#linuxcnc Logs

Sep 11 2018

12:00 AM fragalot: hey
12:03 AM pink_vampire: hi fragalot
12:59 AM miss0r: mornin
01:01 AM pink_vampire: hi miss0r
01:02 AM miss0r: hello pink_vampire. Up to anything interresting?
01:04 AM pink_vampire: not much, other then someone that ask for advice for a mill and someone told him to get an "othermill"
01:06 AM miss0r: :] Yeah, that sounds like 'not much'.
01:52 AM Deejay: moin
04:19 AM XXCoder: random comment
04:20 AM SpeedEvil is now known as Guest64753
04:25 AM pink_vampire: XXCoder: lol
04:26 AM XXCoder: heh wow pretty quiet
04:26 AM pink_vampire: 5AM lol
04:26 AM XXCoder: 2 am here :)
04:27 AM pink_vampire: I'm working on the mess
04:30 AM XXCoder: cool. im just chilling and relaxing before bed
04:42 AM XXCoder: damn andy video theres couply scary parts
04:42 AM XXCoder: like some guy looking very close at cutting machine with no goggles
04:43 AM XXCoder: you couldnt [pay me enough money to do that
04:43 AM pink_vampire: XXCoder: what videos?
04:43 AM XXCoder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZHsDMJKJuk
04:45 AM selroc: hi
04:45 AM XXCoder: hey
04:45 AM pink_vampire: hi selroc
04:45 AM selroc: hi pink
04:46 AM pink_vampire: hi how are you?
04:47 AM selroc: I am in good shape :-)
04:47 AM selroc: pink, I have restarted to project my mill
04:48 AM pink_vampire: XXCoder: I can't stand the black on the nails
04:48 AM pink_vampire: selroc: what do you mean by "restart"
04:49 AM selroc: I have been busy with something else, so I am restarting now
04:50 AM pink_vampire: cool!
04:50 AM pink_vampire: i also need to finish with the servo spindle
04:54 AM selroc: do you need help ?
04:54 AM XXCoder: man tht was nice video. also scary at points
04:58 AM pink_vampire: hehe mental help
05:26 AM jthornton: morning
05:26 AM XXCoder: yo
05:35 AM BitEvil_ is now known as SpeedEvil
05:35 AM Tom_L: morning
05:45 AM miss0r: mornin'
05:45 AM miss0r: err.. good afternoon
05:47 AM XXCoder: 100 cases of whopping cough at one area :( damn antivaxs
05:49 AM XXCoder: aka pro-diease
05:49 AM miss0r: Antivaxers should be forced to buy an island, where they can live on their own
05:49 AM XXCoder: probably last one or 2 generation
05:51 AM miss0r: damn. I do not envy the mess andy pugh is making with that cast iron
05:52 AM XXCoder: danger, wil roberson, danger
05:52 AM XXCoder: no goggles
10:31 AM tjtr33: seb_kuzminsky, Linuxcnc on RPi3B, ssh'd in, not fast but solid for a week now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7IiN9R_kD0
11:02 AM tjtr33: oh well link only works on the box i sent it from, some youtube incubation period i think
11:24 AM pcw_home: I've had LinuxCNC master/Axis up for about two months now on a RPI3B (local graphics Hardware OpenGL enabled)
11:26 AM pcw_home: Its OK unless you have too fancy backplots ( its unusable without hardware OpenGL enabled )
11:37 AM pcw_home: stable but slow (maybe about equivalent to a 2008 Intel Atom)
12:19 PM FinboySlick: Is it relatively easy to split the gui parts of linuxcnc from the control core? I've always liked the notion of running the UI part on a separate system.
12:20 PM Tom_L: i can just picture an rpi running stuart's old cincinatti
12:20 PM FinboySlick: Tom_L: Are there any more videos of that one? It's the gigantic 5axis, right?
12:21 PM Tom_L: yes they're still on yt
12:21 PM FinboySlick: I meant newer ones.
12:21 PM Tom_L: not that i know of since he left MPM
12:21 PM Tom_L: i doubt he put that in his pocket when he left
12:22 PM Rab: FinboySlick, I was determined to do that a few years ago when I was trying to run Machinekit on a BeagleBone Black and AXIS performance was poor. I remember obstacles seemed serious enough that I gave up on the BBB entirely.
12:23 PM Rab: Of course Machinekit is not exactly the same thing as LinuxCNC.
12:23 PM Tom_L: close
12:24 PM Tom_L: i'm sure the coders would argue that :)
12:24 PM Rab: First I tried X forwarding and VNC, and performance was just as bad as onboard graphics. About 10 FPS.
12:24 PM FinboySlick: Rab: Well, for me it's more about the natural separation between process and interface than running on an embedded board. That's a great bonus too mind you.
12:26 PM FinboySlick: Think of it as a 'socket' UI where you can plug whatever you want.
12:26 PM FinboySlick: That would let us do something like browser-driven UI or what have you.
12:26 PM Rab: Well, some of the fundamental components were rewritten for the BBB PRUs and were not feature compatible with e.g. stepgen on x86. The LinuxCNC documentation did not apply, and the differences were not well documented.
12:26 PM FinboySlick: Or a full blown graphical UI running on a different OS entirely.
12:26 PM Rab: To be fair, it was a rapidly moving work in progress at that time and may be very different today.
12:28 PM Rab: FinboySlick, yeah, I think that is a cool and obvious concept. Have real-time embedded hardware tied to the machine, and run the interface on a nice workstation fast enough to run your CAM toolchain etc.
12:29 PM Tom_L: isn't that what alot of the usb controls do?
12:30 PM Tom_L: probably all
12:30 PM Rab: Of course the LinuxCNC GUIs are abstracted. I just couldn't figure out how to make the abstraction work over a network.
