#linuxcnc Logs
Nov 01 2018
#linuxcnc Calendar
02:02 AM miss0r: mornin'
02:44 AM Deejay: moin
02:58 AM miss0r: Ahh. the feeling when your newly machined parts just slide together! :)
02:58 AM miss0r: But then you realize a pin hole has wandered on you...
02:59 AM Deejay: to expect it to be perfect on the first try is little too much ;)
03:00 AM miss0r: hehe. yeah. I know what went wrong anyway. but it still sucks
03:01 AM miss0r: To safe setups in the mill, I bored out some holes in the first operation, where the locking pins are just sneaking into the side. Then I drilled them afterwards, and somehow feel it is okay to be surprised the holes wandered... bah
03:01 AM fragalot: mornin'
03:01 AM miss0r: It speaks! :P
03:01 AM fragalot: sometimes
03:02 AM fragalot: most of the time I get the point across with a series of well timed grunts
03:02 AM miss0r: hear hear :]
03:02 AM fragalot: miss0r: have you ever managed an IIS server?
03:02 AM miss0r: Not in so many details
03:03 AM fragalot: because apparently it is possible to poke it in such a way that it's randomly injecting http headers in the middle of the page content
03:03 AM miss0r: I managed the host server and the virtual servers running it
03:03 AM miss0r: sounds interresting :D
03:03 AM fragalot: :D
03:03 AM miss0r: I only have PHP based sites running now. and they are also on the way out
03:04 AM fragalot: so why did you decide to drill a hole with only half the drill bit engaged?
03:04 AM miss0r: to safe time. so I had to do the part over
03:04 AM miss0r: I don't see what other reasons there could be :D
03:04 AM fragalot: :D
03:05 AM fragalot: I finally made the drip tray for the schaublin
03:05 AM miss0r: also, the drill left a nasty burr in the bore. So.. yeah. it is a doover
03:05 AM miss0r: Sweet
03:05 AM fragalot: welding 0.8mm sheet metal with flux core is not ideal
03:05 AM fragalot: I really need to get a new argon bottle for the tig
03:05 AM fragalot: :P
03:05 AM miss0r: welding 0.8mm sheet with wire is not ideal at all :)
03:06 AM fragalot: well the flux core is 0.9mm, lol
03:06 AM miss0r: lol
03:06 AM miss0r: tip: get a somewhat sizeable cobber bar and clamp that to the back of the weld
03:06 AM fragalot: out of a chinese machine that has potentiometers for speed & voltage, except there's no linearity to them at all
03:06 AM fragalot: I know that tip very wel
03:06 AM fragalot: but didn't have any copper xD
03:07 AM miss0r: hehe :]
03:07 AM miss0r: Have you made any progress with your cnc as of late?
03:07 AM fragalot: I made some space for it
03:07 AM miss0r: I guess that is progress. not the kind I was thinking about, but progress nonetheless
03:08 AM fragalot: alas the more free time I get to work on it, the more other matters come up that take priority >.<
03:08 AM fragalot: like.. *sighs* family events
03:08 AM * miss0r shakes his fist at god
03:08 AM miss0r: I know the feeling. I had to make this stuff my job to find time for it :D
03:09 AM fragalot: which is, I assume, going well?
03:09 AM miss0r: under two months till the new baby comes along..
03:09 AM miss0r: Yeah, I can't complain
03:10 AM miss0r: Not enough traveling though. I need to get some clients outside of denmark.. and somehow make them think I can do stuff so much better than the locals, that it is worth for me to travel :D
03:11 AM * fragalot is past the stage of "not enough travel"
03:11 AM miss0r: Yeah, you get to do alot of it ;)
03:11 AM miss0r: I would just like a little
03:12 AM fragalot: went to munich the other day to have a look at that FP42NC
03:12 AM fragalot: agreed on a price, and having it shipped to us in january
03:12 AM miss0r: Nice
03:12 AM miss0r: What controller is on there?
03:12 AM fragalot: haidenhein TNC320
03:13 AM miss0r: Sweet. That one is quite capable
03:13 AM fragalot: (but spelled correctly)
03:13 AM fragalot: got a rundown of the history of the machine too which was fun
03:14 AM fragalot: bought by a shop that machined mainly plastics, which at some point had it modified to run 3 heads simultaneously with a new controller, but the controller gave visually poor surfaces
03:14 AM fragalot: so they sued the company that did the conversion, and the machine sat in storage for 5 years
03:15 AM fragalot: it was then purchased by the current owner, who had FPS over to revert the machine to it's original state, give it a full once-over, and put the TNC320 on
03:15 AM fragalot: current owner machines mainly alu & brass
03:15 AM miss0r: nice
03:15 AM miss0r: So, since the refurb, it hasn't realy done anything hard
03:16 AM fragalot: and is getting rid of it because he rotates his entire machine park every 5 or so years, and has mainly hermle machines with HSK spindles, so he wants to get rid of the last ISO40 machine
03:16 AM fragalot: it's never done anything hard for most of it's life I think
03:16 AM miss0r: makes sense
03:17 AM fragalot: original owner did plastics, second owner does soft alloys
03:17 AM miss0r: neither ever cleaned it?
03:17 AM fragalot: no idea about first owner, but the current one has a SPOTLESS shop
03:17 AM fragalot: (and a display cabinet with absolutely insane parts :D)
03:18 AM miss0r: nice :D I always find myself gazing at those cabinets whenever I'm at a client with such stuff on display
03:19 AM miss0r: have you come across a new tapping head?
03:19 AM fragalot: no, hasn't been a priority
03:20 AM miss0r: pffft. What kind of nonsense is that?
03:20 AM fragalot: used the refund to get that drill press :P
03:20 AM miss0r: :]
03:20 AM fragalot: which has a nice 100rpm low range & reverse, so it's much better at breaking taps
03:20 AM fragalot: I mean tapping
03:21 AM miss0r: haha. How fast can it change direction?
03:21 AM fragalot: INSTANTLY.
03:21 AM fragalot: but it flies your tool across the shop as the chuck loosens
03:21 AM miss0r: lol
03:22 AM fragalot: that also happens if you switch from 3000 rpm to 1500 rpm too quickly
03:22 AM miss0r: how can it do that?
03:22 AM miss0r: Isn't it a gear box with levers?
03:22 AM fragalot: 2 speed motor
03:22 AM miss0r: ahh
03:22 AM fragalot: it is
03:22 AM fragalot: it's got a 7 position switch for the motor, and 2 2 position levers
03:23 AM miss0r: indeed
03:35 AM fragalot: Tecan got it wrong
03:35 AM fragalot: it's live long and phosphorous
03:44 AM miss0r: sounds like a smelly job
03:45 AM fragalot: someone's got to do it
03:45 AM miss0r: true.
03:45 AM miss0r: I'm gathering forces to do over the part right now
03:45 AM fragalot: miss0r: would you get a 5L or a 10L argon bottle as a hobbyist that doesn't currently do all that much TIG welding because he has to pay for those shitty 1L bottles atm that last for like a minute or 2?
03:46 AM fragalot: don't redo the part, just make the pin bigger :D
03:46 AM miss0r: lol. I can't realy fit a bigger one
03:46 AM miss0r: I would get a 10l bottle
03:46 AM fragalot: right, hopefully the dealerships should be open tomorrow
03:47 AM miss0r: It is not much more expensive.. and a 5l bottle also lasts close to nothing
03:47 AM fragalot: I thought it worked out to around 1hr/l assuming a full 200 bar fill
03:47 AM miss0r: my tig welder came with a 5l bottle. and I hardly ever tig weld in here. it never lasts quite like I want
03:47 AM fragalot: then again, math isn't my strong side
03:48 AM fragalot: is the 10l wider, or just taller?
03:48 AM miss0r: that very much depends on your settings
03:48 AM miss0r: taller
03:48 AM fragalot: 10l it is
03:48 AM fragalot: at my previous job they only used 40l tanks
03:48 AM fragalot: those are HELL
03:48 AM fragalot: especially the damn acetylene ones with that big brick inside of it
03:48 AM fragalot: never gets any lighter
03:49 AM miss0r: hehe. Whenever I have to do more than a single tig seam, I go to my dads truck shop.
03:49 AM miss0r: He ALWAYS has two 20l on hand
03:49 AM fragalot: as you should :D
03:49 AM miss0r: sure.. but I rarely do any tig welding.
