#linuxcnc Logs

Apr 22 2020

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:22 AM XXCoder: roycroft: wow some is pretty agressive
12:27 AM XXCoder: most seem to be just shipping sale
01:29 AM Deejay: moin
03:10 AM Loetmichel: *GNHIHI* That took a while to sink in but i finally understand the "no retreat"... -> https://www.isnichwahr.de/i312562-kein-franzose.html
03:11 AM XXCoder: LOL good one
05:01 AM Loetmichel: Maaaan, boss is evil sometimes... just had a wireles phone ringing here on the desk. answered it: someone wanting my boss. $me "Ok, i will carry you across the company up to his office..."... [wheeeze] arrived there, boss: "thank me, i keep you fit by forgetting my wireless fone!" :-)
05:28 AM miss0r: Loetmichel: Its good for you. :)
05:50 AM jthornton: morning
05:50 AM * Loetmichel is just printing a handfull of respirator masks with toiletpaper as filter... so that the workers here dont get a ticket from monday on when buying grocerys. (germany)
05:54 AM andypugh: So _that’s_ why folk were stockpiling toilet paper?
05:54 AM jthornton: you get a ticket if you go out without a mask?
05:55 AM Loetmichel: jthornton: if you go into a shop or public transport: yes
05:55 AM Loetmichel: 50 eur IIRC
05:55 AM Loetmichel: starting monday
05:55 AM jthornton: but can you get masks?
05:57 AM Loetmichel: nope
05:58 AM jthornton: that's dumb
06:05 AM sensille: sounds like bavaria
06:09 AM jthornton: I guess you could just use a pillow case with eye holes cut out
06:10 AM Loetmichel: sensille: from monday on: all of germany
06:10 AM Loetmichel: and no, i am in hessen
06:14 AM sensille: Loetmichel: not for berlin, afaik
06:14 AM sensille: only for public transport
06:15 AM sensille: berlin and bremen are the exception
06:17 AM andypugh: jthornton: The pillowcase idea remindd me of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cCiuZanl_4
06:20 AM jthornton: lol
06:31 AM BitEvil is now known as SpeedEvil
07:11 AM jymmmm: Loetmichel: could use coffee filters
07:11 AM jymmmm: Loetmichel: and you are PRINTING masks???
07:11 AM jymmmm: Michael Myers style? lol
07:12 AM jymmmm: good morning btw =)
07:18 AM Loetmichel: no, 3M half face respirators style
07:18 AM Loetmichel: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4235243
07:18 AM Loetmichel: the double one
07:22 AM jymmmm: Loetmichel: Out of what material? rigid plastic?
07:26 AM Loetmichel: yes
07:27 AM Loetmichel: will get a silicone rubber seal around the face so you dont have any marks after prolonge use though
07:27 AM Loetmichel: (i have soft silicone rubber "kantenschutz" (edge protector) profiles here
07:28 AM jymmmm: k
07:49 AM jymmmm: Hmmm, HEPA vacuum cleaner bags as filters
07:53 AM JavaBean: why not "high end"/"high merv value" hvac filters?
07:53 AM andypugh: Walk around with a car pollen filter over your face.
07:53 AM rmu|w: jymmmm: do not cut those HEPA filters, they often contain glass fibers.
07:53 AM andypugh: (I know pollen is rather bigger than virii)
07:54 AM jymmmm: rmu|w: Really? good to know =)
07:54 AM jymmmm: I'm still thinking coffee filters
07:55 AM jymmmm: they are already "food grade" water/sweat proof
07:56 AM jymmmm: Hmmm, coffee filters are only 20 micron
07:56 AM rmu|w: i don't think you can breathe through coffee filters
07:56 AM rmu|w: hepa filters don't work like a mesh
07:57 AM rmu|w: sieve
07:57 AM rmu|w: i.e. openings in a hepa filter are much bigger than the particles it is supposed to filter out
07:59 AM jymmmm: Some are just tossing a paper towel in their homemade masks
08:00 AM rmu|w: you should NOT wash or use any solvents on HEPA filters, they change surface-properties and usually decrease filtering efficiency
08:01 AM rmu|w: those masks prevent you from picking your nose and sneezing on other people, which probably is good enough
08:02 AM jymmmm: Eh, I guess I could just wear my P95 mask and talk like Darth Vader
08:02 AM rmu|w: if you need to reuse your p95 mask, you can disinfect it in the oven at 150°C for 2 hours or so
08:03 AM rmu|w: but don't make it wet
08:03 AM jymmmm: 150C is gonna melt/soft the rubber
08:04 AM jymmmm: soften*
08:05 AM JavaBean: there are several ways to "reuse" your p95 filters, it all depends on what the filter is made out of
08:05 AM jthornton: so I ordered a tube of https://www.parktool.com/product/polylube-1000-lubricant-tube-ppl-1?category=Lubricants%20%26%20Compounds to assemble the new crank in the bottom bracket but tracking shows Status Pre-Shipment April 17, 2020 at 1:05 pm Shipping Label Created, USPS Awaiting Item STATEN ISLAND, NY 10307
08:06 AM rmu|w: don't find better link: https://m.box.com/shared_item/https%3A%2F%2Fstanfordmedicine.box.com%2Fv%2Fcovid19-PPE-1-1
08:06 AM jthornton: the response from the seller is thats the correct number, USPS is getting a ton of packages from me and noit scanning them in, we shipped this yesterday or today, dont know what bag it was in, shipping 2000 items a day keith
08:08 AM jymmmm: jthornton: Kinda sounds legit, it should be scanned during transit too
08:13 AM jymmmm: rmu|w: that link says 70c/158F for 10 minutes
08:13 AM jymmmm: err 30 m inutes
08:14 AM sync: or you just throw it in the autoclave
08:14 AM jymmmm: sync: Yeah, I let the dog borrow the autoclave
08:15 AM jymmmm: also says hot water vapr for 10 minutes
08:15 AM jymmmm: vapor*
08:15 AM rmu|w: 30min. 70° is probably enough for most bacteria. virus particles i don't know.
