#linuxcnc Logs

Aug 25 2020

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:24 AM XXCoder: https://i.imgur.com/QkgHULQ.jpg lol
12:53 AM Deejay: moin
03:46 AM * Loetmichel sometimes wonders if he has "Wikipedia" tatooed on his forehead... coworker just asked:" hey, my steering wheel flutters when braking lately, and the car has no power and the DSC light is on. Whats wrong there?" [explaining mode] Brakes.. heat.. bent.. ABS sensors.. DSC fail to safe side.. [/explain mode] ... why me? we have enough other people with even if not more knowledge about
03:46 AM * Loetmichel cars?
04:49 AM JT-Cave: morning
04:50 AM XXCoder: yo
05:19 AM JT-Cave: I finally gave up on using a hex value to control the intensity of the dotstar led and just used some if statement
05:20 AM XXCoder: what didnt work? what is code line and what is result and expected result
05:20 AM JT-Cave: I need to add a 1000µF (6.3V or higher) capacitor to the power wires as I think it's causing an issue
05:21 AM XXCoder: to cover microdips of power?
05:21 AM JT-Cave: well there is no documentation on what it needs as far a a hex number I did short out that 0x010101 will turn on all 3 leds at the lowest level and 0xffffff all leds fully bright
05:22 AM JT-Cave: https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-dotstar-leds/power-and-connections
05:22 AM JT-Cave: I get random lights not defined in the string to light up as I raise the few I'm testing
05:22 AM XXCoder: wouldnt it be something like setcolor << rByte << gByte << bByte; ?
05:23 AM XXCoder: then send that data
05:23 AM JT-Cave: dunno, I'll have to see what that does
05:23 AM XXCoder: erm int I mean as would need 16 bits lol
05:23 AM JT-Cave: << is what?
05:23 AM XXCoder: bit shifting
05:23 AM JT-Cave: ah cool
05:23 AM XXCoder: https://www.tutorialspoint.com/cprogramming/c_bitwise_operators.htm
05:24 AM XXCoder: oops i did shift op wrong but it depends on language heh
05:24 AM XXCoder: some dont even support it
05:25 AM XXCoder: okay colorset = rInt << 16 + gInt << 8 + bInt
05:26 AM XXCoder: maybe need ( ) as i forgot what op would be done first
05:29 AM JT-Cave: c = 1 << 16 + 1 << 8 + 1
05:29 AM JT-Cave: >>> c
05:29 AM JT-Cave: 67108864
05:29 AM JT-Cave: that's way too big...
05:30 AM XXCoder: that need to be converted to hex display
05:30 AM JT-Cave: hex(c)
05:30 AM JT-Cave: '0x4000000'
05:30 AM XXCoder: looks like op order error
05:30 AM JT-Cave: should be 0x010101
05:31 AM XXCoder: c = (1 << 16) + (1 << 8) + 1
05:32 AM JT-Cave: wow that works! thanks
05:32 AM XXCoder: no problem!
05:32 AM XXCoder: shift op is very powerful
05:32 AM XXCoder: want kill first 4 bits? just shift left by 4 then back 4 right
05:32 AM XXCoder: you could use and actually but yeah
05:33 AM XXCoder: its amazing on sperating and combining int that has bunch of values too
05:33 AM XXCoder: ie if you want G, just AND with 0xooffoo then shift right by 8
05:41 AM * JT-Cave is going to have to study bit shifting a bit
05:43 AM XXCoder: its pretty cool
05:55 AM skec: Hi guys, does anyone have experience with BLDC motor (3 phase motor, found in dvd rom)? I would like to ask how to setup configuration files (hal) using loadrt bldc cfg
05:56 AM skec: perhaps also could share your hal file?
05:57 AM XXCoder: hey unfoetunately cant help but someone might know
05:57 AM skec: on linuxcnc forum tonny suggested to use stepgen type 3, however, I am not able to run motor with it..
