#linuxcnc Logs

Dec 19 2018

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:23 AM miss0r: mornin
01:42 AM Deejay: moin
04:08 AM miss0r: Gah! One of those days!... I had a quite long stickout on a part that I had to part off. not having much choice, I decided to give it a go. Sure enough, it snatched up...
04:08 AM miss0r: Trying to safe the part I put it in the cold saw to cut it off there.. Saw wanders!
04:08 AM miss0r: SCRAP!
04:11 AM miss0r: to make matters worse; i didn't have the a size quite fitting for the part. So I had to turn it down from a quite large piece. ALOT of work wasted
04:18 AM XXCoder: aw :(
04:43 AM rmu: why not saw it off on the lathe
04:59 AM jthornton: morning
04:59 AM XXCoder: hey
05:09 AM Tom_L: morning
05:15 AM Tom_L: 39°F Hi 55... brought to you by global warming
05:22 AM XXCoder: global warming is why it doesnt rain here in summers anymore
05:46 AM Loetmichel: *MAAAN what a [censored]*... 12th 2mm tungsten carbide broken off... in PVC... bad thing if you have to grind down the shaft to plunge cut 26mm deep into a block of plastic with a 2mm two flute that has only 12mm cutting lenght originally and then the plastic swarf bakes to the ground shaft...
05:58 AM SpeedEvil: Loetmichel: Just drill a through hole in the drill and pump coolant in
05:59 AM Loetmichel: SpeedEvil: i think a bit of 8 bar air and a fine nozzle aiming at the mill bit tip would be better
06:00 AM Loetmichel: considering that the PVC block is glued to the machine with water soluble double sided tape ,)
06:00 AM Loetmichel: problem is: i have 6 mill bits left... and still half a dozen parts to cut...
06:13 AM rmu: Loetmichel: why don't you drill that with a twist drill
06:14 AM rmu: at least a pilot hole
06:53 AM Loetmichel: rmu: slotting parts out of the 26mm thick plate
06:54 AM Loetmichel: an no, not rectangular outline, that would be to simple ;)
06:55 AM XXCoder: nonecludian?
06:55 AM Loetmichel: just curved corners
06:55 AM XXCoder: ah not THAT complex than ;)
06:56 AM Loetmichel: ... and some dents on the long sides to accomodate other parts it will interlock with ;)
06:57 AM XXCoder: :)
06:58 AM rmu: Loetmichel: drill pilot holes at some strategic places. PVC probably works better with 1-flute HSS?
06:59 AM Loetmichel: probably..just none at hand
06:59 AM rmu: pilots could be smaller, e.g. 1.5mm
06:59 AM Loetmichel: and i doubt they would stay straight at 2mm diameter and 26mm deep cut ;)
07:00 AM Loetmichel: a hss mill bit i mean ;)
07:02 AM rmu: whatever. the proof is in the pudding.
07:23 AM Loetmichel: rmu: dont misunderstand me, i am gradeful for the advice, but it wouldnt work here for the lack of HSS tooling
07:24 AM Loetmichel: only thing i have at hand are 1/8" mill bits in tungsten carbide and 2 flute for aluminium (polished flutes)
07:29 AM Loetmichel: grateful
07:39 AM gregcnc: didn't the quote include the required tooling?
07:47 AM rmu: probably one of those "ASAP" or "needs to be done in next 30 min" jobs
07:50 AM gregcnc: neither coincides with breaking 12 tools
08:07 AM Loetmichel: rmu: "customer was assured that the parts are in the usps wagon since yesterday" type of job, correct
09:16 AM Loetmichel: gregcnc: the "quote" is just "oh, we forgot that the front lids of those 24PCs we want to deliver yesterday are missing some plstic inserts, do something, Loetmichel!!!!111"
09:17 AM Loetmichel: i.E: we are already behind on building them and now i noticed that noone ordered those parts
09:17 AM Loetmichel: and the stock PVC i have here is barely enough to make them if i only take 2mm cuts around the parts
09:35 AM gregcnc: sounds well organized
10:01 AM Loetmichel: indeed
10:05 AM Loetmichel: that whole order was chaotic from the start.. i had built the prototype last year and before i could make a parts list it was sent to the customer.
