#linuxcnc Logs

Sep 17 2019

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:28 AM Deejay: moin
02:14 AM Loetmichel: *hmpf* i should buy a new "root switch" for @ home. second time in a week that that little logilink 1gbit 8 port switch locked up last night. didnt even had to unplug it this moroning, slight tap on the case was enough to get it to reboot :-(
02:41 AM Loetmichel: hmm, anyone an idea what i configured wrong in linuxCNC so i cant seem to get Samba working?
02:42 AM Loetmichel: its a bit of a hassle to search for an usb-stick to get *.ngcs to the machine if you have a working network connection on the machine already :-(
02:53 AM rmu: don't think you can configure anything in linuxcnc that affects samba
02:56 AM rmu: you could use sftp
02:57 AM rmu: or something like unison or syncthing
03:02 AM Loetmichel: sftp works, but there IS a smb server running in the machine... it just doesent seem to be configured properly
03:03 AM Loetmichel: thats what you get when you let a linux noob configure the system (me) :-)
03:03 AM Loetmichel: btw: there must be something in WD40 that is addiction-inducing... the moment i smell it i am happy ;)
03:30 AM sensille: Loetmichel: childhood reminiscence
04:38 AM jthornton: morning
04:59 AM Tom_L: morning
05:22 AM Deejay: hey
06:59 AM jthornton: when I look at a putube video and they start off with their hands just waving about and pointing fingers I kill it as crap
07:00 AM XXCoder: for me, its face wayy too close
07:00 AM jthornton: that too
07:00 AM XXCoder: I want all shoulders at very least
07:01 AM XXCoder: but honestly if its too much face forget it
07:01 AM XXCoder: depends a lot on what content
07:02 AM XXCoder: for example techolofy connections is a lot of person talking but hes framed with desk, etc and he shows stuff as hes talking usually
07:02 AM XXCoder: so fairly enjoyable
07:06 AM jthornton: any new myfordboy vidoes?
07:22 AM XXCoder: last week I think
07:22 AM XXCoder: oh new one one about lathe, 2 days ago
07:55 AM gregcnc: game over for toy mills? https://www.haascnc.com/machines/vertical-mills/desktop-mill.html
08:01 AM jthornton: lol the control panel is bigger than the mill
08:01 AM gregcnc: i guess it's more interesting that sitting at the panel and watching a sim for training
08:40 AM perry_j1987: looks like my 6040 inside an enclosure kind of heh
08:48 AM * jthornton has a 4" hole through the west wall now...
08:49 AM gregcnc: be careful where you trow the scrapped parts
09:07 AM Loetmichel: gregcnc: i assume it also has Haas prices?
09:07 AM Loetmichel: so not game over for toy mills ;)
09:15 AM jthornton: Loetmichel, do you store your filament any special way to prevent moisture?
09:15 AM Loetmichel: nope
09:16 AM Loetmichel: so far: no problems
09:16 AM jthornton: me neither, just wondering
09:17 AM jthornton: not sure if pla is hygroscopic or not...
09:18 AM jthornton: guess I need to make a focus ring for the c270 it's a bit blurry
10:23 AM GnawingPrintersR: hi
10:24 AM GnawingPrintersR: ,i'm currently evaluating how to retrofit some old 5axis cnc machines a friend has standing around (kavo Everest engine). Main point i dont understand after reading through some of the linuxcnc docs is: how can i control the not small amount of additional "features" the machine has besides its cinematic? Like the Front panel (having 2 byte input on the machine, and 1 byte output to the control). I gues i lack a bit of
10:24 AM GnawingPrintersR: general understanding about the way linuxcnc operates, id be really gratefull if someone could fill me in on some details.
10:30 AM jthornton: really depends on what "features" is exactly for general I/O Mesa cards usually have plenty and if not easy to add tons more I/O
10:31 AM * jthornton goes back to installing the new dryer vent
10:36 AM GnawingPrintersR: not a comprehensive list but some things: air pressure valves to clean of the messurment laser, the <-, pump for the coolant, control valve for the coolant, and so on. All connectors summed up have ~100pins, most of them are basic RS422
10:40 AM GnawingPrintersR: oh wow, the term "mesa card" was what ive been searching for. ty!
10:43 AM GnawingPrintersR: question im still having is: how can i program or confugure behviour such as "the door sensor must show X otherwise certain things are prohibited" or "blow out laser, move to messurment position, move downwards until laser is interupted, read position into tool length calibration, store tool length for further use"?
10:45 AM JT-Shop: https://mesaus.com/
10:46 AM JT-Shop: logic can be done either in HAL or in ClassicLadder (built in PLC)
10:47 AM JT-Shop: usually it's easier to just scrap propitiatory controls and control I/O directly
10:48 AM JT-Shop: the last part is done in G code
11:24 AM GnawingPrintersR: Thanks for the link - im german tho (alrdy found some supliers). The part i gues youre refering to with "proprietary controls" is just some power suply with motor drivers and spindle speed controler + whatever is build into the coolant pump station. Dont think i can come up with something better, so id like to use it. Im looking into the mesa card aproach atm - gues its doable. Could you please sum up whats
11:24 AM GnawingPrintersR: ClassicLadder is, and how it differs from "hal"?
12:18 PM Tom_L: GnawingPrintersR, http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/ladder/ladder-intro.html
12:19 PM Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/ladder/classic-ladder.html
12:20 PM FinboySlick: I remember learning ladder in university and thinking "Why would anyone run that instead of plain functional programming syntax?"
12:20 PM Tom_L: i managed to do mine without it
12:20 PM Tom_L: if it gets too complex ladder might be an easier approach
12:21 PM FinboySlick: Tom_L: In my mind, it always feels the other way around. Ladder is nice until it gets too complex and you get lost in the diagram.
12:22 PM FinboySlick: Though I guess it does force your brain to structure things in what usually is the right way.
12:22 PM Tom_L: i just drew a flow chart of what i wanted then put hal to work on it
12:24 PM FinboySlick: Our example project was to design an elevator with all the features like estop and what not. Was kind of fun.
12:28 PM Tom_L: i wonder how they manage container ships
12:29 PM FinboySlick: With ladder you mean?
12:29 PM Tom_L: however they do it
12:29 PM Tom_L: that would be like a 3d puzzle
12:30 PM FinboySlick: I guess if they didn't it'd be a squeeze to try and load on the deadline so you're the first one off the ship.
12:30 PM Tom_L: and still keep the load balanced
12:31 PM FinboySlick: Nah, they just buy good insurance. You're thinking in pre-2010 terms.
12:39 PM jym: I'm thinking of cutting off the gutter end cap and putting a 4" pipe for a "down spout", any thoughts?
12:40 PM Tom_L: why?
12:40 PM jym: It's just a 2" hole in the gutter and things dam it up
12:40 PM Tom_L: cut a rectangular X in the bottom and attach the pipe to it
12:40 PM jym: Then 6" pine needles won't have a nice flow to them,
12:40 PM Tom_L: bend the tabs out and attach the down pipe to it
12:41 PM jym: But a nice curve would allow things to flow, instead of a sharp 90
12:41 PM Tom_L: it'll plug up anyway
12:42 PM jym: how?
12:42 PM jym: Iteven a pine cone can flow thru a 4" pipe
12:42 PM Tom_L: murphy's law
12:42 PM jym: well, there's that =) It's why I was asking...
12:43 PM jym: The flow of water unobstructed should flush things out
12:43 PM Elmo40: https://i.redd.it/fqcwq1l8kqs01.jpg
12:43 PM jym: lol @ Elmo40
12:43 PM jym: 4" pipe is bigger than the gutter itself
12:44 PM jym: the downspout is a bottleneck the way I see it
12:51 PM jym: https://media.angieslist.com/s3fs-public/styles/widescreen_large/public/downspoutmesh.jpg?itok=mHtwIER5
12:51 PM jym: those dont work, but it shows the 2" downspout on a 4" gutter.... wth?!
12:56 PM FinboySlick: jym: Connect this to the pipe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4weX2rnm24
12:58 PM jym: FinboySlick: gotta get stuff to it, then no problem
12:58 PM GnawingPrintersR: after reading around i gues ill stick to programming, ladder dosnt want to fit with my programmers brain... (my background is databases tho, so im usually comfortable with a big distance to the hardware...)
12:59 PM FinboySlick: jym: Well, I meant to connect it straight to the top of the gutter. Otherwise it would be poor design.
01:00 PM FinboySlick: GnawingPrintersR: Yeah, that's pretty much the effect Ladder has on me too. But like I said, it's a pretty useful tool to force you to break down a control problem.
01:04 PM jym: FinboySlick: I just see the hole in the gutter where the downspout connects to as a bottleneck.
