#linuxcnc Logs

Mar 27 2019

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:24 AM * Jymmm looks at pink_vampire and rolls his eyes
01:28 AM pink_vampire: why?
01:28 AM Jymmm: pink_vampire: lips and hearts
01:28 AM Jymmm: pink_vampire: What, no bunnies and duckies???
01:28 AM pink_vampire: yeah
01:28 AM Jymmm: pink_vampire: You are such a girl! chuckling
01:28 AM pink_vampire: mmm ok
01:41 AM Jymmm: nice, how big is your reef tank?
01:41 AM pink_vampire: it is not a reef
01:42 AM pink_vampire: it is a nano planted tank 5 gal
01:47 AM Jymmm: fresh water shrimp?
01:48 AM pink_vampire: yes
01:48 AM pink_vampire: neocaridina shrimp
03:05 AM Loetmichel: mornin'
03:24 AM Deejay: moin
04:17 AM XXCoder: pink_vampire: thqt print seems a big jump up in quality. nice
04:41 AM pink_vampire: XXCoder: thanks!
04:44 AM XXCoder: hows milling
04:49 AM pink_vampire: I've used the mill as cmm
04:49 AM pink_vampire: XXCoder: ^
04:50 AM XXCoder: nice :)
04:53 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/3v2jaEi.png
04:53 AM XXCoder: interesting
04:54 AM XXCoder: looks like printer?
04:55 AM pink_vampire: vinyl cutter / plotter
04:55 AM XXCoder: ohh cool
04:55 AM XXCoder: so youre copying shell design?
04:56 AM pink_vampire: correct
04:56 AM pink_vampire: and make holder for the pens
04:58 AM XXCoder: cool :)
05:00 AM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/EpYOkRr.png
05:00 AM pink_vampire: a test fit
05:00 AM XXCoder: thats nifty
05:01 AM pink_vampire: thanks!
05:04 AM weenerdog: goooood mawnin
05:04 AM pink_vampire: good morning
05:04 AM weenerdog: pink
05:05 AM pink_vampire: yes
05:15 AM XXCoder: hey
05:15 AM weenerdog: xx howdy
05:36 AM jthornton: morning
05:36 AM XXCoder: morning
05:36 AM XXCoder: jthornton: they are doing changes at shop now
05:37 AM XXCoder: moved some machines to work better. one area 2 lathes is now by each other mills by each other, one machine (old fadal) is retired finally, and that weird machine will replace it
05:38 AM XXCoder: the weird one has only 8 inches on Y on table, but 4 feet wide
05:38 AM XXCoder: great for parts that dont need much y
05:39 AM jthornton: I used to do a lot of work making work cells more efficient
05:40 AM XXCoder: the old lathe/mill groups was supposed to have parts from lathe go to mill for next step
05:40 AM XXCoder: but never worked out that way. guys have to walk across but now not anymore
05:41 AM Tom_L: morning
05:42 AM XXCoder: yo
05:44 AM weenerdog: jt getchyer truck straightened out?
05:51 AM jthornton: no, I have to pull the whole dash off to get the damn TCCM out
05:52 AM XXCoder: ugh just read about massive cuts to education :(
05:53 AM XXCoder: on that same budget request, she asks 80m for charter schools.
06:01 AM weenerdog: that sucks
06:01 AM XXCoder: yeah.
06:02 AM XXCoder: charter schools is awful
06:02 AM XXCoder: in general anyway
06:02 AM jthornton: my sister once told me and she was a school supersomething that if you don't creatively (wastefully) spend all your budget before the end of the year you may not get it next year
06:04 AM weenerdog: my little mountain county is too small for all that. they do a great thing. they let good students do "early college" their jr and sr years. go to community college after lunch, start learning a trade or knocking out their general ed requirements for a 4 year degree. lot of the kids do nursing or welding. graduate from high school and ready to hit the ground running on a job or finish their college degree in 2 more years.
06:05 AM weenerdog: and it costs very little
06:07 AM jthornton: that sounds like a sensible plan, too bad most places don't do that
06:08 AM XXCoder: yeah
06:10 AM weenerdog: well i think its possible because its such a small place and small school system
06:11 AM weenerdog: i graduated 32 years ago in a class of 68 and they're not much bigger now
06:12 AM weenerdog: one of the welding kids (i took tig with him) won on 'forged in fire'
06:12 AM weenerdog: they come out knowing more than the average kid about doing stuff
06:13 AM weenerdog: i usually take some cool class there at night during the winter months because its too crappy to do anything else. gets me out of the house... winter before this, it was tig.
06:15 AM weenerdog: for the kids in the program its pretty regimented and they get a lot more instruction, but for geezers who just take it for fun, its romper room. you just play. the $180 class fee just pays for all the steel you want and you make stuff you need
06:20 AM jthornton: wish they had something like that here, my tig skills suck
06:22 AM jthornton: I took a class in stick welding a million years ago but all my tig and mig skills are self learned
06:24 AM weenerdog: stick is where its at for learning
06:25 AM weenerdog: if you can stick, mig is a no brainer. tig is its own animal, but i think stick lays a good foundation for the rest.
10:35 AM roycroft: i sort of disagree with you, weenerdog
10:35 AM roycroft: gmaw is the easiest method for beginners
10:36 AM weenerdog: oh i agree with you on that, roy
10:36 AM roycroft: i don't disagree that smaw is a good foundation for other methods, but for a beginning welder, especially one who will be self-learning and not taking classes, smaw is probably the best to start on
10:36 AM roycroft: er, gmaw
10:37 AM roycroft: gtaw is certainly its own beast
10:37 AM roycroft: and imo the only thing it has in common with the other two electric welding methods is the welding hood :)
10:37 AM roycroft: even the gloves are different
10:38 AM roycroft: oh i guess it has one other thing in common
10:38 AM roycroft: it relies on melting metal :)
10:39 AM * roycroft says all this as someone who by no means considers himself an expert, competent welder, but who has taking welding classes
10:43 AM weenerdog: lol i'm a farm fabricobbling welder. scabbing bush hogs back together for another year and such
10:43 AM weenerdog: not pretty work. all i got is an old lincoln buzz box
10:52 AM roycroft: you can do good welding with a car battery and jumper cables
10:53 AM roycroft: i would not try that at a nuclear power plant
10:53 AM roycroft: or on a space ship
10:53 AM roycroft: but it can make two pieces of metal one quite successfully
11:53 AM pink_vampire: https://imgur.com/a/Z0RM30o
11:57 AM roycroft: do the cheap chinese hall sensor tachometers work well on a lathe?
11:58 AM roycroft: like this one:
11:58 AM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/p/4-Digital-LED-Tachometer-RPM-Speed-Meter-Proximity-Switch-Sensor-NPN/13020049708
12:15 PM pink_vampire: look very cheap
12:15 PM pink_vampire: try it
12:28 PM roycroft: the price is no big deal
12:28 PM roycroft: the time spent installing it is a bigger deal
12:28 PM roycroft: i'm not even sure where i would mount the sensor, offhand
12:28 PM roycroft: i'll have to go look inside the gear box when next i'm in my shop
01:24 PM Tom_L: pink_vampire, so the clay worked? :D
01:25 PM pink_vampire: cmm
01:37 PM fragalot: hi
01:46 PM gloops: evening
01:49 PM fragalot: gloops: big (meaningless?) day today?
01:56 PM gloops: yeah some dickative votes taking place later
01:56 PM fragalot: hehe
01:57 PM gloops: the ERG have finally capitulated it seems and will back May, the DUP havent..yet
01:59 PM fragalot: I do like how it's undemocratic to have a 2nd referendum, however it IS perfectly democratic to try to force the vote on the same deal 3 times :D
02:02 PM roycroft: fragalot: it's just a complete and total giant clusterfuck at this point
02:02 PM roycroft: no solution will be a good one
02:02 PM roycroft: not even revoking article 50
02:02 PM fragalot: they have 3 options now
02:02 PM gloops: normal debating tactics in parliament
02:02 PM fragalot: either they shoot in their left foot
02:02 PM roycroft: there were eight on the table earlier
02:02 PM fragalot: shoot in their right foot
02:03 PM fragalot: or put their feet together & shoot both
02:03 PM gloops: have a vote, hand some sweets out, squeeze some balls, try again
02:03 PM fragalot: gloops: :D
02:04 PM roycroft: they have actually already shot themselves in their cobblers awls
02:04 PM roycroft: but the good news is that trexit has been officially announced
02:04 PM fragalot: whatnow?
02:05 PM roycroft: the prime minister has officially announced that she will resign after the brexit mess is settled
02:05 PM roycroft: in other words, she has totally screwed things up, and will run away to leave the tidying up to someone else
02:05 PM fragalot: well yeah but that's been the plan since she started on day 1
02:05 PM roycroft: plan?
02:05 PM gloops: not quite
02:05 PM roycroft: you think that she has a plan?
02:05 PM roycroft: or ever even thought she had a plan?
