#linuxcnc Logs
Jul 19 2019
#linuxcnc Calendar
02:09 AM Loetmichel: mornin'
02:14 AM Loetmichel: maaan those enders print niiice now... even at 60mm/s -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17424&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
02:32 AM Deejay: moin
03:27 AM Loetmichel: i still cant get over how well those ender3 are printing now, even at high speed (60mm/sec)... thats like industrial quality (click picture for full res): http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17427
04:44 AM bjorkintosh: Loetmichel, how much did yours cost?
04:45 AM XXCoder: just $10
04:45 AM bjorkintosh: hahahaha
04:45 AM bjorkintosh: nice discount.
04:45 AM bjorkintosh: amazon prime day?
04:45 AM XXCoder: lol dunno what Loetmichel boughgt
04:46 AM XXCoder: i just used random number
04:46 AM XXCoder: talking about amazon prime, apparently they mispriced a lot of cameras that is worth $3k or more as just $95
04:46 AM XXCoder: and BIGGG len as $95 also.
04:46 AM XXCoder: that ones $5k
04:46 AM bjorkintosh: yeah. too late now.
04:46 AM bjorkintosh: it'll never happen again.
04:46 AM XXCoder: yeah
04:47 AM XXCoder: maybe dunno
04:47 AM XXCoder: i bought few $500 ram sticks for $10 each once lol
04:47 AM XXCoder: they gave me $50 coupon each, and refnded money
04:50 AM XXCoder: what did loet buy anyway
04:51 AM bjorkintosh: an Ender 3 3D printer.
04:51 AM XXCoder: oh cool
04:53 AM Tom_L: morning
04:53 AM Loetmichel: bjorkintosh: 153 eur each
04:53 AM Loetmichel: bought two at once
04:53 AM bjorkintosh: for faster printing?
04:53 AM XXCoder: only 135 for printer?
04:53 AM XXCoder: clone or real?
04:54 AM Loetmichel: real ender3 pro
04:54 AM Loetmichel: 158 for single
04:54 AM Loetmichel: got 5eur discount for buying two ;)
04:54 AM XXCoder: lol
04:54 AM bjorkintosh: Loetmichel, which software do you use with it?
04:55 AM XXCoder: just saw pic
04:55 AM XXCoder: honestly looks prety nice
04:55 AM Loetmichel: cure 4.1 and repetier server
04:55 AM Loetmichel: cura
04:56 AM Loetmichel: and the original firmware, whatever that is (i suggest marlin)
04:58 AM bjorkintosh: has anyone here ever built an EDM?
05:00 AM Loetmichel: nope
05:02 AM Centurion_Dan: bjorkintosh: I worked on an EDM mostly making the die relief for aluminium extrusion dies... but that was like 25 years ago....
05:10 AM jthornton: morning
05:11 AM XXCoder: yo
05:16 AM bjorkintosh: ah.
05:17 AM miss0r2: Morning
05:17 AM miss0r2: I've now spend the better part of three days trying to locate a shaper 'round here. Apparently I must give up..
05:18 AM bjorkintosh: shaper? can't use a mill?
05:20 AM miss0r2: bjorkintosh: For alot of things, yeah. But I need to do alot of odd internal keyways, splines & square inside corners in a near future
05:20 AM bjorkintosh: ah. shapers are not that popular at all.
05:21 AM bjorkintosh: everyone just throws them on a ... turning center.
05:21 AM miss0r2: I know. And they are a relic from a bygone age... but I would love to have one for some upcomming projects
05:21 AM bjorkintosh: world is going to hell in a hand basket and the basket is going to be made on a CNC machine!
05:21 AM bjorkintosh: miss0r2, do you have a bridgeport?
05:22 AM miss0r2: No.. I have a Deckel Maho 500C
05:22 AM bjorkintosh: 'cause there're shaper attachement available for bridgeport mills.
05:22 AM bjorkintosh: too bad you have one of those fanCNC things.
05:23 AM bjorkintosh: I knew someone who had a shaper years ago. might find one on craigslist or something. they get discarded a lot.
05:23 AM miss0r2: 2 secs, phone
05:25 AM jthornton: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rockford-20-inch-metal-shaper-made-in-the-USA/153527685889?hash=item23bef69301:g:klEAAOSws7FcrqF7
05:27 AM jthornton: https://www.machineryplans.com/product/acto-super-8-metal-shaper-plans/
05:34 AM miss0r2: I seem to recall seeing a shaper insert for the maho at some point
05:34 AM miss0r2: but I can't remember when and where - at the time I didn't need it, and had too little foresight to think about a distant future where I would
05:34 AM miss0r2: that 20" looks cute.. But I was hoping for a 7-10" one
05:35 AM miss0r2: Space is very much of the issue here in the shop. also; That machine is located somewhere in the US. Shipping would kill me, trying to get it here to Denmark
05:35 AM miss0r2: scratch that... it is in canada...
05:35 AM miss0r2: but shipping would still kill me :D
05:36 AM jthornton: did you see the plans to make one?
05:36 AM miss0r2: jthornton: Yeah. That does sound like a cool project. But I don't have that kind of time, sadly
05:41 AM miss0r2: shapers used to be something that was just bundled in machine deals, because everyone had'em and noone used'em. Now I fscking need one and I can't find one, locally that is
05:44 AM bjorkintosh: oh Denmark! that's the whole problem.
05:44 AM bjorkintosh: just move to North America.
05:45 AM bjorkintosh: plenty of space too.
05:45 AM miss0r2: nah... I like having three phases in my household installation :)
05:45 AM bjorkintosh: bah!
05:45 AM miss0r2: :]
05:46 AM miss0r2: which is a must with the equipment I run in here
05:47 AM bjorkintosh: what do you make usually miss0r2?
05:47 AM miss0r2: Hardly the same thing alot of times :)
05:48 AM miss0r2: I repair machinery for a living - CNC mills, lathes ect.. but mostly some of the older equipment
05:48 AM miss0r2: I turn my dime making spare parts for those older machine tools, which are no longer available
05:48 AM bjorkintosh: oh nice!
05:49 AM miss0r2: I also take in smaller productions. <10 productions ect
05:49 AM bjorkintosh: very fascinating. I was at a car plant in detroit last year while a press was being repaired. it was easily two stories tall.
05:50 AM miss0r2: yeah... I don't do alot of press repairs.
05:50 AM miss0r2: :)
05:50 AM miss0r2: But in three weeks time I get on a plane to go to Riga, to fix a boring mill.
05:50 AM bjorkintosh: I just couldn't fathom how they knew how to fix the damn thing given that it was manufactured in the '50s
05:50 AM miss0r2: apparently, I am one of the few around that have actualy repaired on this specific model before
05:50 AM XXCoder: bjork when elio bought old car factory, they had to sell off 2 million tons press
05:50 AM XXCoder: yes thats tons
05:51 AM bjorkintosh: good heavens!
05:51 AM bjorkintosh: how ARE those things machined???
05:51 AM XXCoder: it had to be on special concerete floor because it deals with homgious force
05:51 AM bjorkintosh: how? how? how?? how???
05:51 AM miss0r2: slowly :D
05:52 AM miss0r2: some of the parts could've been made on the boring mill I have to go repair soon. it has 24meter x travel, 12meter Y travel and 2.8meter z-travel. (horisontal spindle)
05:52 AM sync: they are just big hydraulic presses
05:52 AM bjorkintosh: yeah. how do you machine the cylinders?
05:52 AM XXCoder: lathe?
05:53 AM sync: on a lathe?
05:53 AM bjorkintosh: ... you need a bigger lathe.
05:53 AM bjorkintosh: but how do you make that bigger lathe?
05:53 AM sync: not really
05:53 AM bjorkintosh: oh?
05:53 AM XXCoder: you can make bugger lathe with smaller lathe
05:53 AM sync: that is the neat thing about hydraulics
05:53 AM sync: you don't need a lot of space
05:53 AM sync: and making long round things is a solved problem
05:53 AM bjorkintosh: how do you mean?
05:54 AM sync: you can just go out and buy a lathe that swings >4m diameter parts over 20m long
05:54 AM XXCoder: lathe is over 5000 years old
05:54 AM bjorkintosh: what about the big giant gears? https://www.eddigest.com/images/products/giantgears_fp.jpg
05:54 AM XXCoder: more advanced stuff is quite recent but yeah
05:55 AM bjorkintosh: oh I know it's old ... egyptians and whatnot.
05:55 AM sync: you just chuck them in a lathe and turn them
05:55 AM sync: most probably a horizontal lathe
05:55 AM sync: you can get them with insane diameters
05:56 AM bjorkintosh: I completely understand that they're first cast, heat treated and machined.
05:56 AM bjorkintosh: i work in a shop that makes rather large things too.
05:56 AM bjorkintosh: but some of these older machines just blow my damned mind!
05:56 AM sync: they are exactly the same as new ones tho
05:57 AM miss0r2: handscraping all the way :)
05:57 AM miss0r2: not so much anymore
05:57 AM bjorkintosh: like the old krupp steam hammers.
05:57 AM sync: reputable mfgs still scrape their machines
05:57 AM sync: although it is kinda pointless imo
05:57 AM bjorkintosh: why?
05:57 AM miss0r2: sync: Yeah well.. that is down to a few japanese companies, I believe
05:58 AM sync: no
05:58 AM sync: DMG does it
05:58 AM miss0r2: sync: Why would you say pointless?
05:58 AM sync: hermle too
05:58 AM miss0r2: on what parts?!
05:58 AM sync: because a ground surface is as good as a scraped one
05:58 AM miss0r2: sync: no?
05:58 AM sync: dmg scrapes the linear rail mounting flanges
05:59 AM miss0r2: okay - that seems pointless
05:59 AM sync: and some flanges of other parts
05:59 AM sync: there is no reason why you need to scrape a non moving interface
05:59 AM miss0r2: ground parts are potentially as 'flat' as a scraped one. But scraped surfaces has other advantages
05:59 AM miss0r2: Indeed
05:59 AM bjorkintosh: scraped with what?
05:59 AM bjorkintosh: i thought grinding was the final word in precision?