01:07 PM FinboySlick: Instead of a downspout, have the gutter just ramp down for 40' until it hits the ground.
01:07 PM FinboySlick: Just brainstorming terrible ideas here.
01:08 PM FinboySlick: Alternatively, curve the whole thing and turn it into a helix-shape pine needle waterslide.
01:20 PM jym: FinboySlick: I was thinking something like this so it has a smooth transition https://mobileimages.lowes.com/product/converted/611942/611942033584.jpg?size=xl
01:21 PM jym: FinboySlick: But, attached to the END of the gutter
01:23 PM GnawingPrintersR: to wrapp my problems up: does anyone here know of a kinda "complete" in depth tutorial for setting up linuxcnc + a mesa board?
01:51 PM KimK: GnawingPrintersR: No, but here's a NON-in-depth-tutorial (limited to setting up a pendant/MPG), which you might find useful. It uses a parallel port card instead of a Mesa card/cards, but the general principle is the same: (1) Get cards going. (2a) Use HAL (file) to create your components. (2b) Use HAL (file) to wire your components.
01:51 PM andypugh: Does anyone know how to turn on the RTAPI_MSG_INFO printing?
01:52 PM KimK: GnawingPrintersR: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Hooking_Up_A_MPG_Pendant
01:53 PM syyl: miss0r2
01:54 PM KimK: andypugh: I don't know, Andy, sorry.
01:55 PM miss0r2: syyl
01:56 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: yo
01:56 PM syyl: ah youre here
01:57 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: whats a hostmot2 encoder?
02:00 PM KimK: Lcvette: Since Tom_L seems away, I'll say an encoder input channel (hardware & software) provided by Mesa hardware and the hostmot2 firmware/software system.
02:01 PM Lcvette: KimK: is that needed when using the field encoder inputs?
02:01 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: acad_DBhW1XK9J8.png (66KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/GyjCMGbGfewvkekudTQjdWCK >
02:01 PM GnawingPrintersR: KimK: thanks!
02:02 PM KimK: Lcvette: Yes, if you're using Mesa cards to read your encoders.
02:03 PM KimK: Lcvette: Wow, fancy drawing, colorful. What did you use to create it?
02:04 PM KimK: Ha, Oh, AutoCAD, right, duh.
02:04 PM Lcvette: KimK: excel and autocad
02:04 PM Lcvette: or draftsight more accurately
02:04 PM Lcvette: i do the named boxes in excel and the lines in cad
02:05 PM KimK: Oh, Draftsight yes, I was just reading about the flap over it (I'm way late to the party, as usual).
02:08 PM * Lcvette posted a file: XK7130 Main Schematic 7i76 7i77.pdf (84KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/CUVpGWaZCUaezSNJQeWpJTUU >
02:08 PM Lcvette: thats the schematic i did for my machine
02:14 PM Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/drivers/hostmot2.html#sec:hm2-encoder
02:15 PM Tom_L: Lcvette
02:23 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: yup i was reading the hostmot2 section, but im not sure if using the field input section TB7 screw temrinal 1 and 2
02:23 PM Lcvette: supposed to be the encoder section. im not using the actual encoder inputs on the 7i77
02:24 PM Tom_L: what's counting ticks then?
02:25 PM Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/man/man9/encoder.9.html
02:25 PM Tom_L: there's the hal version if you're not using the hostmot2 encoder driver
02:26 PM GnawingPrintersR: to bother you again: what are the differences between using a pci mesa card (5i25) and a pciE card (6i25)? Are there any besides what hardware i have laying around?
02:27 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: image.png (41KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/QwETnIDKwMmFIFiaanuMfsVi >
02:27 PM Tom_L: GnawingPrintersR the pinout
02:27 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: this is what im using on the 7i77
02:27 PM Tom_L: i forget which is which but one is DB25 iirc and the other is a 40? pin header
02:29 PM Lcvette: 6i25 uses the small pcie socket on the motherboard and has something a little faster from recolection of asking Peter the same question
02:29 PM Tom_L: yeah, maybe that's it...
02:29 PM Lcvette: i have a few 6i25's because the pc's i had bought only had the small socket and could not accomodate the 5i25
02:30 PM Tom_L: so they're both 25 pin pinout...
02:30 PM Tom_L: i was thinking of another card
02:30 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: did you see the 7i77 manual reference
02:30 PM Tom_L: yeah
02:30 PM Lcvette: yes both are db25 out
02:31 PM Tom_L: just one is pci and the other is pcie
02:31 PM Lcvette: and both work the same with 7i76/7i77 etc boards
02:31 PM Lcvette: yup!
02:31 PM Lcvette: :D
02:32 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: image.png (128KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/wnhuTPqGalJQWhcBWlooJIRN >
02:35 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: ^^^
02:35 PM Lcvette: is the image coming through from matrix?
02:35 PM Tom_L: yeah i recall that but i've never used it
02:35 PM Lcvette: ah ok
02:36 PM Tom_L: but don't you still have to use certain pins for it?
02:37 PM Lcvette: im severely hal illiterate i have no clue
02:37 PM Lcvette: im jjust trying to get it setup at this point
02:37 PM Tom_L: well it tells you in the first paragraph there
02:37 PM Lcvette: im not even sure how to achieve software mode3 yet
02:37 PM Tom_L: normally on the sserial channel 0 pins
02:38 PM Tom_L: .....
02:38 PM Tom_L: set it in hal?
02:38 PM Tom_L: on mine, using the hostmot2 endcoder module i set it like this:
02:38 PM Tom_L: setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.01.counter-mode 0
02:38 PM Tom_L: setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.01.filter 1
02:38 PM Tom_L: setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.01.index-invert 0
02:38 PM Tom_L: setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.01.index-mask 0
02:38 PM Tom_L: setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.01.index-mask-invert 0
02:38 PM Tom_L: setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.01.scale 2000
02:39 PM Tom_L: you may set yours in the board line of the ini file instead
02:40 PM Lcvette: i only added the hal to the ini
02:40 PM Tom_L: is it working?
02:41 PM Lcvette: have not tested yet im terrified since i hodge podged the hal together from other threads i found on the forum
02:41 PM Tom_L: it's been a while but pcw explained it to me but i haven't used it so i can't recall how it gets loaded or set
02:42 PM Tom_L: heh
02:42 PM Lcvette: and i don't know how to activate software mode 3
02:42 PM Tom_L: i'm thinking on that it may be a line in the ini file but i'm not sure
02:42 PM Tom_L: kinda like you set up sserial etc
02:42 PM Lcvette: im affraid of a runaway axis if something is wrong
02:43 PM Lcvette: ok i will keep hunting
02:43 PM Tom_L: #CONFIG="firmware=hm2/7i43-4/SVST2_4_7I47SS.BIT num_encoders=2 num_pwmgens=0 num_stepgens=4 #sserial_port_0=22xxxxxx"
02:43 PM Tom_L: something like that
02:43 PM Tom_L: but i'm not using those now
02:43 PM Lcvette: ok
02:44 PM Tom_L: but if it's set there, you would put the mode there for the encoder
02:45 PM Tom_L: CONFIG="num_encoders=2 num_stepgens=3 num_pwmgens=1 sserial_port_0=20xxxxxx"
02:45 PM Tom_L: i think that's what i'm using on mine currently
02:45 PM Tom_L: then i setp the encoder values in the hal file
02:46 PM Lcvette: are you using the mpg inputs?
02:46 PM Tom_L: yes
02:46 PM Tom_L: well, i'm using an encoder input
02:47 PM Lcvette: in the gpio
02:47 PM Tom_L: the bit file maps the function to the gpio pins for that
02:47 PM Lcvette: ah not the tb7 input
02:47 PM Lcvette: ok
02:47 PM Tom_L: you can check that with dmesg
02:47 PM Lcvette: for some reason i was warned away from that but don't remember the reason
02:48 PM Tom_L: away from what?
02:48 PM Lcvette: using a regular encoder input for mpg inputs
02:48 PM Tom_L: i use 2 encoders. one for the MPG and the other for the spindle encoder
02:48 PM Tom_L: both are the hostmot2 encoder function
02:51 PM Lcvette: i just saw that i lose inputs 0-3 in software mode 3.. i currently have home/limit switches occupying those temrinals
02:51 PM andypugh: The “sserial_port_0=“ is, indeed, how you set the software mode for the 7i77 card.
02:51 PM andypugh: What is a typical 7i77 pin called in your system?
02:52 PM Lcvette: mine?
