#linuxcnc Logs
Apr 03 2019
#linuxcnc Calendar
02:16 AM Deejay: moin
03:10 AM pink_vampire: selroc: you came with high expectations
03:12 AM selroc: hello, whatsup :-)
03:13 AM pink_vampire: I'm fine just finished drill and tap 3 motor drivers
03:14 AM pink_vampire: I"m trying to make v plotter bipod
03:14 AM selroc: how do you know that I have high expectations ?
03:14 AM pink_vampire: you asked for the log
03:15 AM pink_vampire: and it was empty other then Deejay "moin"
03:16 AM Deejay: hi everybody :)
03:16 AM pink_vampire: hi Deejay
03:21 AM selroc: lol, I have looked back in previous days also
03:24 AM pink_vampire: OK OK..
03:27 AM selroc: delirium https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-yne8xTNM0
03:30 AM pink_vampire: selroc: yes, i need more money
03:37 AM selroc: I couldn't help, I am in need of money too
04:42 AM XXCoder: fancy lol http://woodgears.ca/misc/april_2019.html
04:54 AM jthornton: morning
04:54 AM XXCoder: morning
04:55 AM pink_vampire: hi XXCoder & jthornton
04:56 AM XXCoder: I loved this one, and wow its been 7 years already http://woodgears.ca/misc/april_fools.html
05:15 AM pink_vampire: one more driver mount got printed!
05:18 AM XXCoder: :)
05:21 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/9gmUUYg.png
05:21 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/TctUEHH.png
05:21 AM XXCoder: nice
05:21 AM pink_vampire: my design
05:24 AM Tom_L: morning
05:41 AM XXCoder: LOL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvwq7YqDJiw
05:57 AM pink_vampire: i'm getting close to the end of the pink roll
06:11 AM Loetmichel: pink_vampire: get a dual extruder an feed it a red and a white roll ;)
06:14 AM XXCoder: bonus: lasts twice as long with twice the reels
06:20 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/b2MthsV.png
06:34 AM Loetmichel: XXCoder: and gives a nice "marble" effect
06:35 AM Loetmichel: pink_vampire: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16238&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
06:37 AM Loetmichel: found that on my "for the scrapyeard" pile
06:37 AM Loetmichel: no idea when the display broke off or where it went
06:38 AM Loetmichel: but that thing still runs regardless ;)
06:38 AM pink_vampire: awwwwwwwwwwwwww
06:38 AM Loetmichel: (win95)
06:38 AM pink_vampire: mine is win3.11
06:38 AM Loetmichel: ahem, even 98
06:39 AM Loetmichel: hows that? http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15898&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
06:39 AM pink_vampire: AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
06:40 AM pink_vampire: this is cute!!
06:41 AM pink_vampire: Loetmichel: what windows version is that?
06:41 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15895&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- dos 3.3
06:41 AM Loetmichel: that was the bios ;)
06:41 AM Loetmichel: the other pic
06:42 AM Loetmichel: notebook has some backlight issues
06:42 AM Loetmichel: not that surprising considering the age
06:43 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8770&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- less blurry picture
06:43 AM Loetmichel: couldnt find the power brick though and the battery is dead so i hat to power it with a lab PSU
06:44 AM pink_vampire: yeah it is a problem
06:44 AM Loetmichel: it actually runs for a few minutes on battery now
06:44 AM Loetmichel: after some charging/discarging on an external charger
06:45 AM Loetmichel: Nicd batteries are indestructible ;)
06:45 AM Loetmichel: the pack just was TOTALLY flat
06:46 AM pink_vampire: you can very easy replace them
06:50 AM Loetmichel: i know and i did ;)
06:51 AM jdh: replace then with real batteries
09:39 AM Rab: Loetmichel, that's a great old Thinkpad. I've seen NiCd batteries spill their guts and destroy a lot of nice things, however...best to clip them out.
09:54 AM beachbumpete1: Hey folks howzitgoin?
09:57 AM methods_: wud up pete
09:57 AM beachbumpete1: Hey man good to hear from you.
