#linuxcnc Logs
Jun 11 2019
#linuxcnc Calendar
02:44 AM Loetmichel: *GNAAAHHH* Just have a HP "tempest proofed" laserjet M452 on my desk as a customer return... Shows error 51.23 when attemting to print. Left side panel (where all the now shielded electronics are) popped off: prints like a charm. Put the cover back on: Error 51.23... and i cant for the life of me not see where the panel shorts out. Slightly hard to see whats going on if the error only appears
02:49 AM Loetmichel: with cover on. And i cant even blame the coworker, that Printer i did modify myself. FML...
02:50 AM Loetmichel: sensille: shielded againts "air gap" eavesdropping
02:51 AM Loetmichel: google SDIP-27 level A
02:52 AM sensille: s/tempest/tamper?
02:54 AM Loetmichel: nope, this kind of attack is called "tempest" or "van eck phreaking"
02:55 AM sensille: ah, thanks for educating me :)
04:16 AM XXCoder: ugh worked while sick
04:16 AM XXCoder: it sucks
04:54 AM Tom_L: morning
05:16 AM jthornton: morning
05:17 AM XXCoder: morning
06:16 AM jthornton: feels real nice outside this morning 56°F and 84% humidity
06:17 AM XXCoder: man 84% humidity
06:17 AM XXCoder: wau too much for me lol
06:18 AM jthornton: better than the usual 100% in the morning
06:25 AM jthornton: at least my first job is outside this morning
06:27 AM XXCoder: cool :)
06:27 AM XXCoder: here has inverse of normal temp-humdidity ratio
06:27 AM XXCoder: colder tend to be dryer
06:28 AM XXCoder: poor wood stuff maker people lol
06:28 AM jthornton: yea the noaa site says the west is having excessive heat
06:29 AM XXCoder: here will have lots fires soon
06:29 AM XXCoder: some areas already in fiee
06:35 AM abrock: I have LCNC 2.7.8 and apt tells me I could upgrade to 2.7.14, is that considered safe?
06:43 AM jthornton: yes, 2.7 is very stable
06:43 AM jthornton: and upgrading gets only bug fixes
06:44 AM Loetmichel: *gnhihi* aaand the next 30eur shopvac died... Luckily i bought two last time one died on me. Seems they are not meant to run 24/7 on a CNC router... anyways, one year for 30 eur isnt THAT bad... and if i find the brushes they put in the original package i may even fix it...
06:51 AM Loetmichel: Funny: i was in the workshop, milling some sheet alu... *sniffle* opne door to the shop floor:" Hey, coworker, could i borrow your nose for a moment?" coworker comes... $me:" hey, does that smell like ozone here?" Him: "yes. Probably the the shopvac on the way out"... Shopvac: PFIIIIIIIIIiiiiuuuuu... off... .-)
07:36 AM abrock: I need some packages (cmake, gcc) on my linuxcnc machine but all the "wheezy" lines in the sources.list give error 404. I changed them to "stretch" but now apt-get wants to install/upgrade a ton of packages: http://paste.debian.net/1087410/
07:41 AM abrock: is it safe to upgrade the OS like that?
07:46 AM JT-Shop: no
07:47 AM JT-Shop: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/29-forum-announcements/36691-fixing-wheezy-repositories
09:16 AM perry_j1987: morning
09:30 AM abrock: JT-Shop: thank you.