02:54 PM Lcvette: andypugh: IDENTIFY Lcvette lt1vette
02:54 PM Lcvette: andypugh: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/VFqFdjpSbm/
02:55 PM Tom_L: Lcvette, Lcvette, Lcvette, you need to know where the functions are mapped to in the bit file so you know where to wire your junk
02:55 PM andypugh: Right. You see that it is 7i76.0.3 and 7i77.0.0
02:55 PM Lcvette: i know, but i wired before i knew i would be using the software mode 3
02:56 PM Tom_L: that encoder function isn't a full blown encoder iirc, he put that there just for MPG i think (could be mistaken)
02:56 PM Lcvette: its for mpg input which is what im trying to use
02:56 PM andypugh: So to set the mode of the 7i76 to 3 it would be sserial_port_0=0030000
02:56 PM Lcvette: 100ppr mpg
02:56 PM Lcvette: wired type
02:56 PM Lcvette: 5v
02:56 PM andypugh: And to set the mode of the 7i77 to 3, sserial_port_0=30000000
02:56 PM Tom_L: i'd believe andypugh over me on this one
02:57 PM andypugh: And to set both, 30300000
02:57 PM Tom_L: ^^ done in that ini config like i showed you
02:57 PM Tom_L: s/like/line
02:57 PM Lcvette: ok inserting now standy by for ubuntu paste
02:59 PM andypugh: But it looks like this config is not reading the config in from the INI, it is explicit in the HAL.
03:00 PM Lcvette: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/XfnSnKxxBf/
03:00 PM Lcvette: i don't see the [CONFIG] section in my ini to put it under
03:00 PM andypugh: No, in your case it is all in the HAL.
03:00 PM Tom_L: each sserial_port can have up to 8? lines if i remember right. that's what the 8 place settings in the sserial parameters is for
03:01 PM andypugh: Can you do us another pastebin, the results of the following commands?
03:01 PM Tom_L: Lcvette, the config line i posted earlier
03:01 PM andypugh: halrun
03:01 PM andypugh: loadrt hostmot2
03:01 PM andypugh: loadrt hm2_eth board_ip=
03:01 PM andypugh: exit
03:02 PM andypugh: That will give a list of all the smart-serial devices and their software modes.
03:02 PM andypugh: (or, it should)
03:02 PM Tom_L: i can never remember it so i use dmesg :D
03:02 PM Lcvette: im on a different comnputer
03:02 PM Tom_L: which may not be as complete a list
03:03 PM Lcvette: that doesn't have that the config onit
03:03 PM Lcvette: but now im even more confused
03:03 PM Lcvette: mine does everythign through hal
03:03 PM Lcvette: and not ini [CONFIG]
03:04 PM Lcvette: so i add: sserial_port_0=30000000
03:04 PM Lcvette: to the hal file?
03:04 PM Tom_L: so in the ini below the line that loads hostmot2 you would put: CONFIG=" sserial_port_0=303xxxxx"
03:04 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/NEW_MILL_2.7/new_mill.ini
03:05 PM Tom_L: take a look where i load hostmot2 and the active config line
03:05 PM Lcvette: my ini has those # out
03:05 PM Tom_L: [HOSTMOT2]
03:05 PM Tom_L: DRIVER=hm2_7i90
03:05 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/vLsjdQDznynmppQqbfmYojPT >
03:05 PM Tom_L: BOARD=7i90
03:06 PM Tom_L: CONFIG="num_encoders=2 num_stepgens=3 num_pwmgens=1 sserial_port_0=20xxxxxx"
03:06 PM Tom_L: yours will be different since it's a different card but the same idea
03:08 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/IdOJeJyfqeHiTpNsHjYWQAMk >
03:08 PM Lcvette: I am using 4 other encoders on the 7i77 encoder inputs
03:08 PM Tom_L: then you would define them in the config line
03:09 PM Tom_L: and define the sserial function to be mode 3
03:09 PM Tom_L: they are 2 separate hostmot2 functions
03:10 PM Tom_L: i also defined my IO_ADDR and/or BOAR_IP and call that in the hal file where i load the hostmot2 driver
03:10 PM Tom_L: just for convenience
03:10 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/oEbXTChTOmcGsfmfBRebQEuZ >
03:10 PM Lcvette: this is in my hal file
03:10 PM Lcvette: i just found it while scanning it by chance
03:10 PM Lcvette: do i just change the sserial
03:11 PM Tom_L: you have 4 encoders right?
03:11 PM Tom_L: change that to 4
03:11 PM Lcvette: 4 axis encoder and a spindle encoder
03:11 PM Lcvette: and adding the mpg
03:11 PM Tom_L: so 5 encoders and an MPG
03:12 PM Lcvette: yes
03:12 PM Tom_L: so change encoders to 5 and sserial to sserial_port_0=3030000x
03:12 PM Tom_L: or whereever the pins are for your mode 3 mpg
03:12 PM Lcvette: can i leave the 7i76 in the mode its in so i don't effect its wiring?
03:12 PM Tom_L: if it's just on the first sserial pins just use the first '3'
03:13 PM Lcvette: 3000000 vs 3030000?
03:13 PM Tom_L: yes
03:13 PM Tom_L: ^^
03:14 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/HhzobxPAGvwcIdNgzxfHtqyB >
03:14 PM Tom_L: each bit defines what that sserial pin will do and there can be up to 8
03:14 PM Lcvette: ok
03:14 PM Tom_L: looks fine i think
03:14 PM Lcvette: \o/
03:15 PM Tom_L: but if you look at mine, i move the BOARD_IP to a define in the ini
03:15 PM Lcvette: so that along with
03:15 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/kNxSCcktQNQgNoFBalhXSFpn >
03:15 PM Lcvette: this in the ini
03:15 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/XZrqTbnZjNdECcLehmstFSdc >
03:16 PM Lcvette: and this is the halfile it pulls up
03:16 PM Tom_L: one sec
03:17 PM Lcvette: k
03:20 PM Tom_L: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/zcdKpJDsmN/
03:21 PM Tom_L: wait a sec, i forgot something
03:22 PM Lcvette: k
03:22 PM Tom_L: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/YXfhXHhvN9/
03:23 PM Tom_L: i added the BOARD_IP and/or the IO_ADDR depending on which board i'm testing with
03:23 PM Tom_L: in my case the 7i90 and 7i80 are identical except for the pc interface
03:23 PM Lcvette: im reviewing
03:23 PM Tom_L: so i use one to test with in the house and one on the actual mill
03:24 PM andypugh: Tom_L: I think that moving the config from the HAL to the INI is just going to complicate things here.
03:24 PM andypugh: All that really needs to be done is to edit that one line in the HAL file.
03:24 PM Tom_L: well yes
03:24 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/dsiHAGyJfxVDWfQahaWXmysM >
03:25 PM Tom_L: i was just showing you can define the board_ip etc as well and include it on the loadrt line
03:25 PM Lcvette: so this is all that is needed then?
03:25 PM Tom_L: pretty sure, yes
03:25 PM andypugh: Shold be
03:25 PM Lcvette: ok
03:25 PM Lcvette: i am a simpleton
03:26 PM Tom_L: with all that fancy wiring chart etc? please.....
03:26 PM Lcvette: think andypugh deduced that...lol
03:26 PM Lcvette: that is the only way i could sort it out..lol
03:27 PM Lcvette: and remember how it was wired
03:27 PM Lcvette: thank god i did it because otherwise i'd be lost
03:27 PM Tom_L: i just define the board etc so i can use a generic load line
03:28 PM Lcvette: i don't understand what that means
03:28 PM Tom_L: you understand what a define is in C right?
03:28 PM Tom_L: same idea
03:28 PM Lcvette: im truly a dumb dumb when it comes to the workings of the loading stuff
03:28 PM Lcvette: no
03:28 PM Tom_L: ok just use what you've got
03:29 PM Lcvette: i know ZERO coding except once in a while getting lucky making changes in python code from the gui project
03:29 PM Tom_L: in the end, it's just personal preference anyway
03:29 PM Lcvette: ok
03:29 PM Lcvette: phwew
03:29 PM Tom_L: they do the same thing
03:30 PM Lcvette: ok
03:30 PM Lcvette: so ytou said my hal looks reasonable
03:30 PM Lcvette: for the mpg
03:30 PM Lcvette: ?
03:30 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/HcKJRAlLBMyKOeAFRMIsligE >
03:31 PM Tom_L: untested i can say "sure does" and be dead wrong :)
03:31 PM Tom_L: but it does look pretty close
03:32 PM Tom_L: except you didn't define the rotary axis movement
03:32 PM Lcvette: ok... i am just looking for a place to be somewhat confident to turn the machine on and begin the testing phase
03:32 PM Lcvette: oh
03:33 PM Tom_L: i think anyway...
03:33 PM Lcvette: i need to relocate my home/limit inputs to pins that won't be affected by the software mode 3 switch on the 7i77 and then will try it
03:33 PM Tom_L: i'm not using any rotary axis so i'm not sure how to define the 'counts' or units for it
03:34 PM Lcvette: i don't have the rotary axis' connected currently just xyz
03:34 PM Tom_L: be close to the red button!