09:58 AM beachbumpete1: over here breakin' rocks
09:58 AM methods_: me too
09:58 AM beachbumpete1: hehe
09:58 AM methods_: nm i lie i'm slackin like usual lol
09:58 AM beachbumpete1: yeah me too
09:58 AM beachbumpete1: doing some design work on a trophy room for a professional golfer
09:59 AM methods_: tryin to find a 16ch ip camera system for our paint powdercoat shop
09:59 AM beachbumpete1: ah
09:59 AM beachbumpete1: I need to find a local powdercoater
10:00 AM beachbumpete1: we have been designing some heavy duty pocket door frames for some high end homes in Palm Beach what a pain in the ass
10:01 AM beachbumpete1: I never realized how many different kinds of pocket door frames there can be in a single house
10:04 AM methods_: yeah pocket doors suck
10:04 AM methods_: there's always something that doesn't line up right
10:04 AM beachbumpete1: yeah they do...
10:05 AM beachbumpete1: to make it even more difficult these doors have an applied molding that allows a custom hardware to go into the pocket so when the door is closed or fully open it will look correct. that makes things much more complicated.
10:05 AM beachbumpete1: plus now every pocket door they want need to be soft close and open and the double doors need to be synchronous so they both open and close at the same time...
10:06 AM beachbumpete1: that and some doors have an applied stop some do not, some use a different hardware than others and some are taller than others so basically every damn one for the most part is unique
10:07 AM beachbumpete1: at least we can design them and cut them on the CNC for the panels then putting them together is much faster anyway
10:11 AM beachbumpete1: https://i.imgur.com/LlF6Qmm.jpg pretty cool job I cut on the router the other day...
10:13 AM Rab: beachbumpete1, interesting. Is that a commercial sign?
10:20 AM beachbumpete1: Rab actually no
10:20 AM beachbumpete1: believe it or not
10:20 AM beachbumpete1: that is one side of a custom bending form to create a radiused transom
10:20 AM beachbumpete1: you can see the two arcs
10:21 AM beachbumpete1: and the slots are to place plywood strips in to space the two plates apart
10:21 AM beachbumpete1: then there are angled cuts around the edges that will be where you place the clamps when you glue up the parts
10:23 AM beachbumpete1: basically you create thin strips of material and glue them up like a sandwich with multiple layers then stick it between these two curves and then clamp across the whole thing to force the sandwich to bend to that curvature
10:24 AM beachbumpete1: does that make sense?
10:25 AM beachbumpete1: we have to make a bunch of these arc'd pieces so I machined like four of the same forms so we can have four going at the same time
10:51 AM jdh: are they paying for this?
10:57 AM beachbumpete1: jdh of course
10:59 AM jdh: paid well I hope.
10:59 AM beachbumpete1: well they don't live on Palm Beach Island for nothing ;)
10:59 AM jdh: that looks like aomething where you end up doing 3 peoples jobs
11:00 AM beachbumpete1: actually those forms were very easy to design and machine
11:00 AM beachbumpete1: took me like maybe 45 minutes on the PC and then maybe a mornings running the CNC
11:00 AM jdh: or did you just make it look easy
11:00 AM beachbumpete1: not sure what you mean about 3 peoples jobs?
11:01 AM jdh: designer, programmer, operator, builder, installer
11:01 AM beachbumpete1: ah
11:01 AM beachbumpete1: well I designed them
11:01 AM beachbumpete1: programmed them
11:01 AM beachbumpete1: operated the CNC
11:02 AM beachbumpete1: but someone else assembled the frames and they are gluing up the parts now
11:02 AM Loetmichel: Rab: already new niCd cells in
11:02 AM Jymmm: NiCd... EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
11:03 AM beachbumpete1: I drew the design in autocad 2d then took it into fusion360 and extruded the shapes and did the cam work
11:03 AM jdh: 2019 and NiCd
11:04 AM beachbumpete1: I have found that one nice thing with fusion 360 is that once you have a plywood cut program that works it is really easy to just copy and paste the previously successful operations into the new model program and then just select the correct geometry
11:04 AM beachbumpete1: run the simulation to make sure it is right then send it
11:05 AM jdh: nice looking router
11:06 AM Loetmichel: jdh: its a 1994 notebook.