02:06 PM fragalot: roycroft: she does
02:06 PM fragalot: force her deal through & run
02:06 PM fragalot: or fail to force her deal through & run
02:06 PM fragalot: but regardless of what you may say
02:06 PM gloops: May has said she will not stay for the second round of negotiations IF her deal is lassed in parliament - which the ERG have accepted
02:06 PM roycroft: bercow told her AGAIN today that she can't have a third vote on the same deal
02:06 PM fragalot: she has been given a thankless job, with zero views on success either way
02:06 PM roycroft: cameron is the one who is really to blame for this whole mess
02:06 PM roycroft: remember him?
02:07 PM roycroft: he's hoping you don't
02:07 PM fragalot: I did like his reaction after the referendum
02:07 PM fragalot: "welp."
02:07 PM gloops: you cant blame cameron for giving a referendum that the majority of british people wanted
02:07 PM roycroft: the majority did not want it
02:07 PM gloops: a hard right euro-sceptic party was growing rapidly
02:07 PM roycroft: and he only promised it because he thought he would never have to keep his promise
02:07 PM fragalot: the majority did not UNDERSTAND it, that's the main issue
02:07 PM gloops: roycroft the majority voted to leave
02:08 PM roycroft: but he misjudged the elctorate
02:08 PM roycroft: and accidently won the election
02:08 PM roycroft: that's because they were lied to
02:08 PM gloops: its ALL about votes, UKIP was sucking votes from all parties at an alarming rate
02:08 PM fragalot: the problem with binding referendums with no thresholds on them is that half of the voters score below average on IQ tests
02:08 PM roycroft: yes
02:09 PM roycroft: and cameron thought he would stop the vote sucking from the tories if he promised a referendum
02:09 PM gloops: it isnt about IQ
02:09 PM roycroft: he also thought he would not win a majority in the election
02:09 PM roycroft: and would have to form a minority government
02:09 PM fragalot: gloops: read what I said again, carefully.
02:09 PM roycroft: and that he would be able to call off the referendum by saying that he did not have enough support in the commons to push it through
02:09 PM gloops: i cant the wife is talking about her pay rise lol
02:10 PM roycroft: bu then he won
02:10 PM fragalot: gloops: :P
02:10 PM roycroft: and went "oh shit, now i have to have the referendum"
02:10 PM roycroft: why are we talking about a binding referendum?
02:10 PM roycroft: when no such thing was ever offered
02:10 PM fragalot: because it wasn't
02:11 PM fragalot: yet is treated as such
02:11 PM roycroft: i think it's pretty damn funny that one of the proposals to be voted on tonight is for a trade union with no customs union
02:12 PM roycroft: i know that's what the pro-brexit folks were promised
02:12 PM roycroft: but it's a complete non-starter with the eu
02:12 PM roycroft: and every person on the planet knows that
02:12 PM fragalot: what they were told is also a joke
02:12 PM roycroft: another proposal on the table is a customs union with no trade union
02:13 PM roycroft: which the eu might go along with
02:13 PM roycroft: but which would incite a civil war in the uk
02:13 PM fragalot: roycroft: but is there time to get that going before brexit happens already?
02:13 PM fragalot: also, same question as above for ANY of the options they're voting on now
02:13 PM roycroft: fragalot: the eu have already said they would grant a longer extension if something significantly changed in the uk
02:14 PM fragalot: roycroft: limited still though to the EU elections
02:14 PM gloops: you do realise that the majority here see Mays grovelling submission to the EU in asking for a an extension as a complete surrender by the UK?
02:14 PM roycroft: my observation is that the eu want to do whatever it can to help the uk work through the brexit, but have reached a limit of negotiation with the current proposal
02:14 PM roycroft: no, i don't think that's the case at all, gloops
02:15 PM gloops: roycroft the EU want to make an example of the UK
02:15 PM roycroft: i think the majority in the uk see may's groveling as nothing more but a demonstration of her utter and complete incompetence
02:15 PM fragalot: not really
02:15 PM gloops: they want to deter more nations leaving
02:15 PM roycroft: no, the eu do NOT want to make an example of the uk
02:15 PM fragalot: the EU is just doing exactly what they said they'd do on paper BEFORE brexit was even a thing
02:15 PM gloops: this deal of Mays is a humiliation
02:15 PM roycroft: and believe me, they do NOT need to do anything more to discourage anyone else from leaving
02:15 PM roycroft: this has been such a huge clusterfuck that nobody else in the eu would ever think of leaving
02:16 PM gloops: the UK is equivalent to 17 small EU nations leaving
02:16 PM gloops: theres noclusterfuck lol
02:16 PM gloops: it will be fine
02:16 PM roycroft: if you see it as a humiliation that is because you believed the propoganda that the uk would be able to go to the eu and dictate its terms for leaving, and the eu would bend over and say "please, great britannia, master of all natios, allow us to comply with your demands"
02:17 PM fragalot: roycroft: close
02:17 PM roycroft: and it did not work out that way at all, now did it?
02:17 PM gloops: it was entirely possible for us to have enormous leverage over the EU, had we held our nerve and left with no deal
02:17 PM fragalot: it's more of a "allow us to fore-go our existing legislation and make an exception for you"
02:17 PM roycroft: no, it was not possible for you to have enormous leverage over the eu
02:17 PM roycroft: the empire is gone
02:18 PM roycroft: it's been gone for the better part of a century
02:18 PM roycroft: this is like that bullshit you were spouting about how the uk would have won the war anyway, had the us not helped out
02:18 PM gloops: haha, i think its you that has some romantic pre-conception of things here roycroft
02:19 PM roycroft: i have no romantic notions of anything
02:19 PM fragalot: roycroft: I mean, the UK probably could have
02:19 PM fragalot: I mean.. they had freaking tea kettles built into their thanks
02:19 PM roycroft: fragalot: it really couldn't
02:19 PM fragalot: KETTLES!
02:19 PM fragalot: -h
02:19 PM gloops: however, we are we are, we need mays deal to pass, and we need a brexiteer leader for the round 2
02:19 PM roycroft: and that's not putting the brits down at all
02:19 PM roycroft: the blitzkrieg was really intense
02:19 PM gloops: a) Hitler could never have landed an invasion force here
02:19 PM roycroft: had the us not joined in, london would have been totally destroyed
02:19 PM fragalot: roycroft: yea but tea kettles would have won easily
02:20 PM gloops: he tried several dummy runs, his landing craft never got half a mile from the french coast
02:20 PM roycroft: not right away, gloops
02:20 PM gloops: and were ultimately sunk in the dock
02:20 PM fragalot: the UK definitely was vital with their advanced intelligence setups, there is no denying that
02:20 PM gloops: even if he had landed, he could never have supplied his army
02:21 PM roycroft: germany occupied the channel islands throughout the war
02:21 PM gloops: i mean lets face it, the yanks never saw an angry man in the war till 44
02:21 PM gloops: roycroft a few potato fields?
02:22 PM roycroft: jersey and guernsey
02:23 PM roycroft: churchill himself said that britain would have been lost if not for the americans
02:23 PM roycroft: and again, this is not putting the brits down
02:23 PM roycroft: you needed help
02:23 PM roycroft: and we helped
02:23 PM roycroft: that does not make us better than you
02:23 PM roycroft: it makes us friends
02:24 PM fragalot: very true, the US played a vital role in assisting the brits with decryption efforts
02:24 PM fragalot: long before any troops were sent
02:24 PM roycroft: and we bombed the crap out of germany
02:24 PM roycroft: and slowed them down a lot
02:24 PM gloops: when was this fragalot?