06:00 AM miss0r2: it is, and it isn't
06:00 AM sync: there are no sliding interfaces anymore in a machine that need to be scraped
06:00 AM XXCoder: talking about scapping, rocks at work all got certifited again after flattening again lol
06:00 AM miss0r2: sync: That is where a few japanese companies comes in
06:00 AM sync: sure, but most everything is on rollers now
06:00 AM miss0r2: yeah
06:01 AM miss0r2: bjorkintosh: hand scraping with a hand scraper or an electric scraper. Using a refrence surface to transfer die to mark the highspots and remove those with a scraper
06:01 AM miss0r2: rinse & repeat
06:01 AM miss0r2: sync: There are a few things left in this world where it still makes sense to scrape
06:01 AM bjorkintosh: yikes.
06:02 AM sync: yes, presses and such like
06:02 AM sync: or dies
06:02 AM miss0r2: like large thin objects. I know a realy pro scraper hand. he was tasked with scraping some test equipment that were to go into space
06:03 AM bjorkintosh: hmm. nice.
06:03 AM miss0r2: it was 2 meters in diameter, 10mm thick and hollow in the middle.. like a realy large washer. With all sort of electronicals on the inside
06:03 AM bjorkintosh: machinists in space.
06:03 AM sync: it really depends, if the grinder knows what he does it'll be equivalent
06:03 AM sync: I had some parts for a litho machine made by nagase integrex
06:04 AM miss0r2: he spend two months scraping it to perfection - they came to inspect it, aprooved it, and gave him the real job, which was exactly the same, but not on a dummy with broken electronics inside :D
06:04 AM bjorkintosh: a cnc grinder surely should be okay, no?
06:04 AM miss0r2: sync: Sure.. A grinder can do alot, but this part would be close to impossible to grap
06:04 AM miss0r2: putting it on a magbase would just distort it
06:04 AM sync: you just load it onto the table
06:05 AM sync: nagase is not joking around, when they say they can grind you a 600nm divot into a 2.5m long bar, they'll do it
06:05 AM sync: I was _really_ suprised that the part was made correctly
06:05 AM bjorkintosh: why? you said they don't joke around!
06:06 AM bjorkintosh: surprise would be if they made it badly and said "just kidding!" :-D
06:06 AM sync: the original part was lapped and apparently selected for fit
06:06 AM sync: and they just ground it from stock
06:06 AM miss0r2: sync: yeah.. well :) I don't know all the specifics, but I would assume they choose a scraper for a reason :)
06:06 AM bjorkintosh: maybe 0.0005 on the high side.
06:07 AM sync: miss0r2: probably not, a lot of the precision voodoo, is voodo
06:07 AM sync: o
06:07 AM sync: with people choosing a method because they feel comfortable with it
06:07 AM miss0r2: That might also be the case :)
06:07 AM sync: not for a particular reason
06:07 AM bjorkintosh: voodoo? you have indicators mounted on granite which will show you what's what. how's that voodoo?
06:08 AM miss0r2: I myself still do alot of hand scraping around here.
06:08 AM miss0r2: I repair alot of machines with dovetails ect..
06:08 AM miss0r2: and I don't much feel like making a grinding jig for them all :D
06:08 AM jthornton: do you use a power scraper?
06:09 AM miss0r2: jthornton: As often as I can get away with it
06:09 AM sync: I need to make new sliders for my biax
06:09 AM sync: it's amazing how tight the head needs to be
06:09 AM miss0r2: sync: Yeah.. Can't you just rework them?
06:10 AM miss0r2: I lapped mine into a realy nice state
06:10 AM sync: I'm not sure
06:11 AM sync: I way suprised ho bad the mounting surface is
06:11 AM miss0r2: hmm... that does not sound good
06:11 AM sync: looks like some guy in his first year chiseled them out with a dull screwdriver
06:11 AM sync: it's the same on both of my biaxes
06:11 AM miss0r2: hmm. That sounds odd
06:12 AM miss0r2: I can tell mine were machined with a large endmill.. but not as bad as you are describing
06:13 AM miss0r2: uh oh... just got a leet on a shaper
06:14 AM jthornton: leet?
06:16 AM miss0r2: like a police clue? :D
06:16 AM jthornton: lead
06:28 AM tiwake: I wrote an overview article on mass production a couple days ago
06:29 AM tiwake: mostly to illustrate how much effort goes into setting up a production line on that kind of scale
06:44 AM Elmo40: there is a threshold to how large a production line can get until human inefficiencies ruin it.
06:56 AM tiwake: sure
07:02 AM sync: eh that really depends
07:03 AM tiwake: sync: I mean, nothing scales to the extremes
07:05 AM tiwake: rockets don't really scale up, and 1950's project orion does not scale down at all... newtonian physics does not scale to the extreme small... list goes on
07:06 AM tiwake: https://lexic.co/tiwake/high-volume-manufacturing
07:09 AM sync: I don't get how this is an article about high volume mfg
08:17 AM * JT-Shop doesn't understand why people think I have some magical tracking power over the USPS...
08:19 AM methods_: don't play modest
08:20 AM methods_: we all know you're a usps wizard
09:04 AM jthornton: well hell, my new debian 9 hard drive want's my log in and just keeps going back to the login screen
09:10 AM jthornton: I found the problem... saved .xsessionrc from github and it saved the web page...
09:12 AM perry_j1987: morning
09:13 AM jthornton: morning
09:33 AM perry_j1987: trying to see if fusion 360 is capable of generating gcode for offset 4th axis
09:33 AM perry_j1987: like a crankshaft imagine
09:33 AM perry_j1987: what are you up too today
10:06 AM perry_j1987: im getting close with multi-axis flow
10:09 AM gregcnc: If they would get it to do some contouring I'd try it.
10:14 AM perry_j1987: its not looking "safe" to run yet
10:14 AM perry_j1987: also its leaving some stock and no settings to adjust it that i can find yet
10:14 AM perry_j1987: on the ends of the path
10:14 AM perry_j1987: ie its not going all the way to the sidewalls
10:19 AM Loetmichel: *haha* I think i frusted my coworker today... he is trying all day in freecad to modify a part for a 3dprinter... managed to get it copied 4 times 90° on all axis, but the drills are still 0.5mm off... $me started MoI, took 1,5 hours and already have the same part made from scratch to the point that just the drills are missing he is fiddling with ;)
10:20 AM gregcnc: no expense spared for CAD at your place?
10:21 AM Loetmichel: indeed
10:22 AM gregcnc: this cad is free use it.....several hundred man hours later....
10:23 AM Loetmichel: gregcnc: MoI is only $300, so REALLY "free" if you consider its ease of use... thats my second part i design in it.
10:23 AM Loetmichel: never did 3d design before, i do all my metalworks in corel draw 8 (2d)
10:24 AM gregcnc: why is the other guy on freecad?
10:24 AM Loetmichel: because boss wants us to use that
10:24 AM Loetmichel: <- has paid for MoI himself
10:24 AM gregcnc: that's what I meant
10:25 AM gregcnc: i hope you gave him a bill
10:25 AM Loetmichel: nope. but i WILL use that case as an argument to switch to MoI next time he is in house
10:25 AM Loetmichel: (friday is his off day)
10:26 AM gregcnc: so he works sat-thurs?
10:27 AM Loetmichel: no, mon-thurs
10:28 AM Loetmichel: he has 400km commute. usually he is here mon/tue, then drives home, comes thu/fri and stays the weekend at home again
10:28 AM Loetmichel: but this week we had a customer conference on wed
10:28 AM gregcnc: holy dang
11:33 AM Loetmichel: gregcnc: point is that boss forced hin to use Freecad, agains my advice that we sould use MoI BCAUSE its easy to learn.
11:33 AM Loetmichel: that part i designed today is my second part in MoI... just for reference
11:34 AM roycroft: can moi generate gcode?
11:36 AM Loetmichel: nope, that we have CamBam for
11:36 AM Loetmichel: or cura if its a 3dprint
11:36 AM roycroft: ok
11:36 AM roycroft: so moi can save in a format that those cam apps can read
11:37 AM roycroft: i don't use solidworks all that often
11:37 AM gloops: tell the lads their homework this month is learn Freecad
11:37 AM roycroft: i have an older version that i don't want to pay to upgrade
11:37 AM Loetmichel: yes, MoI can save nearly any 3d and 2d format
11:37 AM roycroft: and i would prefer to work with a cad app that runs natively in macos
11:37 AM roycroft: so i'm kind of looking around for something new
11:37 AM roycroft: fusion360 is completely out of the question
11:38 AM roycroft: i'm not going to use something that is cloud-based, period
11:38 AM gloops: lol
11:38 AM roycroft: moi + cambam is <$500
11:38 AM roycroft: so that's not bad
11:38 AM gregcnc: if it works for you
11:38 AM roycroft: and i have no idea about that
11:38 AM Loetmichel: roycroft: http://moi3d.com/
11:38 AM roycroft: i'll find out
11:38 AM roycroft: yeah, i've looked at the website briefly
11:39 AM gloops: you can do dimensional drawings in Blender
11:39 AM Loetmichel: its a nurbs modeller though, not meant as a mechanical cad. but you CAN edit numerically
11:39 AM roycroft: freecad is rather challenging to approach
11:39 AM * roycroft is being polite
11:39 AM Loetmichel: roycroft: indeed, that was the point
11:39 AM Loetmichel: boss forced us to use freecad because "free"
11:40 AM Loetmichel: that that one blunder today had cost the company more than the $300 that MoI costs he doesent see
11:40 AM gregcnc: going from industry standard to something less so is rarely easy
11:40 AM roycroft: sounds like my boss
11:40 AM gloops: i liked freecad when i was learning it, had some annoying bugs at the time, but just the bread and butter feel of it, i liked
11:40 AM roycroft: gloops: i don't mind the workflow model of freecad inherently
11:41 AM roycroft: it's basically a bunch of individual tools
11:41 AM gloops: it feels like a linux/freeware app
11:41 AM roycroft: you flow your work through one tool at a time
11:41 AM roycroft: that's not a bad way of doing things
11:41 AM roycroft: but it has a fairly steep learning curve
11:41 AM roycroft: and i'm not sure i want to invest that much time in it
11:42 AM * roycroft notes that he still uses troff for formatting documents, and so is quite used to flowing work through one tool at a time as opposed to some huge, bloated, monolithic wysiwig app
11:42 AM roycroft: wysiwyg
11:43 AM Loetmichel: roycroft: indeed. thats why i was sugessted to look at MoI by the designer that works for us from time to time, he helped design the UI for it.