09:31 AM abrock: I realized that I have installed a 32bit OS for no sane reason and I'll try linuxcnc-stretch-uspace-amd64.iso
09:33 AM JT-Shop: that would be a good choice
09:37 AM perry_j1987: parallel breakout board is arriving today
09:37 AM perry_j1987: going to ditch that mach3controller card that the 6040 came with
09:38 AM JT-Shop: you will be much happier when your done
09:43 AM perry_j1987: there were some stupid things like autolevel probing not working through the original card
09:43 AM perry_j1987: which would be nice to have for doing pcbs
09:44 AM perry_j1987: now I have this wireless pendant that i'd like to use still
09:45 AM perry_j1987: https://www.ebay.com/itm/6-Axis-XHC-usb-wireless-Mach3-Remote-MPG-CNC-pendant-USB-handwheel-WHB04B-6-/172385482768 i beleive this is the one
09:46 AM Loetmichel: hmpf... just noticed that my new cheap bending brake has a "pressure beam" thats a banana in the wrong direction... 1mm hollow in the middle. on the ends it would actually have been fine... i think thats what you get for 100 eur... http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17373&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 :-(
10:42 AM Deejay: hi
10:49 AM jym: Hi Deejay
11:11 AM CaptHindsight: surprisingly low prices for many motion control devices http://www.controlresourcesinc.com/store/
11:16 AM Tom_L: so on a 5A type C breaker does that mean it will spike to 25-50A before breaking?
11:16 AM CaptHindsight: likely the same co http://www.automation4less.com/store/hiwinlegacy.asp
11:17 AM Tom_L: https://www.c3controls.com/blog/understanding-trip-curves/
11:17 AM jym: Tom_L: Got datasheet for the breaker?
11:19 AM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: it's about allowable duration of spikes
11:19 AM DaViruz: according to that graph, if you subject it to 25A it will trip after 2 seconds
11:19 AM DaViruz: för the C type
11:19 AM DaViruz: or rather 0.02-2 seconds
11:20 AM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: you spec the breaker based on the types of loads
11:20 AM Tom_L: so is that more comparable to a slow blow fuse?
11:20 AM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: yes, and you get to chosse how slow based on the spike duration
11:20 AM jym: It looks like it allows a 5 to 10x inrush current, then trips
11:21 AM CaptHindsight: jym: yes, over time
11:21 AM jym: CaptHindsight: Yeah, like a 2s inrush
11:21 AM Tom_L: that seems like quite a bit
11:22 AM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: but it depends on time
11:22 AM Tom_L: https://library.e.abb.com/public/114371fcc8e0456096db42d614bead67/2CDC400002D0201_view.pdf
11:23 AM CaptHindsight: if you choose a B curve for resistive circuits then it will trip faster when subject to higher currents
11:23 AM CaptHindsight: D cure will take longer for the same high current
11:24 AM Tom_L: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2335082.pdf
11:24 AM CaptHindsight: highly inductive or capacitive loads look like dead shorts when they start
11:24 AM Tom_L: not the same one...
11:25 AM CaptHindsight: so a B curve breaker would trip every time the loads start
11:25 AM CaptHindsight: so you choose one with a longer delay
11:26 AM CaptHindsight: but if your cicuits are mainly resistive you'll want to protect them with a fast tripping breaker
11:26 AM Tom_L: it's purely inductive
11:26 AM CaptHindsight: any spikes are not expected
11:26 AM CaptHindsight: so likely a short or overload
11:27 AM Tom_L: i've been getting by with a 5A fast blow fuse and it hardly ever trips unless i do something stupid
11:27 AM jym: Tom_L: How ofteb is that ;)
11:27 AM Tom_L: i don't buy fuses in gross
11:28 AM CaptHindsight: Tom_L: this for a motor?
11:28 AM Tom_L: my spindle motor yes
11:28 AM Tom_L: it happened more when i was messin with fwd/rev which makes sense
11:28 AM Tom_L: but i'm not using rev now since the motor isn't big enough to do rigid tapping
11:29 AM CaptHindsight: small motor and low inductance so a C is likely fine
11:29 AM Tom_L: .6hp iirc
11:29 AM Tom_L: 90vdc
11:30 AM CaptHindsight: but your motor is behind a controller
11:30 AM Tom_L: right
11:30 AM Tom_L: and the fuse is ahead of it i think
11:30 AM CaptHindsight: where will this breaker be? between motor and controller? between power and controller?
11:30 AM Tom_L: power and controller
11:31 AM Tom_L: line voltage
11:31 AM Tom_L: 120vac
11:31 AM CaptHindsight: ok, the next question is what type of controller is this?