06:15 AM Tom_L: morning
06:27 AM Tom_L: JT-Cave, you can also #define RED somevalue then << RED
06:28 AM XXCoder: yep avoid magic numbers
06:29 AM Tom_L: then you can keep them in a 'color.h file
06:30 AM Tom_L: and #include it in your c
06:30 AM XXCoder: think some library has such
06:30 AM XXCoder: but honestly think his program is very small. no reason to go behind single c'
06:30 AM Tom_L: just showing good habits
06:30 AM XXCoder: oh agreed but yeah
06:30 AM JT-Cave: the 3 LED's are all white in each one
06:31 AM JT-Cave: but I do have a rgb string as well
06:32 AM JT-Cave: I'm trying to simulate sunrise and sunset by increasing the intensity of each led in the string by 1 over some duration that equals the time from dawn to sunrise and sunset to dusk
06:34 AM JT-Cave: the dotstar can either be set with a tuple with rgb like s[0] = (1,2,3)
06:34 AM JT-Cave: or with a hex number like 0x010101
06:34 AM JT-Cave: also it's python not c
06:35 AM XXCoder: yeah though most times languages has similiar ops
06:36 AM XXCoder: << >> is pretty common though slightly less so than basic math ops
06:36 AM Tom_L: there's the problem! :)
06:40 AM JT-Cave: so if I do c = (1 << 16) + (1 << 8) + 1 how do I get the value of each one back
06:41 AM XXCoder: oh just do r = r >> 16
06:41 AM XXCoder: g = g >> 8
06:41 AM XXCoder: that will revert values
06:42 AM XXCoder: not sure if r >> 16l is valid python as that is faster due to not having to do an assign to variable
06:42 AM XXCoder: r >> 16;
06:42 AM JT-Cave: >>> r = c >> 16
06:42 AM JT-Cave: >>> r
06:42 AM JT-Cave: 0
06:43 AM XXCoder: nah dont need to use c at all
06:43 AM XXCoder: in fact i think r is still same value
06:43 AM JT-Cave: >>> c << 8 >> 8
06:43 AM JT-Cave: 1
06:43 AM JT-Cave: c << 16 >> 16
06:43 AM XXCoder: that works
06:43 AM JT-Cave: 1
06:44 AM JT-Cave: >>> c = (1 << 16) + (2 << 8) + 3
06:44 AM JT-Cave: >>> c << 8 >> 8
06:44 AM JT-Cave: 66051
06:44 AM JT-Cave: >>> c << 16 >> 16
06:44 AM JT-Cave: 66051
06:44 AM JT-Cave: opps
06:45 AM robotustra: usually proggramers do c = (1 << 16) | (2 << 8) | 3
06:45 AM XXCoder: ah yes forgot or
06:45 AM XXCoder: faster op too
06:46 AM XXCoder: jt I ned to see entire section to see what youre doing heh
06:46 AM JT-Cave: I need to work on it a bit
06:47 AM XXCoder: im kinda puzzled on why you even need to extract values
06:47 AM XXCoder: r g and b should not be altered at all
06:47 AM JT-Cave: to display the light level of r g and b
06:47 AM XXCoder: yeah r g and b still would work fine
06:49 AM XXCoder: r = 1; c = (r << 16) | (1 << 8 ) | 1; >>> r
06:49 AM XXCoder: try that
06:49 AM XXCoder: r should be still 1
06:52 AM JT-Cave: syntax error
06:53 AM XXCoder: you need to turn that to 3 lines
06:53 AM JT-Cave: oh
06:53 AM XXCoder: oh wait python dont use ;?
06:53 AM JT-Cave: no
06:53 AM XXCoder: been quite a while. yeah turn ; to new line heh
07:09 AM XXCoder: JT-Cave: was I correct on assumation?
07:10 AM JT-Cave: >>> r is an error
07:11 AM XXCoder: odd. i cant really troubleshoot without seeing rest of code lol
07:11 AM JT-Cave: I'm just doing it in a terminal
07:11 AM JT-Cave: if your on linux open a terminal and python3
07:13 AM XXCoder: ah yea a second
07:13 AM XXCoder: >>> dont work the way I expect
07:15 AM XXCoder: oh
07:15 AM XXCoder: thats just a prompot
07:16 AM XXCoder: yeah r dont change value after bitshifting code
07:16 AM XXCoder: >>> r = 10 ; c = (r << 16) | (1 << 8 ) | 1;
07:16 AM XXCoder: >>> r
07:16 AM XXCoder: 10
07:16 AM XXCoder: >>> c
07:16 AM XXCoder: 655617
07:17 AM satiowadahc: I was gonna say. >> << are bit shift operators >>> Is usually documentation of somekind
07:17 AM satiowadahc: Huh this doesn't work again?
07:17 AM XXCoder: https://dpaste.com/CK2DJQ89G
07:18 AM XXCoder: JT-Cave: notice all r g and b still retain same value after calculation for c
07:19 AM satiowadahc: you bit shift r into c?
07:19 AM XXCoder: nah
07:19 AM XXCoder: well yes it turns into temp value then or'd toget with g and b
07:19 AM XXCoder: then its assigned to c
07:20 AM satiowadahc: (I don't think I understand hexchat right, its giving me errors everytime I send but assuming you can see this?)
07:21 AM XXCoder: oops didnt change second and third to g and b for dpaste one lol
07:22 AM XXCoder: heres corrected one https://dpaste.com/5YCALSEE6
07:22 AM satiowadahc: https://dpaste.com/AFVB56HWD
07:23 AM XXCoder: lol
07:23 AM XXCoder: thats because you moved bit to right
07:23 AM XXCoder: that sets it to 0
07:23 AM XXCoder: left shift it stays at 0
07:24 AM XXCoder: no 2 is correct
07:24 AM XXCoder: but no idea why it is 32 after lol
07:24 AM XXCoder: wait no r was not affected
07:24 AM XXCoder: so 8 << 2 is 32 which is correct
07:25 AM XXCoder: sorry VERY dizzy which makes logical thinking hard
07:25 AM satiowadahc: its converting binary right so 0010 is 2 0100 is 4
07:25 AM JT-Cave: XXCoder, your example works on the led string
07:25 AM XXCoder: yeah its strightforward JT-Cave sorry for confusing some stuff with my own stupid errors due to muddled thinking
07:26 AM JT-Cave: https://dpaste.com/EWFRUQH8N
07:27 AM XXCoder: hm
07:27 AM JT-Cave: time to clean chicken poop
07:27 AM XXCoder: try s[0] = {r, g, b} if I remember array assignment
07:29 AM JT-Cave: s[0] = (r, g, b)
07:30 AM XXCoder: i dont remember how to create array inb python lol
07:30 AM JT-Cave: that method is easier to understand than using bits lol
07:30 AM XXCoder: i suppose, but meh heh
07:30 AM JT-Cave: you have to pass dotstar a list not an array
07:31 AM XXCoder: i suppose, but meh heh
09:09 AM Loetmichel: MAAAN, what did i do to deserve this? Made 6 nice aluminium enclosures with 2 part side walls... assembled them, sent them away to get powder coated... got them back, just noticed: the two halves are mounted "flipped"... MAAAN cant i ONCE get definitive documentation from the customer??? *sigh* *dismantle* scratch the powder coating out of the seam... flip... reassemble... (calm down) :-(
09:12 AM robotustra: shit happens
09:13 AM Loetmichel: every time?