12:37 PM FinboySlick: Tom_L: USB controls are sort of similar but I think they still rely on the host CPU to do some of their work.
12:38 PM FinboySlick: Tom_L: What we're talking about is having completely separate processes (running on the same or different machine) to handle the control side and the UI side.
01:06 PM pcw_home: I think MachineKit has done more to isolate the GUI/RT portions but they have not replaced NML with ZeroMQ yet, and I'm not sure if that work is ongoing
01:07 PM pcw_home: https://machinekoder.com/machinetalk-explained-part-1-introduction/
01:08 PM miss0r|office2: bah! linuxcnc.org is only allowing me to download at 100KB/sec
01:09 PM miss0r|office2: sometimes moving up to 300, but most of the time steady at 100
01:09 PM miss0r|office2: Did I hit happy hour or something?
01:14 PM FinboySlick: pcw_home: Oh noooooo! They use protobuf!
01:16 PM FinboySlick: Protobuf is the threshold into re-invent-the-wheel web developer thinks he's a programmer territory.
01:23 PM fragalot: miss0r: le schaublin is on it's own little feet!
01:25 PM miss0r|office2: fragalot: Nice :D
01:26 PM miss0r|office2: leveled to perfection, I presume? :)
01:26 PM fragalot: not yet, job for tomorrow.
01:26 PM miss0r|office2: it was probally hard enough to just get it on the feet :D
01:27 PM fragalot: it was... couldn't get the pallet jack under it without getting it wedged
01:27 PM fragalot: so had to shimmy it down, shift it using a crowbar inch by inch
01:27 PM fragalot: shimmy it up again
01:27 PM fragalot: remove the old crusty non-adjustable feet
01:27 PM miss0r|office2: damn. I remember doing stuff like that before I bought the hydraulic machine jack
01:27 PM fragalot: which were bolted on INSIDE OF THE CASTING
01:27 PM miss0r|office2: xD !
01:28 PM fragalot: :P
01:28 PM miss0r|office2: Who the hell does that ? :D hehe
01:28 PM fragalot: schaublin, apparently
01:28 PM miss0r|office2: schaublin..
01:28 PM miss0r|office2: :D
01:28 PM fragalot: the front 2 have nice access pockets
01:28 PM fragalot: the rear ones do not offer any access, other than a tiny cutout in the center of the back when you've removed the tank
01:29 PM miss0r|office2: made for people with tiny tiny arms
01:29 PM miss0r|office2: preferable with another joint on'em
01:29 PM fragalot: so you have to wedge yourself between the wall & the machine, bend your arm in 2 different directions, dig through a thick layer of molten together chips, and then unscrew the old foot
01:30 PM miss0r|office2: Sure sounds like alot'a fun :D
01:30 PM fragalot: I forgot to mention that the feed gearbox is dripping oil onto your face at that point
01:30 PM miss0r|office2: hahaha
01:30 PM * fragalot still needs to look if there's seals on that knob or if he simply over-filled it
01:31 PM miss0r|office2: I would've loved to be a bystander right there
01:31 PM miss0r|office2: next time, please do invite me to be a live audience
01:33 PM fragalot: you were invited, you just didn't accept it
01:40 PM miss0r|office2: I didn't feel like it was heartfelt ;)
01:41 PM FinboySlick: fragalot: How come it has chips in there? You should clean the schaublin. Love the schaublin, show it that she is your mistress forever.
01:42 PM fragalot: FinboySlick: I did everywhere I could reach
01:43 PM FinboySlick: You can do better and she knows it.
01:43 PM FinboySlick: When you lie to us, you lie to yourself.
01:50 PM Jin^eLD: fragalot: some time ago you said that you are interested in the MAHO mh400 component and that I should let you know when there is anything
01:50 PM fragalot: Jin^eLD: more accurately, miss0r|office2 is.
01:50 PM Jin^eLD: oh ok
01:51 PM Jin^eLD: well yeah, you said you knew someone who would be interested :) but did not say who back then
01:51 PM fragalot: :D
01:51 PM Jin^eLD: anyway, we're probably start testing with real hardware this week
01:51 PM fragalot: sweet
01:51 PM Jin^eLD: from my perspective it's feature complete, some tuning will probably still need to happen
01:51 PM Jin^eLD: but so far I only tested it with a simulation I wrote
01:52 PM Jin^eLD: let's see how it works out in real life, but otherwise its implemented
01:53 PM fragalot: glad to hear
01:53 PM Jin^eLD: https://github.com/jin-eld/mh400e-linuxcnc
01:53 PM fragalot: miss0r: you around still?
01:54 PM miss0r|office2: yep.. on and off a bit
01:54 PM miss0r|office2: Trying to figure out why I am having troubles doing something as trivial as booting a live CD :D
01:54 PM fragalot: miss0r|office2: meet Jin^eLD. Jin^eLD, meet miss0r|office2 .
01:54 PM fragalot: Jin^eLD has been kind enough to do all the hard work for you for your conversion :D
01:54 PM miss0r|office2: Nice to meet you, Jin^eLD
01:55 PM miss0r|office2: That sounds interresting :)
01:55 PM miss0r|office2: I should have spoken to him before doing it all from scratch :D
01:55 PM Jin^eLD: hey miss0r
01:55 PM Jin^eLD: ah, you were coding something similar as well? :)
01:56 PM miss0r|office2: Jin^eLD: Hello. So you have gotten yourself into a maho retrofit mess as well ? :)
01:56 PM miss0r|office2: I have not gotten that far yet. So far I've gathered components needed & made the electrical drawings
01:57 PM miss0r|office2: At the moment I am trying to do something as simple as booting a linuxcnc livecd, which for some reason the computer will not accept :)
01:57 PM Jin^eLD: miss0r: actually it's not me who got himself into that mess ;) it's a friend of mine
01:57 PM Jin^eLD: but since he is not a software dev I kind of decided to help him
01:57 PM miss0r|office2: ...sure it is :D
01:57 PM Jin^eLD: and coded the gearbox component for him
01:57 PM miss0r|office2: That is the part I am most interrested in, actualy.
