#linuxcnc Logs

Jan 06 2019

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:00 AM CaptHindsight: place it on the floor, give it a shove
12:04 AM elmo40: it won't fall over! staying put.
12:04 AM CaptHindsight: elmo40: it's been used for several years on thousands of machines
12:04 AM CaptHindsight: look at the buglist if you're interested in problems
01:17 AM Wolf_ITX is now known as Guest74257
01:24 AM sparq: Hey! Is there a PPA for Ubuntu 18.10 (cosmic)? Can't tell if not, or if my Google-fu is weak today.
02:39 AM Deejay: moin
02:39 AM XXCoder: hey
02:39 AM XXCoder: BAH why is buying batteries for devices a nightmare
02:39 AM XXCoder: so many fakies
02:41 AM Deejay: hehe
02:54 AM fragalot: Hmph. either I need to rework my algorithm, or do this electronic leadscrew thing some other way... Or i'm just too critical :P
02:54 AM XXCoder: whats issue so far?
02:55 AM fragalot: I've got a 0.0016% error when doing an M5
02:55 AM XXCoder: besides trying to find real batteries since I cant do that crap lol
02:55 AM XXCoder: m5 is stop spindle?
03:00 AM fragalot: M5 thread
03:00 AM XXCoder: oh
03:00 AM fragalot: actually I could reduce the error if I choose a different rpm
03:00 AM XXCoder: is your machine skipping steps?
03:00 AM fragalot: no, it's the math that doesn't work out to generate the exact frequency needed
03:00 AM XXCoder: ahh ok
03:00 AM fragalot: I could make it toggle between 2 nearby frequencies to compensate for it so the error doesn't build up though
03:00 AM gloops: i doubt anyone would notice that
03:00 AM fragalot: gloops: probably not. and my leadscrew is probably worse than that anyway, BUT STILL :D
03:00 AM fragalot: I'mma do the toggle method to keep the error from growing
03:04 AM gloops: oh quite a bit
03:06 AM renesis: wtf 0.0016%
03:06 AM renesis: they prob stretch more than that when you tighten them
03:07 AM XXCoder: what does 0.0016% mean when travel is 1m long
03:07 AM XXCoder: .001mm?
03:07 AM XXCoder: (error from travel)
03:07 AM fragalot: over a 20mm thread it would mean en error of 0.16mm
03:08 AM gloops: we used to talk about working to +- 4 thou for threads, going back some years lol
03:08 AM renesis: 0.000016m, so .016mm
03:09 AM gloops: if they arent precision drive threads - hardly relevant
03:10 AM renesis: fragalot: i got way less than that for 20mm
03:10 AM fragalot: sorry, 0.032mm over the full thread
03:10 AM fragalot: renesis: yeah I had my clock freq changed in my spreadsheet
03:10 AM renesis: that literally a fraction of a hair
03:11 AM renesis: is fine, it means the screws or nuts wont fall off
03:11 AM fragalot: sure, and it's acceptable if I make the threading function semi-automatic where it starts from a fixed index
03:11 AM XXCoder: 0.00126 inches quite small
03:11 AM fragalot: rather than hoping the frequency is spot-on and it always aligns like gears would
03:12 AM fragalot: so I have 2 options, either I add some self-correction features to it to keep it aligned at all times
03:12 AM fragalot: or I make it so the threading starts from a known index point
03:12 AM renesis: you need a dds generator
03:12 AM fragalot: i've got a 2 channel 200Mhz arbitrary waveform generator
03:13 AM fragalot: but that still doesn't align it with the spindle encoder
03:14 AM gloops: how is the motor geared to the spindle?
03:14 AM fragalot: i'm not sure why that matters, gloops ?
03:15 AM gloops: just trying to get my head round it, if you reduce the gearing...
03:15 AM fragalot: the spindle is belt driven
03:15 AM fragalot: the encoder is on the spindle itself
03:15 AM renesis: whats res like on the generator?
03:16 AM gloops: oh i see, this isnt like an A axis
03:16 AM fragalot: renesis: goes down to 1mHz
03:16 AM fragalot: gloops: basically I want to replace my change gears
03:16 AM renesis: in 1 mHz steps?
03:16 AM fragalot: renesis: eys
03:17 AM renesis: ha neat, prob is a dds gen
03:17 AM fragalot: except it has a 14bit analog output
03:18 AM fragalot: just looked up the spec sheet
03:18 AM renesis: dds is usually for sine wave output
03:18 AM renesis: 14b is massive, especially if filtered
03:18 AM fragalot: 16Kpts wavelength, 1µHz resolution, 16bit analog resolution
03:19 AM renesis: whats sample rate?
03:19 AM fragalot: and some magic to remove clock jitter
03:19 AM fragalot: 150MSa/s
03:19 AM renesis: nice
03:20 AM renesis: weird i wonder what that means, magic to remove clock jitter
03:20 AM renesis: like, for the sample rate or for output?
03:20 AM fragalot: output
03:21 AM fragalot: so you can ask it to do 1.0001Mhz and it 'l do it
03:21 AM renesis: right but its by repeating/skipping samples
03:21 AM fragalot: rather than giving you 1.00009Mhz for one cycle, and 1.00011 the next
03:21 AM fragalot: (which is my plan for my electronic leadscrew project)
03:21 AM renesis: maybe it interpolates
03:22 AM fragalot: no idea how it does it
03:22 AM renesis: like, 16k sample, 150 sample rate, would be repeating samples
03:23 AM fragalot: page 4: https://mediacdn.eu/mage/media/wysiwyg/siglent/Downloads/DataSheet/SDG1000X%20Datasheet-en.pdf
03:23 AM fragalot: also, it's a 60Mhz model, not 200
03:23 AM * fragalot remembered wrong
03:23 AM renesis: oh, yeah its a dds
03:23 AM renesis: sexy
03:23 AM renesis: its fixed point magic
03:23 AM fragalot: I'm wondering if it does it by abusing the rise & fall times of the signal combined with some analog wizardry
03:24 AM renesis: basically phase is calculated with like, 32 bits, or 48 bits
03:24 AM fragalot: sure, but even with fixed point magic, surely you're still bound to the CPU's clock rate
03:24 AM renesis: and then the most significant 16bits or whatever (depends on waveform sample length) are used for the wave table address
03:25 AM renesis: in practice, it will skip or repeat samples to make frequencies work
03:26 AM renesis: its not really dependent on sample rate and processing as much as phase accumulator word length and wavetable sizes
03:27 AM renesis: processing is like, a single addition and a 'divide' per sample output, quotes because the division is usually done by just ignoring the low bytes
03:27 AM fragalot: but none of that matters for a square wave?
03:27 AM fragalot: and the frequency jitter i'm talking about is exactly that
03:27 AM renesis: for square waves, its the same but you dont do a table lookup
03:28 AM renesis: you just compare to a value half of the phase accumulator max
03:28 AM fragalot: but you're still capped to the processors' clock rate, in terms of jitter
03:29 AM renesis: like, for ARB, in an FPGA, you would just connect the high bits of the phase accumulator register to the address input of the waveform memory
03:29 AM fragalot: I can't think of a way to guarantee a perfect arbitrary frequency if the clock dividers can't produce it
03:29 AM renesis: well, the sample rate i think
03:29 AM renesis: itll basically do the toggle thing you want automatically
03:30 AM fragalot: hm.
03:30 AM renesis: itll even do like, slow slow fast, itll do 99 slow samples and one fast samples if that makes it work
03:30 AM renesis: its kind of magic, its just fixed point tricks tho
03:31 AM renesis: but it mentions it does square waves different, so your thing maybe has a trick to change reference clock freq to try and get things even closer
03:32 AM renesis: https://www.analog.com/en/analog-dialogue/articles/all-about-direct-digital-synthesis.html
03:32 AM renesis: i really like this article, always end up refertencing it for little projects
03:33 AM * fragalot bookmarks
03:33 AM fragalot: tbh, all this electronic leadscrew project is, is nothing more than a fancy arbitrary frequency divider/multiplier
03:34 AM fragalot: ignoring latency, of course
04:53 AM jthornton: morning
04:54 AM XXCoder: yo
05:14 AM Loetmichel: elmo40: just pressed it in. holds well and doesent need any weld.