02:25 PM gloops: most of that took place at Bletchley park
02:25 PM fragalot: bletchley coordinated but could not keep up
02:25 PM fragalot: a LOT of the codes were sent through to the USA to assist with decryption
02:25 PM gloops: i see, so the yanks did some number crunching
02:26 PM fragalot: yes
02:26 PM fragalot: they built massive amounts of bombes to be able to keep up
02:27 PM roycroft: we, the united states, could not have won the war on our own, either
02:27 PM roycroft: and the brits and the us together could not have won it
02:27 PM gloops: we had it under control, Churchill was far too hasty going to the yanks
02:27 PM gloops: roycroft watch this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru-QAIyvHt0
02:27 PM fragalot: gloops: bletchley could not have done it without the US's assistance
02:28 PM roycroft: the main reason the germans lost was because hitler was too cocky and thought he could wage war on two fronts
02:28 PM roycroft: and seriously underestimated the soviets
02:28 PM gloops: fragalot yes we could, the genius was here
02:28 PM fragalot: sure, they could crack it, but not fast enough without the ~160 bombes the USA had
02:28 PM fragalot: gloops: not in time
02:28 PM roycroft: anyway, it is lunch time
02:28 PM fragalot: yes, you had the brains, but not the computing power
02:28 PM gloops: we had all the time in the world
02:28 PM roycroft: and the votes in the commons will start in an hour and a half
02:28 PM fragalot: you didn't, the intelligence would be too old by then
02:28 PM roycroft: that should be fun
02:29 PM fragalot: cracking it BEFORE the code changed is vital
02:29 PM gloops: hitler stuck a stick in the hornets nest to the east
02:29 PM fragalot: so what the UK did was "prepare" recipes to send to the USA to speed up decryption
02:29 PM fragalot: the US would then use shit tons of bombes to number crunch and reduce possible sets as fast as possible
02:30 PM fragalot: and send the results back to bletchley to finish the job
02:30 PM fragalot: this saved months of time, if not longer for each code
02:30 PM gloops: well the war is long over and nothing to do with Brexit anyway lol
02:30 PM fragalot: sure, but it's still a very interesting thing to read about :-)
02:31 PM fragalot: using "the cloud" back in 1943 before internet was a thing :D
02:31 PM gloops: the yanks wouldnt have had computers without us
02:32 PM gloops: it was a terrible mistake giving them our secrets
02:32 PM gloops: we could have finished hitler off then sorted the USA out
02:32 PM fragalot: lol
02:37 PM gregcnc: any cheap flush cutter worth buying? https://xuron.com/index.php/main/consumer_products/3/25
02:38 PM pink_vampire: gregcnc: hf lathe tool is a grate fly cutter
02:38 PM fragalot: gregcnc: depends on what you expect from it
02:38 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/OIRiWum.png
02:39 PM fragalot: i've had varying degrees of success with most cheap brands, most are "good enough" for electronics leads, but can't do anything else
02:39 PM gregcnc: I had some xurons, but the blades didn't line up nicely
02:39 PM fragalot: gregcnc: if there is no slop that can be solved with a grinder :P
02:39 PM gregcnc: i guess for 10USD you can't expect much
02:40 PM fragalot: some of my most used ones were €3
02:40 PM fragalot: the €90+ ones are reserved for... well they're just sitting pretty tbh
02:40 PM pink_vampire: use large radius or flat corner
02:40 PM gregcnc: was looking at amazon, seems like you'd be lucky to get a real xuron
02:41 PM XXCoder: fragalot: $90 ones is there to impress clients.
02:41 PM fragalot: XXCoder: :D
02:41 PM gregcnc: pink flush cutter, not fly cutter unless you have questions?
02:42 PM pink_vampire: LOL i just realize you ask for flush cutter not fly cutter
02:42 PM gregcnc: knipex are 30USD and too much for the kids to work on models with
02:42 PM gregcnc: I must have disposed of the old xuron I had
02:43 PM fragalot: i'm not a huge fan of the knipex ones tbh. I love all their other stuff, and they're good, but they're just not 3x better than the cheap ones imho
02:44 PM gregcnc: really? like these https://www.knipex.com/index.php?id=1216&L=1&page=art_detail&parentID=&groupID=1483&artID=2736&d=1
02:44 PM fragalot: yeah
02:45 PM gregcnc: oh, they sure look nice
02:45 PM fragalot: they do, and they're alright, but not 3x better than cheaper ones like the xurons you linked
02:45 PM gregcnc: ok, I'll just get something dirt cheap
02:46 PM methods_: i have some of these cheap hakkos i like
02:46 PM methods_: https://www.amazon.com/Hakko-CHP-170-Micro-Cutter/dp/B00FZPDG1K
02:46 PM fragalot: I have a pack of those exact same ones, but in yellow
02:46 PM fragalot: :P
02:46 PM gregcnc: those were the first to come up
02:47 PM fragalot: good value imho
02:47 PM fragalot: for standard cutters i'd go knipex & spend the big bucks, but for these flush cutters.. meh. :-)
02:48 PM methods_: hard to beat for $6
02:48 PM fragalot: yeah, and since they mostly cut copper & plastics, they don't really wear out either
02:49 PM gregcnc: just have to get the kid to understand they aren't for music wire
02:50 PM fragalot: that's why you get the cheap ones
02:51 PM fragalot: pro tip; clamp down on a piece of piano wire that's the same diameter as the little copper jumper wires you want to strip once you get to that point
02:51 PM fragalot: makes stripping those little bastards super easy
02:52 PM gregcnc: And if you want to strip large wires take your snapon cutter/crimper and cut through some wire connected to a 12V car battery
02:52 PM fragalot: a little less precise, lol
02:53 PM fragalot: i've got a selection of the cheap flush trim cutters intentionally mauled though with different diameters
02:53 PM gregcnc: man was i pissed
02:53 PM fragalot: to use as a precision stripping tool
02:55 PM gregcnc: i've always liked this type https://www.channellock.com/product/958/
02:57 PM fragalot: yea but those don't go down to the tiny sizes
03:24 PM Tom_L: https://www.kleintools.com/catalog/klein-kurve/klein-kurve-wire-stripper-and-cutter
03:25 PM Tom_L: i've had decent luck with those
03:25 PM fragalot: neat, I had no idea they existed in small sizes
03:25 PM XXCoder: theres fancy one that cut AND pull plastic off at one step
03:25 PM fragalot: there are, and I have several of those
03:26 PM fragalot: they work well most of the time
03:26 PM fragalot: but the style currently shown makes for a cleaner cut
03:26 PM Tom_L: but as someone suggested above, don't cut an extension cord in half while it's still plugged in
03:27 PM jthornton: that's how you find out what breaker is on that outlet
03:27 PM methods_: unless you like sparks
03:27 PM Tom_L: ahh yeah, i forgot about the circuit test feature on them
03:27 PM XXCoder: or find out if there is indeed an afterlife heh
03:28 PM roycroft: i like the klein wire strippers for larger size wires
03:28 PM roycroft: i prefer the pull type ones for smaller gauge wires
03:28 PM roycroft: i'm not finding a link offhand
03:28 PM methods_: wire cutters/breaker testers
03:29 PM roycroft: but i have several of them, from 20ga to 30ga
03:29 PM fragalot: I don't like that in-line pull type all that much
03:29 PM fragalot: I mean, it does work, but ... personal preference being what it is & all that :)
03:29 PM roycroft: they have a red plastic barrel
03:29 PM roycroft: and some grippers for the insulation
03:30 PM roycroft: well, that cut through the insulation
03:30 PM roycroft: so you lay the wire in the grippers, push it down, then pull on it
03:30 PM roycroft: for the really fine gauge stuff that is really the best, imo
03:30 PM roycroft: because the spacing between the cutters is fixed
03:31 PM fragalot: my main go-to wire stripper is a 30yr old stripax
03:31 PM fragalot: I think weidmuller bought them up
03:31 PM methods_: https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-01924A-Ultimate-Self-Adjusting-Stripper/dp/B000IYTCG6
03:31 PM roycroft: https://www.ebay.com/itm/OK-INDUSTRIES-WIRE-STRIPPER-ST-100-30-30-AWG-0-25mm-NEW/333099470016
03:31 PM roycroft: like that
03:32 PM fragalot: those neiko ones always fail me when I need them the most after about 3 years of use
03:32 PM roycroft: that's the kind we always used for wire wrapping when i worked for the telco
03:32 PM methods_: for $14 who cares lol
03:32 PM methods_: buy 10 pairs
03:32 PM methods_: heheh
03:32 PM fragalot: methods_: I do when i'm on-site carrying a toolbox on a plane first
03:33 PM fragalot: i've got these in the toolbox https://cpc.farnell.com/productimages/standard/en_GB/42312354.jpg (or at least similar)
03:33 PM fragalot: the damn thing is well over 30 yrs old and has not failed me once
03:33 PM methods_: yeah that would suck all the way out on the flight line
03:34 PM roycroft: i flew to a job site once and got a screwdrive confiscated by airport security
03:34 PM roycroft: this was well before 9/11 - i have not flown since then
03:34 PM gloops: another hour on this to right it up https://ibb.co/283vTwd
03:34 PM roycroft: i had a big tool box with me
03:34 PM roycroft: all sorts of wire strippers, screwdrivers, pliers, box cutters, splicing knife, etc.
03:35 PM roycroft: security went through the whole thing
03:35 PM fragalot: roycroft: been there, done that. also queued up for an hour to check in a bag to be told it had to be checked in at the "high risk" desk instead
03:35 PM roycroft: and decided that a 6" flat tip screwdriver was "dangerous"
03:35 PM roycroft: and confiscated it
03:35 PM roycroft: but they let me take everything else
03:35 PM fragalot: yea
03:35 PM fragalot: also
03:35 PM roycroft: including the knives and razor blades
03:35 PM fragalot: if security asks you "what is in your bag"
03:35 PM fragalot: and you tell them " a spray gun "
03:35 PM roycroft: there were also longer screwdrivers than that
03:35 PM fragalot: you WILL get tackled.