01:57 PM miss0r|office2: what maho are you programming on? (model)
01:58 PM Jin^eLD: he has gathered a lot of info, he also got schematics from MAHO (they were nice enough to send it to him)
01:58 PM Jin^eLD: MH400E
01:58 PM Jin^eLD: that's his thread: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/12-milling/33035-retrofitting-a-1986-maho-mh400e?start=0
01:58 PM miss0r|office2: the 400E - that is a dual speed motor with.. 18 speed gearbox?
01:58 PM Jin^eLD: quite long, I have to admit I did not read all of it :)
01:58 PM miss0r|office2: I can't remember the number of gears :)
01:58 PM Jin^eLD: yes, 18
01:58 PM Jin^eLD: + neutral
01:59 PM Jin^eLD: and three motors to control the gear change
01:59 PM MrHindsight: the i.mx8 is a good fit for porting machinekit since it has open gpu drivers, 2 PRU's and several ARM cores to split real from non-real time threads
01:59 PM Jin^eLD: miss0r: https://github.com/jin-eld/mh400e-linuxcnc/wiki/MH400E-Gearbox--Description first photo
01:59 PM miss0r|office2: On my 500C, I've only got two motors to do the gears. But the main spindle motor is controlled by a VFD
01:59 PM MrHindsight: waiting for all the hardware bugs to get sorted out
02:00 PM Jin^eLD: so they use a gearbox AND a vfd for the spindle speed? a bit odd, no?
02:00 PM Jin^eLD: I thought its usually either-or
02:00 PM miss0r|office2: Jin^eLD: well, I can choose 20-4000rpm as 1rpm incriments.
02:00 PM Jin^eLD: ok thats nice indeed
02:01 PM fragalot: miss0r|office2: also, because you were looking for these. http://www.ymttooling.co.uk/tooling-accessories/1897-er40-hex-quick-index-holder.html
02:01 PM MrHindsight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I.MX#i.MX_8_series
02:01 PM Jin^eLD: he has 18 fixed speeds in the range from 18 to 4000 rpm
02:01 PM miss0r|office2: That is possible with the gearbox combined with the cfd
02:01 PM Jin^eLD: so I had to quantize whatever input I get to the best matching possible speed
02:02 PM Jin^eLD: aem, not 18 sorry, 80
02:02 PM miss0r|office2: fragalot: That is cheap :) It *MUST* be good then
02:02 PM miss0r|office2: Jin^eLD: 80 gear combinations?
02:02 PM Jin^eLD: no, 80 rpm lowest, 4000 rpm highest, 18 gears not counting neutral
02:02 PM miss0r|office2: ahh, alright. I was just about to loose my mind there :)
02:03 PM miss0r|office2: I don't know how many gear combinations I have. But I do recall seeing a a schematic of it somewhere in a binder
02:03 PM Jin^eLD: yeah sorry, it was a mind-typo, I wanted to write the lowest and highest range but wrote 18 instead of 80 because I was thinking about the gears lol
02:04 PM miss0r|office2: It happens
02:04 PM miss0r|office2: :]
02:05 PM Jin^eLD: well, not sure how helpful the comp would be for you, given that your model seems to be quite different
02:05 PM miss0r|office2: Yeah, I'm not so sure either. I guess I'll have to write one(Have fragalot help me out)
02:05 PM fragalot: still is a good example to start from, still need to select the gears
02:05 PM Jin^eLD: the MH400E has three shafts, each controlled by a motor as in the photo I linked above
02:05 PM miss0r|office2: Its gonna be alot of hard work(listening to fragalot complaint about it), but someone has to do it :)
02:06 PM fragalot: miss0r|office2: I have zero investment in this so far :D
02:06 PM Jin^eLD: and you have to control these motors in a special order
02:06 PM miss0r|office2: fragalot: _so_far_
02:06 PM Jin^eLD: fragalot: so basically you are the sw dev for miss0r while I am the sw dev for my buddy? :)
02:06 PM Jin^eLD: makes us colleagues or something hehe
02:06 PM fragalot: I guess it does
02:07 PM miss0r|office2: Jin^eLD: Indeed. I think/hope theres going to be some documentation describing the operation of the two gear shafts on this model somewhere in the documentation. Otherwise I'll just have to look at it operate
02:07 PM MrHindsight: CFD = constant frequency drive?
02:07 PM fragalot: MrHindsight: computer fluid dynamics
02:08 PM Jin^eLD: miss0r: on the MH400 there is a manual mode where they describe how to rotate the shafts manually in case the motors do not work, the positions are color coded
02:08 PM Jin^eLD: again - you see those color dots in the photo
02:08 PM MrHindsight: ah was just skimming the comments, must have misread
02:08 PM Jin^eLD: so you could check if your motors are marked in some way as well
02:08 PM miss0r|office2: Yeah. I'm not so sure you can do that on the 500, though
02:08 PM Jin^eLD: miss0r: for the MH400E the info was in the manual
02:08 PM Jin^eLD: so I'd start there
02:09 PM miss0r|office2: Yeah. I'm already shoulder deep in piles of documentation at the moment :)
02:09 PM Jin^eLD: it took us quite a while to come up with a spec in which direction to to rotate and under which circumstances
02:09 PM Jin^eLD: they also have lowspeed mode when you are aiming for the middle shaft position
02:10 PM miss0r|office2: Yeah. I'm thinking it'd be wise to make alot of gear changes using the philips 432, and take notes of how it does stuff
02:11 PM miss0r|office2: But for the time being, I am just trying to see if I can boot a USB key on the new computer hardware I want to use in the controller.
