#linuxcnc Logs

Sep 12 2019

01:15 AM Loetmichel: hmm, somehow everyone mutates to a Dick in traffic. Just let a Semi into the exit lane in front of me (traffic jam). Took three handsigns out the window for him to notice the opertunity. and the cars behind me started honking... IIRC there is a law in germany that you have to use "zipper technique" when merging into or out of a highway... :-(
02:50 AM Deejay: moin
04:21 AM XXCoder: jthornton: yo
04:37 AM t4nk-freenode: *sigh* the oddest thing last night when I wanted to go testing; I always use an ATX power supply to power my projects. The power supply, along with pretty much everything (pc, external usb drives etc) is connected to the same wall outlet.
04:38 AM t4nk-freenode: when I take 2 power lines from the psu, and use those to power a stepper motor.. I first noticed my mini cnc got disconnected from the pc sometimes
04:39 AM t4nk-freenode: so I disconnected the minicnc from my pc
04:39 AM t4nk-freenode: then.. my pickit2 clone got disconnected from the pc
04:40 AM t4nk-freenode: so I took that off...
04:40 AM t4nk-freenode: then.. my external hd's got messed up
04:40 AM t4nk-freenode: I just don't understand
04:41 AM t4nk-freenode: I can see that maybe I demolished the stepper and now it would somehow short the power supply (but it has a short protection and doesn't stop running)
04:42 AM t4nk-freenode: but it also happens when I poke in a perfectly fine stepper
04:43 AM t4nk-freenode: I tested further by using a second atx PSU, and the same thing happens
04:44 AM t4nk-freenode: now.. I'm quite sure the psu has nothing else connected than the motors I want to test, perhaps
04:44 AM t4nk-freenode: the ground signal from the common wall outlet, but.. what on 'earth' could this be?
04:44 AM t4nk-freenode: am I making any sense with my ramblings?
04:45 AM Loetmichel: nope
04:45 AM t4nk-freenode: I always have that psu connected and I always power my breadboard from it, and then some other stuf from the breadboard too
04:46 AM t4nk-freenode: like led lights, fans etc.. the mini cnc was powered while on the breadboard too
04:48 AM t4nk-freenode: now, when I put 2 different loads on the psu... it crashes the usb ports on my pc
05:01 AM jthornton: morning
05:01 AM XXCoder: hey
05:01 AM XXCoder: part arrived :)
05:01 AM XXCoder: its... surpising nice
05:01 AM XXCoder: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32913990686.html
05:01 AM t4nk-freenode: good morning John, Xavier..
05:02 AM jthornton: that is a nice looking part
05:02 AM XXCoder: it is
05:02 AM XXCoder: alum parts. only crap was bolt, its little short but workable
05:03 AM XXCoder: the bolt for tighten hand
05:03 AM jthornton: no more free shipping from china lol
05:04 AM XXCoder: many still offers free but not that specific one
05:05 AM Tom_L: morning
05:05 AM jthornton: morning
05:05 AM jthornton: the ender 3 prints real nice till the Y axis roller got loose lol
05:05 AM XXCoder: doh lol
05:06 AM XXCoder: honestly I would go all over machine check stuff
05:06 AM XXCoder: squareness, bolts etc
05:06 AM XXCoder: maybe some lube
05:07 AM jthornton: I tightened the rollers but didn't take the build plate off to do that, going to now
05:08 AM jthornton: printed a hollow box and the wall thickness was ± 0.02mm
05:09 AM XXCoder: thats around standard for printers
05:09 AM XXCoder: not bad
05:11 AM jthornton: I never got close to that with the prusa clone
05:13 AM XXCoder: yeah
05:13 AM XXCoder: extruder is shit
05:13 AM XXCoder: I replaced mine with fairly cheaper metal one, and it was wat better
05:13 AM jthornton: 0bf
05:14 AM jthornton: yea I replaced mine as well
05:14 AM XXCoder: hotend was upgraded also
05:18 AM jthornton: me too
05:22 AM XXCoder: whats you use? mine was e3d v6 clone (orginal is actually v5, but listed as clone of v6 lol)
05:25 AM jthornton: lol I don't remember exactly I do remember I used parts from both hot ends to make it work
05:25 AM XXCoder: youre the engineer heh
05:34 AM jthornton: the extruder on the ender 3 is ok but it has a brass gear so that will wear out with use
06:07 AM jthornton: printing a test part now
06:26 AM hightower2: I had prusa clone, some old crap... never put it together because even the parts were missing. Since then I bought 3 prusa originals and had not a single complaint.