03:49 AM miss0r: Most of what I tig weld is on my land rover (Yes - I resumed the project), and it is parked at his shop
03:50 AM fragalot: :P
03:51 AM miss0r: Sadly my tig does not do AC.. so I need to go there to do my alu anyway
03:51 AM fragalot: mine doesn't either
03:51 AM fragalot: it's an older 200A scratch start DC
03:51 AM fragalot: which is great, because you've contaminated the weld and your tungsten before you've even started
03:51 AM fragalot: thinking of upgrading at some point, but not quite ready to splurge big bucks on it
03:52 AM miss0r: I *think* mine is a 240A pilot start
03:52 AM miss0r: well, I know it is pilot start.. not sure about the 240A though
03:52 AM fragalot: lol
03:52 AM miss0r: It is a Migatronic pilot 2400
03:52 AM fragalot: 200A is fine for my needs, but the scratch start gets old quick
03:53 AM miss0r: natualy with a watercooled handle
03:53 AM fragalot: plus you need to manually open & close the gas
03:53 AM fragalot: on the torch
03:53 AM miss0r: ... that would make me nuts
03:53 AM fragalot: yea :D
03:53 AM fragalot: I got that when I was 14 or so
03:53 AM miss0r: Then you've had some practice on it :)
03:54 AM miss0r: well, potentially, atleast
03:54 AM miss0r: I'm holding mine for a friend. He works at force technology. He is living in an apartment, and had nowhere to put it. :)
03:54 AM fragalot: around 2000 euro worth of 1 liter gas bottles
03:55 AM miss0r: the part about force technology; that is where he got it
03:55 AM miss0r: damn
03:55 AM fragalot: miss0r: don't worry that equates to like 10 parts
03:55 AM fragalot: >.>
03:56 AM miss0r: hahaha
03:56 AM miss0r: Yeah - nothing sucks more than running out of argon mid weld
03:57 AM miss0r: meh. I need to get this part redone. back in a bit
04:54 AM pink_vampire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsRWa4jqaLs
04:55 AM XXCoder: lol
04:55 AM pink_vampire: there is 4 videos like that
04:56 AM pink_vampire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56YwLap_fwo
04:56 AM miss0r: wtf
04:57 AM MarcelineVQ: <_<
04:57 AM MarcelineVQ: "... It blows their minds!!" that's not how I would describe the reaction
04:58 AM MarcelineVQ: was more like "Oh great a weirdo, smile everyone, let's get the candy and get the fuck out of here"
04:59 AM XXCoder: or "whatever lets grab candy"
04:59 AM MarcelineVQ: Must we pay the blood price for our boons
04:59 AM XXCoder: on subject of candies: Funny for the day: Candies. https://i.imgur.com/H6HEyHj.jpg
05:06 AM jthornton: morning
05:07 AM XXCoder: hey jt check out link I just posted lol
05:08 AM jthornton: looks like she eats a lot of snickers lol
05:09 AM XXCoder: yep lol
05:10 AM jthornton: cold and rainy here
05:10 AM XXCoder: same
05:10 AM jthornton: the egg eating chicken gets a new home today
05:11 AM MarcelineVQ: an oven?
05:11 AM jthornton: no, I'm taking her to my neighbors house to live with her free ranging chickens, turkeys and guineas and cats
05:12 AM jthornton: we have different managing styles so she may fit in with her bunch
05:13 AM MarcelineVQ: To fight for survival in an all new netflix series: Free Range Frackus
05:13 AM * jthornton does not watch netflix
05:43 AM jthornton: now if I can finger out why pip refuses to upgrade a freeking package I cam move on with progrmming
05:44 AM jthornton: damn google search returns only pip upgrades not pip package upgrades :(
05:45 AM XXCoder: single finger eh ;) the middle one
05:45 AM XXCoder: yeah google have been sucking lately
05:45 AM XXCoder: ignoring even basic matches like " "
05:46 AM jthornton: I love programming in python but the packaging sucks big time and is forever broken lol
05:47 AM XXCoder: python, if its not broken its broken
05:57 AM jthornton: apparently it takes some time before the cache is purged
05:58 AM jthornton: python works fine the packaging and distribution sucks lol
05:59 AM rmu: pip --no-cache-dir
06:00 AM jthornton: Collecting digole
06:00 AM jthornton: Using cached https://files.pythonhosted.org/packages
06:00 AM jthornton: seems to be using pythonhosed.org cached files
06:13 AM jthornton: hmm --upgrade --no-cache-dir worked
06:42 AM jthornton: must have been a time issue as it didn't work a second time I guess pip expects you to take a nap between upload a new version and upgrading it locally
06:43 AM XXCoder: Error bed: Lack of sleep detected.
06:43 AM XXCoder: gonna lobe how word bed looks like a bed.
06:43 AM jthornton: good night
06:43 AM XXCoder: nah was joking about nap
06:43 AM XXCoder: though plan to sleep soonish
06:54 AM jthornton: well it's a rainy day and if I don't have to go to town maybe I'll get the louver vents built... I think I have everything gathered up now to cut the dado slots
06:54 AM XXCoder: funny how different locations is
06:55 AM XXCoder: you gonna go to town, you gonna drive. me, if I wanna go to a town, I gonna drive, to get out of city. lol
06:56 AM jthornton: yea it's really nice to live on a dead end dirt road off of a dirt road
06:56 AM XXCoder: depends on person
06:56 AM XXCoder: I require a broadband
06:57 AM miss0r: okay, first job of the day is complete. Now for the second and last.. Problem is; I only have ~2 hours left of the day, I still haven't had lunch, the first job took 5 hours and the next one here is alot more complicated. It looks like this will be an allnighter, again :)
06:58 AM miss0r: but theres no rush. I only promised the client I would be there to drop it off tomorrow morning :ž
06:59 AM jthornton: morning is good up to 11:59AM
06:59 AM XXCoder: 11:59:59:59:59
06:59 AM miss0r: XXCoder: erh.. when leaving seconds, you go to miliseconds... 1/100 ;)
07:00 AM XXCoder: lol
07:00 AM miss0r: 11:59:59:99:99
07:00 AM miss0r: :D
07:00 AM miss0r: meh.. I have other stuff to do tomorrow. I will just get back into the shop tonight
07:00 AM SpeedEvil: It's very important to remember that a milisecond is 1/100th of a second, not 1/60th, yes.
07:00 AM XXCoder: just knock 1x10^-100 second before 12 pm
07:01 AM miss0r: SpeedEvil: Everything else would just be a mess :)
07:11 AM XXCoder: jthornton: looks like you update the docs :)
07:11 AM XXCoder: its better
07:12 AM XXCoder: part = Capture() I have no idea what this does, but it seems to be important for tool tip visualization.
07:12 AM XXCoder: before it was simply no idea
07:13 AM jthornton: for vismach?
07:13 AM XXCoder: yeah
07:13 AM XXCoder: bleh I have no will at all
07:13 AM jthornton: hmm not me, which version?
07:13 AM XXCoder: I want to work on this later lol
07:13 AM XXCoder: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gui/vismach.html
07:14 AM XXCoder: it was updated literally today (for me)
07:15 AM XXCoder: 14 hours ago. I guess someone read log if its not you
07:16 AM XXCoder: my example will be really plain
07:16 AM jthornton: I don't see any updates to vismach in 2.7
07:17 AM XXCoder: just blocks and cylinder really but what I plan to do is do overall from building vismach file then using it in linuxcnc HAl and such
07:17 AM XXCoder: so from nothing to running a virtual machine
07:18 AM XXCoder: that is, if I can muster some will lol
07:19 AM XXCoder: well time for me to collect some Zs. night
07:19 AM jthornton: night
07:19 AM XXCoder: vismach is very nice feature, we need better docs to have more people use it and develop for it. later :)
07:21 AM jthornton: I just need the information...
08:47 AM gloops: hmm, couple of mm to get off a cutter shaft, no centre at the cutter end possible, 15-20mm to hold it with
08:48 AM gloops: job for toolpost grinder really
08:49 AM gregcnc: japanese... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-p_SVUt9hbk
08:50 AM gloops: or..i could turn a tap on sleeve to hold it
11:47 AM merkatorix: I can start linuxcnc from the livecd, but when I try to do the graphical installation it says "The CC-Rom drive contains a CD which cannod be used for installation"
11:47 AM merkatorix: The CD-Rom drive
11:49 AM merkatorix: Oh, wait, I might have booted from a USB-Stick
11:49 AM merkatorix: I got a dodgy Bios on my J4005N D2P.
11:50 AM merkatorix: But the Jitter test is around 26000ns. I hope that is tuneable, after installing it corecty and deactivating some stuff.
11:50 AM merkatorix: At least it is OIK enough to proceed, isn't it?