10:06 AM Loetmichel: that is biting us now when the customer ordered "24 of that box EXACTLY identical please!"
10:06 AM Loetmichel: and of course before end of year... budget maintaining you know?
10:14 AM PL7icnc: Hi Some Germans Here
10:17 AM PL7icnc: Seems this Channel is only alive on late USA Timezone
10:21 AM PL7icnc: off we go
10:22 AM rmu: hmm. this PL7icnc guy is very impatient
10:27 AM Loetmichel: indeed
10:27 AM Loetmichel: especially because i happen to know that germans are here
10:27 AM Loetmichel: :-)
12:06 PM fragalot: rmu: The Old Fox definitely has a plan, and it is obviously visible here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz_k5_T5nUk
12:07 PM rmu: hihi... "such a stupid woman"
12:07 PM fragalot: it gets better
12:08 PM rmu: the whole british parliament is somewhat funny
12:09 PM * fragalot murmurs right honorable lady murmur BOOOOOOOOO
12:09 PM fragalot: all they're missing is vuvuzelas
12:11 PM fragalot: OUDEERVES
12:11 PM fragalot: :P
12:13 PM rmu: that is some pissing contest. all caps.
12:14 PM fragalot: there is a technical term for this
12:14 PM fragalot: it's called "unworking"
12:15 PM fragalot: don't sabotage.. just obstruct
12:37 PM fragalot: evenin' gloops
12:38 PM gloops: evening
12:42 PM Loetmichel: fragalot: at least the british parliament is restrained enough to not have brawls every other day... saw a few pictures of some east european countrys parliament where (according to the picture text) a fistfight to clear the disagreement seemed to be the usual way of solving problems ;)
12:42 PM fragalot: wasn't that hungary? :D
12:43 PM Loetmichel: may be
12:43 PM Loetmichel: cant remember
12:45 PM gloops: yes the little leader called Theresa May a 'stupid woman' today
12:46 PM gloops: personally i dont see anything wrong with that, but you know, political correctness and all
12:46 PM fragalot: depends on which way you want to swing the stick
12:46 PM fragalot: obviously if it is in your own interest to say it's mysogeny, you will.
12:47 PM fragalot: if it isn't, then 'woman' just means.. well, what it means.
12:47 PM gloops: yes thats how it works
12:47 PM gloops: even if it wasnt an attack on every female who ever lived, the opposition will try to spin it as such
12:49 PM rmu: tear gas in parliament
12:50 PM gloops: mostly pantomime
12:51 PM gloops: the brits seem to judge leadership qualities by a persons ability to deliver searing personal attacks in a civil manner, and also how the same is received
12:53 PM fragalot: whats' civil about moaning out of turn
12:54 PM gloops: yes that was very civil, thats why its been noticed
12:54 PM gloops: wasnt
01:24 PM rmu: https://youtu.be/CM3VKQlrXso?t=16
01:26 PM fragalot: love the little poke
01:27 PM gloops: chimps arent actually our ancestors
01:27 PM Inline: koalas are ?
01:27 PM Inline: lol
01:27 PM gregcnc: you've seen black friday sales in the US?
01:28 PM gloops: we have a common ancestor with chimps
01:32 PM andypugh: I would rather have a chimp as an ancestor than be a chimps ancestor
01:34 PM Loetmichel: gloops: isnt that hypotetical ape called the "missing link" for exactly the reason that there are no fossils of it?
01:34 PM Loetmichel: that ancestor of both chimps and humans
01:34 PM gloops: not much difference anyway, we share about 80% of dna with snails
01:35 PM gloops: Loetmichel i think theyve pretty much filled in the gaps now
01:35 PM gloops: some large bumbling ape like creature laid around in a warm forest
01:35 PM Loetmichel: yes, but still didnt find fossils of it as far as i know
01:36 PM fragalot: gloops: did it have large feet?