03:35 PM roycroft: so it wasn't just a length thing
03:36 PM roycroft: i had a butane soldering iron in it too
03:36 PM roycroft: that probably should not have gone
03:36 PM fragalot: hehe
03:36 PM roycroft: as there is a risk of its exploding
03:36 PM roycroft: in my mind that was far more dangerous than a screwdriver
03:36 PM fragalot: those are probably not allowed in check-in bags, but i'm not sure about carry-pon
03:36 PM fragalot: carry-on*
03:37 PM fragalot: since you are allowed to take a lighter on board.. which IS a pressurized butane container
03:37 PM roycroft: the only "logic" behind the decision, i'm sure was "we're spending all this time searching his tool box - we had better come up with something to confiscate"
03:37 PM roycroft: anyway
03:37 PM roycroft: when i got to my destination, after i got the rental car i drove to a local supplier and bought another screwdriver identical to the one that was confiscated
03:37 PM roycroft: and when i flew home they searched my tool box and did not take anything
03:38 PM SpeedEvil: roycroft: They'd already taken the dangerous stuff to be fair.
03:38 PM roycroft: my ability to go about my business
03:38 PM fragalot: :P
03:38 PM fragalot: airport security is a curious thing
03:39 PM roycroft: you mean "airport security theatre"
03:39 PM fragalot: especially when you see the nice signs in chicago saying "good news! you no longer have to take off your shoes"
03:39 PM fragalot: and they get mad because you didn't take off your shoes
03:39 PM roycroft: i'm not afraid of flying
03:39 PM roycroft: the reason i haven't flown since 9/11 is because i refuse to participate in that kabuki theatre
03:40 PM fragalot: roycroft: but the questions you get as a non-US resident are amazing
03:40 PM roycroft: i'm sure
03:40 PM fragalot: "have you ever contracted a contageous disease of any kind, or murdered a child? yes or no?"
03:48 PM roycroft: "um, i think the answer you want is 'no', so, um 'no'"
03:48 PM fragalot: :D
03:51 PM Rab: The "give them the answer they want" questions are entirely intentional. If somebody answers yes, either they are insufficiently terrorized or they may actually be unhinged...either way it's low-hanging fruit.
03:53 PM roycroft: or you can just say "i don't want to play your game" and not go to the airport :)
03:53 PM Rab: "Are you planning to commit a terroristic act during your trip to the USA, Y/N/I am now"
03:53 PM roycroft: i understand there are different consequences to making that choice
03:53 PM fragalot: if work says "go, we'll pay you well & all expenses are paid", I go.
03:53 PM fragalot: simples.
03:54 PM fragalot: :-)
03:54 PM Rab: ^^
03:54 PM roycroft: prior to 9/11 i rarely left my timezone anyway - most of my flights were quick jaunts up to washington or down to california
03:54 PM roycroft: so it was not difficult for me to choose not to play
03:54 PM roycroft: i had to spend a week in richardson once for training, and found it hard to find decent food to eat during that week
03:55 PM roycroft: that was well before 9/11
03:55 PM roycroft: so i decided to do all future trainings in the sfo/sjc area
03:55 PM Rab: roycroft, no beach vacay in exotic foreign locale?
03:55 PM roycroft: i love the oregon coast
03:55 PM roycroft: it's my exotic beachy locale :)
03:55 PM roycroft: i do want to go to hawaii some day
03:56 PM roycroft: and it's hard to book a berth in a freighter any more
03:56 PM roycroft: so i might have to think really hard about my airport avoidance when the time comes
03:56 PM roycroft: i've always loved riding on trains, and my trips to north dakota post 9/11 have all been on amtrak
03:57 PM roycroft: i never liked flying much in the first place
03:57 PM fragalot: nobody likes being herded into a tube like cattle
03:57 PM Rab: No grope/pornoscanner for private plane, FYI.
03:57 PM fragalot: but it gets you there in about the same time it would take you to drive
03:57 PM fragalot: :P
03:57 PM fragalot: Rab: very true
03:58 PM fragalot: my experiences in those have been fantastic
03:58 PM roycroft: that's kind of the deal
03:58 PM roycroft: especially on short flights like i used to make
03:58 PM fragalot: show up, say hi to bob from security, hop in your plane & have a chat with the pilot
03:59 PM roycroft: by the time you get to the airport to check in early, sit around for ages, sit around longer while your flight is delayed, finally get to the destination, wait an uncountable amount of time for baggage to arrive, take the shuttle to the rental car lot, and get the rental car all dealt with you could have driven there
03:59 PM roycroft: not really
03:59 PM roycroft: but i can drive to sfo in <10 hours
03:59 PM roycroft: and to fly there meant a connecting flight in pdx
03:59 PM roycroft: it was usually 6-7 hours total to get there by air
04:00 PM fragalot: my threshold for planes is >5hrs to drive
04:00 PM roycroft: the place where i work now doesn't send me on training/seminar trips
04:00 PM roycroft: so this is all moot
04:00 PM roycroft: almost all my travel is for pleasure now
04:01 PM roycroft: and airports are not pleasurable by any stretch of the imagination
04:01 PM XXCoder: unless you own a personal plane? heh
04:01 PM roycroft: that would come with its own set of headaches and hassles
04:01 PM XXCoder: nd expenses
04:02 PM roycroft: vote-o-rama in the commons commences in 1 minute
04:02 PM roycroft: what if the vote both to revoke article 50 and for a no-deal brexit? :)
04:02 PM roycroft: both motions are on the table
04:02 PM fragalot: :D
04:03 PM roycroft: what if they vote down all 8 motions?
04:03 PM fragalot: actually
04:03 PM fragalot: if they revoke a50
04:03 PM fragalot: then there is no deal
04:03 PM roycroft: yes
04:03 PM fragalot: everyone wins
04:03 PM roycroft: yes
04:03 PM roycroft: but a lot of people who just won will think they lost
04:04 PM fragalot: have they started voting yet?
04:04 PM roycroft: our esteemed colleague here being one of them
04:04 PM roycroft: the votes are supposed to start at 9pm
04:04 PM roycroft: it is 9:01p
04:04 PM roycroft: m
04:04 PM roycroft: so they should be starting any time now
04:04 PM * fragalot need sto find a list of the options to see what they're voting on now
04:04 PM fragalot: to google!
04:05 PM roycroft: the dup are still rejecting may's proposal
04:05 PM gloops: these votes are only motion level, they dont make anything law
04:05 PM roycroft: correct, gloops
04:05 PM roycroft: they would establish the framework for the legislation
04:05 PM fragalot: gloops: not to mention the government's already indicated that it will ignore the results anyhow
04:05 PM roycroft: there's also a lot of talk about how may might prorogue parliament
04:05 PM gloops: roycroft the DUP will come over, £1 billion maybe
04:05 PM roycroft: and that the queen would not dare interfere with that
04:06 PM roycroft: gloops: the ira have already planted bombs in england
04:06 PM gloops: May hasnt got the balls she's useless
04:06 PM gloops: roycroft so what?
04:06 PM roycroft: if there is a hard border in ireland the good friday agreement will be binned
04:06 PM roycroft: and we'll go back to that time
04:06 PM fragalot: https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmagenda/OP190327.pdf
04:06 PM gloops: there isnt going to be a hard border though
04:07 PM roycroft: if there is a hard brexit there is a 100% chance of a hard border
04:07 PM roycroft: that's not speculation
04:07 PM roycroft: the eu have stated that
04:07 PM roycroft: and rightly so
04:07 PM gloops: so the eu are making a hard border?
04:07 PM gloops: thats their baby not ours
04:07 PM roycroft: they have to
04:07 PM roycroft: yes, it's "yours"
04:07 PM gloops: so be it
04:07 PM roycroft: because ni are part of the uk
04:07 PM gloops: no it isnt
04:07 PM roycroft: it will 100% affect the uk
04:07 PM gloops: no hard border on our land
04:08 PM roycroft: yes
04:08 PM gloops: no lol
04:08 PM roycroft: in ireland
04:08 PM gloops: the UK is not making a hard border
04:08 PM roycroft: that is "yours"
04:08 PM gloops: no it isnt because it wont be in the UK
04:08 PM fragalot: why won't it be?
04:08 PM roycroft: you're telling me that if the eu stop every person trying to enter ireland from northern ireland that the uk are not going to stop every person trying to enter northern ireland from ireland?
04:08 PM fragalot: it is now..?
04:09 PM gloops: because we arent making a hard border
04:09 PM roycroft: if you don't have a customs arrangement of some sort with the eu then there will have to be a hard border
04:09 PM gloops: roycroft no we wont stop them
04:09 PM roycroft: but you're still operating under the delusion that the uk can have everything it wants and give up nothing
04:09 PM gloops: the EU can have a hard border on their side, thats theirs
04:09 PM fragalot: there will be a border between the EU, and a third country like the UK will be after it leaves assuming no deal is reached
04:09 PM gloops: there wont be a hard border in the UK
04:10 PM fragalot: and a third world country, with no deal in place, will mean it is a hard border with border checks, visa requirements, and all of the other fun stuff
04:10 PM roycroft: the only way to avoid a hard border in ireland would be for northern ireland to leave the uk and become part of ireland
04:10 PM fragalot: if there IS a deal of sorts, of course, that is a different matter
04:10 PM gloops: roycroft those are threats and nightmares dreamt up as leverage by the EU
04:10 PM roycroft: bo jo has said that he'll vote for may's deal
04:10 PM roycroft: even though he said her deal is a "suicide vest"
04:10 PM roycroft: but he also won't vote for her deal until the dup agree
04:10 PM roycroft: and they won't
04:11 PM fragalot: gloops: not so much dreamt up as read straight off of the legislative bills that have been in place since the EU's conception
04:11 PM roycroft: no, gloops, those are simple realities
04:11 PM gloops: fragalot thats their business, as i said
04:11 PM roycroft: if you have a big hole in the schengen zone then you have no shenzen zone
04:11 PM roycroft: schengen
04:11 PM gloops: you want a hard border you have one
04:11 PM roycroft: the eu do not WANT a hard border
04:11 PM gloops: oh so there wont be one then?
