#linuxcnc Logs

May 18 2020

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:23 AM Deejay: moin
04:40 AM XXCoder: aw yeah im offically a machinist now
04:40 AM XXCoder: just got cnc machine spam email heh
05:50 AM Loetmichel: XXCoder: i get that for years now. even a machine trading company that calls every few monts and asks if i need an $150k CNC machine... and everytime i say: our CNCs are $1k each, i doubt boss would agree to 150 times that :-)
05:50 AM XXCoder: lol
08:41 AM transhumanist: Hi! So I bought a dremil drillpress to get some ideas of what I might be looking for in a CNC machine. As I assumed the cheap dremil drillpress is inadequate for drilling holes, and I made the mistake of purchasing the cheap one which doesnt also take a drill( which would probably be better for things like drilling which is forces around the axis of rotation as apposed to perpendicular. Live and learn.
08:41 AM transhumanist: The other problem I notice is my cheap XY bed has very poor stiffness and has a lot of slop. Would have been much better I think if the rails were much further apart, adjustment screws do nothing. Very poor, if I tighten them any more they are likely to strip. In short I dont want to make these kind of mistakes purchasing a CNC machine. I plan on buy a small one I can build larger more complex equipment with rather than spendi
08:41 AM transhumanist: a CNC milling machine and other stuff. So to this end for now I am looking for a really good metal capable small CNC with work area maybe half the size of a shoe box. Any recommendations?
08:44 AM SpeedEvil: DIYing manual mills is also a thing
08:55 AM Loetmichel: *giggle* boss has cleaned up the cellar on saturday... 3 sets of tires for the company E-class resurfaced. all three sets 2 very good profile rubbers, 2 slicks, partly even showing the steel... seems i am not the only one that drives it like i stole it ;)
09:43 AM transhumanist: SpeedEvil: For me since I am better at the computer aspects of machining (did it in college) I would rather a CNC mill. I realize this means more expense but I plan on building a lot of equipment from whatever I buy starting with a much larger and heavier CNC mill. I just want to be strategic about what CNC I get to start with. Lots of slop makes the CNC's useless, or nearly so, and I suspect many of them have this problem, e
09:43 AM transhumanist: when CNC'ing aluminum and especially steel
09:47 AM skunkworks: how is your computer interface / motion control? Buy a cnc with a dead control and convert it to linuxcnc
09:51 AM SpeedEvil: Also an option.
09:51 AM SpeedEvil: Though makes knowing the mechanical condition even more critical.
09:51 AM SpeedEvil: (as may be harder to test than a manual mill)
09:54 AM methods_: a really good metal capable small CNC
09:54 AM methods_: let me know when you find one
09:55 AM methods_: i need one of those too lol
09:59 AM SpeedEvil: Also, it should be under $500 and be able to cut tool steel.
09:59 AM SpeedEvil: The basic problem is that the cost basically doesn't scale.
10:00 AM SpeedEvil: A 4.8" mill motion control system is not 10* cheaper than a 48" one
10:00 AM SpeedEvil: Aals
10:01 AM SpeedEvil: I have idly wondered about a resin printer -> burnout -> steel casting machine.
10:11 AM SpeedEvil: https://www.haascnc.com/machines/vertical-mills/desktop-mill.html - this is almost preciserly shoebox work area.
10:11 AM SpeedEvil: 6*10*1.5"
10:12 AM SpeedEvil: But, it's $9K or so.
10:13 AM SpeedEvil: And 140kg
10:14 AM SpeedEvil: I'd buy one tomorrow at $900.
10:14 AM SpeedEvil: But, thart's not happening
10:16 AM SpeedEvil: (people from HAAS, contact me if you disagree)
10:18 AM transhumanist: ok so we are looking at 9K
10:18 AM transhumanist: thats better than 40 -50-80k
10:21 AM transhumanist: I figure , maybe wrongly, but that I can build an 80k mill out of parts made with a 9k mill and a regular old bridgeport or something
10:23 AM SpeedEvil: A hammer, file, and a clue can go a long way.
10:24 AM SpeedEvil: Very rough castings can be milled into moderately accurate structures, which can then be scraped into really, really precise tooling in a home-shop class environment
10:26 AM transhumanist: I think building a mill from that level requires a lot of skills, which are not easy to find
10:26 AM SpeedEvil: There are books.
10:26 AM SpeedEvil: As always, it's a trade of time to $
10:27 AM SpeedEvil: https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Milling-Machine-Build-Metal-Working-ebook/dp/B00ROBHT3E and seq
10:33 AM * Loetmichel bought Battletech on steam sale on saturday.
10:34 AM Loetmichel: ... played the first 6 missions in close succession... "where did the weekend vanish???" :-)
10:46 AM transhumanist: thanks SpeedEvil
10:54 AM unterhaus: I forget if I have any of my gingery books still
10:55 AM * Loetmichel is still in the gingery yahoo groups
10:55 AM Loetmichel: ... not much traffic there these days though
11:23 AM sensille: i recently start seeing "Radius to end of arc differs from radius to start" increasingly often
11:24 AM sensille: cam is f360
11:25 AM sensille: is that a known issue?
11:25 AM dirty_d: I've never seen it
11:26 AM sensille: it goes away when i load the same file again
11:27 AM dirty_d: interesting
11:28 AM dirty_d: oh
11:29 AM dirty_d: I bet in one case you were in G90.1 and after G91.1 etc
11:30 AM dirty_d: is G90.1 or G91.1 in the file anywhere?
