#linuxcnc Logs

Oct 15 2018

02:00 AM Deejay: moin
05:17 AM jthornton: morning
05:17 AM trentster: Morning Everyone
05:17 AM Deejay: hi there
05:18 AM XXCoder: morning people
05:20 AM trentster: Can someone explain to me in a simple fashion how to compensate for lack of accuracy or backlash compensation. E.g. I tell the machine to cut a 100mm square and the sides when measured are 99.89mm
05:20 AM trentster: I tried to look at the documentation but I honestly find it very confusing.
05:21 AM XXCoder: .09mm? thats within tool size error if cheap
05:21 AM XXCoder: just change tool diameter
05:21 AM jthornton: the simple thing is to fix your machine to be accurate, backlash compensation can be unrewarding
05:22 AM XXCoder: yeah
05:22 AM trentster: jthornton: not everyone has the luxury to spend $500 on a super accurate ballscrew.
05:23 AM jthornton: it's not a luxury when you want accuracy at that scale
05:23 AM jthornton: 0.004" on a cheap machine could be tool flex
05:23 AM trentster: XXCoder: You mean just change the diameter in CAM (e.g. Fusion 360) or add an offset in toolpath op?
05:24 AM XXCoder: why? just adjust it in linuxcnc
05:24 AM trentster: XXCoder: explain how pls (LinuxCNC)
05:24 AM XXCoder: if its set to WEAR (ie tool diameter is zero its accounted for by cam) then just set diameter to -.035mm
05:24 AM XXCoder: it'll make holes .09mm bigger and outsides .09mm smaller
05:25 AM XXCoder: .035mm for inverse size change
05:26 AM XXCoder: its a workaround mind, as if your machine has backlash it might not 100% fix it
05:26 AM jthornton: so to answer your question there are two methods one is backlash compensation and the other is screw mapping
05:26 AM jthornton: which reminds me I need to add to the screw mapping docs some info that Rob informed me about
05:26 AM XXCoder: jthornton: yeah wondered about second one. sounds awesome but not sure how one would gather data
05:27 AM XXCoder: I know theres settigns specific to backlash but I dont know where it is as I never used it
05:28 AM jthornton: 123 blocks and maybe gauge blocks, it does interpolate between points
05:28 AM trentster: jthornton: It was just an e.g. The actual numbers vary I have only tested in hardwood at the moment( not super accurate material, I know) and I cut a 65mm square, the sides vary from 64.86 to 64.96mm. This is a DIY built moving gantry router, using cheap Chinese ballscrews, not sure if my expectations are not realistic. Opinions?
05:28 AM XXCoder: what sensors do it use?
05:28 AM trentster: Inductive proximity
05:28 AM XXCoder: +- .05mm
05:29 AM trentster: XXCoder: That would only effect homing and not cutting a square part.
05:29 AM XXCoder: thats .0002" pretty impressive
05:30 AM jthornton: to get the accuracy you seek you need both a rigid machine with quality ball screws... but playing around with screw compensation could be fun
05:30 AM XXCoder: +- so total range .0004" not bad
05:30 AM XXCoder: honestly homebrew I would expect .001"+-
05:30 AM XXCoder: err .001" range I mean meaning .0005"+-
05:31 AM jthornton: I don't think cheap chinlee screws are anything near that
05:31 AM XXCoder: chin lee brand screws :P
05:32 AM XXCoder: trentster: honestly your machine is goof for homebrew. could just comp using backlash or tool diameter comp
05:32 AM trentster: BTW this is the material I am cutting, no cute comments about what I am making, it's for the wife to sell. ;-)
05:32 AM XXCoder: *good
05:32 AM trentster: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lz5TOsxLyd4
05:32 AM XXCoder: ya saw
05:33 AM rmu: XXCoder: 0.001" = 0.025mm
05:33 AM XXCoder: rmu: and?
05:33 AM jthornton: trentster: the moment or two view of the machine looks pretty nice, do the parts need to fit together?
05:34 AM jthornton: also wood moves a lot as the moisture level changes
05:34 AM XXCoder: if it does just make lid and container size difference at upper end of your machine tol
05:34 AM XXCoder: it would fit. yeah would need more than that for wood changes alone
05:35 AM jthornton: aye
05:35 AM rmu: XXCoder: so +-0.05mm is +-0.002", not that impressive
05:35 AM trentster: XXCoder: Thanks for the info, but even so a cheap machine should be able to be made super accurate. You seen the guy using on Youtube getting VMC level results on a cheap Chinese 3040 machine?
05:35 AM XXCoder: rmu: checked my math yeah acciently moved . to right lol
05:35 AM jthornton: most putube videos are lies
05:35 AM XXCoder: thanks
05:36 AM rmu: trentster: how did you measure?
05:36 AM jthornton: so trentster first you need to measure what is the source of the problem then you can address that
05:36 AM trentster: jthornton: No the parts don't need to fit together, but they actually do when I invert the heart positive and put it into the negative they click together perfectly with no gap.
