#linuxcnc Logs
May 24 2019
#linuxcnc Calendar
02:23 AM Loetmichel: morning
05:10 AM Tom_L: morning
05:10 AM XXCoder: hey
05:10 AM Tom_L: more rain this morning
05:47 AM jthornton: morning
05:47 AM XXCoder: yo
05:50 AM jthornton: nice here but very humid at the moment
05:50 AM XXCoder: its nice here atm
05:50 AM XXCoder: tomorrow and next day rain
05:50 AM XXCoder: keeping my room nice and mostly dry :D
07:17 AM jthornton: wow I have 2.34GB of extra data to burn this month
07:17 AM XXCoder: fancy
07:19 AM Loetmichel: hmm, any BMW freaks here? have an exhaust leak on my 525i E39... and just noticed that the sound changes when you press and release the accelerator... is it possible that there is a valve involved in that leak? cant find any "blowing exhaust fumes" on the engine... -> https://youtu.be/AXlWpKNyICM
07:26 AM methods_: maybe musk will get his satellite internet up for you soon jthornton
07:29 AM jthornton: musk???
07:30 AM XXCoder: owner of telsa
07:30 AM jthornton: ah
07:30 AM XXCoder: i think
08:07 AM methods_: yeah spacex guy
08:07 AM methods_: the one that just launched all those internet satellites yesterday
08:07 AM SpeedEvil: ~1/6th of a minimal service constellation IIRC
08:12 AM x2s: I'm not sure that they will be in the final network. They don't have the space-to-space interlink hardware on board. Also some of them will be used for deorbiting tests and such things
08:13 AM JT-Shop: that's what I need is good sat internet with no limits
08:14 AM SpeedEvil: Yeah - minimal service constellation would perhaps be initial ground-bounce.
08:14 AM SpeedEvil: Which doesn't really add much with a ~20ms delay to the satellites.
08:14 AM SpeedEvil: If they don't upgrade to ones with interlink fast.
08:14 AM SpeedEvil: these ones are absolutely fine for demonstrating to VCs that they work.
08:15 AM SpeedEvil: And crashing your cost of money.
08:16 AM SpeedEvil: https://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=47120.0;attach=1561696;image - I love the sharpied on numbers on the reused thruster packs.
08:35 AM x2s: and it's all rusty and messy :D
09:43 AM perry_j1987: is there a magic powder or spray i can put on these endmills to keep them from breaking
09:44 AM gregcnc: buy the bulk can of experience
09:44 AM perry_j1987: i tried the stores are fresh out
09:44 AM perry_j1987: :P
09:45 AM perry_j1987: maybe if i encase this mill in epoxy granite that'd help
09:45 AM gregcnc: cutting parameters?
09:57 AM Loetmichel: ouch. Just found a picture of me from 30 years ago on a friends website... http://landscaper.de/db_Neu-521.jpg (in the front, the one with the ponytail) MAAN i am getting old... recent pic: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17124
10:02 AM methods_: so secksay
10:08 AM SpeedEvil: perry_j1987: I assume you've tried soluble cutting oil spray?
10:20 AM perry_j1987: Loetmichel your friend's making the face he knew you'd make when you seen that pic 30 years later heh
10:21 AM perry_j1987: SpeedEvil no I havnt
10:24 AM Deejay: hi
10:57 AM Loetmichel: perry_j1987: indeed ;)
10:57 AM perry_j1987: :)
11:45 AM elmo40: ugh... why can't the mode be changed in this channel? when freenode drops and i lose connection it auto restarts with my backup nick. then, i cant simply change my nick i have to part this room, change nick and rejoin.
11:45 AM elmo40: "Cannot change nickname while banned/quieted on channel"
11:46 AM elmo40: Loetmichel, amazing what time does to us all. I saw a photo from ~22 years ago and looked at myself in the mirror... not pretty! :-P
12:11 PM Deejay: elmo40, I think because of spam / bot issues some time ago
12:35 PM Tom_L: elmo40 if you link your nicks you won't have that issue
12:56 PM FinboySlick: Loetmichel: Well, you kept the ponytail and the leather jacket :)
12:56 PM FinboySlick: Loetmichel: No wait? When did you lose the ponytail?
12:56 PM FinboySlick: Had you been fooling us with old pictures all this time?
12:56 PM elmo40: Tom_L, link nicks?
01:09 PM Tom_L: yes, i'm able to do it with the irc client
01:11 PM Tom_L: link might do it
01:14 PM Tom_L: with hexchat you can have 3 nicks tied to your registered user name
01:14 PM Tom_L: then if the first one hasn't released on a timeout etc it will roll to the next one and still be registered
01:15 PM Tom_L: i'm not sure how other clients work
01:44 PM net|: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2595892 would something like this work good for getting gold out of black sand ?
01:44 PM net|: maybe minaturised and a system of splitters
01:47 PM gloops: cant say its something i have experience of
01:47 PM gloops: i suppose if the gold particles are heavier than the sand particles yes
01:48 PM FinboySlick: net|: I don't think it would have much of an incidence. Gold separation is more about gravity than flow.
02:01 PM FinboySlick: net|: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCiIUjPF060 might be a fun experiment for separation though.
02:01 PM FinboySlick: Be sure to make a video if you try, I'd love to see if it works.
02:22 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/N3BBF1u.png
02:24 PM net|: if it were on its side gravity could do its work too
02:30 PM roycroft: i think one can say that gold extraction is mostly about momentum, and both flow and gravity affect that
02:33 PM elmo40: Tom_L, i use hexchat.
02:33 PM elmo40: where do i find this feature?
03:02 PM Tom_L: pull up the network list and look at freenode. above it will be the nic list
03:02 PM Tom_L: make sure you fill in the main "User name"
03:03 PM Tom_L: at first i didn't fill that in either and had the same issue
03:08 PM skunkworks: pink_vampire: cool - what is it for?
03:14 PM FinboySlick: non-sadistic cowboy spurs.