11:35 AM sensille: https://pastebin.com/rxiRUruA
11:35 AM sensille: it complains about line 18
11:40 AM sensille: it complains again when i start the program: https://i.imgur.com/hh3N8Wr.jpg
11:41 AM sensille: and after that the x position is messed up by 6.071mm
11:44 AM dirty_d: you have a probe move problem before that
11:46 AM sensille: ignore that
11:50 AM Thorhian: So my stepper drivers have an enable pin to turn them on. I'm trying to figure out what I should do in terms of wiring to my Mesa 7i76.
11:51 AM dirty_d: sensille, the only way I can make it give me that error is if I try running the gcode from the middle of the file instead of from the beginning
11:51 AM Thorhian: Does the 7i76 only enable it's 5V line on its stepper driver when LinuxCNC says so, or do I need use some of the 7i76's GPIO to enable the stepper driver?
11:51 AM dirty_d: can you ever get the error to happen if you click the reload current file button, then run it?
11:54 AM sensille: dirty_d: i got it on first load, but not on second. after that i got it on first run. haven't tried a second, because the x pos is borked
11:54 AM sensille: i don't understand where the 13.371 comes from
11:55 AM pcw_home: most step drives have a _disable_ so should work unconnected
11:57 AM sensille: dirty_d: unfortunately i've loaded a different file in between, but now i can run it
11:58 AM Thorhian: Hmmm, I'm a quite a noob when it comes wiring digital electronics pcw_home. Would you help me understand what the pins in question do if I sent you a link to the manual?
12:00 PM sensille: well, it's running now. but i'd really like to understand where it comes from. losing the position during programs is bad
12:00 PM pcw_home: You can but for most low end step drives, I would just wire drive PUL+ to 7I76 +5V, drive PUL- to 7I76 STEP- and similar for direction
12:01 PM pcw_home: and leave ENA+ and ENA- unconnected
12:03 PM Thorhian: Yeah, after the 7i76 I ended up just wiring PU+ to 5v and PU- to STEP- on the 7i76. I am also doing that for the drivers DR pins. Technically this driver has what they call MF (+ and -) pins.
12:03 PM Thorhian: pcw_home: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/download/Y-serie-closed-loop-driver.pdf
12:04 PM Thorhian: I have the CL57Y.
12:04 PM Thorhian: after reading the 7i76 manual I mean.
12:06 PM Thorhian: I'm not sure how to handle the MF pins :/
12:06 PM pcw_home: most users ignore them
12:08 PM Thorhian: I guess I will ignore them for now and see if the motor will run.
12:08 PM dirty_d: how come when I git checkout 2.8, git describe shows v2.7.15-3940-ga12e34b05?
12:08 PM pcw_home: it should, in all step drives I have seen the are disables not enables...
12:12 PM sensille: dirty_d: i probably did not paste enough: https://pastebin.com/bxMaTv2W
12:12 PM sensille: the move continues over the next lines
12:30 PM dirty_d: sensille, I still can't get the error to happen running it over and over
12:30 PM dirty_d: is there anything you can do to reproduce it every time?
12:36 PM sensille: probably by restarting linuxcnc
12:36 PM sensille: i will try after the program is finished
12:38 PM dirty_d: sensille, the starting position of the arc on line 18 should be X6.7 Y37
12:39 PM dirty_d: in the error it shows X as being 13.371
12:40 PM dirty_d: I'm not sure how that could happen besides if you started the file on line 18 with the machine's position being whereever it happened to be
12:46 PM skunkworks: pcw_home: http://electronicsam.com/images/greenmachine/Screenshot%20-%2005162020%20-%2004:45:27%20PM.png
12:47 PM skunkworks: that is with accelleration set at 40in/sec^2 - iirc
12:47 PM skunkworks: (pwm out of mesa card -> amc drives that take pwm)
12:47 PM skunkworks: Other than a bit noisy - it seems pretty darn good.
12:48 PM pcw_home: thats a servo system not a stepgen?
12:48 PM skunkworks: yes
12:48 PM skunkworks: sorry - servo system
12:49 PM skunkworks: the spike is .00008"
12:49 PM pcw_home: Quite good, do you have encoder DPLL sampling?
12:50 PM skunkworks: Hmm - I don't remember. I would have to look. I remember first playing with it on this machine.
12:50 PM skunkworks: But I don't remember were i left it.
12:52 PM pcw_home: it mostly seems like control noise (encoder sampling time noise would be proportional to velocity)
12:54 PM pcw_home: and you have a large wide noise spike at 0 velocity ( stiction or some reversal asymmetry )
12:54 PM skunkworks: sure - it is a small lathe with small motor..
12:55 PM skunkworks: *servos. It is geared down pretty good.
12:55 PM pcw_home: largest spikes are at start/end of acccel ( infinite jerk points )
12:56 PM pcw_home: ( as you would expect )
12:57 PM pcw_home: quite impressive
01:02 PM sensille: dirty_d: closed linuxcnc, reopened it, homed. after loading: error. reload, no error. start: same error
01:08 PM sensille: full file: http://djfk.net/back_short_body.ngc
01:24 PM pcw_home: works for me, but what is tool size in case this is radius comp related?
01:42 PM dirty_d: shouldn't be, theres no G41/42 in the file
01:43 PM methods_: why do you have g19 in there?
01:43 PM methods_: then g17 on the next line
01:45 PM sensille: dunno, lead-in?
01:45 PM sensille: tool size is 3mm
01:45 PM dirty_d: I didn't get the error this time either
01:46 PM dirty_d: sensille, did you get the same coordinates in the error?
01:46 PM sensille: i think so
01:46 PM dirty_d: very weird
01:47 PM dirty_d: what kind of setup changes have you made?