05:15 AM XXCoder: yo
05:15 AM Loetmichel: "morning" XXCoder
05:15 AM XXCoder: 3 am, morning enough for me
05:15 AM Loetmichel: and jthornton
05:15 AM Deejay: hey ya all :)
05:16 AM Loetmichel: <- 12:14 PM here... and i STILL just have risen from bed.
05:16 AM Loetmichel: the "" around the morning wasnt for you, it was for me ;)
05:16 AM XXCoder: lol ok
05:19 AM Loetmichel: maaan i am getting old. just remembered a coworker form a company 15 years ago... now i am trying to remember the other names... so far i found 4 of ~20 coworkers back then. Is Name memory loss normal when you reach 50? I can remember their faces... but the names are gone :-(
05:27 AM jthornton: I can't remember when I was 50...
05:27 AM XXCoder: never could rememebr names when I was 20, let alone at 42.
06:31 AM russian_troll: Tom_itx: Today's Log http://www.isaeff.net/logs/%23linuxcnc/2019-01-06.html
06:39 AM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
07:08 AM gloops: so..who was laughing at this lathe? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-Watchmaker-Lathe/323631436208? lol
08:20 AM elmo40: Loetmichel, nice. i guess the little grooves hold well. who requests this kind of rf suppression? Is it as simple as making a metal box enclosure?
08:22 AM elmo40: gloops, that can not be accurate enough to be a watchmaker lathe.
08:22 AM gloops: well thats what i said, it was only going for £6 i was going to buy it, they can have it for 180
08:23 AM fragalot: elmo40: depends on the watch you're making, and on how skilled (read: masochistic) you are
08:24 AM fragalot: that said - it is a pretty sorry looking thing xD
08:29 AM gloops: i thought it had been concocted from a bigger lathe cross slide, that does look like a lathe bed in itself though
08:30 AM fragalot: https://i.imgur.com/T6D88e1.jpg
08:42 AM syy__: i am definetly the upper one, fragalot :D
08:42 AM fragalot: I'm a blend of the 2
08:42 AM syy__: you think youre fancy, and still get slapped in the face by simple things? :D
08:43 AM fragalot: try to jump down the stairs where there are none
08:43 AM fragalot: or trip on the bannister halfway down :P
08:43 AM syy__: lol :D
08:47 AM Loetmichel: elmo40: mostly military and "services"
08:47 AM Loetmichel: it isnt as simple. it usually needs additional filtes on all outgoing wires and internal ferrites to keep EMI in check
08:49 AM syy__: just ordered a six-jaw-chuck-kit
08:49 AM syy__: haha
08:49 AM syy__: https://www.banggood.com/K13-100-6-Jaw-Self-Centering-Lathe-Chuck-100mm-Six-Jaw-Self-Centering-Chuck-Lathe-Parts-p-1161310.html?utm_design=41&utm_source=emarsys&utm_medium=Neworder171109&utm_campaign=trigger-emarsys&utm_content=winna&sc_src=email_2675773&sc_eh=8b5b75f4a4defadc1&sc_llid=8053799&sc_lid=105229698&sc_uid=9FhWAiEG7s&cur_warehouse=CN
08:50 AM syy__: already did the math how much hours i can put into it and still be cheaper than a similar röhm-sixjaw
08:50 AM syy__: (hint: a bunch)
08:50 AM fragalot: the jaws look interesting
08:50 AM syy__: yes - they are used for toolgrinding
08:50 AM syy__: to give clearance for the grindingwheel
08:50 AM fragalot: I see
08:51 AM elmo40: Loetmichel, the metal box, what would you say the amount of RF that reduces?
08:52 AM elmo40: syy__, that jaw is very much worth the cost!
08:53 AM elmo40: i couldn't produce one for so little
08:53 AM Loetmichel: elmo40: depends how "closed" it acutally is
08:54 AM Loetmichel: the large hole on the back for the battery compromizes it a bit. But i would guess about 15 to 20dB
08:54 AM elmo40: and what about the faraday cage? what is that good for?
08:54 AM Loetmichel: it is basically a faraday cage
08:54 AM elmo40: but it is not solid
08:54 AM Loetmichel: solid?
08:54 AM Loetmichel: it doesent have to be solid
08:55 AM Loetmichel: any "hole" in the cage will let RF thra up to 1/10 of the wavelenght
09:02 AM Loetmichel: or to put it another way: you cant have a (single largest dimension, a 1 thou "slot" is enough) hole larger than about 1/10 of the wavelenght you want to shield
09:02 AM Loetmichel: so if you want to shield up to 4ghz you better stay below 3mm holes
09:17 AM Loetmichel: *meh* mother in law just called. "that newfangled phone you kids installed here is blinking red all the time. It drives me nuts!"... so i had to remember the key layout of a phnoe i saw last half a year ago and walk here thru from memory how to clear the "missed calls" list... the things you do for family... :-(
09:18 AM fragalot: should 've put an enclosure around it
09:19 AM Loetmichel: fragalot: next time i am around at her place i will snip off the message LED ;)
09:19 AM fragalot: :-)
09:28 AM fragalot: syy__: so how are you planning to create the scroll for your new chuck kit? :P
09:45 AM elmo40: Loetmichel, have you used the RF absorbing paint?
09:45 AM elmo40: https://www.yshield.com/
09:45 AM Loetmichel: yes
09:45 AM Loetmichel: but not from that company
09:45 AM elmo40: i was going to paint my bedroom with it. maybe help us sleep a little better.
09:45 AM Loetmichel: and not for Sdip-27 level A
09:46 AM Loetmichel: only level N
09:46 AM Loetmichel: level B
09:46 AM Loetmichel: i dont think so
09:47 AM Loetmichel: unless you sleep right above a big transformer or radio transmitter RF wouldnt affect your body at all
09:47 AM Loetmichel: and even then its mostly just thermal or auditory
09:47 AM Loetmichel: not "electrical" problems
09:47 AM elmo40: is the main reason to do this for 'sensitive' places is that you can actually 'read' the rf coming off of something and sniff data?
09:47 AM Loetmichel: our body is shielded pretty well
09:48 AM Loetmichel: yes
09:48 AM elmo40: especially mine... a few spare tires to block RF ;-)
09:49 AM elmo40: i see. so it isn't about health reasons, it is about security. interesting. then banks shouldnt have bare machines!!
09:49 AM elmo40: all their monitors are standard! nothing is covered.
09:50 AM Loetmichel: indeed
09:50 AM Loetmichel: we can recover the display contents of a COTS 24" display from about 100m away...
09:51 AM elmo40: Loetmichel, looks like a lot of people make cases and covers!
09:51 AM Loetmichel: pretty funny if you see it the first time.
09:51 AM elmo40: plenty of competition out there?
09:51 AM elmo40: http://www.ospl.nl/sdip-27-level-a
09:51 AM Loetmichel: nope. about 5 companys in germany that are allowed the same in germany
09:51 AM Loetmichel: ospl is a competitior
09:51 AM elmo40: these guys have a lot less screws than you...
09:52 AM Loetmichel: they use more EMI gaskets i assume
09:52 AM Loetmichel: as i said: emi gaskets are expensive.
09:52 AM Loetmichel: :-)
09:52 AM elmo40: you haven't bought one to find out how they do it?
09:52 AM Loetmichel: nope
09:52 AM Loetmichel: no need to
09:53 AM elmo40: but how do you know your competition? how can you compare your product vs their product? and upsell the customer on your design?
09:53 AM Loetmichel: we get their stuff every now and then to "remeasure"... so we already KNOW how they do it ;9
09:53 AM elmo40: i see.
