#linuxcnc Logs
May 20 2019
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:01 AM XXCoder: lol
12:14 AM pink_vampire: lol yeah
12:21 AM XXCoder: finished
12:21 AM XXCoder: though 1:1 is quite blurry so dunno
12:22 AM XXCoder: seemed to me that they took a high res image and blew it up way too big
12:46 AM pink_vampire: I'm tring to make a list of all the parts for my mid
12:46 AM pink_vampire: trying
01:35 AM Loetmichel: mornin'
01:40 AM Loetmichel: maaan i should make the (second) toilet into a full bath... sittin there in the morning waiting that the wife gets out ot the tub so i can shower while the clock si already close to work time... not good. Only 10 minutes late though, had to "blitzshower" ;)
01:41 AM Loetmichel: s/si/is
01:41 AM pink_vampire: toilet bidet
01:42 AM Loetmichel: i meant the room
01:42 AM Loetmichel: not the ceramics .-)
01:44 AM pink_vampire: naa, just use that https://www.amazon.co.uk/Clinell-Bed-Bath-Wipes-Pack/dp/B017XGWF10
01:45 AM Loetmichel: ahem... not my idea of feeling "clean" in the morning. also that wouldt take care of the beard stubbs ,)
02:31 AM Deejay: moin
03:33 AM * Loetmichel just threw a few liters of isopropyl alcohol and half a bottle dish soap into the Spindle cooling tank... here's hoping that that gets rid of the "bacteria grow" inside the cooling fins... pump needs to be cranked up to 1 bar to move ANYTHING thru the spindle (it has a little "bypass valve" where you can adjust maximum pressure, its a membrane pump)
03:53 AM Loetmichel: hmm. interesting... that 8mm*1,5mm (so 11mm outer diamenter) PVC tube on the pressure side of the cooling pump is now about 18mm outer diameter... and hard as stone, while the suction side pvc tube is still squishy by hand and normal diameter... seems there is QUITE the clogging in the spindle... here's hoping the hoses hold the pressure long enough to clean the spindle up... ( is there any
03:53 AM Loetmichel: kind of "floating grit" i could pump thru the system to clean it from the inside?)
03:57 AM XXCoder: lol dunno
03:57 AM XXCoder: wouldnt grit eat pujmp
03:58 AM XXCoder: also might actually add to it
04:15 AM Loetmichel: hmm, that dosent look like it cleans it out... you need to "knead" the tube to get the groth to losen up and move to the tank... maaan, i dont want to dismantle the Spindle! -> https://youtu.be/fgTKKEsd02M
04:50 AM pink_vampire: https://xmlapi.thomasnet-navigator.com/cndownload/Asset/BasicCADDownload?downloadurl=https://fci.thomasnet-navigator.com/cache/Geomstore/20190520-054556-04510828.pdf&fileName=35316-Fastenal-05-20-2019.pdf&isRenderFile=True
04:52 AM pink_vampire: how the thickness is 0.6-0.55mm but at the prodect page it show "Groove Width 1.3mm"
04:52 AM pink_vampire: https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/35316
04:52 AM pink_vampire: according to the DIN471 the ring thickness is 1.2mm
04:54 AM XXCoder: paper says groove width is 1.1
04:54 AM XXCoder: thickness is .55-.6
04:55 AM pink_vampire: https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/X0YAAOSw6cBc1V8T/s-l1600.jpg
04:55 AM pink_vampire: look here on the s value for d20
04:56 AM XXCoder: whats your d
04:56 AM XXCoder: duh d20
04:56 AM pink_vampire: yeah
04:56 AM XXCoder: it says b is 2.6 too
04:56 AM XXCoder: that picture isnt close
04:57 AM XXCoder: ebay one is far thinner model than yours
04:58 AM pink_vampire: you mean the fastenal..
04:58 AM XXCoder: yeah fastenal
04:58 AM XXCoder: so ebay one is wider and bit thicker too
04:59 AM XXCoder: not sure if it;d be compitable
05:00 AM pink_vampire: if the groove is 0.5, and 1.3mm thick, you need 2rings from fastenal, but the thin section of the ring not going to stick out from the groove
05:01 AM XXCoder: i dont know what you need to use it for so i cant really comment :)
05:01 AM XXCoder: certainly different besides inside diameter and A
05:02 AM pink_vampire: according to the cad model, the thin section of the ring is 0.38mm HOW it can do ANYTHING if it deep inside of a 0.5 mm groove??
05:02 AM XXCoder: indeed
05:02 AM XXCoder: puzzled.
05:04 AM pink_vampire: i need some spring steel and 5 minutes with my HF spindle
05:04 AM XXCoder: those its probbly easier to use press
05:04 AM XXCoder: punch em
05:05 AM XXCoder: also once setup done you can use it again few times
05:05 AM pink_vampire: i think for just one ring it is much easier to cut it
05:06 AM XXCoder: yeah
05:30 AM * Loetmichel is making some PCB covers out of PMMA... maaan that gets HOT at the fingertips ;) -> https://youtu.be/CPOjxOnWYcc
05:31 AM XXCoder: man you got so many adventures :P lol
05:37 AM Tom_L: happy monday!