02:11 PM fragalot: Jin^eLD: I have to say, I appreciate the comments in your comps
02:11 PM miss0r|office2: Apparently that task is too hard for me :)
02:11 PM miss0r|office2: fragalot: What.. are they not in danish?
02:11 PM Jin^eLD: that was not possible in our case because he got his MAHO with a dead philips controller :)
02:11 PM miss0r|office2: yeah
02:12 PM Jin^eLD: fragalot: I figured that for once I will probably forget a lot of that stuff myself in a month or so :) and then I was hoping to keep it useful for others
02:12 PM Jin^eLD: so I almost overcommented it
02:13 PM fragalot: no such thing
02:15 PM Jin^eLD: I had a half finished comp for an MH700, someone from the forum gave it to my friend
02:15 PM Jin^eLD: but I did not like it and - well - it was not commented at all and the logic was not clear to me
02:15 PM Jin^eLD: first thing I forced by friend to make a flowchart, you'll see it in the docs directory
02:15 PM Jin^eLD: I suggest you pester miss0r to do the same for you ;) that helped me a lot
02:16 PM Jin^eLD: it's missing one update for my most recent changes, but its quite complete otherwise
02:16 PM miss0r|office2: fragalot: pleast start pestering me, so you can get to work :D
02:16 PM Jin^eLD: lol :))))
02:17 PM fragalot: miss0r|office2: hell no the longer you take the longer I can spend quality time in me own shed :D
02:19 PM miss0r|office2: hehehe
02:19 PM miss0r|office2: Why am I unable to boot an f'ing usb key..!
02:20 PM XXCoder: what happens when yoy try?
02:22 PM miss0r|office2: Nothing basically. The boot menu recognizes it, but when I try to use it, it changes to a black screen for �sec then returns to the boot menu
02:22 PM Jin^eLD: miss0r: do you have some secure boot/uefi crap enabeld in bios maybe?
02:23 PM Jin^eLD: I have a notebook thats a pain when it comes to booting something
02:23 PM miss0r|office2: Jin^eLD: I'm searching like crazy. But I can't seem to find anything about that in the bios
02:24 PM miss0r|office2: well, secure boot is disabled.
02:24 PM miss0r|office2: I did that earlier
02:24 PM Jin^eLD: is the usb stick efi capable? you may want to enable secure boot and add the grub-something.efi file to your bios as trusted
02:25 PM miss0r|office2: hmmm. That sounds like alot of trouble to be allowed to just boot an USB :)
02:25 PM Jin^eLD: thank M$ for it :P
02:26 PM Jin^eLD: most likely that was the whole poin tof introducing that stuff in the first place
02:26 PM miss0r|office2: If I ever thank them, it will be with alot of sarcasm
02:26 PM Jin^eLD: I was not serious either ;P
02:26 PM miss0r|office2: I know :)
02:27 PM miss0r|office2: well.. I've just searched some forums.
02:27 PM miss0r|office2: The bios detects weather or not the thumbdrive is UEFI or not, and treats it as such. So far I've tried with one that isn't and one that is.
02:41 PM MrHindsight: thank Intel for the heap of crap EFI (the OS) is
02:49 PM miss0r|office2: This is truly a pain
02:51 PM pcw_mesa: and ME (though AMD has the roughly equivalent = PSP?)
02:51 PM MrHindsight: yeah somebody twisted AMD's arms to go all closed firmware again
02:52 PM pcw_mesa: also thank DRM
02:52 PM MrHindsight: users can't be trusted
02:52 PM fragalot: I love DRM
02:52 PM fragalot: just like license servers
02:53 PM fragalot: the only people that get hurt by them are those that paid
02:53 PM pcw_mesa: you think you own the computer you bought but not really
02:53 PM fragalot: pcw_mesa: will that hold up in court? :D
02:54 PM fragalot: "it's not mine"
02:54 PM miss0r|office2: :D
02:54 PM miss0r|office2: It more and more looks like I've bought a paper weight here
02:56 PM MrHindsight: Direct Rendering Manager (DRM) isn't bad, it just made the kernel more bigger
02:57 PM MrHindsight: my phone?! I don't even have root
02:57 PM fragalot: MrHindsight: I especially liked the older generation of DRM they tried
02:57 PM fragalot: "it's encrypted from start to finish!" "well, apart from that bit in the middle"
02:57 PM XXCoder: miss0r|office2: check if usb drive was flashed badly
02:58 PM XXCoder: I had to reflash linuxcnc on my usb drive couple times before it worked, and usb drive died short time after that lol
02:58 PM miss0r|office2: XXCoder: Yeah.. I'm on my 3rd attempt with this key here, and 4th with another
02:58 PM MrHindsight: 12 years ago we could fit a Linux kernel into 256KB
02:59 PM miss0r|office2: bah. I need to call it a night. See you around
02:59 PM XXCoder: later sometimes rest makes you see things better
02:59 PM MrHindsight: fresh eyes
02:59 PM pcw_mesa: Ive had terrible luck with USB drives, seems like about 50% die after a few uses
03:00 PM MrHindsight: been getting my flash drives from Microcenter
03:00 PM MrHindsight: so far so good
03:00 PM Jin^eLD: USB drives die quickly because they have no wear levelling
03:00 PM mozmck: I have seen only one microcenter drive go bad in the 12 or so years I've been buying them.
03:00 PM Jin^eLD: if you want to use something like that permanently, better get an sdhc which you can also plug in via some usb adapter
03:01 PM mozmck: That one was bad right off and they replaced it.