08:16 AM rmu|w: "Authors found
08:16 AM rmu|w: decontamination using an autoclave, 160C dry heat, 70% isopropyl alcohol, and soap and water
08:16 AM rmu|w: (20-min soak) caused significant degradation to filtration efficiency"
08:16 AM rmu|w: seems i messed up farenheit/celsius
08:16 AM jymmmm: IT say DO NOT use alcohol or chlorine
08:17 AM rmu|w: those alter electrostatic properties of the surfaces of the fibers
08:18 AM JavaBean: how about the hydrogen peroxide solution that some hospitals use?
08:19 AM jymmmm: cardboard box and a hari dryer or heat gun
08:20 AM JavaBean: or an incandesant light bulb
08:21 AM jthornton: according to amazon it was shipped Friday the 17th
08:21 AM rmu|w: JavaBean: H2O2 is vaporized AFAIK
08:22 AM JavaBean: yeah, i can't remember off hand right now
08:24 AM jymmmm: I thought peroxide was H2O5 ?
08:25 AM jymmmm: jthornton: Isn't amazon shipping slow as can be?
08:31 AM jymmmm: Hmmm, I think my ultrasonic cleaner heats up to 80c
08:45 AM JT-Shop: other orders arrive as usual
08:59 AM gregcnc: i have an order to ship first class to Italy. recipient says he has no trouble with mail. who knows
01:19 PM unterhaus: does isocpu do anything on rt-preempt kernels?
01:19 PM andypugh: I don’t think so.
01:21 PM andypugh: Or maybe it did, and doesn’t any more, and might again? https://lemariva.com/blog/2018/07/raspberry-pi-preempt-rt-patching-tutorial-for-kernel-4-14-y#isolcpus-optional-245606
01:22 PM nvz: can anyone give me pointers on latency testing? I am going to more extensively test this hardware but idk what the acceptable ranges are or what a good benchmark would be really
01:22 PM nvz: I get the feeling as-is this machine is way too high latency
01:24 PM andypugh: Are you wanting to do software stepping or are you using a Mesa / Pico / GM / Motenc board?
01:25 PM andypugh: (And what numbers are you getting?)
01:25 PM nvz: I'm currently using just a parport board http://nvz.farted.net/cnc/
01:25 PM miss0r: so software :)
01:26 PM nvz: and initially I was at like 11000 or something idle
01:26 PM nvz: I'm hooking it up now.. will see
01:26 PM nvz: without the machien that is
01:26 PM miss0r: nvz: I get a nasty avg warning from that link of yours
01:26 PM nvz: does the latency testing have to be done with the board hooked up?
01:27 PM nvz: well only weirdness I know of is thats a frameset as there are multiple instances running on different ports
01:27 PM nvz: the actual url is debian.boxathome.net:7268 iirc
01:28 PM nvz: its just some basic css and images.. nothing fancy there
01:28 PM miss0r: acording to AVG that is a blacklisted URL... :)
01:28 PM miss0r: never mind, You don't need to hook up the parallel breakout board to run the latency
01:28 PM nvz: ah idk.. free subdomain
01:29 PM nvz: I didnt think so.. I haven't hooked it up as of yet.. its not completely wired
01:29 PM andypugh: 11000 is OK. 50,000 can sometimes be useful.
01:29 PM andypugh: Actually, 11,000 used to be considered very good when I started playing this game.
01:29 PM nvz: I heard people saying it should be more like 3000
01:30 PM andypugh: 110,000 would be a worry.
01:30 PM andypugh: Nah, I have never seen 3000.
01:58 PM Tom_L: andypugh, how long _have_ you been playing this game?
01:59 PM andypugh: I think of myself as a new-arrival on the LinuxCNC scene.
01:59 PM nvz: though when I open some stuff.. like FF it shoots up to jitter of 380949 and 310334ns
02:00 PM Tom_L: i've followed it for quite a long time but only recently started using it
02:00 PM andypugh: But it’s actually at least 11 years.
02:01 PM pcw_home: unterhaus: "does isocpu do anything on rt-preempt kernels?" I think it depends on the cache architecture
02:01 PM andypugh: nvz: That probably won’t work in the long term. You can experiment, and simply not do anything like open FF while the machine is running, but that’s going to cause problems.
02:03 PM pcw_home: I have some systems where isolcpus makes things worse on Preempt-RT and some (RPI3 and RPI4 notably) when it makes things much better
02:05 PM nvz: well obviously.. but I thought the point was to test it with stuff running
02:06 PM andypugh: nvz: Yes, indeed. I am saying that there is no reason you should give up on seeing some motors twirl, but you will need to find an improvement in the latency
02:07 PM nvz: its a Dell Optiplex 780 SFF, Core2Duo E7500 w/ 4GB ram and I currently have a half height AMD video card in it
02:07 PM andypugh: Have you fiddled with BIOS settings at all?
02:07 PM andypugh: Is there onboard video?
02:07 PM nvz: yes but not extensively.. there are a lot of them.. like 8 different modes for the parport alone not to mention other stuff
02:07 PM andypugh: You could try that instead,
02:07 PM nvz: yes, it has onboard video
02:07 PM nvz: I'd bought this card with the machine cause it was said that onboard video would likely make it slower
02:08 PM andypugh: pcw_home: might have more detailed suggestions about what to do in the BIOS.
02:08 PM andypugh: The advice to avoid onboard video seems somehow entrenched. I have never used anything else,
02:08 PM pcw_home: Make sure all power saving/turbo modes, C states > C1 are disabled
02:09 PM andypugh: Where did you find that advice? Maybe we can delete it?