05:39 AM XXCoder: yay
05:43 AM jthornton: morning
05:43 AM XXCoder: yo
05:45 AM Tom_L: lookin like it could storm later this morning
05:46 AM jthornton: looking good here today 76 and sunny
07:50 AM pink_vampire: Loetmichel: did you saw that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcIvnRfQvY0
08:15 AM Loetmichel: pink_vampire: looks like the mill bit was totally bored.
08:15 AM pink_vampire: what do you mean?
08:16 AM Loetmichel: i would probably used tenfold the spindle RPM, way more agressive cut and feed and a razor sharp twoflute bit NOT TiN coated.
08:16 AM Loetmichel: and it would still be bored to death in foam PVC
08:16 AM Loetmichel: i dont see the need for that "circular cutting" in that material at all
08:17 AM pink_vampire: it can chip very easy
08:17 AM pink_vampire: it is adaptive cut
08:18 AM pink_vampire: and the end I did the final cut
08:19 AM pink_vampire: this was the largest and longest endmill I have
08:20 AM pink_vampire: Loetmichel: this is what it's end up after assembly https://i.imgur.com/VjW3gkp.png
08:21 AM Loetmichel: pink_vampire: makes sense
08:21 AM Loetmichel: still i dont see the need for an adaptive cut
08:22 AM Loetmichel: that stuff is so fluffy that you probably move thru it with G0 at full cutter depth on that machine without anything bad happening
08:22 AM pink_vampire: you can't climb foam at 1000 rpm with 3/4" cutter, it will chip the edge
08:23 AM jdh: "because" is sufficient need.
08:23 AM gregcnc: what's going on with the spindle there?
08:23 AM Loetmichel: ah, 1000 rpm is the max the mill can do?
08:23 AM Loetmichel: gregcnc: probably regrinding of the ER11 cone?
08:24 AM Loetmichel: they have a tendency to be slightly out of alignment on the cheap watercooled spindles sometimes
08:25 AM pink_vampire: the problem with foam pvc is that face that it can compress and deform under heavy cut, so, you have to slice it with adaptive to get the correct radius
08:26 AM Loetmichel: pink_vampire: i see, thats why you do the heavy cutting in one pass and then do a 0,1mm or so "finishing pass"
08:26 AM pink_vampire: but you will stress the material,
08:27 AM pink_vampire: it will be bent
08:27 AM pink_vampire: you can do it with very high rpm - not 1000, and not 3/4"
08:29 AM pink_vampire: I run alot of foam pvc here, with the HF is like cutting air, but with the main spindle is more like cutting sponge
08:31 AM Loetmichel: i can imagine
08:32 AM Loetmichel: thats why i asked if you cant do more than 1000 rpm
08:33 AM pink_vampire: you must remember that if you convectional cut something like foam, the cutter push the material in the cutting area, and in my case the cutting was in the middle of the part, so heavy compression load, will make it look like a bow shape
08:33 AM Loetmichel: <- is doing 1mm deep cuts with a 20mm diameter bit meant for wood routers to face off the Phenlic spoinboard on my machine... at 24krpm and F3600 :-)
08:34 AM Loetmichel: its like standing in the middle of a phenolic swarf hurricane ;)
08:35 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17171&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- if you know what i mean ;)
08:35 AM Loetmichel: at 1000 rpm that wouldnt work though
08:36 AM Loetmichel: F3600 means 140IPM ;)
08:36 AM Loetmichel: and with a 3/4" bit ;)
08:37 AM pink_vampire: your feed per tooth is 0.05mm, in my case, it was 0.4mm feed per tooth at 20mm depth of cut
08:38 AM Loetmichel: yeah, thats why i said: more RPM... if your spindle cant do it: i can see why you would go so low though
08:39 AM pink_vampire: I'm sure the HF can cut it like nothing, but i don't have long tools for it
08:40 AM * Loetmichel has some 6mm tungsten carbide 2 flutes with 2" cutting depth
08:40 AM Loetmichel: that should be sufficient ;)
08:40 AM pink_vampire: my mailing address to 2 days ago is..
08:42 AM Loetmichel: *grin* if you can make THAT work i will gladly send you one to tow days in the past.
08:43 AM pink_vampire: LOL
09:02 AM enleth: https://i.imgur.com/YUy1Ard.jpg mounting flange was somewhat rusty and I didn't want to risk snapping the bolts holding it with an impact wrench
09:03 AM pink_vampire: enleth: you got very nice toy
09:05 AM jdh: you have way too much room!
09:07 AM gloops: thats not old enough to be rusty
09:10 AM enleth: gloops: 1996
09:11 AM enleth: was kept outside for a couple weeks at one point
09:11 AM Loetmichel: enleth_ so you made it dunk its "hand" into WD40?
09:12 AM Loetmichel: ah, s/wd40/vaporus
09:12 AM enleth: Loetmichel: into evaporust, yes
09:12 AM Loetmichel: t
09:12 AM Loetmichel: how many tries took it to hit the bucket?