09:16 AM robotustra: sometimes
09:20 AM Loetmichel: indeed. here its more like every f****ing time!
09:30 AM JT-Cave: some people are just lucky...
10:04 AM skunkworks: Jymmm: !
10:08 AM Jymmm: skunkworks: hello
10:59 AM Thorhian_: I have been looking last night and this morning but I can't seem to find a clear guide on how to manually adjust dirstep, dirhold, steplen, stepspace, and step_scale. I apparently don't know what I'm doing based on the warnings im getting in Linuxcnc
11:13 AM Thorhian_: I calculated the step_scale to be 8000 steps per mm, since my driver at max microstepping turns the motor rotor 1 revolution per 40K steps. One rev will turn the ballscrew 5mm, so 40K divided by 5 should 8K steps?
11:14 AM Thorhian_: The problem is the other variables that I'm not too sure about.
11:14 AM Thorhian_: BTW, I'm using hardware stepping with a 7c81, so no software stepping to worry about.
11:14 AM robotustra: Why do you need 8000 steps per mm? what is the precision of your machine?
11:15 AM robotustra: 8000 steps per MM is a submicron resolution
11:15 AM Thorhian_: Not crazy precise, that's just the default setting on the drivers. Should I turn it down?
11:15 AM robotustra: I think yes
11:16 AM robotustra: because you can have a problem while pulsing the motor
11:16 AM robotustra: and decreasing max speed
11:17 AM robotustra: if your machine has physical resolution of 0.01mm there is no reason to put more than 200 steps per mm
11:17 AM robotustra: you can put 200, 400, 1000, but 8000 have no sense
11:18 AM Thorhian_: Ah okay, that makes sense.
11:19 AM Rab: Lower microstepping will increase torque, I believe. It's a tradeoff of precision vs power (and sometimes accuracy, since microsteps can have a less deterministic position than full-torque steps).
11:19 AM Thorhian_: I guess I was thinking in laymen's 3D printing terms where more microstepping = smoother/less noisy performance in a lot of cases. However, I'm dealing with a CNC mill that needs way more torque and drivers that can accept crap tons of steps per rev XD
11:22 AM robotustra: sure, there is a trade, but the noise and torque can be adjusted later on your taste. First it's better to start from physical condition which is the mechanical precision and rigidity of the machine itself
11:23 AM Thorhian_: I guess I could do some experimentation when the machine is fully built with the drivers. For now, I'm guessing 1000 steps per mm is fine (or less)?
11:24 AM Thorhian_: Thanks robotustra, Rab. I'll go adjust the stepper drivers and tone them way down. Then I'll figure out the other variables.
11:31 AM rs[m]1: Rab: microstepping decreases torque available from one microstep to the next, but overall, torque is not (really) be reduced (depending on driver and motor). microstep-positions between full steps will suffer from some non-linearities, so while higher microsteps increase resolution, they don't really increase accuracy after some point.
11:31 AM rs[m]1: IIRC the geckodrive FAQ says 10 microsteps is the swwet spot, typical steppers can't mechanically resolve more positions
11:32 AM Rab: rs[m]1, I see.
11:33 AM Thorhian: That's good to know rs[m]1
11:33 AM Rab: Thorhian_, what's the intrinsic resolution of your steppers?
11:34 AM Thorhian: Define "intrinsic resolution" Rab?
11:34 AM Thorhian: BTW Thorhian_ is my RPi4 for LinuxCNC. I better make that more obvious.
11:35 AM Rab: Thorhian_, number of steps per revolution, or degrees per step.
11:37 AM Thorhian: It's adjustable. They don't "specify" microstepping but I guess it might not be? Maximum is 40K steps per rev, which is how it comes configured in the mail. I just changed them to 4K per rev.
11:37 AM Rab: Typical motors I've seen are 1.8°/200 steps, but I have some high-precision steppers that are .9°/step.
11:38 AM Rab: Thorhian, oh, you have motors with integrated drivers right?
11:38 AM Thorhian: These are closed loop stepper drivers (and motors) from stepperonline, CL57Y. They aren't integrated into the motors.
11:39 AM Thorhian: Wait a sec, you asked about motors *face palm*
11:41 AM Thorhian: Step angle is 1.8 degrees.
11:42 AM Rab: OK, so 200 steps/rev. The lowest setting on the CL57Y is 400/rev, which suggests a half-stepping mode.
11:44 AM Thorhian: I see. Yikes the default 40K is ludicrous lol. Good thing they are down to 4K now.
11:45 AM Thorhian: Right now it is in 1/20 stepping at 4k?