01:49 PM sensille: i'm not aware of any. f360 probably updated
01:49 PM W1N9Zr0: try comparing the "active g-codes" on the mdi screen when you first start linuxcnc to the ones after the error message stops showing up
01:49 PM dirty_d: I don't think it's that because I'm running the same gcode
01:54 PM W1N9Zr0: I find these kinds of "works after other files" type of errors are usually related to some modal command, tool offset, or coordinate system change
01:54 PM W1N9Zr0: maybe your tool table has an offset in X for that tool for some reason?
01:58 PM W1N9Zr0: N50 G43 enables tool offset, and then there's no mention of X until the N75 arc command that errors, so that would be my guess: T1 has X offset of 6.071
02:03 PM sensille: oh wow, you're right
02:04 PM sensille: there must be a key combination to set tool offset which i hit accidentally
02:04 PM sensille: thanks, i would never have found that
02:04 PM sensille: there was also a Z offset, luckily a small one
02:08 PM dirty_d: it's not from probing stuff right?
02:09 PM sensille: it's not
02:10 PM methods_: pcw_home> works for me, but what is tool size in case this is radius comp related?
03:00 PM Thorhian: Lol my Misumi catalog came today. Dang man that thing is THICC.
03:03 PM XXCoder: order couple more and you can make chair out of it?
03:29 PM CaptHindsight is now known as ASaltedBattery
03:38 PM Thorhian: You probably could, but I doubt they would just want to keep sending me more free catalogs when they are thicker than textbooks XXCoder
03:38 PM XXCoder: lol true
03:38 PM Thorhian: XD
03:41 PM syyl: misumi still has a paper catalogue?!
03:41 PM syyl: wtf
03:41 PM syyl: i thought they stopped printing them
03:42 PM Thorhian: Yeah, in fact, they wouldn't let me download the pdf for the mechanical automation catalog (the one I ordered) XD I had to order it in paper back. The thing is a total monster.
03:42 PM Thorhian: Much easier to browse specs too than their website :P
03:42 PM syyl: i like to buy from them
03:42 PM syyl: because they have everything
03:42 PM syyl: but their onlineshop is partialy shitty
03:43 PM Thorhian: I like high quality Japanese products. At least they give you prices on their shop unlike a lot of companies that sell stuff like they do.
03:43 PM XXCoder: i really hate priceless store webpages
03:44 PM syyl: weirdest product misumi sells?
03:44 PM Thorhian: Graphics cards?
03:45 PM syyl: a cardboard one-time use toilett.
03:45 PM syyl: but i cant find it anymore
03:45 PM Thorhian: I'd post a picture of the catalog syyl, but I think you already have an idea of how big they are. Also, that is really weird.
03:47 PM MacGalempsy: anyone having fun today?
03:49 PM skunkworks: always
03:51 PM Deejay: gn8
03:55 PM ASaltedBattery: can hardly contain myself :)
03:55 PM ASaltedBattery: we keep going from 70's to 30's
03:56 PM Thorhian: As in weather temperature?
03:56 PM ASaltedBattery: yes F
03:57 PM ASaltedBattery: not a cloud in the sky to 2 days of downpour
03:57 PM ASaltedBattery: flooding now
03:58 PM unterhaus_: 70F outside now, but looks threatening for rain. Going to go ride my bike on the trainer
03:58 PM MacGalempsy: yuck, where is that transition taking place?
04:01 PM ASaltedBattery: midwest
04:01 PM MacGalempsy: yuck. Hopefully that doesnt hit OK today. We had enough excitement last week
04:01 PM ASaltedBattery: IL/Wi border
04:02 PM ASaltedBattery: some main roads are flooded at underpasses
04:03 PM Tom_L: MacGalempsy, still drillin oil?
04:05 PM ASaltedBattery: oh wow, record 8.25" of rain so far in may and it's only the 18th
04:06 PM ASaltedBattery: should just rename the area to Mosquito Junction
04:06 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
04:12 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
04:14 PM unterhaus_: I used to live in Wisconsin and mosquitos were just insane in the summer. I'm not used to worrying much about them indoors
04:24 PM ASaltedBattery: they always manage to sneak in somewhere
04:34 PM Thorhian: Well, for some reason the HDMI output isn't working again on my RPi4 for some reason :/ It was working fine yesterday lol
04:50 PM ASaltedBattery: HDMI was flaky on raspian and NO heatsink
04:52 PM ASaltedBattery: some people say the Rpi3 and 4 have stable HDMI
04:52 PM ASaltedBattery: i have only seen stable 4K HDMI out on the Rpi4 with a good heatsink and using Gentoo
05:02 PM dirty_d: I have an rpi 4 and a heatsink and no HDMI issues
05:03 PM dirty_d: but I don;t think it would heat up fast enough for you to not at least see the rainbow thing
05:05 PM Thorhian: Well it's got a pretty beefy heatsink and it was working just fine yesterday. SSHing into it shows that the xserver and lighDM are running as well. It's not like it isn't booting. I'm not even seeing the rainbow.
05:05 PM pcw_mesa: My RPI4 with a little stick-on heatsink has been up for a couple months now with no issues at all ( though I am not attempting 4K video )
05:06 PM Thorhian: Yeah I'm only doing 1080P
05:07 PM dirty_d: Thorhian, have you tried other TVs/monitors?
05:07 PM pcw_mesa: neither HDMI ports work?
05:08 PM Thorhian: Yes, It was flaky when I first got it until I plugged it into my TV, and then it started working just fine on my computer monitor until today. The second port doesn't do anything until the first one is used.