09:12 AM Loetmichel: :-)
09:13 AM * Loetmichel can totally see himself standing there teaching the bot to dunk the hand into the bucket in one smooth move for hours on end util its "perfect" ;)
09:13 AM enleth: almost crushed it when I snagged the rim
09:15 AM enleth: that robot has a 200kg dynamic payload capacity, it crushes stuff that's in the way wuthout noticing
09:15 AM Loetmichel: i know,
09:16 AM pink_vampire: enleth: first you need to program it to open a beer.
09:16 AM Loetmichel: i helped setting up a used kuka welding bot that could carry 250kg on the wrist and an additional 250kg (for the welder) on the last joint before that
09:16 AM gregcnc: is that corner it's permanent home? i foresee holes in the walls.
09:16 AM Loetmichel: seeing that thing move inches from my face was a BIT frightening ;)
09:17 AM enleth: gloops: it is, I'll set up soft limits on A1
09:18 AM enleth: Loetmichel: that's slightly excessive for a welding robot
09:18 AM enleth: Loetmichel: was it just a used one, so they took whatever they could acquire?
09:19 AM enleth: this one is rated for 150kg aux load and I'm sure I won't be exceeding that
09:19 AM Loetmichel: enleth: it was a used welding robot for car industry
09:19 AM Loetmichel: 4 meters of reach to boot
09:20 AM Loetmichel: maximum
09:20 AM enleth: ah, ok
09:20 AM Loetmichel: it was used for putting brake discs onto a CNC grinder
09:20 AM Loetmichel: in its second life
09:20 AM Loetmichel: "slightly" oversized carry capacity wise, but the reach was spot on
09:21 AM enleth: do you remember tge model number? I can't recall any with a 250 in it
09:21 AM Loetmichel: (also to stand on the wrist and get lifted up by it to change the factorys Flourecent tubes... OSHA would have had a field day ;)
09:21 AM Loetmichel: nop, it was nearly 2 decades ago
09:22 AM enleth: Loetmichel: https://youtu.be/yln_IGDuOCo
09:22 AM Loetmichel: ooold model, the computer system still had win95 on it ;)
09:23 AM enleth: yep, KRC1, the same thing I have here
09:23 AM Loetmichel: your bot looks a lot familiar but its to small
09:24 AM enleth: this is a KR200/1A
09:24 AM Loetmichel: the "forearm" was square aluminium tube with about 25cm width and height
09:24 AM jdh: 6
09:24 AM Loetmichel: the upper arm was even thicker
09:25 AM Loetmichel: but same general construction
09:25 AM enleth: I wish I got it with a KRC2, way more hackable
09:26 AM enleth: KRC1 uses a PM6-600 monolithic servo drive, all six channels in a single device *on a single huge PCB*
09:26 AM Loetmichel: hmm, if memory serves well it had seperate drive units for the axis.
09:26 AM Loetmichel: in "slots"
09:26 AM enleth: oh, so it might have been a KRC1A
09:27 AM enleth: I haven't seen one in person, but the docs mention them
09:27 AM enleth: makes sense
09:27 AM enleth: 1A was made to handle robots bigger than KR200, that require more power than PM6-600 can handle
09:27 AM Loetmichel: probably, yes
09:28 AM enleth: anyway, this thing is connected to the PC via a very wide parallel bus that's entirely undocumented and custom
09:28 AM Loetmichel: it was mounted with about two dozen 1" bolts epoxied into the foundation in a circular pattern
09:28 AM Loetmichel: THAT i remember quite clearly
09:28 AM Loetmichel: concrete foundation
09:29 AM enleth: and it's an extremely dumb device, some layers of protection aginst it frying itself are in the DSPs on an ISA card instead of the actual servo drive
09:29 AM enleth: completely unusable for a retrofit
09:30 AM enleth: KRC2 has six separate drives interfacing via a standard field bus
09:30 AM Loetmichel: hmm, get new servo drives, get a mesa card, get linuxCNC?
09:30 AM Loetmichel: :-)
09:30 AM enleth: problem is, getting new servo drives for it is going to be expensive
09:30 AM enleth: even chinese ones
09:30 AM enleth: so I'm waiting for the new STMBL version to come out
09:31 AM enleth: it should be able to handle the three 7.4kW motors for A1-A3 at full power
09:31 AM jdh: what will you do with it?
09:31 AM enleth: but it's still in development
09:31 AM Loetmichel: hmm, how about using normal VFDs with vector control and feed the encoders directly to the mesa?