05:37 AM trentster: rmu: Digital calipers (Igaging)
05:37 AM trentster: jthornton: Care to elaborate on the identifying the source of the problem thong?
05:37 AM trentster: *thing
05:37 AM jthornton: digital calipers can be off quite a bit due to operator pressure on the jaws
05:38 AM rmu: esp. if measuring wooden parts
05:38 AM XXCoder: jthornton: I always use same pressure I use setting caliper zero to measure stuff
05:38 AM XXCoder: quite accurate
05:38 AM jthornton: is the problem screw is not accurate, is the problem backlash etc
05:38 AM rmu: additionally, the calipers probably are only accurate to +-0.05mm max
05:38 AM Tom_L: 33�F Hi 47
05:38 AM Tom_L: first look at snow last night
05:38 AM XXCoder: depends on who made em
05:39 AM jthornton: XXCoder: right and your a seasoned machinist like me and know about that kind of stuff
05:39 AM XXCoder: 3 of mine is quite accurate
05:39 AM Tom_L: jthornton where are the docs for mapping?
05:39 AM rmu: XXCoder: igaging sounds like cheap chinese razor-edge calipers, but i don't really know
05:40 AM Tom_L: i've always wondered how that was done
05:40 AM XXCoder: jthornton: problem is tool might be off from spec so it might be actually .03mm bigger for example
05:40 AM XXCoder: so it might be just tool
05:40 AM XXCoder: expensive tools at work is all slightly different in sizes, and cheap tools is worse
05:40 AM trentster: jthornton: This is the youtube video guy I was talking about, it looks legit to me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lunou93re9g
05:41 AM rmu: tool might be off, spindle may have runout, collet has runout, etc...
05:41 AM jthornton: Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/config/ini-config.html#_axis__lt_num_gt_section
05:42 AM trentster: rmu: jthornton I get calipers can be off, but they should be consistently off no? like each side should be out by the same amount on the calipers. Right
05:42 AM jthornton: both mapping and backlash is in the AXIS section of the ini
05:42 AM Tom_L: thanks
05:42 AM Tom_L: i knew backlash was
05:42 AM rmu: accurately measuring the tool diameter also can be tricky
05:42 AM XXCoder: trentster: clean your cali blades on paper, hand tight move it out
05:42 AM XXCoder: then remember your hand pressure as you set it to zero
05:43 AM XXCoder: then you use same hand pressure to measure
05:43 AM * jthornton uses his shirt to clean the caliper blades
05:43 AM XXCoder: adjust it around find whatever seems most accurate
05:43 AM Tom_L: i wish there was more on that
05:43 AM jthornton: more on what?
05:43 AM Tom_L: comp files
05:43 AM XXCoder: jt shirt might depost fibers. I use paper squeaky clean, strips oils also
05:43 AM trentster: rmu: The calipers are very good in my opinion, not Mitutoyo level but close.
05:43 AM jthornton: what do you need to know?
05:44 AM Tom_L: how you would go about mapping a table
05:45 AM jthornton: that would be machine dependent but the basic procedure could be move to a position then measure the actual and record both
05:45 AM trentster: Tom_L: I have tried to read the docs on comp files but it's not easy to understand. Like a lot of LinuxCNC docs, a sample example would makes things a gazillion times easier.
05:45 AM jthornton: it has a simple example
05:45 AM jthornton: ...
05:46 AM Tom_L: i'll look at it more when i've got time
05:46 AM trentster: jthornton: Really, maybe I looked at the wrong docs then.
05:46 AM rmu: trentster: even the mututoyo is only accurate to +-0.02mm at best
05:46 AM rmu: mitutoyo
05:46 AM jthornton: must have been a putube video lol
05:47 AM trentster: rmu: yes but it would be consistently inaccuarte within that tolerance, my sides measurements are all over the place (cut square)
05:48 AM XXCoder: trentster: same tool, same material but considently differnt sizes?
05:48 AM Tom_L: what's the + at the end of the first example for?
05:49 AM Tom_L: so you would have a separate comp file for each axis
05:50 AM jthornton: that is someone editing the docs that does not know how to do so, they were attempting to make the second line be indented like the first but the + is not needed
05:50 AM jthornton: I thought I had removed all that crap...
05:50 AM Tom_L: :)
05:51 AM trentster: XXCoder: No, consistently differing sizes on different sides, at first I thought it had to do with machine being out of square, but I worked hard on getting the machine square and I am pretty darn sure it's square now. Using the 4 dowel hole method each 600mm apart, I get the exact same distance measurement from top left dowel to bottom right and vica versa.
05:51 AM rmu: trentster: you can not make machines that are as stiff as rubber make arbitrarily accurate, even if some random guy on youtubes says so
05:51 AM trentster: So it must either be backlash or crappy ballscrews
05:51 AM jthornton: aye
05:51 AM Tom_L: so the file can be as coarse or fine as you want and have as many lines as you need
05:52 AM rmu: ballscrews are not 0.1mm crappy, you would easily detect that when moving them by hand
05:52 AM rmu: trentster: can you check runout on your spindle
05:53 AM jthornton: Tom_L: yes, but the values must start at the lowest number and work up ie if you use - numbers you must start with -0.some value and work up to the largest value
05:53 AM trentster: rmu: did you watch the video? The guy specifically explains how he improved the rigidity of his machine. Granted it's still a Frankenstein, but his results don't lie…unless you truly believe he is specifically trying to deceive.
