was the only month of the year without a holiday
07:09 PM * roycroft is about ready to do the first bit of final assembly on his bench
07:14 PM jymmmm: If you had a choice in a fixed PS.... 12VDC or 13.8VDC ?
07:16 PM CaptHindsight: jymmmm: depends if i need 12V or 13.8V
07:16 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: choose one
07:17 PM CaptHindsight: 13.8v for cars, 12V for everything else
07:17 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: choose one
07:17 PM CaptHindsight: yes
07:18 PM jymmmm: just pick one please
07:19 PM CaptHindsight: make me
07:20 PM CaptHindsight: i would kindly ask you to pick one and I'll take the remainder
07:43 PM roycroft: so the right side of my workbench base is assembled now, and it's about 0.25mm out of square
07:43 PM roycroft: which i find acceptable
07:44 PM roycroft: and probably within the margin of error of my eyeballs
07:45 PM roycroft: the drifts that i modified for installing the draw pegs worked brilliantly
07:46 PM roycroft: not only did i not break any of the pegs, installing the wasn't even precarious, even though i had a significant offset
07:47 PM roycroft: and i used walnut pegs, which aren't particuarly strong (although more than strong enough to hold the parts once installed), but offer a really nice contrast to the ash
07:47 PM roycroft: plus, there are other walnut pieces in the bench, so it kind of ties things together
07:48 PM roycroft: literally and aesthetically
09:49 PM CaptHindsight: https://imgur.com/gallery/YBvP9bf hobbing
09:51 PM veegee: love it ^
09:51 PM veegee: Random unrelated question: any suggestions on a particular brand/model for a plain old adjustable wrench?
09:52 PM veegee: Looking for something that has the least amount of play
09:52 PM veegee: Think of precision dovetails. Ideally that's what I want in an adjustable wrench. But the big box store ones have so much slop.
09:52 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: Hubbing https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Hubbing
09:53 PM veegee: The channellock ones are surprisingly good: https://www.channellock.com/product/804s/
09:54 PM veegee: Doesn't have to be slim jaw, but that's just the one I happen to have. That model does claim "precision machined jaws" for whatever that's worth, but it definitely is way better than any other I've used so far
10:03 PM CaptHindsight: someone should combine them with a vise grip
10:03 PM CaptHindsight: spring load the screw maybe
10:06 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.amazon.com/Logger-Tools-BW8-01R-01-Bionic-Adjustable/dp/B000BYSMCS
10:06 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/Powerbuilt-2-Piece-Spring-Loaded-Auto-Size-Adjusting-Crowfoot-Wrench-Set-240274/30693540/product.html
10:07 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.qvc.com/Magic-Wrench-Tools-Self-Adjusting-DIY-Wrench.product.V36927.html
10:10 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: you forgot "gator grip"
10:11 PM CaptHindsight: i think I broke one of those
10:13 PM jymmmm: heh
10:14 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.protoolreviews.com/tools/hand/drivers-wrenches/auto-wrench-black-decker/851/
10:14 PM roycroft: most of my adjustable wrenches are crescent brand, in a black oxide finish
10:14 PM roycroft: they work quite well
10:14 PM CaptHindsight: if this can keep some pressure on the screw it would help
10:14 PM CaptHindsight: but I thinks it's more gimmick than helpful
10:14 PM roycroft: my bigger ones (18", 24", 36") are generic chinese made ones
10:15 PM roycroft: i don't use the big ones much, and they don't need as precise a movement as smaller ones, so i'm fine with what i have
10:15 PM CaptHindsight: mine are Craftsman from <1980
10:15 PM roycroft: so probably made by crescent
10:15 PM roycroft: some of mine are that old
10:16 PM roycroft: i started buying tools in the '70s, and i still have most of the decent quality ones i bought back then
10:17 PM CaptHindsight: I inherited some older stuff that they just tell me to find a best match for when i return them
10:17 PM CaptHindsight: big screw drivers mostly
10:18 PM roycroft: i've always taken good care of my tools, and i've never loaned my good tools out - i actually have a set of cheap tools that i keep just for loaners
10:19 PM CaptHindsight: something gets sacrificed every now and then
10:19 PM roycroft: sure
10:19 PM CaptHindsight: usually after midnight and I'm getting done today, not tomorrow
10:19 PM jymmmm: The last time I loaned a tool, 3/8 rachet, I never got it back.