11:06 AM Jymmm: Loetmichel: ...running CP/M ?
11:06 AM beachbumpete1: Thanks this is a CR ONsrud 5x12
11:06 AM beachbumpete1: honestly this is the second CNC router commercial router I have run and it is quite nice
11:06 AM beachbumpete1: it is not new we bought it used
11:07 AM beachbumpete1: but it seems to be working very well.
11:07 AM jdh: make some boats with it
11:07 AM Loetmichel: dos 3.3
11:07 AM Loetmichel: ;)
11:07 AM beachbumpete1: hehe I am working on a custom studio desk for myself to cut on it LOL
11:09 AM Loetmichel: jdh: whats IMHO more impressive is my thinkpad 600E (1999)... that still runs a recent xubuntu despite being close to 20 years old
11:10 AM Loetmichel: not really fast though, and youtube is more of a slideshow because of a missing gpu driver (framebuffer-xserver), but for working and non-video surfing it works still great :-)
11:10 AM jdh: what is the incentive to do so?
11:10 AM Loetmichel: Jymmm, too
11:10 AM Loetmichel: i wanted to see if its possible to get a modern OS running on that thing
11:11 AM jdh: considering my last two pdp11's went away last month
11:11 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15999&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
11:12 AM Loetmichel: granted, without the IDE ssd i put in there it was VERY slow... swapping on an SSD helps a LOT when you have only 539 mb ram ;)
11:13 AM Loetmichel: even libreooffice works reasonably well
11:13 AM Loetmichel: takes a moment to load but is then sufficently performant
11:15 AM Loetmichel: pretty surprising considering it has a mobile Pentium2-366 ;)
11:31 AM Jymmm: Loetmichel: ???
11:35 AM Rab: beachbumpete1, sounds like an awesome project, I'd like to see the result.
11:45 AM Tom_L: hey beachbumpete1
12:04 PM beachbumpete1: Hey TomL
12:05 PM beachbumpete1: had to run out and pick up my sammich
12:05 PM beachbumpete1: Rab yeah man its actually not that big a deal but it was an interesting looking piece on the router table ;)
12:06 PM Tom_L: ok, in mate on stretch how can i get it to save the desktop so i don't have to re'open everything next boot?
12:10 PM beachbumpete1: Tom_L: not sure what you are asking
12:10 PM Tom_L: save the session for next time
12:10 PM Tom_L: all the open tabs will be open next boot
12:11 PM beachbumpete1: do you mean in Chrome or what?
12:12 PM Tom_L: no, the desktop
12:13 PM beachbumpete1: ah I don't use debian sorry I don't know how to help you
12:14 PM Tom_L: my mill pc does that but i don't remember what desktop i'm using out there
12:15 PM beachbumpete1: I am going to pickup a new/used desktop after work today
12:15 PM Jymmm: Tom_L: google debian save desktop, it's a one liner but thats how I found it
12:15 PM Tom_L: i was googling but maybe not the right term
12:17 PM Jymmm: Tom_L: MAybe this... https://www.howtogeek.com/203952/how-to-automatically-remember-running-applications-from-your-last-session-in-ubuntu-14.04/
12:18 PM beachbumpete1: been getting spoiled with this dual monitor fast I7 here at work and thinking I need the same at home. I need to find a good deal on some nice 24 inch or larger monitors
12:18 PM fragalot: 'sup
12:18 PM beachbumpete1: hey frag
12:19 PM Tom_L: beachbumpete1, my i5 pc is faster than my i7 :)
12:19 PM beachbumpete1: I know it depends on the series huh
12:19 PM beachbumpete1: I have heard people say that their I3 is faster than their I7 before
12:19 PM beachbumpete1: plus ram. ssd etc
12:19 PM fragalot: the series makes a lot of difference
12:20 PM fragalot: they hop from lower power to higher performance & back to lower power
12:20 PM beachbumpete1: I am just buying a cheaper used one here nothing crazy
12:20 PM beachbumpete1: its an i7 4970 or something like that
12:20 PM beachbumpete1: 16 gigs ram 256 sdd 1tb hdd
12:21 PM beachbumpete1: we actually have two design computers setup here in our office and one is an i5 and the other is an I7 and I honestly cannot tell the difference
12:21 PM fragalot: the main difference there is that the i7 is better at multitasking than the i5
12:21 PM beachbumpete1: my laptop is an i5
12:22 PM fragalot: so if you only use one application that is not optimized for multithreading.. you won't notice
12:22 PM beachbumpete1: this one will be used mostly for my music software reaper and the various stl's I have and also fusion360 and other design cad cam softwares.