05:54 AM trentster: rmu: I lucked out on runout on my spindle. Inside bore runout is less than 0.02mm. The Chinese collets I am using are a different story tho.
05:54 AM * jthornton does not believe putube video claims that seem too good to be true having seen hundreds of them that outright lie
05:54 AM trentster: jthornton: fair enough.
05:55 AM rmu: trentster: the video is 1hr long, so i did not watch it
05:56 AM Jin^eLD: hi
05:56 AM * jthornton grabs a second cup of joe and attempts to fix the comp docs sigh
05:57 AM trentster: rmu: rendering an opinion without observing the evidence first, is not exactly empirical. I suggest skipping to the end where he measures his part on his surface plate, last few minutes.
05:59 AM rmu: i did not render any opinions, i tried to be helpful and point out typical problems i encountered
06:00 AM trentster: rmu: Apologies mate, I am a bit cranky today. I appreciate your help.
06:00 AM rmu: cutting aluminium with small tools and no tool pressure under water doesn't flex the machine but may lead to other problems like excessive tool wear, chatter on the surface and so on
06:01 AM jthornton: Tom_L: the limit is 256 lines of comp per axis
06:01 AM rmu: np
06:04 AM Tom_L: so how would you specify the x y coordinate for a z value?
06:04 AM Tom_L: are each of the 3 files coordinated with each other?
06:04 AM Tom_L: even if they're nominal
06:07 AM jthornton: a comp file is for a single axis you can't map the xy for z
06:10 AM * jthornton bangs his head on the table and wonders what is meant by traveling forward/backward in a comp file...
06:19 AM jthornton: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/tGWWTwndTj/ Tom_L does this make more sense?
06:19 AM jthornton: https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/jdqD77yhbp/
06:21 AM jthornton: ignore the spellos lol
06:30 AM XXCoder: trentster: back for a minute, is your machine skipping steps?
06:31 AM jthornton: XXCoder: good point!
06:34 AM trentster: XXCoder: no, I don't think so. How would one know?
06:34 AM XXCoder: not sure as as I un derstand it its based on audio or something
06:34 AM miss0r2: I had to make some circuit diagram drawings on-site, a few hours ago. So i went to the nearest A4 printer, and grabbed a stack of paper to draw on. The paper quality was realy thick and nice for a place that saves money on just about everything. So when I got home a little while ago, I noticed that the paper was folding strangely. Apparently I just grapped 500 watermarked printable stickers :D Good thing noone noticed :D
06:35 AM jthornton: trentster: after cutting a part return to a known position and measure the location
06:35 AM XXCoder: ohh docs stickers
06:36 AM miss0r2: XXCoder: hehe yeah :)
06:36 AM jthornton: I hate it when I forget a label is in the printer and print something
06:36 AM miss0r2: Hehe, I don't realy use labels in the printer. That is why the thought never crossed my mind
06:36 AM XXCoder: you could print some stickers over doc reuse it. its expensive sheets lool
06:37 AM jthornton: I print shipping labels all the time and forget all the time...
06:37 AM miss0r2: :D
06:37 AM trentster: jthornton: XXCoder it's not missing steps. I can switch off the machine rehome and cut a new part on the same fixture part aligned with dowel pins to the spoilboard and it repeats every time.
06:38 AM miss0r2: I think this must have a nice price tag on it, it has the company logo on each sticker "watermarked" in there. I didn't notice in the quite dim lighting conditions in there
06:38 AM XXCoder: need to move it around some more
06:38 AM jthornton: good, that is one thing out of the way
06:38 AM XXCoder: some losses is compulative
06:38 AM XXCoder: make a program to make it "draw" a spirl
06:38 AM XXCoder: longer the better
06:40 AM miss0r2: trentster: Now we are both here: :D
06:40 AM miss0r2: I can't recall if I ever got my question answered: You wrote me a loooong time ago asking if I was there. Any particular reason? :)
06:43 AM jthornton: the stepper test in the docs is a good way to test rapids
06:45 AM trentster: miss0r2: lol. Hi there mate. I was planning on asking you about dual steppers on a single axis, but the consensus was I needed to reload my machine with the pre-release version of LinuxCNC to get the functionality to home each side of the axis to seperate proximity sensors. I opted to just put a single ballscrew and stepper in the centre in the interim. Thanks for remembering me tho.
06:46 AM miss0r2: trentster: No problem :) I was just curious. I honnestly had forgotten all about it, but seeing you name ringed a bell :)
06:50 AM trentster: jthornton: If my steppers were missing steps I would have picked it up in this kind of operation, right? - e.g. rehoming machine and drilling dowel holes on spoilboard directly over threaded inserts in bottom board. I would have had a misalignment right? http://take.ms/5oFRw
06:53 AM jthornton: when you home the machine you will remove any missed steps
06:55 AM trentster: I ran the machine the other day, literally from early morning until night, making these parts and putting them in and out of the fixture plate for different operations, never picked up a single issue. http://take.ms/aku8Bm
06:56 AM trentster: I guess that means no missed steps.