11:45 AM Rab: 200 steps/rev on a 5mm pitch screw would be .025mm/step, .0125mm at 400 steps/rev. Pretty good IMO, but I don't know the design goals of the machine.
11:47 AM Rab: I also don't know about that closed-loop stepper driver. Maybe setting stepping too low constrains its seeking logic. Have you used their tuning software?
11:50 AM Rab: Thorhian, what's the resolution of your encoder? I think that will be the real constraint.
11:51 AM Thorhian: Not yet Rab. I haven't really worried about it since I've just been trying to get everything working at a basic level. The motor's encoder is 1000CPR.
11:52 AM Thorhian: Also, I run linux, that software is windows software lol, so I'll need to do some WINE crud to get it to work.
11:55 AM Rab: In that case I don't see any advantage in setting the driver higher than, I guess, 1600, or some low multiple. The machine has no way to find better accuracy than .005mm in closed-loop mode.
11:57 AM Rab: Oh, I didn't look over the table thoroughly...the driver can be set to 1000, 4000 is probably reasonable too.
11:58 AM Thorhian: I would imagine 4K is way more reasonable 40K.
12:01 PM Rab: Yeah I dunno about their software in WINE, I've never gotten USB passthrough to work. It might just be an onboard USB-to-serial adapter, though.
12:02 PM Thorhian: I know it can be done for some USB devices. Some how the Youtuber Marco Reps got WINE to work with his servo tuning software.
12:30 PM Tom_L: Thorhian, have you run across this yet: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Stepper_Drive_Timing
12:32 PM Thorhian_: I have Tom_L, my drivers aren't in that list. I just adjusted everything and the motors are running well now.
12:32 PM Tom_L: good
12:34 PM Thorhian_: It's kind of fun driving a CNC Mill with a mechanical keyboard. Kind of beats those Hass control panel buttons I've seen. I have no clue why people would want to type on those things, especially since the keyboard/buttons are completely perpendicular to how people normally type.
12:44 PM Rab: Thorhian_, chips, grease and coolant have a harder time accumulating on vertical surfaces. You may want to add a protective membrane to your keyboard.
12:53 PM * JT-Shop cuts 6 parts then wanders off to do something more fun
12:53 PM JT-Shop: lather rinse repeat...
01:13 PM Thorhian_: Maybe Rab, but I do plan on building a dedicated keyboard/panel using Kailh Box switches that are already protected from that kind of stuff. For now I will have to be careful with the keeb.
01:25 PM robotustra: test
01:25 PM Tom_L: pass
01:29 PM CaptHindsight: as bad as USB already is I've seen vendors make it even worse
01:29 PM CaptHindsight: we had one USB device that would change device ID's after the first one was initialized
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: the Virtualbox devs had to write a patch for that one to work
01:31 PM CaptHindsight: plug USB device in, one ID shows up and then one winders driver would load, then the device would change ID's and then a second driver would load
01:32 PM CaptHindsight: maybe why that vendor is not in that business anymore
02:05 PM Loetmichel: muhaha. wife just got me a tshirt. i should give that to my boss right away: https://www.emp.de/p/Der-nordische-Gott-der-Ungeduld!-Hammersbald/396041M.html/ <- it reads "the nordic god of impatience" and "Hammersbald" means "Are you done yet?" in a german dialect
02:08 PM huibuuh: :D
02:09 PM CaptHindsight: https://polyspectra.com/alpha/ engineering-grade resijns for 3d printing that don't seem to be available for sale
02:10 PM CaptHindsight: they only print your parts for you
02:13 PM Rab: That's one of the lighest blenders I've seen. No Blendtec, no deal!
02:14 PM Rab: +t
02:49 PM roycroft: i did my first finishing work on the new bench during my lucn break today - rough sanding the base parts that i'm going to assemble first
02:49 PM roycroft: i should have the base assembled by the end of this weekend
02:50 PM * roycroft will be very happy when that's done
02:50 PM * JT-Shop waits for the photos
02:55 PM CaptHindsight: we had golf ball size hail last night
02:56 PM roycroft: yuk
02:56 PM roycroft: that's something we fortunately don't ever have to deal with here
02:56 PM CaptHindsight: for few minutes it sounded like we had a train on the roof
02:56 PM roycroft: i remember hail like that when i lived back east
02:57 PM roycroft: but i've never seen it here
02:57 PM veegee_: CaptHindsight these machines are no joke, minimum 10,000 lbs each
02:57 PM veegee_: Luckily my forklift rental came through
02:57 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight, break out car windows?
02:57 PM roycroft: thunderstorms are exceedingly rare here as well
02:57 PM veegee_: But I only have the forklift for a day
02:57 PM CaptHindsight: car alarms were going off
02:57 PM veegee_: so now I have to figure out how to make them mobile inside the workshop
02:57 PM veegee_: normaly I'd put it on a pallet for < 5,000 lbs
02:57 PM veegee_: but how do I go about making a mobile base for these monsters?
