Aug 20 2020
01:02 AM Deejay: hi
05:06 AM JT-Cave: morning
06:09 AM R2E4: mornin y'all
06:11 AM R2E4: The racktoolchange.ngc doesnt make sense to me. I read it that everytime the toolchange is run it puts back the tool in the rack wheteher or not the selected_tool is in the spindle or not.
06:11 AM R2E4: example: If tool 3 is in the spindle, then it puts back tool 3 and then pickws it up. I see no checking if tool is already in the spindle.
06:12 AM R2E4: Anyone else see that?
06:13 AM JT-Cave: never looked at a rack tool changer
06:14 AM JT-Cave: is that an example file?
06:14 AM Tom_L: morning
06:14 AM JT-Cave: morning
06:22 AM Tom_L: does the .var file keep track of the last tool in the spindle upon shutdown?
06:29 AM JT-Cave: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gcode/overview.html#sub:numbered-parameters
07:30 AM R2E4: no it doesnt keep track. You need to unload the tool but it doesnt make sense to unload the tool and reload it if the tool is already in the spindle
07:32 AM JT-Cave: just use M61
07:32 AM R2E4: https://pastebin.com/eDy3hpLp
07:34 AM R2E4: Yeah setting current tool is not the issue. This toolchange is loqad and unload from the top. I have to do one load from the front and pickup from the top.
07:34 AM R2E4: but I was trying to follow to modify but the ngc doesnt make sense because of that.
07:35 AM R2E4: so can we do a double conditional statement in an o word sub?
07:37 AM R2E4: like if [#<_current_pocket> GT 0 and not EQ #<_selected_tool>]
07:37 AM R2E4: that doesnt seem to work
07:44 AM JT-Cave: not is not one of the binary operators
07:44 AM JT-Cave: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gcode/overview.html#gcode:binary-operators
07:44 AM JT-Cave: NE is Not Equal
07:45 AM JT-Cave: chicken chores are done shower time
07:46 AM * SpeedEvil imagines JT-Cave removing the chicken suit after doing chores.
07:46 AM R2E4: thanks JT-Cave
08:13 AM * JT-Shop really needs to clean his desk off
08:20 AM JT-Cave: down here too...
08:36 AM R2E4: IS it possible to pop a message up in the GUI within an o word sub?
08:47 AM JT-Shop: yes
08:52 AM R2E4: It is not showing in the o codes docs
08:53 AM JT-Shop: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gcode/overview.html#gcode:messages
08:58 AM R2E4: Thanks
09:16 AM R2E4: Does look like it will work? https://pastebin.com/5Q0g0Ewe
09:19 AM JT-Shop: looks ok to me
09:19 AM * JT-Shop is off to work on a 1800's spoke lathe
09:26 AM * Loetmichel just produced a little "BANG"... Note to self: the foam that emerges when you develop/photoetch anodized aluminium with NaOH is pure hydrogen... alu sheet is now a bit bent and my ears are ringing ;)
09:30 AM FinboySlick: Careful Loetmichel, nowadays that can get you on a domestic terrorism watchlist.
09:31 AM Loetmichel: probably not when doing it at work
09:33 AM FinboySlick: You sure? That could just be interpreted as a bigger threat because you are part of an organization.
10:43 AM unterhaus: did someone recommend some paint stripper wheels for 4 1/2" grinder?
12:22 PM Tom_L: Loetmichel, we're not gonna read about you like Beirut one day are we?
12:26 PM Loetmichel: Tom_L: improbable. just a bit of hydrogen foam on the top of a sheet of alu from etching it in caustic soda... and then took the sheet out with me to have a smoke, forgetting that that foam is hydrogen filled.
12:26 PM Loetmichel: gave quite a bang and bent the 1mm alu sheet, nothing more ;)
12:26 PM Loetmichel: (when i lit my cigarette)
12:27 PM JT-Cave: I told you smoking is bad for your health lol
12:27 PM Tom_L: :)
12:27 PM Tom_L: nice mild day here today
12:27 PM Tom_L: 84F currently
01:41 PM MrHindsight is now known as CaptHindsight
02:09 PM alex_joni: skunkworks: !!