04:12 PM fragalot: they'll have no choice
04:12 PM roycroft: but without a customs agreement they HAVE to have a hard border
04:12 PM roycroft: they have no choice
04:12 PM gloops: ok thats their business
04:12 PM roycroft: it's your business too
04:12 PM gloops: no it isnt, its their land not ours
04:12 PM roycroft: when the violence returns to northern ireland and the rest of the uk
04:12 PM gloops: have as many borders as you like
04:12 PM gloops: roycroft, let the violence return, we can dish it out as well
04:13 PM roycroft: oh brother
04:13 PM roycroft: i'm half convinced gloops is just trolling
04:13 PM gloops: im not trolling
04:13 PM roycroft: but then i'm half convinced he's not, and that is the scary part
04:13 PM roycroft: you do NOT want to go back to the days where brits lived in fear of the ira
04:14 PM gloops: you want to bomb me because i want my own country?
04:14 PM gloops: ok? bring it on
04:14 PM roycroft: i don't want to bomb you at all
04:14 PM roycroft: honestly, the only long term solution that i can see is for northern ireland and scotland to leave the uk
04:15 PM roycroft: whether northern ireland reunites with the republic of ireland or not, i don't know
04:15 PM fragalot: roycroft: except that won't sit well with certain groups in NI.
04:15 PM roycroft: but northern ireland as an independent nation that is a member of the eu could work
04:15 PM gloops: how about southern ireland joining the UK?
04:15 PM roycroft: except ni would have a hard time sustaining itself financially
04:15 PM fragalot: gloops: that'd work fine too
04:15 PM roycroft: that's never going to happen again, gloops
04:15 PM gloops: never?
04:16 PM sync: why would they do that?
04:16 PM roycroft: the english made sure that the irish will NEVER rejoing theuk
04:16 PM gloops: not when the EU collapses?
04:16 PM fragalot: from a legal standpoint, anyway
04:16 PM roycroft: the eu will not collapse
04:16 PM roycroft: but even if it did (a pure hypothetial)
04:16 PM roycroft: no
04:17 PM roycroft: the republic of ireland would not under any circumstances rejoin the uk
04:17 PM roycroft: at least not for some centuries
04:17 PM gloops: time will tell
04:17 PM gloops: not that i want ireland anyway
04:17 PM roycroft: the memories of what the english did to the irish will take a very very very long time to fade
04:18 PM roycroft: and the english realized this 80 years ago when they let the irish leave
04:19 PM gloops: well bitterness doesnt fill empty bellies
04:19 PM roycroft: they could have put down the rebellion
04:19 PM roycroft: and subjugated the irish people again
04:19 PM roycroft: but they knew it would just start up all over again
04:19 PM roycroft: the english are the ones who caused the famine
04:19 PM roycroft: so the empty belly argument isn't going to fly
04:20 PM fragalot: https://i.imgur.com/JtHoyEg.jpg this is kinda neat
04:20 PM XXCoder: lol
04:20 PM gloops: i dont think anyone in england gives a flying f about ireland roycroft
04:20 PM XXCoder: great way to use bits
04:20 PM roycroft: and the dup have officially announced that they will vote no on may's deal for the third time
04:21 PM roycroft: if may's deal ever comes up for a vote
04:21 PM gloops: so May is 12 votes short
04:21 PM roycroft: 12 votes + all the tory backbench defectors
04:21 PM fragalot: what was the vote on now? I missed it
04:21 PM roycroft: no vote yet
04:21 PM roycroft: the dup said they will not vote for may's deal if it comes up again
04:22 PM fragalot: oh yeah they've said that for a while
04:22 PM fragalot: at least they're consistent
04:22 PM fragalot: I guess
04:22 PM roycroft: and as i was starting to say before, some think that may can just prorogue parliament and reconvene it and have that vote
04:22 PM gloops: the DUP wont move until the last day/hour/minute
04:22 PM roycroft: and that the crown will do nothing to stop it because the crown's position is perceived as "weak"
04:22 PM gloops: irish...
04:23 PM fragalot: the ayes have ... something.
04:23 PM roycroft: but i guarantee you that her majesty has had may in buckingham palace, and has said very clearly "you will NOT prorogue parliament, and you will NOT drag me into this"
04:23 PM gloops: that vote approved - if mays deal we exit 22nd may, if no deal 12th april
04:24 PM roycroft: the vote to delay was approved
04:24 PM gloops: a non event really
04:24 PM roycroft: that's the deal she made with the eu
04:24 PM roycroft: delay until 12 april
04:24 PM roycroft: yes, it was pretty much a formality
04:24 PM gloops: that extension is under legal challenge anyway
04:24 PM roycroft: but there had to be a statuatory vote
04:25 PM fragalot: so they're on a coffee break now then
04:26 PM roycroft: yes, bercow has suspended the house while some ballots are being counted
04:26 PM fragalot: bet he really just needed a bathroom break :P
04:29 PM roycroft: i like the joanna cherry motion the best
04:29 PM roycroft: it would require the commons to vote on a no-deal brexit two days before the deadline, if no deal has been agreed to by the eu and the uk
04:30 PM roycroft: if that vote fails, may would be required to revoke article 50
04:30 PM roycroft: that is the most sensible of all the motions on the table today
04:30 PM roycroft: it still gives the government time to work on the deal
04:30 PM roycroft: but takes the catastrophic outcome off the table
04:31 PM roycroft: the confirmatory public vote is also a good motion
04:31 PM roycroft: especially if they made it binding, which the original referendum was not
04:31 PM roycroft: that would require a public vote on any deal before that deal was enacted
04:31 PM roycroft: probably the most democratic of any of the options
04:32 PM gloops: those things all represent total and utter capitulation roycroft, there will be civil unrest
04:32 PM fragalot: all of the available options will cause civil unrest
04:32 PM gloops: these traitors are only bottling up a bigger political explosion than brexit
04:33 PM roycroft: the traitors are the ones who duped the british people into believing they could completely control the brexit negotiations in the first place
04:33 PM gloops: the EU was a con when we first joined
04:33 PM gloops: in fact, our very membership is illegal
04:33 PM fragalot: roycroft: but they had a bus
04:33 PM roycroft: hmm
04:34 PM fragalot: and the bus had a number on it
04:34 PM roycroft: so the speaker has suspended parliament, and walked out, but left the mace
04:34 PM roycroft: now tories are screaming and demanding that the deputy speaker take over
04:34 PM roycroft: we may see a coup tonight
04:34 PM gloops: lol
04:34 PM roycroft: :)
04:35 PM roycroft: why did he leave the mace?
04:35 PM fragalot: roycroft: what feed are you looking at?
04:35 PM gloops: i dont think there is anything to get excited about tonight
04:35 PM roycroft: i'm reading on the guardian
04:35 PM fragalot: ah I see
04:35 PM fragalot: the live feed just shows a silent clock
04:35 PM roycroft: i don't have enough bandwidth where i am to live stream
04:36 PM roycroft: i wonder if bercow is gonna run back in and grab the mace
04:36 PM fragalot: what does the mace symbolize?
04:36 PM roycroft: it symbolizes that parliament is in session
04:36 PM roycroft: which is why the tories are all excited
04:36 PM roycroft: bercow announced that it's suspended
04:36 PM fragalot: I see.