11:43 AM Loetmichel: and he is right: that programm IS easy to learn
11:43 AM * jthornton has to remember that next time one of the man pages has an error
11:44 AM roycroft: do you still want those grinding discs, jthornton?
11:44 AM roycroft: i may be going to the steel yard soon
11:44 AM Loetmichel: as i said: took me less than 2 hours to (re)create a 3d model of that: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17406
11:45 AM jthornton: yes
11:45 AM roycroft: ok, i'll see if they still have some when i go
11:45 AM roycroft: i think it will be in a couple weeks
11:45 AM jthornton: ok thanks
11:45 AM roycroft: i'll let you know
11:46 AM gregcnc: uhm. all day in freecad? two hours in mol? don't you have CAD people there?
11:47 AM roycroft: i may end up continuing to use solidworks 2012 indefinitely
11:47 AM roycroft: i don't recall if it even runs on windows 10
11:47 AM roycroft: but windows 7 is going eol soon
11:48 AM roycroft: not that it really matters much - i run solidworks in a virtual machine that's never connected to the internet
11:48 AM roycroft: so running an old, unsupported os is not an issue
11:49 AM Loetmichel: gregcnc: as i said: its my second model i ever made in MoI
11:49 AM Loetmichel: and no, we have no "cad people"
11:50 AM Loetmichel: i do my own designs for all the metalworking stuff in corelDraw.
11:50 AM Loetmichel: version 8
11:50 AM Loetmichel: any questions?
11:50 AM gregcnc: how does this company survive?
11:50 AM Loetmichel: with a lot of effort
11:52 AM Loetmichel: the coworker that was forced to use freecat is one of our "unskilled workers" that boss thinks has enough potential to learn CAD work
11:52 AM gloops: seems it might be a bit of false economy though?
11:52 AM Loetmichel: so he tasked him with learning freecad "on the job"
11:52 AM Loetmichel: all by himself
11:52 AM gloops: paying a man a days wages to faff about in freecad
11:52 AM gloops: not many days youve got a years subscription to a pro app
11:52 AM Loetmichel: he is as new to freecad as i am to MoI
11:53 AM Loetmichel: but its a lot easer to learn the latter, so i have a lot less problems
11:53 AM Loetmichel: also Freecad seems to be slightly less than "bugfree"
11:54 AM gregcnc: there must be huge margins in the product to be able to run like that
11:54 AM perry_j1987: it would be hard to do what i do without Fusion 360
11:54 AM Loetmichel: gloops: there ARE no pro apps that are NOT subscription based and always on any more
11:54 AM Loetmichel: even autocad doesent work in the newest version without connection to the servers
11:54 AM roycroft: but someone still has to learn the pro app
11:55 AM Loetmichel: and we do military devices... leaking constructions that way is a blunder we would NOT survive
11:55 AM gloops: you have broadband at the workplace?
11:55 AM Loetmichel: sure
11:55 AM gloops: oh i see, secrecy is an issue
11:55 AM gregcnc: yeah, you hire a designer
11:55 AM * roycroft is often not connected to the internet, yet still wants to be able to work with his software
11:56 AM roycroft: that's one big reason for my refusal to use cloud-based apps
11:56 AM gregcnc: sucks that it's 2019
11:56 AM gloops: lol
11:56 AM roycroft: i also do not want to store my files on some cloud server that can go away at any time
11:56 AM gloops: you can save the files as hard copies
11:56 AM roycroft: sucks to feel compelled to be enslaved to a network connection :)
11:57 AM Loetmichel: roycroft: now add to that fact that those servers are in the US of A with some carrot haired idiot at the helm atm and you do sensitive military tech... ;)
11:57 AM roycroft: so i save my drawing that i spent 100 hours working on as hard copy
11:57 AM roycroft: the cloud goes away
11:57 AM roycroft: i need to edit the drawing
11:57 AM roycroft: i get to spend another 100 hours recreating it
11:57 AM gloops: its a solution, thats all, you cant really base business decisions on war of the machines fears lol
11:57 AM roycroft: no thanks
11:58 AM Loetmichel: i dont think machines will wage war
11:58 AM roycroft: loetmichel: i'm avoiding that topic because it's even more controversial than the reasons that i *am* discussing
11:58 AM Loetmichel: but some people with a crooked world view already said they would do it if they see fit
11:59 AM roycroft: i disagree with my boss on almost everything
11:59 AM Loetmichel: roycroft: oh sorry. i meant from an outside view, our company is in germany. you cant rely on american servers, even if there were no warmonger at the helm there now
11:59 AM roycroft: but one thing we both agree on is that we will have no critical services that depend on "the cloud"
12:00 PM roycroft: we have in-house control of everything critical
12:00 PM Loetmichel: if not for anyting that would violate customer (mostly european military and serives) policies ;)
12:00 PM Tom_L: roycroft, it's good for the soul
12:00 PM roycroft: and will always maintain that
12:00 PM gloops: i dont think autocad moved to the cloud because they wanted to spy on small part designers and steal their ideas, its probably mainly about pirating their software
12:00 PM Loetmichel: gloops: even if so
12:00 PM Tom_L: it's just a matter of time and every major software will be cloud based
12:01 PM Loetmichel: data that is "aviable" wakes desires
12:01 PM roycroft: it's more about moving to a subscription model and ensuring recurring revenue, vs. the folks who do one-off purchases and continue to use the same version for a long time (i'm still on autocad 2008, for example)
12:01 PM Loetmichel: especially for services like CIA and so on
12:01 PM Tom_L: err should i say subscription based
12:01 PM roycroft: tom_l: fortunately open source software is improving in quality
12:01 PM gloops: roycroft that too, but if youre making good money it shouldnt be a problem
12:01 PM Tom_L: not quick enough
12:01 PM roycroft: i hardly use adobe tools any more, because the open source stuff has improved so much
12:01 PM gloops: autocad do actually want you to make money
12:01 PM roycroft: and i'm not a professional graphics designer
12:02 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: we have ONE Autocad 2000 lt license thats on the machine of our secretary/receptionist/Dipl.Ing mechanic
12:02 PM Loetmichel: :-)
12:02 PM roycroft: gloops: we bought autocad when i was working on a major project that brought my company well into six figures of revenue
12:02 PM roycroft: the ~$5k for the autocad license was trivial to justify
12:03 PM roycroft: now i use autocad for personal stuff mostly
12:03 PM roycroft: it's really hard to cost justify upgrade support for that
12:03 PM Tom_L: i purchased some adobe software and now they telline it won't work anymore because there's a newer cloud based version
12:03 PM roycroft: i have cs4, i think
12:03 PM roycroft: or cs6
12:03 PM roycroft: whatever is the last version that was not cloud-based
12:04 PM roycroft: i stopped "upgrading" after that
12:04 PM gloops: i guess theres been a big lag with CAD - after smart individuals and hobbyists aquired the ability to build affordable cnc machines, they still dont have CAD software cheap or free
12:04 PM roycroft: i originally purchased a student license of creative suite, while i was a student
12:04 PM roycroft: adobe kindly let me upgrade that to a commerial license after i was done with school
12:05 PM roycroft: and i continued to purchase upgrades until they moved to the cloud
12:05 PM gloops: there are old versions of sketchup that work offline, can still be downloaded from their site
12:05 PM gregcnc: CAD is a tool, just so happens to be a valuable tool
12:06 PM * roycroft will not express his opinion about google again
12:06 PM gloops: no CAD - no CNC
12:06 PM gloops: or..get G-coding
12:06 PM roycroft: one can hand-craft g-code
12:06 PM gregcnc: lack of CAD/CAM just means you won't be competitive
12:06 PM roycroft: it depends on what you're doing
12:06 PM Tom_L: yeah google should come out with an online based cad cam system !!
12:07 PM gregcnc: you can still make money as a blacksmith, but opportunities are limited..
12:07 PM gregcnc: you make choices
12:07 PM roycroft: that's what life is about
12:08 PM roycroft: i'm not trying to tell any of you not to use cloud-based apps
12:08 PM roycroft: do whatever you want
12:08 PM roycroft: but it's not something i'll ever do
12:09 PM Loetmichel: same here
12:09 PM Tom_L: i'm still using 30 yr old software
12:10 PM Tom_L: but it still generates a good tool path
12:10 PM gregcnc: I hand code the lathe, good paths most of the time?
12:11 PM Loetmichel: also i detest the chutzpah with which the big players try to feed the students/small companys with "free" versions of their software just to rake in big money when said students/small companies got big or working in big companys and now can only do one tool
12:11 PM Tom_L: Loetmichel it's called marketing
12:11 PM Tom_L: chip makers do the same thing
12:13 PM Loetmichel: so the company is forced to pay their ridicilous monthly fees
12:13 PM Loetmichel: i know, and its good marketing for your product if you can pull that off... its still detestable imho
12:14 PM gregcnc: so companies use product they don't like and is too expensive for what reason?
12:14 PM Loetmichel: hmm?