03:02 PM MrHindsight: I recall getting my first Flash kit in sometime in '90. Was a few devices on an ISA card and a few lines of source
03:03 PM Jin^eLD: I'm off, nite
03:03 PM MrHindsight: wear leveling, what wear leveling :)
03:03 PM Jin^eLD: fragalot: if you have questions about the code or the comp feel free to PM me, I might not be in the channel regularly
03:03 PM fragalot: I remember having an organizer box ofr my JAZ drives
03:03 PM pcw_mesa: The problems Ive had seem to be infant mortality, ones that work keep on working
03:03 PM fragalot: Jin^eLD: Will do! :D
03:03 PM Jin^eLD is now known as Jin|away
03:03 PM MrHindsight: that was what the card was for, so that you could write it
03:18 PM Loetmichel: *gnhihi* Voice from the kitchen: "AU!" $me:"What happened?" Wife:"Nothing, just cut myself while cutting those bread rolls open, they were a bit to long in the oven" $me:"You are not allowed to damage my wife, you know that?" *moving my ass into the kitchen, giving her a hand with those breadrolls* $me:"AU!" her:"You are not allowed to damage my husband, you know that?" ... then we both stood
03:18 PM Loetmichel: there, sucking at our thumbs giggling at each other... ;)
04:17 PM MacGalempsy: hello :)
04:17 PM JT-Shop: yo
04:18 PM MrHindsight: MacGalempsy: been away?
04:31 PM Deejay: gn8
04:35 PM MacGalempsy: making chips?
04:39 PM MrHindsight: not a big chip maker
04:39 PM MrHindsight: more automation than chips
04:46 PM MrHindsight: https://peel-3d.com/products/peel-3d-scanner
04:47 PM MrHindsight: $6k, 0.5mm res
04:50 PM MrHindsight: https://www.artec3d.com/portable-3d-scanners/artec-eva-lite similar specs $10k
05:02 PM MacGalempsy: did you get demoted from Capt?
05:11 PM MrHindsight: no, zis is vhat happeinings vhen you logs outs and ins too fastin
05:11 PM MrHindsight is now known as CaptHindsight
05:12 PM CaptHindsight: worked
05:20 PM MacGalempsy: the world was a little out of phase. staying busy?
05:26 PM CaptHindsight: busy is easy, paid is another story
06:46 PM CaptHindsight: https://alicevision.github.io/
08:02 PM MacGalempsy: evertry 123D Catch? never had any luck with it.
08:11 PM CaptHindsight: Autodesk 123D Catch (Discontinued) and winders only??
08:11 PM CaptHindsight: there are winders apps up the wahzoo
08:55 PM MacGalempsy: never heard the term winder
08:57 PM Tom_L: what about ardweenie?
08:58 PM Rab: One of the kinder terms I've heard.
09:07 PM CaptHindsight: lotsa winders, 93, 95, 98 2000, wista, xp
09:08 PM Tom_L: me
09:08 PM CaptHindsight: yup
09:08 PM Tom_L: 3.1
09:08 PM roycroft: i got an email from autodesk today informing me that my fusion 360 license was being converted into a $300+/year license that does everything
09:08 PM Tom_L: awesome
09:08 PM CaptHindsight: how nice of them
09:08 PM roycroft: i need to make sure they don't have a credit card # on file from me
09:08 PM roycroft: i don't think i ever gave them one
09:09 PM CaptHindsight: probably asked for it 2 years ago for "verification" purposes
09:09 PM roycroft: this after i told there sales critter a half dozen or so times that i am not interested in their product because it is cloud-based
09:09 PM Tom_L: it's a try before you buy thing
09:09 PM roycroft: and that i've attempted to use my "hobbyist" license a couple times and decided it's not useful for me
09:09 PM CaptHindsight: we only use bowl based software...
09:10 PM CaptHindsight: connected by a series of tubes
09:10 PM skunkworks: way width fix...
09:10 PM skunkworks: http://electronicsam.com/images/greenmachine/20180911_175630.jpg
09:11 PM CaptHindsight: https://horus.readthedocs.io/en/release-0.2/ looks like another orphaned Linux 3D scanner project
09:12 PM Tom_L: couple oopsie holes in the side of the table too
09:12 PM CaptHindsight: https://github.com/LibreScanner/horus/tree/develop
09:13 PM CaptHindsight: skunkworks: very nice
09:19 PM skunkworks: almost to the point of re-assembly
09:21 PM ziper: i got a quote for someone to make the mold I need for 200-300 dollars. and i need 5 of them. guess I am building a router
09:45 PM CaptHindsight: ziper: why build when you can just pay someone else and pick them up when they are done?
09:46 PM ziper: because that is more than i want to pay for something made out of wood
09:46 PM ziper: and that is 5 molds only for the first set of parts. i want to tweak it that is another set
09:47 PM Tom_L: i'll make em for 199-299
09:50 PM ziper: i'd probably only get them made for 150
09:52 PM Tom_L: what sort of mold?
09:53 PM ziper: a female for a fiberglass hydrofoil
09:53 PM Tom_L: i made one of those once
09:53 PM Tom_L: used to race model boats
09:53 PM ziper: something like this http://puu.sh/BtzM3/5cef6b9c72.PDF
09:54 PM ziper: i havnt actually decided on the section, though
09:55 PM Tom_L: got got a point cloud for the shape or what?
09:56 PM ziper: igs?
09:56 PM Tom_L: longer than alot of machines' travel
09:56 PM Tom_L: oh that's mm
09:57 PM ziper: no its inches lol
09:58 PM ziper: i dont put that much effort into my drawings
09:58 PM Tom_L: unless otherwise specified dimensions are in milimeters
09:58 PM Tom_L: what's it for?