02:10 PM alex_joni: sorry.. wasn't really paying attention in here :)
02:10 PM rmu: H2-O2 can detonate, i.e. reaction speed is higher than speed of sound
02:24 PM CaptHindsight: we did similar in elementary school with electrolysis of water, we lit the test tube full of hydrogen to show that the experiment was performed properly, was ~12 y.o.
02:25 PM CaptHindsight: now everything is scary and you probably watch some video of how hydrogen burns in class
02:29 PM rmu: we played hide and seek with a geiger counter, a chunk of granite with a very high uranium content and an old watch. in highschool. under supervision ;)
03:11 PM Deejay: gn8
04:09 PM CaptHindsight: do high schools in the US still have machine shops or auto shops?
04:10 PM Tom_L: wood, dunno about metal or auto
04:10 PM Tom_L: auto was moved to the vo'tech i think
04:11 PM Tom_L: probably varies with the region
04:11 PM CaptHindsight: http://jmhs.mars.k12.wv.us/cte-machine-shop/
04:12 PM XXCoder: capt mostly no
04:13 PM XXCoder: budget cuts. schools have been target of budget cuts for last couple decades
04:13 PM XXCoder: I was in last class for wood shop
04:13 PM XXCoder: mr. hammer died after that and school decided to close down shoip for good due to budget cost
04:14 PM XXCoder: i wish I was able to take advanced wood shop but well
04:16 PM CaptHindsight: Chinese Shop: Learning how to decipher their claimed specifications and the art of negotiating price.
04:18 PM CaptHindsight: How to use escrow to your advantage.
04:18 PM Tom_L: i took both
04:18 PM Tom_L: and drafting etc
04:18 PM XXCoder: all of them? i somehow doubt that
04:18 PM Tom_L: that was a couple days ago
04:20 PM XXCoder: tom sorry was reply to capt not you :)
04:21 PM roycroft: i took drafting in high school
04:21 PM roycroft: we used rules and triangles and pencils for that
04:22 PM Tom_L: no cad back then :)
04:22 PM roycroft: nope
04:22 PM Tom_L: uh huh
04:22 PM XXCoder: yeah. was part of wood shop. did some drafting
04:22 PM Tom_L: and slide rules in math class
04:22 PM roycroft: the first hand-held electronic calculators came out while i was in high school
04:22 PM roycroft: so yeah, we used slide rules
04:23 PM roycroft: i still have some slide rules, actually
04:23 PM roycroft: and i pretty much remember how to use them
04:24 PM Tom_L: when they came out, the math teacher kept the HP calculator on his desk
04:24 PM Tom_L: i couldn't find my HS one
04:30 PM XXCoder: I dont know where my HS one went but I still have my college ti-84 heh
04:41 PM unterhaus: I never used a slide rule, but the trig books went on at length about logarithms, which I always assumed was because of slide rules
04:41 PM unterhaus: I still have my hp41
04:42 PM unterhaus: I had a high end TI, but as soon as I started using the HP I got rid of it
04:43 PM unterhaus: I think my TI was a 59, pretty sure I had a card reader
04:50 PM Tom_L: would it be fair to say on a standard 32 pitch thread the distance from major and minor diameters would be the same distance on a custom thread?