09:54 AM Loetmichel: reminding you that we are one of the very few germany companys that are allowed to certify such devices
09:54 AM Loetmichel: or recertify if they were opened
09:54 AM Loetmichel: so we get stuff from pretty much all our competitors occasionally to re-certify
09:55 AM Loetmichel: btw: for "biological" RF shielding i would recommend to not use LED or low voltage Halogen lighting in your living quarters.
09:56 AM Loetmichel: expecially not with long low voltage wires and SMPS "transformers"
09:56 AM Loetmichel: thats about 90% of the RF noise an any modern home
09:56 AM fragalot: LED lights are fun though
09:56 AM Loetmichel: and a bit of powerline land
09:56 AM Loetmichel: -d
09:56 AM fragalot: every now & again switching the LED lights off in my house arms the wireless alarm system
09:57 AM Loetmichel: fragalot: led lights are ok if they are high voltage and have the SMPS inside the socket
09:57 AM fragalot: Loetmichel: they still blast out tons of noise on the power lines
09:57 AM Loetmichel: the long lines on low voltage lighting that act as antennas are the problem
09:57 AM Loetmichel: fragalot: not NEARLY as much as the low voltage stuff
09:58 AM fragalot: still enough to ruin my FM radio reception & as I said, sometimes set off my alarm system
09:58 AM Loetmichel: yes
09:58 AM Loetmichel: try that with a few 10 feet of normal "speaker wire" between the SMPS and the LED/halogen
09:59 AM Loetmichel: and try to recive ANYTHING medium wave or short wave ;)
09:59 AM fragalot: :p
09:59 AM Loetmichel: its a few decades more power emitted and very wide band ;)
10:00 AM fragalot: nothing beats ye olde ring transformers for halogen
10:00 AM Loetmichel: indeed
10:00 AM fragalot: I know of lots of transfromer based halogen light systems that are older tham I am
10:00 AM Loetmichel: worst thing i had was an "imax b6" clone battery charger
10:00 AM fragalot: and I've yet to see a modern CFL or LED light last that long
10:00 AM Loetmichel: charging a battery drill on the other end of the company.
10:01 AM fragalot: haha
10:01 AM Loetmichel: coworker opened the door of the measurement chamber with the SA still running: instant overload from 50khz to 4ghz ;)
10:01 AM Loetmichel: THATS a wide band jammer if i have ever seen one ;)
10:02 AM fragalot: haha
10:03 AM Loetmichel: mind you: the charger was about 20 meters away from the chamber
10:04 AM Loetmichel: and the antenna is INSIDE the chamber
10:04 AM Loetmichel: and it STILL overloaded the analyzer when the door opened
10:05 AM fragalot: circling back to your COTS display thing
10:05 AM fragalot: can you really get the image just from the RF noise 100m away?
10:06 AM * fragalot puts on his tinfoil hat
10:12 AM elmo40: Loetmichel, have you tested different rf absorbing paints? do they help in your applications?
10:12 AM Loetmichel: they do
10:12 AM Loetmichel: but not for highest level stuff
10:12 AM Loetmichel: not enough absorption
10:12 AM Loetmichel: fragalot: we can
10:13 AM Loetmichel: its a bit scary, isnt it?
10:13 AM fragalot: I just feel sorry for who'mever is looking in
10:13 AM fragalot: :P
10:47 AM * SpeedEvil misread RF absorbing pants
10:48 AM CaptHindsight: hot pants
10:49 AM * SpeedEvil thinks of 'He's the sort of person that would stand on top of a mountain in a thunderstorm wearing copper armour, raise his sword to the heavens and scream all gods are bastards.'
10:52 AM CaptHindsight: elmo40: drilling and bending sheet metal is cheaper and easier than using coatings
10:52 AM SpeedEvil: And more reliable.
10:53 AM fragalot: and repeatable
10:53 AM CaptHindsight: they don't have a way to sinter the coatings
10:53 AM SpeedEvil: Coatings are hard to assure they have achieved the thickness and properties you hope
10:53 AM fragalot: and durable
10:53 AM fragalot: :P
10:53 AM fragalot: SpeedEvil: not hard, but harder than just knowing it's good
10:54 AM CaptHindsight: how hard depends on how skilled you are
10:54 AM SpeedEvil: And how much equipment you have, and how much control over the process you have.
10:59 AM SpeedEvil: 'does the can of spray vary in properties when it gets near the end'
10:59 AM CaptHindsight: can of spray, we aren't talking about the same thing
10:59 AM fragalot: if you are using a spray can you've already lost
10:59 AM CaptHindsight: it's interesting following the thought process
10:59 AM SpeedEvil: CaptHindsight: That was part of the point.
11:00 AM Loetmichel: you know that sketch with the nun and the priest?
11:01 AM Loetmichel: priest is working wood and hammering on his thumb. "SHIT!". Nun: "dont cuss, god doesent like it!"
11:02 AM Loetmichel: the priest hits his thumb again "DANG! SHIT!" Nun: "DONT CUSS, GOD WILL PUNISH YOU!"
11:02 AM Loetmichel: a while later he hits his thumb a thirt time "SWEET JESUS; SHITSHITSHIT!"...
11:03 AM Loetmichel: *A cracking thunder, a lightning from the sky, the Nun is just a speck of ash on the ground.
11:03 AM Loetmichel: Voice from above "SHIT; MISSED!"
11:03 AM Loetmichel: :-)
11:03 AM fragalot: germans really shouldn't be allowed near jokes... ;-)
11:04 AM Loetmichel: fragalot: it loses in translation, doesent it?
11:04 AM fragalot: that, and IRC loses all timing to it
11:04 AM Loetmichel: indeed
12:17 PM elmo40: Loetmichel, i read about the capability to 'see' a screen from behind it. i'd like to reproduce that! how is it done?
12:17 PM elmo40: not all screens run the same frequency so you'd have to adjust that.
12:25 PM elmo40: is it aluminum you use for the housings? or steel?
12:39 PM HighInBC: remote reading of screens with radio go back to crt days
12:40 PM HighInBC: if you use an SDR near a screen you and put a checkerboard pattern on the screen you see patterns in the emf
12:40 PM HighInBC: the details beyond that are beyond me
12:40 PM HighInBC: there was a defcon talk done by a woman about that, I don't remember the name
12:41 PM HighInBC: I imagine a fair bit of tuning would need to be done for any given screen to decode. But you could record easily enough and decode later in the lab
02:37 PM treats: What are you goto sources for cnc bits? I primarily only cut wood, if that matters.
02:37 PM treats: I usually use https://www.ebay.com/str/carbideplus or toolstoday or amazon.
02:38 PM Jymmm: treats: what coutnry you in?
02:38 PM gloops: seems a bit expensive treats
02:40 PM gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-175-X-22mm-Single-Flute-Spiral-Carbide-CNC-Router-Bits-Milling-Cutter/112880603025
02:40 PM gloops: obviously that supplier is no good to you, but have a look round on ebay for the best deals
02:40 PM treats: US
02:41 PM treats: East Coast, if that matters.
02:41 PM treats: So, if you're looking for a new bit, you'll start at ebay, typically?
02:41 PM Sabotend_ is now known as Sabotender
02:42 PM Jymmm: treats: For wood, I LOVE CMT (brand) router bits
02:42 PM gloops: i do yeah, i am only a diy user atm though, ive found those cheapo bits to be just as good as the expensive ones - the endmills and so on
02:42 PM gloops: lets face it nobody is going to sharpen a 3mm endmill when they are £1 each
02:44 PM fragalot: Jymmm: I don't even have any bits that aren't from CMT or Trend any more :P
02:45 PM Jymmm: fragalot: and Fraus SUCK ASS big time
02:45 PM fragalot: never heard of fraus
02:45 PM gloops: for profiled cutters fancy stuff maybe, i bought a trend dovetail bit a while ago because they had an extra long one
02:45 PM Jymmm: FRUAD (something liek that, they are red)
02:45 PM fragalot: freud
02:45 PM gloops: Freud?