02:09 PM pcw_home: WIKI probably
02:09 PM Tom_L: i've always used onboard video
02:10 PM pcw_home: Ive also never used a separate video card (except to run hazzy/VTK on an older MB)
02:11 PM nvz: this is my dmesg output on this machine http://termbin.com/xmbsr
02:11 PM Tom_L: i would think onboard would be better suited than an add on since it was put there by design
02:11 PM nvz: seems odd to me it says in the version string PAE then right at the top related to the NX bit it says it is NOT a PAE kernel
02:12 PM pcw_home: Yeah I think the Wheezy RTAI kernel is named wrong
02:12 PM andypugh: This page mentions that onboard video might be a problem: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Hardware_Requirements But the top of the page also says “this info is 12 years out of date”
02:13 PM Tom_L: heh
02:13 PM nvz: yeah well this machine is about 12 years old :P
02:13 PM nvz: and the whole linuxcnc software stack is dated too :D
02:13 PM nvz: Wheezy is like 5 years behind or so.. and thats in DEBIAN time :P
02:13 PM andypugh: Yes, we know.
02:14 PM pcw_home: But this is LinuxCNC so 12 year old information is about 20 year old motherboards..
02:14 PM andypugh: I have spent my 3 weeks of isolation doing almost nothing other than trying to get 2.8 out the door on Debian Buster.
02:14 PM Tom_L: and doing a fine job of it too...
02:15 PM nvz: yeah this machine is on sid currently my other laptop is on buster
02:15 PM nvz: I'd went to sid to see what the latest DEs had to offer.. the changelogs were more impressive :P
02:15 PM andypugh: nvz: DO you want to try LinuxCNC on Sid?
02:15 PM nvz: multihead still sucks for the most part and there isn't a wm woth a shit :D
02:16 PM andypugh: I think that the debs here might work: www.linuxcnc.org/temp
02:16 PM nvz: andypugh: not particularly.. why you need help testing stuff?
02:16 PM nvz: only machine I have I can use is this 780 SFF the USFF which I also have, doesnt have a parport
02:16 PM nvz: and as of right now I got your wheezy build on this SFF
02:16 PM andypugh: Well, Wheezy is 2 years out oflong term support. It is getting awkward to use.
02:16 PM nvz: yeah well I been a user and supporter of debian almost two decades so I know how that is
02:17 PM andypugh: Have you read the stuff on this page? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TweakingSoftwareStepGeneration
02:18 PM nvz: no spent most my time on the machine building side of things
02:18 PM nvz: only now starting to figure out the other side
02:18 PM andypugh: That page is also old (it references “new for LinuxCNC 2,2,2”
02:18 PM nvz: really we need only finish wiring it up, put the belt tensioners on, the x axis motor mount, and put the belts on and hook it up
02:18 PM andypugh: With Wheezy - RTAI you might want to try isolcpus
02:18 PM nvz: its mostly done now
02:19 PM nvz: never heard of that
02:19 PM andypugh: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?The_Isolcpus_Boot_Parameter_And_GRUB2
02:20 PM nvz: yeah I figured it was a kernel option, just not one I'm familiar with
02:20 PM pcw_home: this is what I have: quiet splash processor.max_cstate=1 idle=poll isolcpus=1
02:20 PM andypugh: Basically hide a CPU core from the rest of the system so that RTAI can have it full time.
02:20 PM nvz: yeah that makes sense I guess
02:21 PM nvz: I currently have a similar thing going on with this laptop.. though accidentally :P
02:21 PM nvz: I had compiled a 5.x kernel for this and only recently realized I only have 2 threads working
02:21 PM nvz: I apparently set the cpus too low in the config for my i5-4300u
02:22 PM nvz: I guess I can try this stuff out and try it without the Radeon HD 3470 in there
02:22 PM nvz: I did already disable most stuff seemed extra like the cstates and crap
02:22 PM nvz: I wonder if it'd be worth the aggrivation to find PS2 input and disable the USB
02:23 PM andypugh: no
02:25 PM nvz: I had a USB wifi thing in there.. but as of right now I just turned the ethernet back on and got it wired to my laptop
02:25 PM nvz: when its actually in use it wont need network but its handy for getting logs right now
02:26 PM nvz: I need to test all the various parallel port settings.. cause there are like 8 different modes in the bios
02:28 PM andypugh: nothing much to be gained there. just set to epp
02:28 PM nvz: under performance (dell branded graphical bios with mouse support) it shows Multi Core Support, Intel SpeedStep, C States Control and Limit CPUID Value, the Multi Core Support is the only one I have enabled
02:28 PM nvz: the virtualization is all turned off
02:29 PM nvz: I have video set to onboard/card instead of auto, says if it detects a card it'll disable the onboard
02:29 PM nvz: nic was disabled, I turned it back on to post that dmesg, usb controller is on, serial port is disabled..
02:30 PM nvz: have misc devices Front USB, Real Dual USB, Rear Quad USB, Audio, and PCI Slots.. have the front usb and audio disabled
02:31 PM nvz: the parport I have Disable, AT, PS/2, EPP, ECP No DMA, ECP DMA1, ECP DMA3, and then an address setting 378h, 278h, 3BCh
02:31 PM nvz: its currently on 378h and ECP w/ no DMA
02:32 PM nvz: TMP is disabled, CPU XD is enabled OROM protection is enabled, computrace is activated and can't seem to be turned off..
02:35 PM andypugh: For LinuxCNC use the setting hardly matters, except that some ports drive a bit higher current in EPP mode.
02:36 PM andypugh: As an experiment I just tried the grub options that PCW suggested on my dev machine.
02:37 PM nvz: well all I changed was turning the ethernet off and the parport to ECC and now at boot without anything else running my max jitter is 20078 and 11306
02:38 PM andypugh: This machine runs at about 15000 normally. I rebooted and in the grub enu selected the kernel I wanted, pressed “e” for edit and put the idle / cstates / isolcpus things in then F10 to carry on.