04:52 PM Tom_L: i realize custom threads can be custom but generally speaking a 32 pitch thread will have the same major to minor D distance
04:55 PM roycroft: so my public power/water/sewer utility finally installed a "smart" water meter at my house
04:55 PM roycroft: they said they would contact me to arrange a time
04:55 PM roycroft: they did not
04:55 PM roycroft: they said there would be an online management tool
04:55 PM roycroft: there is not
04:56 PM Tom_L: give em time
04:56 PM Tom_L: mine went to that system a few years back
04:56 PM roycroft: the only reason i know they did it is because they just sent me a notice telling me i'm using an excessive amount of water, and that it's been flowing continuously for 48+ hours
04:56 PM roycroft: the problem is that there is zero water flowing
04:56 PM roycroft: i went and checked the meter
04:56 PM Tom_L: you can check the meter cover and see where they drilled out for the sensor
04:56 PM roycroft: not one drop is flowing
04:56 PM roycroft: and they're clamining it's gushing out
04:56 PM roycroft: over 1000 gallons/hour
04:57 PM roycroft: i told them it's not
04:57 PM roycroft: they told me that there must be a leak
04:57 PM Tom_L: seems you got a problem
04:57 PM roycroft: i told them the water meter shows no flow
04:57 PM roycroft: they told me their "smart" sensor shows >1000 gallons/hour
04:57 PM Tom_L: shut the valve off and see if it continues
04:58 PM roycroft: the "smart" sensor is on their side of the meber
04:58 PM roycroft: meter
04:58 PM roycroft: not mine
04:58 PM roycroft: zero water is flowing
04:58 PM roycroft: i guarantee that
04:58 PM Tom_L: shouldn't make any difference
04:58 PM roycroft: if >1000 gallons/hour were flowing i would hear it
04:58 PM Tom_L: or you would be wading in it
04:58 PM roycroft: actually it does make a difference
04:59 PM roycroft: and i'm trying to figure out how they can possbily use the system
04:59 PM Tom_L: the main shutoff is on their side of the measuring equipment
04:59 PM roycroft: for them to measure how much water i'm using they would have to put the flow meter on *my* side of the shutoff
04:59 PM Tom_L: be it a meter or electronic
04:59 PM roycroft: if it's on their side they can't prove that i'm using that water
05:00 PM roycroft: there is a main shutoff valve on their side that they can lock
05:00 PM roycroft: directly connected to that is a physical meter
05:01 PM roycroft: directly connected to that on the other side is another shutoff valve that i can use
05:01 PM Tom_L: that was kinda rude
05:01 PM roycroft: their sensor is between the feed from the street and the shutoff valve on their side
05:01 PM Tom_L: server disconnected
05:01 PM roycroft: i hate it when that happens
05:02 PM roycroft: anyway, they're already getting locked into "the computer says this so it must be right" mentality
05:02 PM Tom_L: their sensor should be in your meter hole
05:02 PM roycroft: it is
05:02 PM roycroft: you missed what i said
05:02 PM Tom_L: along side or replacing the old meter
05:02 PM roycroft: this is how it goes:
05:02 PM roycroft: water main in street -> "smart" sensor -> utility shutoff valve -> mechanical meter -> customer shutoff valve
05:03 PM roycroft: but yes, i think your suggestion is a good one
05:03 PM Tom_L: well it shouldn't be that way
05:03 PM roycroft: i shall go turn the shutoff valve on my side to the no flow position
05:03 PM Tom_L: if they're measuring your useage it should be on your side of their main shutoff
05:03 PM roycroft: not because it will make any difference
05:03 PM roycroft: it won't
05:04 PM roycroft: but because they continue to claim that i'm consuming 1000+ gallons/hour
05:04 PM roycroft: and if i tell them i've turned the main valve off they won't have an excuse to continue believing their bogus readings
05:04 PM Tom_L: just sitting at a desk too lazy to actually physically check it out
05:05 PM roycroft: and might finally dispatch someone to do a physical meter reading, and realise that their electronic sender is broken
05:05 PM roycroft: well customer service would not check it themselves
05:05 PM Tom_L: how long has this been going on?
05:05 PM roycroft: i just got the notice in an email about an hour ago
05:05 PM roycroft: but they claim it's been flowing continuously since 2 august
05:06 PM XXCoder: heard stories of that. somehow water company was thinking some old lady was filling a pool and emptying it everudau
05:06 PM roycroft: if that were the case i'd be floating in a raft on lake roycroft by now
05:06 PM Tom_L: that's enough to fill a small pond
05:06 PM XXCoder: lol lake roycroft
05:06 PM Tom_L: no, it's just going into that big sinkhole under your house so prepare yourself
05:07 PM Tom_L: any mine shafts nearby?
05:07 PM Tom_L: :)
05:07 PM roycroft: i'm investigating
05:07 PM roycroft: we must not have a mine shaft gap
05:07 PM * roycroft pours a glass of pure grain alcohol
05:11 PM ziper: what https://miami.craigslist.org/mdc/hvo/d/miami-cnc-machine-bridgeport-interact/7164482228.html
05:12 PM CaptHindsight: scrap pricing
05:15 PM roycroft: ack
05:15 PM roycroft: it's after 3
05:15 PM roycroft: i'm off work
05:15 PM * roycroft worked too late today
05:16 PM roycroft: but now i'm done
05:16 PM roycroft: and i'm going to finish installing the leg vise for my new bench today
05:24 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: I had a similar experience with the gas co about 20 years ago..