06:56 AM trentster: At least afaik.
06:56 AM jthornton: yep if you can run the machine all day and not re-home the axes I'd say your correct
06:56 AM trentster: Cool…phew.
06:56 AM XXCoder: likely yeah
07:22 AM jthornton: geez wtf does this mean lol Units used for distances along the X, Y, and Z axes may be measured in millimeters or inches. Units for all other quantities involved in machine control cannot be changed.
07:22 AM jthornton: Different quantities use different specific units.
07:37 AM Tom_L: so you can't map the height of a table?
07:37 AM Tom_L: and yes your doc is clearer
07:38 AM jthornton: right, and I'm still trying to clear that section up a bit more lol
07:38 AM Tom_L: so what's the point of mapping Z?
07:39 AM jthornton: to compensate for a Z screw that is not accurate
07:39 AM Tom_L: it would be nice if you could take an xcomp, ycomp and zcomp file and map it
07:39 AM jthornton: you command -1.000 and get -0.995 because the screw pitch is not exact
07:40 AM Tom_L: have the x y coordinates known for a z value
07:40 AM jthornton: you can probe a part to do that
07:42 AM jthornton: that would be a huge file to compensate for every XYZ position lol
07:43 AM Tom_L: depends on the stepover for each one
07:43 AM Tom_L: the other question is, does it average the comp between points?
07:44 AM jthornton: yes it interpolates between nominals
07:44 AM Tom_L: you measure 1, 2, 3 what happens to 1.5 2.5 3.5?
07:46 AM Tom_L: so skunkworks must have mapped his corrugated steel when he did his plasma comp
07:46 AM jthornton: no that is the THC working
07:47 AM Tom_L: that's what led me to believe you could map the table
07:48 AM Tom_L: time's up. gotta go
07:49 AM jthornton: me toop
07:49 AM jthornton: too even
07:49 AM Tom_L: tiny bit of snow stuck but just in patches
08:19 AM Loetmichel: Tom_L: SNOW?
08:19 AM Loetmichel: over here in germany its 26°C :-)
09:23 AM skunkworks: we got a dusting of snow too
09:23 AM skunkworks: (I think I am near-ish to tom)
09:30 AM * JT-Shop is glad he measured the thread pitch of the 30-30 screw before ordering the tap...
09:34 AM CaptHindsight: Sears sold its signature tool brand to Stanley Black & Decker in a deal valued at $900 million last year...
09:39 AM jesseg: haha sears
09:40 AM jesseg: when I was in my late teens I saved up my lawn mowing earnings and rode my bicycle to town to buy a craftsman socket set at the sears store - it was on sale for $88
09:41 AM jesseg: I still use it to this day some 20 odd years later
09:41 AM jesseg: but a couple months ago I wanted a spare wrench to cut in half to make a special tool so I ordered a craftsman combo wrench off ebay for $6 or whatever..
09:42 AM jesseg: man I tell you either it was a fake or their quality has plummeted. The edges were sharp and it was just cheaply made. Not that I care, I cut it in half for my project but it was a surprise
09:44 AM skunkworks: their quality has ebbed and flowed...
11:11 AM fragalot: hey
12:34 PM Tom_L: Loetmichel yeah, that white stuff that falls from the sky...
12:39 PM Deejay: must be fake news ;)
12:56 PM CaptHindsight: Stanley is the high end hand tools found in the Chinese home improvement stores
12:56 PM CaptHindsight: had to import good stuff
12:58 PM CaptHindsight: had a partner there that wanted to manufacture machines without us having to buy a single tool or machine
12:59 PM CaptHindsight: he actually thought we could manufacture QUALITY equipment there using all outside sources
01:00 PM CaptHindsight: just to prove my point as to how silly that idea was I let him try to build one prototype for a trade show....
01:00 PM fragalot: you can get high quality import
01:00 PM CaptHindsight: it showed up the day before the show and nothing fit
01:01 PM fragalot: lol
01:01 PM fragalot: spec sheet must have been wrong
01:01 PM CaptHindsight: I spent the night at the hotel drilling and cutting everything to fit
01:01 PM CaptHindsight: with my bag of tools purchased at the nearby electronics mall
01:02 PM CaptHindsight: spec sheet, whats a spec sheet, you just point and tell them what you want :)
01:03 PM fragalot: but from a cost perspective
01:04 PM fragalot: how long would it have taken you to make it all from scratch, rather than order the "kit" that only requires 1 night of modifications
01:04 PM fragalot: think about that for a minute. :P
01:04 PM CaptHindsight: a few days extra
01:05 PM fragalot: so really your colleague let you focus on the more important matters for those extra days, get some additional cash in to cover the expenses for his f*ck up
01:05 PM CaptHindsight: he was Chinese and didn't want to spend the funding
01:05 PM fragalot: also, youtube is really messing me over today, it's the third time I click on a video and a completely unrelated one plays
01:06 PM CaptHindsight: bait and switch youtube
01:08 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: do you own any KAKA?