09:32 AM enleth: Loetmichel: I don't expect that to go well
09:32 AM Loetmichel: i have seen that being used as a "3 phase servo" a few times
09:32 AM Loetmichel: but i dont know how "safe" it is
09:33 AM enleth: AFAIK, VFDs are not designed to handle continuous DC output which is needed to hold an axis stationary
09:34 AM enleth: jdh: plasma cutting, milling large blocks of soft materials, hot wire cutting
09:35 AM enleth: jdh: and some teaching, normally the only way to learn how to operate one of those is to get enrolled at a university that has one
09:37 AM enleth: Loetmichel: anyway, that KRC1 still works and hopefully it'll stay that way until STMBL gets a public 5.x release, at which point I can start experimenting with a LinuxCNC retrofit
09:37 AM enleth: although it would be better to have a KRC2 anyway - I could just swap the fieldbus connection between a Mesa card and the original KUKA control
09:38 AM Loetmichel: enleth: "vector" capables VFDs can hold an axis stationary
09:38 AM Loetmichel: it slightly "sings" because the "DC" is made by PWM with no filters but it works
09:38 AM enleth: Loetmichel: ok, good to know
09:38 AM enleth: still, I'm not sure I want to try it
09:39 AM enleth: maybe not on a huge robot
09:39 AM Loetmichel: they can even hold an 3 phase induction motor stationary
09:39 AM Loetmichel: by actively compensating for "slip"
09:39 AM Loetmichel: indeed, that was my concern: how "safe" that is considering it is controlled by the mesa card
09:40 AM Loetmichel: so if the PC hangs all the axes go instant "limp"
09:40 AM enleth: Loetmichel: actually that's not a huge problem as long as the watchdog catches it quickly and resets outputs
09:40 AM enleth: the robot has mechanical brakes
09:40 AM Loetmichel: depending if the bot uses harmonic drives or something that can be turned from the back end....
09:41 AM enleth: so as long as the brake outputs revert to their default state on a hang, it can be wired to close the brakes
09:43 AM enleth: also, KUKA robots have a resolver interface in them that sends resolver position updates over a serial link, so making some sort of a high-level watchdog comparing the actual movement to what it should be would be feasible
09:43 AM enleth: if I understand correctly, KRCs do something like this
09:44 AM enleth: one of the DSPs is running safety routines that detect servo runaways, etc. and e-stop the whole thing if it goes bonkers
09:44 AM Loetmichel: yeah, then its pretty risk free
09:45 AM enleth: another thing I like about STMBL is the project's staunch refusal to implement an analog velocity interface
09:45 AM enleth: it's controlled with a fieldbus, so it's reasonably difficult to get a runaway due to simple electrical problems
09:45 AM * Loetmichel has seen the end stops of a linar moving 500kg rotary table impact on the other factory wall... just because i miscalculated the steps for 1000mm move by 50mm or so
09:46 AM Loetmichel: you get wary of the masses moving there after that ;)
09:46 AM enleth: I've heard of a CNC mill that threw its table off the saddle, through the wall over to the next room
09:47 AM Loetmichel: only a 3kw siemens servo though on that axis ,)
09:48 AM Loetmichel: i alread let that servo jump about knee height off its pallet when testing it after delivery
09:48 AM Loetmichel: (also used)
09:48 AM enleth: oh yes, jumping servos, did that too
09:48 AM enleth: I strap them to a pallet now when testing
09:48 AM Loetmichel: note to self: never command a 30kg servo to "just do ONE rotation at maximum speed" when the thing isnt securely bolted to something ;)
09:49 AM enleth: one of the things I made absolutely sure to check on my mill is whether the axis brakes can stop a table running at full speed into a limit switch before it hits/tears off the buffer on the end of the ballscrew
09:49 AM enleth: they can
09:50 AM Loetmichel: said shearing off of the "end stop buffers" and shooting them thru the hall was when i was setting up the soft limits
09:50 AM Loetmichel: i just miscalculated the steps/mm slightly and moved about 50mm to far
09:50 AM Loetmichel: at maximum speed ;)
09:51 AM Loetmichel: sheared off two M8 8.8 screws cleanly on each rails buffer
09:51 AM Loetmichel: and shot them ito the brick wall on the other side...
09:51 AM Loetmichel: inertia is scary ;)
09:51 AM Loetmichel: into
09:52 AM Loetmichel: mounted on that axis was a 500kg rotary magnet table and its drive
09:53 AM Loetmichel: it was to move said table out to be loaded and back under the grinding cup
09:55 AM Loetmichel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15LAwfJxmhU <- it was a machine like this but slightly bigger and the bot was on the left side, missing that wall with the green light
09:55 AM Loetmichel: actually that machine seems to look VERY similar to the one we retrofitted to CNC
10:00 AM enleth: ah, a blanchard
10:01 AM enleth: was there any damage other than sheared bolts and soiled underwear?
10:03 AM sync: enleth: I have not heard about me developing a >3kW power stage
10:04 AM enleth: sync: oh, ok. still, that's the best thing out there if I want open hardware
10:07 AM enleth: sync: I think I've read somewhere about plans to introduce three-phase input and get more output power by using the higher DC bus voltage
10:09 AM sync: you don't really get more output power
10:09 AM sync: just more speed
10:09 AM sync: (thus moar power, hurr) but eh
10:10 AM sync: yes, there are plans to build a 600V capable power stage but that is rather low key
10:10 AM enleth: is there anything that could be done to help with that?
10:21 AM sync: no, not really, I just need to get around doing it
10:37 AM enleth: sync: how about a donation to help cover the cost of prototyping PCBs and replacing blown transistors?
10:42 AM Joe_Hildreth: Hello all. I am trying to compile LinuxCNC 2.8 pre on Lubuntu 18.04. When I change to the debian directory and run the command ./configure uspace I get the following mesage:
10:43 AM Joe_Hildreth: Package libxenomai-dev exists, but information about its source package is not available. This most likely means that you do not have the right deb-src lines in /etc/apt, or that you need to "apt-get update".