01:36 PM gloops: yes with hair between the toes fragalot
01:36 PM fragalot: seems we have more in common than I originally thought
01:44 PM fragalot: lovely windows update bug here
01:44 PM fragalot: I can't listen to headphones, or stream to an external device, without having the internal laptop speakers on
01:44 PM fragalot: muting those speakers, also mutes the external device
01:44 PM fragalot: lowering the volume of those speakers, also lowers the volume of the external device
01:45 PM andypugh: Isn’t that what you want?
01:45 PM andypugh: :-)
01:45 PM gloops: .../format C:
01:45 PM fragalot: I want to hear my 603 series B&W speakers, not this tinny crap :D
01:45 PM fragalot: especially because there is a time delay between the 2
01:46 PM gloops: i had something similar on PC, went right by itself
01:51 PM gloops: well, there are no used single phase motors for sale anywhere near me, when there have been loads all year
01:55 PM rmu: i have RGB speakers
01:56 PM * fragalot pets rmu
01:58 PM gloops: ive also received a voucher from machine mart - VAT free on ÂŁ50 +
02:00 PM fragalot: 'tis the season
02:23 PM andypugh: MachineMart sell motors. But not very good ones
02:25 PM gloops: yeah i just had a look andypugh, never had one off them and cant imagine them being great, probably be ok for what i want though, ill see if anything comes up on marketplace or ebay local i think for a while longer
02:26 PM andypugh: Where are you?
02:27 PM gloops: near rotherham
02:27 PM gloops: its not urgent just a little project
02:27 PM andypugh: There are probably some in my dad’s workshop. I will be up there on Saturday.
02:28 PM andypugh: Likely to be old-school ones with centrifugal switches.
02:28 PM gloops: well, i wouldnt go to any trouble or anything
02:28 PM fragalot: i've got a load of sheet metal jobbo's, and a few waterpump motors
02:29 PM fragalot: both are good options if you have zero requirements for start-up torque, noise, or general durability
02:30 PM gloops: ive got an old delta but only 1/6th HP, need at least 1/2 preferably more
02:31 PM gloops: the old motors seem better to me
02:32 PM fragalot: they are typically more overbuilt, yeah
02:33 PM andypugh: I have a 1/2 hp but it’s hooked up to a VFD for general bodgery uses, and so I think I would prefer to keep it.
02:34 PM gloops: ive got a 3/4 but its the original for a myford wood lathe, pretty reluctant to use it for a saw
02:34 PM andypugh: My christmas project just hit a snag, the company I ordered a critical thing from just refunded the order. No explanation, just a paypal refund.
02:36 PM fragalot: gloops: set up a line shaft
02:36 PM gloops: ive had a couple of those 'sorry your item isnt in stock do you want to wait or have a refund' recently, only small things though
02:36 PM gloops: i think its a scam of kinds - they never did have UK stock its coming from china
02:37 PM gloops: fragalot i have to move stuff about to use it lol, line shaft wouldnt really work
02:37 PM fragalot: there's a name for that... banggood has asked me if I was interested in donig that
02:37 PM fragalot: forgot what they called it
02:37 PM fragalot: drop shipments
02:38 PM gloops: annoying when youre waiting for something to complete a job
02:38 PM gloops: like would have been here by the time i got the message
02:44 PM * fragalot hates how youtube decided that it should start translating certain YT video titles
02:44 PM fragalot: but only some of them
02:44 PM fragalot: and only half of the title
02:44 PM fragalot: ._.
03:10 PM fragalot: well. I tried something, and that's made it worse. :D
03:10 PM fragalot: now my laptop's speakers are nowhere to be found anymore in windows' device list or settings.. and all they play is what the microphone picks up
03:11 PM fragalot: the microphone is also gone fom the settings
03:20 PM rmu: just got a new laptop today, came with win10 home. not possible to set up account without so-called "security questions".
03:20 PM rmu: got rid of it and installed ubuntu lts
03:21 PM rmu: don't understand why anybody wants to use windows
03:34 PM andypugh: Well, it looks likely that the Arduino Nano doesn’t have enough memory to handle the Fwd Kinematics of a Faro arm
03:34 PM andypugh: But then it only has 2k
03:35 PM andypugh: So I guess I will use an Itsy Bitsy M4 instead, whoch has 100x the memory amd 10x the CPU (at least)
03:43 PM Deejay: gn8
04:08 PM Tom_L: andypugh why are you trying to run a Faro arm with an arduino?