02:57 PM CaptHindsight: veegee_: machine skates
02:58 PM veegee_: I'm going to lift my hyster forklift inside as well to help with other things but these machines are monsters
02:58 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/temp/hail/hail5.jpg
02:58 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: I haven't been out yet today but I imagine that lower priced cars with thin sheet metal would have dents in them
02:58 PM veegee_: I'll have a 11,000 lb capacity pallet jack in 2 weeks but I need to move them around sooner than that
02:58 PM Tom_L: that broke most car windows and N side of homes
02:59 PM Tom_L: 2016
02:59 PM veegee_: CaptHindsight thanks, machine skates look decent. Now to find a distributor for them, or figure out how to build my own
02:59 PM veegee_: I'll modify some hydraulic car jacks if I have to
02:59 PM CaptHindsight: open the door last night and the hail was blowing mostly sideways
03:00 PM veegee_: it's 27º and I'm dripping sweat here in Toronto
03:00 PM veegee_: where the hell is it hailing for y'all
03:00 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200673816_200673816
03:00 PM CaptHindsight: veegee_: near Chicago last night
03:01 PM veegee_: what was the temperature in sane units?
03:01 PM CaptHindsight: 2 more days of 90and then fall weather again
03:01 PM Thorhian: Can't wait for cooler weather.
03:01 PM CaptHindsight: was near 80f last night
03:01 PM veegee_: fucking ºF
03:02 PM Tom_L: heh
03:02 PM veegee_: CaptHindsight if I didn't love you so much for all the help you've given me, I'd murder you in your sleep for the ºF
03:02 PM Tom_L: no sign of tornados?
03:02 PM Thorhian: Lol veegee_. You are so nice sometimes, but then you sound like you want to kill people lol
03:02 PM Tom_L: not surprising for one to follow the other
03:02 PM Rab: Ultra-simple skate design: https://www.ebay.com/itm/113982413575
03:03 PM veegee_: Thorhian it's light hearted comment, obviously I'd never murder anyone
03:03 PM Thorhian: ;)
03:03 PM veegee_: But I genuinely am extremely thankful for all the help you guys have given me selflessly
03:03 PM CaptHindsight: 27C last night, sorry
03:04 PM Thorhian: Lol veegee, you have helped me plenty.
03:04 PM veegee_: I did? What'd I do?
03:04 PM veegee_: I don't remember being of any help here
03:04 PM Tom_L: haha
03:05 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: no tornadoes last night, last week we had 15 at the same time within 20 miles
03:05 PM Thorhian: Oh you have helped give advice on various aspects of lubrication and spindle motors a bit back.
03:05 PM Thorhian: At least to me lol
03:05 PM veegee_: ah that
03:05 PM veegee_: All I remember is trolling and pushing roycroft 's buttons
03:05 PM Tom_L: been fairly mild weather wise around here this year
03:06 PM Thorhian: Lol I remember that too.
03:07 PM veegee_: My expertise is in software and hardware engineering. I'm very much a student when it comes to machining and industrial stuff
03:07 PM Thorhian: Lol I'm more of a software person too XD
03:07 PM veegee_: Hence the noob questions about forklifts and heavy equipment
03:07 PM CaptHindsight: veegee_: out last shop had floors so polished i could slide machines around without skates
03:08 PM CaptHindsight: I would just use soapy water to make a glide path
03:08 PM veegee_: Yeah I definitely need skates for my floor. It's smooth concrete but these things weigh more than 10,000 lbs
03:08 PM Tom_L: sawed stress cracks instead of trowel too i bet
03:09 PM CaptHindsight: https://imgur.com/ey5VtXu 16,000 and just skates on the front
03:09 PM CaptHindsight: i used a walk behind electric pallet lifter to push it
03:12 PM CaptHindsight: skates and a forklift can move just about anything
03:13 PM CaptHindsight: i picked up a Bridgeport once from an old machinist
03:13 PM Tom_L: did that end up as a lcnc conversion?
03:13 PM CaptHindsight: he was about 5ft tall and 80 yo
03:13 PM CaptHindsight: when i showed up with the truck he had already moved it out of the garage by himself using just some steel bars for rollers
03:14 PM Deejay: gn8
03:14 PM Tom_L: that's how we moved the boss5
03:14 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: still manual, the scales are still sitting in the boxes and i have to rebuild the head
03:14 PM CaptHindsight: the clutch is stuck in High
03:15 PM rs[m]1: veegee: 82F = 28C.
03:15 PM CaptHindsight: old step pulley j head
03:15 PM Rab: CaptHindsight, I knew an elderly guy of similar vital stats who moved printing presses the same way; just a bunch of black pipe and a rock bar, egyptian style. You need skids if the machine has cast feet, though.
03:16 PM Thorhian: exit
03:16 PM CaptHindsight: the same guy sold me a box of Cat40 holders and tools for $100 that was worth thousands
03:16 PM Tom_L: heh
03:16 PM Tom_L: he wasn't using them?
03:16 PM CaptHindsight: he was getting too old
03:17 PM CaptHindsight: he showed me an old turret lathe from the 50's with the accessories still in the wax paper
03:17 PM Tom_L: i imagine you can find quite a few around here since alot of shops are moving to shrink fit
03:18 PM CaptHindsight: was a giant Warner & Swasey the size of a car
03:19 PM CaptHindsight: $200 for all, come get it
03:19 PM Tom_L: scrap might have been worth that much
03:20 PM CaptHindsight: was likely the next home if I didn't take it
03:21 PM CaptHindsight: he said he remembered the day it arrived new
03:21 PM CaptHindsight: why he knew where the accessories that were never touched were stored
03:22 PM CaptHindsight: small town Wisconsin finds
03:22 PM Tom_L: what'd he machine up there?