01:08 PM fragalot: do I want to know what that means?
01:09 PM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/bl_uJke1dxM?t=12
01:09 PM fragalot: no
01:10 PM fragalot: looks neat for shearing PCB's though
01:10 PM CaptHindsight: was looking at notchers yesterday https://www.kakaindustrial.com/
01:10 PM CaptHindsight: poor choice of name for a western co
01:10 PM fragalot: lol
01:10 PM fragalot: I wonder if they make pull-out systems
01:11 PM Rab: A less prestigious brand than KUKA.
01:11 PM CaptHindsight: "Hey, it's Kaka!"
01:12 PM CaptHindsight: tech support line
01:16 PM fragalot: heh i've got the upgraded version of kaka's G25B drill press
01:20 PM fragalot: those prices on kuka's site look surprisingly cheap compared to what i've seen around these regions for the same stuff
01:23 PM Simonious: we are considering one of these at the office, got any reasons we should pass it up? https://www.pcmag.com/review/359957/dremel-digilab-3d45-3d-printer
01:23 PM fragalot: it's a dremel
01:23 PM SpeedEvil: #reprap also
01:23 PM SpeedEvil: Oh
01:29 PM gregcnc: all plastic huh
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.xyzprinting.com/en-US/product-level/PROFESSIONAL/color-series
01:31 PM Simonious: CaptHindsight: that your recommendation?
01:31 PM CaptHindsight: I haven't seen any of the color prints from one of these
01:31 PM CaptHindsight: wondering which inkjet cartridge they use
01:33 PM gloops: ive got a kiku
01:33 PM CaptHindsight: Simonious: I have no recommendation for you
01:33 PM Simonious: noted
01:34 PM Simonious: https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15710 this is another one we are considering. Note this would be a 3rd 3d printer for the shop
01:34 PM FinboySlick: CaptHindsight: The vernier calipers in on their website look very cheap.
01:35 PM Rab: Simonious, what are your first and second printers?
01:36 PM gregcnc: so they dye each layer? 40 patents worth?
01:36 PM Simonious: Mendelmax custom and uhm.. I'm working from home today, thinking about what that other one is.
01:36 PM Simonious: Rab: ahh and Bibo
01:37 PM Simonious: Rab: the Mendelmax is mine and no one wants to take the time to tune it up, it works and I've done some nice upgrades on it, but.. it doesn't get used much
01:37 PM Simonious: The Bibo has been treating us well for the most part and makes nice prints.
01:40 PM gloops: my Kiku (not a drill) http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=3ca4915e3042ce9e64d376240ae3477e
01:41 PM Rab: Simonious, looks like another Bibo would be half the price of the Dremel...what am I missing?
01:42 PM Simonious: Rab: nothing really, the guys just like to try out different things.
01:44 PM CaptHindsight: HP45 https://www.hobbywarehouse.com.au/xyz-printing-da-vinci-color-ink-cartridge-cyan.html
01:52 PM CaptHindsight: how much would you pay for 5-axis open source CAM?
01:55 PM gloops: would need to try it first
01:55 PM Rab: The same as I'd pay for open source EDA: depends on how good it is.
01:55 PM Rab: (Good) EDA and CAM are both hard problems, needing a lot of domain knowledge...I wouldn't mind financially supporting a usable effort, if that's what it takes.
01:56 PM gloops: not happening though, look at freecad, heekscnc, blendercam etc
01:57 PM gloops: although apparently blendercam does have 4 axis beta kind of thing
01:58 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.pocketnc.com/ is just the machine?
01:59 PM CaptHindsight: been working with PyCAM lately
01:59 PM CaptHindsight: I have Mastercam and NX by the way
02:00 PM gloops: pyCAM usually crashes doesnt it?
02:00 PM Rab: I guess Pocket NC farms the CAM side out to Fusion 360.
02:00 PM CaptHindsight: heh I mentioned Blendercam in #blender
02:01 PM gloops: looks like development slowed right down
02:01 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: you have to have all the matching dependencies
02:02 PM CaptHindsight: took about a day of trial and error to get pycam stable
02:03 PM gloops: hmm shame, a lot of people would have moved onto something else in that time
02:04 PM Rab: CamBam awaits with open arms.
02:07 PM Simonious: I use F360, I've tried CAMBAM, but it's been about 3 years now.
02:16 PM CaptHindsight: blendercam has the best UI
02:16 PM CaptHindsight: but limited features
02:17 PM CaptHindsight: pycam without psyco is a bit slow
02:18 PM CaptHindsight: wasn't IchGuks working on the CAM for freecad?
02:18 PM gregcnc: pocketnc oushes f360
02:18 PM gregcnc: pushes
02:20 PM Joe_Hildreth: Hello all.
02:20 PM CaptHindsight: what to use for 5-axis cam if you are adding as well as cutting material?