12:22 PM beachbumpete1: no gaming or whatnot
12:23 PM beachbumpete1: should be more than adequate I hope
12:24 PM Tom_L: beachbumpete1 doin anything on your mill nowdays?
12:24 PM beachbumpete1: yeah man always making my rails and selling them.
12:24 PM Tom_L: nice
12:25 PM beachbumpete1: made a bunch of stainless parts for a side job for my company I work for recently
12:25 PM beachbumpete1: STILL have not finished my damn CNC lathe
12:25 PM Tom_L: did you use hss or carbide on it?
12:25 PM beachbumpete1: sickens me to see it there
12:25 PM beachbumpete1: both reallly
12:25 PM beachbumpete1: mostly carbide from Maritool
12:26 PM beachbumpete1: I tooled up our HAAS Vf4 here at work with most of the same stuff and it is working well for us
12:28 PM Tom_L: 3 or more axis?
12:29 PM Tom_L: they have a cradle on some of them at the vo'tech here
12:34 PM beachbumpete1: this is just 3 axis with prewire 4th
12:34 PM beachbumpete1: we are just getting going with the metal stuff but we are mostly a wood shop.
12:34 PM Tom_L: yeah you probalby don't need more than 3 for what you do
12:34 PM beachbumpete1: Just finished machining some custom stainless mirrors that got brush finished
12:35 PM beachbumpete1: we are getting into a lot of complex stuff but just not 4th axis stuff so far.
12:35 PM beachbumpete1: that machine sure is nice tho with the larger table. Makes my Arrow seem quite small
12:59 PM Loetmichel: haaach, nice. just had an 1.5 hour telephone call with an external coworker after work. He just wanted to tell the name of the SF series he couldnt remember today in the 4 hour "work" phone call (where we spoke about 20 min about work and then drifted off to other topics... Then we drifted off to topics like "philosophy of startrek" and "griefers in video games" to "why a mandatory military
12:59 PM Loetmichel: service is good to widening your horizon by putting you into an enclosed space with others that are from different parts of the populace". Its SO nice to have someone that can continue your sentences before you do. (if it works both ways.)... Also those 20min at work we talked about the project were more fruitful than some meetings i had with boss or coworkers.
01:01 PM Tom_L: so you're not bustin your chops today ehh?
01:02 PM Loetmichel: ?
01:02 PM Tom_L: overworked
01:02 PM Loetmichel: actually i am pretty behind with my work
01:02 PM Loetmichel: but sometimes you simply need some distraction
01:02 PM fragalot: that's what you get for taking time off
01:02 PM Tom_L: hazzy-m around?
01:02 PM fragalot: :P
01:03 PM hazzy-m: yes
01:03 PM Loetmichel: fragalot: time off? whats that?
01:04 PM Tom_L: hazzy-m, do have a clue why i'm getting errors on the sample gcode when simulated
01:04 PM Loetmichel: i still have 26 days of LAST years holidays
01:04 PM Loetmichel: cant take them because of so much late projects
01:05 PM hazzy-m: Tom_L: what are the errors?
01:05 PM Tom_L: a couple errors flash by but the last one is 'invalid params in linear command
01:05 PM Loetmichel: i am pretty much beyond the point of burnout now... only thing that keeps me going is the hope that when i finally finish the last two pojects that are overdue i will take 2-4 weeks off.