03:23 PM CaptHindsight: skunkworks: was your area very industrial back in the 50-s?
03:23 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: think it was tool and die
03:24 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: last i saw he was making small precision parts on his CNC bridgeport
03:24 PM CaptHindsight: they were small <5mm parts
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: this was the kind of town you can picture in an old movie
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: old gas station signs still up, old movie theater etc
03:33 PM Tom_L: cool
03:34 PM Tom_L: i recall taking wood nickels to the drug store for a soda kinda town
03:35 PM CaptHindsight: http://eaglehistoricalsociety.org/?page_id=13
03:39 PM roycroft: there were still merchants giving out wooden nickels when i was very young
03:40 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.easttroyrr.org/
03:43 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: well the old west was just called "west" back then :)
03:58 PM veegee_: Looks like I'll have to use multiple vehicle dollies as a temporary measure to move the machinery inside
03:58 PM veegee_: it sits well on 4x4 wood so should be fine until I can make a proper base for it
03:59 PM veegee_: automotive floor jacks and dollies also seem to be on sale and total cost is cheaper than vehicle skates
04:04 PM veegee_: 4 of these should do the trick for now: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/2-pc-5-000-lb-vehicle-dollies/A-p8906521e
04:07 PM Tom_L: wheels look a big lightweight for moving a machine
04:08 PM veegee_: temporary use only and will be using 4 per machine
04:08 PM veegee_: on smooth concrete floor
04:08 PM veegee_: so that's 20,000 lbs rated for a 10,000 lb machine. I think it should be ok until I can get some real heavy duty stuff
04:10 PM veegee_: Oh cool they also have this: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/4-400-lb-transport-trolley/A-p8898322e
04:11 PM veegee_: Cast iron casters. My only concern is how do you steer it?
04:11 PM veegee_: They're not swivel casters
04:12 PM veegee_: "Simply place 1 of these trollies under each tire to allow 1 person to easily move a vehicle in any direction." I don't get it, how do you move it in any direction if they're fixed casters?
04:13 PM Rab: Same way these are steered: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/BPAAAOSw2VJdY~TM/s-l1600.jpg
04:13 PM veegee_: Unless they mean lift and reposition
04:13 PM Rab: Note the pivot bolt through the center.
04:14 PM veegee_: Rab Not really sure what I'm looking at
04:14 PM veegee_: Cant imagine how this princessauto.com/en/detail/4-400-lb-transport-trolley/A-p8898322e can go in any direction other than straight ahead
04:15 PM veegee_: rotation about the centre will cause "shear" force on the casters
04:15 PM Rab: If they're steel/iron, they should slide.
04:16 PM veegee_: ah so kind of like how a battle tank works?
04:16 PM Rab: But those might collapse if you rotate them under weight.
04:16 PM roycroft: i'd move it around with a bunch of 1" steel rods or lengths of pipe
04:16 PM roycroft: putting a heavy machine on casters is not a safe thing to be doing
04:16 PM veegee_: That sounds a bit cumbersome
04:17 PM veegee_: The machine has a low centre of gravity, I'm not worried about tipping
04:17 PM veegee_: and our floor is perfectly level
04:17 PM roycroft: you have to pick it up pretty high to get it on the casters
04:17 PM veegee_: I have a forklift
04:18 PM veegee_: and automotive jacks and what not to deal with it inside
04:21 PM roycroft: i'd also not want to concentrate all that weight on just 16 tiny points
04:21 PM veegee_: true, this is just temporary
04:21 PM roycroft: using pipe/rod would spread the weight out over the floor a lot better
04:21 PM roycroft: and avoid any possibility of chipping the concrete
04:21 PM veegee_: It's "industrial" concrete that's more than a decade old
04:21 PM veegee_: I highly doubt it'll have any issue with this
04:22 PM veegee_: Oh also I was talking about the skates
04:22 PM veegee_: not the automotive dolly
04:22 PM veegee_: Those have much wider casters
04:22 PM roycroft: the collective experience of the universe suggests that it happens sometimes
04:22 PM veegee_: roycroft I was talking about this: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/4-400-lb-transport-trolley/A-p8898322e
04:22 PM veegee_: This has a lot more surface area, similar to real machine skates
04:23 PM veegee_: I just need something right now and that is available until I can buy real machine skates
04:24 PM Rab: The machines do seem better suited to skates than to pipe.
04:26 PM roycroft: i don't know what they look like on the underside
04:26 PM Rab: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1511015796
04:27 PM Rab: The tall one, I guess it's the brake, is on feet.
04:27 PM roycroft: oh, they just have pads on the ends
04:27 PM roycroft: yeah, pipe would not work too well for that
04:28 PM roycroft: maybe a pallet jack on each end with a support beam bolted to the feet
04:28 PM roycroft: that might be a little tippy though
04:29 PM roycroft: actually, if you bolted the support beam to the top of the feet you could use pallet jacks and only have to lift the machines a fraction of an inch off the floor
04:30 PM Rab: I'm not too impressed with those trollies. 6" high, and they look like they might collapse sideways.