03:15 PM andypugh: FinboySlick: Also usable as bolt-on Heelies
03:16 PM FinboySlick: Casters to move very stiff people.
03:16 PM FinboySlick: Or beefeaters mockups.
03:18 PM * Tom_L may move to england to dry out a bit
03:18 PM Tom_L: damn rain has been non stop for too long
03:25 PM andypugh: Aye, it’s been pretty dry here recently.
03:40 PM JT-Shop: hasn't rained for 2 days and water is still flowing out of the hill
03:53 PM XXCoder: perfect for farming. more water
03:55 PM JT-Shop: for rice if your fields are already planted and growing
03:57 PM XXCoder: true heh
04:16 PM pink_vampire: skunkworks: parts from my old typewriter
04:17 PM pink_vampire: I'm doing full rebuild on it
04:28 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/temp/Flood/Flood_canal2.jpg
04:28 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/temp/Flood/Flood_canal1.jpg
04:28 PM Tom_L: generally that is dry
04:28 PM Tom_L: but i have seen it to the brim so there is a little room for more
04:30 PM XXCoder: pink_vampire: making a start on it eh :)
04:30 PM pink_vampire: yeah aloooot of cleaning
04:31 PM Tom_L: need an ultrasonic cleaner for that
04:32 PM pink_vampire: the dark part is after about an hour in the ultasonic
05:00 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L: got your swim fins ready?
05:07 PM pink_vampire: what do you think is better for collets for my lathe ER40 or 5C?
05:08 PM net|: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3651616
05:22 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, the sky just let loose again
05:22 PM Tom_L: can barely see down the street
05:23 PM andypugh: pink_vampire: Interesting question. ER collets are meant for tool-holding whereas 5C are meant for work-holding.
05:23 PM andypugh: But, a set of ER40 (in metric) will cover absiolutely every size in the range.
05:23 PM andypugh: Whereas 5C only fit the size they are made for.
05:24 PM andypugh: But then you can’t get hexagonal ER collets.
05:25 PM syyl: find a friend with a wire-edm ;)
05:25 PM andypugh: I assume that this is in addition to the normal 3-jaw and 4-jaw chucks?
05:25 PM pink_vampire: I need better friends
05:26 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
05:26 PM cradek: a drawbar seems better than a front nut, but I can't say exactly why
05:26 PM pink_vampire: I have dead 3 jaw chuck, but the back plate is good,
05:26 PM pink_vampire: so I'm thinking to mount a collet chuck to it
05:27 PM andypugh: cradek: You see quite a few 5C with a front nut.
05:27 PM pink_vampire: i like that with 5C you can get very close to the material
05:27 PM andypugh: I have both :-)
05:27 PM pink_vampire: with the nut, you have limitation
05:28 PM cradek: ERs are made to hold hard things, and might mess up soft bars like aluminum/brass?
05:28 PM andypugh: Not really, the collet comes flush with the nut
05:28 PM cradek: but if you have ER who cares if the bar is a little wonky, it will still hold
05:28 PM andypugh: I have both, and each has its place
05:28 PM syyl: main problem with ER for me: cant hold short things
05:29 PM andypugh: https://photos.app.goo.gl/UdfkruNCQeWrxjsm6
05:29 PM syyl: you always need to fill the entire length of the collet bore
05:29 PM syyl: otherwise you damage the collet
05:29 PM syyl: (yes, you can cheat with a filler-piece behind a short piece, but thats shitty too.)
05:29 PM pink_vampire: what is the holding range of er?
05:29 PM andypugh: https://photos.app.goo.gl/6YV5ScLsRFvZ5qeY9 (ER with a hand-made reducer. Try to guess why :-)
05:29 PM syyl: nominal - 1mm usual
05:29 PM cradek: ER40 goes up to 26mm I think
05:30 PM pink_vampire: and with 5c?
05:30 PM andypugh: pink_vampire: Each ER collet goes down to a fraction smaller than the next size down.
05:30 PM syyl: 5c is nominal
05:30 PM andypugh: syyl: -0.5 for ER11 (ad maybe ER16)
05:30 PM syyl: correct
05:30 PM syyl: er16 is usualy -1
05:30 PM cradek: oh range per collet
05:30 PM pink_vampire: so there is no range in 5c?
05:30 PM syyl: but -0,5 feels better
05:31 PM syyl: no range with 5c
05:31 PM syyl: correct
05:31 PM syyl: maybe -0,1mm
05:31 PM cradek: no even some bars that are supposed to be to size don't really fit through the 5c
05:31 PM syyl: but thats pushing it
05:31 PM syyl: import-5c, cradek?
05:31 PM andypugh: I sometimes put 8mm tools in the 9mm ER32 when I have run out of 8mm ones.
05:31 PM cradek: more like dirty/rough stock
05:31 PM andypugh: But I am not proud of that.
05:31 PM syyl: the cheap 5c are sprung-close from the factory. absolutely annoying
05:33 PM pink_vampire: https://www.ebay.com/itm/123301958077
05:33 PM pink_vampire: this is cool
05:33 PM pink_vampire: I'm sure you can get something like that in 5c
05:33 PM andypugh: That last photo is a slightly interesting setup, it’s a square ER32 collet block held in a 4-jaw chuck. That turns out to be a decent way to get tiny stuff dead-nuts true.
05:34 PM pink_vampire: but not in er
05:35 PM andypugh: pink_vampire: https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-5C-STEP-COLLETS-2-3/362658719874?hash=item547024e882:g:a5sAAOSwAhNc5bh1
05:35 PM andypugh: (soft ones that you machine to fit)
05:35 PM syyl: carfull, for the large head 5c you need a closer-ring
05:35 PM syyl: or you are limited to very light work
05:37 PM sync: CMorley: it's kind of deliberate that there are no easily selectable configs at the moment, as that would enable users to just blindly try different configs and possibly damage their hardware
05:38 PM andypugh: A closer ring, or a spreader ring… https://photos.app.goo.gl/1jipEEoPcfQYr6zE7
05:39 PM andypugh: (Those spreader tings are D1-4, probably cost hundres of £ and I am almost certain were never used)
05:39 PM andypugh: I should steal them, the owner wouldn’t even notice.