01:05 PM Tom_L: oh
01:05 PM Tom_L: linear move would exceed z's positive limit
01:06 PM Tom_L: but it's a sim :(
01:06 PM fragalot: Tom_L: well yeah
01:06 PM fragalot: that's what a sim is for
01:07 PM fragalot: find out oyu have mistakes like that BEFORE you start cutting
01:07 PM Tom_L: wasn't gonna cut anything
01:07 PM Tom_L: just playing with qtpyvcp
01:17 PM hazzy-m: Tom_L: the sim machines still have hard and soft limits like a real machine
02:29 PM jdh: plant maint. shutdown next 2 weeks. no production hassles!
02:29 PM fragalot: :o
02:58 PM Tom_L: hazzy-m, yeah i know
02:59 PM Tom_L: i figured his demos would have taken care of that though
03:30 PM Lcvette: Just not inside and set a g54 offset just like a real machine
03:30 PM Lcvette: Not=jog
03:30 PM Lcvette: Lol
03:31 PM Lcvette: Or mdi
03:31 PM Lcvette: G0 x4 y2 z-6
03:32 PM Lcvette: Zero each axis, then run again, should be good to go
03:39 PM Tom_L: not that far into the demo yet
03:41 PM Tom_L: it's all good.. just wasn't expecting it
03:42 PM HSD: speaking of G54.... Is there any difference on linuxcnc between G53 and G28?
03:42 PM Tom_L: probably some suttle difference (without looking)
03:43 PM HSD: The reason I ask, is because I've got issues with gcode created with fusion 360.
03:43 PM Tom_L: i think G53 just cancels work offsets
03:44 PM Tom_L: so your code would begin at machine zero
03:44 PM HSD: It always adds: G53 G0 Z0. If I use stock bottom as my Z0, it plunges into my stock when it first runs.
03:44 PM Tom_L: i haven't tested that but that's what i think
03:44 PM HSD: cancels work offsets? Ok.
03:44 PM Tom_L: pretty sure
03:44 PM Tom_L: G53 must be on every line too
03:45 PM HSD: thought it has something to do with machine home vs home set
03:45 PM HSD: it isn't
03:45 PM Tom_L: i always use G54 work offsets so i'm not sure what happens
03:45 PM Tom_L: For example G53 G0 X0 Y0 Z0 will move the axes to the home position even if the currently selected coordinate system has offsets in effect.
03:46 PM Tom_L: so it would take you to your limits
03:46 PM HSD: can I set G53 home in the settings/firmware?
03:46 PM Tom_L: preferrably Z by itself or bad things happen
03:46 PM HSD: I use G54 after I select tool
03:47 PM Tom_L: you can use soft limits if you don't have switches
03:47 PM HSD: but... G53 plunges the tool into the stock before it changes to G54.
03:47 PM Tom_L: yeah
03:47 PM Tom_L: it probably would
03:48 PM HSD: hmm. ok. wonder why it's set in every post process for fusion 360's linuxcnc process
03:49 PM HSD: I've forgotten to remove that line a few times and I've messed up several projects. :(
04:19 PM Deejay: gn8
04:19 PM JT-Shop: HSD: g53 is the point where you home the axes
04:20 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L: no, G53 means move in machine coordinates
04:21 PM JT-Shop: HSD: your Z is homed backwards if Z0 is not at the top of travel
04:37 PM HSD: ok. But then I'd have to set some offset to where the stock is?
04:39 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop gettin the thread macro figured out?
04:42 PM JT-Shop: yea, I have it figured out in my head so that's half the battle lol
04:43 PM JT-Shop: HSD: yes you need to set work offsets
04:43 PM JT-Shop: http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/g-code/index.html
04:44 PM JT-Shop: Tom_L: just got done with a wrestling match with pyqt database handlers lol
04:45 PM Tom_L: database handlers?
04:45 PM Jymmm: Lathe friction welding (crosscut view near the end) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gahrN1tNDkM
04:47 PM Tom_L: shame he didn't have a pool of cutting oil in the bottom of the lathe bed
04:49 PM JT-Shop: yea qt has it's own database tools to query and pass data around
04:50 PM Tom_L: got the environment installed last night
04:50 PM Tom_L: finally found all the widgets etc
04:50 PM HSD: JT-Shop, checking. thx
04:51 PM gregerabc: Hello. I'm having trouble getting the analogue output on a 7i65 to give any output. Everything else works, and the watchdog has not bit according to halmeter. I'm using the mesa_7i65 hal component.