02:38 PM nvz: I would assume since its in bold on this test, the jitter is whats important
02:38 PM andypugh: I got a servo latency of 600 and a base of 800.
02:38 PM andypugh: (Though that went up to 3000 with a web brower and Youtube)
02:39 PM nvz: ns?
02:39 PM andypugh: But now I have gone back because this machine spends all day compiling, not running hardware
02:39 PM andypugh: yes, nS
02:39 PM nvz: cause all the values on this are in ns and none are less thhan 5 digits
02:39 PM nvz: never seen any lower than 5 digits :P
02:40 PM * nvz reboots with the kernel options
02:40 PM andypugh: Yes. I haven’t seen 3-digit latency before either.
02:40 PM nvz: you seemed to just be saying 3 and 4 digit numbers :P
02:41 PM andypugh: lscpu
02:41 PM andypugh: Oops!
02:42 PM * nvz boots the RTAI kernel with the 3 boot params added
02:42 PM andypugh: I suspect that this machine is a fair bit like yours too: Model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-3220T CPU @ 2.80GHz
02:42 PM nvz: well mine is a Core2Duo E7500
02:42 PM wellindex: i got one of those
02:42 PM wellindex: 2.80
02:43 PM nvz: O.O
02:43 PM nvz: well now it says for max jutter 1444 and 2852
02:43 PM wellindex: running preemt 4.19.90 on mint
02:43 PM nvz: without anything else running
02:43 PM andypugh: Mine is one of these all-in-ones intended for the educational market. I wanted something I could put in a cupboard easily..
02:43 PM andypugh: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RM-ONE-214-Core-i3-All-In-One-PC-3-30GHz-4GB-500GB-Win-10-Pro/174101991539?hash=item2889499073:g:2jsAAOSw0Udd1W5j
02:44 PM nvz: though opening OO.o and FF causes it to shoot up to 398478 and 371811 :P
02:44 PM pcw_home: With onboard video?
02:45 PM nvz: no still using the AMD Radeon HD 3470
02:45 PM andypugh: That does sound like something you could blame a video driver for.
02:45 PM pcw_home: I'd dump that
02:45 PM nvz: but now with EPP, no ethernet, and the 3 boot params you suggested
02:45 PM nvz: people were rather insistant months ago that onboard video would slow shit down :P
02:46 PM nvz: I haven't tested it yet.. but I'd gotten this cheap video card for that reason :D
02:47 PM wellindex: is there a RTAI live iso
02:47 PM pcw_home: parallel port settings will not affect latency (though EPP is suggested for the reason Andy mentioned)
02:47 PM nvz: I don't think FF and OO.o are a fair benchmark.. but I know they're both heafty.. lots of JS involved.. good way to quickly demonstrate the fecal matter impacting the air circulation device's propeller
02:48 PM pcw_home: wellindex: there's the old Wheezy ISO
02:48 PM nvz: pcw_home: well I could try it again.. but I got double the latency with only the ethernet on and parport in ECP with no DMA
02:48 PM nvz: I can try leaving the ethernet off and going back to ECP just to see :P
02:48 PM nvz: but it certainly seemed like it had a performance impact on this latency test
02:49 PM pcw_home: if you have Ethernet make sure you disable AMT (if its an option)
02:49 PM nvz: idle latency anyhow.. the loaded SHTF latency seems to be about the same
02:49 PM nvz: I just have the ethernet disabled right now
02:49 PM wellindex: im runnig your mesa stuff cause of poor latancy but i was forced to upgrade
02:50 PM pcw_home: My guess would be the video card/driver being bad
02:50 PM * nvz shuts down to remove the video card
02:50 PM andypugh: I winder if you need to acctually remove the video card to not have the driver active?
02:50 PM nvz: will need to go get a VGA cable too probably..
02:51 PM nvz: well should be able to set it to auto in bios, hook monitor to onboard and just unload drivers
02:51 PM nvz: but just as simple to shut down and take it out.. dells are screwless
02:52 PM pcw_home: Not a dell but I have had decent latency with a DC7800 (same vintage and same Intel video on board)
02:53 PM nvz: hmm apparently onboard has a dp port too..
02:54 PM nvz: what I find curious is, when I booted this the first time.. using straight DP->DP it said the res wasn't compatible on my monitor.. but doing a DP->HDMI adapter it works
02:55 PM nvz: I'd bought two Lenovo T2324p monitors for $170 for the two of em.. they have VGA,DP,HDMI
02:55 PM nvz: you'd never guess my user/pass for this :P
02:56 PM nvz: same as the hostname.. linuxcnc :D
02:56 PM nvz: well now just booting it says 20506 and 11261 so.. its much higher without the video card
02:57 PM pcw_home: but what happens when you launch FF?
02:57 PM nvz: it was 1444 and 2852 before
02:57 PM nvz: wow.,.
02:57 PM nvz: I just launched FF, no change.. then OO.o and GIMP. stil no change
02:58 PM nvz: so is that higher base latency without the changing better?
02:58 PM nvz: or should I still try using a video card but focus on the bugs?
02:59 PM nvz: after closing FF, OO.o, and GIMP the base thread jitter is up to 15012 but thats not much change
02:59 PM pcw_home: Its decent and usable, ~300 usec is not
02:59 PM nvz: the servo thread is still same
03:00 PM nvz: but you'd say that a higher overall latency that is stable is better than one that jumps?
03:00 PM pcw_home: jumps will stall a step motor
03:00 PM nvz: I mean I have nothing to compare this to.. with voltages.. I'd rather have my voltages in a computer high/low but stable
03:00 PM pcw_home: its the peak latency that matters
03:01 PM nvz: yeah.. well the peak is stable and more than 10x lower without the video card
03:01 PM nvz: its higher base latency with nothing running.. significantly higher..