05:10 PM snakedGT is now known as snaked
05:11 PM dirty_d: I wonder how ok this will be https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZkypfeDekEUQ3YNG6
05:11 PM dirty_d: I wanna make the angles adjustable
05:13 PM skunkworks: I had one monitor that wouldnt show pi4 output. pretty old samsung tv
05:14 PM Thorhian: I just wish I had another Micro HDMI cable. It could be the cord that is trolling me.
05:17 PM andypugh: dirty_d: I had no idea what it was until I read the filename.
05:17 PM dirty_d: I also wonder if I should even make it, haha
05:17 PM dirty_d: once the pandemic is over, it probably wont get much use
05:18 PM andypugh: It would take up less space and be more stable if the wall was inside the frame. Also possibly more dangerous.
05:18 PM Thorhian: And what do you know, the Pi finally shows up on screen for some reason.
05:18 PM dirty_d: Yea I know, I just didn't wanna be like inside the frame
05:18 PM andypugh: I am not getting much of a sense of scale.
05:19 PM dirty_d: those are three 4ftx8ft plywood sheets
05:19 PM dirty_d: so about 12ft tall
05:20 PM andypugh: How do you plan to join the boards?
05:20 PM dirty_d: I was thinking hinges
05:20 PM andypugh: It’s a lot of piano hinge, but I would expect ordinary hinges to work.
05:21 PM andypugh: Maube gate hinges, T-nuts and bolts?
05:21 PM ASaltedBattery: what is the plywood structure for?
05:21 PM andypugh: dirty_d: https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-4-pronged-tee-nut-m6-x-9mm-10-pack/79359
05:22 PM dirty_d: I already ordered a 100-pack of 3/8" t-nuts
05:22 PM dirty_d: those are the bolts I have with the holds
05:22 PM dirty_d: ASaltedBattery, a bouldering wall
05:22 PM andypugh: That sounds like a good way to mount the hinges too.
05:23 PM dirty_d: yea I could do that
05:23 PM dirty_d: I thought maybe 4 regular door hinges on each joint would probably be enough
05:23 PM dirty_d: or more even, you can get them pretty cheap in 20 packs on amazon
05:23 PM andypugh: I would imagine so. You can hang off a door without breaking the hinges, after ll.
05:23 PM dirty_d: yea
05:25 PM andypugh: Is it going to live outside?
05:25 PM dirty_d: yea
05:25 PM dirty_d: I think pressure treated lumber will be ok
05:26 PM andypugh: I was wondering about Stokboard
05:26 PM andypugh: https://www.solwayrecycling.co.uk/shop/pet-products-equestrian/stokbord/stokbord-black-18mm-8ft-by-4ft
05:27 PM andypugh: Not inexpensive, but simewhat indestructible.
05:27 PM dirty_d: holy crap that's expensive
05:27 PM andypugh: It’s cheaper if you buy 3
05:27 PM dirty_d: 3/4" pressure treated is $35 here
05:27 PM skunkworks: andypugh: how did the tap go?
05:28 PM andypugh: I got distracted.
05:31 PM andypugh: I saw a drill-sharpening guide for the cutter grinders, and remembered I had a bench grinder attachment that isn’t actually much good normally. And wondered if I could moung that in the collet: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ivuvKdKDER16v5zn8
05:31 PM andypugh: The answer is “no” because it is all too long and bulky.
05:32 PM andypugh: So I performed some surgery and found a way to mount it in a different hole, which drops it low enough to meet the wheel correctly. https://photos.app.goo.gl/rmEVYX84wkJdBdUV6
06:06 PM skunkworks: andypugh: heh - what ever works :P
06:19 PM Thorhian: So, something odd is happening. If I plug the HDMI cable into my RPi4 right after I power it up, I have managed to get it to output video.
06:29 PM _unreal_: OMG my ali express orders are still slugging along
06:30 PM _unreal_: atleast one order has left china
06:30 PM _unreal_: The other one THE ONE i WANT still in the sorting what ever
06:30 PM _unreal_: aliexpress
06:37 PM skunkworks: Thorhian: if your power supply is marginal - you might have problems with video output
06:38 PM skunkworks: Thorhian: https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=34061
06:38 PM skunkworks: might have some info too
06:46 PM _unreal_: Thorhian, I almost setup a cnc using a tinkerboard but discovered the thing was WAY to damn finiky
06:49 PM skunkworks: the pi4 seems pretty good.
06:49 PM Thorhian_: Well, I finally managed to get on my raspberry pi and I have my X motor wired up and it's working :D
06:50 PM skunkworks: Thorhian: yay!
06:50 PM Thorhian: Thanks :)
06:51 PM Thorhian: _unreal_: People have had plenty of success with the RPi4, and pcw_home has had plenty of uptime with them along with skunk.
06:52 PM Tom_L: _unreal_, your packages are here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjdpz05u2DY
06:53 PM Thorhian: skunkworks: I have had this weird behavior on RPi's official 3 amp USBC PSU for the RPi4.
06:57 PM Tom_L: yeah if you use it dedicated the rpi4 is a contender
07:00 PM Thorhian: Especially when paired with Mesa cards.
07:01 PM dirty_d: skunkworks, I tried arch linux arm and a 5.4.40 kernel on my rpi4. latency stayed around 50us even with a youtube video playing
07:01 PM Thorhian: Dang son.
07:01 PM dirty_d: could be a fluke though, I didn't run it that long
07:01 PM dirty_d: but on raspbian it went over 100us pretty much instantly if I tried that
07:02 PM Thorhian: Arch doesn't have a ton of stuff preinstalled and probably running in the background.
07:04 PM Thorhian: You are also running a newer RT kernel. There could be better optimizations in the RT schedular.