06:34 AM jthornton: my only complaint about a prusa original is you can buy 3 ender 3 pros for the price of one prusa and well I don't like that the Z has two steppers which can get out of square
06:36 AM XXCoder: newer flsun clone only have one stepper.
06:36 AM XXCoder: for z that is
06:39 AM jthornton: I'm not finding that one
06:39 AM XXCoder: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32679964210.html
06:39 AM XXCoder: hm 2 steppers
06:40 AM jthornton: yea that's the one I found
06:40 AM jthornton: they move the z steppers to the top
06:40 AM XXCoder: well myfordboy converted machine with similar design to single stepper
06:40 AM XXCoder: it looked strightforward
06:40 AM jthornton: he got that one from banggood IIRC
06:41 AM XXCoder: yeah
06:41 AM XXCoder: review i think
06:41 AM XXCoder: he likes 3d printing a lot now
06:41 AM XXCoder: uses em a lot in mold making etc
06:42 AM XXCoder: he was making his own design, then he stopped. no idea whats going on
06:44 AM jthornton: dang I need to clean up down here in the beer cave...
06:45 AM jthornton: oh that ramps box I printed the other day is way to big lol, I guess I need to draw one up in SW
06:45 AM XXCoder: lol
06:46 AM XXCoder: well it could be turned into diseccant box
06:46 AM jthornton: took 14 hours to print
06:51 AM Elmo40: i think a single larger Z-stepper is the way to go.
06:52 AM XXCoder: why larger?
06:52 AM Elmo40: with belts connecting the two threaded rods
06:52 AM XXCoder: z needs very littl;e force
06:52 AM Elmo40: if you want to do non-planar 3d printing later on then you'll need the oomph to go up/down a lot.
06:53 AM Elmo40: not line a nema34 or anything... just go up from the ~40oz.in. motors from factory to a ~60
08:08 AM t4nk-freenode: *sigh*... so I thought I was clever when I glued a nut onto my threaded rod... put some power glue into the nut and screwed it on flush with the end
08:08 AM t4nk-freenode: thinking this stuff is poop as it is, sticks more to my fingers than it glues anything
08:09 AM t4nk-freenode: however ;) it is 'stuck good'
08:09 AM t4nk-freenode: could acetone get it off again?
08:09 AM gregcnc: cyanoacrylate?
08:11 AM t4nk-freenode: ehhh just the '3 tubes for 25cts' glue
08:12 AM t4nk-freenode: yes, I think it says something that looks like it on the tube
08:12 AM gregcnc: will soften in acetone. buy it will take a while to reach the crevices
08:12 AM t4nk-freenode: heat is no good?
08:12 AM gregcnc: heat also works, but watch out for the fumes
08:14 AM t4nk-freenode: soaking in acetone now...
08:16 AM t4nk-freenode: had no idea this would be such a successful bond
08:18 AM t4nk-freenode: ok, that was nail polish remover without acetone ;)
08:18 AM t4nk-freenode: next bottle ;)
08:19 AM gregcnc: what's in that if it has no acetone?
08:20 AM t4nk-freenode: methylacetate propylene
08:21 AM t4nk-freenode: very long list of that
08:21 AM t4nk-freenode: it's from Herôme ;)
08:27 AM t4nk-freenode: well, I'll leave it in there for a while, but I'm not really sure it will work
08:27 AM t4nk-freenode: better just cut a new rod while I'm at it
08:47 AM * t4nk-freenode procedes by gluing a plastic cog to the next rod ;)
09:37 AM t4nk-freenode: well, gregcnc, acetone didn't do much and I didn't want to wait any longer. then used my hot air gun, and it came off in seconds!
09:38 AM t4nk-freenode: interesting, actually.. that nut was incredibly tight!
11:09 AM t4nk-freenode: well, concerning the psu situation; I tested, and I can run fans, dc motors and stuff just fine
11:10 AM t4nk-freenode: but when I power up a stepper... my usb-devices get disconnected
11:10 AM t4nk-freenode: it's crazy
11:10 AM t4nk-freenode: absolutely crazy
11:12 AM t4nk-freenode: my mini-cnc is powered from the same psu.. and it just works, it has driver chips of course, but I believe I also tested one of those steppers directly and I don't think it killed my usb
11:13 AM t4nk-freenode: but when I take a spare stepper that is known to work; usb errors on my pc
11:14 AM t4nk-freenode: I think I might see if I got any loose adapters lying around, see what happens if I try to power off those
11:14 AM t4nk-freenode: could the 'shock' of one winding of a stepper be responsible for throwing everything off?