10:43 AM Joe_Hildreth: Any ideas on this?
10:48 AM jthornton: Joe_Hildreth: did you do a fresh pull of master?
10:48 AM Joe_Hildreth: Yes sir.
10:49 AM jthornton: I have LinuxCNC running now on Lubuntu 18 with the 5.0.3-rt1 kernel
10:50 AM jthornton: did you select source files in the synaptic package manager?
10:50 AM jthornton: and by the way I'm getting a lower latency with lubuntu than debian did on the same pc
10:50 AM Joe_Hildreth: I have compiled it a few times. The 2.7 branch seems okay. I thought I would try the 2.8 pre. Running Lubuntu 18.04 with 4.19.37-rt19 kernel
10:51 AM Joe_Hildreth: Awesome. I think it is because the desktop requires a lot less resources to run. Thanks for testing it.
10:51 AM jthornton: looking for my notes now
10:53 AM jthornton: in debian/configure line 169 should be Ubuntu-18.*) # Bionic Beaver
10:53 AM Joe_Hildreth: Moved to src folder and ran ./configure --with-realtime=uspace --enable-build-documantation, other than missing a dependency, all seems good
10:53 AM Joe_Hildreth: OK, will change the line of code. BRB
10:54 AM jthornton: wait!
10:54 AM jthornton: if it's not there just do a git pull
10:55 AM jthornton: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/wRj5xM999s/
10:56 AM Joe_Hildreth: The line is there John.
10:57 AM jthornton: ok great
10:57 AM jthornton: the paste is my notes of the install
10:58 AM Joe_Hildreth: Got your notes. I will do a fresh pull and try from your notes. Be right back
10:58 AM jthornton: I'll try and get http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/uspace/index.html updated in the morning with step by step
10:58 AM jthornton: ok, I'll be in the new chicken coop
10:58 AM Joe_Hildreth: Awesome. Thank you.
10:58 AM jthornton: yw
11:01 AM Joe_Hildreth: Pulling the source now from git.
11:03 AM Joe_Hildreth: Worked correct that time. Not sure what was different for me. I did not have the source repository checked, but did have all the dependencies installed.
11:11 AM JT-Shop: great, you have to have source repository checked
11:41 AM Joe_Hildreth: Compiled just fine, only one failed test of the 227 tests run. Failed: /home/joeh/linuxcnc/tests/interp/oword-bug315-p2
11:49 AM pink_vampire: https://www.ebay.com/itm/201835669983
12:18 PM Tom_L: rain is back once again
12:50 PM CaptHindsight: high 70's one day, 40-50's the next, last week we had 40's in the am, 80 at 2pm, 50's at night
12:51 PM Tom_L: 50's here
02:05 PM Joe_Hildreth: jthornton: If running the debian configuration script ./configure uspace, I get a message about python command not found on line 75 and 76. Now this is a clean clone of Lubuntu 18. I am working through my notes. My question is, does python need to be installed before running the debian/configure script?
02:14 PM jthornton: I would not think so, did you do a minimal install?
02:20 PM jthornton: Joe_Hildreth: you still here?
02:28 PM Joe_Hildreth: Yes sir, stepped away
02:28 PM Joe_Hildreth: Yes, it is a minimal install. I keep a clone to do multiple tests.
02:29 PM jthornton: I just wanted to warn you about leafpad the default text editor is crap, edit a file on the lan and when you save it there is nothing there
02:30 PM Joe_Hildreth: I find using a virtual machine and doing an intial install then working with a clone covers most of my research needs. The video will be a minimal install with gtk-recordmydesktop when I make the vide.
02:30 PM Joe_Hildreth: Ahh, thanks for the warning. Will install nano.
02:30 PM jthornton: I'd recommend replacing leafpad with geany
02:30 PM jthornton: I think nano is there, I know vim is
02:31 PM Joe_Hildreth: Never used geany, will check it out.
02:31 PM jthornton: yea nano is there
02:31 PM Joe_Hildreth: It is there.
02:31 PM jthornton: sudo apt install geany
02:31 PM jthornton: sudo apt remove leafpad
02:32 PM Joe_Hildreth: Looks like geany supports some code coloring???
02:32 PM * jthornton heads back to the chicken coop
02:32 PM jthornton: I think it does
02:32 PM jthornton: I don't use it myself
02:32 PM jthornton: code coloring that is
02:33 PM Joe_Hildreth: You know me, I don't much at all. :-)
02:33 PM Joe_Hildreth: code that is.
02:34 PM Joe_Hildreth: I think it would be best to go ahead and install pythin with dpkg-dev, just to keep the questions down about the pythin warning. Any thoughts?
02:37 PM jthornton: it won't hurt a thing to do that, I'll probably start from scratch and verify my instructions are correct tomorrow
02:37 PM * Tom_L reads the story about Moah and the arc as he watches it pour down rain
02:37 PM jthornton: I didn't notice the warning but will look tomorrow
02:37 PM jthornton: sun shine here :)
02:39 PM Joe_Hildreth: You may have already had python installed on your machine? I like to start with a minimal install when I do these sorts of projects to prevent some of the problems new folks run into.