03:34 PM Lcvette: INDEED!!!!!
03:34 PM Lcvette: i will be online here when i do the testing
03:34 PM Tom_L: i will be hiding behind andypugh
03:35 PM Lcvette: HAHAHAHAA
03:35 PM Lcvette: i will set the speeds low
03:35 PM Lcvette: and start with all axis in the middle after homing using the gui jog before trying the mpg
03:35 PM Tom_L: check for things like wired backwards etc so - goes where it's supposed to as does +
03:35 PM Lcvette: will report in after rewire
03:35 PM Lcvette: :D
03:36 PM Lcvette: good idea
03:36 PM Tom_L: i marked them on my pendant
03:36 PM Lcvette: you mean the direction of the mpg wheel?
03:36 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/pendant/pendant2.jpg
03:37 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: VectorImage_2019-09-17_043158.jpg (23KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/YYThiCsKkaWCSHWXAVinlelt >
03:37 PM Tom_L: i should make a new face for it. i was also testing the depth of engraving bits there
03:38 PM Tom_L: yep
03:38 PM Lcvette: this is the radio wireless pendant
03:38 PM Lcvette: im excited to try it
03:39 PM Tom_L: hope it works in the noisy environment
03:39 PM Lcvette: me too
03:40 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: makes Lcvette nervous now
03:40 PM Lcvette: :o
03:40 PM Tom_L: have you been using the mill?
03:40 PM Lcvette: ok going in for wire work
03:40 PM Lcvette: no
03:41 PM Lcvette: im getting everything prepped to load the new gui as soon as hazzy updates the release to the latest version for installation
03:41 PM Lcvette: have alot of testing coming up
03:41 PM Tom_L: good luck
03:41 PM Lcvette: the pendant, the atc etc
03:42 PM Lcvette: thank you
03:42 PM Lcvette: once its installed i have several work projects desperately waiting
03:42 PM Tom_L: what cad are you using?
03:42 PM Lcvette: fusion
03:43 PM Lcvette: why?
03:43 PM Tom_L: just wondered
03:43 PM Lcvette: how about you?
03:43 PM Tom_L: everybody seems to have problems when it comes down to cad cam
03:44 PM Tom_L: i've got some old software i used when i was programming
03:44 PM Tom_L: smartcam
03:44 PM Lcvette: problems?
03:44 PM Lcvette: :o
03:44 PM Tom_L: none
03:44 PM Tom_L: i've done a few mods to it
03:45 PM Lcvette: what typer problems for fusion do you know of?
03:45 PM Tom_L: made a macro to do single point threads for example
03:45 PM Tom_L: i don't use it so i dunno
03:45 PM Lcvette: ah ok
03:45 PM Tom_L: i loaded it once
03:45 PM Lcvette: i remember the threading vids you did!
03:45 PM Lcvette: got the speed up
03:45 PM Tom_L: somewhat
03:46 PM Tom_L: i don't need to go that fast even if it can
03:46 PM Lcvette: so long as there isn't an issue spitting out code from fusion (there is a linuxcnc post for it but have not used it) hoping to not have that become an obstacle
03:46 PM Tom_L: my kids laugh at my little mill now
03:46 PM Tom_L: they both got jobs at a cnc place
03:47 PM Tom_L: most of the parts they make have to be loaded with a crane
03:47 PM Lcvette: hahahaha
03:47 PM Lcvette: thats awesome
03:48 PM Tom_L: he told me last night one guy got fired for ruining a 250k Ti forging
03:48 PM Lcvette: yeah that doesn't sound like a slap on the wrist op error
03:48 PM Lcvette: wow that had to hurt
03:49 PM andypugh: Sounds harsh, unless it was deliberate.
03:49 PM Tom_L: i'm sure there were factors leading up to it
03:50 PM Tom_L: they seem rather lenient
03:52 PM Lcvette: thank you both Tom_L and andypugh for your help with this!
03:52 PM Lcvette: will report back
04:04 PM andypugh: He’s not back. So either it’s working, or he is stuck in the machine out of reach of the e-stop.
04:05 PM jdh: I have one machine where the e-stop doesn't kill air. should probably fix that
04:06 PM Deejay: gn8
04:12 PM Tom_L: jdh, does the air hold the tool in the spindle though?
04:23 PM jthornton: damn the dryer vent is in and the washer is prepped to install... I too tired to do any more today
04:39 PM jthornton: and I just fixed the chicken coop door by rebooting the Rpi...
05:00 PM tiwake: Tom_L: who was it that was suggesting to look at siglent scopes?
05:17 PM mozmck: tiwake: probably a lot of folks. I have an SDS 1202X-E and it seems pretty good.
05:20 PM tiwake: mozmck: do you think its better than a rigol?
05:21 PM mozmck: tiwake: the reviews I read seemed to indicate that it was. I don't know if they have come out with better scopes, but the siglent was better and cheaper a year ago or so when I got mine.
05:21 PM tiwake: mozmck: I don't see yours listed on the website...
05:22 PM tiwake: oh wait
05:22 PM mozmck: I believe it uses a Xilinx Zync chip which made it easier to do a lot of things.
05:22 PM tiwake: here it is https://siglentna.com/digital-oscilloscopes/sds1000x-e-series-super-phosphor-oscilloscopes/
05:22 PM mozmck: https://www.siglent.eu/sds1202x-e.html
05:23 PM tiwake: oh, euroland
05:23 PM mozmck: That is just the link I found. I'm in TX
05:24 PM tiwake: oh what part?
05:24 PM mozmck: Near Sherman, McKinney
05:25 PM tiwake: DFW area
05:25 PM tiwake: I'm in the lubbock area :3
05:25 PM mozmck: Yes, about a hour N of Dallas
05:25 PM mozmck: https://forums.xilinx.com/t5/Xcell-Daily-Blog-Archived/EEVBlog-s-teardown-of-499-Siglent-1104X-E-DSO-4-channels/ba-p/811320
05:27 PM JT-Shop: hey mozmck what's up?
05:27 PM mozmck: Hi JT-Shop! Been way too busy.
05:27 PM tiwake: I should build a list of people in linuxCNC in texas that I need to meet
05:27 PM JT-Shop: I know that feeling, working my ass off and getting no where fast
05:28 PM _unreal_: one part to remill and with luck will be correct. and one part to ether "MAKE" by facing a starboard I have down to the right size OR
05:28 PM _unreal_: finding scrap which I have not yet
05:28 PM _unreal_: sigh
05:28 PM mozmck: JT-Shop: fix one thing, 3 more break etc.
05:29 PM mozmck: tiwake: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/375/
05:29 PM mozmck: tiwake: At least one guy at the end of that thread things Rigol software and quality is better. I haven't had any problems with mine though.
05:29 PM tiwake: wait is that matcat from ##guntalk?
05:30 PM tiwake: I'm going to ask him
05:36 PM tiwake: oh gosh the beer is good
05:36 PM tiwake: and yes, same guy
05:37 PM Tom_L: tiwake, it was Rab
05:37 PM Tom_L: 09:11 PM Rab: tiwake, I've been looking at Siglent scopes, particularly SDS1104X-E. Slightly more expensive than Rigol, somewhat better performance, hax available for certain models IIRC.
05:38 PM tiwake: <tiwake> MatCat: is this you in the thread? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/fpga/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/375/
05:38 PM tiwake: <MatCat> tiwake: I am MatCat on EEVBLOG
05:38 PM tiwake: <MatCat> I am MatCat everywhere
05:39 PM andypugh: Phew! I was way behind on the forum, and then took a week off… Just managed to catch up.
05:39 PM tiwake: Tom_L: oh derp, you were answering my question
05:40 PM Tom_L: afk a while, just catching up
05:46 PM _unreal_: took a week off.. HOW DARE you...
05:58 PM Lcvette: andypugh: Tom_L : i just got everything rewired and updated the hal file and added the mpg.hal file to the config folder and tried to test it, but nothing happens
05:58 PM Lcvette: any ideas from looking at the mpg.hall file if anything there jumps out as needing to be fixed?
05:59 PM Tom_L: did you add the mpg.hal to the ini file list?
06:00 PM Lcvette: yup... but he wrong ini file
06:00 PM Lcvette: lol
06:00 PM Lcvette: thanks!
06:00 PM Tom_L: in [HAL]
06:00 PM Tom_L: HALFILE =
06:00 PM Tom_L: carry on...
06:02 PM flyback-: BMCC
06:02 PM _unreal_: LCV SO IT WORKS NOW?