02:46 PM fragalot: i've never seen those 'round these parts
02:46 PM gloops: theyre ok lol
02:46 PM fragalot: CMT is popular, and a shitty brand called kreator
02:46 PM gloops: i dunno i only use them at diy speeds, how they work on industrial routers idk
02:46 PM Jymmm: Yeah, Freud, piece of shits
02:46 PM fragalot: kreator is the most popular one in shops, but i'm fairly sure the carbide teeth are in fact just little nubs of cast iron
02:47 PM gloops: those chinese endmills cut wood like diamonds
02:47 PM fragalot: chinese carbide is OK if you have low expectations, and no need to keep tolerance between toolchanges
02:49 PM gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trend-S66-11X4MMSTC-3-96MM-END-MILL-WOOD-ACRYLIC-ABS/192458691096?
02:49 PM gloops: right Trend £20 for ONE, no noticeably better performance
02:49 PM gloops: or £1 each from china, throw away prices
02:50 PM fragalot: the difference is more noticable on acrylic & metals
02:50 PM gloops: possibly, when the Trend is still sharp - but a dull Trend wont be as crisp as a new chinese one
02:50 PM fragalot: surface finish, tolerances between toolchanges (again, production environments), and the corners
02:50 PM fragalot: sur
02:50 PM fragalot: e
02:51 PM fragalot: I think a quarter of my endmills are chinese carbide
02:51 PM gloops: plus breakages costs
02:51 PM fragalot: and I grab those for roughing through scale & casting grit
02:51 PM gloops: i need boxes of ten anyway, i sweep quite a few up lol
03:00 PM fragalot: I like ToT's tap handle
03:00 PM fragalot: might make one, because i'm sick of those crappy chinese ones
03:03 PM gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/STRONGHOLD-TAP-AND-DIE-SET-WITH-TAP-WRENCH-COLLET-KEY/173726182413?
03:03 PM gloops: wonder what they are
03:06 PM syyl: old&rusty?
03:07 PM fragalot: they are going to be for someone else :P
03:10 PM gloops: not original pieces anyway
03:11 PM gloops: they all want the old stuff - these dont slip https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Tap-Wrench-engineering-tool/273635178063?
03:22 PM fragalot: slipping isn't the issue I have. it's more that all of the tap wrenches i've got work loose so you have to re-tighten them every 2 turns
03:24 PM fragalot: gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Myford-lathe-complete-with-extensive-tooling/192774182049?_trkparms=aid%3D333200%26algo%3DCOMP.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20180409081753%26meid%3D51e9f08d9e5344b58e37db8585aa8085%26pid%3D100008%26rk%3D7%26rkt%3D7%26sd%3D392194287774%26itm%3D192774182049&_trksid=p2047675.c100008.m2219
03:25 PM fragalot: you know the bed is in perfect shape when it includes a wire wheel as one of the accessoires
03:25 PM syyl: what is it with machines that look like they sat on the bottom of the sea?
03:25 PM syyl: its hard to differenciate the machine from the ground it sits on
03:25 PM fragalot: syyl: that's called a patina
03:25 PM syyl: so rusty and dirty it is
03:25 PM fragalot: xD
03:25 PM syyl: i would use much stronger words.
03:25 PM fragalot: I used to work in a blacksmith's shop nearly 10 years ago
03:26 PM fragalot: everything there looked like that, and it's easy to explain why
03:26 PM gloops: trusty old myford, still cheap
03:26 PM syyl: trusty old wreck at the moment
03:26 PM fragalot: crappy farmers' concrete floor that abrades away, poor to no shielding from the wind inside
03:26 PM fragalot: and so much clutter that it's a pain in the arse to pick up a broom, so nobody does
03:27 PM fragalot: and if you do sweep the floor, a dust mask is not optional for the next 2 hours
03:27 PM syyl: :D
03:27 PM gloops: thats only where theres been condensation - surface rust, my frying pans get like that
03:28 PM fragalot: should 've kept them seasoned, gloops :P
03:29 PM gloops: shouldnt use wire scourers on them really
03:29 PM fragalot: speaking of things collecting dust though
03:29 PM fragalot: syyl: are you ever going to finish that steam engine :P
03:29 PM syyl: maybe :D
03:29 PM syyl: i moved it today
03:29 PM fragalot: gloops: funny story, my mother in law came over a few years ago
03:30 PM fragalot: first thing she did was offer to do the dishes, immediately taking out a very coarse steel scourer pad she had with her & go to town on our new tefal teflon coated pans
03:30 PM syyl: she came over with a steel scrub pad?
03:30 PM syyl: her everyday carry?
03:31 PM fragalot: syyl: yea - they were on a camping trip 'round europe
03:31 PM fragalot: she uses it for their (sigh) stainless camping cookware
03:31 PM syyl: ;D
03:32 PM Jymmm: teflon? camping???
03:32 PM fragalot: Jymmm: that was in my home kitchen
03:32 PM gloops: thats the trouble with teflon pans, and glossy worktops
03:32 PM fragalot: when they stopped by
03:32 PM fragalot: gloops: not really, we just wipe them out
03:32 PM fragalot: I have a zero-tolerance policy for scourers of any sort in the kitchen
03:33 PM * Jymmm loves his cast iron pans =)
03:33 PM fragalot: Jymmm: same. simple wipe'n'go most days
03:35 PM fragalot: I wish ebay had a filter to remove sellers that sell both tooling, AND clothing
03:35 PM gloops: heres what the myford could look like https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stunning-Myford-Super-7-power-cross-feed-lathe-Beeston-Nottingham-Machine/202472039175?
03:36 PM syyl: i bought my best tooling from chinese sellers that had water faucets, insert tooling and wedding dress
03:36 PM fragalot: it could indeed look & perform like new, if you put about 25k worth of hours in it
03:36 PM SpeedEvil: For that price, it needs to come with an operator.
03:37 PM syyl: haha
03:37 PM syyl: 12k pound
03:37 PM syyl: thats what in eur
03:37 PM fragalot: syyl: before or after march?
03:37 PM syyl: 14k eur
03:37 PM syyl: that will buy you a pretty stinkn good weiler toolroom lathe
03:37 PM syyl: in perfect condition
03:37 PM fragalot: but weiler doesn't have a famous youtuber that casts things in his garage
03:38 PM gloops: buying a piece of british history there though, you could charge people to have a go on that
03:38 PM SpeedEvil: Is 12K original price with interest?
03:38 PM fragalot: lmao
03:38 PM SpeedEvil: Perhaps?
03:38 PM syyl: he will never sell that lathe for that price
03:38 PM fragalot: can't blame him for trying
03:38 PM fragalot: I mean, it's nottingham. there are some rich nutters 'round those parts
03:39 PM fragalot: he sells all of the loose components in his bargain basement
03:40 PM fragalot: I wonder if you add all of them up together to build a new lathe what you'd end up at price wise
03:40 PM renesis: what you got against stainless cooking stuff?
03:40 PM fragalot: renesis: using a non-stainless coarse (think lathe birdsnest) scourer on it
03:40 PM fragalot: completely undermining the stainlessness (is that a word?)
03:40 PM SpeedEvil: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MYFORD-DEEP-LATHE-CABINET-TRAY-Direct-From-Myford-ML7-SUPER-7-SIGMA/111170190524 Well - when you go by this price, it's quite reasonable.
03:41 PM fragalot: LOL
03:41 PM fragalot: 60 sold!
03:41 PM renesis: fragalot: even with metal scorers everything just rinses out?
03:41 PM gloops: think thats a an error
03:41 PM fragalot: renesis: you've contaminated the stainless already
03:41 PM syyl: sellers do that when they are on vacation
03:41 PM SpeedEvil: Or nearly out of stock
03:41 PM renesis: wtf contaminated
03:41 PM syyl: but want to keep the auction online
03:41 PM SpeedEvil: If you actually run out, then you lose the '60 sold'
03:42 PM fragalot: renesis: same reason you do not use the same wire brush on steel & stainless.