09:58 PM Tom_L: blade of some kind obviously
10:00 PM ziper: the vertical part http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_ftlYXm-HmU/VKwxBehpmxI/AAAAAAAACDE/05oSpoBMEd0/s1600/IMAG0163.jpg
10:00 PM ziper: http://www.thedailysail.com/files/article_images/_MG_3420_620.jpg
10:01 PM Tom_L: carbon fiber?
10:01 PM ziper: yes
10:01 PM Tom_L: you got an autoclave?
10:03 PM ziper: more or less
10:03 PM ziper: i dont use prepreg so 120C is about the max anyway
10:04 PM Tom_L: is the blade tapered end to end?
10:04 PM Tom_L: or consistent to the cross section
10:07 PM ziper: the drawing is the strut and it is constant chord
10:07 PM ziper: the horizontal would be tapered
10:07 PM Tom_L: ok
10:07 PM Tom_L: my little mill is too small anyway
10:08 PM flyback: that shit is insane Tom_L ziper
10:08 PM flyback: <Tom_L> ok
10:08 PM flyback: <Tom_L> my little mill is too small anyway
10:08 PM flyback: THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID
10:08 PM flyback: anyways the crazy shit
10:09 PM flyback: the autoclaves, electric crucibals
10:09 PM ziper: can't it be done in sections
10:09 PM flyback: just have a liner made from graphite or ceramic
10:09 PM flyback: fragile little mofo
10:09 PM flyback: protecting the whole steel unit from melting heat
10:09 PM Tom_L: my bud had a machine that would do it but he's retired now
10:09 PM Tom_L: ~60" travel in x iirc
10:09 PM flyback: how old are you Tom_L
10:09 PM Tom_L: 1
10:10 PM flyback: bmcc
10:10 PM * flyback beats Tom_L with rue_MOHR
10:10 PM flyback: but seriously
10:10 PM flyback: that just blows my mind
10:10 PM _unreal_: flyback, ?
10:10 PM flyback: watching ceramic liners and also ceramic holding catalysts
10:10 PM flyback: and glowing
10:10 PM flyback: at temps where metals BOIL
10:10 PM flyback: and it's just taking it
10:11 PM _unreal_: ok...?
10:11 PM Tom_L: they've got a fair size autoclave at the vo-tech
10:11 PM _unreal_: I must have missed that link
10:11 PM Tom_L: and they do all sorts of carbon fiber etc
10:11 PM _unreal_: oh
10:11 PM flyback: _unreal_, he was talking about autoclaves
10:11 PM flyback: and I was saying how fascinating it is
10:11 PM flyback: to see this little steel autoclave, or oven to melt metals
10:12 PM flyback: and all that is protecting the unit itself is a layer of ceramic or graphite
10:12 PM Tom_L: or cure carbon fiber
10:12 PM flyback: oh carbon fiber is high temp?
10:12 PM flyback: I thought it oxidizes or burns
10:12 PM Tom_L: not that high
10:12 PM roycroft: autoclaves don't get very hot
10:12 PM * _unreal_ palm to face
10:12 PM roycroft: just hot enough
10:12 PM flyback: _unreal_, ?
10:12 PM flyback: roycroft, yeah I know
10:12 PM Tom_L: i've never messed with the stuff personally but i've seen it done
10:13 PM flyback: I was just ranting in general
10:13 PM _unreal_: flyback, carbon has no o in it
10:13 PM Tom_L: i've done plenty of fiberglass
10:13 PM flyback: _unreal_, I SAID
10:13 PM flyback: AT HIGH TEMPS
10:13 PM flyback: it might start to oxidize or burn
10:13 PM * flyback punches _unreal_not_paying_attention
10:13 PM _unreal_: ! damn force feed back keyboard
10:14 PM flyback: I bet shell has millions of tons of ceramic
10:14 PM ziper: this chat is canucked
10:14 PM flyback: at the plastics plant they are building 20 mins from here
10:14 PM flyback: did you know
10:14 PM ziper: epoxy resin will foam if you get it above a couple hundred degrees
10:14 PM flyback: 1 gram of a titanium based catalyst
10:14 PM flyback: 1 gram
10:14 PM flyback: yields 1 ton of polyethylene plastic
10:14 PM flyback: before it's gone
10:14 PM _unreal_: should see the custom fairing block I built today out of G10 for a boat. to put a fwd facing sonar on a boat
10:15 PM _unreal_: ON the fwd. V hull had to be very high and tight
10:15 PM _unreal_: and torpedo shaped and strong
10:15 PM Tom_L: ziper, you'll spend more on making a router to make those than paying to have them made
10:15 PM _unreal_: OMG what a pain in the ass it was
10:15 PM roycroft: a catalyst facilitates, but does not directly participate in a chemical reaction
10:15 PM ziper: what, a submarine hunter?
10:16 PM ziper: Tom_L, you really think so? I thought I could do it with chinese parts for 1000
10:16 PM roycroft: it shouldn't be surpising that a small amount of a catalyst can effect a comparatively large reaction
10:16 PM _unreal_: ziper, what kind of a router?
10:16 PM Tom_L: and unless you want warpage you'll need a more rigid mold
10:16 PM flyback: roycroft, I know that but they get degraded
10:16 PM flyback: by byproduct reactions
10:16 PM flyback: or mechanical stress
10:16 PM ziper: say, 40x12x3 inches, foam and wood
10:16 PM flyback: wearing away
10:17 PM flyback: I am aware they aren't consumed directely by the reactions
10:17 PM _unreal_: ziper, are you talking a cnc machine?
10:17 PM ziper: yes
10:17 PM _unreal_: ugh.... then say cnc machine or cnc mill
10:17 PM _unreal_: a router is a hand held or table mounted tool
10:17 PM flyback: my dad had one
10:18 PM flyback: the noise used to scare me
10:18 PM _unreal_: ziper, how thick is the fiberglass you want to cut with it?