04:08 PM andypugh: Why not?
04:08 PM Tom_L: just wondered if there was a specifc reason
04:08 PM andypugh: Mainly because I have an 8 channel 24 bit ADC card that speaks SPI, and that’s easy with Arduino
04:10 PM Tom_L: do they interface it with any cad packages?
04:10 PM rmu: do you really get 24 bits out of it? that seem like a hell of dynamic range
04:11 PM andypugh: It is reading 5 places of decimals stable.
04:11 PM andypugh: So no, but it;s not bad
04:11 PM rmu: 5 places is about 17bits
04:11 PM andypugh: And that’s running of USB power
04:12 PM andypugh: With stabilised reference voltages it might do better.
04:12 PM andypugh: Maybe I will feed it from a lab PSU and see what happens.
04:12 PM rmu: you have to take care of parasitic thermocouples, leak currents and electrochemical elements if you really want to get near 24bit
04:13 PM andypugh: Indeed. That will all come later if I ever get it working
04:14 PM rmu: you are measuring potentiometers?
04:14 PM rmu: variable resistors?
04:14 PM andypugh: I have one of these, I wonder if the output is stable? https://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/101381/Bench-PSU-adjustable-voltage-Gossen-Metrawatt-SLP-120-40-0-40-Vdc-0-6-A-120-W-No-of-outputs-1-x
04:15 PM andypugh: Yes, the arm has potentiometers in the joints
04:15 PM andypugh: I havent done and calculations yet of accuracy or linearity.
04:15 PM Tom_L: non certified
04:15 PM rmu: then supply voltage variation should not matter if you take it as reference (rationmetric measurement)
04:15 PM Tom_L: but they say it's good nuf
04:16 PM andypugh: (I found mine in a skip, but I am struggling to see the justification for the price)
04:17 PM rmu: 40 V 6 A 120 W seems odd
04:18 PM andypugh: If you are interested, this is the ADC board. https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/&_nkw=ADS1256
04:18 PM andypugh: The ADS1256 is a TI chip. Whether the ones from China have ever been to Texas is a different question.
04:19 PM rmu: when i get my stm32f373 16 bit ADCs to perform i will upgrade to 24bit ;)
04:19 PM Tom_L: i had some spi max chips i think were 20 or 24 bit
04:20 PM andypugh: The ItsyBitsy M4 has enough ADCs to run the arm itself, but 12 bits seems to be asking a bit much.
04:23 PM andypugh: I am wondering how to calibrate the joint angles. It’s quite a puzzle
04:23 PM andypugh: I did buy a vernier protractor a while ago, but I don’t trust it
04:23 PM rmu: is this a CMM arm?
04:24 PM Tom_L: yes
04:24 PM andypugh: Yes, sort of.
04:24 PM Tom_L: do they give an output voltage / angle relation in the docs?
04:24 PM andypugh: It was what Faro made before they realsied that there was a market for CMM arms. It was designed to measure skeletal deforities
04:24 PM andypugh: Docs?
04:24 PM Tom_L: no docs?
04:25 PM Tom_L: in the data sheet
04:25 PM andypugh: It tells you how to plug it in to the PC (which, apparently, has s 287 maths coprocessor)
04:25 PM rmu: and different joint angles can lead to the same "pose" of the end?
04:26 PM andypugh: Yes, but forward kins is the easy kins
04:26 PM rmu: then you probably could put the end on some fixed position / orientation and wiggle around with the joints
04:26 PM andypugh: In fact it is theoretically possible to derive the DH parameters from measuring fixed points using different joint positions and using clever maths
04:27 PM rmu: i remember evil stuff like jacobi matrices and numerical "algorithms" that won't converge ;)
04:27 PM rmu: brr
04:28 PM rmu: didnt touch stuff like that in 15 years
04:28 PM andypugh: This, by the way, is why I don’t trust my vernier protractor: https://photos.app.goo.gl/bu9TtBQtyxYtGYvS8
04:29 PM andypugh: Something very Chinese about that.
