#linuxcnc Logs
May 21 2019
#linuxcnc Calendar
01:40 AM extorr is now known as extor
02:11 AM Deejay: moin
02:28 AM pink_vampire: HI
04:07 AM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
05:08 AM Tom_L: morning
05:08 AM Tom_L: more rain... ugh
05:09 AM XXCoder: light rain here
05:09 AM Tom_L: looks like jt's gettin soaked too
05:10 AM XXCoder: here its confirmed to be very dry summer
05:10 AM XXCoder: snowpacks is below normal. fires aloy
05:34 AM jthornton: morning
05:45 AM jthornton: looks like we are right on the edge of it
07:03 AM net|: https://netpipe.ca/?page_id=3213
08:32 AM pink_vampire: hi
08:58 AM JT-Shop: hi
09:10 AM diginet_ is now known as diginet
09:10 AM tumdedum_ is now known as tumdedum
09:15 AM commavir_ is now known as commavir
09:16 AM iidefix_ is now known as iiidefix
09:46 AM extorr is now known as extor
10:30 AM matic292: Hello
10:30 AM matic292: I made a fresh install of debian on PC
10:31 AM matic292: It will not be connected to the internet
10:31 AM matic292: when booting up i get the issue and i have to wait 5mins
10:31 AM matic292: it says "a start job is running for raise network interfaces"
10:31 AM matic292: anyone had similar issue ?
10:52 AM Jymmmm: Morning folks
10:56 AM pcw_home: matic292: yes known issue with Debian when there's no network connection
10:56 AM Jymmmm: jthornton: I know you like your fiskars hatchet, came across a 4in1 Zippo one (axe/bow saw combo), which looked pretty cool, but saw a crazy russian hacker review with it cracked handle
10:56 AM Jymmmm: pcw_home: what's that?
10:57 AM pcw_home: Not sur eif its just the LinuxCNC Wheezy live image but it hangs if you have not network connectivity
10:59 AM Jymmmm: pcw_home: Oh, that's not good. I'm runnng ubuntu mate 4.15.0-50-generic #54-Ubuntu SMP Mon May 6 18:46:08 UTC 2019 and I don't have any networking issues fwiw (not lcnc)
11:08 AM Joe_Hildreth: Is there any difference between the following commands when building deb packages? (debuild -uc -us) and (dpkg-buildpackage -b -uc) Is one preferred over the other?
11:10 AM Jymmmm: Joe_Hildreth: It looks like debuild is a "shortcut" varieant... https://manpages.debian.org/jessie/devscripts/debuild.1.en.html
11:12 AM Joe_Hildreth: Jymmmm: After a little more reading it looks like debuild combines several tools together where dpkg-buildpackage is a single tool and requires other software to be run as well?
11:13 AM Jymmmm: Joe_Hildreth: That's the jest of it that I got from that link I gave
11:13 AM matic292: just solved a problem :)
11:14 AM matic292: had to make some changes in /etc/network/interfaces.d/setup
11:15 AM Jymmmm: pcw_home: I've always suspected in the back of mt mind that there's a little something a bit skewed in the lcnc build scripts, but I never really gave it much thought.
11:16 AM Joe_Hildreth: Thank you Jymmmm
11:38 AM Jymmmm: Joe_Hildreth: Not sure how much help I was, but yw =)
11:57 AM Joe_Hildreth: Is it possible to have the Integrator Manual included in the docs debian install file when compiling and making deb files from source code? It is in the docs directory but does not have a menu shortcut.
12:15 PM JT-Shop: did you install the docs?
12:16 PM JT-Shop: we don't have an integrator manual any more
12:16 PM gregcnc: i wonder if the shower curtain was an option https://www.ebay.com/itm/332232631625
12:29 PM Joe_Hildreth: John, I done a second compiile this morning. 2.8pre1 creating deb files. I installed linuxcnc-uspace deb and linuxcnc-don-en deb files. The documentation dows not include the integrators documentation, but if you look in the docs folder in the source tree, you will see it listed.