12:07 PM jthornton: yep
01:01 PM jesseg: hey guys I've long been annoyed by things like welding clamps that are just copper plated steel or pot metal or jumper cable clamps/battery charger clamps that are too thin soft sheet copper or usually again steel... And I had the sudden thought that I should get some copper that's good for casting and machining and cast the cable end clamps I want and machine them as needed!
01:01 PM jesseg: No more worrying about the part failing when the copper film wears off, etc.
01:05 PM jesseg: so is there a particular alloy or sources I ought to check into?
01:11 PM cradek: machining copper is a huge huge pain. copper with casting sand mixed into it would be EVEN worse...
01:12 PM jesseg: Maybe I'd be better off just getting an easy machining alloy that's mostly copper and machining it out of solid billet or whatever you call it
01:13 PM jesseg: or if I could cast the parts exactly enough I wouldn't need to machine it
01:13 PM cradek: I don't know about all the clamps you've had trouble with, but good jumper cables ARE available, you just have to pay for them
01:14 PM cradek: I have some that are extra fat wire, only about 5 feet long, and take both hands to squeeze a clamp
01:14 PM methods_: or maybe just buy some welding ground clamps and swap them out for the junk ones
01:14 PM cradek: they always work and I'm happy every time I use them
01:15 PM cradek: if you replace the ends on overly skinny overly long jumper cables they still won't work
01:16 PM gregcnc: wouldn't it be easier to spend the extra cash on quality parts?
01:16 PM miss0r: if you are replacing the cable, be sure to use category 6 cable
01:16 PM miss0r: class 6. <.
01:17 PM DaViruz: i doubt cat6 cable is suitable for jump starting
01:17 PM gregcnc: might be fun to watch
01:17 PM miss0r: class 6. with alternating strand lengths to counter harmonic currents
01:18 PM gregcnc: I think I spent 45USD for 2ga cables with real clamps
01:19 PM methods_: well that's just silly]
01:19 PM methods_: you could have cast your own clamps and made your own wires
01:19 PM miss0r: yeah !
01:19 PM miss0r: :D
01:19 PM merkatorix: Is there an easy way to get the realtek ethernet working without having an internet connection?
01:20 PM methods_: usb drive?
01:20 PM merkatorix: I have one, but is there a driver I don't have to compile? I don't know how to use the package manager without internet.
01:21 PM merkatorix: Would be cool, if there is a .deb file I can install
01:21 PM methods_: or i've even used a usb wifi that worked with the existing drivers
01:21 PM methods_: then updated using package manager
01:21 PM jesseg: Unless I'm working on a riding lawnmower, normal jumper cables don't even carry starting current.. you're just using them to put 45A into the battery to charge it a bit :P
01:21 PM jesseg: gregcnc, what cables was that that you got for $45 with real clamps and 2ga copper wires?
01:21 PM merkatorix: methods_ Idon't have one yet.
01:21 PM gregcnc: tha't what you get for free-10usd
01:22 PM jesseg: I've noticed of late a lot of regular consumer targeted jumper cables are actually copper plated aluminum wiring lol
01:22 PM methods_: well looks like you need to download the right package to usb then
01:22 PM gregcnc: I'd have to check in the car, Deka brand i'm pretty sure
01:26 PM jthornton: what is the metric equivalent to the weight of an ounce?
01:27 PM jthornton: hmmm 2.2 pounds is a kilo...
01:27 PM jthornton: so that's 35.2 ounces...
01:28 PM jthornton: 0.1 kilo is about equal to 4 ounces?
01:29 PM jthornton: I'm chatting with someone from Fife, Scotland so want to use units of measure they understand (a house wife I think)
01:30 PM DaViruz: 35 ounce to a kilogram i believe
01:30 PM jthornton: I've watched a bunch of episodes of the great british baking show and they measure everything in grams...
01:30 PM DaViruz: oh sorry you just said that
01:31 PM jthornton: so yea what it the unit of measure for 1/10 of a kilogram?
01:31 PM DaViruz: hectogram
01:31 PM jthornton: ah thanks
01:41 PM gregcnc: anyone watch this channel? Machine Thinking https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfsznjef2zGJnrCRQBXqo6Q/featured
01:58 PM gloops: @SkyNews
01:58 PM gloops: Pilot was nearly 10 times over the alcohol limit at Heathrow before flight to Tokyo
01:58 PM gloops: wow
01:59 PM Tom_itx: they should have breatalizers at every boarding place for them to test before getting on the plane
01:59 PM jesseg: wait a second
01:59 PM jesseg: there's a non zero BAC for pilots?!
02:00 PM jesseg: the BAC for pilots should be zero, in which case "10 times" is meaningless:P
02:00 PM Tom_itx: they strip search me when i fly, that's the least they could do for the pilots
02:00 PM gloops: nah the limit is about 1.5-2 pints of beer
02:01 PM jesseg: For a pilot flying paying passengers?!!??!
02:01 PM gloops: hes only had 15-20 pints before piloting a 747
02:01 PM DaViruz: zero is an impossible limit for anything
02:01 PM gloops: jesseg yeah you need something to take the shakes off
02:01 PM DaViruz: like asking someone for tolerances on drawings
02:02 PM jesseg: gloops, hahahaha a shot of whisky for a normal day, 2 shots if you're going to have excessive turbulence. I can dig that. I can dig the plane right into the ground for that.
02:03 PM fragalot: Evenin'
02:03 PM Tom_itx: afternoon
02:06 PM jesseg: DaViruz, zero is not an impossible limit for some things. And in other cases, essentially zero is possible for cases where that's practical. A pilot should not have a detectable level of alcohol in him when flying paying passengers. You say there are machines that can detect remnants of the alcohol in his breath from a drink he had last year - ok then set a part per billion that is easily a thousand times below the beginning of intoxication. That's my
02:06 PM jesseg: strong opinion and I'm sticking to it :P
02:07 PM Tom_itx: meh, they're just live freight
02:08 PM jesseg: at least they start out alive.
02:08 PM fragalot: not all of them
02:08 PM jesseg: They might not land live, and the chances of them not landing live go up dramatically with a drunk pilot
02:08 PM gloops: its not like the pilot really does anything these days
02:08 PM fragalot: not always
02:08 PM jesseg: LOL pilots still land and take off usually
02:08 PM gloops: once hes on auto he can sleep it off for a couple of hours
02:08 PM jesseg: and perform emergency landing
02:09 PM gloops: hes just got to make it from the bar to the plane
02:10 PM Loetmichel: jesseg: passenger liners usually can take off and land on their own provided the airfields can provide ILS level 4 or so
02:11 PM jesseg: yeah they are starting to experiment with autonomous TaL's
02:12 PM jesseg: but still.. the pilot should not be even close to having alcohol surging through his veins.
02:12 PM jesseg: until pilots aren't needed then I don't care if they drink as long as they aren't on the plane :P
02:13 PM gloops: probably facing a little time i think
02:13 PM gloops: A British Airways pilot was jailed for eight months in June after he was caught more than four times the alcohol limit on duty.
02:13 PM gloops: Julian Monaghan drank three double vodkas in his hotel room on an empty stomach before he was due on board a flight from Gatwick Airport to Mauritius on 18 January.
02:14 PM jesseg: well I gotta run. Have fun.
02:15 PM fragalot: it shouldn't have to take FOUR times before that sentence
02:16 PM gloops: you have to consider that these are hardened drinkers, quarter a bottle of vodka is nothing to him
02:16 PM fragalot: that does not make it better
02:17 PM fragalot: alcohol does not belong in someone's body if they are responsible for the lives of 100+ people.
02:18 PM gloops: we'd probably be surprised at how many people in positions of responsibility prop themselves up with alcohol and other substances
02:19 PM gloops: theyd go mad if they didnt
02:19 PM fragalot: then they do not belong in said positions
02:21 PM gloops: politicians, judges, doctors, theyre all at it
02:35 PM sync: fragalot: it's the same old job every day after all
02:35 PM sync: kinda like working a factory line
02:36 PM fragalot: so change jobs, don't endanger others
02:36 PM sync: #yolo
02:39 PM DaViruz: jesseg: well, good luck with that.
02:40 PM CaptHindsight: why the outrage over pilots and alcohol?
02:40 PM DaViruz: better not use the windscreen washer on your way to work with limits like that
02:41 PM CaptHindsight: we have idiots in charge of entire armies
02:45 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: Thankfully there are checks and balances *cough*
02:46 PM rene_dev_: fragalot well, you better not use planes then :D
02:46 PM sync: or doctors
02:47 PM rene_dev_: so what do you think the crew does, when they are in another country for one night?