03:42 PM fragalot: or use both in the same sandblaster
03:42 PM renesis: when ive cleaned stainless with metal scouring pads, ive never had rust issues after
03:42 PM syyl: dont you like your stainless a bit rusty?
03:42 PM renesis: its never happened
03:42 PM fragalot: renesis: probably because your scouring pads are also stainless
03:42 PM renesis: nope
03:43 PM renesis: theyre half rusted and disintegrated by the time im done
03:43 PM fragalot: lovely
03:43 PM renesis: its not normal for me to even have that stuff around, but what youre talking about doesnt seem to be a thing
03:43 PM SpeedEvil: shop humidity has a big effect
03:43 PM fragalot: tell that to the food industry we build machines for
03:43 PM renesis: thats diff
03:44 PM fragalot: I like to be consistent.
03:44 PM syyl: contamination of stainless by normal carbon thing is a thing
03:44 PM renesis: just because theirs commercial rules regarding it doesnt mean you hit stainless with metal and its going to rust to shit
03:44 PM syyl: *facepalm*
03:44 PM fragalot: renesis: it does though. we've had it happen DURING production of some of our stuff
03:44 PM renesis: yeah i like my stainless because i can burn shit slightly in it for flavor, and it cleans up fine
03:45 PM fragalot: after we'd sent it out for sandblasting by someone that also did not believe in it
03:45 PM renesis: well are you scouring them, to clean them or using machine tools to finish them?
03:45 PM renesis: -,
03:45 PM fragalot: neither - just a normal sponge, they just wipe out because of the polish in them
03:45 PM fragalot: if it's burnt on, just soak it for a bit & it wipes right out
03:46 PM renesis: negative
03:46 PM fragalot: sure. tell me that the thing i've been doing for the past 15 years doesn't work.
03:47 PM SpeedEvil: Different conditions, different shit happens.
03:47 PM renesis: ^
03:47 PM fragalot: SpeedEvil: Weird that :-)
03:48 PM gloops: slightly more modern https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/engineering-latheWorking-order-Please-call-for-more-details/163466305884?
03:48 PM Deejay: gn8
03:49 PM fragalot: clean shop floor around it.. that might be an alright buy for someone
03:51 PM syyl: at least it doesnt look like it was burried in a pile of crap for 10 years ;)
03:51 PM gloops: for nothing atm
03:51 PM syyl: looks descent - i like the very wide dovetail of the cross slide
03:52 PM syyl: even with a wiper in place (if the wiper works is the other thing)
03:52 PM gloops: http://www.lathes.co.uk/kerry/page2.html
03:52 PM fragalot: I still need new wipers for the schaublin
03:52 PM fragalot: not fond of felt.. I want proper rigid rubber wipers
03:52 PM Rab: https://austin.craigslist.org/tls/d/round-rock-brand-new-bobs-cnc-machine/6788249820.html
03:52 PM fragalot: but I can't for the life of me find them anywhere
03:52 PM Rab: How does that gantry support its own weight?
03:53 PM syyl: with a lot of hope and faith?
03:53 PM renesis: what do you mean how
03:53 PM syyl: "oh please almighty, dont let my gantry break apart"
03:53 PM fragalot: Rab: it's a calibrated flex
03:53 PM renesis: with mated structural components made of wood
03:54 PM gloops: not bend a board vertically
03:54 PM syyl: well, it worked obviously :D
03:54 PM renesis: thats what the DIY community accepts as functional
03:54 PM gloops: well, not for the force that is going to apply
03:54 PM syyl: the question is, how well
03:54 PM SpeedEvil: It could have been moderately rigid if it'd filled in the other sides of the box
03:54 PM fragalot: SpeedEvil: you have to leave something for the user to upgrade
03:54 PM fragalot: so they can feel good about themselves
03:54 PM SpeedEvil: And added some depth probably
03:54 PM gloops: they work fine, thats like an aeroplane wing, you dont need lots of material, its all about the shape
03:55 PM SpeedEvil: gloops: yeah. Which is wrong.
03:55 PM SpeedEvil: gloops: That's going to twist like a pretzel
03:55 PM fragalot: gloops: it's a box section structure without the box part
03:55 PM syyl: open cross sections will flex like crazy
03:55 PM renesis: Makers 3d printed on tools that would sway massively with X axis movements for a decade
03:56 PM renesis: if the shit moves unloaded, its a win, anything more is icing
03:57 PM SpeedEvil: On the plus side, it'll burn well.
03:57 PM fragalot: SpeedEvil: it's ply though
03:57 PM syyl: and give you cancer
03:57 PM renesis: you can compost it!
03:57 PM fragalot: so it won't even do that right :P
03:57 PM gloops: i cant see if those ribs have a connecting rod, it wont twist so easily - to move one you have to move them all
03:57 PM gloops: could be better though
03:57 PM fragalot: gloops: this is why i'm happy you're not in the bridge building business
03:57 PM renesis: im sure itll route fine at 10krpm and 3 IPM
03:58 PM SpeedEvil: gloops: to have much twisting resistance, you need lots of structure at the outside.
03:58 PM SpeedEvil: with either whole sheets, or X cross-bracing to stop those squares turning into parallelograms
03:59 PM gloops: lol, ive seen those before cant remember the name, only nema 17 motors and a palm router, its for engraving, v carving not ploughing plywood sheets up
03:59 PM SpeedEvil: A 6" box of 1/2" thick ply, with bracers at every 6" - whole - will be really rigid
04:00 PM gloops: yes
04:00 PM renesis: itll grow when humid
04:01 PM renesis: aluminum extrusion isnt that expensive
04:01 PM fragalot: but alu expands when it gets hot in summer
04:01 PM renesis: wood will dry out and warp and i doubt the expansion is going to be that much
04:01 PM fragalot: :P
04:02 PM renesis: welded steel square tube is prob the best solution
04:02 PM gloops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZIwgXlHxkc&t=230s
04:02 PM renesis: wtf MDF
04:03 PM renesis: that shit is going to crumble
04:04 PM gloops: lol, learning machine maybe, they sometimes make an mdf machine to cut the ally parts for a better machine
04:04 PM fragalot: that's the way it's done, build cheap & have it upgrade itself :P
04:05 PM fragalot: that way you get to spend more time with it
04:05 PM fragalot: rather than making stuff
04:23 PM sparq: Plywood is a really interesting material when it comes to precision. It has really, really good dimensional stability within the plane of the material, and better strength-to-weight than aluminum to shear forces.
04:24 PM sparq: When it gets humid, it gets thicker, but that's it.
04:25 PM sparq: So, if you design your machine carefully, you can get surprisingly precise and repeatable operation.
04:25 PM zeeshan: lol
04:27 PM sparq: That machine doesn't look like it's designed to convert the torque and vibration into shear, but I'd have to take it apart to know for sure.
04:35 PM sparq: I have a 3D printer with a plywood frame, and our machine shop had a much, much more expensive version in aluminum, and it sucks. When the AC kicks on and cools the room by 3 or 4 degrees, the expansion of the extrusion parts opens the gap between the nozzle and the bed enough to slip in a piece of printer paper.
04:36 PM sparq: It's quieter, though, and more robust to undergrads. So I guess it wasn't a bad purchase.
04:37 PM sparq: (Well, I guess the parts contract when the AC comes on, but the way it's put together opens a gap rather than closes it.)
04:38 PM SpeedEvil: sparq: design is hard!
04:47 PM sparq: It is! I guess I'm more impressed by how well the plywood machine performs that I'm dissapointed in the aluminum machine. We spent a long time peering at dial gages and boggling at how good it is.
04:48 PM sparq: It's almost nine years old now, and still accurate to within 10-15 microns in X-Y, and about 1-3 microns in Z.