02:39 PM Joe_Hildreth: I say that, but I would think that a user would need to be fairly comfortable using the computer if they are going to compile a kernel or LCNC
02:39 PM Joe_Hildreth: Sunny and 78 in Middle Tennessee
02:43 PM Connor: Sunny and 82 here in East Tennessee.
02:48 PM Joe_Hildreth: Conner: you in the mountains?
03:04 PM Joe_Hildreth: jthornton: Just as an aside, when running dpkg-checkbuilddeps, I was not asked to install autoconf (but this may have been because it was installed when I compiled the kernel) otherwise, my list of dependent software was the same as yours, except I also required libglu1-mesa-dev libgl1-mesa-dev | libgl1-mesa-swx11-dev
03:36 PM Joe_Hildreth: jthornton: does LCNC ./configure --with-realtime=uspace support simulation, preempt_rt and xenomai
03:36 PM Joe_Hildreth: Or do you compile differently for xenomai?
03:43 PM * JT-Shop2 has never eaten xenomai, is that a chinese dish?
03:49 PM Joe_Hildreth: jthornton: If you compile --enable-build-documentation, you will also need: sudo apt install bwidget libtk-img tclx python-gtk2
03:49 PM Deejay: gn8
03:53 PM JT-Shop2: yea compiling for a RIP may have more depends
03:53 PM Joe_Hildreth: Joe_Hildreth wonders if Xenomai is good with hot sauce?
03:55 PM JT-Shop2: I think fish sauce is better
04:03 PM CaptHindsight: Xenomai no goodly with LCNC
04:04 PM roycroft: wow
04:04 PM andypugh: I thouhgt that Xenomi was supported?
04:04 PM CaptHindsight: only hacky sacky patchy for preempt_rt supportness
04:04 PM roycroft: a woodworking vendor i deal with are clearancing some 10" c-clamps for $7.99 each
04:04 PM roycroft: i don't have any 10", but sometimes my 6" aren't quite big enough
04:04 PM * roycroft just ordered a few
04:04 PM roycroft: $5 flat rate shipping per order, too
04:06 PM CaptHindsight: last I recall Jepler did a quick hack to get preempt_rt support for LCNC but left the door open for somebody else to make Xenomai work
04:06 PM XXCoder: nothing as perment as temp fix
04:07 PM CaptHindsight: I will use my gooder English from now on
04:07 PM CaptHindsight: Xenomai does use a separate micro kernel like RTAI
04:08 PM CaptHindsight: so speeds won't be much different from preempt_rt
04:08 PM CaptHindsight: sorry does NOT use
04:08 PM CaptHindsight: to be clear: Xenomai does NOT use a separate micro kernel like RTAI
04:10 PM andypugh: So, both Xenomai and RTAI do not use a separate micro-kernel?
04:10 PM andypugh: :-)
04:10 PM CaptHindsight: I niminate XXCoder to get off his duff and make a permanent patch for Xenomai
04:10 PM andypugh: Maybe you mean “Unlike RTAI, Xenomia does not use…."
04:11 PM XXCoder: lol
04:11 PM Joe_Hildreth: Well, I am just doing multiple compiles for my tutorial and to check my work. I have read somewhere that LCNC supports xenomai but the --with-relatime docs don't really discuss it.
04:11 PM Joe_Hildreth: hahah
04:13 PM CaptHindsight: I might have missed the memo about Xenomai support
04:13 PM CaptHindsight: I don't follow the dev tree that closely
04:14 PM CaptHindsight: I may have been belt sanding my nipples that day in order to avoid writing any code
04:14 PM andypugh: https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/search?q=xenomai&unscoped_q=xenomai
04:14 PM Joe_Hildreth: Well, if it is any consolation, I am restricting the tutorial to 2.8 pre, 2.7, running in uspace or creating debs with optional docs.
04:16 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: indexed last in 2018, does that mean it hasn't been changed since then?
04:16 PM CaptHindsight: " Showing the top two matches Last indexed on Jun 26, 2018 "
04:17 PM andypugh: that would seeem odd
04:18 PM mozmck: I believe xenomai does still have a separate microkernel
04:18 PM Joe_Hildreth: Question: If you compile LCNC --with-realtime=uspace and are compiling on vanilla kernel to make a simulator, does the make setuid command still need to be run since it isn't driving hardware, or is the simulator only restricted from realtime access?
04:19 PM andypugh: Good question
04:20 PM Joe_Hildreth: I guess the question would be, does the simulator have access to any hardware? Could you use the simulator for non-critical stuff, pendent, or some other hardware?
04:20 PM Joe_Hildreth: If this is the case, I am guessing that you would still have to setuid
04:21 PM andypugh: Try it?