03:01 PM nvz: but it seems to be stable and not change with load
03:01 PM pcw_home: now, you may be able to avoid whatever video operation triggers the huge latency spikes with the add-in video card, but maybe not...
03:02 PM pcw_home: its the peak latency that matters
03:02 PM andypugh: Did you put the grub options back in when you rebooted?
03:03 PM andypugh: But, 15k is perfectly OK, You can comfortably step at 20kHz with that.
03:03 PM nvz: ah no.. forgot about that
03:03 PM * nvz reboots
03:03 PM nvz: it'll probably be better with those
03:04 PM nvz: shoulda put em in /etc/default/grub
03:04 PM andypugh: It’s only worth making them permanent if they work.
03:05 PM nvz: they showed a strong improvement with the video card..
03:05 PM nvz: we'll see without in a minute here..
03:06 PM nvz: looks about the same on first boot.. 20245 / 11644
03:07 PM nvz: opening VLC, FF, OO.o, GIMP, holding at 20339 and 14430
03:07 PM nvz: so its fairly close
03:08 PM andypugh: Seems odd that the grub options worked before and don’t work now.
03:08 PM nvz: guess those settings mitigated the Video issue
03:08 PM nvz: but arent really helping much
03:08 PM pcw_home: isolcpus=1 will slow userland a bit so may not be worth it if the dont make a big improvement in latency
03:09 PM nvz: it did with the video card.. but without its fairly negligible
03:10 PM nvz: well.. guess I have no use for this video card then.. its not a very good card
03:10 PM nvz: it was like $10 or something idk..
03:10 PM pcw_home: The other question is what latency do you need? Not much point in endless tweaking if it will generate the motion you need
03:11 PM nvz: I was just trying to make sure it was within acceptable ranges before I actually hooked it up
03:11 PM pcw_home: probably an OK card just not for real-time
03:11 PM nvz: didnt wanna be figuring out preliminary stuff once the machine was all hooked up
03:11 PM nvz: wanted to know in advance if I should be looking to a parport card or mesa
03:12 PM nvz: initially I bought a cheap spindle and small laser for it.. we got no experience with this crap so we're not gonna be doing much anyhow until we figure it all out
03:13 PM nvz: idk even the basic stuff like how to set profiles for the two different tools as I plan to mount the spindle center and the laser beside it
03:13 PM nvz: and the tool offsets will be different depending on which tool is being used
03:40 PM andypugh: Well, you can have tool offsets in X and Y so that’s covered easily.
04:43 PM tiwake: I'm getting ready to request 3-phase installed in my shop from the electric company
04:44 PM tiwake: I can fit maybe 3-4 machines in it if I'm careful...
04:44 PM tiwake: how many amps at 480v do I want?
04:46 PM Rab: tiwake, depends on your machines. A 20HP VMC might need 30A or more.
04:47 PM tiwake: hmm
04:47 PM tiwake: like a haas VF2
04:48 PM tiwake: thats a 30hp main spindle
04:48 PM tiwake: 60hp is ~4,500 watts
04:49 PM rmu|w: 45kW
04:49 PM tiwake: so that would be 10 amps
04:49 PM tiwake: at 480 volts
04:49 PM tiwake: for 60hp
04:49 PM tiwake: am I doing this right?
04:51 PM rmu|w: https://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/kW_to_Amp_Calculator.html
04:52 PM tiwake: https://www.haascnc.com/machines/vertical-mills/vf-series/models/small/vf-2.html
04:52 PM tiwake: says full load is 35amps at 480v
04:52 PM tiwake: shit thats a lot of power
04:52 PM tiwake: lol
04:52 PM tiwake: alright
04:54 PM tiwake: I'll put 150 amps down... its a pulldown menu
05:03 PM Deejay: gn8
05:10 PM gregcnc: have you talked with someone at the poco?
05:11 PM Tom_L: also, when they put my bud's 3phase in they put monitors on it for a month or so to make sure it was clean and stable for the cncs
05:11 PM Tom_L: at least something to consider..
05:13 PM tiwake: gregcnc: yeah, they said to fill out the application thing
05:13 PM tiwake: when I first switched the service to my name when I bought the property they said I could get 3-phase put in no problem
05:14 PM gregcnc: i guess it varies by location, but it can be expensive
05:15 PM Tom_L: yeah they had to bring it in for my bud. that took quite a while to happen
05:15 PM gregcnc: not install, but service
05:15 PM Tom_L: right
05:16 PM gregcnc: sometimes you get install for free if it's close enough and will be using enough, sometimes install is also a fortune
05:17 PM Tom_L: he just had to somewhat prove useage
05:31 PM tiwake: the service is already there
05:31 PM tiwake: its just 220 single phase
05:31 PM tiwake: I want the three phases :3
05:33 PM gregcnc: industrial unit/building?
05:35 PM tiwake: its a 25'x25' steel building
05:35 PM tiwake: and its already set up as a business account
05:41 PM tiwake: shit... this is pretty big discount... https://www.haascnc.com/Community/Events/Spring_Promo/us-can/Dallas-Showroom-Machines.html
05:42 PM gregcnc: who is going to buy now?
05:43 PM tiwake: I... am kind of considering it actually
05:44 PM tiwake: though its still cheaper to get a used one
05:44 PM tiwake: ...probably
05:45 PM tiwake: a VF-2 should barely fit in the shop door
05:45 PM tiwake: shop door is 8' tall
05:45 PM Tom_L: gregcnc, if you have the need and means now would be a great time
05:46 PM gregcnc: if you not paying a note, sure
05:46 PM Tom_L: tiwake, i remember my bud's first cnc, he had in his garage for a while. actually had to cut the celing out to fit the Z axis motor
05:47 PM Tom_L: they took the motor off to get it in the door
05:47 PM tiwake: the celing is tall enough... 10'+
05:47 PM Tom_L: his wasn't
05:47 PM Tom_L: not the first one
05:47 PM tiwake: its the door that is only 8'
05:47 PM tiwake: 10' wide
05:47 PM tiwake: so lots of room really
05:48 PM tiwake: a VF2 in its standard shipping package should be able to fit
05:49 PM Tom_L: the local vo'tech gets their haas free in trade for being a 'show and tell' for buyers
05:49 PM Tom_L: and a load of simulators
05:49 PM tiwake: I would love that kind of deal
05:49 PM tiwake: lol
05:50 PM Tom_L: no kidding
05:50 PM Tom_L: they're all small ones but still
05:50 PM Tom_L: some have cradles
05:50 PM tiwake: I mean, regardless of the product... if I use it I promote the snot out of it...