02:21 PM CaptHindsight: does f360 let you make enough mods to be usable?
02:23 PM Joe_Hildreth: Other than a sanity check when using stepconf and perhaps some fine tuning are there any other reasons to take the time to calculate the steps per machine units?
02:24 PM gregcnc: does fusion do additive?
02:24 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: never tried it
02:27 PM CaptHindsight: https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/fusion-360/learn-explore/caas/sfdcarticles/sfdcarticles/Can-Fusion-360-create-a-model-for-3D-printing.html
02:28 PM CaptHindsight: it just gets you a 3d model, an STL for instance
02:28 PM gregcnc: right you still use a slicer
02:28 PM gloops: quite a few free and cheap addons for f360 for various things
02:28 PM gregcnc: theier "slicer" add in doesn't do the same
02:29 PM CaptHindsight: have to use something else to control the ebeam, phasers and particle manipulators
02:30 PM CaptHindsight: say you have 5-axis that jets metal particles as well as cuts with a spindle
02:31 PM gregcnc: oh boy. I have to finish this job, then pack up everything in the coming weeks
02:32 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr_PneeyO34
02:32 PM CaptHindsight: is there any CAM to control such a machine? besides what Mori must have written
02:34 PM gregcnc: "Siemens NX: Complete Hybrid CAD / CAM – Module for additive and subtractive programming One software package for the complete process chain (design, additive process, substractive machining, finishing)"
02:35 PM gregcnc: just add it on to your NX?
02:35 PM CaptHindsight: i left out open
02:36 PM CaptHindsight: yeah NX and mastercam
02:36 PM CaptHindsight: all the open slicers don't support cutting tools or >3-axis
02:37 PM CaptHindsight: if I ask or discuss anything in #reprap it immediately turns to some nonsense about smoothie
02:38 PM CaptHindsight: or GRBL
02:39 PM gregcnc: are these guys lookign for development? https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/verashape-launches-open-innovation-program-vshaper-5-axis-3d-printing-129579/
02:49 PM gregcnc: matching paint https://grandrapids.craigslist.org/tls/d/clausingprecision-variable/6723881332.html
02:49 PM gregcnc: https://grandrapids.craigslist.org/tls/d/hardinge-hc-precision-lathe/6723909915.html
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, i wonder who the rebuilder is
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: repainter at least
02:51 PM CaptHindsight: same seller different CL towns
02:52 PM CaptHindsight: https://images.craigslist.org/00Z0Z_71YCE2iikes_1200x900.jpg machine in the background is also painted similar
02:53 PM gregcnc: lol a whole shop full
02:53 PM CaptHindsight: there is a CNC scraper in Grand Rapids
02:53 PM syyl: wow
02:53 PM CaptHindsight: see them on ebay all the time
02:53 PM syyl: that color scheme
02:54 PM syyl: after a day running any of those machines i probably want to poke my eyes out with a screwdriver.
02:56 PM CaptHindsight: https://youtu.be/d1nOfPoSDsw?t=8
03:19 PM MrHindsight is now known as CaptHindsight
03:20 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: ever work with sintered metal parts?
03:20 PM andypugh: Not really
03:22 PM CaptHindsight: exaggerated pic on the right of sintered metal powder https://www.exxentis.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sintered-metal-porous-aluminium-permeable.jpg
03:24 PM CaptHindsight: what's a cheap and easy way to fill the gaps with metal?
03:24 PM syyl: silversolder?
03:24 PM syyl: in a oven
03:24 PM syyl: *silverbraze
03:25 PM syyl: whatever the right term is
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: copper maybe
03:25 PM CaptHindsight: silver is pricey
03:27 PM gregcnc: i thought it's normal to braze the sintering
03:30 PM CaptHindsight: http://mpif-extension.org/ferrous/index.php?album=Copper-and-Copper-Alloys/Copper-Infiltrated-Iron-and-Steel-Etched
03:34 PM CaptHindsight: http://edge.rit.edu/edge/P10551/public/SFF/SFF%202001%20Proceedings/2001%20SFF%20Papers/09-Lorenz.pdf
03:38 PM CaptHindsight: https://cyber.sci-hub.tw/MTAuMTAxNi9qLnBvd3RlYy4yMDA0LjA1LjAwNg==/dck2004.pdf#view=FitH
03:39 PM CaptHindsight: does this link work? ^
03:39 PM FinboySlick: CaptHindsight: Are you in the prototype phase yet?
03:40 PM gregcnc: link is good
03:41 PM gregcnc: https://youtu.be/20R9nItDmPY?t=181
03:43 PM CaptHindsight: FinboySlick: with sintered metals?
03:45 PM Deejay: gn8
03:47 PM FinboySlick: CaptHindsight: Yup.