04:21 PM mozmck: CaptHindsight: https://www.xenomai.org/pipermail/xenomai/2019-May/040931.html
04:22 PM CaptHindsight: mozmck: the older version does, they announced a couple of years ago that they were basically going the preempt_rt direction
04:22 PM mozmck: The microkernel is called Cobalt, and it apparently still gives a good bit better performance than preempt-rt
04:22 PM Joe_Hildreth: The command only touches two files ... /bin/rtapi_app and /bin/linuxcnc_module_helper
04:22 PM mozmck: CaptHindsight: I thought so too, but that does not seem to be what has happened.
04:22 PM CaptHindsight: maybe they changed their minds
04:23 PM Joe_Hildreth: I don't know enough to understand what these two files do. :-(
04:23 PM CaptHindsight: what bunch of flakes :)
04:23 PM mozmck: hah! at least they flaked the right way...
04:23 PM JT-Shop: andypugh: I think I got wlo figured out this morning
04:24 PM mozmck: CaptHindsight: they have some new thing called Dovetail: https://gitlab.denx.de/Xenomai/xenomai/wikis/Dovetail
04:25 PM CaptHindsight: no hard feeling but i hope they rot in hell for copying NTULinux's RTAI work and not giving him credit
04:25 PM mozmck: https://evenless.org/dovetail/
04:25 PM mozmck: Didn't know the Xenomai folks had anything to do with that.
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, those copycats rip stuff from others all the time and don't even thank the writers
04:29 PM CaptHindsight: https://github.com/NTULINUX/RTAI
04:29 PM CaptHindsight: one more reason he just got fed up with working with these jerks
04:34 PM CaptHindsight: denx.de these guys have some real issues
04:35 PM CaptHindsight: they do work on u-boot and all but talk about control freaks
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: we tried to work with them 20+ years ago to merge efforts on (LinuxBIOS) Coreboot and u-boot
04:37 PM CaptHindsight: went kind of like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSGkBWYDmrM
04:39 PM DaViruz: on second thought, let's not go to camelot
04:46 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.pocketnc.com/pocket-nc-v250/pocket-nc-v2-50-pre-orders now with air powered spindle?
04:47 PM andypugh: Apparently
04:48 PM CaptHindsight: didn't the first rev use a stepper motor for the spindle?
04:48 PM andypugh: A little more than I want to spend on a toy. (not that it is inherently a toy, all my tools are toys)
04:49 PM CaptHindsight: someone just asked about a non-toy version of this
04:49 PM CaptHindsight: earlier version: Spindle Motor: BLDC 3 Phase with Hall Feedback
04:50 PM CaptHindsight: Power Output: 200 Watts
04:50 PM andypugh: Seems adequate for the size of cutter it handles.
04:51 PM CaptHindsight: i forget what it issues were besides lack of open 5axis cam
04:51 PM CaptHindsight: not as rigid as planned or similar
04:52 PM CaptHindsight: might have been just users wanting to cut steel vs aluminum or softer
05:20 PM gregcnc: "gallon of air"
05:22 PM CaptHindsight: what's heavier a gallon of air at sea level or at 30 psi?
05:22 PM CaptHindsight: one might also ask, gallon of air before or after compression?
05:23 PM syyl: sorry, my air only comes in metric volumina ;)
05:23 PM CaptHindsight: i gallon of air is ~ 4 Liters :)
05:26 PM CaptHindsight: 1 cubic foot/minute (CFM) so if you only had air in a 30 cubic foot bottle, you could only run the spindle for 30 minutes (metric or imerial minutes)
05:27 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.techdivinglimited.com/Luxfer-30-Cubic-Foot-Aluminum-Tank-p/tl-30.htm
05:27 PM andypugh: I got into a debate on a cycling youtube video about whether carrying water bottles full of helium would help.
05:28 PM andypugh: Many correctly thought not, bot those same people were confused by the fact that filling the tyres with helium _would_ help. (by about 16g)
05:29 PM CaptHindsight: more lighter vs greater surface area and possible wind resistance
05:30 PM CaptHindsight: helium filled frame and rider
05:31 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.recumbent-gallery.eu/high-speed-bike-from-delft-netherlands/
05:31 PM CaptHindsight: say you chose this for the bicycle
05:32 PM CaptHindsight: how much and where could you place the helium to provide an advantage?
05:33 PM CaptHindsight: with video https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-24133410/dutch-cyclist-claims-new-world-speed-record-in-nevada
05:34 PM andypugh: Helium only helps if you replace air that already exists with it.
05:34 PM andypugh: ANd even then it only really helps uphil.
05:34 PM CaptHindsight: air vs helium with membrane to hold it
05:35 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.bbc.com/news/av/technology-24031974/how-does-the-beastie-cycle-work next video in the cue, interesting
05:39 PM Elmo40: https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0775cm8/inside-the-most-polluted-city-in-the-world
05:40 PM Elmo40: this one is interesting. we live in an age where pollution is easily controlled yet this still occurs.
05:41 PM CaptHindsight: hey be my guest if you want to pay for it :)
05:41 PM CaptHindsight: that is the response by the asshats that run things
05:47 PM cradek: each of those diesel tuktuks is probably as dirty as 100 diesel cars
05:48 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: Graham Obree is an interesting chap
05:52 PM cradek: although they can carry a dozen schoolkids and in the US we'd use a dozen SUVs to transport them :-/
05:55 PM andypugh: I am getting very bored of calibrating this wossname.