02:47 PM CaptHindsight: avoid some viruses and bacteria
02:47 PM CaptHindsight: and #reprap
02:49 PM CaptHindsight: hah https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/wj9wbn/drunk-baggage-handler-passes-out-in-cargo-hold-plane-flies-to-chicago-american-airlines-vgtrn
02:57 PM {HD}: My digital calipers are on the way out.
02:57 PM {HD}: Ugh
02:57 PM fragalot: either replace the battery now, or chuck it out whilst you still can
02:59 PM {HD}: fragalot: it has a new battery and the contacts are clean but it still dims out sometimes. Just put a meter on the battery and its 1.55v and I just put a psu on the caliper and that seems good too. So ĀÆ\_(ć)_/ĀÆ?
03:01 PM fragalot: I had one that would randomly reset the reading when moving it
03:01 PM CaptHindsight: have one from China that is similar
03:01 PM fragalot: figured i'd keep it as a scribe for a while but it's still made it in the bin
03:02 PM CaptHindsight: slight twist does is at times also has some crunchy spots in its travel
03:02 PM {HD}: I would gladly toss these which have been good for 10 years but I donāt have the $$for the nice pair I would want to replace them with.
03:02 PM fragalot: I just sold part of my liver for my tesa
03:02 PM {HD}: fragalot: haha
03:03 PM {HD}: Whats the other good brand miyotomi? Or something
03:03 PM fragalot: mitutoyo
03:03 PM fragalot: they have a cheaper series that works well but eats batteries
03:03 PM CaptHindsight: my2toeyou
03:03 PM {HD}: I donāt want battery eaters.
03:04 PM {HD}: Had maybe 3-5 batterys in this thing over the last 10 years.
03:04 PM {HD}: Doesnāt seem too many
03:04 PM fragalot: https://www.pruefmittel24.com/index.php?option=list2&category=424 <== all of these except for the last one are good bets
03:06 PM fragalot: i also have a few dial calipers from mitutoyo that are quite nice if you don't want the ability to zero it on a gauge block to use on the lathe :P
03:06 PM {HD}: Too$$ gonna get a HF one probably and 3dprint āthe battery saverā mod for it. Should last me a few years.
03:10 PM XXCoder: battery saver mod eh
03:15 PM {HD}: XXCoder: yep. Its on thingiverse. Just a thin shim to cut off power.
03:15 PM XXCoder: lol ok
03:27 PM XXCoder is now known as XXCoder_dead
03:39 PM {HD}: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2854516
03:39 PM CaptHindsight: removed crunchy area from caliper, behaves like new Chinese caliper
03:40 PM {HD}: CaptHindsight: \o/
03:40 PM {HD}: What was in there?
03:40 PM CaptHindsight: real men use laser micrometers
03:41 PM XXCoder_dead: hd chips im sure
03:41 PM CaptHindsight: black powder, likely carbon or graphite
03:42 PM CaptHindsight: put them down in a wrong spot just once....
03:44 PM {HD}: Thats why they come with a case
03:52 PM XXCoder_dead is now known as XXCoder
03:57 PM CaptHindsight: {HD}: the case goes into a drawer, it seen years later as "ah so thats where that thing is"
04:01 PM {HD}: I keep mine on top of my case on the desk. Calipers is one of the most used tools @ my desk.
04:02 PM XXCoder: mine is in tool cart, both sets of caliper and mic
04:03 PM roycroft: minor upate, in fairness to schaller
04:03 PM roycroft: update, rather
04:03 PM roycroft: lower in the box that i received the bins were more uniform in size
04:03 PM roycroft: and when i contacted them they said they would send me replacements for the oddly-sized ones, and that they should always be more uniform than those
04:19 PM {HD}: roycroft: what kind of bins?
04:20 PM {HD}: https://i.imgur.com/6rUzVAF.jpg seems to have fixed the issue. Maybe somekind of short caused by the battery cover...
04:21 PM roycroft: http://www.schallercorporation.com
04:21 PM roycroft: red bins :)
04:21 PM {HD}: roycroft: nice! That would be handy.
04:24 PM roycroft: yeah, i have a wall full of bins like these currently:
04:24 PM roycroft: https://www.amazon.com/Akro-Mils-10764-64-Drawer-Plastic-Hardware/dp/B000VTSOKS/ref=sr_1_22_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1541107348&sr=8-22-spons&keywords=plastic+bin+drawers&psc=1
04:24 PM roycroft: and i need something more space-efficient
04:24 PM roycroft: so i'm building cabinets for my fasteners/misc. hardware
04:25 PM roycroft: plus, i want to recover some of that wall space to store my woodworking clamps
04:26 PM {HD}: I cant go to amazon. I think they block my ip/dns...
04:28 PM {HD}: roycroft: are those bins designed for a particular drawer or toolchest?
04:28 PM roycroft: no, they're for whatever you want to use them for
04:28 PM {HD}: I use those akromills drawers for my electronics and stanley cases for my hardware.
04:31 PM roycroft: http://www.zymurgasm.com/BrewSystem/HLT/img_0769.jpeg
04:31 PM roycroft: you can see the wall-mounted bins in the background
04:32 PM roycroft: and you can see a cabinet full of toolboxes underneath them
04:33 PM roycroft: i'm going to cut the shelves out of that cabinet, and insert some new drawer cabinets with those red bins underneath it
04:33 PM {HD}: Yea. Thats about how mine look. Never been super happy with it. But they are cheap and easy. Whats in the ākeg?ā?
04:33 PM roycroft: that's part of my brew system
04:33 PM roycroft: the picture was taken when i was constructing it
04:34 PM roycroft: http://www.zymurgasm.com/BrewSystem/NewBrewStand/
04:34 PM roycroft: those are some pictures of the system as it's more complete
04:35 PM {HD}: roycroft: wow that looks pro. Do you make and sell beer?
04:36 PM roycroft: yes and no
04:36 PM roycroft: i don't want the headache of dealing with the OLCC and ATF in order to be able to sell it
04:36 PM roycroft: so i just make it and share it with my friends
04:36 PM roycroft: i also teach brewing classes
04:36 PM roycroft: yes, my brew system would be a nice pilot system for a microbrewery
04:37 PM roycroft: it's too small to make enough to sell though
04:37 PM roycroft: imo, one needs a brewhouse capacity of at least 1 barrel to even consider being commercially viable
04:37 PM roycroft: and preferably fermentors with a 3 barrel capacity
04:38 PM {HD}: I always wanted to make beer. I made mead once and I make practically non-alcoholic ginger ale but never beer.
04:38 PM roycroft: it's just not economically feasible on a smaller scale than that
04:38 PM roycroft: it takes six to eight hours to brew a gallon of beer
04:38 PM roycroft: it takes six to eight hours to brew a barrel of beer
04:38 PM roycroft: it takes six to eight hours to brew 500 barrels of beer
04:39 PM roycroft: time is money
04:39 PM JT-Shop: it takes 6-8 hours to brew a gallon of beer
04:39 PM DaViruz: 6-8 hours of beer on a wall.
04:39 PM DaViruz: no that's not right
04:41 PM roycroft: anyway, after my conversation with schaller, i'm convinced that theirs is a really good product
04:41 PM roycroft: and that if there are any anomolies with an order in the future, they will take care of things
04:43 PM {HD}: I wonder if it would be cost-effective to 3-D print bins. I guess itās entirely dependent on how many needs to be made
04:48 PM roycroft: i need ~3000 in total
04:48 PM roycroft: and i hate the look of 3d printed stuff
04:48 PM roycroft: so it's highly unlikely that i would do that
05:00 PM Deejay: gn8
05:04 PM ronox: heyo, can anyone give me some advice on buying my first mill? im stuuck between getting a loan for a tormach or just outright buying a second hand one and putting cnc on it later
05:04 PM roycroft: do you want to learn how to build a cnc mill or do you just want to make parts?
05:05 PM roycroft: or both?
05:05 PM ronox: i want something reliable so probably best i buy a proper one
05:05 PM ronox: i also dont have the time to build one
05:05 PM Glorfindel: wait you can build one
05:06 PM roycroft: shop cnc conversions can be rock solid reliable
05:06 PM roycroft: it sounds like you just want to make parts
05:06 PM ronox: yep
05:06 PM roycroft: so if you have the budget, it would probably be best to at least start with a tormach
05:06 PM roycroft: you might look at a smallish one
05:06 PM ronox: oh really?
05:06 PM roycroft: get going on it
05:06 PM ronox: i was told tormach is shit
05:06 PM ronox: but, i think the people were also highly biased
05:07 PM roycroft: and then decide if you need something bigger, whether to roll your own or buy a bigger turnkey machine
05:07 PM roycroft: there are jobber shops all over the place that use tormach all day long, every day, to make money
05:07 PM ronox: bigger in what way? like milling size?