12:14 PM Loetmichel: i didnt say that
12:14 PM Tom_L: cost to replace and retrain
12:15 PM gregcnc: you did
12:15 PM Loetmichel: just that they are forced to use it if they cant get a cad any more that works standalone and on a single purchase
12:15 PM Loetmichel: what tom said
12:16 PM gregcnc: if they didn't the other companies would, and soon doors are closed
12:16 PM Tom_L: the average small company doesn't want to do that
12:16 PM Tom_L: and if they do, they risk loosing the trained help
12:16 PM Loetmichel: the companys that need CAD in their product chain simply dont have much choice these days to use anything but cloud based solutions OR train the designers to some "odd" product themselves
12:16 PM Tom_L: but that could happen no matter what
12:18 PM gregcnc: it's a complicated business decision, in the end you do what makes money
12:19 PM roycroft: and is sustainable
12:19 PM Loetmichel: gregcnc: yes
12:19 PM Loetmichel: exactly
12:19 PM Loetmichel: i cant see for companys like us that have 8 workers to pay a designer full time
12:20 PM Loetmichel: some of the "workers", me included have to do the design work
12:20 PM gregcnc: sustainable = makes money
12:20 PM Loetmichel: and on tools that dont cost more than the salary of said worker each month ;)
12:21 PM Loetmichel: gregcnc: nope. sustainable = doesent lose money
12:21 PM gregcnc: yeah but throwing away 1/8 of the workforce to learn CAD
12:21 PM Loetmichel: "learning on the job"
12:21 PM Loetmichel: so not entirely thrown away
12:22 PM Loetmichel: he may take longer to do what he is supposed to do, but finally it will bear fruits
12:22 PM Loetmichel: one way or the other
12:22 PM gloops: get some student in part time, he/she'd be glad of some pin money
12:23 PM Loetmichel: the two hours i invested today may be contraproductive though because it demotivated him to learn freecad, seeing that i could do it in basically no time with not much more knowedge than him to start with
12:23 PM gloops: or on placement from college - free
12:23 PM Loetmichel: gloops: thats short sighted and doesent work as a long term solution
12:24 PM Loetmichel: or did you mean to tutor said coworker?
12:24 PM gloops: get someone whos doing cad
12:24 PM Tom_L: my kid has catia, solidworks, mastercam, autocad training and they hired him as a machinist.
12:25 PM gloops: Tom_L did he want to be on the machines?
12:25 PM Tom_L: he likes it but had no knowledge starting
12:26 PM gregcnc: drafter, designer, or engineer?
12:26 PM gloops: well, some hands on experience wont hurt if ever he returns to the CAD stuff
12:26 PM Loetmichel: Tom_L: i am hired as a "production manager"... i work as electronican, designer PCB/mechanical, machinist, house electrican, plumber if needed, "head of IT" and a dozen other jobs... ;)
12:26 PM Tom_L: no, i'm glad they both have the cad training and will likely use it eventually
12:26 PM Tom_L: i just thought it was a little ironic
12:28 PM gregcnc: he applied for a CAD position and took a machinist job?
12:28 PM Tom_L: winning 1st at state and 3rd in the nation as a draftsman actually got him the job
12:28 PM Tom_L: gregcnc, they came looking for him
12:28 PM Tom_L: he didn't apply
12:28 PM gloops: i know someone who did autocad for architecture, got a job for the Yorkshire Post newspaper, they said autodesk was an easy jump to make
12:29 PM gregcnc: is this a permenant thing or summer job?
12:29 PM Tom_L: permanent
12:29 PM Tom_L: he's 18
12:30 PM Tom_L: incidentally the other one got hired at the same place for similar reasons
12:31 PM Tom_L: one of their workers was on the 18yr old's team at the skills competetion this year
12:32 PM Tom_L: https://www.skillsusa.org/
12:32 PM gregcnc: so kids still actually get jobs right out of high school?
12:32 PM Tom_L: some do
12:32 PM Tom_L: if they're so motivated
12:32 PM skunkworks: Tom_L: awesome!
12:33 PM Tom_L: the prevous year the older one won state as well
12:33 PM Tom_L: he had to hand write a program and run it on a simulator
12:33 PM Tom_L: first time this vo'tech had competed in that particular competetion
12:34 PM Tom_L: i think he took 15th nationwide
12:34 PM Tom_L: must pass measuring skills etc as part of it
12:35 PM Tom_L: big companies attend this every year
12:35 PM Tom_L: he met the VP of Spirit (formerly Boeing) while he was there
12:37 PM Tom_L: he could have competed as a HS student but chose to compete as an adult
12:42 PM roycroft: i'm going to be making my first part using my new rotary table this weekend
12:43 PM roycroft: but i need to rotate the part around two different center points
12:43 PM Tom_L: how do you like it so far?
12:43 PM roycroft: so i'll be mounting an x-y table on top of the rotary table
12:43 PM roycroft: nothing like making things complicated the first time :)
12:43 PM roycroft: it has a fair amount of backlash that if i try to eliminate locks the table up
12:44 PM roycroft: but my understanding is that is fairly typical of rotary tables
12:44 PM roycroft: as long as i always crank it the same direction it should not be a problem
12:45 PM roycroft: i think i'll like it more than i like hand-grinding semi-precision curves
12:45 PM roycroft: but i'm stressing about the setup a bit
12:45 PM roycroft: i'll get that sorted out though, i'm sure
12:46 PM roycroft: and i'll probably make the part out of plywood first, to be sure i have everything dialed in properly
01:21 PM andypugh: Tom_L: Sorry, I forgot to log out. Yes, it seems to be height above the board.
01:22 PM Tom_L: i noticed there was 1 part on the bottomside
01:22 PM Tom_L: the sd socket
01:22 PM andypugh: Yes, I forgot that at first in my case design. I had to go back and add an access hole.
01:23 PM Tom_L: it would have been too easy if they'd have added the widths for those connectors
01:32 PM pcw_mesa: That's probably asking too much, you have to remember the RPI guys first board had no mounting holes...
01:32 PM Tom_L: heh
01:35 PM jthornton: yuck two more days of this heat...
01:35 PM jthornton: chickens are eating ice to stay cool
01:35 PM Tom_L: spoiled
01:36 PM jthornton: very much so
01:36 PM Tom_L: are they laying boiled eggs?
01:36 PM jthornton: not laying much at all... about 0-4 eggs a day
01:36 PM Tom_L: too hot
01:37 PM jthornton: 33% of possible eggs so far this month
01:38 PM Tom_L: guy's coming this evening to do another moisture test. hopefully he'll get his equipment out of here so i can get back to normal
01:38 PM jthornton: what does he have in there?
01:39 PM Tom_L: 8 air movers and an industrial de'humidifier
01:39 PM Tom_L: still drying out a few walls
01:40 PM pink_vampire|2: hi
01:40 PM andypugh: Dryness is over-rated
01:40 PM Tom_L: mold isn't
01:40 PM andypugh: Mould is lovely, in the right place.
01:40 PM andypugh: Cheese, for example.
01:41 PM jthornton: lol
01:42 PM miss0r2: I found a shaper "locally"
01:42 PM miss0r2: 200km drive each way + a 2 hour ferry transport
01:43 PM miss0r2: in other words: 3/4 of the total expense of getting a shaper is being eaten by transportation
01:43 PM andypugh: “You can make anything with a shaper, except a profit”
01:44 PM miss0r2: andypugh: Yeah :) unless, like me, you are working by the hour
01:44 PM miss0r2: in which case, everything that improves your speed is a bad investment :D
01:45 PM andypugh: I specialise in losing money on everything I manufacture, but making up for it on volume.
01:45 PM andypugh: (Not true, I have bever made anything for profit. Which is just as well)
01:45 PM miss0r2: well; I only realy make one-ofs
01:46 PM miss0r2: or realy small batches.
01:46 PM miss0r2: So using a shaper is good for the odd setup
01:48 PM skunkworks: we haven't turned on our shaper in years..
01:48 PM jthornton: where did you find it at?
01:50 PM miss0r2: jthornton: On a forum post two years old about some guy wanting to find a new home for his shaper. The thread was dead cold, so I signed up for the forum, and wrote a personal message to the guy, who replied within the hour
01:50 PM jthornton: wow
01:51 PM jthornton: is in Denmark?
01:51 PM miss0r2: talk about a shot in the dark
01:51 PM miss0r2: yeah
01:51 PM gloops: is it any good though?
01:51 PM miss0r2: ...meh? http://frylundsmaskinforum.dk/fagteori/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2076.0;attach=4112;image
01:51 PM gloops: you know what its like, depserate for something, buy the first one you see
01:51 PM miss0r2: he tells me it runs, but it looks a bit weathered
01:52 PM miss0r2: well... its only realy one out of three. 1) its a shaper 2) 7-10" stroke length 3) good shape
01:52 PM gloops: looks ok
01:52 PM andypugh: Looks bigger than that?
01:53 PM miss0r2: andypugh: Yeah
01:53 PM miss0r2: that is why it realy only lives up to 1) its a shaper
01:53 PM andypugh: Things always look worse in photos, slideways especially.
01:53 PM miss0r2: yeah
01:53 PM andypugh: It’s got a better than average front support arrangement.
01:54 PM gloops: at least you can just leave it running taking some material off while you do other things
01:54 PM andypugh: Any idea what make it is?
01:54 PM miss0r2: and he only asks 267eur for it
01:55 PM miss0r2: Its a Varnamo
01:55 PM jthornton: can you move it or do you have to hire someone?
01:55 PM miss0r2: I can move it. I'm planning on renting a car transporter(one with a winch) and just take it home on that.
01:55 PM miss0r2: I have a forklift here to put it inside
01:56 PM andypugh: They break down pretty easily, if required.
01:56 PM miss0r2: Indeed
01:56 PM miss0r2: I must admit I am somewhat unsure if it is the one I want.
01:57 PM miss0r2: I have been known to jump on the first deal that vaugely looks like what I want
01:57 PM andypugh: I think it looks like a good solid one.
01:57 PM Tom_L: yeah
01:57 PM miss0r2: but it is realy much too big. its a 20" stroke
01:57 PM miss0r2: and I was looking for 7-10"
01:58 PM Tom_L: you must have a real need for one to take up the shop space
01:58 PM andypugh: I don’t think that’s a problem with a shaper. It’s only really lathes that can be too big.
01:58 PM miss0r2: "bigger is better" and "big machines can make small items/ small machines can't make big items" but I have a space issue here
01:58 PM gregcnc: did you move to a bigger space?
01:58 PM miss0r2: gregcnc: No :D
01:59 PM andypugh: (Big lathes have slow spindles, so are not so good for small stuff)
01:59 PM miss0r2: andypugh: sure.. but not moving too far from a middle road, the saying makes sense
01:59 PM andypugh: Actually, that might be true for shapers too. The cycle frequency that gives good cutting speed on 20” stroke might be very low for 1” stroke.