11:31 AM Tom_L: the original sherline
11:31 AM CaptHindsight: the controller is possibly a switching type supply
11:31 AM CaptHindsight: not familiar
11:32 AM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/PDF/
11:32 AM Tom_L: i think it's the KBIC
11:32 AM gregcnc: probably
11:34 AM CaptHindsight: C curve breaker
11:34 AM Tom_L: i started with a 2 or 3A fastblow fuse (can't remember which) but they were marginal when cutting a decent load
11:35 AM Tom_L: i haven't blown a fuse in a while but the other day i hit a hard spot in some material and it bitched about that
11:36 AM gregcnc: did it stall or blow the fuse?
11:36 AM CaptHindsight: heh, i once crashed a 6" facemill into aluminum with a 10HP spindle
11:36 AM Tom_L: blew the fuse
11:37 AM CaptHindsight: quit when you are tired
11:37 AM Tom_L: :)
11:37 AM Tom_L: i'll likely leave the fuse holder as is, just curious about breakers
11:37 AM CaptHindsight: tripped the 60A that supplied the machine
11:42 AM Tom_L: i should add and "if spindle speed ~0 F=0 " somehow to the config
11:43 AM Tom_L: wouldn't do well with reversing operations but i'm not doing any now
11:45 AM Tom_L: that and jogging with the spindle off
11:51 AM gregcnc: I suspect many machines use the error out signal from the drive vs. letting the control decide when something is wrong.
12:06 PM CaptHindsight: ERROR OUT from his drive is smoke signals or bright flash from fuse :)
12:07 PM Tom_L: mmm maybe a light sensor
12:07 PM gregcnc: just something to check there is voltage after the fuse
12:08 PM CaptHindsight: The armature fuse provides overload protection for the motor and control. Choose the proper size armature fuse
12:08 PM CaptHindsight: and AC line fuse (see fuse chart table 4, p. 5) by multiplying the maximum DC motor amps by 1.7. Armature and AC line fuse
12:08 PM CaptHindsight: kits are available from your distributor. On domestic 230 Volt AC lines, separate branch circuit protection for each line must
12:08 PM CaptHindsight: be used. All fuses should be normal blow ceramic 3AG or MDA or equivalent.
12:08 PM gregcnc: normally open relay
12:09 PM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight: i had ATX PSUs where the error message "fuse blown" was audible 3 rooms away
12:09 PM Loetmichel: never found ANY part of the soldered in glass fuses but fine dust :-)
12:13 PM CaptHindsight: good thing it didn't take copper off the PCB as well
12:25 PM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5012&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- did leave some stains though ;)
02:11 PM CaptHindsight: which end of the ballscrew is best driven when one end is fixed and one end side supported?
02:15 PM gloops: side supported?
02:15 PM CaptHindsight: side supported = simple
02:16 PM gloops: well, if the connection to the motor is rigid, you might theorise that the motor bearings will act to stabilise the simple end
02:17 PM CaptHindsight: the other end of the screw is fixed so...
02:17 PM gloops: as this is rarely the case, i dount it makes any difference which end is driven
02:17 PM CaptHindsight: axial play is controlled by the fixed end
02:18 PM CaptHindsight: play/lash
02:18 PM gloops: that can be adjusted
02:19 PM CaptHindsight: the fixed end is preloaded so there is no play
02:20 PM gloops: but the screw can still wobble/resonate with a single bearing one end
02:20 PM gloops: adding the motor to that end with a rigid connection might help
02:23 PM gregcnc: I don't think I've ever seen a motor on the end opposite the thrust bearing
02:24 PM gloops: no, but that was too simple and uncreative an answer
02:24 PM gregcnc: but usually the thrust bearing end is also built to support all the loads and the motor/pulley loads
02:25 PM gloops: the obvious solution - dont use a simple fitting
02:26 PM gregcnc: gloops do as you please
02:26 PM gloops: it doesnt make any difference re endfloat or axial movement, double support both ends stiffens the beam
02:28 PM gloops: that can reduce resonance a lot
02:29 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: yes traditionallt the motor is on the fixed end of a fixed with simple
02:29 PM CaptHindsight: traditionally
02:30 PM CaptHindsight: are there any tradeoffs to driving a fixed-simple from the simple end?