07:05 PM dirty_d: yea I think if anything it would have to do with changes to the kernel and rt patch
07:07 PM dirty_d: I kinda want to use a usb3 ssd
07:07 PM dirty_d: the sd card is slow as shit
07:07 PM Thorhian: That would be interesting.
07:08 PM Tom_L: make an M.2 hat for one
07:08 PM Thorhian: XD
07:09 PM dirty_d: its probably not worth using an M.2 ssd right?
07:09 PM dirty_d: usb 3.0 would be the limiting factor
07:09 PM Tom_L: not unless you already have one :D
07:09 PM dirty_d: nah, I saw a crappy $30 one on amazon
07:09 PM Tom_L: if it can keep up with lcnc and your program i don't see the need to upgrade anything
07:09 PM dirty_d: but crappy can be excellent compared to SD
07:10 PM Thorhian: Lol, that would require you to make a fake PCI Express interface (or SATA). Good luck even getting 600MegaBytes per second through the GPIO pins.
07:10 PM dirty_d: Thorhian, nah they make usb3.0 m.2 adapter thingies
07:11 PM Thorhian: Well sure, I was refering to Tom's comment though.
07:11 PM dirty_d: ahh
07:11 PM dirty_d: hat
07:13 PM Thorhian: There are legit SBC's with PCIE lanes for M.2 NVMe drives though, like the Rock 4 I believe.
07:13 PM Tom_L: usb3 would be about it. it doesn't have pci
07:14 PM Thorhian: The Rock 4?
07:14 PM Tom_L: it's not gonna cut your chips any faster
07:14 PM Thorhian: Cut your chips?
07:15 PM Tom_L: you _are_ building a mill ehh?
07:15 PM Thorhian: Oh lol you are refering to a milling machine XD
07:16 PM Thorhian: I bet it might in a higher end machine, but for my purposes heck no.
07:36 PM dirty_d: Random write speed 2 IOPS (target 500) - FAIL
07:36 PM dirty_d: I guess I got an underachiever
07:37 PM Tom_L: on the PNY?
07:41 PM dirty_d: nah, it's just an old SD card
07:42 PM dirty_d: the pi4 came with a samsung evo, but it still has rasbian on it
07:42 PM dirty_d: I tested alarm with the shitty card
07:46 PM skunkworks: I got a m.2 -> usb3 converter - it didn't help realtime performance and took a bunch more power..
07:46 PM skunkworks: or was it nvme? whichever.. It might have been slightly snappier..
07:52 PM dirty_d: a bunch more power as in the 3A PSU isn't enough?
07:54 PM skunkworks: yes
07:59 PM Tom_L: hardly worth the effort imo
08:00 PM Tom_L: yeah at least they're kind enough to give you a good ssd
08:39 PM dirty_d: I love it when I give the oven a good 20 minute pre-heat only to find later that the pilot was out
08:41 PM MacGalempsy: sounds like a nice little flareup when it finally ignites
08:42 PM Tom_L: shouldn't be putting out gas if the pilot is out
08:43 PM dirty_d: nah it never flares up
08:43 PM dirty_d: the flow for the pilot is so slow it just dissipates before it can build up
08:51 PM ASaltedBattery: is this an oven for cooking or mass murder?
08:54 PM jymmmm: XXCoder: On YT, is there a keybosrd shortcut for playback speed?
08:55 PM jymmmm: ASaltedBattery: D) All the above
09:20 PM veegee: Ok I'm about to buy a forklift
09:20 PM veegee: Used Hyster 5k
09:21 PM ASaltedBattery: how old?
09:21 PM veegee: ASaltedBattery this one: https://www.kijiji.ca/v-view-details.html?adId=1500940368
09:21 PM veegee: Don't really care, only care that it works and the price
09:21 PM veegee: The problem now is how do I transport it to my location?
09:21 PM ASaltedBattery: until you want to sell it
09:22 PM ASaltedBattery: tiltbed truck
09:22 PM ASaltedBattery: drive it up, roll it back down
09:22 PM ASaltedBattery: how I moved mine
09:22 PM ASaltedBattery: I had a 10K hyster
09:22 PM veegee: Is that something I can drive with a regular licence or do I need to hire a towing company
09:23 PM ASaltedBattery: if you can find a rental
09:23 PM ASaltedBattery: how far do you have to go?
09:23 PM veegee: 25km
09:23 PM veegee: I asked him if he knows how to go about transporting it. His response was "Tilt and load usually around 160."
09:23 PM veegee: No idea what that means
09:23 PM ASaltedBattery: unless you get a good rental rate I'd just tow it on a tiltbed
09:24 PM Tom_L: call a wrecker with a tilt bed
09:24 PM ASaltedBattery: $160 for the hookup and for 25Km
09:24 PM ASaltedBattery: that about what I pay
09:24 PM veegee: Oh ok not bad
09:24 PM veegee: I'll just do that then
09:25 PM ASaltedBattery: I use them to move machines as well up to 20,000lbs
09:25 PM Tom_L: or find a lowboy trailer
09:25 PM ASaltedBattery: https://imagebin.ca/v/2RuHAsYVLA7N right on and off the tiltbed
09:25 PM ASaltedBattery: easy peasy
09:25 PM veegee: I'm just renting a penske truck with a liftgate to load my vertical mill
09:26 PM veegee: Anything larger requires a special drivers licence which I don't have
09:26 PM Tom_L: how much does it weigh?