11:43 AM Tom_L: jthornton, which ender did you get?
11:59 AM jesseg: t4nk-freenode, you may have a ground loop problem going on
12:00 PM jesseg: in other words, currents in different ground paths causing too much current on the ground in the usb
12:00 PM jesseg: and exceeding the differential common mode
12:01 PM jesseg: I've seen that happen where my usb disconnects briefly to a device that's powered by a supply other than the computer
12:01 PM t4nk-freenode: so then I could connect all grounds together?
12:02 PM Tom_L: star ground configuration
12:02 PM Tom_L: ground the stepper frame too
12:02 PM t4nk-freenode: I've now tried running through 7805, same problem
12:02 PM jesseg: you could try a thick ground wire between the case of your computer and your stepper driver board
12:02 PM t4nk-freenode: tried a diode on the + rail
12:02 PM t4nk-freenode: same
12:03 PM t4nk-freenode: the strange thing is that the z-stepper of my minicnc does not seem to cause the problem
12:04 PM t4nk-freenode: I now had just connected a 15v external adapter, was gonna route through the 7805, but let me see
12:06 PM jesseg: How many amps do all your stepper motors draw together?
12:06 PM jesseg: a 7805 is gonna get scorching hot dropping 15v to 5v at a couple amps
12:07 PM Tom_L: could be going into thermal shutdown instead of noise
12:07 PM jesseg: t4nk-freenode, the problem is almost certainly not power related but ground related, unless of course the steppers are just drawing so much power the power supply droops so far the USB client chip loses power.
12:08 PM t4nk-freenode: no, that shouldn't be the case
12:08 PM t4nk-freenode: I think the one stepper is rated at 500ma max or so
12:08 PM t4nk-freenode: but I doubt they pull that
12:08 PM jesseg: ok
12:09 PM t4nk-freenode: Hang on
12:09 PM t4nk-freenode: nah, can't be
12:09 PM t4nk-freenode: yesterday I rewired my atx
12:09 PM t4nk-freenode: so a couple of ground wires got changed
12:10 PM t4nk-freenode: but.. it was after the problem occurred
12:10 PM jesseg: if it really is a noise-on-power-buss issue you could add more capacitors
12:11 PM t4nk-freenode: ehm, therefor I really don't know what I'm doing because I don't even know which ground wires are what
12:11 PM t4nk-freenode: and by that you mean.. at least one? ;)
12:11 PM t4nk-freenode: well.. the pic has one
12:11 PM t4nk-freenode: but hang on
12:12 PM t4nk-freenode: so; from a breadboard there is a pic connected that's a usb device
12:12 PM t4nk-freenode: it is the first to go each time
12:12 PM t4nk-freenode: but when I diconnect that
12:12 PM t4nk-freenode: then my pickit2 messes up
12:13 PM jesseg: A breadboard....?
12:13 PM t4nk-freenode: and yesterday also, after I disconnected the pickit, my external usb drives disappeared
12:15 PM t4nk-freenode: well.. gonna test the external psu now
12:15 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFrREKB-l4M Star Point Grounding & Ground Loops Breakdown
12:18 PM jesseg: That video may not be exactly helpful because it's oriented towards 3-wire -- two power wires and a safety ground.
12:19 PM jesseg: But we're talking about two-wire DC power where the ground circuit is one and the same with the current return line.
12:20 PM t4nk-freenode: mmmmmm that 7805 got crazy hot even before I started..
12:20 PM jesseg: lol
12:20 PM jesseg: is it putting out 5v?
12:21 PM t4nk-freenode: 10 I think, lol I musta connected it wrongly
12:22 PM jesseg: yah I think so
12:22 PM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/cFrREKB-l4M?t=91 this pic is the most important part
12:22 PM CaptHindsight: working with a breadboard is a great way to learn about ground loops and latchup
12:23 PM CaptHindsight: since they are so terrible
12:23 PM jesseg: LOL true, you can learn about every possible gremlin known to the electronics world.
12:23 PM jesseg: and maybe a few unknown ones.
12:25 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoPPwGxgWEY Chasing Micrometres with the best Ball Screws
12:31 PM jym: This is cute as hell... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcCRZkeqFY8
12:35 PM jesseg: hahaha it thinks the human is one of its babies?
12:38 PM t4nk-freenode: hey, btw, if everything is connected to the same wall outlet, then there shouldn't be much of ground being different, right?