02:31 PM CaptHindsight: seems to be none unless the screw is stretching
02:32 PM gloops: high risk of looking very amateur in youtube vids - comments like 'you got the motors on the wrong end!'
02:33 PM CaptHindsight: from stupid people that seem to think there is a difference?
02:33 PM CaptHindsight: tradition vs science
02:33 PM gregcnc: I think minor overall
02:45 PM CaptHindsight: I have Thomson, Nook, Rockford etc all chiming in
02:45 PM gloops: any concensus?
02:45 PM CaptHindsight: seems to just be tradition
02:46 PM CaptHindsight: or in the case of Rockford, they don't machine screws the other way
02:47 PM gloops: http://www.nookindustries.com/EngineeringCalculator/MetricCriticalSpeed
02:49 PM gloops: 20mm diameter 1000mm length, critical speed B = 2418 C = 3555....30%ish improvement for 1 bearing
02:50 PM CaptHindsight: fixed vs simple vs fixed fixed vs simple simple, simple fixed etc is well understood
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.machinedesign.com/linear-motion/importance-ballscrew-end-fixity
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.linearmotiontips.com/choose-end-fixity-conditions-screw-applications/
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: ^^ were probably my often posed answer to fixity questions
02:52 PM CaptHindsight: posed/posted
03:07 PM Deejay: gn8
03:15 PM CaptHindsight: NSK "nope, just odd"
03:44 PM gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Selson-Engineering-Lathe/192943850589?
03:44 PM gloops: reserve...
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: deep sea lathe?
03:45 PM gloops: would hold a small boat steady
03:49 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-IRON-PARTS-TO-A-LATE-18TH-CENTURY-LATHE-FAIR-COND/283507204783
03:49 PM CaptHindsight: 18th century??
03:52 PM XXCoder: lathe is over 5000 years old
03:52 PM XXCoder: though that specific parts being from 18th? dunno
03:53 PM perry_j1987: ok im a bit stumpped
03:53 PM perry_j1987: swapping out this old mach3 motion card mkx-iv to a parallel breakout board
03:54 PM perry_j1987: I have a nowforever d100s2r2b vfd
03:54 PM perry_j1987: the old card had wires labeled ACM,AVI,10V-IN
03:56 PM perry_j1987: the vfd has com,AIN1,12v
03:58 PM gloops: 18th century maybe, for a lathe, is he really sure?
03:59 PM jym: Molten salt explosion (it's interesting in the fact that he gets into the science behind it)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDRWQUUUCF0
04:01 PM gloops: seems to come up a lot on google perry_j1987
04:01 PM perry_j1987: im confused if the 12v is input or output heh
04:02 PM gloops: ok..you need a 10v in for the breakout board?
04:03 PM XXCoder: makes cool sphereic explosion
04:03 PM jym: XXCoder: Keep watching, the 25000 fps shots are very cool
04:05 PM XXCoder: yea
04:05 PM gloops: 10v to the board to power the pwm
04:05 PM jym: XXCoder: He speaks about soem effect that I can't make it, is it in the cc ?
04:05 PM gloops: you can get that from a pc power pack
04:06 PM perry_j1987: i have this http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/616/776/001/1001776616_258.jpg?size=133901&height=537&width=857&hash=5317a193b7256780965359f8172b1f5a
04:06 PM jym: XXCoder: btw, I just came across that looking for a DIY electric water cannon, and can't find a good one
04:06 PM XXCoder: should be yeah was kinda in hurrt so fast forwarded a little
04:06 PM XXCoder: going now later
04:07 PM gloops: yeah thats the standard mach3 board, well a slightly posh version
04:07 PM gloops: you need to put 10v in to power up the pwm and relays
04:07 PM perry_j1987: where
04:09 PM gloops: no wait, 12-24v in, thats right
04:09 PM perry_j1987: appears it has an output for 0-10 onboard
04:10 PM gloops: yes
04:10 PM gloops: https://i0.wp.com/www.ijohnsen.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/bob-mj57.png
04:10 PM gloops: thats the basic one
04:12 PM gloops: on the diagram you gave 'power input' connections appear to be bottom right
04:14 PM perry_j1987: aye i have it all wired up
04:14 PM perry_j1987: the main confusion was the old board had 3 wires hooked up
04:14 PM perry_j1987: so it was doing some sort of loop where the vfd would output 12v and it'd use that to provide a 0-10v for the speed on the old card?