05:25 PM CaptHindsight: they overestimated my usage so that the meter had gone all the way around and sent me a bill for $100,000
05:27 PM CaptHindsight: usage was enough to power a large forging plant
05:29 PM roycroft: i'll get it sorted out
05:29 PM roycroft: mine is a really great public utility
05:29 PM roycroft: and customer service are usually really good
05:30 PM roycroft: they're just trapped in a "whatever the computer says must be correct" mindset
09:07 PM roycroft: nice
09:08 PM XXCoder: ?
09:08 PM roycroft: there are videos of people with my vise hardware who spin the leg vise handle with one finger and it spins all the way shut, tightly
09:08 PM roycroft: that's how mine works :)
09:08 PM roycroft: it turned out perfect
09:09 PM roycroft: i kind of expected that
09:09 PM XXCoder: nice
09:09 PM roycroft: last night i sat the vise screw down on the bench
09:09 PM XXCoder: i do that sometimes with kurt vises
09:09 PM roycroft: it was mountee the handle, so the screw was vertical
09:09 PM roycroft: i sat the nut on the top, and started turning it on the screw a fraction of a turn
09:09 PM roycroft: then i let go
09:10 PM AgentWD40: I'm trying to study up on plasmac gcode commands. `M3 $0 S1 (select plasma torch)` So does this command initiate the entire cycle that goes to pierce height, fires, pauses for arcOK and pierce time, THEN moves to the next line of gcode?
09:10 PM roycroft: the nut very slowly, but steadily, spun all the way down the screw on its own
09:10 PM roycroft: the screw is about 350mm long
09:10 PM roycroft: it took about 45 seconds for the nut to spin down
09:11 PM roycroft: it's a double thread screw, btw
09:11 PM roycroft: and both the acme screw and the nut are polished
09:12 PM roycroft: i paid over $700 for the vise hardware, so i'm feeling pretty good right now that it actually works as advertised
09:31 PM Tom_L: AgentWD40, most of the plasma ppl are probably asleep now
09:33 PM AgentWD40: interesting. I've gotten the impression that most of the plasma people are australian, it's lunch time over there!
09:33 PM Tom_L: i dunno
09:33 PM AgentWD40: at least that's the impression i get on the forums
09:33 PM Tom_L: i know JT-Cave and skunkworks are knowledgeable on the topic
09:34 PM Tom_L: the forum list and this one don't overlap that much
09:34 PM AgentWD40: thanks for the heads up ill check back later
09:35 PM AgentWD40: I actually think i recognize both those screen names from the forum
09:35 PM Tom_L: try ~4:30 - 5:00 CDT
09:35 PM AgentWD40: cool, thank you
09:35 PM Tom_L: maybe a bit later for skunkworks
09:36 PM tiwake: I should get some clearcoat powdercoat
09:36 PM tiwake: erm, clear powdercoat I guess is more correct
09:41 PM _unreal_: making this part in aluminum for my drill press the original is plastic and snaped likenothing with in no time
09:41 PM _unreal_: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/717411349541683212/746196752285040660/hatachi_drill_press_depth_coller_repair_v1.jpg
09:42 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Brass_cup/Brass_Cup4.JPG
09:42 PM Tom_L: gonna try my hand at some custom threads
09:53 PM Thorhian: Question, what kind of tubing and fittings should I use to distribute oil to ball screw nuts and linear rail carriages? Don't care too much about size, just wondering if I can just use generic pneumatic fittings and tubing or do I need something that is made specifically for oil?
09:58 PM Tom_L: someone posted some brass tubing and fittings here quite a while back from aliexpress iirc
09:58 PM Tom_L: for a central lube system
09:58 PM Thorhian: People use brass tubing for that?
09:59 PM Tom_L: i think it's an option
09:59 PM Tom_L: pretty tiny tubing
10:00 PM Thorhian: That just seems like a bad idea to use metal tubing in a moving system.