02:00 PM miss0r2: ... yeah. that does make sense
02:00 PM miss0r2: I'm torn here
02:00 PM andypugh: Offer a lot less?
02:00 PM miss0r2: gregcnc: As you can imagine I need to get creative with my planning
02:01 PM miss0r2: andypugh: The asking price is danger close to what the thing is worth in scrap metal
02:01 PM perry_j1987: been watching too many This Old Tony videos and want a shaper of your own now?
02:01 PM andypugh: I can imagine you are the only person in DK currently shopping for a shaper.
02:01 PM miss0r2: perry_j1987: Hehe, nah. I have a bunch of odd keyways comming my way
02:02 PM andypugh: Ah, well, then you want a big one.
02:02 PM miss0r2: andypugh: Please elaborate
02:03 PM andypugh: Add up the length of the part and the poky tool and the rotary table, and you soon drop off the end of the table on a small machine.
02:03 PM gregcnc: there is some fascination with shapers I don't understand
02:04 PM miss0r2: andypugh: To tell you the truth, I was considering just sparking it out with my EDM...
02:04 PM perry_j1987: gregcnc its freudian :P
02:04 PM andypugh: gregcnc: They are relaxing to run, like a lathe and unlike a milling machine. I don’t know anyone who finds minding a milling machine to be therapeutic.
02:04 PM perry_j1987: haha
02:04 PM gregcnc: oh lol,
02:05 PM gregcnc: andy, that's because it's not doing anyhting
02:05 PM gregcnc: but the turn of the century felling probably can't be beat
02:05 PM perry_j1987: watched that vid ToT did making qctp holders with his shaper
02:05 PM miss0r2: gregcnc: theres just some things where a shaper makes sense.
02:06 PM gregcnc: just not enough to justify the space
02:06 PM miss0r2: perry_j1987: Yeah.. but honnestly, wouldn't you rather have done that on a mill?
02:07 PM andypugh: I was actually talking about this earlier. I know a lot of folk who enjoy using a lathe, and fewer who enjoy a mill. I mean the actual process, not the creation of the parts. The difference is even greater when you look at woodworking, where people recreationally wood-turn making things that nobody wants, even themselves. You don’t find recreational routerers. People use routers purely for the final priduct.
02:07 PM miss0r2: well... have you ever listened to a woodrouter? :D
02:08 PM andypugh: That’s certainly part of it.
02:08 PM jthornton: yea I'd rather be covered in wood chips than listen to a screaming router
02:08 PM gregcnc: you just need one of these and the lathe to put it in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LrkWl_kYCg
02:08 PM miss0r2: I find those theraputic, as they outshout the voices in my head
02:09 PM miss0r2: Looking at this one on ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/South-Bend-Lathe-atlas-logan-ammco-Shaper-Machinist-milling-mill-/273860324725
02:09 PM gregcnc: seems like a long drive
02:10 PM miss0r2: higher asking price(alot), having to replace the motor to a three phase european one & having to pay out HUGE most likely for the shipping to denmark
02:10 PM miss0r2: but the size is right... thats something? :D
02:11 PM gregcnc: nothing in the EU at all?
02:11 PM miss0r2: bah.. I think I'll end up just sparking the keyways I need done soon & look for a more suitable deal
02:11 PM miss0r2: gregcnc: none that I can find.
02:12 PM miss0r2: even machineseeker is pulling a blank
02:13 PM gregcnc: space is premium there so they are all probably gone
02:13 PM miss0r2: yeah
02:13 PM miss0r2: I phoned 5 seprate machine resellers in Denmark, and they all told me it had been ages since they saw one. and one told me that all the shapers he came across he bought and exported to india
02:14 PM miss0r2: along with surface grinders and some other machinery
02:15 PM andypugh: You probably want an Elliott 10M
02:16 PM miss0r2: I can't quite figure out how big that thing is?
02:17 PM andypugh: Quite compact.
02:17 PM andypugh: http://www.lathes.co.uk/alba/
02:18 PM miss0r2: looks nice. I can't find any for sale, though :D
02:18 PM andypugh: We gave away our Ormerod (to a friend) and kept the Elliott.
02:19 PM miss0r2: andypugh: I'll take that thing off yer' hands - don't you worrie about it ;)
02:19 PM miss0r2: Strangely ebay has alot of suggestion regarding low waist jeans when searching for Elliott 10M
02:19 PM andypugh: Well, it’s clear my dad will never use it again, and it is 250 miles from my house.
02:20 PM * miss0r2 perks up
02:20 PM miss0r2: it is all fun and games, until it comes to paying for the shipment
02:20 PM gregcnc: https://chicago.craigslist.org/wcl/for/d/somonauk-atlas-7b-shaper/6935548868.html
02:20 PM andypugh: Yes, you would be swapping a 2 hour ferry for an 18 hour ferry
02:21 PM miss0r2: andypugh: In which case I would hire a company to handle the shipment for me ;)
02:21 PM andypugh: If it is largely for keyways, have you considered a slotting head for your mill instead?
02:22 PM miss0r2: andypugh: Yeah, I have also considered that. But it would seem that is alot harder to come across than a shaper(which is nearly impossible)
02:22 PM miss0r2: I'm running a Maho 500C
02:22 PM andypugh: Which mill do you have?
02:22 PM andypugh: Ah.
02:23 PM miss0r2: that would also be alot better for my quite limited space situation.
02:23 PM miss0r2: but I have spend hours even days trying to locate one of those
02:24 PM miss0r2: gregcnc: yeah, that looks nice
02:24 PM andypugh: The Scahublin one is too different? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SCHAUBLIN-12-MILLING-MACHINE-SLOTTING-HEAD-/163728850287?hash=item261efffd6f%3Ag%3A3pMAAOSwXoZdBVl1&nma=true&si=KwulmQE9GOUAokJXVsGWo2ZRHeY%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
02:24 PM miss0r2: but isn't the rule of thumb with craigslist, that you get either a) sexualy abused b) cheater c)killed d) all of the three ?
02:25 PM gregcnc: well, you'd have a shaper after
02:25 PM miss0r2: andypugh: "Listing has ended"
02:25 PM miss0r2: gregcnc.. :D
02:25 PM gregcnc: I'll never sell my mill on CL then
02:25 PM gregcnc: though i just got a message about it
02:25 PM miss0r2: never mind me, I only know what I've heard - we don't have craigslist in Denmark
02:25 PM andypugh: Yes, I know. I just remembeerd seeing it (and knoew it was either maho, deckel or schaublin)
02:26 PM miss0r2: last resort: build a slotting head myself
02:26 PM andypugh: Yes, I am tempted by that approach myself,
02:26 PM miss0r2: but I am in a bit of a pickle when it comes to time.. It is almost as scarce as space in here
02:26 PM andypugh: I was wondering about a slotting head with CNC rotation of the tool head, Then I could make internal gears.
02:27 PM miss0r2: I guess :)
02:27 PM miss0r2: if you want to wear down your cnc prematurely, you could also just mount a tool in your spindle and use your z-travel to do the deep
02:28 PM * miss0r2 also considered that :D
02:29 PM miss0r2: I think, for now, I'll have to settle on using the EDM for the comming keyways
02:29 PM andypugh: I have done that with my lathe a few times.
02:29 PM miss0r2: yeah, me too
02:29 PM gregcnc: that's done all the time though
02:29 PM miss0r2: indeed
02:29 PM andypugh: The Bridgeport slotting heads have a built in motor. So all you need to do is find a way to bolt them to the machine.
02:29 PM miss0r2: andypugh: If you do ever decide to sell that Elliott 10M, give me a notice - then I'll look into the shippinf cost
02:29 PM miss0r2: oh realy?
02:30 PM andypugh: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRIDGEPORT-SLOTTING-HEAD/263746188002?hash=item3d687f72e2:g:u9IAAOSwXSJbGvjj
02:30 PM miss0r2: heh - looking at the exact same one
02:32 PM miss0r2: hmmm. that seems doable
02:32 PM andypugh: Cheaper from a dealer! https://www.traceymachinery.co.uk/product-page/bridgeport-slotting-head
02:34 PM andypugh: This one is more Maho-coloured. And looks like an easier mounting proposition.
02:34 PM andypugh: https://www.traceymachinery.co.uk/product-page/slotting-head
02:35 PM miss0r2: I have now written them asking them for a quote on both, including shipping
02:36 PM miss0r2: It wouldn't take more than a beefy bracket to fit'em to the maho
02:36 PM miss0r2: Just remove the vertical head and pop it in place :D
02:36 PM miss0r2: This is alot better than a shaper for my needs, actualy
02:36 PM miss0r2: plus - i'd have CNC positioning of everything
02:37 PM andypugh: That beaver one looks like a very similar mount to the vertical head, in fact.
02:37 PM miss0r2: that being said, andypugh, I still have the hots for your Elliott 10M :D
02:37 PM miss0r2: Indeed
02:38 PM andypugh: I ought to get rid of the tools, but it’s hard to do while my dad is still (vaguely) alive.
02:38 PM andypugh: You can have a Colchester Triumph lathe if you want? That’s mine to give away.
02:39 PM miss0r2: If I can help it at all, I would rather not own an imperial lathe :D
02:39 PM miss0r2: but it is a nice lathe, from a machine repairmans point of view. They are well build machines
02:40 PM andypugh: Hmm, this is quite an old one: https://photos.app.goo.gl/phVqNXrE9bjqD1do8
02:40 PM andypugh: The cross slide is 6tpi and has about 8 marks on it. It’s only really usable if you add a DTI to that axis.
02:40 PM miss0r2: I *AM* on the market for a newer lathe.... :) but that one does not realy qualify as 'newer' :D
02:41 PM andypugh: https://photos.app.goo.gl/xGTCrP3JMgVmQ6Zt5
02:41 PM miss0r2: also; The shipping of a small shaper sounds alot cheaper than that huge hunk of metal
02:42 PM andypugh: You can see the Elliot shaper peeking out over the top of the table of the Kearns borer. While the Churchill grinder hides coyly under a sheet.