04:49 PM sparq: Though, it isn't throwing around anything as heavy as a router spindle...
04:53 PM XXCoder: hey zeeshan
04:53 PM XXCoder: was wondering how you was doing
05:58 PM zeeshan: hi XXCoder hows it going
05:59 PM XXCoder: little bit under the weather but ok. you?
06:00 PM zeeshan: just trying to get this design done for work =/
06:00 PM zeeshan: so much pressure to get it done
06:00 PM XXCoder: engineers
06:01 PM XXCoder: sometimes im jelious, sometimes im glad im not one
06:02 PM zeeshan: i guess most jobs have their up and downs
06:02 PM zeeshan: sometimes i wish i didnt have to think
06:02 PM XXCoder: yeah even aspects you like sometimes feel quite down
06:02 PM XXCoder: thankfully not common
06:30 PM Wolf_ITX is now known as Guest58349
06:44 PM Wolf_ITX_: jthornton: around?
06:45 PM XXCoder: hey wolf
06:45 PM Wolf_ITX_: hey
06:48 PM elmo40: why are weekends so short? i thought technology was to help us not work so much!
06:58 PM Wolf_ITX_: weekend? work days where most parts stores are closed IMO
06:59 PM Wolf_ITX_: see if I can figure out how to set up this 7i96...
07:03 PM zeeshan: hey guys i want some opinions on this
07:03 PM zeeshan: i run into this issue all the time and i have to always do some sort of welding to get around it... im sure there is a more elegant way to do this
07:04 PM zeeshan: basically i have a flat plate 3/8" thick
07:04 PM zeeshan: i want to join another 3/8" thick plate perpendicular to the first one
07:04 PM zeeshan: i always have to end up welding them
07:04 PM zeeshan: im willing to profile the plates to fasten them together
07:05 PM zeeshan: there has to be a way to do it without welding or trying to tap holes on the side of the plate
07:06 PM XXCoder: cant buy T extrudes of same metal?
07:06 PM XXCoder: if its thick enough you can make it mill all sides
07:06 PM Wolf_ITX_: dovetail? tape?
07:07 PM zeeshan: no XXCoder
07:07 PM zeeshan: i want to use standard plate
07:09 PM Tom_L: what's wrong with welding it?
07:09 PM zeeshan: distortion, cost
07:09 PM zeeshan: it like 5x cheaper to profile and assemble
07:09 PM Tom_L: how big?
07:09 PM zeeshan: vs use a welder fitter
07:09 PM zeeshan: no particular size
07:09 PM Tom_L: what about T material?
07:10 PM zeeshan: i guess i wasnt clear
07:10 PM zeeshan: =/
07:10 PM zeeshan: hehe
07:10 PM Tom_L: 2 plates
07:10 PM zeeshan: i'm overly simplifying the joint
07:10 PM Tom_L: one perp to the other
07:10 PM zeeshan: this joint can happen in much more complicated ways
07:10 PM zeeshan: lemme try to take ap ic sec
07:11 PM Tom_L: you gotta join it somehow...
07:13 PM XXCoder: rub fuse it
07:15 PM zeeshan: lol
07:17 PM zeeshan: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPtyAoAHe7q6lokKL-sSnjPgldAcZsfAcQ9sXg2kiUYezFxKaci-qM4btbSOLmMMQ?key=ZVpibF8yMHdyZmZoS2ppRDBkRlVaX0dCY0RSa3h3
07:17 PM zeeshan: for example that
07:17 PM zeeshan: theres 2 typical choices that i'd use to join the flat piece with the channel piece
07:17 PM zeeshan: weld.. or tap the channel through its thickness
07:17 PM zeeshan: which is really a waste of time!
07:18 PM zeeshan: ive seen another trick with profiling..
07:18 PM XXCoder: or make it from single block
07:19 PM XXCoder: very expensive
07:19 PM zeeshan: $
07:19 PM zeeshan: if i had to make say 20 of them
07:19 PM zeeshan: then that would definitely be something i'd consider
07:19 PM XXCoder: well could do post-weld mill clean
07:19 PM XXCoder: make parts extra thick
07:20 PM zeeshan: already do that..
07:20 PM zeeshan: $
07:20 PM XXCoder: weld anneal it, then mill to size
07:21 PM XXCoder: honestly best hoice so far for money is bore tap and bolt em on
07:21 PM Tom_L: pour them then machine the critical parts
07:22 PM Tom_L: anything you do won't be as cost effective as welding or bolting
07:22 PM XXCoder: tom casting yeah forgot that option
07:23 PM gregcnc: i'm surprised welding isn't cost effective enough, if the design can't be simplified in some way to avoid two parts
07:23 PM Tom_L: may be less than you think
07:24 PM Tom_L: make it from one piece then bolt or tack the top flange after you bend it up
07:24 PM Tom_L: you want more accuracy than that though
07:24 PM Tom_L: cause i see a slide
07:24 PM zeeshan: ill show you one trick i know that is cheaper than welding and machining through thickness
07:24 PM zeeshan: but its not as secure
07:24 PM XXCoder: zeeshan: ya know, why do just 2 bends? why not do 3?
07:25 PM zeeshan: xxcoder definitely
07:25 PM XXCoder: make it from one peice, bend it at bottom joint as well as 2 already pictured
07:25 PM zeeshan: this isn't the final piece
07:25 PM zeeshan: this is just an example to figure out better ways to joint plates together
07:25 PM zeeshan: frigging computer lagging!
07:25 PM Tom_L: that's what i was suggesting
07:26 PM Wolf_ITX_: have to fight spring back with 3 bends on that part
07:26 PM zeeshan: im working over remote desktop
07:26 PM XXCoder: Tom_L: oh understand yours now
07:26 PM Tom_L: true
07:26 PM gregcnc: other than wleding and fastening, what do you do? elmer's glue?
07:26 PM Tom_L: big magnets :D
07:26 PM zeeshan: you use fastening with profile
07:26 PM zeeshan: tricks
07:26 PM zeeshan: :D
07:27 PM gregcnc: sure, get creative
07:27 PM Tom_L: V grove the parts
07:27 PM Tom_L: slide them together
07:27 PM Tom_L: not as strong
07:27 PM XXCoder: okay im not too familiar with welding, but would making small grooves on T part for C part touch and weld make for even stronger joint
07:28 PM XXCoder: also make it cannot move while welding
07:29 PM zeeshan: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPtyAoAHe7q6lokKL-sSnjPgldAcZsfAcQ9sXg2kiUYezFxKaci-qM4btbSOLmMMQ?key=ZVpibF8yMHdyZmZoS2ppRDBkRlVaX0dCY0RSa3h3
07:29 PM zeeshan: thats a trick ive seen used before
07:29 PM gregcnc: ikea kit
07:29 PM zeeshan: :D
07:30 PM renesis: three bends, spot weld
07:30 PM Tom_L: not very strong
07:30 PM Tom_L: can move
07:30 PM zeeshan: if that's utilized well
07:30 PM Tom_L: unless you pin it too
07:30 PM Wolf_ITX_: add tabs
07:30 PM zeeshan: it works pretty good
07:30 PM Tom_L: you said you didn't wanna drill
07:30 PM Tom_L: do you punch that shape in the side?
07:31 PM Tom_L: big nibbler would do that
07:31 PM zeeshan: most of our formed parts are profiled using waterjet/plasma/laser
07:31 PM XXCoder: oh hmm bolt nuts dont nuts cost more than tapping C part for bolts?
07:31 PM zeeshan: so it pretty much costs nothing to put in a notch like that
07:31 PM zeeshan: XXCoder: nope
07:32 PM Rab: You could tack the nut into the notch.