05:40 PM andypugh: (They would fit my lathe, as they are from an identical model)
05:40 PM CMorley: Sync: but the do the same thing by blindly trying different numbers to see if it works (hence how i blew mine up)
05:40 PM pink_vampire: the goal is to find something that I can fit on the r8 and also on the lathe
05:41 PM andypugh: pink_vampire: R8?
05:41 PM CMorley: well i didn't blindly ..but obviously went too far
05:41 PM pink_vampire: yes,
05:42 PM pink_vampire: andypugh: https://i.imgur.com/VjW3gkp.png
05:42 PM andypugh: Make an R8 adaptor for the lathe spindle? I have one that lets me mount mill tool holders in the lathe. It surprisingly useful. It’s also ideal for making custom mill tooling.
05:43 PM andypugh: pink_vampire: Interesting setup. For tool sharpening?
05:43 PM CMorley: sync: for instance with a baldor bsm resolver, i could not find out the frquency required - so I 'blindly' put in 5000. i have since found out it should be 10000. Now that i found that out - I could add it to a database and no one else has to search (all baldor BSM motors use 10khz )
05:45 PM andypugh: CMorley: When I had a mystery resolver I put it on a function generator and oscilloscope to figure out what looked right (turned out to be a 400Hz aircraft resolver)
05:49 PM pink_vampire: andypugh: the r8 spindle is also servo spindle
05:50 PM andypugh: Nice
05:50 PM pink_vampire: I need to re-make this part https://i.imgur.com/wKeR6W9.png
05:50 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/kDxLLky.png
05:53 PM pink_vampire: I"m thinking about make it out of brass, and push a dowel pin
05:53 PM pink_vampire: but not all the way, so it will be stronger,
05:54 PM pink_vampire: maybe even loctite it, so it will be less stress on the brass
05:54 PM andypugh: Well, that one looks old, and broke recently, so it does not need to me much stronger. And brass would already be stronger.
05:54 PM andypugh: Brass is really strong stuff, you know.
05:55 PM andypugh: (Some brasses are stronger than some steels)
05:56 PM andypugh: You could probably fix that part. Nice long steel screw drilled and tapped in to the end, with the head resting in the steel rod.
05:57 PM pink_vampire: it is very small part
05:57 PM andypugh: (Add epoxy in the joint for belt-and-braces fix.)
05:57 PM pink_vampire: the bore is 8mm
05:57 PM andypugh: So use a very small screw :-)
05:58 PM pink_vampire: nooo.. I will teach the cnc how to make new one
05:58 PM andypugh: You can hang 190kg on a 2mm high-tensile screw
05:59 PM pink_vampire: but I need it perfect
05:59 PM andypugh: You can hang _me_ on a 1.6mm screw, in theory,
05:59 PM pink_vampire: i'm about 90 lbs
06:00 PM andypugh: So, why haven’t you made it already? You showed us that picture _weeks_ ago!
06:00 PM andypugh: Hey, I am the metric you, I am about 90 kg :-)
06:01 PM pink_vampire: long story short, I got a typewriter
06:02 PM pink_vampire: and I just fall in love with her
06:02 PM jthornton: I'm 13.4286 stone
06:03 PM andypugh: jthornton: I htought you were a big bloke? That’s less than me
06:03 PM andypugh: Small-JT?
06:03 PM jthornton: I lost a lot of weight over the last few years, made everything better health wise
06:03 PM pink_vampire: BTW, she need a decent name, she is old, but still beautiful lady born some time in the late 20's
06:03 PM jthornton: or MediumJohnT
06:04 PM andypugh: pink_vampire: Fully manual?
06:04 PM pink_vampire: yes
06:04 PM pink_vampire: I can't fined the model
06:04 PM andypugh: I rather like the IBM golfball machines, interesting tech.
06:04 PM cradek: I love the glass keys on the old manuals, but the cloth ribbons suck compared to my selectric that I actually use
06:04 PM jthornton: pink_vampire: when my Dad got out of WWII there was an advert for a job with the FAA
06:05 PM pink_vampire: it look like the underwood 5, but without the underwood logo
06:05 PM jthornton: he called to inquire and they said you can type right? Dad said sure how many words per minute
06:05 PM pink_vampire: cradek: it is with the glass keys
06:05 PM cradek: I have a correcting 10/12 pitch selectric 2 feet from me
06:05 PM pink_vampire: with black and red ribbon
06:05 PM cradek: pink_vampire: are you able to find ribbons that aren't dried up?
06:05 PM jthornton: so he bought an underwood at the pawn shop and taught himself how to type while riding the train from NC to Kansas City
06:06 PM cradek: jthornton: haha "uhhh, about 3 wpm, but I hope to be up to 7 when I get there"
06:06 PM pink_vampire: cradek: no idea, I got one at staples
06:07 PM cradek: cool
06:07 PM jthornton: IIRC I think he had to type 20 wpm to get the job
06:07 PM jthornton: and he did get the job
06:07 PM pink_vampire: jthornton: he must have got the portable
06:07 PM cradek: ha I could probably do that with one hand
06:07 PM jthornton: no, it was a regular underwood
06:07 PM pink_vampire: I'm working on the key slugs (I think this is the name for it)
06:07 PM jthornton: I think it was a 3 day ride
06:08 PM pink_vampire: sooo rusty, and not move very good in the slots
06:10 PM cradek: https://typewriterdatabase.com/1946-smith-corona-clipper.2066.typewriter
06:10 PM cradek: my manual with cool glass keys, with case, $9.99 from goodwill
06:10 PM cradek: it's lovely but I use the selectric instead
06:11 PM pink_vampire: one sec I will take a pic
06:11 PM andypugh: pink_vampire: (and other typewriter enthusiasts) see if you can find Episode 14 of Series 4 of the BBC programme “The Repair Shop”.