05:51 PM tiwake: like OSG or whatever... even lawnmowers (grasshopper is amazing)
05:51 PM Tom_L: i've had the same snapper for over 25 yrs
05:52 PM tiwake: I had a first generation haas VF1
05:52 PM tiwake: it still makes parts
05:53 PM Tom_L: after my bud sold his business he bought back (scrap price) his first couple tree machines
05:53 PM Tom_L: is still making parts for the company on them
05:53 PM Tom_L: he had to replace a couple bearings and a servo but they're still goin good
05:54 PM tiwake: right
05:54 PM Tom_L: i think last year his vfd pooped out
05:54 PM tiwake: capacitors wear out
05:55 PM Tom_L: the ppl that bought him out don't take very good care of their stuff
05:55 PM tiwake: though I've never tried it, replacing capacitors might just fix the problem
05:56 PM tiwake: shit thats a good price for a CNC mill
05:56 PM gregcnc: I have a VFD that takes forever to wake up after pluggin in.
05:56 PM tiwake: the VF2... brand new
05:57 PM Tom_L: make sure they're the same type
05:57 PM Tom_L: low esr etc
05:57 PM tiwake: ..?
05:57 PM tiwake: oh
05:58 PM tiwake: I even have a shellmill waiting for mill to be used in
05:59 PM tiwake: 4" maritool shellmill
05:59 PM tiwake: my work cut back to 40 hour weeks
05:59 PM Tom_L: nice
05:59 PM tiwake: still working though, making parts
05:59 PM Tom_L: govt contracts?
05:59 PM tiwake: no
06:00 PM Tom_L: that's why my kids still are working
06:00 PM tiwake: only have a few thousand saved up right now though
06:00 PM tiwake: and I still need to buy a garage door
06:00 PM tiwake: well, shop door
06:00 PM tiwake: that will cost $800
06:01 PM kyle_again: ah yes hello
06:01 PM kyle_again: forgot how IRC worked for a moment there
06:01 PM tiwake: fail
06:02 PM kyle_again: I was wondering if anyone around here had a surface grinder that I could buy a few minutes of their time on
06:02 PM jthornton: what do you need?
06:03 PM kyle_again: just need some steel bar flattened up so I can embed it in epoxy granite to use as a base for ball bearing rails
06:03 PM jthornton: what kind of steel?
06:03 PM kyle_again: I don't know of any machinists around me, and given the state of the world right now, I figured it'd be just as easy to hire it out
06:03 PM kyle_again: well I have some mild steel bar
06:03 PM kyle_again: but cast iron would probably be slightly better
06:03 PM jthornton: aye
06:04 PM jthornton: machining them flat should be sufficient for that job
06:04 PM jthornton: but what size bars are you talking about
06:05 PM jthornton: and where in the world are you located at?
06:05 PM kyle_again: nothing too big, the stuff I have now is around 50mm wide, 10mm thick, and ~500mm long
06:05 PM kyle_again: north central florida
06:07 PM jthornton: 0.040" thick won't stay flat...
06:07 PM kyle_again: indeed it wouldn't
06:09 PM kyle_again: might be exaggerating one of those dimensions by 25% or so, but it's decently thick stock
06:42 PM jdh: north central florida is my favorite place
06:42 PM tiwake: the other question is
06:43 PM tiwake: do I fix house first or buy machine shop stuff first
06:43 PM jdh: priorities.
06:44 PM tiwake: merf
06:47 PM kyle_again: lol, for the fishing, jdh?
06:49 PM Tom_L: tiwake, aren't you supposed to fix the house up right before you sell?
06:49 PM tiwake: Tom_L: what?
06:49 PM tiwake: why would I sell my house
06:49 PM tiwake: ...I just bought it
06:49 PM Tom_L: do I fix house first or buy machine shop stuff first
06:50 PM jdh: kyle_again: springs
06:50 PM Tom_L: my vote is shop
06:50 PM kyle_again: ah fair
06:50 PM kyle_again: I'm outside crystal river so I get easy access to springs with manatees in them in the winter, it's quite nice
06:50 PM jdh: high springs, branford, mayo, alachua
06:50 PM kyle_again: other than that it's a pretty boring place but that suits me just fine now
06:50 PM jdh: chassahowitzka
06:50 PM kyle_again: ah yes I know some of these names
06:51 PM jdh: north-north-central!
06:53 PM kyle_again: yup sounds like it
06:53 PM kyle_again: I should get around to checking some of those out when this lockdown stuff is past
06:55 PM kyle_again: been occupying myself with a 3D printer, just got it printing for the first time today
06:55 PM kyle_again: built it from scratch for some stupid reason
07:00 PM tiwake: Tom_L: the house foundation needs to be leveled so its flat again, the plumbing is all steel lines so that needs to be redone too
07:01 PM tiwake: after that its a bunch of smaller things... kitchen counters and sink need replacing and windows need replacing
07:01 PM kyle_again: I understand your conundrum now, sounds pricey
07:01 PM Tom_L: the shop will make money though. the house will cost money
07:01 PM tiwake: a lot of the stuff I'd do myself
07:02 PM tiwake: but as it sits everything is "fine"
07:02 PM kyle_again: married? I'd imagine that tips the scale towards the house if so
07:02 PM tiwake: nop, nor kids or anything
07:03 PM tiwake: not that I would mind getting married and making little baby machinists
07:03 PM andypugh: kyle_again: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Starrett-54971-3-8-x2-1-2-x24-498-Low-Carbon-Precision-Ground-NIP/133091293570?hash=item1efcdbf982:g:g5cAAOSw54hdDBNx
07:03 PM andypugh: (Or, to put it another way, you can buy “ground flat stock” in many sizes, and it’s tool steel.