12:30 PM Joe_Hildreth: This doc has the stepper information I think and the best wiring practice that I worte a while back.
12:32 PM jthornton: if you look it's not the english docs
12:32 PM jthornton: I combined all the manuals into one years ago
12:32 PM jthornton: the french and spanish docs are not combined
12:34 PM Joe_Hildreth: OK, well let me check. I deleted the virtual machine to start afresh, so will be a while. I see the documentation on the web (http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/) But did not recall ssing it in the compiled and installed documentation. Maybe I overlooked it.
12:34 PM Joe_Hildreth: My spare rib claims I would not make it long as a snake hunter!
12:35 PM Joe_Hildreth: I will fire off another clone and recompile and check for my own sanity. Sorry John, don't mean to be a PITA. :-)
12:49 PM Joe_Hildreth: jthornton: When you compile a preempt_rt kernel, other than setting it to be fully premptable, what other options do you set or change in the kernel config? It was suggested that one should turn of ACPI but when I do, I sometimes get a kernel panic depending on the age and revision of the BIOS and the machine will not properly shutdown.
12:53 PM CaptHindsight: Joe_Hildreth: yes, one size kernel config does not fit all
12:54 PM CaptHindsight: BIOSes are often very broken
12:55 PM CaptHindsight: QC is often just: Does it boot winders and does it recognize the DRAM and HDD's
12:55 PM Joe_Hildreth: CaptHindsight: I understand what you are saying. I have a few old (10yrs+) machine laying around that I installed Lubuntu 18.04 on to compile a preempt kernel
12:56 PM Joe_Hildreth: It has been an adventure so to speak.
12:56 PM CaptHindsight: the generic LCNC livecd kernels were an attempt at one size fits all
12:57 PM Joe_Hildreth: I was just wondering what kernel config changes best supports what we are try to do here. Looking for suggestion, figure if the machine is sitting there might as well try stuff out.
12:57 PM CaptHindsight: lots of tradeoffs
12:57 PM JT-Shop: all I do is check fully premptable other things tend to break things
12:58 PM Joe_Hildreth: JT-Shop: The same seems to hold true for me too.
12:58 PM JT-Shop: the only thing not in the pdf docs are the developer pages as it's not appropriate to be in the user docs
12:59 PM JT-Shop: and well the man pages cause I can't figure out how to make them magically appear
01:00 PM * JT-Shop thinks the bleeding has stopped so back to work
01:00 PM Tom_L: rain.
01:04 PM mozmck: Joe_Hildreth: for preempt-rt there are minimal changes to make to the kernel config. IIRC pcw_home basically sets it to full rt preemption and that's it.
01:04 PM mozmck: I often change a few other settings, but not much.
01:05 PM jdh: Tom_L: how wet is it out there? will it dry out by June 1?
01:05 PM mozmck: The generic LCNC livecd kernels actually did/do quite a good job at being one-size-fits-all while having good latency
01:05 PM Joe_Hildreth: JT-Shop: OK, finished compiling and building debs for 2.8 pre1. In the emc/docs folder there is a LinuxCNC_Documentation.pdf file. This is the one that gets linked to the menu. There is also a LinuxCNC_Integrator.pdf file that contains the Stepper information and the best wiring practice. These do not seemed to be merged like they are on the website.
01:06 PM Tom_L: Jymmmm, no
01:06 PM Jymmmm: Tom_L: No what?
01:06 PM Joe_Hildreth: mozmck: With the hardware I have, setting the kernel to fully preemptible seems the only safe bet for me.
01:06 PM mozmck: Turning off ACPI is not recommended for preempt-rt - although I generally turn off frequency scaling and as much power management stuff as I can.
01:06 PM Tom_L: it won't dry by june
01:06 PM Tom_L: the ground is saturated and the flood canal is getting full again
01:07 PM Tom_L: err jdh..