10:18 PM flyback: ziper, be aware cutting fiberglass
10:18 PM ziper: i'm not cutting the fiberglass, just the mold
10:18 PM _unreal_: whats the mold going to be made out of
10:18 PM flyback: it's not as horrible as asbestus etc but it can still probably cause a lot of lung irritation
10:18 PM flyback: ah ok
10:19 PM ziper: wood or foam lol
10:19 PM Tom_L: gawd doen't anybody pay attention
10:19 PM flyback: must be adhd singles night
10:19 PM flyback: *zing*
10:19 PM _unreal_: ziper, if your milling FOAM you could get a $350 usd mill off the internet that would do the job just fine
10:19 PM _unreal_: and fit your work area
10:20 PM ziper: where
10:20 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, ?
10:20 PM _unreal_: ziper, try amazon for starters
10:20 PM _unreal_: 40x12x3 is very small
10:20 PM roycroft: a good, common example would be a catalytic convert for an automobile exhaust system
10:20 PM _unreal_: though 40" long is interesting...
10:20 PM flyback: _unreal_,
10:20 PM flyback: i HAVE SEEN that
10:20 PM _unreal_: flyback, ?
10:20 PM roycroft: a tiny amount of platinum converts many tons of exhaust gases before it is no longer effective
10:20 PM flyback: guy build a cnc mill for foam for planes
10:20 PM roycroft: and even then that platinum can be recovered by a recycler
10:20 PM flyback: it was just steppers and taunt heating coil wires
10:21 PM _unreal_: flyback, thats a hot wire
10:21 PM flyback: yeah it was awesome
10:21 PM ziper: I don't think that can do washout or shit
10:21 PM flyback: roycroft, yep
10:21 PM _unreal_: I dont know if he is planing on using a hot wire OR an end mill style
10:21 PM ziper: and I want something that can make bulkheads. I should go bigger than 12. maybe 24 or 30
10:21 PM flyback: some of those catalysts are worth recovering the dust left on the machine even
10:21 PM flyback: this one plant
10:22 PM _unreal_: ziper, ahhh
10:22 PM flyback: their doormats
10:22 PM flyback: suck in
10:22 PM Tom_L: hotwire will sag in the center
10:22 PM flyback: to get any dust that came off
10:22 PM _unreal_: I build boats for a living
10:22 PM _unreal_: Tom_L, depends on speed and temp
10:22 PM _unreal_: and wire guage and other factors
10:22 PM _unreal_: ziper, I can answer any FRP question you have
10:23 PM _unreal_: ziper, also if your going to use a CNC mill for cutting fiberglass you use a rotory rasp
10:23 PM ziper: IM NOT CUTTING ANY FIBERGLASS
10:23 PM flyback: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNdNSZ9Trxk
10:23 PM flyback: OWNS YOUR "CANUCK"........................CANUCK
10:23 PM _unreal_: ziper, https://www.lowes.com/pd/Dremel-Steel-Cutting-Bit/1245703?cm_mmc=SCE_PLA_ONLY-_-ToolsAndHardware-_-RotaryAndOscillatingTools-_-1245703:Dremel&CAWELAID=&kpid=1245703&CAGPSPN=pla&k_clickID=fe56e01e-5115-4efa-8952-ec122d83ce28&gclid=Cj0KCQjwz93cBRCrARIsAEFbWsg1CUeZRhykhfpC5l_mMJi3LM3yqJFG9ro53o0jK8TXEYLAgFFBbNUaAhtMEALw_wcB
10:23 PM infornography: You know what would be good for cutting fiberglass
10:24 PM * flyback punches SpeedEvil
10:24 PM flyback: ziper, we know
10:24 PM _unreal_: infornography, lets hear it
10:24 PM ziper: a plasma torch
10:24 PM infornography: yes
10:24 PM flyback: man ballscrews may be slow
10:24 PM flyback: btu they seem to be cheap and damn well reliable as all
10:25 PM _unreal_: ziper, there are different ways to make molds
10:25 PM ziper: I definitely don't want to try making a plug out of a complicated foil section
10:26 PM _unreal_: ziper, I would suggest using the mill to do a FINE pitch finish form. and then use FRP bagging plastic. and SUCK it down over the form. use light heat to let it streach. that way you can a nice finish part.
10:26 PM _unreal_: to lay up on while its under vacuum. and you can make you part off of the splash form you made.
10:26 PM _unreal_: I do that all the time
10:27 PM ziper: cant I get a plastic to succ down that I can epoxy to the mold
10:27 PM _unreal_: OR I form the part in foams like h80 FRP foam. and wrap them in blue masking tape
10:27 PM flyback: does impregnating the plastic mold with paffin or something
10:27 PM ziper: I dont want to have to run two vacuum pumps
10:27 PM flyback: give it resistance to sticking to the fiberglass
10:27 PM _unreal_: ziper, ?
10:28 PM _unreal_: ahh there are different ways to do everything. What I said is make the splash. that means you make a FORM of the finished part. and make a mold of it. so you can build parts
10:29 PM flyback: Tom_L, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSJtz40e2is
10:29 PM flyback: sag my ass
10:29 PM ziper: _unreal_, assuming the same resin, how does a post cure compare with curing at hi temp
10:30 PM flyback: is one a fast cure?
10:30 PM flyback: sometimes fast cures trade strength for speed
10:30 PM flyback: dunno what is the case with fiberglass
10:30 PM ziper: the epoxy system I use is +-5% for the fast medium or slow
10:36 PM _unreal_: ziper, post cure happens over time OR in a more rapid environment
10:36 PM _unreal_: depends on the resin
10:36 PM _unreal_: What resin are you using?