02:42 PM miss0r2: ahh - I missed that at first :)
02:42 PM miss0r2: This is the lathe I am using: https://drive.google.com/open?id=14ur2ZI8jCaPyjGjmMPeOtqNAgbnFBPQh
02:43 PM andypugh: TBH the only one of those tools that I will keep when the time comes is the boring machine.
02:43 PM miss0r2: it looks sturdy
02:43 PM miss0r2: I don't know that model, though
02:44 PM andypugh: It;s curiously long and slim.
02:44 PM miss0r2: yeah
02:44 PM miss0r2: its realy stable: You could set in on a mountain slope and still turn straight
02:44 PM miss0r2: the base itself is also cast iron
02:45 PM miss0r2: no ajustment feet - the only way you could force it into submission would be with footing clamps and shimstock
02:46 PM andypugh: It says “Zelenda” on the headstock, and “Zelenda” appears on www.lathes.co.uk
02:46 PM miss0r2: yeah. I can't find anything on it, though
02:46 PM andypugh: But only minimally in the list at the bottom.
02:47 PM miss0r2: I know it is from czech
02:47 PM miss0r2: and most likely from the '70s
02:48 PM miss0r2: 300mm max diameter on workpeices. 1500mm ways
02:48 PM miss0r2: on the photo it is mounted with a homemade ER32
02:48 PM gregcnc: headstock looks so small
02:49 PM miss0r2: yeah. its a tiny bore.. only 35mm
02:49 PM miss0r2: realy stable, though.
02:50 PM miss0r2: it can handle some pretty serious cuts. you know the kinds; where the chips hitting the chip tray sounds like quarters
02:50 PM andypugh: This looks like a xlose relative: https://www.epic-auctions.com/auctions/50-epic-auctions-june-auction-leende-earthmoving-equipment-and-construction/tools/mechanised-tools/25402-universal-draaibank/
02:51 PM gregcnc: the rest looks substantial
02:52 PM miss0r2: andypugh: Looks close, yeah
02:52 PM miss0r2: the machine itself is relative light weight, though.
02:52 PM miss0r2: I don't think its much over 1000kgs
02:52 PM jthornton: trying to test anything with the sims is just a PIA with all those stupid symlinks and locked crap
02:52 PM miss0r2: I didn't have a too hard time getting it in there
02:53 PM andypugh: If you Google for “ZN150 lathe” you find a fair few pics
02:53 PM miss0r2: andypugh: Yeah - one in particular helped me out alot when I dismanteled the gearbox to fix the clutch, and I dropped a shaft with 4 different gears on it, that all came sliding off :D
02:54 PM miss0r2: But this is honnestly the ever returning issue with machine tools - the information on the older less known models are very hard to come by on the internet
02:55 PM miss0r2: gregcnc: the thing that makes the headstock look so small is that theres no gearing inside of there
02:55 PM andypugh: There is something to be said for buying ones with an owner’s club.
02:55 PM miss0r2: hear hear
02:56 PM gregcnc: that's what I figured
02:56 PM andypugh: I am on the Rivett and Holbrook mailing lists.
02:56 PM miss0r2: gregcnc: Theres only one gear connecting to the feed gearbox down below. it is belt driven from the gearbox to the spindle
02:56 PM andypugh: My Holbrook also has no gears in the head.
02:56 PM andypugh: It was considered a desirable feature at one point.
02:56 PM miss0r2: andypugh: yeah - but that one looks less tiny
02:57 PM miss0r2: I find it tiresom...
02:57 PM andypugh: The Holbrook belt is a pretty wide Poly-Vee
02:57 PM miss0r2: When I indicate stuff in the 4-jaw, spinning it around - even with the gearbox disengaged, I still have to fight the dual belts..
02:57 PM miss0r2: its not *alot*, but less would be nice
02:59 PM miss0r2: I replaced the belts a while back, and felt like slapping myself afterwards. I managed to get two belts from two different batches...
02:59 PM miss0r2: so one is a little less tight than the other
02:59 PM miss0r2: I usualy ask for two from the same batch, but failed to do so on this particular order.
03:00 PM andypugh: You are meant to get actual _matched_ sets.
03:00 PM miss0r2: sure... I do that on *highspeed* situations. Usualy getting two from the same cut is plenty fine for a lathe of this age. but this time I didn't
03:01 PM andypugh: It is a commonly believed fact that un-matched belts cause noise, vibration and sundry ills comparable to Pandora’s box.
03:01 PM miss0r2: It realy does. I removed one belt. :D
03:01 PM miss0r2: I've never a situation where one belt wasn't enough
03:01 PM miss0r2: never had*
03:01 PM miss0r2: I usualy don't push my equipment that hard
03:05 PM miss0r2: I am also starting to consider finding a new home for my Roland DG PNC-3100 CAMM-3 model mill
03:05 PM miss0r2: I only ever use it for engraving stuff & the odd PCB isolation milling. But now that the PCBs are so cheap and fast to get build from the pros, I don't have any real reason to keep it around anymore
03:06 PM miss0r2: Would any of you guys be interrested?
03:13 PM andypugh: Not really, for the same reasons.
03:14 PM miss0r2: I don't blame'ya :)
03:14 PM miss0r2: Anyway, I'll call it a night. see you around
03:22 PM * JT-Shop should clean up something but the shop is such a mess dunno where to start...
03:28 PM pcw_mesa: That's nice, mesaflash works on the 7C80/SPI with a few minor tweaks (at least with a RPI3)
03:29 PM andypugh: Cool
03:29 PM andypugh: I have the Pi4 running LinuxCNC with Wifi and Bliuetooth now.
03:30 PM pcw_mesa: 0 Docs on mesaflash SPI
03:30 PM TurBoss: nice!
03:31 PM pcw_mesa: it like "sudo mesaflash --device 7C80 -- addr /dev/spi0.0 --whatever"
03:33 PM pcw_mesa: I wonder whats needed to get hm2_rpspi running on a PI4
03:34 PM andypugh: Are you sure it doesn’t work?
03:34 PM pcw_mesa: no way to know until i get a RPI4
03:34 PM andypugh: And no way for me to know without an SPI thingy
03:35 PM andypugh: Which of your boards eats SPI?
03:35 PM pcw_mesa: any can
03:35 PM andypugh: Hmm, but then I am going to Spain for 2 weeks on Monday
03:35 PM andypugh: Though I could take a Pi with me
03:35 PM pcw_mesa: standard ones are 7I90, 7C80, 7C81
03:37 PM pcw_mesa: I still need to hack mesaflash for the 7C81
03:37 PM andypugh: <Checks Mesa drawer>
03:37 PM andypugh: Yes, i have a 7i90
03:37 PM andypugh: brb, need to shop for dinner
03:37 PM pcw_mesa: futzy cable
03:41 PM pcw_mesa: I'll order a RPI4
03:41 PM Deejay: gn8
03:59 PM cerna: pcw_mesa: I read somewhere in old discussion that you were working on Ethercat connected FPGA hardware? Is it still on the table?
04:02 PM pcw_mesa: We have made some in the past but using Beckhoff interface chips I dont know if we will do it again
04:04 PM pcw_mesa: If we did it again we would use the MicroChip LAN9252
04:07 PM cerna: I am looking at the DieBieSlave https://github.com/DieBieEngineering/DieBieSlave but the 6 layers PCB is little over-the-top.
04:07 PM cerna: To just play with.
04:07 PM XXCoder: layers all way in
04:08 PM cerna: What about soft Ethercat IP core?
04:16 PM pcw_mesa: AFAIK the are no open source soft EtherCAT cores
04:18 PM andypugh: COuld there ever be, with the Beckhof license?
04:20 PM XXCoder: build everything
04:21 PM pcw_mesa: For a soft core probably not but unlike the Beckhoff parts,(ET1100 etc) the LAN9252 seems unencumbered so as long as all the magic is in the chip the rest of the FPGA code could be open source
04:26 PM cerna: Hmm, probably the closest to portability is Softing with it's additional licensing CPLD.
04:36 PM Tom_L: andypugh, Pi4 running preempt-rt?
04:36 PM andypugh: Yes
04:36 PM Tom_L: <andypugh> I have the Pi4 running LinuxCNC with Wifi and Bliuetooth now.
04:37 PM Tom_L: now you're just showing off
04:57 PM Tom_L: andypugh, do most of these connector dimensions look like the Pi4? https://grabcad.com/library/pi-5
04:58 PM Tom_L: that's obviously an early version
05:06 PM andypugh: Is the one I linked to unusable?
05:06 PM Tom_L: i must have missed it
05:06 PM andypugh: https://grabcad.com/library/raspberry-pi-3-b-1
05:07 PM andypugh: The F3d is astonishingly good
05:07 PM Tom_L: what opens that?
05:07 PM andypugh: But the others should be usable too
05:07 PM Tom_L: fusion?
05:07 PM andypugh: F3d is Fusion360
05:07 PM Tom_L: mmm i unloaded that unfortunately
05:08 PM andypugh: But there are STL and UGS there too
05:08 PM andypugh: STP and IGS I mean
05:08 PM Tom_L: i usually have better luck with iges
05:09 PM Tom_L: may get a chance to look this evening. got a guy coming right now to check the house
05:10 PM Tom_L: the mini hdmi? is what's missing?
05:11 PM andypugh: Yes
05:19 PM Tom_L: lower left plug a micro b usb?
05:22 PM pcw_mesa: Aren't the Ethernet and USB swapped on the 4 VS 3
05:23 PM Elmo40: that is one issue i have with these things. using a usb for power. what is so wrong with round terminals?
05:23 PM pcw_mesa: or a terminal block
05:24 PM Tom_L: Elmo40, space?
05:28 PM Elmo40: what space? a round wall-wart style power connector is tiny.
05:28 PM Elmo40: even smaller than a microUSB
05:29 PM Elmo40: doesnt need to be 5mm diameter. it can be the old Motorola phone size. about 2mm diameter.
05:35 PM jthornton: that's one of those things and aren't worth worrying about cause they ain't gonna change it...