01:07 PM Joe_Hildreth: mozmck: I was looking for a way to turn of frequency scaling in the kernel config and didn't see a way to turn it off. Now keep in mind I am a beginner, so could just be operator error! :-)
01:07 PM mozmck: Joe_Hildreth: if you want realtime that's what you need. Either that or RTAI.
01:07 PM Jymmmm: Tom_L: Oh nick completion snafu =)
01:08 PM jdh: that sucks probably more so if you live there
01:09 PM jdh: bike ride in emporia June 1
01:09 PM Tom_L: may not be so bad up there
01:09 PM mozmck: Joe_Hildreth: I don't remember exactly which menu it is under. On newer kernels I've found you have to turn off some other things if you want to completely disable power managment and maybe freqency scaling. If you look at the help for an item it doesn't let you change it will tell you what options depend on the one you are trying to change. There is also a search menu that can help in finding options.
01:11 PM JT-Shop: not sure where that comes from but I'll check... machine information should not be part of the LinuxCNC documents
01:11 PM Joe_Hildreth: mozmck: Thank you. I will dig into it a bit after I finish the LinuxCNC compiling Tutorial. I think I am on the down hill stretch. Just following my own notes to make sure that everything goes smooth. I am hoping that over time these video tutorials will help people getting started.
01:12 PM mozmck: Thank you for making the tutorials - I'm sure they will be helpful.
01:12 PM Joe_Hildreth: Just trying to give back a little. Too many to name on here and the forums have helped me out over the years.
01:14 PM mozmck: Here's from the Preempt-rt howto: NOTE: Since rt patch 2.6.18-rt6 you will probably have to activate ACPI option to activate high resolution timer. Since the TSC timer on PC platforms, as used in the previous versions, are now marked as unsuitable for hrt mode due to many lacks of functionalities and reliabilities, you will need i.E. pm_timer as provided by ACPI to use as clock source.
01:15 PM mozmck: A lot of the info you can find is dated so it can be hard to sort through it and find currently good stuff. Another problem with disabling ACPI is that some systems will overheat without some of the features in it.
01:15 PM Joe_Hildreth: JT-Shop: I am not following you about the machine information. I just noticed that the integrator infromation containing some stepper stuff and wiring is part of the online documentation but does not appear to be part of the docs for the compiled version. It is created as a sperate Integrator document.
01:15 PM jthornton: I'm looking at that now
01:16 PM jthornton: that should have been removed in 2015 but don't know why it was not
01:16 PM Joe_Hildreth: mozmck: The main issue I seem to find when disabling APCI is that the machine will not shut down. You get the "shutting down screen" for lack of a better word and just hangs there.
01:16 PM kanzure_ is now known as kanzure
01:17 PM mozmck: Ah, you will get that - yes.
01:17 PM Joe_Hildreth: jthornton: I don't know if the 2.7 branch does that too as I have not compiled it in a while. Will check it next.
01:18 PM Joe_Hildreth: mozmck: ACPI talks to hardware to power down the machine, correct?
01:23 PM mozmck: Yes, I think the "button" module is what you need for that.
01:23 PM Joe_Hildreth: I think I have learned enough to be a danger to myself and others. :-)
01:23 PM Joe_Hildreth: mozmck: Did you push your updated debian config files to 2.7?
01:23 PM mozmck: Yes!
01:23 PM Joe_Hildreth: Thank you sir!
01:23 PM mozmck: no problem
01:43 PM cpresser_ is now known as cpresser
01:45 PM jthornton: hmm there is no .desktop file is why it doesn't show up, I'll fix that in the morning
01:51 PM Joe_Hildreth: jthornton: Thank you sir. Is it the same with 2.7? I am close to compiling it now.
02:17 PM Joe_Hildreth: jthornton: Finished compiling 2.7 debs and it has the same issue as 2.8 pre1 with the separate integrator docs. Hope that helps. Thank you gain for all yor help John. I appreciate it.