06:12 PM jthornton: andypugh: at one time I weighed 240 pounds... but that was not very much fun
06:12 PM jthornton: is that like the secret life of machines kinda?
06:12 PM andypugh: That has a typewriter being repaired. The main take-out being that making the gold transfers is now _really_easy_
06:13 PM andypugh: cradek: Would might like it in general, there is a clock and watch repairer.
06:13 PM andypugh: (And he isn’t annoying)
06:14 PM cradek: ha
06:14 PM cradek: it does sound like my kind of show
06:14 PM jthornton: I'm going to see if we can get that
06:14 PM andypugh: In fact, all of them are pretty good, I only think “I could do that better” about 10% of the time
06:14 PM Tom_L: e14 not currently available
06:15 PM jthornton: I rather like the Great British Baking Show
06:15 PM andypugh: I really liked the pottery making version of Bake-Off. (the Great Pottery Throw Down)
06:15 PM Tom_L: my search skips from e11 to e18
06:16 PM jthornton: I've not seen that
06:16 PM pink_vampire: my typewriter!! https://i.imgur.com/9RKtZmU.png
06:16 PM andypugh: There is a whole, relatively new, class of game show which is about people being _good_ at stuff rather than “amusingly” bad at stuff.
06:17 PM * jthornton clicks on images with abandon as I have 2GB of spare data
06:17 PM andypugh: (When I was a kif there was a game show about amateurs trying crafts, but they were almost obliged to be terrible)
06:17 PM jthornton: pink_vampire: are those spare parts on the right?
06:18 PM pink_vampire: LOL no
06:18 PM Tom_L: looks like the letters have been removed
06:18 PM pink_vampire: those are the "things" that hit that paper
06:18 PM andypugh: That appears to be optimised for typing binary?
06:18 PM jthornton: looks like a Wayne County smile for the hammers
06:19 PM cradek: cool, a wide carriage manual is a little unusual
06:19 PM andypugh: pink_vampire: I think that they call them hammers
06:19 PM cradek: and the red and black "keys" are cool
06:19 PM cradek: that's sure for accounting
06:19 PM pink_vampire: I'm eating and you make me laugh so hard
06:20 PM jthornton: I just noticed the red and black shift keys
06:20 PM cradek: have you seen the typewriters that are also adding machines? they'd do the addition for you while you typed lines into your ledger.
06:20 PM andypugh: I am getting a 30s rather than 20s vibe…
06:20 PM andypugh: cradek: Ooh, really?
06:20 PM cradek: and if you switch to red, it subtracts
06:21 PM andypugh: I need one of those.
06:21 PM cradek: seriously, I've seen one with separate clearable subtotals etc
06:21 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/Js9yKjn.png
06:21 PM andypugh: cradek: Did you see that CRT calculator with acoustic delay line memory?
06:21 PM pink_vampire: some tuning
06:21 PM cradek: that's a decent enough ribbon
06:21 PM cradek: andypugh: I've *fixed* one
06:22 PM pink_vampire: I need to solve the problem with the back space key
06:22 PM cradek: andypugh: but no, I haven't seen one lately
06:23 PM pink_vampire: it make the escapement stuck each time
06:23 PM andypugh: Are they as cool as they look in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BIx2x-Q2fE
06:25 PM cradek: oh yes
06:27 PM cradek: andypugh: https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_904253
06:28 PM andypugh: I suddenly feel the urge to make an acoustic memory. Partly as my first postdoc job was in improving piano wire. (Using Erbium, which, wierdly, also featured in my PhD on optical fibres)
06:28 PM cradek: andypugh: the one I worked on wasn't a friden, and it must have been a little later, because I think it had DTL ICs
06:29 PM cradek: andypugh: it was this one: https://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/vic14-322.html
06:32 PM cradek: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/photos2/1k/v14_1.jpg
06:33 PM cradek: the delay line is inside that metal box behind the decimal point selector switch
06:33 PM andypugh: That seems to be a magnetostrictive delay line. How dos that work? The one in the video I linked uses an acoustic twist in a length of piano wire. (you can tell this by the sharp right-angle bend at the input and output ends)
06:33 PM cradek: it goes BOING when you turn it on
06:33 PM cradek: hm I have no idea, I just assumed it was acoustic, since it seemed to make noises
06:35 PM sync: CMorley: sure, but we cannot curate the database and protect users from blowing their hardware
06:36 PM andypugh: cradek: ~Seem like the same thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory#Magnetostrictive_delay_lines
06:37 PM andypugh: So the video I linked might not be 100% accurate on how the signal gets in and out of the spiral.
06:38 PM cradek: huh that looks downright low-tech
06:38 PM cradek: if you could match the bit rate to your video scan, it would make very useful video memory
06:38 PM andypugh: sync: Err, I am not sure of the background here, but that’s about the most scary sentence I have read here...
06:40 PM sync: andypugh: CMorley wants to build a database of motor configs, while I agree with the idea, it can also lead to users blindly trying out various configs and blowing their hardware because you cannot use a different config on another motor
06:41 PM andypugh: Ah, STMBL?
06:41 PM sync: yes
06:41 PM andypugh: That’s now less scarly.
06:41 PM andypugh: (not a lot, but a bit)
06:42 PM cradek: andypugh: I wonder what the extra sensor (?) near one end is for
06:42 PM andypugh: In which picture?
06:42 PM cradek: maybe one reader is for recirculating and the other is for reading
06:42 PM cradek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay_line_memory#/media/File:Torsion_wire_delay_line.jpg
06:44 PM andypugh: The one in the geometric middle?
06:44 PM cradek: yes
06:45 PM cradek: it's very near the end (or beginning) of the line
06:45 PM andypugh: It doesn’t even seem to be torsionally coupled.