06:05 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: image.png (62KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/utVlDcmknHJKOHDISVJziOfe >
06:05 PM Lcvette: _unreal_: not yet
06:05 PM Tom_L: is the ethernet on the right port?
06:06 PM Lcvette: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/6NrGqHx4cw/
06:06 PM Lcvette: thats the halfile its referring too
06:07 PM _unreal_: Lcvette, i'm getting my work bed setup to cut this https://drive.google.com/open?id=10MLBQXee-33djBb4kWd6c-Wew7gYVnKX
06:07 PM Lcvette: the oinly changes i made to an otherwise running machine were to the hal file and adding the mpg.hal new file and adding that to the ini
06:07 PM Lcvette: so all should be working correctly and only be an issue with anything new
06:07 PM _unreal_: did you back up those files?
06:08 PM Lcvette: i just ran the machine a few maniutes ago and it was perfect
06:08 PM _unreal_: have you restarted linuxcnc just for haha's?
06:08 PM Lcvette: yes\
06:08 PM Lcvette: always restart linux after config changes
06:08 PM Tom_L: are all those axis defined?
06:08 PM Tom_L: [axisX]
06:08 PM Tom_L: section
06:09 PM Tom_L: comment out the ones you don't use or don't have
06:09 PM Lcvette: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/DVSTdgvZMd/
06:09 PM Lcvette: thats the main halfile
06:09 PM Lcvette: i did
06:10 PM Lcvette: that was the first error i got and removed the 4th and 5th axis
06:10 PM Tom_L: i would start in reverse. comment out until you don't get errors then figure out what line triggers it
06:11 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/WfQaTRXfZoEeNjxpfhwHbBql >
06:11 PM Lcvette: this is after removiong the axis im not using
06:13 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: maybe it needs to be joint.0 instead of axis.0 for master?
06:13 PM Tom_L: i'm not sure. i did mine before joint exhisted
06:13 PM Tom_L: worth a try
06:14 PM Tom_L: net mpg-x axis.0.jog-enable <= hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.005.in_not
06:14 PM Tom_L: looks the same as mine
06:14 PM Tom_L: i'd leave it alone
06:15 PM Tom_L: i'd look for something else
06:15 PM Tom_L: oh
06:15 PM Tom_L: i'm not sure about the syntax on the 2 lines above that
06:16 PM Lcvette: yes?
06:16 PM Lcvette: see something?
06:16 PM Tom_L: just a sec
06:17 PM Tom_L: no nevermind
06:17 PM Lcvette: is it a naming issue between the main hal and the mpg.hal?
06:17 PM Lcvette: because i don't understand that relationship at all
06:17 PM Tom_L: i would put all the loadrt in the main ini though
06:18 PM Tom_L: may affect how things get loaded
06:19 PM Lcvette: what does that line do?
06:19 PM Tom_L: phone...
06:19 PM Lcvette: the 7i76 is the step output for the servos
06:19 PM Lcvette: k
06:20 PM Tom_L: loads the function
06:20 PM Tom_L: or instances of it
06:20 PM Tom_L: load realtime
06:21 PM Tom_L: i put all the addf lines just after those too
06:21 PM Tom_L: all together in the main hal
06:21 PM Tom_L: i doubt it's your issue but it's still a good idea
06:22 PM Lcvette: Hal line order you mean?
06:22 PM Tom_L: yeah
06:22 PM Tom_L: look at mine
06:22 PM Lcvette: Ok cool I'll change
06:22 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/NEW_MILL_SHOP_2.7/new_mill.hal
06:23 PM Tom_L: i'm not sure about your error
06:23 PM Tom_L: but i'd comment stuff out until it loads and go from there
06:24 PM Tom_L: looks like most of yours is already there
06:24 PM Tom_L: did you post your ini?
06:29 PM Lcvette: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/ZW687mXdYp/
06:29 PM Lcvette: ini files
06:29 PM Lcvette: file*
06:29 PM Tom_L: does it load if you comment out the HALFILE=mpg.hal ?
06:29 PM Lcvette: yes
06:29 PM Tom_L: ok
06:29 PM Lcvette: it would load without the m,pg.hal file
06:29 PM Lcvette: but mpg didn't do anything
06:29 PM Tom_L: well it wouldn't
06:29 PM Lcvette: everything else worked fine
06:29 PM Lcvette: homed etc
06:29 PM Lcvette: right
06:29 PM Tom_L: so let's fix the mpg file
06:29 PM Lcvette: lol
06:31 PM Tom_L: are you running 2.7 or 2.8?
06:31 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/open?id=10MLBQXee-33djBb4kWd6c-Wew7gYVnKX
06:31 PM Lcvette: this is the x axis section from the preconverted hal file
06:32 PM Lcvette: it says axis in places and the new one replaces with joint
06:32 PM Tom_L: ok
06:32 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/xwACQwWUdvwjWPLywabmqNNy >
06:32 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/GSGJunZcBtobWnAxtAwuccPZ >
06:32 PM Tom_L: same file it appears
06:32 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/UUKuiRkrWSHdnWRvLacqVqnu >
06:32 PM Lcvette: new hal
06:33 PM Lcvette: [AXIS_0] became [JOINT_0]
06:33 PM Tom_L: yeah
06:34 PM Tom_L: so you're running 2.8
06:34 PM Lcvette: 2.9
06:34 PM Tom_L: well aren't you special!
06:35 PM Lcvette: ```chris@cpe-2606-A000-FEC8-3700-0-0-0-7:~$ linuxcnc version
06:35 PM Lcvette: LINUXCNC - 2.9.0-pre0-613-g4cd952ff9
06:35 PM Lcvette: lol
06:35 PM Lcvette: i am special when it comes to hal
06:35 PM Lcvette: hahahaha
06:36 PM _unreal_: Lcvette, "what seems to be the problem DAVE"
06:37 PM _unreal_: OMG 20k lines of code so far milling this top section
06:37 PM _unreal_: my motion controller does not like the high volume
06:38 PM Lcvette: i dunno what code
06:38 PM Lcvette: link said no preview
06:38 PM Lcvette: its not my code is it?
06:38 PM Tom_L: i'm trying to find the axis.x. variables
06:39 PM _unreal_: no.... sigh
06:39 PM Lcvette: ok
06:39 PM _unreal_: Lcvette, never mind
06:39 PM Lcvette: what copde is 1001.nc?
06:39 PM Lcvette: k
06:39 PM _unreal_: its something i was showing its part of a project I'm working on
06:39 PM Lcvette: oh cool
06:40 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/open?id=19VlY8azpnC9eZ7JNq42H4jq3nAH1Qj13
06:40 PM _unreal_: Lcvette, this https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bEtuf4uRFn4xw0Ak_PECo-5kZgzVa_jk
06:40 PM Lcvette: _unreal_: cool
06:41 PM Lcvette: neat machine
06:41 PM _unreal_: I drew it
06:41 PM Tom_L: i think the error is above that line
06:41 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: above?
06:41 PM Lcvette: should i remove the joint thingies roucish said to put in?
06:42 PM Tom_L: no, for now just ## those axis.x lines
06:42 PM Tom_L: and see what happens
06:42 PM Tom_L: 3 lines
06:42 PM Tom_L: the error will likely move
06:43 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: image.png (62KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/WQxRdBjXWqmmOcDIPoyuOLkB >
06:44 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: ^^^
06:44 PM Lcvette: ## those out and go again?
06:44 PM Lcvette: ##
06:45 PM Lcvette: ```##
06:45 PM Tom_L: for now
06:46 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: image.png (144KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/NceeReiypqwwGgRfbzgIkhfI >
06:46 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: ^^^
06:46 PM Tom_L: same error
06:47 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: Screenshot_2019-09-17_19-41-48.png (63KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/wgyLiOGYoRCuYRUIYYygSxTK >
06:47 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: sorry fixed
06:48 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, these bits are amazing
06:48 PM Tom_L: so something above this is wrong
06:48 PM _unreal_: so remember iw as having so much trouble with the starboard
06:48 PM Tom_L: causing the error to follow your ## commented lines
06:48 PM Lcvette: ok
06:48 PM _unreal_: I'm doing a 26mm plunge and 4mm movement and this bit is handling amazingly
06:49 PM Tom_L: for now comment out the joint lines
06:49 PM Tom_L: see what that does
06:49 PM _unreal_: branted were are talking a 5% step over rate
06:49 PM _unreal_: after it got past the first pass its doing great
06:49 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: ok
06:50 PM _unreal_: AND I'm getting no melting
06:50 PM Lcvette: same error message
06:50 PM Lcvette: as the last one
06:50 PM Tom_L: i'm just not seeing it
06:50 PM Lcvette: :(
06:50 PM Lcvette: me either
06:51 PM Tom_L: comment the whole damn thing and start line by line :D
06:51 PM Tom_L: oh
06:51 PM Tom_L: put addf above the setp
06:51 PM Tom_L: maybe
06:52 PM Tom_L: ilowpass may be the problem
06:52 PM Tom_L: you can't set a parameter on a function that's not loaded yet :D
06:53 PM Tom_L: that's partially why i suggested you move those to the main hal
06:53 PM Lcvette: i moved addf
06:53 PM Lcvette: no worky still
06:53 PM Tom_L: show me a fresh mpg.hal
06:53 PM Tom_L: so we're working on the same page
06:55 PM Lcvette: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/N2rfGxKh8p/
06:55 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/uNPWcRwypCfmjYuPEOTMjthH >
06:55 PM Tom_L: ok uncomment the lowpass
06:55 PM Lcvette: this loaded
06:55 PM Lcvette: lol
06:55 PM Tom_L: line 5
06:56 PM Lcvette: yup i did
06:56 PM Tom_L: now uncomment all 5 setp lines
06:57 PM Lcvette: yup, loaded with 5 setp uncommented
06:57 PM Tom_L: ok so far?