09:26 PM ASaltedBattery: i use those for small machines
09:26 PM veegee: The mill? 2,500 lbs
09:26 PM Tom_L: and the lift capacity on the lift
09:26 PM veegee: The liftgate is rated for 3,000
09:26 PM Tom_L: k
09:26 PM ASaltedBattery: which means 5K :p
09:27 PM veegee: Yeah they're underrated for safety of course
09:27 PM ASaltedBattery: 3-4x
09:29 PM ASaltedBattery: same as forklifts
09:29 PM ASaltedBattery: you aren't getting your moneys worth if the forklift isn't tilting forward a bit
09:30 PM veegee: ASaltedBattery what do you mean by that?
09:30 PM ASaltedBattery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxouNcZGrE4
09:30 PM ASaltedBattery: woops
09:31 PM ASaltedBattery: he shoukld have lowered it as soon as the trailer pulled away
09:31 PM veegee: I don't understand what you mean by "you aren't getting your money's worth"
09:32 PM veegee: Also the guy in the video is an idiot
09:32 PM veegee: no understanding of basic physics
09:33 PM ASaltedBattery: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/money%27s+worth
09:33 PM ASaltedBattery: an idiom
09:33 PM veegee: Oh you were joking
09:33 PM veegee: I know what the phrase means, I just didn't know you were kidding
09:34 PM veegee: But why should he have lowered it as soon as it pulled away?
09:34 PM veegee: If it's not a stable load, it's not a stable load
09:34 PM veegee: It's the wrong forklift for the job
09:35 PM veegee: The center of gravity is so clearly forward past what the forklift is designed for
09:38 PM tiwake: any of you guys do prints on anodized aluminum?
09:38 PM tiwake: as in, the dye in the anodized aluminum is a printed image of some sort
09:39 PM Tom_L: no but i would think a vinyl adhesive stencil would do the trick
09:40 PM tiwake: herm
09:40 PM tiwake: that wont help with lots of colors
09:40 PM Tom_L: yeah
09:42 PM jymmmm: tiwake: You can laser engrave anodized aluminum super easily
09:43 PM jymmmm: tiwake: Darker colors show up better
09:43 PM tiwake: laser what?
09:43 PM MacG: lasercats
09:43 PM tiwake: oh
09:43 PM jymmmm: laser engraver
09:43 PM tiwake: I don't have one
09:44 PM jymmmm: even a cheap one will do
09:44 PM jymmmm: tiwake: just dont get the one that Tom_L did =)
09:44 PM tiwake: heh
09:44 PM jymmmm: oh wait, I mean XXCoder, not Tom_L.
09:45 PM veegee: ASaltedBattery the ad I linked to you, does that forklift look decent?
09:45 PM veegee: For the price, that is
09:45 PM tiwake: I wonder if the water transfer is just done after anodizing, then just sprayed with a clearcoat
09:45 PM Rab: tiwake, do you want to do it yourself, or do you want it done for you?
09:45 PM tiwake: do it myself
09:46 PM veegee: Those are Canadian dollars by the way
09:46 PM skunkworks: what happened to the guy on here that burned his house down with the laser?
09:46 PM tiwake: I've anodized hundreds of parts in the past, with a bit of decoration (fades, splash...) just not images
09:46 PM ASaltedBattery: veegee: it's just old, so scary when you want to sell it
09:46 PM Rab: tiwake, the process I've read about is true anodizing, in that the ink is sealed in the pores of the anodize layer.
09:46 PM jymmmm: veegee: is that like monopoly dollars?
09:46 PM jymmmm: skunkworks: how?
09:46 PM MacG is now known as MacGalempsy
09:46 PM ASaltedBattery: but being smaller and <$2k makes it easier
09:47 PM veegee: jymmmm kind of, but you can at least buy plastic houses with monopoly money
09:47 PM skunkworks: How - fire?
09:47 PM Rab: tiwake, https://metalphoto.com/
09:47 PM Tom_L: skunkworks, haven't seen him in a while
09:47 PM tiwake: Rab: using the water transfer method?
09:47 PM veegee: ASaltedBattery I'm not worried about selling it, I plan to keep it for a long time
09:47 PM Rab: tiwake, I suspect inkjet.
09:47 PM jymmmm: veegee: true =)
09:47 PM veegee: My use case is strictly hobby use
09:47 PM skunkworks: He had a hanger he moved everyting into iirc
09:47 PM ASaltedBattery is now known as CaptHindsight
09:47 PM veegee: So I'm going for the cheapest thing that works for moving my equipment and stuff
09:48 PM jymmmm: veegee: explosives are cheap
09:48 PM tiwake: Rab: sure, inkjet, but, printed on special paper, put the paper on water and the paper disolves
09:48 PM Tom_L: jymmmm, he stepped out while his laser was going to come back to a fire
09:48 PM CaptHindsight: metalphoto is just monchrome
09:48 PM Rab: Hmm, Metalphoto's examples are B&W...but I've seen color for sure. Maybe a different outfit.
09:48 PM veegee: I don't even leave my vacuum tube amplifier on if I'm not directly within line of sight
09:48 PM jymmmm: Tom_L: ah, yeah, happens a lot actually
09:48 PM Rab: tiwake, inkjet deposited straight onto the metal.
09:49 PM skunkworks: I had no less than 2 fires in the laser that I ran after high school..
09:49 PM skunkworks: both ere pretty epic..
09:49 PM tiwake: Rab: so with a special printing machine
09:49 PM CaptHindsight: tiwake: flat or non-planar surfaces?
09:49 PM jymmmm: skunkworks: And that's why I have a nitrogen fire supression on mine =)
09:50 PM jymmmm: fire + 900CFM exhaust = BIG FIRE =)
09:50 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: for an arcade controller box
09:50 PM Rab: tiwake, I would guess so. But somebody in here--CaptainHindsight?--has experience with inkjet printing onto a variety of solid surfaces, using commodity inkjet cartridges and DIY platforms.