05:07 PM roycroft: capacity, mass, power
05:07 PM ronox: or, is there some inherent benefit to larger mills?
05:07 PM roycroft: yes, they weigh a lot more
05:07 PM ronox: yeah i wont need to make anything huge
05:08 PM ronox: or fast
05:08 PM roycroft: and all other factors being equal, will be able to hold tighter tolerances
05:08 PM ronox: oh
05:08 PM roycroft: vibration is bad when you're trying to hold tenths, mmkay?
05:08 PM ronox: is there a way to quantify the tormachs limits?
05:08 PM ronox: 10ths?
05:08 PM roycroft: 0.0001"
05:09 PM ronox: oh
05:09 PM ronox: do you know anything about the differences between the PCNC440 and 1100?
05:09 PM roycroft: 0.003" is not hard to hold with a small, lightweight mill
05:09 PM roycroft: better than that and mass is definitely your friend
05:09 PM roycroft: i don't know anything about tormach model numbers
05:10 PM roycroft: if you're really interested in one i would suggest you contact tormach
05:10 PM ronox: theres only 2 tormachs as far as i know
05:10 PM ronox: the 440 and 1100
05:10 PM roycroft: they likely have a list of customers who would be willing to discuss their experiences with you
05:10 PM ronox: at least, diy range ones
05:10 PM ronox: oh
05:11 PM ronox: someone once told me when they got their tormach it needed like months of adjustments or something to be "usable" any idea what thats about?
05:11 PM roycroft: will you be machining steel?
05:11 PM ronox: id like to yes
05:12 PM ronox: but mostly alu
05:12 PM roycroft: then get a big, heavy mill if you can
05:12 PM ronox: so, not a tormach
05:13 PM roycroft: a tormach (or any cnc mill) that takes months to dial in most likely demonstrates an operator who is not very skilled at cnc machining
05:13 PM ronox: starting out i realized i dont especially need a cnc, a hand operated one is fine
05:13 PM sync: they are not bad machines tbh
05:13 PM roycroft: there's a guy who is, or at least used to be, a big tormach advocate on teh youtube
05:13 PM roycroft: nyccnc i think he goes by
05:13 PM roycroft: go watch some of his videos
05:13 PM sync: they get a bad rep but for what they cost they are fine
05:13 PM ronox: and theres a lot available, but i have no idea how to cmpare them, like, theres one thats highly regarded but it was build in 1954
05:14 PM ronox: bad rep for what?
05:14 PM roycroft: sync: i am not putting down tormach at all (and i don't thin you're suggesting i am)
05:14 PM roycroft: but they are fairly lightweight machines
05:14 PM roycroft: they do great with aluminium
05:15 PM roycroft: which is probably what 90+ percent of folks machine with them
05:15 PM roycroft: most of the rest machine plastics
05:15 PM ronox: visa vi steel, i need something that CAN do steel, like, for simple load bearing parts
05:15 PM roycroft: you really need something that's bridgeport class at least in order to efficiently machine steel
05:15 PM ronox: or stupiidly high module gears
05:15 PM sync: not really ronox
05:15 PM ronox: like M2 or 3 or something
05:15 PM roycroft: ronox: if it's just occasional machining of small parts then don't spend a bunch of money on a giant machine
05:15 PM sync: they will do fine after all
05:16 PM sync: I mean, you can always go slower
05:16 PM roycroft: get something that works well for the majority of your work
05:16 PM roycroft: and when you need to do steel, just take light passes and know it's going to take a while
05:16 PM ronox: majority is aluminium, mostly i just want the option for steel
05:16 PM ronox: yeah i dont care if it takes a while
05:16 PM roycroft: especially since you're not manually operating the machine
05:16 PM ronox: oh, question, does anyone anywhere ever smelt their own blocks of metal?
05:17 PM roycroft: lots of people all over the world do
05:17 PM ronox: and now that you mention it, once CNC rigged, can a machine still be hand operated?
05:17 PM ronox: oh neat
05:17 PM roycroft: it's generally difficult to do manual machining with a cnc mill
05:17 PM ronox: i can get a lot of scrap alu but buying blocks is a tad bit expensive for me here
05:17 PM ronox: i see
05:17 PM ronox: what about manual electronic control?
05:18 PM roycroft: yes, you can do that quite easily
05:18 PM ronox: oh good
05:18 PM roycroft: manual mills generally have acme thread screws, which have a fair amount of friction but are usually not terribly precise
05:18 PM roycroft: cnc mills generally have ball screws which are extremely low friction and usually much more precise
05:19 PM ronox: oof
05:19 PM roycroft: but the problem with ball screws is that they are so friction-fee that they tend to drift when doing manual milling
05:19 PM ronox: so, if i go manual mill, make sure has ball screws?
05:19 PM ronox: or is that unlikely
05:19 PM roycroft: i.e. if you set x and y, and are cranking on the x handwheel, your y might drift due to the force of the cutter
05:19 PM ronox: yeah i get it
05:19 PM roycroft: if you get a manual mill you want to get one without ball screws
05:19 PM ronox: the cutter moves the bed
05:20 PM roycroft: right
05:20 PM ronox: oh
05:20 PM roycroft: you can lock it down, of course
05:20 PM ronox: so they dont like, have artifical friction addons for ball screws?
05:20 PM roycroft: i'll say that manual milling on a cnc mill, IF the cnc mill even has the hand cranks, is awkward at best
05:20 PM roycroft: most cnc mills don't have hand cranks though
05:21 PM ronox: understood, i think i can manage fine just doing manual electronically
05:21 PM roycroft: cnc-converted manual mills almost always have the drive motors mounted where the had cranks used to be
05:21 PM ronox: thats a shame though
05:21 PM Tom_itx: i use the pendant for manual
05:21 PM roycroft: right, that's what i suggested
05:22 PM roycroft: you can also write bits of g-code on the fly
05:22 PM ronox: so, odds are, i probably wont be able to match a tormach from most any old manual mill i convert
05:22 PM Tom_itx: i do that as well
05:22 PM ronox: oh yeah true
05:22 PM ronox: yeah g code isnt that hard
05:22 PM ronox: the firmware can handle stuff like travel speed, accel and etc
05:22 PM roycroft: i don't know what you mean by that match a tormach from a manual mill bit
05:23 PM roycroft: if you convert a manual mill to cnc you will almost certainly want to replace the acme screws with ball screws
05:23 PM ronox: i mean in terms of potential quality as is without modifying it
05:23 PM ronox: anything else? or is that just it?
05:23 PM roycroft: quality is in the hands of the operator, not inherent in the machine :)
05:24 PM ronox: oh
05:24 PM roycroft: you can make crap parts from a 7-figure mill
05:24 PM roycroft: and you can make beautiful, precise parts on an old, beat-up manual mill
05:25 PM roycroft: if the mill is old and worn out it can be quite challengint to make nice parts with it
05:25 PM ronox: im liking the idea of 2nd hand mills to convert just because occasionally people will sell theirs with a bunch of tools and accessories for only $2k
05:25 PM roycroft: sure
05:25 PM ronox: how much parts on a mill can be remade with the mill?
05:25 PM roycroft: and if the mill is fairly tight that can be a good deal
05:25 PM roycroft: then spend another $3k on the cnc conversion
05:25 PM roycroft: and you have yourself a nice bridgeport-class cnc machine
05:26 PM ronox: how do i tell if a mill is good or not, if it comes to the point i am turning up to the place and checking it before i pay
05:26 PM ronox: for a 2nd hand one
05:26 PM roycroft: if i'm honest
05:26 PM roycroft: you seem to not have a lot of experience
05:26 PM sync: that is quite difficult if you don't know what you are doing
05:26 PM ronox: like, is there a standardized test or something?
05:26 PM sync: tbh I would just get a tormach and see how it works for you
05:26 PM roycroft: so the thing to do is establish a relationship with an experienced machinist
05:27 PM roycroft: and have that person help you evaluate machines that you might want to purchase
05:27 PM ronox: that wont be possible
05:27 PM roycroft: if that's not possible then purchasing a turn-key brand new machine might be your best option
05:27 PM ronox: ill be driving up/down from queensland to victoria in december, so, that accounts for a route that can get me to 90% of all for sale cnc mills in the country
05:27 PM roycroft: such as the aforementioned tormach machines
05:27 PM roycroft: oh
05:28 PM roycroft: so you use those funny, worthless dollars
05:28 PM roycroft: so now it's AUD$3k to match US$2k
05:28 PM ronox: yeah
05:28 PM roycroft: and double that price
05:28 PM roycroft: because everything costs 2x as much in australia
05:28 PM ronox: i remember back when it was the other way around in like 2008
05:28 PM gloops: whats this mill for making?