10:19 PM roycroft: when i know i'm going to need to abuse a tool, whenever possible i go buy a cheap one to abuse instead of abusing one of my good ones
10:20 PM jymmmm: I abuse the good ones, then go get them replaced under lifetime warranty
10:20 PM CaptHindsight: the worst tends to be rusty nuts that have shrunk
10:20 PM CaptHindsight: and the next smaller down wrench is just too small
10:21 PM jymmmm: use the Momma wrench
10:21 PM jymmmm: What is best to drill PCB, low or high speed?
10:22 PM CaptHindsight: Sunday 5pm and someone comes over with the car that just made it here
10:23 PM CaptHindsight: fiberglass epoxy boards with small holes?
10:23 PM roycroft: most holes in pcbs are small, so high speed
10:23 PM jymmmm: 8/32" holes
10:23 PM jymmmm: right thru the gold plated cladding
10:24 PM CaptHindsight: I'd use 1/4"
10:24 PM jymmmm: too big
10:24 PM roycroft: 8/32" = 1/4"
10:24 PM jymmmm: is it?
10:25 PM roycroft: it is
10:25 PM CaptHindsight: why it's funny
10:25 PM roycroft: 32/8=4
10:25 PM jymmmm: Fuck, let me grab the calipers
10:25 PM * roycroft sends jymmmm back to the second grade :)
10:26 PM jymmmm: Well, fuck me, I'll need to use a smaller bolt than, the entire trace is only 1/4" wide
10:27 PM CaptHindsight: maybe it's 2/8"?
10:27 PM CaptHindsight: 4/16" should also work
10:28 PM jymmmm: maybe a #8
10:28 PM roycroft: i'd go really small and use a 32/128" drill
10:28 PM CaptHindsight: jymmmm: putting a bolt through a trace?
10:28 PM jymmmm: yes
10:29 PM CaptHindsight: and you want the trace to not get broken?
10:29 PM jymmmm: yep
10:29 PM CaptHindsight: ah
10:29 PM CaptHindsight: copper bolt or steel?
10:29 PM roycroft: a #8 screw wants a no. 18 drill for a close fit clearance hole, which is 0.1695" in diameter
10:30 PM roycroft: if you're careful you can drill that within a 0.25" trace
10:30 PM CaptHindsight: i think he's making some sort of bus
10:31 PM CaptHindsight: or at least wants the 1/4" trace to continue to carry current past the bolt without relying on the bolt as a conductor
10:31 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/MQwuC1_SIbE?t=206
10:33 PM CaptHindsight: jymmmm: i would beef up the copper
10:34 PM CaptHindsight: if you can add some copper strip and then drill and clamp the strip to the PCB
10:34 PM veegee: CaptHindsight this is my favourite: http://www.pearlway.com/video_detail.php?NNo=19
10:35 PM veegee: makes installing things like pipe fittings very fast because you can only use an open ended wrench
10:36 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: for strength?
10:36 PM CaptHindsight: jymmmm: to be sure you are conducting high current well
10:36 PM CaptHindsight: little voltage drop
10:37 PM jymmmm: Well, the bolt should be able to get top and bottom traces (they are parralel)
10:37 PM jymmmm: and the PS is already rated for 65A
10:40 PM CaptHindsight: my stuff works because I do things like this, you are free to just drill a hole and use zinc plated nuts and bolts
10:41 PM jymmmm: If I find some copper I will
10:42 PM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/MQwuC1_SIbE?t=134 it's a pretty solid power plane for + and -, my way further guarantees good contact as well as low resistance
10:43 PM jymmmm: CaptHindsight: I get it, I just have to get/find copper bar
11:12 PM veegee: CaptHindsight https://www.amazon.ca/Vestil-VHMS-15-Swivel-Machine-Capacity/dp/B0052PWAOM/ what do they mean by "Rollers revolve around center load bearing plate in frame to provide maximum maneuverability"
11:13 PM veegee: I mean obviously it has a rotating top plate
11:13 PM veegee: But what are they talking about when they say "rollers revolve around" it?
11:14 PM veegee: I'm trying to figure out if I should spend that much for one of those or get a much cheaper one for 1/3 the price
11:17 PM CaptHindsight: the rollers might be on a track
11:19 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.kennards.com.au/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/0/1001100_skate_100t_track_1.jpg
11:25 PM CaptHindsight: veegee: https://youtu.be/n7M-sBQ_tNo?t=172 roller chain