09:50 PM CaptHindsight: inkjet using solvent dye ink
09:51 PM CaptHindsight: silkscreen using solvent dye ink
09:51 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: with special inkjet printer?
09:51 PM CaptHindsight: water transfer does not get into the anodize pores
09:51 PM tiwake: do they make printers that move around instead of moving the medium they are printing to?
09:51 PM CaptHindsight: sublimation transfer
09:52 PM CaptHindsight: tiwake: i make all types :)
09:53 PM Rab: tiwake, https://jorlink.com/machines/color-printers/all-dcs-applications/material-substrates/anodized-aluminum-printing
09:53 PM CaptHindsight: only for planar
09:53 PM CaptHindsight: ^^
09:53 PM jymmmm: Had been running parts all morning, went to the door for 90 seconds to grab a UPS package and came back to this $30K charcoal... https://i.imgur.com/3XLHedY.jpg
09:54 PM Rab: Pretty cool, baseball bat printer: http://www.anodizingindustries.com/Graphic%20Anodize.html
09:54 PM jymmmm: (Not me, someone else)
09:54 PM Rab: Both google results for 'color inkjet anodize'.
09:54 PM tiwake: how much does that cost?
09:55 PM Rab: If you have to ask...
09:55 PM Rab: ...then I don't know. ;)
09:55 PM CaptHindsight: depends on size, speed, number of colors, resolution, planar vs non-planar etc
09:55 PM tiwake: iunno
09:55 PM MacGalempsy: I thought that the other day when my cousin's fiance was selling cookies. I ordered 2 dozen and it was $80
09:55 PM tiwake: something, sane
09:55 PM CaptHindsight: they make cheap Chinese Epson for this starting at a few $K
09:56 PM tiwake: shit thats expensive
09:56 PM CaptHindsight: small solvent flatbed
09:57 PM MacGalempsy: rule is always ask, even if you can afford it!
09:57 PM CaptHindsight: but has to be dye not pigment
09:58 PM Rab: tiwake, what sort of image are you looking for? 600dpi CMYK, or something comparable to silkscreen, or just simple contrasting colors?
09:59 PM tiwake: what is the suggested way for just a few parts? if I'm too cheap to even outsource it
09:59 PM CaptHindsight: are they flat?
09:59 PM CaptHindsight: and thin?
09:59 PM tiwake: Rab: iunno
09:59 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: yes, aluminum sheet
10:00 PM tiwake: I mean, the thing is not built yet... its in conception stage right now XD
10:00 PM Rab: tiwake, have you ever done any kind of masked etching?
10:00 PM CaptHindsight: in Texas https://www.anodizinggraphics.com/
10:01 PM Rab: tiwake, like photolithography, PCB etching, etc.
10:02 PM tiwake: I think I might be better off just doing a vinyl and sticking it on after I anodize it a flat color
10:02 PM tiwake: or something similar
10:03 PM tiwake: hmm
10:03 PM tiwake: Rab: oh, yeah, I did PCB thing once
10:03 PM tiwake: forgot about that
10:04 PM tiwake: was years ago
10:04 PM Tom_L: what about some sort of baked on paint?
10:05 PM tiwake: Tom_L: that would be similar to the water transfer thing,then clearcoat
10:05 PM Tom_L: i stenciled uv paint on some avr programmers i did
10:06 PM Rab: tiwake, it'd be fun experiment to use masking techniques for selective anodizing. Like, photoresist might contaminate the pores, but a series of vinyl masks for several dye colors might work.
10:06 PM Rab: Crude resolution though.
10:06 PM tiwake: and lots of effort
10:06 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/silkscreen/silk_batch.jpg
10:07 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/silkscreen/silk_batch_cure.jpg
10:07 PM Tom_L: fishtank uv
10:07 PM CaptHindsight: cnc airbrush https://imgur.com/a/NYNWYAX
10:07 PM CaptHindsight: https://i.imgur.com/EAF5oPj.jpg
10:08 PM tiwake: now it just needs a proper print head
10:08 PM CaptHindsight: 5-axis inkjet https://i.imgur.com/LOriL1y.png
10:11 PM CaptHindsight: https://imgur.com/a/yAITRos how photographic do you want it?
10:13 PM tiwake: something like that... like a city image or something... artwork will be finalized (likely custom made) once I figure out the shape of the aluminum frame
10:14 PM CaptHindsight: why anodize? scratch resistance?
10:14 PM tiwake: but in the idea phase right now, its either something like that, or a simple two color stencil thing
10:14 PM CaptHindsight: a sign printer in big city can UV inkjet it on sheet
10:15 PM Rab: tiwake, also consider: https://www.frontpanelexpress.com/
10:15 PM tiwake: or cut out shapes and have another slab of anodized aluminum behind the cutout shapes
10:15 PM CaptHindsight: why anodize?
10:16 PM tiwake: Rab: but I'm the machinist! lol
10:16 PM Rab: Not ultra cheap but small quantities; as one might guess from their examples, custom/limited-run synth and music equipment is one of their main markets.
10:16 PM Rab: And quality is reputed to be pretty good.
10:17 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: because, its literally going to be a fancy arcade controller myself, and likely others, will beat on
10:17 PM Rab: tiwake, if your panels could be fiberglass instead of aluminum, you could just get custom PCBs made. Milled and drilled at no extra charge.
10:18 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight, Rab: like this https://www.microcenter.com/product/610469/micro-center-2-player-fight-stick-cabinet---unassembled
10:18 PM tiwake: but aluminum
10:18 PM tiwake: not gay-ass particle wood
10:19 PM Rab: Seems like a lot of "real" arcade game play surfaces were just vinyl label under polycarbonate sheet.