04:30 PM roycroft: i would not want to lift a heavy machine like that that high
04:30 PM roycroft: the pallet jack would only have to lift it high enough to clear the bolt heads
04:31 PM roycroft: you want to keep the machine as low as possible
04:33 PM Rab: Remember that at this scale, there are plausible failure modes which can result in your guts being squeezed out your butt.
04:33 PM roycroft: yes
04:33 PM roycroft: and 6" is extremely high for a machine that size, especially when using unknown/untested carriers
04:34 PM veegee_: roycroft I'm going to build a base for it first
04:34 PM veegee_: it'll make it more stable
04:35 PM roycroft: without spending any time thinking about it, if i had to move it quickly i'd get a couple i beams, each the width of the machine
04:35 PM veegee_: I have the 15,000 lb forklift for only a day so that's the constraint
04:35 PM roycroft: a piece of pipe to use to cut spacers
04:35 PM veegee_: yeah
04:36 PM roycroft: space the i-beam just high enough above the pads for the pallet jack to clear
04:36 PM veegee_: that's what I'm doing, but wood instead of metal I beams because no one is open at this hour
04:36 PM roycroft: and then bolt through the feet, through the spacers, and into the i-beam
04:36 PM roycroft: i'd have to think a bit about how to make sure the spacers are rigid
04:37 PM roycroft: but that kind of approach
04:37 PM roycroft: so that you really only have to lift the machine a fraction of an inch off the floor
04:37 PM veegee_: They're bottom heavy, I'm not worried
04:37 PM roycroft: even with a low center of gravity, heavy machines get really tippy when you lift them
04:37 PM veegee_: and one of them is lift fro top only
04:37 PM roycroft: evne more so when you start moving them
04:38 PM roycroft: you should be worried
04:38 PM Rab: Could always try dragging them on greased 2x12s...
04:38 PM veegee_: I just moved them with a forklift, they were stable
04:38 PM roycroft: you were not moving them around on their ends
04:38 PM roycroft: you lifted them in the middle
04:38 PM roycroft: it's a totally different thing
04:39 PM veegee_: I'll extend their base somehow
04:39 PM roycroft: well you're obviously the expert here, so i'm sure your way will be the best possible way
04:41 PM veegee_: definitely not, but again time constraint
04:41 PM veegee_: and stores are not open right now except princess auto
04:41 PM veegee_: so......
04:42 PM veegee_: you have to make do with what you have
04:42 PM veegee_: I also have a gantry crane for stability
04:42 PM veegee_: if it gets "tippy", the crane will prevent it from falling over
04:42 PM roycroft: or leave them where they are, cover them with tarps, and do it safely and properly when you have the time?
04:43 PM veegee_: I won't have the forklift to even move them past tomorrow early morning
04:43 PM veegee_: It'll be fine :)
04:45 PM veegee_: You can't tell from the pics, but there are several ways to support it from the bottom
04:45 PM veegee_: they're a lot less tippy than you think
04:45 PM roycroft: again, you're the expert
04:45 PM roycroft: so i'll defer to you
04:46 PM roycroft: i have to design a jig right now anyway
04:46 PM veegee_: sarcasm not needed, ideas welcome
04:46 PM roycroft: actually they aren't, which is why i said what i said
04:47 PM veegee_: but thoughts appreciated, thanks
04:53 PM * JT-Shop is on his last reconcile...
05:28 PM CaptHindsight: I missed the pics of the actual machines
05:28 PM _unreal_: me too
05:31 PM CaptHindsight: princessauto.com sounds like a place with rainbows and unicorns
06:11 PM _unreal_: my kind of place to throw eggs at
06:45 PM robotustra: what are you moving guys?
06:46 PM * robotustra failed to clean mill with vacuum cleanter from long niddle-like Al chips
06:47 PM robotustra: so, how I suppose to clean it then?
06:49 PM Tom_L: gloves and a trashcan
06:49 PM robotustra: that's what I wanted to escape
06:49 PM robotustra: should be the best way
06:50 PM robotustra: they just stuck in the hose
06:50 PM Tom_L: i get the bulk with gloves then finish with the vacuum
06:54 PM robotustra: probably
06:55 PM Tom_L: nice thing about mill chips, they're usually small
06:57 PM robotustra: I have no problem with small chips, but not this time
06:59 PM robotustra: https://imgur.com/a/bVio1Sy
06:59 PM robotustra: 20 mm chips does not fly
06:59 PM Tom_L: cutting a sidewall
07:01 PM robotustra: cutting the edge of the 5/8" Al bar
07:02 PM robotustra: but tomorrow continue with drilling and tapping
07:03 PM CaptHindsight: aluminum magnets
07:03 PM robotustra: oh, its 3/4
07:03 PM robotustra: sorry
07:03 PM CaptHindsight: scraper and trash can
07:04 PM robotustra: Al magnets would be nice
07:04 PM CaptHindsight: then coat your hands in butter and wipe everything down
07:05 PM CaptHindsight: the remaining chips sticks to the butter
07:05 PM CaptHindsight: I just scoop them along until they hit the bottom tray
07:05 PM CaptHindsight: then scoop out the tray
07:07 PM snakedGT is now known as snaked
07:13 PM skunkworks: http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/IMG_20140626_174011_685.jpg
07:13 PM skunkworks: that is pretty
07:30 PM Tom_L: nice
07:30 PM Tom_L: what lathe is that?