05:28 PM ronox: im an engineer
05:28 PM ronox: i need things
05:28 PM roycroft: so you're building choo-choos
05:29 PM roycroft: :)
05:29 PM ronox: and fdm printers can only make so much
05:29 PM gloops: old bridgeport
05:29 PM ronox: what exactly is a bridgeport?
05:29 PM roycroft: gloops: ronox knows nothing about milling machines
05:29 PM roycroft: and wants to primarily machine aluminium
05:29 PM roycroft: a bridgeport would be a bad idea
05:29 PM roycroft: a used one especially
05:30 PM gloops: bridgeport is a brand, a trusted marque in the world of milling
05:30 PM roycroft: bridgeport are a brand of mill whose machines were the "standard" for small job shops
05:30 PM ronox: i see
05:30 PM roycroft: bridgeports have been copied by dozens of other manufactures
05:31 PM roycroft: when i say "bridgeport class" i mean a machine roughly like a bridgeport
05:31 PM roycroft: a proper knee mill, with a table about 40x125cm, weight of about a ton, motor <3hp
05:32 PM gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRIDGEPORT-MILLING-MACHINE-FROM-SMALL-MAINTENANCE-SHOP-WITH-MANUAL-AND-VICE/253955357958?
05:32 PM roycroft: ring up tormach
05:32 PM roycroft: i'm sure they have a headquarters in australia
05:32 PM gloops: Ā£1600 you can do all the milling you want
05:32 PM roycroft: go on a road trip to sydney, brisbane, perth, or wherever they are that is closest to you
05:33 PM roycroft: have them show you their stuff
05:33 PM ronox: ah i see
05:33 PM roycroft: but in the meantime
05:33 PM roycroft: as i suggested earlier, go watch some youtube videos
05:33 PM roycroft: that nyccnc guy would be a good start
05:33 PM roycroft: he is, or at least was, mr tormach for quite a while
05:33 PM Tom_itx: what kind of engineer doesn't know about bridgeport? :)
05:33 PM sync: roycroft: they actually don't
05:33 PM roycroft: and he has videos going back to when he got his first cnc mill
05:33 PM ronox: what range of rpm would i need?
05:34 PM ronox: for smaller bits
05:34 PM Tom_itx: 0-10k
05:34 PM roycroft: depends on the material and the cutters :)
05:34 PM ronox: bridgeport only goes to 2-3k
05:34 PM roycroft: right
05:34 PM roycroft: because they're made for steel
05:34 PM roycroft: you can replace the spindle though
05:34 PM roycroft: or mount a second spindle that has higher rpm
05:34 PM ronox: ah ok
05:34 PM roycroft: engineer != machinist
05:34 PM ronox: i know
05:35 PM roycroft: that was directed towards tom_itx :)
05:35 PM ronox: im an engineering student
05:35 PM Tom_itx: what field?
05:35 PM ronox: electrical engineer
05:35 PM Tom_itx: my 2 kids are going for mechanical
05:35 PM roycroft: even more reason to not know about milling machines
05:35 PM ronox: although at this point ive done the same as any other
05:35 PM roycroft: honestly, you're six months of research away from knowing what you want
05:36 PM ronox: my degree is morso for the knowledge, for myself, than to fit a position
05:36 PM roycroft: if you just want to make parts
05:36 PM Tom_itx: ronox where you at?
05:36 PM ronox: i want to make a living inventing/making things.
05:36 PM ronox: ?
05:36 PM ronox: geographically or?
05:36 PM Tom_itx: yeah
05:37 PM ronox: north queensland
05:37 PM ronox: mackay
05:37 PM Tom_itx: ahh cool
05:37 PM ronox: its between rockhampton and townsville
05:37 PM ronox: so, nothing there just about
05:37 PM Tom_itx: rifraf was near gold coast
05:37 PM roycroft: my strong suggestion is that you take a couple machining classes
05:37 PM roycroft: learn how to manually machine on an engine lathe and a bridgeport class vertical mill
05:37 PM ronox: my grandpa has a mill
05:37 PM roycroft: just to get used to working with the materials, and with feeds and speeds
05:38 PM ronox: ill be visiting him on this trip im taking
05:38 PM Tom_itx: tell him to teach you everything he knows
05:38 PM roycroft: after you have a few months of that under your belt you'll be able to answer many of your own questions about the cnc machine
05:38 PM ronox: he only recently got the mill, knew a place that had to close down
05:38 PM Tom_itx: alot of that won't be found in a book
05:38 PM Tom_itx: oh
05:38 PM roycroft: folks here will be happy to answer questions that we can
05:38 PM roycroft: but at the end of the day a lot of your questions will only be able to be answered by you
05:38 PM ronox: i guess though once i see what a mill can do ill find out if its enough for what i want
05:39 PM roycroft: no
05:39 PM roycroft: after someone demos a mill for you you'll have a better idea if it will be suitable
05:39 PM ronox: oh
05:39 PM roycroft: just seeing it will tell you nothing
05:39 PM ronox: by see i meant using it myself
05:39 PM roycroft: ok
05:39 PM roycroft: that's fair
05:39 PM ronox: i have an idea of what i want out of a mill
05:40 PM roycroft: but nobody is going to let you touch their mill if you have no experience with one, except in a classroom setting with an instructor observing :)
05:40 PM ronox: i should have used the mill back at highschool :(
05:40 PM roycroft: it's never too late to learn!
05:40 PM roycroft: especially if you're still in uni
05:40 PM ronox: i was the only student, everyone else dropped out so i got to mess with the plasma cutter
05:41 PM roycroft: you're just a young whippersnapper
05:41 PM ronox: not in uni anymore though
05:41 PM ronox: well, not enrolled in new classes
05:41 PM roycroft: oh, i thought you were
05:41 PM Tom_itx: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/spindle_cooler/Mill1.jpg
05:41 PM roycroft: at any rate, you're still young
05:41 PM Tom_itx: one i built from scraps
05:41 PM ronox: i can re-enrol, its just a sign up
05:41 PM ronox: ooh
05:42 PM roycroft: for those who came in late, i asked ronox early on if the goal was to learn how to build a cnc mill or to just make parts, and the answer was "make parts"
05:42 PM roycroft: which is why i've been talking mostly about a turn-key solution
05:42 PM Tom_itx: i haven't read any of it
05:42 PM roycroft: you know the gist of it now :)
05:43 PM roycroft: the intial question was basically "i want to get a cnc mill and i don't know if i should get tormach or a used machine to convert. please help."
05:44 PM roycroft: there are other small turn-key mills besides tormach, btw
05:44 PM roycroft: i don't know what's available in australia
05:44 PM roycroft: you might see if there's a makerspace you can visit/join who have a cnc mill
05:44 PM Tom_itx: ronox, some yt of where it's been so far
05:44 PM Tom_itx: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoG_JaILNz3Q-jBZ5MiK1dA/videos?view_as=subscriber
05:44 PM ronox: by the way, i know this is probably a dumb question but, is it possible to make some decent side cash from a CNC making and selling certain things like on ebay
05:44 PM roycroft: you could get your feet wet using a makerspace machine before you make the big plunge
05:44 PM Tom_itx: if you're good at it
05:45 PM ronox: now and then i see stupid simple objects that cost 100s
05:45 PM Tom_itx: you can sell a rock on ebay
05:45 PM ronox: i know but people buy these
05:45 PM roycroft: as i said before, in a slightly different context,that is a function of the operator, not the machine
05:46 PM ronox: occasionally at my work we order in something expensive that might be an alu plate with 2 holes and a single groove cut into it and thats $500
05:46 PM roycroft: don't think you're going to spend $4k on a cnc mill, set it up in your shed, spend a couple hours figuring it out, and then raking in $1k/week on ebay sales of the parts you make
05:46 PM Tom_itx: what industry?
05:47 PM ronox: gas detection and other similar equipment
05:47 PM ronox: dust monitoring, chemical sampling
05:47 PM ronox: some of the equipment use these stupid simple attachments that cost an arm and a leg
05:47 PM roycroft: if you're going to make parts for equipment like that, make sure you have a *LOT* of liability insurance
05:47 PM Tom_itx: maybe the parts need to be certified
05:47 PM ronox: nope
05:47 PM roycroft: that too
05:48 PM ronox: i mean some do yyes but, a lot of the time its like all that was needed to make the thing was a quick doodle on a piece of paper
05:48 PM ronox: i guess it matters about finding the parts to supply the demand
05:48 PM roycroft: and someone who both knows what tolerance is required and has the skill to make the part to the required tolerance
05:48 PM jthornton: ronox: is your boss happy with the idea of you making parts for the company you work for?