04:29 PM rmu: hehe
04:30 PM andypugh: (As in, they have sent it out the door at minimum cost without the most rudimentary of checks)
04:31 PM rmu: seems less than hald a degree off
04:31 PM andypugh: Well, yes, but if that’s as good as it gets it might as well not bother with the vernier
04:32 PM andypugh: It’s reasonably nicely made. It’s just wrong,
04:32 PM rmu: it has a resolution of 2 arcmins, thats about 4 decimal places for the circle
04:33 PM rmu: so not nearly good enough to index your arm even if it was accurate
04:34 PM andypugh: I have one of these too https://goo.gl/images/X7ZDAV
04:35 PM andypugh: Which is probably more reliable (I stole it off my dad, given that he can’t walk or really see or talk, he won’t miss it :-(
04:36 PM rmu: sorry to hear that.
04:36 PM andypugh: It’s not a great situation.
04:36 PM rmu: hmm. you could try a sine-plate and gauge pins / gauge blocks
04:37 PM rmu: to create a very precise angle and then align the arm parallel to it
04:37 PM andypugh: Sine bars aren’t good for big angles.
04:37 PM rmu: combination of sine bar and granite angle blocks
04:37 PM andypugh: I am thinking of an aluminium plate with V-blocks to clamp the arms at zero, +90 and -90 angles
04:41 PM andypugh: The elbows don’t really lend themselves to accurate clamping or measurement. https://photos.app.goo.gl/ipbcgNpF8WXKLTF89
04:42 PM andypugh: There are two joints in that picture. The wrist is probably even harder than the elbow to set to zero. (it doesn’t help that the two elbows each side have dfferent offsets)
04:43 PM andypugh: Actually, that’s not true, having re-checked.
04:43 PM andypugh: So it’s fairly easy with a flat plate
04:43 PM rmu: the joints don't have some sort of index switch?
04:44 PM andypugh: No, as they are absolute potentimeters
04:45 PM andypugh: (I suspect that bringing the arms back for calibration and cert was their main income stream)
04:45 PM rmu: so the question is how is that calibration done
04:46 PM rmu: i would probably try the inverse kinematics approach
04:46 PM andypugh: I imagine with quite expensive jigs
04:46 PM andypugh: (Also, they made them, they knew the dimensions)
04:47 PM rmu: hmm. not knowing the arm lengths is a problem.
04:48 PM rmu: i think one of the stmbl guys should know about faro arms
04:52 PM andypugh: He does, he owns lovely one, maybe two.
04:52 PM andypugh: But I think he is using the original controller.
04:52 PM andypugh: (I saw it in Stuttgart, were you there?)
04:53 PM rmu: yes i also was there
04:54 PM andypugh: I am terrible with names, especially when folk don’t use their real names. :-)
04:54 PM rmu: AFAIR the arm didn't really work that well
04:55 PM andypugh: Given the overlap between here, Stuttgart and EMFcamp I think that there are only actually a few dozen real people in the word.
04:55 PM rmu: you were the guy with the emco clone ?
04:56 PM andypugh: No, but I was the one who spent all the time working on it.
04:56 PM rmu: hehe.. ok
04:56 PM andypugh: And I don’t think it’s a clone
04:57 PM rmu: the bed and ways looked exaclty like my emco compact 8, perhaps somebody rebranded something or joint venture or whatever
04:57 PM andypugh: It is a Denford Orac.
04:58 PM andypugh: Denford: http://www.lathes.co.uk/viceroy/index.html
04:59 PM andypugh: Orac: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmjPk4hzRXM
04:59 PM andypugh: (No, really, that is where the name comes from)
05:01 PM rmu: there seems to be no end to british scifi series in the style of dr who ;)
05:01 PM rmu: didn't know that thanks
05:03 PM andypugh: Blake’s 7 was pretty good (and rather dark)
05:04 PM andypugh: Also, the baddie was nastier than Darth Vader, and a lot cuter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrrieRETtQQ
05:06 PM rmu: i will have to check out the whole series methinks...