05:25 PM perry_j1987: hows everybody doing
05:37 PM andypugh: Confusedly
05:46 PM skunkworks: http://electronicsam.com/images/greenmachine/IMG_20190610_142016.jpg
05:46 PM skunkworks: http://electronicsam.com/images/greenmachine/IMG_20190610_141959.jpg
05:47 PM perry_j1987: looks like fun
05:57 PM jthornton: look at all the levers
05:57 PM skunkworks: I know! right?
05:58 PM jthornton: I saw a machine on a visit to Taiwan that was all cam and lever driven, must have had a couple hundred levers and cams
06:02 PM pcw_mesa: Also ballscrew thermal expansion is scaled by the distance to the fixed end
06:03 PM pcw_mesa: skunkworks: what was the Intel Ethernet chip you had troubles with? (wondering if a forum issue is the same thing)
06:05 PM pcw_mesa: ( first message is because I didn't notice I was not at the bottom of the page, sorry )
06:06 PM CaptHindsight: pcw_mesa: ball screw driven end comment?
06:06 PM pcw_mesa: Yeah
06:08 PM skunkworks: pcw_mesa: umm... I don't remember...
06:08 PM pcw_mesa: well that makes two of us...
06:09 PM skunkworks: I remember a laptop that didn't play well with ethernet.. I would have to look.
06:10 PM skunkworks: I remember buying a pc card ethernet to fix it...
06:15 PM andypugh: That’s not a drill… _This_ is a drill: http://www.lathes.co.uk/archdale/img20.jpg
06:16 PM jym: pcw_mesa: an intel chipset snafu?
06:18 PM jym: pcw_mesa: Intel e1000e chipset ??? I think that was a driver issue more than a hardware one
06:19 PM pcw_mesa: Yeah, I think it was dropping the link randomly
06:19 PM jym: pcw_mesa: https://serverfault.com/questions/193114/linux-e1000e-intel-networking-driver-problems-galore-where-do-i-start
06:23 PM jym: Heh, the scrollback of this conversation and the mention fo LAPTOP ethernet cards made me think WAY WAY WAY back to the days of laptop paraport ehternet cards.... shivers
06:25 PM CaptHindsight: Ethernet hah, we could only dream of faster serial https://s.hswstatic.com/gif/1st-portable-computer-1.jpg
06:26 PM jym: CaptHindsight: Hey, it beat tokenring, mkay
06:28 PM CaptHindsight: why would you want this in your pocket? https://s.hswstatic.com/gif/1st-portable-computer-1.jpg
06:28 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
06:28 PM sync: oh wow, that is a stout boye andypugh
06:28 PM cradek: token ring would work great for communicating with drives. it has constant latency and constant throughput regardless of load.
06:28 PM sync: yes, but it is 2019
06:28 PM jym: CaptHindsight: And if you are going back to luggables... http://tanrunomad.com/wp-content/uploads/bondwell.JPG
06:30 PM jym: CaptHindsight: CP/M
06:30 PM CaptHindsight: http://tanrunomad.com/wp-content/uploads/bondwell.JPG I want to turn one of these into a smartphone
06:31 PM jym: CaptHindsight: I have text to speech for it... somewhere =)
06:31 PM andypugh: I used an IBM Portable PC for a while. I was glad to have it at the time (This was at work at a University…) as it was a lot better than no PC.