05:56 PM andypugh: (move the servo 10 degrees by serial command, start a new measurement, wait 5 minutes to get hogh quality stats, repeat)
05:56 PM andypugh: 5 joints, at least 270 degrees each
05:58 PM andypugh: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dcFYJLM3XQFSyV5v7
06:00 PM Tom_L: hooked to an avr?
06:01 PM andypugh: Adafruit ItsyBitsy M4
06:01 PM andypugh: (100x the memory, 10x the CPU, much the same proce, works with the same IDE)
06:08 PM andypugh: In other news, the hex-expander is done, and works.
06:10 PM andypugh: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZGLTPXAm48ShAyKp7
06:11 PM andypugh: https://photos.app.goo.gl/aDcCu89yUGirPmGZ6
06:24 PM Tom_L: nice
06:25 PM andypugh: I am not making another. If he wants any more he can ask a professional. Now that I have proved that it can be done :-)
06:25 PM Tom_L: hah
06:25 PM Tom_L: but now you know how
06:28 PM Tom_L: is the ID round or hex?
06:30 PM jthornton: what material are you expanding and why a hex?
06:40 PM andypugh: thin-wall hexagonal aluminium tube. (4mm AF / 0.2mm wall thickness)
06:41 PM jthornton: swaging it for a boiler or something?
06:41 PM andypugh: Something like this: http://www.coolexperts.co.uk/motor-vehicle/recores/vintage-honeycomb-cores/
06:42 PM jthornton: cool
06:42 PM jthornton: swage the end out so the air can pass between them?
06:43 PM andypugh: The swaging make the water-space
06:44 PM jthornton: ah just the opposite that I imagined
06:46 PM andypugh: Anyway, calibration finished. I have moved the huge servo from the front room now, so feel that I can accept visitors again.
06:46 PM jthornton: nice
06:46 PM andypugh: And time to sleep, I think.
06:47 PM jthornton: goodnight
08:45 PM norias: so...
08:45 PM norias: tormach is running linuxcnc now?
09:06 PM sync: "now"?
09:07 PM norias: apparently since pathpilot?
09:07 PM norias: i just didn't realize
10:14 PM CaptHindsight: which 4K monitor is everyone using for the LCNC GUI?
10:14 PM Wolf__: 65” samsung q8 imo
10:15 PM CaptHindsight: been looking at 4K projectors so i can have AXIS on the wall at 18 x 10ft (6 x 3m)
10:15 PM Wolf__: lol
10:16 PM CaptHindsight: was looking at 4k monitors and projectors today
10:16 PM CaptHindsight: prices have really come down
10:16 PM CaptHindsight: 50" 4k TV's for $200-300
10:17 PM Wolf__: yeah, I have been shopping TV’s to replace a >10yr old 52” samsung, which is 1080p/120hz and was +$2000 when new lol
10:18 PM CaptHindsight: I have an LG with built in DVR that is on its last legs, was ~$2500 new
10:18 PM CaptHindsight: 40 something inches and obly 720p
10:19 PM CaptHindsight: and the cheapskates used cheap caps, i have replaced 1/2 of them so far to keep it alive
10:20 PM Wolf__: now I just need to figure out why samsung has 4k 65” that price from $600 up to over $3k
10:25 PM Wolf__: I think cheap caps are a standard feature in most all tvs now
10:29 PM CaptHindsight: well otherwise they would last too long
10:29 PM CaptHindsight: no more tubes to wear out
10:30 PM CaptHindsight: so you run the power supply on the warm side to keep mortality in check
10:30 PM CaptHindsight: cheap caps
10:31 PM CaptHindsight: fragile plastics for the enclosure so those kids can go for a mortal blow more easily
10:31 PM CaptHindsight: make sure dust clogs the airflow for cooling
10:32 PM CaptHindsight: i kept a broadcom sat receiver going for years by just opening the case and adding a fan
10:33 PM CaptHindsight: same with the playstations, i had original units going for years without issues by just keeping them properly cooled
10:33 PM Wolf__: oddly both tvs I’m looking at replacing are well over 10yrs old and both are working fine, only looking to replace them for better tech (smart tv + lower power usage)
10:33 PM CaptHindsight: the sat receiver broadcomm chips had no heatsinks, I measures the case at ~100C when operated at 30C room temp
10:34 PM Wolf__: lol sounds like a great design
10:34 PM CaptHindsight: i don't connect mine to the intertubes
10:34 PM CaptHindsight: over the air antennas or to a PC
10:35 PM Wolf__: my house has 0 ota reception
10:35 PM Jymmm: I just stream everything
10:36 PM CaptHindsight: i don't disclose the sources of my viewing materials :)
10:37 PM Wolf__: same here, stream everything, have comcast at my house but only have basic nothing service because the package that I wont upgrade cost less then internet only service lol
10:39 PM Jymmm: CaptHindsight: Just as long as you use a private tracker, I don't care
10:40 PM Wolf__: I wouldnt mind finding a new private tracker to use lol
10:40 PM CaptHindsight: the finest source materials that Latvia can supply