05:49 PM ronox: we would be probably
05:49 PM ronox: he*
05:49 PM ronox: i run the rental department so, i only deal with equipment we own
05:49 PM jthornton: you might want to pass the idea past him to see what he things...
05:49 PM gloops: a lot of the part making thing is location
05:49 PM ronox: anyway its just an example
05:50 PM roycroft: does your boss know that you don't know the first thing about machining at this point? and if not, would he still be ok with it knowing that?
05:50 PM roycroft: and please understand, i'm not putting you down
05:50 PM roycroft: just trying to be real
05:50 PM ronox: no i get it
05:50 PM roycroft: everyone starts out knowing nothing
05:51 PM ronox: yes, he does know, and no, i wouldnt make things for my own company
05:51 PM roycroft: if you really want to make money quickly with your milling machine, i would suggest making coffee cups for the us air force
05:51 PM jthornton: I know guys that make things for their company on the weekends for extra money
05:51 PM gloops: as for inventing - if you do come up with a worldbeater, the chinese will come up with it too
05:51 PM jthornton: lol
05:52 PM roycroft: the air force pays thousands of dollars for a coffee cup
05:52 PM ronox: lol
05:52 PM ronox: i believe you
05:52 PM ronox: they are shitting cash
05:52 PM roycroft: with a plastic handle that breaks off the first time you bump it against anything
05:52 PM ronox: they get such cool stuff
05:52 PM ronox: oh lol
05:52 PM roycroft: it's so bad that pilots are playing with 3d printers trying to make replacement handles themselves
05:53 PM roycroft: because the standard protocol is to toss the cup when the handle breaks and buy a new one
05:53 PM roycroft: anyway
05:53 PM roycroft: i digress
05:53 PM ronox: anyway, im not looking for big bucks, its jus that should the worst happen, i lose my job, or whatever, its just nice to know what i can make with my hands so to speak, like to pay for rent and such
05:53 PM gloops: but..there are lots and lots of people wanting things made, all kinds, for their car restoration projection, for their workshop, anything - does anybody know someone who could make me one of these?
05:53 PM ronox: where to shift my priorities in my goal to become finaincially self sufficient
05:53 PM gloops: project
05:53 PM roycroft: honestly
05:53 PM roycroft: go back to uni
05:53 PM roycroft: or a trade school
05:54 PM ronox: i cant afforrd to go to uni
05:54 PM roycroft: or junior college, if you have such an equivalent in australia
05:54 PM roycroft: and take a couple machining classes
05:54 PM ronox: gotta have a job to pay the rent
05:54 PM jthornton: a neighbor came by once and asked if I could make a new mower deck spindle housing from steel and I said yes, it will cost you $750 and he about fainted
05:54 PM roycroft: i really really am a strong advocate for learning the basics of manual machining before doing cnc machining
05:54 PM roycroft: i remember that, jthornton
05:54 PM jthornton: but but but it only cost $40 for an aluminum one
05:54 PM roycroft: or, at least, your telling that story before
05:54 PM gloops: look at archivist who was in here, had a few machines in the garage, locally known as a competent machinist, always someone knocking on the door for a little job done
05:55 PM jthornton: yea and they make a bunch of them lol
05:55 PM roycroft: it cost the manufacture a *LOT* more than $750 to make the first one
05:55 PM jthornton: you got that right
05:55 PM jthornton: one off's are expensive to make
05:56 PM roycroft: i'm sure you told your neighbor to buy 10 spares from the manufacturer
05:56 PM ronox: i have no allusions about being able to just buy a tormach and suddenly i can quit my job
05:56 PM roycroft: and he would have $350 left in his pocket
05:56 PM gloops: and batch is out too - big cnc shops do those
05:56 PM roycroft: keep something else in mind, ronox
05:56 PM jthornton: yea, he went and purchased a new one and picked up the rocks in his yard I assume lol
05:56 PM roycroft: while a cnc machine is hands-free once it's set up and running, it does need to be tended
05:57 PM ronox: its just if i buy one, ited be nice to know my fallback revenue stream in a worst case scenario
05:57 PM roycroft: so you can't walk completely away from it and let it do its thing
05:57 PM ronox: yeah i know
05:57 PM ronox: my reprap i2 is the same
05:57 PM roycroft: there is still a labor cost even after you push the start button
05:57 PM ronox: cant trust the thing to be alone
05:57 PM ronox: yeah most jobs cant be done with a single bit
05:58 PM jthornton: once I've run a part on the VMC I don't mind walking away for the rest of the parts
05:58 PM SpeedEvil: In principle you can have extra sensors for that, but...
05:58 PM ronox: one thing id like to do is make injection molds, im fed up with 3D printed stuff, it breaks so easily, sometimes i just need a small flat rectangular block of plastic with a hole in it
05:58 PM * jthornton wanders off to relax for the evening
05:58 PM roycroft: i would say buy a small turnkey system, learn on it, figure out its limitations, and if you need something more, figure out something you can make with the current one to sell in order to generate revenue for buying a bigger machine
05:59 PM ronox: and it wont even do that right XD
05:59 PM gloops: you want a cnc mill for injection moulds
05:59 PM ronox: yeah i know
05:59 PM roycroft: i would not start a machining career trying to make injection molds
06:00 PM ronox: nah personal use stuff
06:00 PM gloops: you also need knowledge of injection molds
06:00 PM gloops: and CAD software
06:00 PM tiwake: injection molds are butts to make
06:00 PM ronox: although injection molding does interest me a great deal
06:00 PM roycroft: and a bigger shed :)
06:00 PM ronox: how so?
06:00 PM roycroft: injection molds are precise and hard
06:01 PM ronox: well i guess it depends on what you are molding
06:01 PM jthornton: for a few parts you can get by with less
06:01 PM roycroft: they are fairly high up on the "required skill" chart
06:01 PM ronox: i dont doubt
06:01 PM roycroft: do not fool yourself into thinking that a cnc milling machine requires less skill than a manual machine to operate
06:01 PM gloops: someone was complaining avout $500 quote for a simple mold in ally, about 5 inch square
06:02 PM ronox: i saw a video on making one with a PCNC 440, tool the guy like 20 different tools to make a little plastic gun
06:02 PM gloops: thats actually very cheap
06:02 PM ronox: like a model machine gun for legos or something
06:02 PM jthornton: I do a lot of work for a local plastic plant and the molds they use are insanely complicated lol
06:02 PM roycroft: which is another reason i say you should learn the basics on a manual engine lathe and vertical mill before you start working on a cnc mill
06:02 PM ronox: immediately i need injection molding just for rigid bulky simple plastic shapes
06:03 PM jthornton: well the chickens are all in the roost area time to lock the outer doors
06:03 PM gloops: plastic molding is a science in itself
06:03 PM roycroft: you also have mentioned multiple times that you don't care about speed
06:03 PM ronox: things like a chasis or base plate for something else to be built upon
06:03 PM roycroft: but now you're talking about generating revenue with the mill
06:03 PM roycroft: and i put it to you that speed is just about all you should care about in that situation
06:03 PM ronox: if i can, but not planned
06:04 PM roycroft: if you're going to make money you need to ask yourself these things (amongst others):
06:04 PM gregcnc: so have these parts been quoted with molders?
06:04 PM roycroft: how long will it take me to design the part?
06:04 PM roycroft: how fast can i make the part?
06:04 PM roycroft: how much will the materials cost per part?
06:04 PM roycroft: how much will tooling cost per part?
06:05 PM ronox: money off the molded parts themselves? no
06:05 PM roycroft: i'm talking about making the molds
06:05 PM roycroft: that's what you said you want to do
06:05 PM roycroft: you also need to know how much it costs to operate your shop per hour
06:06 PM CaptHindsight: ronox: have an example of the parts you want to make out of plastic?
06:06 PM ronox: well, at one time i wanted to make gears but, i found that its easier to just buy existing ones and deal with the fitting process
06:07 PM ronox: one thing i cant do on my printer is make precise enough structures for gearboxes, like, just just a few layers of gears stepping up or down (not a transmission)
06:08 PM ronox: though molding that would be silly since it could also be done with a drill press
06:08 PM ronox: plus i wouldnt need that many
06:08 PM gregcnc: and these plastic parts can't jsut be machined ingoring molding altogether?
06:08 PM ronox: you can mill plastic?