06:57 PM Lcvette: yup
06:57 PM Lcvette: loaded
06:57 PM Tom_L: uncomment 16
06:57 PM Tom_L: and see what happens
06:57 PM Lcvette: error
06:58 PM Tom_L: ok is it the axis or the hm2 board that errors?
06:58 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: Screenshot_2019-09-17_19-52-47.png (69KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/onnptELcCMfFcuastYjddOdx >
06:58 PM Tom_L: separate that line temporarily and comment out from '<=' fwd
06:59 PM Lcvette: net x-jog-select axis.0.jog-enable #<= hm2_7i92.0.7i77.0.0.input-20
06:59 PM Lcvette: ?
06:59 PM Tom_L: yeah but put it on a separate line
06:59 PM Lcvette: like so?
07:00 PM Tom_L: it could be a naming convention on the mesa board pins
07:00 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/FwLEEEwwFyareryZhQiFaqGd >
07:00 PM Lcvette: ?
07:00 PM Lcvette: like so
07:00 PM Tom_L: try it yes
07:01 PM Lcvette: same error
07:01 PM Tom_L: damn.
07:01 PM Lcvette: damn
07:01 PM Tom_L: so it's a naming convention change on axis.x.xxx
07:01 PM Lcvette: yeah?
07:01 PM Tom_L: guessing here
07:01 PM Lcvette: what should it be
07:02 PM Lcvette: does it need to connect to the main hal file somewhopw?
07:02 PM Tom_L: that's just it. mine is just like that
07:02 PM Lcvette: ie.. use the same name
07:03 PM Tom_L: ok
07:03 PM Tom_L: meh
07:03 PM Lcvette: or m,aybe try it with joints instead of axis?
07:03 PM Lcvette: replace axis with joint?
07:04 PM Tom_L: no not yet
07:04 PM Lcvette: k
07:06 PM Lcvette: it loaded by changing axis to joint
07:06 PM Lcvette: :o
07:06 PM Tom_L: ok give it a try then
07:07 PM Tom_L: do you have both [JOINT] and [AXIS] sections in the ini?
07:07 PM Tom_L: i'm just trying to figure out why 'axis.0' doesn't work
07:07 PM Lcvette: yes
07:07 PM Lcvette: both in ini
07:08 PM _unreal_: Lcvette, is there any chance there is a hardware issue?
07:08 PM Tom_L: that's fucked up
07:08 PM _unreal_: loose wire etc...
07:08 PM Tom_L: no
07:08 PM _unreal_: or is this PURE software related
07:08 PM Tom_L: it's a config issue
07:08 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: Screenshot_2019-09-17_20-02-52.png (66KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/yUbjyWqEFjdYiPBrLvFBYjuw >
07:09 PM Lcvette: went to here and errored out
07:09 PM Tom_L: so it's all uncommented now?
07:09 PM Tom_L: the mpg.hal
07:09 PM Lcvette: yes
07:09 PM Tom_L: ok
07:09 PM Lcvette: all uncommented\
07:09 PM Lcvette: errors at that one
07:09 PM Tom_L: and that's the first line you get an error on
07:10 PM Tom_L: mux4 doesn't have a sel2 pin
07:10 PM Tom_L: that i see
07:11 PM Tom_itx: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/mux4.9.html
07:11 PM Tom_L: 0 & 1
07:11 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/eIOgpYyYZNAzlzdnKnVZCrKk >
07:11 PM Lcvette: that loaded
07:11 PM Lcvette: no?
07:12 PM Tom_L: check the docs
07:12 PM Tom_L: fix mux4
07:12 PM Lcvette: how do i change to the 3rd selection?
07:12 PM Tom_L: use mux8?
07:12 PM Lcvette: ok
07:12 PM Tom_itx: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/mux8.9.html
07:13 PM Tom_L: do you need that many?
07:13 PM Tom_L: sel is a binary select for the inputs i think
07:13 PM Lcvette: this is for the jog scale
07:13 PM Tom_L: right
07:13 PM Lcvette: it has x1 x10 x100
07:13 PM Tom_L: one is default i found out :D
07:13 PM Lcvette: how do i do 3 if only 2 sel0 sel1 options?
07:14 PM Lcvette: ok\
07:14 PM Tom_L: so select the other 2 and try it
07:14 PM Lcvette: so then remove one?
07:14 PM Tom_L: look at mine on that section
07:14 PM Tom_itx: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/NEW_MILL_SHOP_2.7/my_jog.hal
07:14 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/wCxwYeEfQTHthLqRcbJRkUpS >
07:15 PM Tom_itx: net scale1 mux4.0.sel0 <= hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.031.in
07:15 PM Tom_itx: net scale2 mux4.0.sel1 <= hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.036.in
07:15 PM Tom_L: and i have 3 selections
07:15 PM Lcvette: ```#net x1 hm2_7i92.0.7i77.0.0.input-25 => mux4.0.sel0
07:15 PM Lcvette: net x10 hm2_7i92.0.7i77.0.0.input-26 => mux4.0.sel0
07:15 PM Lcvette: net x100 hm2_7i92.0.7i77.0.0.input-27 => mux4.0.sel1
07:15 PM Tom_L: one is default
07:15 PM Lcvette: then x1 would be dsefault?
07:15 PM Tom_L: pretty sure yes
07:17 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: Screenshot_2019-09-17_20-11-16.png (67KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/ipOkPtUlRLcFLaMgvPmPhjgO >
07:17 PM Lcvette: last offending line
07:18 PM Tom_L: you'll have to look at dmesg or that other thing andy suggested to find the encoder pin
07:18 PM Tom_L: and what it's called
07:18 PM Lcvette: k
07:18 PM Lcvette: is all that for is the ilowpass?
07:18 PM Tom_L: or try taking the '0' off the end of it
07:18 PM Lcvette: ie can i test with that commented out?
07:19 PM Lcvette: enc instead of enc0?
07:19 PM Tom_L: try it
07:19 PM Tom_L: because the .0.0 define which one it is
07:19 PM Lcvette: so remove enc0
07:19 PM Lcvette: or just the 0?
07:20 PM Tom_L: hm2....7i00.0.0.enc
07:20 PM Tom_L: well you get the idea...
07:20 PM Lcvette: just tried same error
07:20 PM Tom_L: figure out what the pin is called somehow
07:20 PM Lcvette: ok
07:21 PM Tom_L: dmesg or what andy suggested
07:21 PM Tom_L: or
07:21 PM Lcvette: whats dmesg?
07:21 PM Tom_L: comment the line so it loads then look in hal showpin
07:21 PM Tom_L: linux utility
07:21 PM Tom_L: if you use dmesg, dmesg -c to clear the buffer
07:21 PM Tom_L: then run linuxcnc
07:21 PM Tom_L: exit and run dmesg to see the pin list
07:22 PM Tom_L: hal show pin should show it though while linuxcnc is running
07:23 PM Tom_L: i forget exactly what it's called but it's in the axis menu
07:25 PM Lcvette: im using gmoxccapy
07:25 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: Screenshot_2019-09-17_20-19-55.png (87KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/NDobCZFdGNIAZYvvDZZnaBns >
07:25 PM Tom_itx: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/hal/halshow.html
07:26 PM Tom_L: scroll down to the hm2 pin list
07:27 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: Screenshot_2019-09-17_20-21-29.png (83KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/QhMyfGepSuEyxNPsoaSPnEpx >
07:27 PM Tom_L: it's possible it might not show up there
07:27 PM Tom_L: check under the 7i77 tab
07:28 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: Screenshot_2019-09-17_20-22-31.png (84KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/nYMagLtsvQPQQpcTHquJiQIG >
07:29 PM Tom_L: ok what was the error again?