10:01 PM Tom_L: well yeah not the parts that will cause it to move
10:01 PM Tom_L: route it so it's stationary
10:01 PM Tom_L: https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20200820190031&SearchText=brass+oil+tubing
10:01 PM Tom_L: might get you in a direction
10:02 PM Tom_L: some of that will be too big
10:02 PM Tom_L: someone here had a whole parts list for one
10:02 PM Thorhian: FatTiny plastic fuel line stuff looks like a good idea. I think I'll stay entirely away from AliExpress for this though.
10:03 PM Tom_L: smaller the better
10:03 PM Tom_L: space constraints etc
10:03 PM Thorhian: Definitely.
10:05 PM CaptHindsight: Thorhian: are you planning on way oil or?
10:05 PM Tom_L: haha
10:05 PM Tom_L: i put 'lube' in as part of a search term and it asked my age
10:07 PM CaptHindsight: you just need flexible plastic/rubber tubing for the moving parts that is compatible with way oil
10:08 PM CaptHindsight: teflon coated SS brake lines are available at most auto parts stores
10:08 PM CaptHindsight: lasts forever inside
10:11 PM CaptHindsight: Thorhian: https://cnc-specialty-store.com/new-lube-system-design-applications
10:22 PM Thorhian: Seems Nylon tubing is fine too. Brake lines are a good idea too Cap. This is for "way oil". \
10:27 PM CaptHindsight: and brass fitting to go from flare to compression are also easy to find
10:29 PM CaptHindsight: the Chinese stuff in general is made to only last a few years
10:29 PM CaptHindsight: it works, just not for long and it's usually low cost
10:30 PM Tom_L: and i thought that was the merican way now
10:30 PM Tom_L: engineered failure
10:30 PM CaptHindsight: sure, where we have it made
10:32 PM Tom_L: make it here but in order to be affordable we gotta bring in foreign labor
10:35 PM Tom_L: thinking about roycroft's water issue... i don't even think a standard service can put out 1000 gal/hr can it?
10:36 PM roycroft: i have really high water pressure in my neighborhood
10:36 PM roycroft: i'm not sure if it's enough to push 1000 gallons/hour
10:36 PM Tom_L: my 1" well pipe does 25gal/min so that would do it
10:37 PM roycroft: but i've measured the pressure at 85psi, which is incredibly high for residential water service
10:37 PM Tom_L: just a bit
10:38 PM roycroft: 45psi is more like what it should b
10:38 PM roycroft: e
10:38 PM Tom_L: roughly yes
10:42 PM CaptHindsight: might be interesting to find out what the water meter reading error is caused by
10:42 PM Tom_L: how do they balance the water pressure in a sky scraper?
10:42 PM roycroft: pressure regulators on each floor?
10:42 PM CaptHindsight: store it up top
10:43 PM roycroft: capthindsight: the utility just installed "smart" meters
10:43 PM CaptHindsight: https://blog.bermad.com/building-and-construction/using-prvs-to-solve-pressure-regulation-issues-in-high-rise-buildings-
10:43 PM roycroft: i'm not sure that they know how they work yet
10:45 PM roycroft: i'm not convinced that the readings they are associating with my service are even coming from the sending unit connected to my water line
10:46 PM roycroft: but if they are, the sending unit is likely either not calibrated properly or is defective
10:48 PM Tom_L: i wonder how widespread the issue is
10:48 PM roycroft: they aren't saying
10:48 PM roycroft: but usually when i call them a customer service rep picks up right away
10:48 PM Tom_L: ask your neighbors
10:48 PM roycroft: today i was in a hold queue for about 20 minutes
10:49 PM roycroft: that could be a staffing issue
10:49 PM roycroft: but it could also be a call volume issue
10:50 PM roycroft: anyway, i've decided already that tomorrow after breakfast i'll turn the water off to the house at the meter
10:50 PM roycroft: and then call them and ask them how much water they think i'm using
10:50 PM CaptHindsight: roycroft: how much does the water source that you have used for brewing had an effect on the final product?
10:51 PM roycroft: it has a hute effect
10:51 PM roycroft: huge
10:51 PM roycroft: fortuantely, i have some of the best quality water in the world
10:51 PM roycroft: it's soft and clean
10:51 PM CaptHindsight: what is the source?
10:51 PM roycroft: glaciers
10:52 PM CaptHindsight: so low mineral content
10:52 PM roycroft: yes
10:52 PM roycroft: very low
10:52 PM CaptHindsight: ever use distilled water?