10:19 PM CaptHindsight: UV inkjet and then isocyanate urethane clear
10:19 PM tiwake: I understand some of those words
10:20 PM CaptHindsight: automotive 2K clearcoat
10:20 PM tiwake: with a water transfer of image?
10:20 PM CaptHindsight: sure
10:20 PM tiwake: what is the paper for that called anyway?
10:21 PM CaptHindsight: UV inkjet will hold up better
10:21 PM CaptHindsight: water transfer film
10:21 PM CaptHindsight: it's basically Elmers glue as a paper
10:22 PM CaptHindsight: if it's flat, why water transfer?
10:23 PM tiwake: I might want to include the buttons in the image
10:24 PM Rab: Like the image extends over the buttons?
10:24 PM tiwake: yeah
10:24 PM Rab: ...huh
10:25 PM Rab: That would be some hardcore clearcoat.
10:26 PM tiwake: right now I'm just trying to figure out what is more plausible to make
10:27 PM tiwake: hmm, I'm not seeing a place that sells the blank "paper"?
10:27 PM Rab: OR arcade buttons with a clear removable cap, and a transfer or printout under each button to match the overall graphic: https://www.arcadeworlduk.com/products/Translucent-Arcade-Start-Button-With-Clear-Lens.html
10:27 PM * Rab bedtime
10:28 PM tiwake: Rab: the thing is I was thinking about making the button tops out of aluminum, so they match the rest of the housing
10:28 PM tiwake: should have a better feel too
10:28 PM tiwake: aluminum is always better than plastic :P
10:30 PM tiwake: oh gosh I'm falling asleep
10:31 PM tiwake: 4 hours of sleep, work starts at 5am, wake up at 4, and am at work for 12 hours
10:31 PM CaptHindsight: same here except only worked 30 minutes
10:37 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2020/05/18/colombia-coffin-shortage-coronavirus-pkg-vpx.cnn
11:00 PM skunkworks: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/emco/EmcoCompare.JPG
11:01 PM Tom_L: old vs new?
11:01 PM skunkworks: yes
11:02 PM skunkworks: actually age - I don't know. Steppers vs servos I guess
11:02 PM skunkworks: I cannot remember the encoders on the back.. I think they are 400 line
11:02 PM skunkworks: I think
11:02 PM Tom_L: look like heds series
11:02 PM skunkworks: yes - I think they are
11:02 PM Tom_L: 5000 or 9000
11:03 PM skunkworks: that would put the input scale around 40k
11:03 PM Tom_L: series not count
11:03 PM skunkworks: right - I was saying 400X4
11:04 PM Tom_L: the pair i have are 1024 iirc
11:04 PM skunkworks: x2.5 reduction x 10.16tpi
11:04 PM skunkworks: ugh - I wish I had the configs here
11:04 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/maxbot/image006.jpg
11:05 PM Tom_L: 512 / 2048
11:06 PM skunkworks: hmm - it would have to be higher than that.. I am getting a following error peak of .00008" and the counts would be about .000024"
11:06 PM skunkworks: I thought you needed a good 10 times the resolution
11:06 PM skunkworks: tuning wise.
11:10 PM Tom_L: hmm those are the same res as the one i have on the spindle i think
11:13 PM skunkworks: ah - found the spec - the are 500 line
11:14 PM skunkworks: so 50800
11:15 PM Tom_L: same as the spindle.. just checked one from the shelf
11:16 PM Tom_L: i kinda wondered if it would hold but but it's doing great
11:16 PM skunkworks: so that is still .000019" resolution
11:16 PM skunkworks: I guess I am not complaining
11:16 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/new_pulleys/spindle_enc2.jpg
11:16 PM Tom_L: not designed for that i'm sure
11:16 PM Tom_L: it's got good bearings in it though
11:16 PM skunkworks: Tom_L: wow
11:17 PM skunkworks: these servos don't have an index channel
11:17 PM Tom_L: off some medical equipment focus ring
11:17 PM skunkworks: which is a little sad
11:17 PM Tom_L: those do
11:17 PM Tom_L: i used it for orient iirc a while back
11:17 PM skunkworks: cool
11:17 PM Tom_L: once again the spindle made it difficult to do
11:18 PM skunkworks: heh - some things like to fight.
11:18 PM Tom_L: wouldn't quite get there or it would overshoot
11:18 PM skunkworks: vfd? or dc?
11:18 PM Tom_L: dc
11:19 PM Tom_L: stock sherline
11:19 PM skunkworks: I have a amc amp running the spindle on the little emco.. That is where I stopped working on it.
11:20 PM skunkworks: I need to get a decent spindle encoder shoehorned into it
11:20 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/new_pulleys/new_pulley_mounted2.jpg
11:20 PM Tom_L: that was after i switched from v belt and before i got rid of the old printer encoder
11:21 PM Tom_L: 28? count
11:21 PM skunkworks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vvP4L_hr90
11:22 PM skunkworks: we actually had one of those encoders go bad. The bearings could not handle it.
11:22 PM Tom_L: i keep the belt fairly loose on mine
11:22 PM Tom_L: it's not gonna slip
11:23 PM skunkworks: the bracket that holds it there isn't super rigid..
11:23 PM skunkworks: piece of bent aluminum sheet
11:24 PM Tom_L: gotta be better than my angle aluminum bracket
11:24 PM skunkworks: heh
11:24 PM Tom_L: i need to redo it and add some sort of adjustment to it
11:24 PM skunkworks: most of the time - things just work
11:25 PM Tom_L: i adjust it with washer shims right now
11:25 PM Tom_L: but it doesn't change much