07:30 PM Tom_L: my tool post is very similar
07:39 PM skunkworks: monarch 10ee
07:40 PM skunkworks: it has had a life.. But still an awesome lathe
07:40 PM Tom_L: mine is smaller and getting tired
08:01 PM jdh: there was a working 10ee here for < $1k. lack of space though
08:22 PM roycroft: well that was fun - 2 hours tuning up/setting up the bandsaw, 2 hours making a jig to guide the work pieces, and 5 minutes making the cuts on the work pieces (eight cuts total)
09:03 PM roycroft: woodworking is a lot like machining in that respect
09:31 PM veegee_: sooo I got some cheap temporary machine skates
09:31 PM veegee_: and the machine is super stable
09:32 PM veegee_: roycroft I can't tip it over even if I put my entire body weight into it
09:32 PM veegee_: does that count as stable?
09:33 PM veegee_: I mean I don't understand how it wouldn't be stable. It's on 4 machine skates, one at each corner and it's a rectangular machine
09:33 PM veegee_: obviously it's not a permanent base, it's just for moving it around inside until everything is organized
09:36 PM Rab: veegee_, the Princess Auto things, or some other skates?
09:40 PM veegee_: Rab the princess auto ones, specifically this: https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/4-400-lb-transport-trolley/A-p8898322e
09:40 PM veegee_: No one else has anything similar in stock, and open until 9pm for a reasonable price
09:41 PM veegee_: I can always return for any reason within 1 year
09:42 PM veegee_: but for the price, they're damn decent
09:42 PM CaptHindsight: have a pic of the load?
09:42 PM CaptHindsight: are they lathes?
09:43 PM veegee_: CaptHindsight, I'll take a pic when I'm done with everything, have a long night ahead of me. Need to make sure I'm fully done with the 15,000 lb forklift before they pick it up tomorrow morning
09:43 PM veegee_: CaptHindsight one is a brake and the other is a shear
09:43 PM CaptHindsight: ah ok
09:43 PM veegee_: I also used it to lift my hyster forklift inside
09:44 PM CaptHindsight: so you have one lift inside and one outside now?
09:44 PM veegee_: yeah
09:45 PM CaptHindsight: they were just about giving brakes and shears away around here
09:46 PM veegee_: Yeah I got these for free
09:46 PM veegee_: and more free stuff coming tomorrow
09:46 PM veegee_: but those are light, less than 2000 lbs each
09:46 PM veegee_: one is a radial arm saw and the other is a band saw
09:48 PM CaptHindsight: radial arm saw, livin dangerously
09:48 PM veegee_: I'm just taking it because he's giving it to me for free
09:49 PM veegee_: well small favour, just need to upgrade the PHP version on his site. should take me like 15 minutes
09:49 PM CaptHindsight: how wide is the shear?
09:49 PM veegee_: 10 ft
09:49 PM CaptHindsight: nice
09:49 PM veegee_: same with the brake
09:53 PM CaptHindsight: why i have a dock and drive in door
09:53 PM CaptHindsight: easier to move things
09:54 PM CaptHindsight: veegee_: do you think the border from the US will be closed for the next year?
09:55 PM veegee_: To be honest, I have no idea. The US government is a gigantic disaster
09:56 PM CaptHindsight: likely at least until jan and we start to fix things
09:56 PM veegee_: I hope trump wins
09:56 PM veegee_: need to push it further for a real revolution to happen
09:57 PM veegee_: DNC fucked over Bernie Sanders who's the only non corrupt candidate
09:57 PM CaptHindsight: it never gets that bad, just close
09:57 PM veegee_: because the establishment is too greedy
09:57 PM CaptHindsight: they have learned
09:57 PM veegee_: DNC will never learn
09:57 PM veegee_: hilary was a broken candidate, biden is almost as bad
09:57 PM veegee_: only way is to get money out of politics
09:58 PM CaptHindsight: just don't go too far
09:58 PM CaptHindsight: you can push idiots pretty far
09:58 PM veegee_: as long as bribery is legal, this corruption is here to stay
09:59 PM CaptHindsight: it's really not a battle between parties
10:00 PM CaptHindsight: sure they run for office
10:00 PM CaptHindsight: it's all pretty broken
10:04 PM CaptHindsight: we still debate the existence of the angry invisible man in the sky
10:05 PM CaptHindsight: cave men with smart phones
10:06 PM veegee_: exactly
10:06 PM veegee_: it's really depressing
10:06 PM veegee_: which is why I keep my mind busy with hobbies and work and what not
10:09 PM veegee_: Getting this industrial unit has been a noticeable boost in my mental health, and for that alone, it's totally worth the monetary expense. Even something silly like restoring an old forklift although considered by many to be a waste of time, really helps
10:10 PM veegee_: Also gets the brain thinking in a different way which helps solves technical challenges at work.
10:10 PM veegee_: The girls always like an interesting well rounded person too :)
10:10 PM XXCoder: you finished the forklift?
10:11 PM veegee_: it's fully functional, just need to fix the "old car noises" it makes
10:11 PM veegee_: low priority though
10:11 PM veegee_: brb, need to finish up moving and arranging the rest of this stuff
10:11 PM XXCoder: cool
10:14 PM CaptHindsight: veegee: me to, just having something fixed or finished