06:31 PM jym: and wordstar, calcstar,
06:32 PM andypugh: And I used to have a Mac Portable, but that was much later when it was something ot a museum piece already.
06:32 PM CaptHindsight: 128K memory installed
06:32 PM andypugh: I think the Osborne 1 has to be the coolest.
06:32 PM CaptHindsight: the bits were so big you could practically see them
06:32 PM jym: cradek still has all us beat with his altair =)
06:32 PM jym: CaptHindsight: lol
06:34 PM CaptHindsight: another project I'm circling back to is a render farm in a backpack
06:34 PM jym: andypugh: B&W screen? all one single unit?
06:34 PM jym: CaptHindsight: Using all your spare 8086 uP's ?
06:35 PM andypugh: jym: Google
06:35 PM CaptHindsight: 16-32 32-core cpus and several GPU's in backpack with enough battery to give you a backache
06:36 PM jym: CaptHindsight: ...or one smartphone
06:37 PM CaptHindsight: portable cluster computer
06:37 PM jym: 3 smartphones with NFC communications
06:51 PM SpeedEvil is now known as Guest12070
06:53 PM BitEvil is now known as SpeedEvil
07:16 PM perry_j1987: got movement on the 6040 with the new parallel card
07:17 PM flyback: what caerd did you use
07:17 PM flyback: im curious to know what pci and pci-e cards work as well as classic lpt ports
07:19 PM jym: cool
07:21 PM perry_j1987: its one of these https://amzn.to/31tzUu2
07:22 PM perry_j1987: i also threw in https://amzn.to/2MI5y3P
07:22 PM perry_j1987: now trying to get this old elo touch touchscreen serial monitor working in linux
07:42 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.mcmaster.com/#acme-threaded-rods/=2e08e9fa900f48f382daa763817ebcbejwsi8m8r possibly the worlds most over priced screw end supports
07:43 PM jym: CaptHindsight: Im sure you can find higher ones
07:44 PM CaptHindsight: 24kt gold plate
07:45 PM CaptHindsight: Oracle approved
07:45 PM jym: CaptHindsight: $2000 3d printed
07:45 PM jym: titanium
07:45 PM CaptHindsight: pixie dust deposition
07:45 PM jym: for all those gram weinnes that want as light weight as possible
07:46 PM CaptHindsight: iBearings
07:46 PM jym: lol
07:46 PM CaptHindsight: where the bearings roll you!
07:46 PM jym: and can be uploaded to iCloud
07:48 PM CaptHindsight: I propose that we drop the p from pneumatic
07:48 PM CaptHindsight: newmatic
07:49 PM jym: iMatic ?
07:53 PM flyback: CaptCANUCK
07:53 PM flyback: did you try realterm to debug it
07:54 PM flyback: I know realterm is windows only but does run in ros and the 3.x branch might run in winee
07:54 PM flyback: realterm owns your "canuck"
07:54 PM * flyback dropkicks the nearest channel cnd
07:54 PM CaptHindsight: I'm off
07:55 PM CaptHindsight: don't be a mother canucker
08:10 PM flyback: hehe
08:11 PM Tom_L: yeah what he said!
09:30 PM perry_j1987: hows everybody doing
09:33 PM infornography: outstanding
09:34 PM Tom_L: any better and i'd question the legality of it
09:36 PM perry_j1987: getting real close to having this touchscreen working in linux heh
09:37 PM perry_j1987: spent the day converting this controller box from that mkx-iv mach3 usb card to a parallel port card and setting linuxcnc up on the computer
09:37 PM infornography: cool
09:38 PM Tom_L: welcome aboard
09:58 PM perry_j1987: got it working its just hte calibration program is erroring out now heh
09:58 PM perry_j1987: can almost point hte mouse where i want it to be eh
10:12 PM perry_j1987: woo success
10:21 PM perry_j1987: so stepconf is not letting me configure the 4th axis only xyz
10:22 PM perry_j1987: oh pft
10:22 PM perry_j1987: didnt see the dropdown for xyza