05:41 PM pcw_mesa: The 7C80/7C81 power the card via the GPIO connector so doesn't matter for them
05:47 PM pcw_mesa: wonder If I can get push access to the mesaflash git repository since micges has wandered off...
05:48 PM jthornton: you could fork it
05:48 PM jthornton: or just make a new repository...
05:49 PM pcw_mesa: yeah that might be best, already has too many branches
05:51 PM jthornton: and the main branch is not the latest and that trips me up almost every time
05:51 PM pcw_mesa: Yeah and there is the 7I97 branch
05:52 PM jthornton: I didn't see that one
05:52 PM pcw_mesa: I need to figure out some not-too ugly scheme for pin numbers on cards the have "internal' pins
05:54 PM jthornton: is the 7i97 in stock?
05:54 PM pcw_mesa: The 7I96 readhmid pin list is muggly (and the 7C80 printed all pin numbers as 1456321)
05:54 PM jthornton: I don't see it at store.mesanet.com
05:55 PM jthornton: yikes
05:55 PM pcw_mesa: we have a buttload of them but the inputs.MPGs are not supported yet
05:56 PM pcw_mesa: I did a patch on the HM2 drivers PWM gen that's needed for the 7I97 but that needs to get merged
05:57 PM jthornton: the 7i98 looks cool too
05:57 PM pcw_mesa: 7I98 should be trivial to support. I really should get push access
05:58 PM pcw_mesa: (hostmot2 and mesaflash minor tweaks)
05:58 PM jthornton: looks like jepler, seb and cradek have push rights
05:58 PM pcw_mesa: it will work as is, but LinuxCNC will complain about an unknown board
06:00 PM jthornton: yea micges should pass mesaflash on to you as owner
06:01 PM jthornton: https://github.com/PeterMue/ZX45-LinuxCNC/wiki/Mesaflash
06:05 PM pcw_mesa: I could also fix mesaflash's help so it shows how to use the --addr token to specify the driver for SPI (and maybe serial)
06:10 PM andypugh: Eeek! The Iranians have just seixed a British ship
06:11 PM andypugh: If only we had a navy!
06:12 PM jthornton: we have one... maybe you can borrow a few?
06:13 PM andypugh: I think we have an aircraft carrier, but we are still waiting for the US to invent an aircraft fo fly off of it.
06:13 PM jthornton: too short?
06:16 PM _unreal_: going to put a rop/anchor design on a wooden spoon when this current project finishes
06:17 PM andypugh: Well, we sold the rights to make Harriers to the US, and we invented the steam catapult, but for some reason I am uncler on can no longer put them on our aircraft carrier, so we are hoping for a VTOL version of the F35B to appear
06:19 PM Tom_L: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW28Mb1YvwY
06:19 PM cerna: Hmm, couldn't he put the https://github.com/PeterMue/vscode-linuxcnc into the Marketlace? I almost started doing something similar...
06:20 PM Tom_L: all they need now is a helo pad. fill the rest with planes
06:20 PM andypugh: Tom_L: Looks like I am out of date, they exist and the RAF have some,
06:21 PM Tom_L: dime a dozen too :D
06:22 PM Tom_L: i wouldn't be surprised my kid makes parts for them. they do alot of military parts
06:22 PM jthornton: looks like it does VTO and VL much better than the harrier
06:23 PM _unreal_: sweet 30 seconds till my current milling project is done
06:32 PM jthornton: hmm must have blown up...
06:40 PM jdh: oops
06:44 PM jthornton: all right it's debian 10 at 15 paces in the morning... hope it goes well
06:46 PM Tom_L: stretch for what pc?
06:46 PM Tom_L: err buster...
06:46 PM pcw_mesa: Did you sort out the dependencies for Buster?
06:46 PM Tom_L: i was eventually gonna try that with RTAI
06:49 PM jthornton: yea, Seb sorted them out... dunno if he committed yet
06:50 PM jthornton: well except for gscreen, Chris needs to sort that out
06:50 PM jthornton: yea looks like Seb merged it
06:51 PM jthornton: it was a yapps issue mostly
06:53 PM jthornton: Tom_L: I'm installing debian 10 on my dev PC the one I do most of my programming on
06:57 PM Tom_L: i was eventually gonna test RTAI on it but they suggested i wait for updates to RTAI a bit
07:11 PM flyback- is now known as flyback
07:38 PM _unreal_: spoon milling has begone
07:39 PM _unreal_: got held up. my father called me. he and his girlfriend picked up a chair at the goodwill and I'm the only one who can transport stuff. cause I got roof racks
07:39 PM _unreal_: heh
07:40 PM _unreal_: interesting I'm running at 400mm/min and its an hour job
07:41 PM andypugh: Hmm, This was strangely watchable. Partly because the presenter is delightfully batty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9taaMg6YmU Like a lot of that sort of thing, I guess that experience gives you the confidence that it will get better as you work at it.
07:48 PM _unreal_: andypugh, she pains me
07:49 PM XXCoder: andypugh: pretty cool
07:49 PM andypugh: I can see that. I think she is fun, but can imagune that others would find her annoying.
07:50 PM XXCoder: into was annoying, I skipped it
07:50 PM _unreal_: andypugh, could you imagine being married to her
07:50 PM XXCoder: show persna dont nesscarily mean same as private
07:51 PM _unreal_: true. could be a total bitch
07:51 PM andypugh: No, I can’t image she would put up with me :-)
07:51 PM _unreal_: or an (((( :) omg...
07:51 PM XXCoder: wasnt thinking "bitch"
07:51 PM XXCoder: just more regular
07:52 PM _unreal_: found out why my cut path is an hour... carbide create does not have any options to tune NC creation.
07:52 PM _unreal_: so I have a lot of little marks making a rope. and its going back and forth rather then following the path.... sigh
07:52 PM _unreal_: 40k lines of NC as well
07:53 PM andypugh: Anyway, I wasn’t really talking about the presenter so much as how a very convincing prop emerges from a very unpromising initial pile of foam.
07:53 PM _unreal_: I'm putting this onto a bambo cooking spoon https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sykAFGCVxiSlMvAsu3eu47pUtPO9t10d
07:53 PM andypugh: _unreal_: F360 lets you tune “stay down” time.
07:54 PM XXCoder: andy yeah that weapon looks amazing
07:55 PM _unreal_: andypugh, I'm trying to learn fusion but it was clearly programmed by ADD victums
07:55 PM _unreal_: I should have made the rope thicker
07:55 PM _unreal_: looks ok but to small for what I'm milling really needs to be 2-3x the width
07:56 PM _unreal_: But what can I do
07:56 PM XXCoder: no good tuts on fusion?
07:56 PM andypugh: Start again, with a new sppon?
07:56 PM XXCoder: remember, there is no sppon
07:56 PM _unreal_: XXCoder, saddly no
07:57 PM _unreal_: all the youtube howto's are from 2018 and I guess the latest version theyve really mucked with all the menu locations so trying to follow anything is hard
07:57 PM XXCoder: once a while ui really do have to change to match new stuff
07:57 PM XXCoder: but mucking with it for looks is no no
07:58 PM _unreal_: and a number of multi step projects have been combind so. the person walks you through menus that dont exist any more
07:58 PM XXCoder: docs is a curse for open source :(
07:58 PM _unreal_: I have yet gotten to really sit down and read anything.....
07:59 PM _unreal_: been to tired. and its been high 90's for the past month
07:59 PM _unreal_: I get home from work. I have but to sit down and I fall asleep
07:59 PM _unreal_: annoying
08:01 PM _unreal_: OMG.... make it stop.... back and forth
08:01 PM andypugh: I taught myself Fusion by fiddling, but then I started by teaching myself AutoCAD by fiddling, then (Something I have forgotten the name of) then Inventor (as a full time job) and then Fusion. So now I just naturally think like a CAD package so would make a terrible tutor. Crikey, it’s probably been 30 years since I built my first CAD model.
08:01 PM _unreal_: andypugh, I'd like to turn a grape bunch STL I have into a 2.5d path
08:01 PM _unreal_: still have yet to figure it out
08:02 PM _unreal_: andypugh, same here
08:02 PM _unreal_: 30 years thing
08:02 PM _unreal_: I was in school using turtle making shapes
08:03 PM _unreal_: for the apple II if I recall
08:03 PM _unreal_: may have been something a little newer
08:04 PM andypugh: I am almost tempted to buy this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PINPIN-THIRD-GENERATION-EDUCATIONAL-ROBOT/264331143425?hash=item3d8b5d2901:g:igYAAOSwub1c--fx
08:04 PM andypugh: (It’s a turtle robot)
08:04 PM _unreal_: hum
08:05 PM andypugh: I am older than you, I was designing apparatus for my PhD ;-)
08:06 PM andypugh: _unreal_: How far have you got? STL into Fusion then to G-code shouldn’t be more than 20 mouse clicks.
08:07 PM andypugh: Where is the STL?
08:09 PM _unreal_: andypugh, https://www.osbornewood.com/7511.aspx?position=42&searchGUID=1173b343-2cbe-42c3-bcbd-db2f12478fc2&sortOption=Relevance
08:10 PM _unreal_: I want to take that rotate it 90degree counter clockwise. and scale it down to ... 1.75" across the long section.
08:13 PM andypugh: You rotate in the CAM
08:14 PM _unreal_: :p
08:15 PM _unreal_: The planetcnc controller I'm sing come to find out does stuff like that in hardware
08:15 PM _unreal_: its NOT very good at it
08:15 PM _unreal_: sing=using
08:16 PM _unreal_: it sends the offset ratio and the vector location and the controller does the adjustment math. so it sends up studder moving
08:16 PM _unreal_: has to do with the processor. as long as its not doing lots of little move that require sacalling math it runs smooth
08:19 PM XXCoder: LOL https://i5k2d6q9.stackpathcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/plan.jpg
08:31 PM sameee: lol
08:32 PM sameee: I saw a kid do a non-ironic 'naruto run' through my place of work earlier in the week
08:32 PM sameee: thought he might be practicing
08:32 PM XXCoder: tomorrow they attack
08:32 PM XXCoder: that is if it was real plan
08:32 PM _unreal_: skip to 7min 25 seconds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pCwXOJ6cDM
08:33 PM sameee: Cool, but low effort - I like it
08:35 PM sameee: Does anyone have any nice inspiration builds for DIY cncs within the reach of a hobbiest?