07:29 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: Screenshot_2019-09-17_20-11-16.png (67KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/lZSVtcylHXzPSRbZMZmeQCma >
07:30 PM Lcvette: ```#net x1 hm2_7i92.0.7i77.0.0.input-25 => mux4.0.sel0
07:30 PM Lcvette: net x10 hm2_7i92.0.7i77.0.0.input-26 => mux4.0.sel0
07:30 PM Lcvette: net x100 hm2_7i92.0.7i77.0.0.input-27 => mux4.0.sel1
07:30 PM _unreal_: I'm doing a ramp milling right now I like it
07:31 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: Screenshot_2019-09-17_20-25-37.png (73KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/RVJMEdNldSHHqnAylpUylrOl >
07:31 PM Lcvette: ooh oooh does this mean it needs an extra .count or something on the end?
07:32 PM Tom_L: how's the pin used?
07:32 PM Lcvette: dunno
07:32 PM Tom_L: well where's it at?
07:32 PM Tom_L: in the mpg file?
07:32 PM Lcvette: net jogscale => joint.3.jog-scale
07:32 PM Lcvette: net mpg-out hm2_7i92.0.7i77.0.0.enc0 => ilowpass.0.in
07:33 PM Tom_L: umm. you could try count and see
07:33 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: ^^^
07:34 PM Lcvette: \o/ it loaded with .count
07:34 PM Lcvette: \o/
07:34 PM Tom_L: yes it's count
07:34 PM Lcvette: should i test it now?
07:34 PM Tom_itx: net mpg-out ilowpass.0.in <= hm2_7i90.0.encoder.00.count
07:35 PM Tom_L: too friggin many tabs open..
07:35 PM Tom_L: if it loads, test it yes
07:35 PM Tom_L: with a finger on the red button
07:35 PM Lcvette: nothing moves
07:36 PM Tom_L: check your inputs for polarity
07:36 PM Tom_L: is there an enable?
07:36 PM Lcvette: enable?
07:37 PM Tom_L: #net x-jog-select axis.0.jog-enable <= hm2_7i92.0.7i77.0.0.input-20
07:37 PM Tom_L: maybe needs reversed
07:37 PM Tom_itx: net mpg-x axis.0.jog-enable <= hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.005.in_not
07:37 PM Lcvette: there isnt a way to do that
07:37 PM Tom_L: ^^
07:38 PM Lcvette: it has a 24v to 5 v adapter in it
07:38 PM Tom_L: check the syntax
07:39 PM Lcvette: i have it wired to provide a 24v + signal for the axis and jogscale selection
07:40 PM Tom_L: that could be the problem though
07:40 PM Tom_L: put a meter on some pins and see
07:40 PM Lcvette: 7i77 is supposed to get 24v+ on inputs
07:41 PM Tom_L: wait, shouldn't that be an output?
07:41 PM Lcvette: ok testing
07:41 PM Tom_L: going to axis.x.jog-enable?
07:41 PM Tom_L: yes
07:41 PM Tom_L: those should be outputs from the 7i77
07:41 PM Tom_L: pretty sure anyway
07:42 PM Tom_L: hold on...
07:42 PM Tom_L: no i take all that back
07:42 PM Tom_L: (i can do that)
07:43 PM Lcvette: lol
07:43 PM Lcvette: sec while i multimeter test
07:43 PM Tom_L: is joint.0.jog-enable an input?
07:43 PM Lcvette: its from the selector switch so i would assume yes
07:44 PM Tom_L: ok so you feed 24v to that pin?
07:44 PM Tom_L: from the selector switch?
07:44 PM Lcvette: yes
07:44 PM Tom_L: and the switch is wired to the hm2 pin
07:45 PM Lcvette: 24+ to comm on the pendant and the switches output the 24v to various wires connected to the pins sdo im not sure ho it could be wrong?
07:45 PM Tom_L: i still wonder if you need to reverse the logic
07:45 PM Lcvette: reverse the polarity?
07:46 PM Lcvette: connect common to ground?
07:46 PM Tom_L: let's not get crazy just yet
07:46 PM Lcvette: k
07:46 PM Lcvette: let me take a 4 miunute break brb
07:46 PM Tom_L: np
07:46 PM Tom_L: me too
07:55 PM _unreal_: thats been a lot longer then 4min my friends
07:56 PM _unreal_: :)
07:56 PM _unreal_: What am I paying ya for
08:20 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: sorry i went ahead and put a meter on the inputs and they are in fact sending 24v+ to the input pins on the 7i77 for the correct selection switch
08:26 PM Lcvette: and when i turn the mpg wheel, i get 2.7v on the A+ and B+ inputs
08:27 PM Lcvette: so it looks like the signals are there
08:27 PM Lcvette: at a loss for the config issue
08:27 PM Lcvette: loads fine now with : net mpg-out hm2_7i92.0.7i77.0.0.enc0.count => ilowpass.0.in
08:28 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/MrGOhvyNRgQDIguMqSpZOBgt >
08:28 PM Lcvette: hats the current mpg.hal file that loads
08:31 PM Tom_L: shouldn't you be getting more than 2.7v on the mpg?
08:34 PM Lcvette: i wondered about that
08:34 PM Lcvette: thought it was supposed to be 5v
08:35 PM Tom_L: i wonder if it's got open collector outputs and needs pullups on them
08:35 PM Lcvette: it has A+ and B+ only
08:36 PM Tom_L: they're 5v though right?
08:36 PM Tom_L: you could try adding a small resistor to them and tie to 5v and see if that helps
08:37 PM Tom_L: 10k wouldn't hurt anything
08:37 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: image.png (40KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/RqmwkHwofREdfJRJqaolmCLd >
08:38 PM Lcvette: but i saw this that shows 2.5v
08:38 PM Tom_L: so it's borderline on the threshhold
08:38 PM Lcvette: and thought maybe it is supposed to be 2.5ish?
08:38 PM Lcvette: oh thats the lower threshhold?
08:38 PM Tom_L: that's the threshhold voltage
08:40 PM Tom_L: i'm not so familiar with those io and encoder function so i don't wanna say for sure
08:40 PM Lcvette: would it do anyhting with 2.7v?
08:40 PM Lcvette: ok
08:40 PM Tom_L: but i would maybe try the 10k pullup on them
08:41 PM Lcvette: maybe pcw_home can jump in and clarify
08:41 PM _unreal_: just finished milling
08:41 PM _unreal_: My part came out great
08:41 PM Lcvette: or see if there is an adjustment for the encoder output
08:41 PM _unreal_: took longer then It should have but there were a number of aspects I missed in setting up my gcode using fusion
08:41 PM Tom_L: you won't find one
08:41 PM Lcvette: good news unreal
08:42 PM Tom_L: measure the encoder output by itself and see what you get
08:42 PM _unreal_: ?
08:42 PM _unreal_: are we moving into hardware problem?
08:42 PM Tom_L: i'd expect to see 5v but that's just what i get
08:43 PM Lcvette: right i mean for the 24v to 5v internal adapter
08:43 PM _unreal_: bbiab got to make DIN for the kid
09:10 PM Tom_L: Lcvette, got it all working now??
09:10 PM Tom_L: :)
09:14 PM pink_vampire: hi
09:14 PM _unreal_: low
09:14 PM Tom_L: hi
09:14 PM _unreal_: low
09:16 PM _unreal_: hay pinky this is my more or less final version. I have most of the parts cut already for my daughter https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bEtuf4uRFn4xw0Ak_PECo-5kZgzVa_jk
09:17 PM _unreal_: pink_vampire, ?
09:25 PM pink_vampire: and what is the point with stl??
09:25 PM pink_vampire: you can't even have faces
09:33 PM pink_vampire: other then polygons all over I can't even see what you did
09:33 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/3j65XOt.png
09:34 PM pink_vampire: I can't even open such a large stl file in solidworks.
09:34 PM pink_vampire: _unreal_: ^
09:36 PM Tom_L: what ver?
09:36 PM pink_vampire: 2014
09:36 PM pink_vampire: I know on the newer ones it is better
09:37 PM Rab: 3.5MB
09:37 PM Rab: MeshLab opened it instantly, FWIW.
09:38 PM pink_vampire: yes, but meshlab is not parametric.
09:39 PM pink_vampire: Rab: the screenshot that I sent is from meshlab
09:39 PM Rab: pink_vampire, very peculiar.
09:40 PM pink_vampire: can you take that stl and do any cam work on it?
09:40 PM Rab: I guess _unreal_ did, he's been milling it out.
09:40 PM Rab: I don't know what his CAM toolchain is like.
09:46 PM pink_vampire: I think _unreal_ is the designer.