07:32 PM zeeshan: im sure theres some other tricks people have seen that allow you to do similar stuff
07:32 PM XXCoder: i guess it dont cost all that much since its only small order
07:32 PM zeeshan: rab totally agreed that would cause no distortion
07:32 PM XXCoder: Rab: nice idea
07:32 PM renesis: rab: then why not tack weld a triple bent piece
07:32 PM zeeshan: distortion is the reason it gets so expensive
07:32 PM Tom_L: it's gonna pull at the slot
07:32 PM Tom_L: so it doesn't contact the whole surface
07:33 PM Tom_L: dunno what forces are on it
07:33 PM gregcnc: have you bent parts that close to a feature like that?
07:33 PM XXCoder: you'd have to bolt it on make sure its properly aligned before you tack nuts on
07:33 PM zeeshan: gregcnc: example don't get so picky :P
07:33 PM gregcnc: well shit,.. real world
07:33 PM zeeshan: haha
07:33 PM zeeshan: i know man
07:33 PM zeeshan: not my first gig :P
07:34 PM zeeshan: i run into this fastening problem a lot
07:34 PM gregcnc: what do customers say?
07:34 PM zeeshan: it bothers me
07:34 PM zeeshan: im liking wolf's idea about tabs also
07:34 PM renesis: why not just have a tab on the side of the T that mounts to the stage
07:35 PM renesis: single bend
07:35 PM gregcnc: tha't what I mean about simplify, but this is a real example appearently
07:35 PM gregcnc: nor do we have the whole picture
07:36 PM renesis: left image, turn the bottom joint to a bend, single tack weld at top joint
07:36 PM renesis: or eliminate the U mounted to the stage, and have a bent tab on the right of the T that mounts to the stage
07:37 PM gregcnc: sorry this "isn't" a real example
07:37 PM zeeshan: renesis: i'm trying to find ways to fasten these parts together
07:37 PM zeeshan: as is
07:37 PM zeeshan: not completely change their form
07:37 PM renesis: or do the 3 bend piece, but use some off the shelf small angle bracket to mount the top with two bolts
07:38 PM renesis: without any welding?
07:38 PM zeeshan: things like the notch, tapping through thickness, and tabs are ways that i can see working to join these things together
07:38 PM zeeshan: *notching
07:38 PM zeeshan: im wondering if there are more ways to join them
07:38 PM renesis: at the end of the U against the T, have two inward bent tabs flat on the T, bolts and nuts
07:38 PM zeeshan: more tools in the belt to do the job can't hurt!
07:39 PM zeeshan: yes that would work
07:39 PM Tom_L: / \ the end and match it on the other part then slide them together and pin or bolt
07:39 PM renesis: dovetails.
07:39 PM Tom_L: ^^
07:39 PM zeeshan: how would you use dovetails in this case?
07:40 PM renesis: that would actually be super pimp, not the end of the world to cut
07:40 PM Tom_L: dovetail the C and slot the T
07:40 PM renesis: cut them across the T
07:40 PM renesis: yeah
07:40 PM zeeshan: oo
07:40 PM zeeshan: that is a nice idea.
07:40 PM renesis: rly?
07:40 PM renesis: heh
07:40 PM Tom_L: then pin or bolt with a 'holding' bolt
07:41 PM renesis: nice
07:41 PM Tom_L: make sure you scrape them too for accuracy :D
07:41 PM zeeshan: hahaha
07:41 PM Rab: Man if you just used a cube of solid steel, you'd be done by now.
07:41 PM zeeshan: rofl rab
07:41 PM renesis: inward tabs is pretty universal, decemt mounting flats
07:41 PM Tom_L: too much machine time
07:41 PM renesis: yeah even drill time
07:41 PM zeeshan: rab i definitely like billet machining
07:42 PM renesis: oh
07:42 PM zeeshan: just trying to expand my brain
07:42 PM renesis: steel square tube
07:42 PM zeeshan: vs doing the same old thing again and again
07:42 PM renesis: saw to size, done
07:42 PM renesis: rab with the inspiration
07:43 PM Tom_L: you could machine a cast piece but you said you wanna use what they've already got
07:43 PM Tom_L: alot less machine time
07:43 PM renesis: im totally confused on the requirements but im logging the hours
07:44 PM gregcnc: there are no requirements
07:44 PM zeeshan: heres an example of what i actually did in the past..
07:44 PM gregcnc: Zee is really asking about alternate methods of tee joints for 3/8" plate
07:45 PM renesis: thats 3/8"?
07:45 PM Tom_L: apparently
07:45 PM renesis: oh
07:46 PM renesis: can we tap things?
07:46 PM Tom_L: he didn't want to
07:46 PM gregcnc: only requirement is: cheaper than dirt
07:46 PM Tom_L: so machine round bar on the end of the C and poke holes in the T to match then spot weld them on the back side of the T
07:47 PM Tom_L: less distortion
07:47 PM zeeshan: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPtyAoAHe7q6lokKL-sSnjPgldAcZsfAcQ9sXg2kiUYezFxKaci-qM4btbSOLmMMQ?key=ZVpibF8yMHdyZmZoS2ppRDBkRlVaX0dCY0RSa3h3
07:47 PM renesis: https://www.mcmaster.com/91771a199
07:47 PM zeeshan: last 2 images
07:47 PM zeeshan: they ended up being machined parts
07:47 PM renesis: cheaper than dirt is one part, 3 bends, tack weld
07:47 PM zeeshan: believe it or not, it was cheaper to machine those vs welding then machining
07:48 PM zeeshan: everything bolted together
07:48 PM gregcnc: how?
07:48 PM renesis: looks tapped?
07:48 PM zeeshan: yes it was tapped
07:48 PM renesis: okay then for this thing, bunch of #8 screws, maybe flat
07:48 PM gregcnc: damn, are teh welders driving Porsche?
07:48 PM Tom_L: you said that was out
07:48 PM zeeshan: Tom_L: i said it is something ive done in the past :P
07:48 PM renesis: make a weld bot
07:49 PM zeeshan: its really not the greatest way because you need to oversize plates
07:49 PM renesis: its a single weld and youre an automation company
07:49 PM zeeshan: to be able to tap em
07:49 PM Tom_L: zeeshan did you catch my last idea?
07:49 PM Tom_L: kinda far fetched
07:49 PM Tom_L: but an option
07:49 PM zeeshan: casting would take a while
07:49 PM Tom_L: no
07:49 PM Tom_L: machine rounds on the end of the C
07:49 PM Tom_L: and poke holes in the T
07:50 PM Tom_L: then spot them on the back
07:50 PM renesis: or smash them with a hammer
07:50 PM renesis: unf unf unf
07:51 PM zeeshan: so the round ends are like registers?
07:51 PM zeeshan: or dowels
07:51 PM zeeshan: ?
07:51 PM Tom_L: dowels would slip
07:51 PM Tom_L: how you gonna attach them to the C
07:51 PM renesis: interference fit
07:51 PM Tom_L: and still get it flush
07:52 PM Tom_L: you could drill side holes and weld them to the C also
07:52 PM renesis: not sure it has to be flush :\
07:52 PM Tom_L: appears that it does
07:52 PM renesis: i mean if were welding, he can just weld whats in the CAD image
07:52 PM Wolf_ITX_: seeing that its a water jet part might as well tab the C and make matching rectangle holes in the T part
07:52 PM Tom_L: he wants less distortion
07:53 PM Tom_L: the spots would do that i believe
07:53 PM renesis: i think he just wants to machine it into a block of 6061
07:53 PM zeeshan: i dont think ive spot welded 3/8 plate before
07:53 PM zeeshan: but it could really just be plug welded?
07:53 PM Tom_L: well, leave the dowel shallow and fill the hole
07:53 PM Tom_L: yeah
07:53 PM zeeshan: Wolf_ITX_: and weld the tabs after?
07:53 PM renesis: is this holding like, a duck or an elephant?
07:54 PM Wolf_ITX_: probably weld yeah
07:54 PM renesis: would make welding faster
07:54 PM renesis: get the camry driving welders on it
07:54 PM Jymmm: JB Weld
07:54 PM zeeshan: yea and need less of it
07:55 PM gregcnc: why is welding so costly at your shop?