03:08 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/400mm-Ball-Screw-Linear-CNC-Slide-Stroke-400mm-Long-Stage-Actuator-Stepper-Motor/283423987703
03:09 PM CaptHindsight: lots of these on ebay but the repeatability is pretty poor
03:12 PM XXCoder: omg its american :P
03:12 PM CaptHindsight: stocked in uhmerica
03:12 PM XXCoder: made at china, location in usa im sure
03:12 PM CaptHindsight: please contact us, we will get back to you firstly
03:13 PM XXCoder: lol https://www.ebay.com/itm/1204-Ball-Screw-CNC-Linear-Slide-Stroke-Stage-Actuator-Stepper-Motor-400MM-Long/323161720416
03:13 PM XXCoder: maybe not too bad for less precision need
03:14 PM XXCoder: wtf https://www.ebay.com/itm/12mm-Miniature-Linear-Slide-Rail-Guide-MGN12H-Sliding-Block-DIY-CNC-3D-Printer/352574112999
03:14 PM XXCoder: so cheap
03:15 PM CaptHindsight: made from the finest pot metals
03:23 PM gregcnc: capt I was at the uav show in chicago a couple weeks ago. There was a british co. who makes engines, not a single casting was used. all printed aluminum for components
03:34 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: printed and machined?
03:41 PM gregcnc: right. these were cases cylinders of small two stroke engines
03:42 PM CaptHindsight: was at Design2Part talking to the foundries
03:42 PM gregcnc: are they keeping up with the times or struggling?
03:43 PM CaptHindsight: everyone around here sends their customers to Hoosier https://hoosierpattern.com/additive-manufacturing
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: for molds
03:44 PM CaptHindsight: they use an inkjet to print binder into the sand, it's pretty slow
03:46 PM JT-Shop: dang I just got a quote on a AB CompacLogix PLC and the processor is $4.5k...
03:46 PM gregcnc: renishaw told me they have powder metal printers with up to four lasers
03:47 PM FinboySlick: I like the lost wax ones where they just dip a wax model in ceramic to create the mould.
03:47 PM gregcnc: investment casting is expensive
03:49 PM FinboySlick: Yeah but it's a neat process.
03:49 PM FinboySlick: I guess it's mostly when finish/precision matters more.
03:50 PM gregcnc: additive is probably already competitive with investment
03:51 PM CaptHindsight: also depends on how dense you need the metal parts to be
03:51 PM CaptHindsight: additive is not as dense as cast
03:52 PM CaptHindsight: you can SLA print investment patterns
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: water rinse out resin is faster than burn out
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: investment has finer features than sand casting
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: or additive metal
03:54 PM CaptHindsight: saw some desktop metal parts
03:55 PM CaptHindsight: great when you don't need parts as dense as cast
03:55 PM CaptHindsight: JT-Shop: does the customer require AB?
03:57 PM CaptHindsight: I'm modding some 4K projectors to print sand molds very rapidly
03:57 PM gregcnc: that sounds fun
03:58 PM gregcnc: sand gets coated in binder?
03:58 PM CaptHindsight: yes
03:58 PM CaptHindsight: like inkjet only this scans the area faster
03:59 PM gregcnc: all of the sand is coated, but only cures exposed areas
04:00 PM CaptHindsight: 500w leds
04:01 PM gregcnc: dang
04:02 PM CaptHindsight: 2 second tanning
04:04 PM jthornton: CaptHindsight: some do some don't, in this case I'm selling them a used PLC so I needed a reference price
04:12 PM gregcnc: capthondsight, with the water soluble resin how much detail is lost when you rinse the uncured resin?
04:15 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: Roger reports that water-soluble resin dissolves in the plaster to some extent as the plaster sets.