07:04 PM kyle_again: ah see, that's the real reason I came back here
07:04 PM kyle_again: you know, I think you might've sent me that back in 2016 and I was looking for it again but was having trouble finding it
07:04 PM kyle_again: thank you
07:08 PM andypugh: Actually, an easier way to get the right size:
07:08 PM andypugh: https://www.mcmaster.com/tool-steel/tight-tolerance-multipurpose-oil-hardening-o1-tool-steel-sheets-and-bars-7/
07:09 PM andypugh: Or https://www.mcmaster.com/tool-steel/tight-tolerance-multipurpose-air-hardening-a2-tool-steel-sheets-and-bars-7/
07:10 PM kyle_again: oh, nice, I probably should've looked past the smallest sizes before dismissing that
07:10 PM andypugh: Thoigh if you don’t care _that_ much about dimensions, the oversize is probably cheaper.
07:10 PM kyle_again: yeah, I just care about having a flat enough surface
07:12 PM andypugh: They have quite a range. https://www.mcmaster.com/tool-steel
07:12 PM tiwake: kyle_again: companies like starret make and sell precision ground bars too
07:12 PM kyle_again: on a similar note, I was wondering if anyone here had opinions on embedding a welded mild steel framework inside an epoxy granite structure
07:13 PM andypugh: My eBay link was to some Starret :-)
07:13 PM kyle_again: ... then again, I've heard epoxy and mild steel don't mix well in terms of thermal expansion
07:13 PM andypugh: kyle_again: to provide mechanical mounting points?
07:13 PM kyle_again: yeah
07:14 PM kyle_again: something to keep relative positions of flat surfaces to mount rails to
07:14 PM andypugh: It would be one way to get all the mounts in the right place. Perhaps you could make it deliberately not very stiff to counter the thermal expansion effects.
07:15 PM kyle_again: true
07:15 PM kyle_again: I've seen someone do it with an aluminum framework but it was for a pick and place machine and his epoxy "granite" seemingly consisted of epoxy, sand, and black dye... so hm
07:16 PM unterhaus_: I think the epoxy machine bases just have inserts for bolts, no structure. But I'm not sure about that, been a while
07:16 PM tiwake: Tom_L: I think I'm going to ultimately skip the haas sale, and when I'm actually ready, look for a good used machine
07:17 PM unterhaus_: When I went to IMTS a couple of years ago, they had one of the Nanotech bases
07:17 PM kyle_again: yeah, that's my impression of how the pros have been doing it
07:17 PM tiwake: but shit that is some good prices
07:17 PM Tom_L: i saw one sitting outside a shop here the other day
07:17 PM Tom_L: probably scrap
07:22 PM tiwake: :(
07:22 PM tiwake: take it and rebuild with linuxCNC
07:22 PM Tom_L: i wish i had room
07:22 PM Tom_L: it's probably gone by now
07:22 PM kyle_again: heck I'll take it if no one wants it
07:30 PM andypugh: I am liking the Buster file open dialog. You can just type in a filename and it looks all through the current tree.
07:31 PM andypugh: (Unlike in previous versions where it lets you type a filename in the wrong place in a save dialog, for no obvious reason)
07:34 PM skunkworks: http://electronicsam.com/images/greenmachine/IMG_20200422_190242.jpg
07:36 PM Tom_L: is it counting ticks yet?
07:37 PM Tom_L: no... the adjustment screw is missing along with the belt.
07:37 PM Tom_L: err maybe the belt is there
07:39 PM andypugh: That’s a mounting screw, with a phase adjustment. So probably an adjusting screw. I’ll shhut up.
07:43 PM skunkworks: no. not running yet. have to wire a plug yet. going to run single ended initially
07:45 PM ziper: are adjustable reamers any good? that is, should I buy a decent set or just get the cheapest i can?
07:46 PM Tom_L: can't say i've ever used an adjustable one
07:46 PM Tom_L: i typically get reamers as i need tem
07:46 PM Tom_L: them*
07:47 PM Tom_L: not every hole needs a reamer...
07:48 PM ziper: this is for a printed part, i'm trying to do a press fit
07:49 PM Tom_L: what are you pressing?
07:49 PM ziper: a gear on the shaft of a sewing machine
07:50 PM Tom_L: plastic printed?
07:50 PM ziper: yeah
07:50 PM Tom_L: not the best idea if it's plastic
07:50 PM ziper: why not?
07:50 PM Tom_L: is the hole round?
07:50 PM ziper: mostly
07:51 PM Tom_L: you can try it
07:51 PM Tom_L: to get the press tight enough you may crack the plastic
07:51 PM ziper: yeah, thats why I was looking at the adjustable one, I could widen it out until it is perfect
07:52 PM ziper: is it an acceptable method to heat or cool your reamer (or the part while working it) if you need an oversize or undersize hole to the nominal tool diameter?
07:53 PM norias: oh dude
07:53 PM norias: how big is this reamer?
07:53 PM Tom_L: no
07:53 PM ziper: ~13/16
07:53 PM andypugh: It’s not something I have heard of, and can you guarantee that it would stay at temperature?
07:53 PM norias: and how much do you really think it's going to expand?