12:38 PM t4nk-freenode: well, if I connect 12v to the 7805.. it outputs normally
12:40 PM t4nk-freenode: when I connect a dc adapter, rated 15v 650ma.. (I think I measured some 20.9v output though) .. the 7805 outputs 10v
12:41 PM t4nk-freenode: I heard one more remark about grounding the stepper body.. see what I can do
12:42 PM Tom_L: jym, https://youtu.be/Bsp_JTtE3-w
12:42 PM CaptHindsight: t4nk-freenode: you can still have loops between devices connected to that same outlet
12:44 PM jym: Tom_L: =)
12:59 PM t4nk-freenode: grounding the stepper didn; t help either..
01:00 PM t4nk-freenode: this is mad.
01:00 PM Tom_L: it won't hurt either
01:00 PM CaptHindsight: post a pic of your setup
01:01 PM CaptHindsight: if you can take the criticism
01:01 PM Tom_L: hah you should see my enclosure :)
01:01 PM Tom_L: but it runs solid
01:02 PM t4nk-freenode: ehm, there's no setup anymore, really ;) just a bunch of dangling wires
01:03 PM t4nk-freenode: [48775.648203] usb 1-13-port2: attempt power cycle
01:29 PM t4nk-freenode: . . .
01:29 PM t4nk-freenode: think I bleh up my usb hub...
01:29 PM t4nk-freenode: bleh? blew ;)
01:30 PM t4nk-freenode: and probably almost the rest of my devices too
01:31 PM CaptHindsight: + to - and - to + only works in Frankenstein movies
01:33 PM FinboySlick: "He must have an enormous schwanzstucker."
01:34 PM t4nk-freenode: *sigh*
01:34 PM t4nk-freenode: yeh
01:35 PM t4nk-freenode: I've been over this at least 10000 times already
01:35 PM t4nk-freenode: ;)
01:35 PM t4nk-freenode: well, not so funny man, this is scary stuff
01:36 PM t4nk-freenode: I now still got a cable from my pc case to the ground if the external atx psu
01:36 PM t4nk-freenode: yes, this time to -
01:36 PM t4nk-freenode: you wanted to know about my setup?
01:37 PM t4nk-freenode: well, wires dangling everywhere, trying to insert too thick a wire into a connector that aint made for it
01:37 PM t4nk-freenode: with one hand
01:38 PM t4nk-freenode: I watched it go; there was a 12v line right next to it, with a large surface to land on, wire didn't fit so I pushed on.. and watched it slip and *beng*
01:38 PM t4nk-freenode: *sigh*
01:38 PM CaptHindsight: I used to blow stuff up all the time
01:39 PM CaptHindsight: get shocked by hot chassis
01:39 PM t4nk-freenode: yeh, but I don't like to blow up my still newish pc
01:39 PM CaptHindsight: burned by high voltage arcs
01:41 PM t4nk-freenode: somehow it took 3 reboots for my usb wlan adapter te get settled again and be up after boot
01:41 PM t4nk-freenode: that was the scary part
01:41 PM CaptHindsight: at age 6 my brother handed me 12" of ~24ga phone wire, within 30 seconds I had it plugged into a receptacle surrounded by a black patch and the fuse had blown
01:46 PM t4nk-freenode: gonna reboot again to see if all is well
01:52 PM t4nk-freenode: ok, well, I'm ok!
01:54 PM t4nk-freenode: the usb hub is a goner though; ironically I attached it between my breadboard and my usb ports.. for this exact reason.. not to blow it up of course, but to only blow It up ;)
01:55 PM t4nk-freenode: so now the only thing left is the cable I have between my pc case and the ground of my external psu... is it wise to give it one more test setup like this?
01:56 PM t4nk-freenode: it took 12v, so I reckon it can ground too
02:08 PM FinboySlick: t4nk-freenode: Might want to invest in an optocoupled usb hub.
02:15 PM t4nk-freenode: would you ehmmm mind putting a usb hub of mine in your house FinboySlick?
02:15 PM FinboySlick: What would be the point of that?
02:16 PM t4nk-freenode: well, I could then ask someone else to go and stick some power lines into it
02:16 PM t4nk-freenode: that'd be safe for me
02:16 PM t4nk-freenode: better than octo coupling
02:21 PM FinboySlick: t4nk-freenode: Well, since I wouldn't actually mind the house burning down at this point... sure. Just make as many dumb mistakes as possible.
02:21 PM t4nk-freenode: location?
02:24 PM FinboySlick: Eastern canada.
02:26 PM t4nk-freenode: well then, guy, then you're on your own, ey
02:43 PM t4nk-freenode: there; found another usb hub I scavenged for the cable once.. soldered a connector back on.. and there's my hub again ;)
02:49 PM t4nk-freenode: running a cable from my case to the psu didn't help either
02:49 PM t4nk-freenode: gonna remove it
02:53 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight what was the objective of that experiment?