03:49 PM CaptHindsight: FinboySlick: downsizing and economizing the tech for DIYers
03:53 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: yeah if you're going to sinter steel then infiltrating with bronze is at a lower temp
03:54 PM CaptHindsight: if you want stronger than just sintered the parts will just have to bake
03:55 PM CaptHindsight: Step 5: bake at 1510 C for 4-6 hours until infiltration is complete
04:00 PM SpeedEvil: 1510C sounds unlikely
04:00 PM CaptHindsight: if you want to sinter steel then you need the temp
04:01 PM CaptHindsight: if you just want to infiltrate steel powder with bronze then you can use a much lower temp
04:01 PM SpeedEvil: In that that's the melting point
04:02 PM CaptHindsight: bronze is ~1000 C
04:04 PM CaptHindsight: what the max temp of affordable hobby kilns?
04:09 PM roycroft: i have a small kiln that i use for heat treating that claims to be able to reach 1275c
04:09 PM roycroft: i've not gotten it that hot
04:09 PM roycroft: and it runs off 110vac
04:09 PM roycroft: it's a pretty small kiln
04:11 PM roycroft: 1500 is hotter than a hobby kiln gets
04:12 PM roycroft: cone 12 is 1285c ,and that's hot enough for firing almost any porcelain clay/porcelain glaze
04:18 PM SpeedEvil: Mine only goes to 950.
04:18 PM SpeedEvil: I want one that goes to 1100.
04:18 PM JT-Shop: mine goes to 2350°F
04:18 PM SpeedEvil: (c)
04:18 PM SpeedEvil: I'd actually like to play with cast steel.
04:19 PM SpeedEvil: So ~1600 would be nice.
04:19 PM JT-Shop: I wonder what my melt oven goes to... it's propane powered
04:20 PM JT-Shop: so 1287°C is pretty hot lol, 240v 45amp
04:21 PM JT-Shop: http://gnipsel.com/images/casting/Burner%20Test%2003.jpg
04:21 PM JT-Shop: http://gnipsel.com/images/casting/furnace%2003.jpg
04:24 PM * JT-Shop needs to put a neat 0.375" hole in the center of a piece of 0.005" x 3/4" shim stock...
04:24 PM CaptHindsight: JT-Shop: how high do you think it goes?
04:25 PM CaptHindsight: what alloys have you used?
04:25 PM JT-Shop: I've just melted lead and aluminum in there, the refractory is not a super high heat one
04:27 PM roycroft: make a sammich, jt-shop
04:27 PM CaptHindsight: inkjet and powder is too delicate for DIY
04:28 PM CaptHindsight: nozzels clog sometimes by just looking at them wrong, never sneer at inkjet nozzles
04:28 PM JT-Shop: roycroft: that's what I'm doing with some wood
04:28 PM gloops: well they claim the gingery style kilns can melt copper
04:28 PM gloops: with ventilation and propane on the charcoal
04:29 PM gloops: lot of youtube vids showing brass being melted
04:29 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.bigceramicstore.com/kilns/kiln-types/electric-ceramic/small-electric-ceramic-kilns.html
04:30 PM roycroft: if the hole needs to be precisely centered that can be a challenge
04:30 PM roycroft: but the hole itself should be easy
04:31 PM JT-Shop: it's just a shim for the bearing block on an old jointer my buddy gave me... the infeed and the barrel were not parallel
04:32 PM roycroft: should be pretty easy then
04:33 PM roycroft: a gasket punch and a backer block of wood should be fine for that
04:34 PM CaptHindsight: 5KW kiln run for 24 hours = 120KWhrs x $0.14 = $16.80/day
04:34 PM CaptHindsight: thats not bad
04:35 PM CaptHindsight: ^16.88 x 30
04:35 PM CaptHindsight: $504/month if run 24/7
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: and this is for a pretty good sized kiln http://www.bigceramicstore.com/olympic-s18e-electronic-model-solid-jacket-22486.html
04:36 PM roycroft: but it won't run full time
04:36 PM roycroft: once it heats up it will start cycling
04:36 PM roycroft: assuming you have a temperature controller for it
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, worst case
04:37 PM CaptHindsight: hackerspace in Siberia with no heat
04:37 PM CaptHindsight: or Minnesota
04:37 PM roycroft: if it's decently insulated it will probably cycle on 10-25% of the time once it's reached the set point
04:37 PM CaptHindsight: $100/month to run tops
04:38 PM CaptHindsight: since you have to cool down and load unload
04:38 PM roycroft: unless you "tend" it frequently
04:38 PM CaptHindsight: hackerspace
04:39 PM CaptHindsight: so random projects
04:39 PM roycroft: hackerspaces tend to be full of lookey loos
04:39 PM roycroft: so it would be "tended" far too frequently
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: "hey whats this switch do?"
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: mostly ruin pottery
04:40 PM roycroft: "wow! this thing is hot!"
04:40 PM roycroft: "when i open the door i get a blast of heat in my face and it singes my hair!"
04:40 PM roycroft: DDTT
04:43 PM CaptHindsight: bronze infiltrated https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214860416301506
04:46 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Powder-325-mesh-1-lb/dp/B017Y2HOQO ~$11/lb on mamazon
04:47 PM CaptHindsight: 0.044 mm No. 325 0.0017"
04:52 PM JT-Shop: bah my indicator bar has a nick... I'll grind it flat tomorrow
05:19 PM gloops: hmm, wondering what engineering use these new fishing magnets could be put to
05:21 PM gloops: 300kg magnet, that might hold a job for machining
05:21 PM gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Magnet-Fishing-Neodymium-Magnets-MEGA-MAG-90kg-200kg-300kg-double-sided-UK/273341192386?