10:36 PM _unreal_: we use PROSET mainly
10:36 PM _unreal_: proset and gflex
10:36 PM _unreal_: and plexus
10:37 PM _unreal_: ziper, a post cure can be as simple as leaving the item in the sun for four to eight hours, letting it get to 140f
10:37 PM _unreal_: depends on the size
10:38 PM ziper: its from US composites
10:38 PM _unreal_: wopty do.... what is the brand name?
10:38 PM ziper: idk lol
10:38 PM _unreal_: then i can help
10:38 PM _unreal_: l o and l
10:38 PM _unreal_: cnat
10:38 PM _unreal_: cant
10:39 PM _unreal_: I cant even cant
10:39 PM ziper: _unreal_, http://puu.sh/BtAQT/dbee90d853.pdf
10:42 PM _unreal_: 24 Hours at 77F + 2 Hours at 250F They want a 2 hour post cure
10:42 PM _unreal_: That is JUST an oven temp no special anything
10:43 PM _unreal_: The idea behind the post sure is you form the part leave it in the mold AND remove it from the mold after post cure to reduce warping
10:44 PM _unreal_: ziper, use the medium hardener. it has the best working results
10:44 PM _unreal_: That stuff seems cheap though. the mixing ratios change for the different hardeners
10:44 PM _unreal_: ODD
10:44 PM ziper: usually I do, I only use the slow if I am mixing in a thickener becuase then it kicks in 1 or 2 minutes
10:45 PM ziper: doesnt bother me. do the specs look decent?
10:45 PM _unreal_: Or at least thats how I read it
10:45 PM _unreal_: med.... thermals on you in 2min with a thickener?
10:45 PM _unreal_: ouch
10:46 PM _unreal_: ziper, do you mix your resin FIRST then add thick. or mix it all at once?
10:46 PM ziper: mix first
10:46 PM _unreal_: GOOD!!!!
10:47 PM ziper: is it worth gettings the most vacuum possible to lower my resin ratio that last couple percent?
10:48 PM _unreal_: you can ONLY pull vacuum to your altitude......
10:48 PM _unreal_: if your at sea level like I am, because I'm in south florida. I get a full 30" of mercury... or about 14.7 LBS of air pressure per square inch....
10:49 PM _unreal_: if you are not in a low lying area, then you need to put the part is a special hyper baric chaimber
10:49 PM _unreal_: to put high pressure on the outside of the molded part.
10:50 PM _unreal_: all in all.. worth it yes. but.... depends on a few factors
10:51 PM ziper: _unreal_, im in south florida...
10:53 PM _unreal_: ?
10:53 PM _unreal_: where
10:54 PM _unreal_: boca
10:55 PM ziper: pm
10:59 PM _unreal_: ziper, a place for you to check out is fiberglass coatings
10:59 PM ziper: yeah I get most of my stuff from FGCI
10:59 PM ziper: well, some of it
10:59 PM ziper: the stuff that can't be shipped
10:59 PM _unreal_: https://www.fgci.com/products
11:00 PM _unreal_: ok
11:01 PM _unreal_: ziper, something you can try.... is using CHOP strand glass. and cabisil together. makes really good puttys
11:02 PM ziper: I usually only use them for fairing or filleting
11:02 PM _unreal_: and its FAR more structural
11:03 PM _unreal_: Gflex is good on things that you cant let break but need to be able to bend
11:04 PM ziper: yeah I need something flexible for the foil hinge
11:04 PM ziper: unless I go hingeless
11:05 PM _unreal_: whenI say flexable. I dont mean you can just BEND it
11:05 PM _unreal_: you know when you try to bend a piece of metal. and you bend and bend and bend it back and forth and it just WONT brake
11:05 PM _unreal_: Thats how Gflex is
11:06 PM ziper: i'm thinking a single layer of kevlar
11:06 PM ziper: for the hinge
11:06 PM _unreal_: ?
11:06 PM _unreal_: What kind of a hinge
11:09 PM ziper: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FjFuQZDXcp8/TTviMmF_5fI/AAAAAAAAAVo/7KQfkxeG0aY/s1600/integrated%2Bhinge%2Bdiagram-1.jpg
11:09 PM ziper: http://www.fastacraft.com/images/foil_flap.gif
11:10 PM _unreal_: Thats suggesting sekaflex. I use a type of seka all the time
11:10 PM _unreal_: seka295
11:11 PM _unreal_: I would go with what they reccommend
11:11 PM ziper: i want the top hinge to completely flush, not recessed at all
11:11 PM _unreal_: Thats easy enough
11:11 PM ziper: but that first image is really old
11:11 PM ziper: and afaik not used on any modern boats
11:12 PM _unreal_: using kevlar as a hinge wont work well
11:12 PM _unreal_: its hard to bond to kevlar
11:12 PM ziper: what else?
11:13 PM _unreal_: I would suggest a thin layup panel using Gflex you could even bag it....
11:13 PM _unreal_: something like a few boat cloth Vac bagged
11:13 PM ziper: and what fiber?
11:14 PM _unreal_: When it sets up you have a thin section that you can Bond AND still do the sekiaflex fill
11:14 PM _unreal_: thing strong fiberglass for the LOAD, adn the sakiflex caulking for the rigid finish
11:15 PM ziper: on the bottom I will just have a little flap bonded to the leading section pointed back
11:15 PM ziper: that can flex and slide with the flap
11:15 PM _unreal_: to use seka flex to smooth something over, you just need to mask the area with tape. use a spreader that can bridge the area. pull it. and clean up with mineral spirits
11:15 PM _unreal_: slide?
11:53 PM _unreal_: ziper, you have some gramer issues on the main page of your sailboat site
11:53 PM _unreal_: grammar