02:54 PM t4nk-freenode: found a couple of 5v and 12v adapters I'll connect them next, gonna make some coffee, and relax and settle down from all this commotion, slip back into quiet mode, or, 'quite-mode' as referred to by some.
02:55 PM Tom_L: better save them for tomorrow
02:56 PM t4nk-freenode: my adapters?
02:56 PM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: what happens when this wire goes into an outlet
02:58 PM CaptHindsight: answer: smoke, sparks, black mark on wall, fuse blown, people yelling, blisters in fingers, how long till parent/s notice black outlet? etc etc
02:59 PM t4nk-freenode: hehe.. when I was that age.. I was in the shed one day, and I took a 220v bulb and thought I could hold the wires from the outlet by hand
02:59 PM Tom_L: quite a result :)
03:00 PM CaptHindsight: I'm sure there was some story about what Hitler would have done if involved today etc
03:00 PM CaptHindsight: most childhood lessons had some tie back to Hitler or Stalin
03:01 PM CaptHindsight: or gypsy's
03:01 PM CaptHindsight: you didn't want to get sold to them
03:58 PM t4nk-freenode: capacitance didn't help either... using an adapter does work luckily.
04:11 PM _unreal_: t4nk-freenode, lives
04:40 PM Deejay: gn8
05:58 PM _unreal_: much better results. edited the Gcode and removed the Z lifts totally on one of the moves
05:58 PM _unreal_: how its making a + and - directions milling pass
06:27 PM _unreal_: well that was fun my @##$%@#$ cnc control software crashed
06:28 PM _unreal_: I totally lost my location
06:28 PM _unreal_: just finished Fudging back my "" location close enough but WTF
06:29 PM _unreal_: next time I'm adding the oddball OFFSET to stored locations based on home ref.
07:42 PM _unreal_: ?
07:48 PM Tom_L: �
07:48 PM Tom_L: ever mirror a part? :)
07:49 PM _unreal_: yes
07:49 PM _unreal_: I'm milling a twin parts that are mirrored right now
07:49 PM _unreal_: the mount holes are offset
07:49 PM _unreal_: left side right side but the only differece is a MIRROR
08:38 PM _unreal_: So Whats hapening
08:38 PM _unreal_: ?
08:44 PM ziper: thinkin boud dem hydrofoils
08:44 PM _unreal_: so tom why ya ask?
08:44 PM _unreal_: ziper, ? huh?
08:54 PM R2E4: Hi Tom
09:02 PM jdh: Hi Tom.
09:05 PM Tom_L: what's up?
09:10 PM jdh: power outage killed my print. power outage was caused by cable company fixing neighbors cablek
09:10 PM jdh: and in fixing his, they cut mine. so no interwebbes :(
09:21 PM Tom_L: gotta love the cloud.
09:22 PM Tom_L: kid came home early since the school lost interweb and couldn't run catia now that it's cloud based
09:24 PM sync: lel who even uses catia 3dexperience
09:25 PM sync: all major players who still use catia use v5
09:25 PM Tom_L: yeah 5 is faster
09:26 PM Tom_L: although i think spirit went to 3d exerience
09:26 PM Tom_L: and they kinda lead the pack here
09:26 PM Tom_L: that's why the school started teaching it instead of 5
09:27 PM Tom_L: both mine learned 5 and got their feet wet in '6' a little
09:27 PM sync: all the automotives use NX now
09:27 PM jesseg: Loetmichel, Got a replacement switch in and the switch is molded "Made in Germany" but the package says "Made in Hungary."
09:27 PM sync: space and defence is v5
09:27 PM sync: oil and gas is mostly NX now for large scale stuff
09:28 PM CaptHindsight: wut duz repraps use?
09:29 PM Tom_L: openscad i think
09:29 PM Tom_L: i don't like it
09:30 PM CaptHindsight: jesseg: when is Germany not Germany?
09:30 PM CaptHindsight: when its Hun-ga-ry
09:31 PM jesseg: lol
09:32 PM CaptHindsight: who uses Creo besides industrial designers?
09:33 PM sync: quite a few people
09:44 PM _unreal_: oh the inter webs we weave
09:49 PM scooty__puff: test
09:50 PM Tom_L: pass
09:51 PM jesseg: fail :P
10:58 PM jesseg: I think I figured out why I so love such an awful thing as perl. It's because I can put things like "/[(:)]/" in my code and it does something useful.