04:36 PM roycroft: but he did not take the mace with him
04:37 PM roycroft: so techinically, they're claiming, it's not suspended
04:37 PM roycroft: but the speaker is absent
04:37 PM gloops: hes the worst speaker ever
04:37 PM fragalot: I like bercow. he's a character
04:37 PM roycroft: he's a great speaker
04:37 PM roycroft: one of the best :)
04:37 PM roycroft: maybe he finally got fed up with all of this crap
04:37 PM gloops: bercow shouldnt even be at large, there have been many accusations of abuse against him
04:37 PM roycroft: and decided he did not want to preside over the circus
04:37 PM roycroft: and left the mace intentionally
04:38 PM fragalot: doubt it
04:38 PM roycroft: all by his detractors
04:38 PM roycroft: none have been proven
04:38 PM gloops: by women admin etc
04:38 PM roycroft: none have been proven
04:38 PM gloops: he even called the leader of a house something sexist
04:38 PM fragalot: it's likely that it's been so long since it's been suspended that he just did not think about taking the mace with him
04:38 PM gloops: Andrea Leadsom is such a gentlewoman
04:38 PM roycroft: i don't find it impossible to believe th allegations
04:38 PM roycroft: but they're not proven
04:39 PM gloops: he said it on camera
04:39 PM roycroft: and i find it just as plausible that they're all made up to try to get rid of him
04:40 PM roycroft: i think that both the amendments i mentioned above would be prudent to pass
04:40 PM roycroft: and i know that gloops disagrees with me on the revoke if no deal one
04:40 PM fragalot: one of the issue with all of this are the "strategic votes"
04:41 PM roycroft: but on the confirmatory public vote i don't see why he would disagree unless he's afraid that public support is not as strong as he says it is
04:41 PM gloops: there cant be another referendum on this matter, that is final
04:41 PM roycroft: why not?
04:41 PM roycroft: because you're afraid you'll lose
04:41 PM roycroft: that's why
04:41 PM gloops: there is no possible question that could be unbiased
04:42 PM gloops: no not at all
04:42 PM roycroft: the confirmatory vote would be unbiased
04:42 PM gloops: no it wouldnt
04:42 PM fragalot: as if the original referendum was unbiased
04:42 PM fragalot: but yeah
04:42 PM roycroft: the question would be "do you confirm the agreement that the prime minister made with the eu"?
04:42 PM fragalot: there is no binary answer or solution
04:42 PM gloops: it be be several leave options and one remain option - split leave vote
04:42 PM roycroft: the agreement would be what it would be
04:42 PM roycroft: every word would be there for the public to scrutinize
04:43 PM roycroft: and the vote would be simply "yes, that's fine" or "no, i don't want that"
04:43 PM gloops: the people have spoken
04:43 PM roycroft: no it would not be
04:43 PM roycroft: the confirmatory vote would be a simple yes/no vote
04:43 PM fragalot: roycroft: i've read the full deal. it is not written to be easy to understand for the average person
04:43 PM roycroft: not a bunch of options
04:43 PM roycroft: that's a different matter, fragalot
04:43 PM fragalot: roycroft: but if you vote no
04:43 PM fragalot: what are you voting for with no
04:43 PM roycroft: we're talking about the vote itself
04:44 PM roycroft: you're not voting for anything with a no vote
04:44 PM fragalot: do you say "no I disagree with the deal, because I want no deal", or "no, because I want to revoke"
04:44 PM roycroft: you're voting to reject the deal
04:44 PM roycroft: does that matter?
04:44 PM fragalot: yes!
04:44 PM gloops: no to Norway
04:44 PM roycroft: how so?
04:44 PM fragalot: this is why may's deal has failed twice already
04:44 PM roycroft: the norway model would not work for the uk anyway
04:44 PM gloops: no to 2nd Norway model
04:44 PM roycroft: the division bell is ringing
04:44 PM fragalot: people vote no because they wish to revoke a50, and voting yes for the deal removes that option entirely
04:44 PM fragalot: people also vote no because they want no deal
04:45 PM gloops: customs union NO
04:45 PM roycroft: and i'm not getting updated quickly enough
04:45 PM roycroft: customs union was a non-starter
04:45 PM gloops: Corbyns BS NO
04:45 PM roycroft: it's the exact opposite of what the brexiteers want
04:45 PM gloops: revoke article 50 no
04:45 PM gloops: NO second referendum
04:46 PM gloops: NO to whatever the hell that was
04:46 PM roycroft: we still have no-deal, common market 1, and common market 2
04:47 PM gloops: ALL REJECTED
04:47 PM fragalot: brilliant :-)
04:47 PM roycroft: not really unexpected
04:48 PM gloops: so now the traitor wants another go on Monday haha
04:48 PM gloops: just like May
04:48 PM roycroft: i'm not sure who you're referring to as "the traitor"
04:49 PM gloops: the one who tabled the motion to give parliament todays order sheet
04:49 PM gloops: that little gambit failed totally
04:50 PM gloops: May can still save herself, here and now, by re-committing to no deal exit on april 12
04:50 PM roycroft: no deal was 160 for, 400 against
04:50 PM roycroft: that's a pretty strong committment to not wanting to crash out
04:51 PM Deejay: gn8
04:51 PM roycroft: so i'm on holidays in a couple weeks
04:51 PM roycroft: i'll be spending much of that time working on my belt grinder, finally
04:52 PM fragalot: same, leaving for the UK end of next week :P
04:52 PM Lcvette: need a hal guru
04:52 PM roycroft: i'm still waiting for the platen glass to arrive
04:52 PM roycroft: but other than that i have what i need, except for the steel
04:52 PM fragalot: Lcvette: not I.
04:52 PM roycroft: which i'll pick up when i start doing the work
04:52 PM fragalot: ooh that is an interesting question
04:52 PM gloops: ive got one job to finish and im off, for a good long rest, all summer maybe
04:53 PM Lcvette: any takers for a motion.digital query
04:53 PM Lcvette: anyone know how the M62-M66 mcodes are defined?
04:53 PM roycroft: don't leave the country
04:53 PM Lcvette: im stumped
04:53 PM roycroft: you might not be able to get back in :)
04:54 PM gloops: i wont be leaving yorkshire probably unless i buy something on ebay from afar lol
04:54 PM Lcvette: trying to modify the existing atc vismatch sim so we can finish programming the atc portion of the gui
04:56 PM roycroft: maybe northumbria will be a sovereign nation by the end o fyour holidays
04:56 PM roycroft: and traveling to london will require a hard border crossing
04:56 PM Lcvette: no one?
04:56 PM Lcvette: ok
04:56 PM Lcvette: helkpful group
04:56 PM Lcvette: lol
04:56 PM gloops: Lcvette doesnt look like anyone is around who knows HAL that well
04:57 PM rmu: Lcvette: what do you want to know
04:57 PM roycroft: i don't know hal well
04:57 PM gloops: jthornton
04:57 PM roycroft: i only know how to have pointless arguments with people :P
04:58 PM fragalot: roycroft: an expect, even.
04:58 PM fragalot: expert*
04:58 PM Lcvette: rmu: im trying to reconfigure an existing vismatch ATC simulation to work with a more realistic M6 Remap
04:58 PM gloops: im going to learn linuxcnc soon as i get time, ive only got basic machine setup hal knowledge atm
04:58 PM Lcvette: so we can program the atc graphics better
04:58 PM rmu: Lcvette: i got that
04:58 PM rmu: Lcvette: what do you mean with "how is m62-66 defined"
04:59 PM rmu: those commands affect outputs of the motion component
04:59 PM Lcvette: in the remap those Mcodes are used in the macros, the existing sim has them assigned to different tasks then the actual m6 remap we want to use
05:00 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: image.png (47KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/GMVpWTphXlXYWiLmoxeZuXDE >
05:01 PM rmu: so what
05:01 PM rmu: my toolchanger looks completely different ;)
05:02 PM Lcvette: so when i insert the new m6 remap macros, the sim yells
05:03 PM Lcvette: so im trying to fix
05:03 PM rmu: you know what M62 to M66 actually do?
05:04 PM rmu: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/m-code.html#mcode:m62-m65
05:05 PM Lcvette: yes they are the motion inputs and outputs
05:05 PM rmu: so you have a simulation of your toolchanger?
05:05 PM Lcvette: of a toolchanger
05:05 PM Lcvette: yes
05:06 PM Lcvette: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/10-advanced-configuration/31754-how-to-build-atc-carousel-in-linuxcnc?start=0
05:07 PM Lcvette: using this as a base
05:08 PM Lcvette: we had it working in its stock form, but it needs to use the more refined remap we have for the atc because the qml graphic in the gui relies on it
05:08 PM Lcvette: so we need to be able to use it to simulate the actual atc so we can finish programming the qml
05:09 PM * rmu still don't understand where the problem is
05:10 PM Lcvette: the sim remap and the actual remap we are trying to use instead don't work
05:10 PM Lcvette: when switched out
05:11 PM Lcvette: rmu have you followed along with the project we are doing?>
05:11 PM rmu: no not really
05:11 PM Lcvette: we are at the end stages of a new user interface\
05:12 PM rmu: but your problem lies not with how m62-m65 is defined
05:12 PM Lcvette: a really nice one
05:12 PM Lcvette: with alot of nice integrated features
05:12 PM Lcvette: one of them is ATC
05:12 PM Lcvette: it does
05:12 PM Lcvette: the new remap is working
05:13 PM Lcvette: but it calls the M64 P0 expecting one thing and gets another
05:13 PM Lcvette: and it fails
05:13 PM Lcvette: or whatever command is in the macros being called up
05:14 PM rmu: if you change the meaning/routing of the outputs of the motion component you have to adjust your hal files accordingly, but that is obvious
05:14 PM Lcvette: so im trying to figure how to redefine those
05:14 PM Lcvette: im in the hal file as my original question posed
05:14 PM Lcvette: but im getting errors
05:14 PM Lcvette: its still new to me
05:15 PM rmu: so you either have some I/O component that talks to your carousel or in the sim case to your simulator/vismach
05:18 PM Lcvette: correct
05:18 PM rmu: and the I/Os of those components have to be connected with the motion component
05:18 PM Lcvette: im failing to properly make those work
05:18 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/mnGRMQCKsiEfTXlzyxGeitAc >
05:18 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/oBepfpqeHjnozDaRckfKFxsF >
05:18 PM Lcvette: ```
05:18 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/LAwMDZJgNotTwQkRyjzSRezC >
05:18 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/TuwlfAerFztLUucTOiFylxWH >
05:18 PM Lcvette: those are the 3 hal files in the sim
05:19 PM Lcvette: below is the working hal file from the m6 remap we want to use in the sim
05:19 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/SGPuDztnvKTNFfEWYNqcJXrs >
05:25 PM rmu: did you write a custom carousel simulation?