07:55 PM zeeshan: it's not
07:55 PM renesis: i think with welding it makes sense to do the whole thing one piece
07:55 PM zeeshan: but profiling and forming is definitely a lot cheaper
07:55 PM renesis: cut welding in half
07:55 PM zeeshan: by like i would estimate 8x the cost
07:55 PM zeeshan: cause you'd just bolt things together
07:55 PM zeeshan: and itrs good to go
07:55 PM renesis: you could do the tabs to locate/hold things before welding
07:56 PM zeeshan: theres no messing around with sending it for stress relief
07:56 PM zeeshan: then machining
07:56 PM zeeshan: etc
07:56 PM renesis: is bending drama?
07:56 PM zeeshan: no not at all
07:57 PM renesis: 3 bends, eleminate the low joint, tab the top joint to locate, hold with 2 or 4 screws
07:57 PM Tom_L: if you bent the T first then the C you could do it in one piece and get the bend angles you need
07:57 PM renesis: or weld or glue or whatever
07:57 PM Tom_L: then weld the top
07:57 PM renesis: yeah, T bottom bend first
07:57 PM gregcnc: we are looking at an existing part that had different assembly idea in mind when designed.
07:58 PM renesis: and you just get it so it doesnt interfere with the C bends
07:58 PM gregcnc: that's different than designing with somethign else in mind
07:58 PM zeeshan: gregcnc: lol
07:58 PM gregcnc: for real
07:58 PM zeeshan: damn designers man
07:58 PM zeeshan: :D
07:59 PM zeeshan: thanks for the ideas :P
07:59 PM gregcnc: https://www.thefabricator.com/article/shopmanagement/the-power-of-sheet-metal-design
07:59 PM zeeshan: rofl gregcnc
07:59 PM gregcnc: on the right track obviously, but hard to implement after the fact
07:59 PM renesis: that seems so janky
07:59 PM zeeshan: first image is the crucifix cutout
08:00 PM renesis: its got some tab trick to locate
08:00 PM zeeshan: i feel like that would work but its sketchy
08:00 PM zeeshan: if the load was perpendiular to the bolt axial direction
08:00 PM zeeshan: it'd just slip out of the crucifix cutout
08:01 PM Tom_L: you could add a pin
08:01 PM gregcnc: detail is here https://static.thefabricator.com/a/the-power-of-sheet-metal-design-sheet-metal-design.jpg?size=1000x1000
08:02 PM zeeshan: i think if we combine all the ideas from above
08:02 PM zeeshan: the C and T piece need to be formed from one piece
08:02 PM gregcnc: yes
08:02 PM zeeshan: the place we were talking about welding at the top flange
08:02 PM zeeshan: youd use this cross cutout
08:02 PM Tom_L: possibly yes
08:02 PM gregcnc: looks like thigs would overlap though
08:03 PM XXCoder: that'd be 2 less nut
08:03 PM zeeshan: it'd just be there for some more strength
08:03 PM Tom_L: you'd have to get the bends right
08:03 PM zeeshan: at the end of the day all design is tetris
08:03 PM gregcnc: well maybe
08:03 PM zeeshan: :)
08:03 PM gregcnc: yeah
08:03 PM gregcnc: have fun
08:03 PM gregcnc: oh, when will that lathe be running?
08:03 PM Tom_L: hahaha
08:04 PM * zeeshan decides to go with a solid block of steel
08:04 PM zeeshan: :)
08:04 PM * Tom_L ventures a guess
08:04 PM zeeshan: what lathe
08:04 PM XXCoder: that large lathe machine you bought to restore to full function
08:05 PM gregcnc: did you scrap it to park the wife's car?
08:05 PM zeeshan: i cast it into a base for my mill
08:05 PM zeeshan: i have exciting plans for that lathe
08:05 PM gregcnc: do I remember spindle issues with the mill?
08:05 PM zeeshan: no spindle issues
08:05 PM gregcnc: maybe someone else
08:06 PM zeeshan: horizontal tool changer issue
08:06 PM zeeshan: it was leaking through the rotary union
08:06 PM zeeshan: all replaced
08:06 PM gregcnc: cool
08:06 PM XXCoder: isnt yours have removable head so it can be vertical or horzional mill
08:06 PM gregcnc: have any work?
08:06 PM zeeshan: ya
08:06 PM zeeshan: no time for work
08:06 PM zeeshan: day job takes all the time now!
08:07 PM Wolf_ITX_: day jobs suck
08:07 PM gregcnc: putting too much effort in, slow down and you'll have plenty of time to get the lathe running
08:07 PM zeeshan: gregcnc: its an investment in myself
08:07 PM zeeshan: if i learn i can apply it to other things
08:07 PM zeeshan: the thing that really bothers me about my lathe
08:08 PM zeeshan: and also older machinery in general is these ancient boxways
08:08 PM zeeshan: they're garbage
08:08 PM zeeshan: they work, but they will wear again eventually
08:08 PM zeeshan: modern stuff has nice linear bearings
08:08 PM sync: box way is best way
08:08 PM zeeshan: you wear em, change em out
08:08 PM zeeshan: done
08:08 PM sync: better than dovetails for sure
08:08 PM zeeshan: i dont have time for this scraping stuff
08:09 PM gregcnc: oh how bad was it?
08:09 PM zeeshan: i think big linear bearings bear boxways
08:09 PM zeeshan: gregcnc: it's not worn out badly
08:09 PM zeeshan: just speaking out theoretically
08:09 PM gregcnc: nobody fixes them
08:09 PM zeeshan: i have the itch for a modern machine
08:10 PM gregcnc: they just make the operator program 3 tapers while trying to hold a few tenths on long part
08:10 PM zeeshan: haha
08:10 PM zeeshan: the main reason im excited about the lathe project is
08:10 PM zeeshan: im going to be messing with rockwell ethernet ip drives
08:11 PM zeeshan: and planning to use VPL servos
08:12 PM gregcnc: keep us updated
08:12 PM gregcnc: i have to go
08:14 PM zeeshan: cya
08:20 PM XXCoder: free tap wrench plans https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHoHNt1NOZs
08:20 PM XXCoder: doubt I will need it i dont like that style tap lol
08:30 PM Rab: XXCoder, me neither...I can't see an advantage, or why anybody would prefer it. I guess it's intrinsically balanced, if that helps the feel?
08:30 PM XXCoder: maybe its better when tap is quite large
08:30 PM XXCoder: i only have hand tapped small diameter ones
08:31 PM XXCoder: including that riciously long and thin one lol
08:31 PM XXCoder: rad was less than mm yet it was inch long in depth
08:32 PM XXCoder: machine tool is 5 inches long before it turns into inch long tapping part
08:32 PM XXCoder: its custom
08:34 PM Rab: I have a 3/4-14 NPS tap I regularly use in plastic, but it's a pain. I made a holder to chuck it in a power drill, but the runout is awful. I'm thinking of building a special little rigid tapping machine just for that one operation.
08:38 PM XXCoder: could use one of those cheap cnc machines for that?
08:39 PM pfred1: I have a cheap CNC machine
08:39 PM Rab: It's a lot of torque at the start, although it's just a through hole in a polycarbonate enclosure.
08:40 PM Rab: I was thinking about one of those cheap chinese 4th axes, with the chuck.
08:41 PM pfred1: I'm wondering where my cheap Chinese diamond hones got off to
09:36 PM Wolf_ITX is now known as Guest34367
09:37 PM Guest34367 is now known as Wolf_ITX_
09:38 PM Wolf_ITX_: hmm crap, I think I need to redo this linux box, cant get hostmot2 to work
09:56 PM pfred1: redo?
10:23 PM Wolf_ITX_: reinstall or something
10:38 PM elmo40: why would a reinstall help? did you mess with config files?
10:55 PM Wolf_ITX_: what config, running a hacked together mint install, I think I installed a few things wrong