06:46 PM cradek: yes but the head looks the same as the others
06:46 PM cradek: they have sequential serial numbers
06:46 PM andypugh: It’s certainly the same colour..
06:47 PM andypugh: And has an unused adjusting screw hole, and the same wiring.
06:47 PM cradek: if they were for reading consecutive words or something, you'd only need to adjust one
06:47 PM cradek: and the one on the other end to get the right number of words total
06:47 PM andypugh: Maybe it is the actual read-write head and the other ones just hardware-recirculate?
06:48 PM andypugh: (because most of the time the data does not change)
06:49 PM cradek: if so I think both of the others would not need to be adjustable
06:49 PM * cradek shrugs
06:49 PM cradek: it's guesses all the way down
06:49 PM andypugh: Well, we could exhume and re-animate the designer…
06:51 PM cradek: pretty cool how the cost isn't even remotely proportional to the number of bits. must have felt like quite a discovery.
06:51 PM jym: andypugh: zombie designers
06:52 PM andypugh: Ignoring practicality, how does the cost of one bit-lenght of steel wire compare to the cost of one bit of RAM / Flash?
06:53 PM andypugh: And how is that even possible?
06:53 PM andypugh: If we say that 1k = 1m of wire
06:54 PM cradek: can we use my 12 micron copper? it's pretty long per gram.
06:57 PM andypugh: Then a 32GB uSD is £3.69 and equivalent to 32,000 km of wire. Which would cost £20 million. And it is hard to think of anything as cheap to make as plain steel wire…
06:57 PM cradek: I guess things have changed since 1969
06:58 PM andypugh: Yes, but, still, how can a silicon chip be 7 orders of magnitude cheaper than the sheapest possible thing?
07:14 PM andypugh: cradek: And since 1895.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwh0KH-ICCw
07:15 PM andypugh: 5:50 is ROM made from brass
07:16 PM Tom_L: heh
07:25 PM perry_j1987: andypugh i use one of those daily... none of that fancy schmancy digital calculator crap
07:25 PM cradek: ok but I want to see the division
07:26 PM cradek: that's a really cool machine
07:26 PM andypugh: Yes, that does seem like an omission
07:27 PM andypugh: I am a bit confused that successive multiplcation by (for example) 4 and 5 is x54, not x 20.
07:27 PM cradek: it shifts
07:27 PM cradek: it's 4 and 50, not 4 and 5
07:28 PM andypugh: Yes, so if I wanted to multiply by 4 _then_ by 5, what would be different?
07:29 PM cradek: you'd just mash that clearing slider thingy I think?
07:30 PM andypugh: I need the manual, clearly. And the thing.
07:30 PM cradek: yes of course
07:30 PM andypugh: I think we can all agee that I desrve the thing.
07:32 PM andypugh: I suppose given that Babbage died in 1871, this machine from 1895 is in some ways a miracle of manufacture rather than of conception.
07:33 PM andypugh: (And he invented the first Turong-complete machine in 1837..)
07:36 PM roycroft: hello, folks
07:36 PM roycroft: i'm going to query about something that may be controversial, but i'd appreciate opinions that might guide me
07:36 PM roycroft: it's about spot drills
07:37 PM roycroft: i'm going to replace my old, cheap ones with higher quality ones
07:37 PM roycroft: and there are two things to consider:
07:37 PM roycroft: 1. m7 vs. m42
07:38 PM roycroft: for durability m42 would probably be better, but i'll often be drilling through mill scale on hot rolled steel, and wonder if m42 would be more prone to chipping
07:38 PM roycroft: 2. (the controversial part): should the spot drill angle be greater than or less than the primary drill angle to ensure the most accurate hole size?
07:39 PM roycroft: i've seen arguments for both sides that seem pretty reasonable
07:39 PM roycroft: and different manufacturers give different recommendations
07:40 PM andypugh: roycroft: I am pretty sure that, if you told me the result of experiment, I could explain it plausibly ;-)
07:40 PM roycroft: the main argument for less than the primary angle is that if the chisel tip lands first it will wander around in the cone produced by the spot drill
07:40 PM andypugh: Does anyone suggest “exactly the same” as a compromise?
07:41 PM roycroft: the main argumen tfor greater is that if the primary drill is not ground perfectly, one of the flutes will grab first and pull the drill off-center and produce a too-large hole
07:41 PM Tom_L: i thought typically large spot drills are used so they don't wander
07:41 PM Tom_L: we always used 5/8 etc or larger
07:41 PM andypugh: I would imagine that this might depend on the relative chisel width of the spot drill and drill drill.
07:41 PM roycroft: nobody makes 118 degree spot drills, which is the most common angle that i use
07:42 PM roycroft: commonly one finds 90 degree and 120 degree spot drills
07:42 PM roycroft: they can always be reground, of course
07:42 PM Tom_L: i got a few cheap 90 and double their use as chamfer tools
07:42 PM roycroft: yes, i was going to say, some folks like to do that
07:42 PM Tom_L: saves a tool change
07:43 PM roycroft: use a spot drill larger than the hole size and use it to shamfer and spot at the same time
07:43 PM Tom_L: i had a carbide one made but have some cheaper ones
07:43 PM roycroft: chamfer, rather
07:43 PM roycroft: i might buy one of each angle in a single size and experiment
07:44 PM roycroft: any opinions on m7 vs m42?
07:44 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/Final/Vise_parts/Speedhandle2.jpg
07:44 PM Tom_L: i used the carbide one to chamfer that
07:45 PM roycroft: i have a number of m7 jobber drills and they hold up quite well
07:45 PM pink_vampire: very nice chamfer
07:45 PM Tom_L: for wandering, the larger the bit the better
07:46 PM roycroft: if i want fairly accurate holes without reaming it may be that screw machine vs. jobber drills would make a bigger difference than the spot drill angle
07:46 PM roycroft: but i'm not ready to invest in a bunch of screw machine drills right now
07:47 PM pink_vampire: what kind of bit did you use?