05:15 PM andypugh: I wonder if there is a higher res version likely?
05:15 PM andypugh: I can’t believe we used to watch VHS :-)
05:16 PM * jthornton still has a VHS but doesn't know if it will even work with the new TV
06:39 PM Tom_L: jthornton, burn em all to DVD
06:40 PM Tom_L: https://www.amazon.com/slp/convert-vhs-to-digital/curhvwtw75x48wn
07:45 PM infornography: I want nachos
07:46 PM norias: bummer
07:47 PM infornography: life is pain
07:48 PM norias: true
08:55 PM veek: what's 5x50x110 wrt drill bit sizes.. 110 is the length and 5 is the dia.. what's 50?
08:59 PM Rab: veek, guessing flute length...or maybe shank.
09:01 PM Rab: Or 5mm dia, 50mm length, 110 degree tip.
09:01 PM infornography: https://www.ewarehouse.atkc.com.my/bosch-sds-plus-1-drill-bit-6mm-d-x-50mm-l1-x-110mm-l2
09:02 PM -!- #linuxcnc mode set to +v by ChanServ
09:04 PM infornography: Working length (L1): 50.0mm?
09:04 PM infornography: I guess flutes then
09:06 PM veek: ah thank you!
09:38 PM flyback: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mg06Mvj78PU <---- SOMEONE PWNED HIS arm with wanker.c
10:32 PM ziper: I used one of those combinations drill and tap for the first time
10:32 PM ziper: worked better than expected
10:43 PM MarcelineVQ: they're pretty neat, some even have a chamfering blade at the end to clean the hole edge
10:43 PM MarcelineVQ: well, countersink I guess you'd call that
10:46 PM roycroft: i just did a bunch of marking up timber with one of the new mechanical pencils i ordered from japan
10:46 PM roycroft: i have to say, it works brilliantly
10:46 PM roycroft: it's all but impossible to break a lead
10:46 PM roycroft: the tip of the pencil is cone-shaped where it enters the body, and it rotates around when you put pressure on the lead, so the lead does not snap off
10:47 PM roycroft: and they're cheap
10:47 PM roycroft: the only drawback is it takes about a month to get them
10:47 PM roycroft: but i would say they're game changers for folks who use pencils on a regular basis in a shop
10:48 PM roycroft: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00NN3YZ1G
11:08 PM renesis: roycroft: you can just buy uni kuru toga?
11:08 PM renesis: i've been using them for over four years
11:09 PM renesis: your link looks like a zebra knockoff, anyway I've never had problems getting them fast
11:09 PM renesis: https://www.amazon.com/Mechanical-Pencil-Slide-Model-M54521P-24/dp/B017BDDZ7I
11:09 PM renesis: this model has slide pipe, almost impossible to snap lead, using it exclusively for two years
11:10 PM renesis: i used the original without the slide pipe for two years before that, about as good
11:11 PM renesis: i also have an original 0.7mm one that i like using, normally i cant stand 0.7
11:12 PM renesis: anyway, if the zebra is as good, then yes, its a paradigm shift in pencils
11:16 PM energies23423: hi
11:16 PM energies23423: broad question: Is there some machined part, or even non-metal part if you're familiar, that because of technology, wages, etc., is eligible to compete with imports?
11:16 PM energies23423: I was interested in having a contract manufacturer make something, if possible, and trying to distribute it
11:16 PM renesis: roycroft: looks like the zebra has suspension?
11:17 PM renesis: the people who love it seem mostly worried about breaking leads, lots of them like it more than kuru toga, tho
11:17 PM renesis: shrug
11:21 PM renesis: yeah it seems like these have better feel and less breakage, but the kuru togas spin better and write sharper. togas feel kind of funny because theres maybe half mm of compression for the rachet mechanism
11:22 PM renesis: would maybe prefer the kuru toga slide pipe to the zebra cone tip, my pencil lead is never extended close to as much as in these zebra pencil images
11:24 PM renesis: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61VUT9BRTvL._SL1200_.jpg
11:24 PM renesis: def the money shot