07:54 PM ziper: work fast ))))
07:54 PM Tom_L: i have heard of honing a reamer if it's cutting too big
07:54 PM Tom_L: slightly
07:54 PM norias: it's like 30 millionths of an inch per inch of steel per degree F
07:54 PM norias: or wait
07:54 PM norias: is it 3 millionths
07:54 PM norias: damnit, i'd have to look
07:55 PM Tom_L: it's common to heat / freeze parts before joining on a press fit though
07:55 PM norias: true
07:56 PM norias: sometimes it takes a lot of heat / freeze
07:56 PM ziper: yeah, but if you froze the receiving part before working it you could get a little more out of it
07:56 PM norias: yeah, in theory
07:56 PM norias: i never tried it
07:56 PM Tom_L: and you only have a short working window at best
07:56 PM norias: you can't assume it would shrink uniformly
07:56 PM Tom_L: i have
07:56 PM norias: so
07:56 PM norias: why ream it?
07:57 PM ziper: I could try with a drill bit
07:57 PM norias: what are you trying to actually accomplish?
07:57 PM ziper: i'm trying to get this gear on the shaft
07:58 PM norias: steel gear on steel shaft?
07:58 PM ziper: plastic gear
07:58 PM norias: oh
07:58 PM norias: different ball game
07:58 PM norias: get it close, jam it on
07:58 PM norias: the plastic will move out of the way
07:59 PM ziper: i don't want to trash the machine
07:59 PM * norias shrugs.
07:59 PM norias: it's a plastic gear
07:59 PM jdh: print another one
07:59 PM Tom_L: it would be best if the shaft had 'teeth' to grip it
07:59 PM ziper: right, but banging it on may hurt something else in the machine
07:59 PM Tom_L: like a spur gear
07:59 PM ziper: Tom_L, it does, kind of
08:00 PM ziper: there is a slot on the face of the shaft
08:00 PM norias: don't bang
08:00 PM norias: push
08:00 PM ziper: the hole is too small and I don't trust my filing skills
08:01 PM jdh: I'd be impressed if a consumer grade 3d printed gear held up to a sewing machine.
08:01 PM norias: yeah but if you ream it close
08:01 PM ziper: jdh, the motor was stalling using the belt, so I went with what I think is a higher reduction gear ratio
08:02 PM norias: it'll just be a closer press fit
08:02 PM norias: if you thought heating the reamer would be enough
08:02 PM norias: it's fine
08:02 PM ziper: the heating thing was just a tangent thought
08:06 PM ziper: I could reprint it but that would take all day and still might not be right. maybe I will soften the center with a solvent and then ram it on
08:19 PM norias: if the reamer is close just use that
08:27 PM ziper: i dont have one
08:28 PM net|: rubegoldberg
08:29 PM norias: oh, well, then
08:29 PM norias: what was all that talk about heating up a reamer?
08:30 PM Tom_L: heh
08:30 PM ziper: theorhetical
08:31 PM kyle_again: why not heat up the thing you want to press in and ram it in
08:31 PM kyle_again: or just find a close enough drill bit
08:32 PM kyle_again: if you can aim for it to be around glass transition temp of the plastic you might just have some luck
08:32 PM kyle_again: maybe print a test piece to try the theory on
08:39 PM ziper: ABS has a cte some 10x that of steel, so i might be in luck
09:05 PM tiwake: Tom_L: yeah, I'm not going to get a machine
09:06 PM tiwake: as much as I want to
09:06 PM tiwake: no three phase power and no official work that I could get for it right this instant
09:07 PM Tom_L: kindof a catch 22 on that part
09:07 PM tiwake: once I get three phase power I'll maybe start looking around for work for such machines a little
09:07 PM Tom_L: now's probably not the ideal time for hunting down new work either
09:07 PM tiwake: but mainly focus on rebuilding the hardinge CHNC first
09:10 PM norias: what kind of machine?
09:29 PM tiwake: haas VF-2
09:29 PM tiwake: or similar
09:38 PM norias: ahh, yeah, the workhorse
09:40 PM norias: i noticed you can get HSK spindles on haas machines now
09:40 PM kyle_again: I don't think it occurred to me just how friggin slow 3d printing really is
09:40 PM kyle_again: I mean, my printer is a little bottlenecked on an underpowered stepper, but damn
09:41 PM norias: lol
10:02 PM kyle_again: I have a confession to make though
10:03 PM kyle_again: I'm not actually using linuxcnc for this 3d printer
10:03 PM kyle_again: though I was thinking about it, since I have a raspberry pi 0w I wanted to use to run the host part of it
10:06 PM norias: say it ain't so, kyle_again !
10:06 PM norias: what will your mother say?
10:06 PM kyle_again: I admit it, I came here to solicit someone
10:07 PM kyle_again: but then andypugh reminded me that you can just BUY ground steel flat bars, what a world we live in
10:09 PM kyle_again: and of course, I chose this irc channel specifically because I had almost the exact same conversation here four years ago but couldn't think of the search terms to use to get those ebay listings
10:09 PM kyle_again: quite a fine community though
10:13 PM norias: hah
10:15 PM tiwake: then why leave?
10:15 PM tiwake: set up ZNC and win
10:20 PM _unreal_: ok running a project finally for work
10:21 PM _unreal_: also got my oil changed in my car :/
10:21 PM _unreal_: didnt want to but all the @#$@#$#@ oil change places are closed
10:33 PM _unreal_: no one around?
10:39 PM norias: ?
10:48 PM _unreal_: wow the difference in precision is VERY clear with the new lead screw nut
10:49 PM _unreal_: so I got an other satellite to take apart.
10:49 PM _unreal_: this one has NICE stepper motors on it and all the stepper motors are STAINLESS :)
11:33 PM kyle_again: dang _unreal_, stainless steppers?
11:44 PM _unreal_: ya?
11:44 PM _unreal_: marine satellite
11:44 PM _unreal_: what do you expect
11:44 PM _unreal_: I get to get my gruby hands on BLDC motors now and then as well