07:47 PM Tom_L: shorter would be less deflection
07:47 PM andypugh: roycroft: shamfer, chamfer, shampher, champher. I thing that the first and last are real words.
07:47 PM flyback: BMCC
07:47 PM roycroft: they well could be, andypugh
07:48 PM roycroft: i have this annoying habit of fixing my typos though
07:48 PM roycroft: even though i know folks understand what i type in spite of them
07:48 PM roycroft: and even if the typo is an acceptable spelling
07:49 PM Tom_L: and i thought it was expected on irc :D
07:49 PM roycroft: so do both arguments about the spot drill angle sound plausible?
07:50 PM roycroft: i just got a nice huot wire gauge drill dispenser, btw, and when i was loading it up with drills i measured them all to ensure they went in the right slots
07:51 PM roycroft: i found that the higher quality drills averaged about 0.001" undersize, while the cheap ones aka harbor freight were more like 0.005" undersize on average
07:51 PM Tom_L: i'd try both and decide for yourself
07:52 PM roycroft: and i wonder if that's because the cheap ones are so crappy that they bore way oversize
07:52 PM andypugh: roycroft: But which work best? Maybe the HF ones unwind that little bit more and need more allpwance
07:52 PM roycroft: or is that giving the hf type folks too much credit?
07:52 PM roycroft: maybe it's that they can save an extra 0.001cents/drill by making them hugely undersize
07:52 PM andypugh: Ah we seem to have been thinking the same way
07:53 PM roycroft: the main difference i've seen is that the cheap ones last about 1 or 2 holes
07:53 PM Tom_L: i didn't know pot metal was worth that much
07:53 PM roycroft: while the better ones last dozens at least
07:53 PM gregcnc: they are for people who don't know how to measure a drill
07:53 PM gregcnc: or the hole it makes
07:53 PM Tom_L: gregcnc, with a tape measure right?
07:53 PM gregcnc: the bolt fit,.... perfect
07:54 PM roycroft: a lot of them are for people who want to impress their friends with a number gauge drill index full of shiny yellow drills sitting on their shelf
07:54 PM roycroft: tariffs, tom_l :)
07:54 PM andypugh: My best drills are not yellow.
07:54 PM roycroft: nor mine
07:55 PM gregcnc: they are carbide
07:55 PM roycroft: but my best drills do not sit on a shelf to impress friends
07:55 PM andypugh: I see yellow as a sign of cheapness, oddly.
07:55 PM roycroft: they make holes for me
07:55 PM gregcnc: and oddly have holes in them
07:55 PM Tom_L: it depends on the material you plan to cut with them as to their color
07:55 PM roycroft: i don't have many carbide drills, and haven't needed them often
07:55 PM andypugh: My really expensive ones are a slightly grey silver
07:56 PM Tom_L: andypugh a bit of cobalt?
07:56 PM roycroft: are they m42?
07:56 PM andypugh: (ignoring the few solid carbides, which are all chipped or broken)
07:56 PM Tom_L: cobalt bits are thicker
07:56 PM Tom_L: thicker web
07:56 PM roycroft: carbide drills almost ship chipped :)
07:56 PM gregcnc: don't buy chinese carbide drills?
07:57 PM roycroft: i think the chinese ones are formed in the packaging
07:57 PM andypugh: HSS-Co (maybe the same as your M42, bear in mind that alloy names are not globallt standardised) https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/cutting-tools/hss-co-high-helix-jobbers-/6-00mm-cobalt-drill-for-stainless-steel/p/KEN0265600K
07:58 PM roycroft: m42 is 8-10% cobalt
07:58 PM Tom_L: cobalt is actually weaker, thus the reason for thicker webing
07:58 PM gregcnc: I like cobalt split points
07:58 PM roycroft: m7 is 0 cobalt, but fairly high molybdenym
07:59 PM andypugh: I bought one of each in the metric tapping sizes.
07:59 PM gregcnc: hah yeah i should do the same
08:00 PM roycroft: that's actually why i got the huot dispenser
08:00 PM roycroft: i'm getting a dozen each of the american customary tapping drill sizes that i use
08:00 PM andypugh: (2.5, 3.3, 4.2, 5, 6.8, 8.5) It’s not many drills.
08:01 PM roycroft: i got tired of running to the store every time i broke a drill, finding that nobody in this city carries wire gauge drills except harbor freight, and they only sell crap ones in full sets
08:01 PM roycroft: so i get to pay $35 because i broke a #25 drill
08:01 PM roycroft: and the new #25 only lasts for a few holes
08:01 PM gregcnc: in what?
08:01 PM roycroft: in anything
08:01 PM gregcnc: oh HF
08:01 PM roycroft: plastic? maybe 20 holes :)
08:02 PM roycroft: steel, 5 if i'm lucky
08:02 PM roycroft: i actualy did ok last weekend
08:02 PM roycroft: i had about 35 holes to drill and tap for 10-24
08:02 PM roycroft: i had three sets of the hf drills
08:02 PM andypugh: I have had the same drill set for for 20 years. And only a few have been reolaced, What do you do?
08:03 PM roycroft: so i'd drill 3-4 holes with 1 drill, set it aside, do the seme with the same size from the second set, then the third set
08:03 PM Tom_L: could be the wrong drills for the material
08:03 PM roycroft: then i'd go sharpen all 3 drills
08:03 PM roycroft: they are
08:03 PM Tom_L: geometry isn't equal on all drills
08:03 PM andypugh: I have a job comiung up where I will need to drill 3000 holes. I am not expecting to need more than a couple of bits.
08:03 PM roycroft: they're harbor freight drills
08:03 PM roycroft: which are the wrong ones for anything
08:03 PM roycroft: andypugh: when i have decent quality drills they last a very long time
08:04 PM Tom_L: i have one "good" set average price, not the best but not HF
08:04 PM andypugh: roycroft: Ah, yes, maybe. My set is Dormer. Maybe they were a good investment.