10:52 PM roycroft: no
10:52 PM roycroft: distilled water is not very good for brewing
10:52 PM CaptHindsight: yeast needs metal ions
10:52 PM roycroft: and my water is pure enough that it is not necessary to do anything like that
10:53 PM roycroft: our water profile is actually very similar to that in plsen
10:53 PM CaptHindsight: have you found a good source for yeast for sours?
10:54 PM roycroft: yeast have some good bug packs for sours
10:54 PM roycroft: wyeast
10:54 PM roycroft: i haven't made a sour in quite a while
10:55 PM CaptHindsight: after i move I'll likely get some barrels for ageing
10:56 PM roycroft: https://wyeastlab.com/yeast-strain/roeselare-ale-blend
10:56 PM roycroft: i like that for making flanders red
10:56 PM CaptHindsight: looks like a nice blend
10:56 PM roycroft: it is
10:57 PM roycroft: but since it's a mix of bacteria and yeast, i can't really make a starter with it
10:57 PM roycroft: so i have to buy multiple packs for a batch
10:58 PM roycroft: the way i make flanders red is this:
10:58 PM roycroft: i make a batch using multiple packs of the roeselare blend
10:58 PM roycroft: i let it ferment for a month
10:59 PM roycroft: then i rack the beer off the yeast
10:59 PM roycroft: and make a second batch using the original yeast blend
10:59 PM roycroft: i ferment that a month then rack it off
10:59 PM roycroft: both of those batches age for six months
10:59 PM roycroft: then i do the same thing again, two batches a month apart
10:59 PM roycroft: then i do it a third time six months later
11:00 PM roycroft: so i have six batches by then
11:00 PM roycroft: then i start blending them
11:00 PM CaptHindsight: a friend dumped Lactobacillus only into some fruit stock, they put it in barrels after a week, since it was at a local brewery...
11:01 PM CaptHindsight: was sour, but stayed foamy for months
11:01 PM roycroft: i'm not sure i'd want to do that
11:02 PM roycroft: it would take forever to ferment out
11:02 PM CaptHindsight: yes it might still be fermenting and that was 3 years ago
11:02 PM CaptHindsight: by 6 months he just gave it away
11:03 PM roycroft: that reminds me
11:03 PM roycroft: i haven't sampled the wee funky in about 3 years
11:03 PM roycroft: i should pop a bottle in the fridge and see what it's like
11:03 PM CaptHindsight: you told me about that one
11:03 PM CaptHindsight: what has it been ageing in?
11:03 PM roycroft: belgian bottles
11:04 PM roycroft: corked and baled
11:04 PM roycroft: that batch must be about 8 years ol dnow
11:04 PM roycroft: maybe it's drinkable now :)
11:06 PM roycroft: i think i might try some this weekend
11:15 PM CaptHindsight: sours are mostly still unknown in this area
11:17 PM CaptHindsight: linuxcnc discord server https://discord.gg/X3zKzhc
11:18 PM roycroft: vice president biden gave a very good speech tonight
11:18 PM roycroft: apparently he's not completely lost his faculties
11:18 PM XXCoder: saw some of it. indeed
11:19 PM CaptHindsight: seems on the ball
11:19 PM XXCoder: he barely read at all
11:19 PM XXCoder: more reminder than read off it
11:19 PM XXCoder: can't wait to listen to that demon sperm doctor on rnc though
11:19 PM XXCoder: she might be interesting to listen to lol
11:20 PM CaptHindsight: the bar is just set so low now, like it's been 4 years of performance art
11:21 PM XXCoder: ken aqnd karen that pointed guns at protesting people will be on rnc too
11:23 PM CaptHindsight: we might need public service announcements in the future, therapy takes work, it makes you stronger not weaker
11:24 PM CaptHindsight: face your issues, heal and be happy
11:24 PM CaptHindsight: i really see how many have been abused and neglected
11:25 PM CaptHindsight: the past 4 years has really brought it out
11:26 PM XXCoder: many of what?
11:33 PM CaptHindsight: XXCoder: victims, specially during the stay at home orders, crappy parenting, spousal abuse, rape etc
11:34 PM XXCoder: ahh yeah that'd increase also