04:52 PM _unreal_: /join #zipit
04:53 PM _unreal_: ?
04:53 PM _unreal_: wtf?
05:36 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, lemme know if you figure out even load passes.. i may try that on mine some time
05:37 PM Tom_L: it's a little limited what i can do with it
05:52 PM jthornton: Tom_L: I mostly have that figured out, just need to get 2 pass and 3 pass, I have 4 pass now
06:15 PM andypugh: pink_vampire: Did you get the Bipod going?
06:17 PM _unreal_: I want to see an unopod
06:19 PM andypugh: There are lots of single-axis CNC machines around. Tensile testing, wire cutting, a seat-belt tester I once made…
06:20 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop i divided that up by user input
06:47 PM jthornton: Tom_L: 4 pass is like 40%, 27%, 20%, 17%
06:55 PM Tom_L: yeah
06:59 PM Tom_L: i'm not sure you would ever use 4 passes though
07:07 PM Loetmichel: hmm, i am just binging lucifer and noticed something. Do americans REALLY use a german word for "defective/damaged/destroyed" in daily speech?
07:08 PM andypugh: kaputt?
07:09 PM Loetmichel: ah, the word i mean is "kaputt" ;)
07:09 PM andypugh: In that case, yes, it is in fairly widespread use.
07:09 PM andypugh: (In the UK at least)
07:10 PM Loetmichel: interesting
07:11 PM andypugh: What amuses me is the German word “Handy”
07:11 PM andypugh: To mean a mobile phone. They have adopted an English word, but one that was never used to mean a phone in the UK or USA.
07:12 PM Loetmichel: yes
07:12 PM Loetmichel: it comes in handy sometimes though.
07:12 PM Tom_L: handy dandy
07:13 PM Loetmichel: okok, $5 in the "bad pun" box
07:32 PM Tom_L: jthornton, where did you arrive at those percentages?
07:32 PM Tom_L: wag or other?
07:33 PM Tom_L: oh wait.. you had a spreadsheet for those didn't you?
07:34 PM Tom_L: i saved that but can't get to it right now
09:26 PM skunkworks: https://youtu.be/QY_vmW1djao
09:29 PM jdh: no sound. is that a gear tooth sensor or something else?
09:36 PM skunkworks: allegro gear tooth sensor
09:41 PM Tom_L: is that the little mill you've been working on?
09:42 PM Jymmm: Tom_L: Anything under 4 tons is a "little" mill to skunkworks ;)
09:42 PM Tom_L: good point.
09:42 PM skunkworks: yes :)
09:44 PM Tom_L: is that a gopro or phone?
09:51 PM skunkworks: phone. I have not put much effort into video taking/editing yet...
09:55 PM skunkworks: as you can tell... ;)
09:59 PM norias: what's this adaptive feed?
09:59 PM norias: it slows the feed with spindle load?
09:59 PM Tom_L: yes
09:59 PM norias: huh.
10:00 PM norias: i'm not sure how i feel about that.
10:00 PM Tom_L: might save a spindle motor
10:00 PM skunkworks: well - adaptive feed is just a way to control the percent of feed rate in realtime...
10:00 PM Tom_L: might slow your production down
10:01 PM Tom_L: i suppose modern commercial controls have it now
10:02 PM Tom_L: i doubt any of the iron showing up in here does
10:02 PM Tom_L: until it's been skunkified
10:03 PM skunkworks: heh
10:03 PM norias: skunked
10:12 PM skunkworks: You can hook adaptive feed to anything... In the video I made - I hooked it to the output of a pid comparing spindle power to a setpoint..
10:12 PM skunkworks: In another video - I hooked it to the output of an encoder to run forward and backwards through a gcode program
10:33 PM skunkworks: wow - that is pretty close to perfect quadature...
10:35 PM skunkworks: I cad'ed up the gear teeth locations.. Then figured out that I used a 38 tooth gear instead of a 36 tooth gear in the drawing.. So I calculted I needed to move one of the sensor by .038" - a little elbow grease and a small file...