08:04 PM roycroft: but i've searched high and low, and there is absolutely no vendor i've found in this city who sell wire gauge drills except harbor freight
08:04 PM Tom_L: order one
08:05 PM roycroft: i went to one place and asked for a #25 drill, and was "corrected" that i meant a "#25 drill bit", because a drill is a machine, and a drill bit is a tool
08:05 PM gregcnc: I bought a cobalt set from Enco when I first started. It was decent but a few were wonky, at least one was the wrong size. All USA drills too.
08:05 PM roycroft: i was then told they did not carry any, but they could look up the fractional equivalent
08:05 PM roycroft: i said "there is no fractional equivalent" and was told that every drill has a fractional equivalent
08:05 PM roycroft: so they not only don't have them, they have no idea what they're talking about
08:06 PM Tom_L: https://www.travers.com/high-speed-steel-jobber-length-bright-finish-118176-point-drill-sets/p/519093/?keyword=drill%20set&lite=true&pricelistname=SITE
08:06 PM gregcnc: when i looked at buying a screw length set a few years later they were all stupid expensive, twice what i paid.
08:06 PM roycroft: iirc there are two letter drills that have fractional equilvalents
08:06 PM roycroft: but 0 wire gauge drills
08:07 PM Tom_L: no 'set' goes down to 80
08:07 PM andypugh: Well, technically they do all have a fractional equivalent, bit the denominator might have 5 figures :-)
08:07 PM Tom_L: they usually stop at 60
08:07 PM gregcnc: yeah you have to get the tiny set 61-80
08:08 PM Tom_L: i've only gotten the ones i needed below 60
08:08 PM andypugh: Don’t need this, but mayhaps you do: https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/cutting-tools/ground-flute-jobbers/a190-no-12-60-pce-jobber-drill-set-metal-case/p/DOR0253400L
08:08 PM roycroft: es, an e drill is 0.250"
08:08 PM roycroft: and i think that's the only one
08:08 PM roycroft: wire gauge drills go to #98, but the really tiny ones are extremely rare
08:09 PM andypugh: roycroft: Or perhaps very common, but you can’t find them.
08:11 PM roycroft: so i'm thinking i should buy a single size spot drill in both geometries
08:11 PM roycroft: probably a medium size one
08:11 PM roycroft: and do some test bores to see which produces the most accurate holes
08:12 PM cradek: the 135 split point stub drills really do start well
08:12 PM cradek: oh sorry, drill BITS
08:12 PM roycroft: yes, stub drills might elminate the need for spot drills
08:12 PM cradek: wouldn't want to get corrected :-)
08:12 PM roycroft: i would not be the one correcting you
08:12 PM roycroft: :)
08:12 PM cradek: I think the split point is the important thing, not so much the length
08:12 PM roycroft: i did not correct the vendor
08:13 PM cradek: it can be frustrating trying to buy things from ... people
08:13 PM Tom_L: i wouldn't eliminate spot drills in any case
08:13 PM roycroft: i just took umbrage that i, the customer, was being corrected
08:13 PM roycroft: especially since i was correct and the vendor was wrong :)
08:13 PM cradek: I think that's totally right and fine, if the customer is wrong
08:14 PM cradek: but yeah in your situation... wow
08:14 PM roycroft: tom_l: i think in my typical case of starting holes in hot rolled steel that a spot drill might be better, even if it means an extra operation
08:14 PM andypugh: Well, nomenclature is an odd thing. My workshop friends tend to talk in terms of “driblets” and sometimes “morose tapir driblets”
08:14 PM roycroft: my attitude is this:
08:15 PM roycroft: if both parties understand what is being said then unless one party explicitly asks the other to be corrected in case of mistaken usage, there should be no corrections
08:15 PM cradek: totally
08:15 PM roycroft: that just gets in the way of the communication, which is the opposite of what the correction *should* be about
08:16 PM roycroft: machinists tend to talk of drills as tooling and drilling machines as the machines that operate the tooling
08:16 PM cradek: but folks from ohio/alabama/michigan TALK WRONG
08:16 PM cradek: yeah, the machine is a drill PRESS and the thing it uses are DRILLS
08:16 PM roycroft: lay folks and contractors/woodworkers/etc. tend to talk about drill bits as tooling and drills as machines
08:17 PM roycroft: or a pillar drill :)
08:17 PM andypugh: Well, apart from the less/fewer thing which I am obliged to correct for their own good.
08:17 PM cradek: ha
08:17 PM cradek: yes that's a good example of irritating pedantry, thank you :-)
08:17 PM roycroft: that's a pond-centric distinction
08:18 PM roycroft: the funny thing is, though
08:18 PM cradek: (in my dialect I think we choose based on whether the thing is countable)
08:18 PM roycroft: if i went to the uk and used the term "drill press" i suspect most people in the trades would know what i mean
08:19 PM Tom_L: so what if you just asked for a drill?
08:19 PM roycroft: but in the usa if i say "pillar drill" most folks in the trades would give me a blank look
08:19 PM andypugh: Wikipedia is of the (possibly mistaken) opinion that the dril is the machine and the drill bit is the metal spiral.
08:19 PM roycroft: i'm not from the uk
08:19 PM roycroft: but i suspect that lay people in the uk would think that a "drill" is a machine
08:19 PM cradek: that might be correct for woodworkers, but I think it's wrong for machinists
08:19 PM roycroft: but machinists would head for the tool crib
08:19 PM cradek: I think the lingos are just different
08:20 PM Tom_L: do any trades agree on terminology?
08:20 PM roycroft: all trades agree that sheetrockers are the lowest of the low :)
08:20 PM cradek: no it's the mudders
08:20 PM roycroft: even though the term "sheetrocker" is a regionalism
08:20 PM Tom_L: but they hide what you do
08:20 PM Tom_L: be it good or bad
08:21 PM andypugh: The tool shop I linked earlier certainly uses “drill” to mean a pointy bit of metal: https://www.cromwell.co.uk/shop/cutting-tools/hole-making/3915
08:21 PM andypugh: No sign of the word “bit” on that page.