06:08 PM gregcnc: ugh
06:08 PM gregcnc: yes
06:08 PM ronox: i was told a time ago its not possible and to look at injection molding for heavy duty soolid plastics :O
06:09 PM ronox: well shit
06:09 PM gregcnc: what is your design experience?
06:09 PM ronox: still, now and then ill just see my printer suck at making certain things and ill think, if that was solid plastic it would be so much better
06:09 PM ronox: hmm
06:09 PM CaptHindsight: nylon, delrin , etc all machinable plastics suitable for gears
06:10 PM ronox: mostly held back by lacking the tools to manufacture what i wanted
06:10 PM roycroft: yes, i was just going to say
06:10 PM tiwake: nylon is badass
06:10 PM gregcnc: but you didn't know plastic can be milled?
06:10 PM roycroft: you can machine those parts directly on a mill
06:10 PM tiwake: PTFE
06:10 PM roycroft: you don't need to injection mold them
06:10 PM roycroft: unless you need thousands of them
06:11 PM roycroft: and that little tormach will do a great job machining plastic
06:11 PM ronox: true. maybe molding is harder than im thinking even for inherently basic objects, its just something ive always wanted to try though
06:11 PM CaptHindsight: CNC Router Machining Nylon Gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N7SzgOpRHM
06:11 PM ronox: but molding cant be done without a mill to make the molds
06:11 PM roycroft: i promise, injection molding is harder than you think it is
06:11 PM tiwake: can confirm, I've machined nylon, delrin and others... they all machine quite nicely
06:11 PM tiwake: need reaaly sharp tools though
06:11 PM gregcnc: molding is high volume, in general
06:11 PM roycroft: you can make the molds by hand
06:11 PM roycroft: it will take an eon or two
06:12 PM roycroft: but you can do it if you're really determined
06:12 PM ronox: yeah, half the things i need dont need precision
06:12 PM CaptHindsight: Cutting Delrin Gear https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuKVXwDc2Rg
06:12 PM ronox: just some well placed screw holes and a filed edge or 2
06:12 PM ronox: and could otherwise be replicated using a clay mold or something silly
06:12 PM roycroft: people made accurate, intricate watches before they had engine lathes and milling machines
06:13 PM ronox: yeah i know, always mystified me that
06:14 PM andypugh: Softer than average soft-jaws: https://photos.app.goo.gl/1kPwbGQPRhFgqWKT6
06:14 PM ronox: actually, one thing i want to mold is, for an idea i had, of a little novelty game controller, i discovered my university had a free use license on this microscopic cheap bluetooth controllers proprietary programming IDE
06:14 PM CaptHindsight: tangental topic, cnc this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NkCYX2nXNM
06:15 PM ronox: i found out i could make a controller with a joystick and 4 buttons so small most people could barely hold it
06:15 PM roycroft: one of your countrymen does amazing things horilogical in the tiniest shop you can imagine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8Y146v8HxE&list=PLZioPDnFPNsETq9h35dgQq80Ryx-beOli
06:15 PM ronox: a case for this would be almost impossible to print though because some parts would be so thin
06:16 PM roycroft: i, btw, would buy an engine lathe before a milling machine
06:17 PM ronox: ive used an engine lathe before
06:17 PM roycroft: and i did - i first purchased a small engine lathe
06:17 PM roycroft: then a small vertical mill/drill
06:18 PM roycroft: then a small horizontal mill
06:18 PM roycroft: then a medium engine lathe
06:18 PM ronox: lathes are like way more stable right
06:18 PM roycroft: and if i can make the space, a medium vertical mill (bridgeport class) will be my next machine
06:19 PM ronox: i dont have the room for the kind of lathe id get
06:19 PM andypugh: I settled on a Universal mill. The swining table makes gear hobbing easier.
06:19 PM roycroft: at any rate, you should watch those clickspring videos for inspiration
06:19 PM roycroft: but don't blame me when you've missed supper and it's 3am and you're still watching clickspring :)
06:20 PM andypugh: I support Clickspring on Patreon. Heās making a decent living out of it.
06:20 PM roycroft: still in his tiny shed underneath the stairs?
06:20 PM andypugh: I donāt know.
06:21 PM andypugh: He seems to have about as much space as me.
06:21 PM ronox: welp, ive certainly learned a lot now
06:21 PM roycroft: actually, if you have a lot of space, that only means you don't have enough machines!
06:22 PM andypugh: Been playing with my new toy: https://www.aldi.co.uk/workzone-240v-portable-bandsaw/p/086075229503400
06:22 PM andypugh: Itās surprisingly good quality.
06:22 PM roycroft: i want to get a port-a-band
06:23 PM roycroft: i have a 7x12 bandsaw in the welding shop
06:23 PM Tom_itx: andypugh why the plastic softjaws?
06:23 PM roycroft: but i'd like something that's more handy for simple cutoffs in the main shop, and that i can cart around with me
06:23 PM roycroft: i'm pretty heavily invested in milwaukee 18v battery tools, including some of the new 9.0 batteries
06:24 PM Tom_itx is now known as Tom_L
06:27 PM roycroft: and the milwaukee 18v port-a-band fuel model is more powerful than their corded model, so that's likely what i'll end up getting
06:27 PM gloops: think it was Aldi who used to sell the 'pro' line of power tools, they were very cheap - but surprisingly long lived, i had a drill for years and years
06:27 PM andypugh: That Aldi bandsaw is a handheld / portable. But it comes with a vice base too.
06:27 PM gloops: i only bought it for one job
06:27 PM roycroft: the base is nice
06:27 PM roycroft: several folks have built bases for a port-a-band
06:27 PM andypugh: I spent today working on an alternative base for it. I want to be able to mount it on my lathe, for cutting off round bar.
06:27 PM roycroft: but it's nice to get one that already has one
06:27 PM roycroft: oh, that could be very handy
06:27 PM andypugh: Parting-off gets pretty difficult abouve about 3ā
06:27 PM roycroft: faster and safer than using a parting tool
06:29 PM CaptHindsight: I keep everything at least 3-4 inches off the floor except for cords
06:29 PM gloops: parting swarf usually curls
06:29 PM gloops: for me anyway
06:36 PM andypugh: Tom_L: The soft-jaws are to hold that delicate and soft pewter ring while I face it off. I 3d printed because making them out of metal would have needed a big piece, and there is a lot of work making the serrations and slots.
06:37 PM andypugh: Whereas printing was just something that happened overnight.
06:40 PM Tom_L: you probably printed those fairly dense for that
06:40 PM andypugh: Not really, itās very soft metal.
06:41 PM andypugh: So 15% fill. I made some wrong at 30% fill, but decided I wanted speed more than strength on the second set.
06:41 PM andypugh: But I use the cubic infill, which seems pretty strong.
06:41 PM Tom_L: did they center up fairly good?
06:42 PM Tom_L: if you're just doing the end it probably doesn't matter so much
07:31 PM andypugh: I faced off the flat, and as you say, I am just facing, so a bit of run-out is no issue.
09:49 PM Kevin`: soft jaws indeed
09:55 PM {HD}: What do you use as your feeds/speeds calculator?
09:56 PM pink_vampire: ear
10:09 PM Tom_L: https://zero-divide.net/?page=fswizard
10:09 PM Tom_L: is a good one
10:10 PM Tom_L: https://daycounter.com/Calculators/GCode/Feed-Rate-Calculator.phtml
10:11 PM Tom_L: personally i use my cad cam software
10:11 PM Tom_L: with somewhat of an idea of chipload i need
10:39 PM miss0r: goodmorning
10:41 PM pink_vampire: hi miss0r
10:43 PM miss0r: 04:40 in the morning here. I'm standing here with a mug of the blackest black you've ever seen, cursing myself over making some rather optimistic deadlines...
10:43 PM miss0r: hello pink_vampire
10:44 PM {HD}: Tom_L: cool I will give those a shot
10:51 PM {HD}: I donāt know if my machine can handle moving that fast...
11:00 PM roycroft: your machine wouldn't "voom" if you put four million volts through it?
11:05 PM jesseg: I tried out my new Chinesium VFD today. It's supposed to be 7.5 Chinese horse power, but I have no idea what it really can do, but it runs my 3HP mill quite nicely :P
11:06 PM jesseg: the real question is will it slam start my lathe but I haven't wired that in yet :P
11:11 PM jesseg: Difficulty with the lathe is it has electrically self latching relays to hold it in run forward or run reverse
11:11 PM jesseg: so if the voltage from the VFD drops too much when I hit the start button, the relay won't be able to hold in once the motor contacts
11:11 PM jesseg: but we'll see