08:35 PM XXCoder: well could build wood cnc thats strong enough to cut alum, then make better machine with it
08:37 PM andypugh: sameee: Sorry to answer with a question, but what do you mean by “CNC”?
08:37 PM sameee: That's kind of a cool idea - homofaciens on Youtube built one out of a lot of angle iron but that looked pretty extreme
08:37 PM sameee: ah, computer controlled mill
08:37 PM Tom_L: what size?
08:37 PM sameee: or router, really
08:37 PM Tom_L: so tabletop
08:37 PM sameee: big enough to work on something the size of a piece of A4
08:38 PM andypugh: I think of CNC as an adjective, so it’s a CNC mill, a CNC lathe, a CNC wire EDM. But increasingly we see “A CNC” and that typically means “20x20 extrusion loosely bolted to some stepper motors”
08:38 PM XXCoder: heh some people do think that
08:38 PM sameee: Yes, I can see how my sloppy vernacular would be cause for concern
08:38 PM XXCoder: I dont call 3d printers cnc though techinically they are
08:39 PM andypugh: And, to be honest, there is no point building the latter, you can buy the whole thing cheaper than the parts from eBay
08:39 PM Tom_L: sameee, pick one of these https://pixabay.com/images/search/wood%20carving/
08:40 PM skunkworks: I prefer NC.. http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/oldkandt.JPG
08:40 PM Tom_L: old iron sam
08:40 PM sameee: I like the coat.
08:40 PM skunkworks: I wear it whenever I run it.. ;)
08:40 PM XXCoder: imange that thing is granddaddy of cnc machines
08:41 PM andypugh: Gosh, skunkworks, woulsn’t it be cool to own that CNC in the picture form 1965 and convert it to LinuxCNC?
08:41 PM andypugh: sameee: For a Mill or a lathe I would start with a mill or a lathe and convert.
08:41 PM skunkworks: andypugh: Maybe! I wouldn't know... ;)
08:42 PM andypugh: For a router there is something to be said for a self-build. But maybe not at the sheet-of-A4 scale
08:44 PM skunkworks: I think it was 69'
08:45 PM andypugh: sameee: What’s your budget?
08:45 PM sameee: about three fiddy
08:45 PM sameee: All in, I suppose I wouldn't want to spend much more than 2000USD
08:46 PM _unreal_: sameee, you will likely find LONGER in X or Y to be more useful
08:47 PM _unreal_: rather then 8.5x11
08:47 PM sameee: yeah, I suppose I need to do a bit more research on the parts available in terms of rails etc
08:49 PM XXCoder: "unpickable". gets picked in 15 seconds. https://youtu.be/F_38TFES88I
08:49 PM _unreal_: sameee, there are many many options
08:50 PM _unreal_: sameee, your first step is to identify WHAT you want to do with said machine how it will work. WHAT materials do you plan to work with.
08:50 PM _unreal_: then go from there
08:52 PM _unreal_: sameee, so tell me WHAT are you plans for a cnc machine
08:53 PM andypugh: OK, so $2000 puts you not in this class of machine: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-CNC-ROUTER-ENGRAVER-ENGRAVING-CUTTER-3-AXIS-3040T-DRILLING-DC-300W-ARTS/273907726294?hash=item3fc62c37d6:g:3akAAOSwvf1dFat-
08:54 PM sameee: https://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-industry/industrial/manufacturing-metalwork/other/listing-2230897852.htm
08:54 PM _unreal_: didnt even notice he gave a doller amount
08:54 PM andypugh: samee Maybe you are looking at one of the epocy-granite designs?
08:55 PM andypugh: But you might be better buying something like G540 from Grizzly and converting to CNC.
08:55 PM _unreal_: sameee, if your willing to spend that much cash... I'd suggest ohh a $1k machine purchased and put the other 1k into setup and supporting hardware
08:56 PM sameee: I found this one, which looks quite capable but a little out of my budget range and probably a bit overkill
08:56 PM sameee: https://www.trademe.co.nz/business-farming-industry/industrial/manufacturing-metalwork/other/listing-2237398279.htm
08:56 PM _unreal_: if your willing to spend that much money. BILDILNG is not realistic
08:57 PM _unreal_: sameee, you have not answered my main question yet...
08:57 PM _unreal_: What do you want to do with what ever mill you end up with or build. What is your use for it.
08:57 PM sameee: Ah yes, sorry. Mostly plastics and waxes
08:57 PM sameee: perhaps some timber
08:57 PM _unreal_: what are you planning to BUILD
08:58 PM _unreal_: make
08:58 PM _unreal_: mill. materials to mill tells me very little
08:58 PM sameee: knife handles, and jewellery moulds
08:58 PM _unreal_: are you doing to mill out voodoo dolls, wooden dominos
08:58 PM _unreal_: ok then you dont need a big machine at all
08:59 PM _unreal_: even swards, the handle parts are TINY
08:59 PM _unreal_: What is your work area for this machine to live in how much space does it have
08:59 PM _unreal_: if your home/workshop..
08:59 PM _unreal_: Next are you planning on milling aluminum
09:00 PM sameee: I have a big workshop, but that Rowland in form factor looks okay. Rather it not take up the whole shed - aluminium could be fun but i understand that to be another step further
09:00 PM _unreal_: There are materils used in knife handles that are very hard.... and would compare to the loads and stresses that aluminum can infickt
09:00 PM _unreal_: sameee, kind of
09:01 PM _unreal_: sameee, you will likely enjoy a mill that is 20x40" or something in that range
09:01 PM sameee: Mhmm, I was thinking that the load bearing skeleton of my knife designs would be something different to the handles. Kind of like the traditional swiss army knife
09:02 PM _unreal_: with at least a 3" plunge maybe 6" plunge
09:02 PM _unreal_: something in that range +/- would likely be a good starting place especially if this is a first cnc
09:03 PM _unreal_: Your biggest challange is learning the setup and learning the software. Second is learning how to translate a design into a finished design. and know if its to small or just right etc....
09:04 PM _unreal_: is this going to be your first cnc?
09:04 PM sameee: Thanks, that's really good advice. Better to pick the right tool for the job, then the right job for the tool in a sense. I will keep refining my ideas here
09:05 PM sameee: I have a 3D printer at work - an Ultimaker 2+
09:05 PM sameee: first subtractive machine
09:05 PM _unreal_: do you use fusion360
09:05 PM sameee: yep, I have used that for making designs for 3D printing
09:06 PM _unreal_: you can use that for making NC paths as well or so I'm told. I have yet to make anything use full with fusion. IMO poorly workflow deigned and they keep changing the menues around. so no help files/videos are really useful
09:07 PM _unreal_: sameee, picking a cnc machine you need to look into a few aspects
09:08 PM _unreal_: A: is the frame strong enough to do what your planning with out flexing/defelecting and looking accuracy.
09:08 PM _unreal_: looking=loosing
09:08 PM andypugh: _unreal_: I just recorded a vide for you, but it’s going to take a while to upload
09:08 PM _unreal_: B: are the motors strong enough to push the mill with out loosing steps
09:09 PM _unreal_: ? cool
09:09 PM _unreal_: push the mill with out loosing steps at a respectiable feed rate.
09:09 PM andypugh: Steps? How quaint!
09:10 PM _unreal_: C: is the machine of useful size for what you plan and is the spindle capable of what you need and designed for many hours of use.
09:11 PM _unreal_: sameee, your going to want dust extraction for sure setup to the cnc. you may want ot build an enclosure to help tamp down noise polution.
09:11 PM _unreal_: and contain particals
09:16 PM andypugh: sameee: You are in NZ? Any idea why there is no eBay in NZ?
09:16 PM sameee: local competitor pretty well shut them out - in the early days there was a local ebay
09:17 PM sameee: also market is quite small, with only a very small manufacturing industry base (and shrinking)
09:17 PM andypugh: I should believe that is cool, but I am not sure
09:18 PM sameee: www.trademe.co.nz is the local auction site
09:19 PM andypugh: Hang on, you were looking at a Roland, and someone on here was looking to sell a Roland…
09:19 PM sameee: are they any good?
09:20 PM sameee: looks like the software is pretty old now
09:20 PM andypugh: Yes, you would probably convert to LinuxCNC
09:20 PM sameee: the price seems interesting at 1100
09:21 PM XXCoder: my work have fadal 88 for sale for couple years now
09:21 PM XXCoder: too bad I dont have room, or I'd have offered 25% of price they are asking lol
09:22 PM XXCoder: $2000 and nobody wants it.
09:22 PM andypugh: sameee: It was miss0r with the Roland. But he is in Denmark so is probably asleep by now. And shipping is abviously a concern.
09:23 PM sameee: Yeah, it doesn't get much further away than Denmark
09:25 PM sameee: thanks for the tip though, I will have a chat to him about it - perhaps he has some tips for me
09:27 PM _unreal_: speaking of bed I'm thinking about going there too
09:29 PM sameee: goodnite
09:29 PM jym: It cost $3M USD to "fill up" cargo ships
09:30 PM Tom_L: do they wash the windows and check the oil for that?
09:30 PM XXCoder: and check tires pressure?
09:35 PM andypugh: _unreal_: Can you stay long enough for me to give you a URL?
09:36 PM andypugh: https://youtu.be/pOdfgsZGQoE
09:37 PM XXCoder: video isnt playing. weird
09:37 PM andypugh: It’s not processed yet
09:37 PM XXCoder: oh
09:37 PM andypugh: 30 seconds to go
09:38 PM andypugh: But he said that he was going, and I recorded it specifically for him
09:40 PM XXCoder: yay it plays
09:40 PM andypugh: I think that quality will improve when it has been processed more
09:41 PM jym: Tom_L: I asked that too
09:41 PM jym: They use enough propane to last an average family 40 years
09:41 PM jym: primarily for refrigeration