04:34 PM Deejay: gn8
04:35 PM JT-Shop: night
05:05 PM BitEvil is now known as SpEEdEVil
05:14 PM * JT-Shop finds it hard to believe that he can't find any duplex receptacles laying about with all the crap I have
06:04 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: it requires a high green strength investment https://www.ransom-randolph.com/bandust-technology
06:05 PM CaptHindsight: https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/cc5f22_52495d64870b406f86efb835c8747e7e.pdf
06:05 PM CaptHindsight: Plasticast
06:07 PM _unreal_: tonight I might get to the motor controllers on my cnc machine. my interface adapter board I built last night works.
06:10 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: Not interested…
06:11 PM andypugh: (trying to fix the Wheezy LiveCD as that seems to be the only workable RTAI option)
06:14 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: last heard you had some strange error after it ran
06:14 PM andypugh: No, I have completely given up with that.
06:14 PM andypugh: That was Stretch
06:15 PM andypugh: Now, in desperation, I am trying to make the Wheezy installer CD point at the debian archives, as Wheezy has dropped off the servers
06:16 PM CaptHindsight: would gentoo be easier?
06:25 PM CaptHindsight: for what it's worth I'm just using preempt_rt with the Mesa 6i25 and the G540 configuration for stepper systems
06:25 PM CaptHindsight: instead of RTAI and a PCIe LPT card
06:46 PM andypugh: Well, yes, I am not a fan of RTAI and LPT, but I suspect that a lot of users would be unhappy if we stopped supporting it.
06:57 PM Valen: https://www.rtai.org/?Homepage&id=40 suggests there's support for kernel 4.14 now with rtai
07:13 PM andypugh: Yes, now try compiling and using it...
07:14 PM andypugh: I already lost most of a week of my life that way
07:17 PM CaptHindsight: Valen: thats all beta RTAI
07:35 PM Valen: andypugh: oh :-(
07:35 PM CaptHindsight: rtai.org should have a warning label on it
07:35 PM andypugh: I mean, it compiles, which is a start. But I couldn’t make it run
07:36 PM CaptHindsight: but his ego will never go for it
07:48 PM Valen: my expertise is in solving problems others have already solved, this is solving new problems, I'm no good at that
07:55 PM Tom_L: it's supposed to run too ?!?!
08:02 PM Valen: Tom_L: we ask too much I know ;-)
08:09 PM flyback: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/11/intel-to-kill-off-the-last-vestiges-of-the-ancient-pc-bios-by-2020/
08:11 PM CaptHindsight: and replace with even worse crapware
08:12 PM CaptHindsight: PC BIOS was not an OS so it would have taken a big patch to get it to access your system remotely
08:13 PM CaptHindsight: so they wrote a new OS from scratch to do it
08:13 PM CaptHindsight: UEFI
08:13 PM CaptHindsight: they could have use Linux as the OS but they didn't want that
08:14 PM CaptHindsight: they wanted something closed and proprietary
08:14 PM CaptHindsight: Linux fit into 0.5MB back then
08:15 PM CaptHindsight: now BIOS devices are 16MB
08:25 PM CaptHindsight: hello rsteiner
08:41 PM Elmo40: CaptHindsight, what you are saying is UEFI is the NSA's backdoor into my system?
08:44 PM CaptHindsight: anyone with the keys
08:45 PM Tom_L: is it a skeleton key?
08:45 PM Tom_L: one fitz all
08:45 PM CaptHindsight: UEFI lets you remotely access the entire system out of band
08:46 PM CaptHindsight: Red Skeleton
08:46 PM Tom_L: quite the character
08:47 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4mgHNX9eUg Red Skelton: Classic Guzzler's Gin
09:52 PM ziper: SpEEdEVil, ok, I did some steel cutting with a hand router
09:52 PM ziper: but it was rather unintentional
09:52 PM SpEEdEVil: :)
09:55 PM roycroft: that should work fine, as long as you slow the router down to about 1/20 its normal speed
09:55 PM roycroft: otherwise it was probably rather exciting
10:00 PM Elmo40: plenty of sparking to be had!