05:22 PM SpeedEvil: gloops: you probably want to put it into a properly shaped box, with appropriate pole pieces, and make a magnetic switchable clamp.
05:23 PM gloops: yeah something like that
05:23 PM SpeedEvil: Simple magnets are really quite annoying to put stuff on and remove them from.
05:23 PM gloops: the 130kg ones are pretty cheap
05:39 PM pink_vampire: what consider good price for 36"X30"X3/8" 6061-T6?
05:40 PM jthornton: wow that will not be very flat...
05:40 PM pink_vampire: what do you mean?
05:41 PM gloops: 1 inch piece here $500
05:41 PM jthornton: pretty big and pretty thin for 6061, all my stock over about 6" wide is not flat
05:42 PM gloops: yeah you want the cast plates
05:42 PM jthornton: if it's for a door mat that's ok if you want to have a flat part get MIC-6
05:42 PM pink_vampire: i'm cut small parts and fly cut all sides
05:42 PM jthornton: then why such a huge sheet?
05:43 PM gloops: i bought 2 rolled plates, put them back to back you could get a matchstick down the middle of the cupping
05:43 PM pink_vampire: how is that for 100$?
05:47 PM jthornton: my buddy gets 6061 drops from a place in St Louis for pennies on the dollar
06:04 PM pink_vampire: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1996-KAWASAKI-ZX600-E-RADIATOR-FAN-W-GUARD-DENSO-122000-4390-/301287217351
06:05 PM gloops: perfect
06:05 PM pink_vampire: is there a way to know what voltage the fan need?
06:05 PM pink_vampire: gloops: I have it
06:06 PM gloops: probably 12v
06:07 PM pink_vampire: i was trying 12 and it was INSANE
06:09 PM infornography: 6v?
06:09 PM infornography: Look up battery for that bike
06:09 PM gloops: they are fast fans though
06:09 PM pink_vampire: I have no idea
06:11 PM gloops: well just regulate it until you think its about right
06:12 PM jthornton: well I got the digole oled to show up on the i2c buss finally
06:17 PM pink_vampire: infornography: the battery is 12V
06:27 PM pink_vampire: is there any direction to it?
06:34 PM Jin^eLD is now known as Jin|away
06:40 PM gloops: im not sure what the big thing with magnet fishing is, not sure how many valuable things in rivers there, made of iron
06:40 PM gloops: probably loads of gold and silver stuff
06:41 PM pink_vampire: true
06:53 PM infornography: I worked around a dock for a while, I bet there is a ton of hammers screws and cordless drills down there. Maybe even a couple of golfcarts
06:54 PM infornography: People around houseboats get drunk and all sorts of things end up in the water
07:54 PM gregcnc: hmmm....https://www.engadget.com/2018/10/15/dell-49-inch-ultrawide-dual-qhd-monitor/
08:00 PM _unreal_: any one seen ziper lately
08:01 PM Tom_L: gregcnc, http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/cad-station.jpg
08:03 PM gregcnc: i have a pair of 24" 1920x1280
08:04 PM Tom_L: mine are 1920 x 1080
08:04 PM gregcnc: 1200
08:05 PM Tom_L: 24"
08:05 PM Tom_L: but who can keep up with tech...
08:05 PM Tom_L: oh x 3 but i only use 2
08:05 PM gregcnc: just looking for excuses to upgrade
08:06 PM Tom_L: you can always come up with one of those
08:06 PM gregcnc: well not good ones
08:06 PM Tom_L: optional
08:11 PM gregcnc: this might be more practical for what i do http://a.co/d/d2uHpxN
08:13 PM Tom_L: mine have dual inputs so i use one for irc here when i'm not using it for cad
08:13 PM Tom_L: 2 pc
08:14 PM Tom_L: i don't leave the main one on 24/7
08:20 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxQS58t39_U all this monitor talk has made me nostalgic
08:22 PM skunkworks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpB8O9_5_Ro
08:25 PM Tom_L: took ~10 min to warm up..
08:26 PM Tom_L: no solder mask back then either
08:44 PM flyback: paul allen died
08:51 PM gregcnc: i had a 24" crt for a while, i'd have to think hard to remember which
09:54 PM _unreal_: flyback, does that mean microsoft now has 2 feet in the grave :)
10:08 PM flyback: not funny dude
10:08 PM flyback: as much as we want to push m$ in the head repeately till we die of exhaustion
10:08 PM flyback: very few of them deserve to die alone of lymphoma
10:09 PM flyback: if hexchat autocorrects my words one more time I am going to give someone lymphoma
10:09 PM flyback: punch
10:09 PM flyback: puncnh
10:09 PM flyback: hmm
10:32 PM MarcelineVQ: pomch