05:25 PM Lcvette: i did not write that no
05:26 PM rmu: can you map the signals of your real toolchanger to signals of the simulation?
05:27 PM * Lcvette uploaded a video: Peek 25-03-2019 13-21.mp4 (833KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/lpxwBflHFfNawVEnXXRUGyaw >
05:28 PM Lcvette: thats my question on how to do
05:28 PM Lcvette: ive been trying but im not sure im doing it right
05:30 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/LrVSKllExFTemokdparHVNiQ >
05:30 PM Lcvette: thats what i had tried and it fails
05:31 PM rmu: in your example in https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/GMVpWTphXlXYWiLmoxeZuXDE it seems your real machine can go "forward" and "reverse", your sim component can only "go" so it seems you have a problem
05:32 PM Lcvette: the sim will go in reverse
05:33 PM Lcvette: as you see in the video i posted it god both directions
05:34 PM _unreal_: hi are any of you good at building kernels?
05:34 PM rmu: sorry, i don't know the carousel comp nor the sim carousel, my toolchanger works like that https://youtu.be/gRrhYydcw6s
05:35 PM Lcvette: nice machine!
05:36 PM Lcvette: ok, thanks anyhow
05:36 PM rmu: big wood monster
05:37 PM rmu: but the toolchanger uses those m6x codes massively, everything needs to be checked (tool clamp/unclamp, pocket elevator, tool in pocket etc...)
05:39 PM rmu: the new interface (qtvcp based?) looks very nice
05:39 PM Lcvette: qtpyvcp
05:42 PM tiwake: merf
05:42 PM tiwake: iunno guys
05:42 PM tiwake: today I went to a job interview and got a job offer in a different machine shop
05:42 PM tiwake: the "machine shop" I currently work in has crappy machines and is difficult to get anything done because of how crappy everything is.
05:43 PM tiwake: the new job would be working with CNC machines that are well taken care of, more headroom for pay and personal growth, and not being pissed off at the machines all the time for being crappy
05:43 PM tiwake: the problem is starting pay is the same as what I'm getting paid right now
05:44 PM tiwake: the machines that I currently work with (only manual lathes and mills) look like the ways are cut out with cob endmills
05:52 PM _unreal_: ?
05:58 PM Tom_L: Lcvette did you figure out what you needed?
05:59 PM Lcvette: nope
05:59 PM Tom_L: what do you want to know about M62..65?
06:00 PM Lcvette: lol
06:00 PM Tom_L: P62 63 are on / off synchronized with motion
06:00 PM Lcvette: im too tired to re explain
06:00 PM Tom_L: and the other two are not
06:00 PM Tom_L: err M
06:00 PM Tom_L: not P
06:00 PM Lcvette: but i will
06:00 PM Tom_L: you call M64 with a number which is the output you want
06:00 PM Tom_L: 0-3
06:01 PM Tom_L: so you get 4
06:01 PM Tom_L: that turns it on
06:01 PM Lcvette: yeah this is being called via the mn6 remap
06:01 PM Tom_L: you call the same one with M65 to turn it off
06:01 PM Lcvette: they are predefined
06:02 PM Lcvette: but the new remap has different definitions for the existing mcodes
06:02 PM Tom_L: how dare it
06:02 PM Lcvette: ie old remap M64 P3 was unclamp tool
06:02 PM Lcvette: new remap M64 P3 is carousel motor forward
06:02 PM Tom_L: ok?
06:02 PM Lcvette: so there is alot of boo boos
06:03 PM Tom_L: draw a chart showing what does what and what changed
06:03 PM * Lcvette uploaded an image: image.png (46KB) < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/FVYywxPTxfCQmgSMOQZFxqQG >
06:03 PM Lcvette: like so?
06:04 PM Tom_L: something like that i suppose
06:05 PM Tom_L: so what are you stuck on?
06:05 PM Tom_L: the new one has more options
06:09 PM Lcvette: the new one is the actual machine atc
06:09 PM Lcvette: i don't know how to make the hal file work with the new remap file
06:10 PM Lcvette: so it calls the new remap macros and the M6x Px are all the old functions
06:10 PM Lcvette: so the sim fails
06:13 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: have you tried the new gui?
06:14 PM _unreal_: so non of you guys do kernel compiling?
06:14 PM Lcvette: if you want to pull it and see exactly what we are trying to do first hand might be easier
06:14 PM Lcvette: would love the assist!
06:15 PM Tom_L: i haven't tried the new gui no
06:15 PM Tom_L: _unreal_ i did one once but would be of no help to you
06:15 PM Lcvette: _unreal_: certainly not I
06:16 PM Lcvette: i try and dig myself out of one hole at a time
06:16 PM Lcvette: lol
06:16 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: do you have GitKraken?
06:16 PM Tom_L: i need 2.8 to play right?
06:17 PM Tom_L: and preempt-rt?
06:17 PM Tom_L: no
06:17 PM Tom_L: i don't know python etc either
06:17 PM Lcvette: you know hal!
06:17 PM Lcvette: :D
06:18 PM Tom_L: what about remap is giving you grief?
06:18 PM Lcvette: the remap itself is perfect
06:18 PM Tom_L: so the sequence of movement on the carousel is the issue?
06:18 PM Lcvette: its getting the existing sim vismatch hal file to work with the existing actual machine remap macros
06:19 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/ILjhpkYQsNklqgfSWxiomlzi >
06:19 PM Lcvette: thats the machine hal
06:20 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/pLZeWcEyLHZmpotulKPudDDY >
06:20 PM Lcvette: thats the sim hal
06:20 PM Lcvette: but the sim hal has a few more hals too
06:20 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/jRsjPSIBtgxsSViDLaTRzftj >
06:20 PM * Lcvette sent a long message: < https://matrix.org/_matrix/media/v1/download/matrix.org/YMEwGXtnKwqdPDsikIwjWqYY >
06:21 PM Tom_L: brb
06:21 PM Lcvette: k
06:37 PM Tom_L: i'm not sure how the sim works
06:37 PM Tom_L: are you trying to draw this as it happens?
06:38 PM Lcvette: the sim runs in its unmolested form
06:38 PM Tom_L: i know
06:38 PM Tom_L: somewhere andy has a simulation of his carousel comp
06:39 PM Lcvette: we are trying to use the new remaps to have a realistic simulation to work with as a replacement for a real atc for programming purposes
06:39 PM Tom_L: are you trying to modify the vismach one or just use it as a start point for another one?
06:40 PM Tom_L: soon as i walk in the door everybody wants me... brb
06:45 PM Lcvette: was hoping to be able to modify this one to work
06:50 PM Tom_L: Lcvette where do you remap M6?
06:53 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/gN3IZJQ.png 98%
06:56 PM Tom_L: Lcvette, http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/remap/remap.html#_configuring_iocontrol_with_a_remapped_m6
06:58 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: how do you mean
06:59 PM Tom_L: i'm giving myself a refresher course... it's been more than 24 hrs..
07:01 PM Lcvette: With macros
07:01 PM Tom_L: what's in your ini that calls it?
07:01 PM Tom_itx: REMAP=M6 modalgroup=6 prolog=change_prolog ngc=change epilog=change_epilog
07:01 PM Tom_itx: that's what i had in mine
07:02 PM Lcvette: Under the R2S476
07:02 PM Lcvette: Or whatever it is
07:02 PM Lcvette: Yeah
07:02 PM Tom_itx: you can specify the files that will be called there
07:02 PM Lcvette: For mine
07:02 PM Lcvette: I have M10 through M26
07:02 PM Tom_itx: somewhat layed out in the help link i posted
07:03 PM Lcvette: NGC files
07:04 PM asdfasd1: any idea what I can use as a relatively pure iron with minimum other metals contaminants?
07:04 PM asdfasd1: something easy to find?