10:14 PM _unreal_: I'm using design spark
10:14 PM _unreal_: fusion360 does the same thing opening it
10:15 PM _unreal_: can you open a SKP file?
10:16 PM pink_vampire: iges is the best
10:16 PM pink_vampire: _unreal_: ^
10:16 PM _unreal_: iges?
10:16 PM pink_vampire: iges is parametric
10:17 PM _unreal_: What is the extension for that?
10:17 PM _unreal_: I dont know if designspark supports exporting that
10:17 PM pink_vampire: .iges
10:18 PM _unreal_: not supported
10:19 PM Rab: Paid add-on modules are available and provide functionality for the free 3D CAD DesignSpark Mechanical software, such as full support of two popular 3D file formats (Export and import file type: STEP & IGES).
10:19 PM _unreal_: i can export amf obj skp stl, dxf xaml
10:19 PM _unreal_: sigh
10:20 PM _unreal_: I prefer design spark to fusion because its SOOOOO easy to do complex cad designs
10:21 PM pink_vampire: I never heard of it
10:23 PM _unreal_: really?
10:23 PM pink_vampire: yes,
10:24 PM pink_vampire: I'm with solidworks for yearssss
10:25 PM _unreal_: A: designspark is 99% free
10:25 PM _unreal_: and its a direct modeling software.
10:25 PM pink_vampire: how do you make the cam work?
10:28 PM _unreal_: pink_vampire, https://drive.google.com/open?id=1fNUz8yQsjeJA0Uxd1_SwFodAyful3OVN
10:28 PM _unreal_: I export dxf
10:28 PM _unreal_: 99% of what I do is 2
10:28 PM _unreal_: 2d
10:29 PM pink_vampire: dxf is 2d
10:29 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/open?id=10MLBQXee-33djBb4kWd6c-Wew7gYVnKX this is a combo 2d 3d
10:30 PM pink_vampire: yeah, but it is not defined as body, just face
10:30 PM _unreal_: could be how I expored it as well
10:31 PM pink_vampire: what are you using for cam?
10:31 PM _unreal_: uploading a new "version" with different settings on export for STL
10:32 PM _unreal_: maybe this will work https://drive.google.com/open?id=1hwpQkvDz8Is0VM2x1CVzT2GD9hms17B4
10:32 PM _unreal_: updated STL
10:33 PM _unreal_: sigh... still looks funy opening it in fusion360
10:33 PM _unreal_: as to cam
10:33 PM _unreal_: I use different softwares
10:33 PM _unreal_: they all have the +'s and -
10:33 PM pink_vampire: because designspark not allow you to export parametric
10:34 PM _unreal_: I use carbide create for a lot of my cam
10:34 PM _unreal_: I own ESTLcam
10:34 PM _unreal_: I use fusion360 for cam
10:34 PM pink_vampire: I can convert a dxf to parametric body
10:34 PM _unreal_: that 1001.nc file was generated 100% in fusion360
10:34 PM pink_vampire: did you machine those parts?
10:34 PM _unreal_: yes
10:35 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NMDZD1AhnIh9qN-_XjH8rDLjb4nw0W1O
10:35 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KmIHCtEACsjAkcYvKSO3KWlt3s4j4Pvc
10:35 PM _unreal_: I designed this in fusion360 https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Jhdu2UXy-NDLAabpD3d6cB-wlT9qazFm
10:35 PM pink_vampire: look very nice!!
10:36 PM _unreal_: I designed a mini vacuum plate https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LFl4v5AcZk8ed-yGZLsisnEbMLLkKv7Q
10:36 PM pink_vampire: that is cute!
10:36 PM _unreal_: the gasket is 2"x2"
10:36 PM _unreal_: works great
10:36 PM pink_vampire: what plastic is that?
10:36 PM _unreal_: starboard
10:37 PM _unreal_: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Epi_HnCUA83Bbr7-sbDEt4EFKLzObQoM
10:37 PM pink_vampire: High-Density Polyethylene
10:38 PM pink_vampire: this is look like the stuff that was here in 2007
10:38 PM _unreal_: ahh no its hdpe i believe ;)
10:38 PM pink_vampire: pure DIY cnc machine!
10:39 PM _unreal_: ya pure of the purest
10:39 PM _unreal_: its made from g10 though
10:39 PM _unreal_: VERY VERY rugid
10:39 PM _unreal_: rugged
10:39 PM pink_vampire: starboard = High-Density Polyethylene = HDPE
10:40 PM _unreal_: ahh no its hdpe i believe ----> ;) <-----
10:41 PM pink_vampire: _unreal_: I did some phenolic laminated parts, it is machine sooooo grate, but it is soo bad for you.
10:41 PM _unreal_: just hold your breath
10:41 PM _unreal_: heh
10:41 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/mbjoTZb.png i need to make it in metal
10:42 PM _unreal_: tiny
10:43 PM pink_vampire: is is not that tiny
10:44 PM _unreal_: these are my new FAVE https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078S3S956/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
10:44 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/IFvRUaC.png
10:44 PM Elmo40: pink_vampire, i read up and saw the photo you posted from _unreal_'s STL. Have you tried the online viewer?
10:44 PM Elmo40: http://stlviewer.kwebpia.net/?state=%7B%22ids%22:%5B%221bEtuf4uRFn4xw0Ak_PECo-5kZgzVa_jk%22%5D,%22action%22:%22open%22,%22userId%22:%22{userId}%22%7D
10:46 PM pink_vampire: Elmo40: I can view the file, but I can't do anything with it.
10:46 PM Rab: Please disable the adblock for free use. [ OK ]
10:47 PM pink_vampire: Rab: I'm talking about meshlab
10:47 PM Elmo40: i guess the browser isn't even calling the ad links and they know?
10:48 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/QhCfqfL.png
10:48 PM pink_vampire: no idea
10:49 PM pink_vampire: it is the same in every browser
10:49 PM Rab: Elmo40, guess so. The blocked domain is pagead2.googlesyndication.com.
10:50 PM pink_vampire: Rab: even if you can view the stl.. what is the point? there is no faces in the 3d model, just bunch of random polygons.
10:51 PM pink_vampire: how can you locate a hole diameter?
10:53 PM pink_vampire: you must re-design the part, and yeah this is very simple machine, and just by looking at a screenshot you can make it, but the point is that using STL, is like saving something as JPG instead of SVG.
10:54 PM Tom_L: sometimes i will draw crosshairs to opposing points and measure the distance then draw a circle there on some models
10:54 PM Tom_L: i hate stl and won't use it for my cad cam
10:59 PM pink_vampire: STL become popular because of 3d printers, and as final chunk of plastic, it is not bad, but if you want ANY data from it ,it is practically useless
11:00 PM pink_vampire: I was working on making the MPCNC, but after more them 50 hours of printing it, I'm not sure it will be smart to build it.
11:00 PM Elmo40: pink_vampire, i've used SW 2019 and they display like an SLDPRT file but you can't do shit with them...
11:01 PM Elmo40: pink_vampire, you didn't want to login to view the file?
11:02 PM pink_vampire: in solidworks 2019, you can open much larger stl files, but the point is, that you are not supposed to deal with that in a parametric software,
11:02 PM Elmo40: i think they are trying to get into the 3D world
11:03 PM Elmo40: problem is I have no idea how to edit or even measure anything from an STL.
11:03 PM Elmo40: maybe the UofY can teach me...
11:03 PM pink_vampire: Elmo40: no, there is no point, meshlab do the same thing, and allow you to measure stuff, that in the online version you can't
11:04 PM pink_vampire: Elmo40: replace the word "STL" with "JPEG", and then you will understand the problem.
11:05 PM Elmo40: i completely understand the situation.
11:07 PM pink_vampire: you can take the mesurment tool in meshlab, or solidworks, and try measure between points, but you will get a funky number, that you must guess what was the original.
11:10 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/vxNRNPL.png, do you need to bore this hole for 12.9286mm for a press fit, or it is 13mm and you just picked points out of center in the STL?
11:11 PM pink_vampire: maybe it is not a round hole and you must edm that polygon.
11:13 PM Elmo40: hence why it is suitable for the accuracy of 3D printing. (close enough...)
11:16 PM pink_vampire: because the average nozzle size for fdm printers is 0.4mm.
11:18 PM pink_vampire: with a milling machine even a very shitty one like a bench-top mill you can hit a dimension to 0.01mm with not much of a problem
11:18 PM Elmo40: i tried 0.2mm. it took some effort to make clean parts. had to go REAL slow.
11:19 PM Elmo40: yes, mill vs fdm is like apples to mango. they are both round'ish(cartesian machines, in most cases...) but still very different.
11:19 PM pink_vampire: LOLL apples to mango! I will use that!!