08:21 PM roycroft: i've seen things degenerate to the point where i almost do feel compelled to make corrections
08:22 PM roycroft: i've heard amateur machinists refer to end mills as "end mill bits" or "milling bits" countless times
08:22 PM roycroft: and i'm sorry
08:22 PM roycroft: but that's just wrong
08:22 PM roycroft: wrong to the point that it needs to be corrected
08:23 PM roycroft: i can silently drop the "bit" when someone says "drill bit"
08:23 PM roycroft: but "end mill bit" makes my skin crawl
08:23 PM andypugh: Of course, you need to be careful you don’t end up with a platoon of drills doing drill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_(animal) doing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibition_drill )
08:24 PM roycroft: this is getting a bit out of the scope of the original conversation now, but at least it isn't degenerating into politics :)
08:24 PM Tom_L: yet
08:25 PM roycroft: i still haven't heard any opinions on using m42/cobalt steel spot drills on mill scale
08:25 PM roycroft: my experience with m42 end mills on mill scale is that they tend to chip easily if i don't take really light passes until i get through the scale
08:26 PM Tom_L: is the m42 just a higher cobalt content?
08:26 PM Tom_L: if it is, i would avoid it
08:26 PM roycroft: but they last longer than the m7 (molybdenum) end mills
08:27 PM roycroft: it's 8-10% cobalt
08:27 PM roycroft: the m7 tool steel has no cobalt
08:27 PM Tom_L: they have a place but i'm not entirely sure where they fit in
08:27 PM Tom_L: the require a thicker web because they are cobalt
08:28 PM Tom_L: and i'm pretty sure but not positve they have different tip geometry
08:30 PM roycroft: all i know is that i've paid the extra money for the cobalt end mills and have learned that if i'm milling hot roll i have to be really really careful
08:31 PM roycroft: i should assume that lesson would translate to drills as well
08:31 PM Tom_L: endmills ground for steel have a lower approach angle (non technical term)
08:32 PM Tom_L: iirc ~3 deg
08:33 PM Tom_L: https://www.mscdirect.com/basicsof/end-mills
08:34 PM roycroft: not being a professional machinist, and not investing large sums of money in tooling, i may be making too big a deal of all this
08:34 PM Tom_L: i know they use the black coated ones on things like Ti
08:34 PM roycroft: but i do like understanding what i'm doing as much as possible
08:38 PM Tom_L: i learned about variable helix cutters the other day
08:38 PM Tom_L: one flute will be of a slightly different angle than the last
08:38 PM Tom_L: not visible to the eye
08:39 PM Tom_L: helps eliminate harmonics while cutting
08:40 PM roycroft: kind of like variable pitch bandsaw blades
08:41 PM Tom_L: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307210572_Modeling_and_Simulation_Based_Design_of_Variable_Pitch_and_Variable_Helix_Milling_Tools_for_Increased_Chatter_Stability
08:42 PM Tom_L: if you're into the math in it
08:42 PM roycroft: it looks like an interesting read
08:42 PM roycroft: but not right before dinner
08:43 PM * roycroft bookmarks
08:44 PM roycroft: actually, there is an option to download the pdf, so i did that
08:45 PM roycroft: my integral calculus skills are rather rusty, to say the least, as i've not used them in several years, but i can probably follow the article ok
08:46 PM * roycroft wanders off to take care of dinner
08:47 PM Tom_L: my local tool guy was telling me about a place that got them and their production went up quite a bit
08:47 PM Tom_L: most of use here probably aren't too worried about production runs
08:48 PM Tom_L: s/use/us
09:00 PM roycroft: it's interesting and useful to learn about such things even if one is not going to use them in production
09:33 PM CMorley: sync:I do understand your concern, but how are you stopping users from blowing up their hardware now? you have sample configs that they can miss use. you have instructions for the settings that are hard to understand/get right. I'm pretty sure that most people are not going to blame you if they used the wrong settings and blew up there hardware - particularly if you add a big warning. Anyways I won't labour the point more - it's your pr
09:38 PM andypugh: I have always understood HSS-Co drills to be intended for harder materials, specifically stainless.
09:49 PM roycroft: my understanding is that cobalt increases the heat tolerance of the tooling, which would be a benefit when machining stainless steel
09:49 PM roycroft: my experience is that it makes the steel more brittle than other tooling steels
09:53 PM Tom_L: cobalt does make it more heat tolerant but i'm not sure if it adds to the brittleness of the tool
09:56 PM roycroft: i've definitely noticed that
09:57 PM roycroft: but there may be other alloying elements in the m42 tooling that contribute to the brittleness vs. m7
09:57 PM Tom_L: the webbing will be thicker on a cobalt tool
09:58 PM roycroft: and i have to admit that i have observed small diameter m42 end mills start glowing red and turn into little balls, so the cobalt is not total magic :)
09:58 PM roycroft: in the hands of a mediocre machinst even m42 can be destroyed easily
09:59 PM Tom_L: it ends up being a combination of the best metal to cut another metal along with the geometry applied to it
09:59 PM Tom_L: there's no one single magic tool
10:00 PM Tom_L: cutters have come a long ways over the years for sure
10:01 PM roycroft: i'm sure i'll destroy more tooling over time
10:02 PM roycroft: but i'm trying to learn how to avoid that
10:02 PM roycroft: the destruction can be part of the learning
10:02 PM Tom_L: https://vermontamerican.com/twist-drill-bit-types-choose-right-twist-drill-bit/
10:03 PM roycroft: i've been pretty happy with m7 twist drills
10:04 PM roycroft: they seem to be a good compromise - they don't hold an edge for as long as some other alloys, but they're easy to sharpen and they can take a lot of abuse
10:12 PM roycroft: m42 is 1.1% carbon and m7 is 1.0% carbon
10:13 PM roycroft: i wonder if that has much of effect on the brittleness
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