07:05 PM asdfasd1: I did try nails but seems they have a lots of copper
07:05 PM Tom_L: Lcvette it can be python or ngc from what i see
07:05 PM Tom_L: i don't do python so mine was subroutines
07:07 PM Tom_L: then inside the called ngc file you do what you need to do:
07:08 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/NEW_MILL_2.8/toolchange.ngc
07:08 PM Tom_L: where does sim call the routines?
07:08 PM Lcvette: Yeah all that's work and working
07:08 PM Lcvette: Written
07:08 PM Lcvette: On the machine
07:08 PM Tom_L: i know i saw yours
07:09 PM Lcvette: Want it to run the Sim
07:09 PM Tom_L: probably have it here somewhere...
07:09 PM Tom_L: so find where sim calls a remap for M6
07:09 PM Lcvette: Yup, I did send it to you
07:09 PM Tom_L: at least that's where i'd start
07:09 PM Tom_L: but i've never done it so...
07:10 PM Lcvette: Yeah the ini
07:10 PM Lcvette: That's all done too
07:10 PM Tom_L: then redefine the routines that get called there
07:10 PM Lcvette: I'm in the hal component
07:10 PM Tom_L: trying to make all the signals match now?
07:10 PM Lcvette: It calls the correct routines
07:10 PM Lcvette: The signals are Wong
07:10 PM Lcvette: Yup
07:12 PM Lcvette: That's where I get lost
07:13 PM Tom_L: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/orient.svg
07:13 PM Tom_L: draw a flow chart like andy did
07:13 PM Tom_L: it helps
07:13 PM Tom_L: one for each one then you can see what signals are missing and maybe where to put them
07:14 PM Tom_L: some are used differently in yours
07:14 PM skunkworks: anyone know how to make say a bar graph on pyvcp larger?
07:14 PM skunkworks: it is suprislingly small on a large monitor.
07:14 PM Tom_L: get thicker specs
07:14 PM Tom_L: no.
07:16 PM Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.6/html/hal/pyvcp.html
07:16 PM Tom_L: can you specify size with it?
07:16 PM Tom_L: skunkworks ^^
07:20 PM skunkworks: Tried that - unless I was doing something stupid
07:20 PM Tom_L: looks like that affects the whole pannel not the widget
07:21 PM Tom_L: you'd probably have to find where the widget is defined and increase the pixels there
07:21 PM skunkworks: see the cute little slider.. http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/primus/Screenshot_2019-03-27_19-17-16.png
07:22 PM skunkworks: *bar
07:23 PM Tom_L: you want it longer?
07:25 PM pink_vampire: skunkworks: cuteeeeeeee
07:25 PM Tom_L: skunkworks what happens when you make the range 0-100 instead of 0-1?
07:26 PM Tom_L: err min max i mean
07:26 PM Tom_L: range defines color change
07:26 PM skunkworks: ame..
07:26 PM skunkworks: same
07:26 PM pink_vampire: why do you have negative Watts? antimatter?
07:27 PM skunkworks: deaccellerating...
07:27 PM Tom_L: probably hardcoded in the widget code
07:27 PM pink_vampire: Tom_L: no
07:28 PM Tom_L: i'm talking about the size of the widget he want's bigger
07:28 PM Lcvette: Tom_L: you need a spare hard drive for 2.8 rtpreempt
07:28 PM Lcvette: :D
07:28 PM Tom_L: i have one
07:28 PM Tom_L: 2
07:28 PM Tom_L: sry
07:29 PM Tom_L: no just one running preempt
07:29 PM pink_vampire: bigger meter? or bar?
07:29 PM Tom_L: pink, that's the plan
07:30 PM Tom_L: Lcvette i've got my machine config in the office as well
07:30 PM Tom_L: it faults on limit switches though
07:30 PM Tom_L: haven't bothered to fix that in the config
07:31 PM Lcvette: The probe basic sim limits work
07:31 PM Tom_L: i'd probably just turn em off in the ini
07:31 PM Lcvette: Needs the home sw for the atc
07:32 PM Lcvette: Needs to know the head height for tool changes
07:37 PM Tom_L: skunkworks look inpyvcp_widgets.py
07:37 PM Tom_L: calss pyvcp_bar
07:37 PM Tom_L: class*
07:38 PM Tom_L: change the self. sizes
07:38 PM pink_vampire: don't change
07:38 PM Tom_L: line 1126..1129
07:38 PM pink_vampire: just make it a variable
07:38 PM Tom_L: go ahead
07:39 PM skunkworks: Thanks!
07:40 PM Tom_L: master-lib-python...
07:41 PM Tom_L: it could be made variable
07:41 PM pink_vampire: skunkworks: don't hard coded to the inpyvcp_widgets.py, it will change all you of the bars in your panel
07:41 PM Tom_L: with current numbers as defaults
07:42 PM pink_vampire: Tom_L: yeah, this is how i did it
07:43 PM Tom_L: so post what you did
07:44 PM Tom_L: i don't know enough (anything) about python to set defaults and override them if a var is specified
07:45 PM pink_vampire: just add a variable to the def_init_( aaabbbccc="1212".......) and use the same variable for whatever you want to define
07:46 PM Tom_L: then if you pass it it changes it?
07:46 PM pink_vampire: correct
07:46 PM pink_vampire: the xml overwrite it
07:48 PM Tom_L: something like self.cw= canvas_width ?
07:48 PM pink_vampire: correct
07:49 PM Tom_L: but then you need an if statement to see if it's empty
07:49 PM Tom_L: right?
07:49 PM pink_vampire: no
07:50 PM pink_vampire: just use the default value in the def_init_
07:51 PM pink_vampire: so if you set def_init_(canvas_width="12" ...) this will be the value in case you dont sent it in the xml
07:56 PM Tom_itx: http://paste.debian.net/1074978/
07:56 PM Tom_L: like that?
07:57 PM Tom_L: skunkworks there's something you can work with if it doesn't work...
07:58 PM pink_vampire: yes exactly
08:00 PM Tom_L: i assume those numbers are pixels
08:01 PM pink_vampire: look like that
08:09 PM pink_vampire: https://i.imgur.com/GRQfdpX.png The happy End!
08:10 PM Tom_L: but you can't close the lid now
08:10 PM pink_vampire: i dont close it anyway
08:11 PM pink_vampire: it is open like that for years
08:17 PM Tom_L: woops i forgot a comma in that
08:18 PM pink_vampire: happen to the best of us
08:19 PM justan0theruser is now known as justanotheruser
11:08 PM Elmo40: pink_vampire, I too have a silhouette. only recently picked it up, though. haven't even tried to run it.
11:09 PM Elmo40: i did a firmware upgrade... BIG MISTAKE! The screen is now all flickery and crap! The notes in the firmware says 'fixed grey scale' or something like that... well, turns out they didn't.
11:09 PM pink_vampire: it is a grate machine
11:10 PM Elmo40: pink_vampire, where do you purchase pens and knives? and what is this underlay they mention... something to stick things to so it doesn't get all curled up when it goes into the machine?
11:10 PM pink_vampire: and the support is VERY good
11:10 PM Elmo40: i did email them. they replied back, but with no solution.
11:11 PM Elmo40: i asked if i can go to a previous firmware where the screen wasn't borked. no dice.
11:11 PM Elmo40: would you have a previous firmware file i can try?
11:11 PM pink_vampire: ebay, walmart, michaels, hobby lobby
11:11 PM pink_vampire: I never upgrade it
11:12 PM Elmo40: that is a nice selection of pens and such.
11:12 PM pink_vampire: let me see what version i have
11:12 PM pink_vampire: the original pens are JUNK
11:12 PM Elmo40: yeah. i shouldn't have either...
11:12 PM Elmo40: mine didn't come with pens. only 1 knife.
11:12 PM pink_vampire: the pens i have use gel pen from the dollar store as refill
11:13 PM Elmo40: did you get that from thingiverse? i'd like to print the same thing.
11:13 PM Elmo40: nice!
11:13 PM pink_vampire: i made it
11:13 PM Elmo40: gotcha
11:13 PM Elmo40: just a bunch of holes anyways ;-)
11:13 PM pink_vampire: the holes is the easy part
11:14 PM pink_vampire: try to measure the wadge there..
11:14 PM Elmo40: that top section is sloped?
11:14 PM pink_vampire: yes
11:14 PM Elmo40: nice...
11:15 PM Elmo40: i'm running my first Benchy. I think I picked the wrong infill pattern... says 2.6Hrs at default dimensions!
11:15 PM Elmo40: the wrong something, anyways.
11:16 PM pink_vampire: https://imgur.com/a/Z0RM30o
11:17 PM Elmo40: you cheated!
11:17 PM Elmo40: using a probe... LoL
11:18 PM Elmo40: very good use of the mill! i like it. who said they are only for removing material...
11:18 PM pink_vampire: this is the best way, so why not?
11:19 PM Elmo40: exactly
11:20 PM pink_vampire: I have a lot of probing macros, and way to export cloud points if i want.. so..
11:54 PM Elmo40: well... i'd be interested in that pen holder.
11:54 PM Elmo40: care to share the angles, or the CAD drawing? :-)