#linuxcnc Logs

Aug 11 2018

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:45 AM veek: what's wt%/C : weight in terms of grams?
12:48 AM veek: 0.2wt%/C 100gm of alloy has 0.2gm C?
02:06 AM Deejay: moin
04:55 AM jthornton: morning
04:56 AM XXCoder: yo
04:59 AM jthornton: .weather
05:13 AM jthornton: dang varmints are bad this year caught two coons 2 nights ago and one last night trapped 12 tree rats in the last week
05:14 AM XXCoder: tree rats interesting
05:14 AM XXCoder: yeah hotter weather means longer breeding season
05:14 AM XXCoder: it sucks
05:17 AM jthornton: I don't trap them unless they come on my deck
05:19 AM jthornton: chickens get 18 minutes of extra light today
05:21 AM jthornton: I went down to the social security office yesterday to get an appointment to sign up for medicare
05:21 AM jthornton: next july I sign up for social security checks
05:29 AM jthornton: I see freenode upped the anti with the spammers
05:29 AM jthornton: Due to the persistent ongoing spam, all new connections are being set +R (block messages from unidentified users) and will be scanned for vulnerabilities.
05:31 AM XXCoder: dang
05:31 AM XXCoder: damn libel bots getting all uppity eh
05:31 AM jthornton: yea they were getting very bad
05:31 AM XXCoder: jeez.
05:32 AM XXCoder: I wonder why they are doing that
05:55 AM jthornton: no idea
06:44 AM jthornton: anyone know what I'm doing wrong with this https://paste.ubuntu.com/p/TG5kHs9J6X/
06:44 AM jthornton: GPG error: http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org stretch Release: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY EF1B07FEE0EE663E
06:44 AM jthornton: W: The repository 'http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org stretch Release' is not signed.
07:14 AM Tom_L: that's a new one
07:17 AM jthornton: I wonder if the recv-key changed???
07:23 AM Tom_L: https://github.com/LinuxCNC/stretch-live-build
07:23 AM Tom_L: not sure if any clues would be there or not
07:54 AM jthornton: some good info on building a live cd in there
07:56 AM jthornton: interesting the spam continues but gets knocked off pretty quick OwenBarfield has quit (Killed (Sigyn (Spam is off topic on freenode.)))
09:40 AM hazzy-lab: jthornton: this is a common problem (has been for quite some time). this might be helpful: https://github.com/KurtJacobson/RF45-CNC/wiki/Installing-LinuxCNC-on-Ubuntu#installing-linuxcnc
09:41 AM hazzy-lab: (be sure to look at the "Adding a Signing Key" at the very bottom of the page)
09:41 AM pfred1: hazzy-lab how's my Python guru doing today?
09:42 AM hazzy-lab: hey pfred1!
09:42 AM hazzy-lab: cranking along :)
09:43 AM pfred1: that's good
10:20 AM jthornton: hazzy-dev: the key added ok afaik
10:23 AM jthornton: yea just checked and the key was imported when I did apt-key
10:24 AM phipli: How well does linuxcnc run on old PCs, say like 15 years old?
10:24 AM jthornton: might have to use and older OS like ugbuntu 10
10:24 AM jthornton: just have to see if the live cd boots up
10:25 AM hazzy-lab: jthornton: excellent! the error is very similar if the key is not added properly
10:27 AM jthornton: same thing I got the other day and ended up with the vietnamese g code quick reference in the menu lol
10:29 AM hazzy-lab: phipli: RTAI runs very well on old hardware. I have T42 laptop from 2005 that runs LCNC better then any modern PC I have tried, about 5000ns latency. And it has a par port so it is a perfect for testing with
10:29 AM hazzy-lab: jthornton: did you see sebs comments on the vietnamese trans problem? I think you may have been clicking on the wrong menu entry ....
10:30 AM hazzy-lab: jthornton: http://highlab.com/~seb/linuxcnc/g-code-quick-ref.png
10:30 AM phipli: hazzy-lab, yeah - I have an old pc previous housemate left with me
10:30 AM phipli: with a parallel port etc...
10:31 AM phipli: figuring it would make a good CNC box
10:31 AM jthornton: now I wonder why it shows up as a menu item at all
10:34 AM hazzy-lab: jthornton: you can remove it easily enough if it is confusing, but it would be hard for somebody who really needs the vietnamese trans to add it. I assume that is the reasoning ...
10:34 AM pfred1: I hate having loads of translations on my PC
10:35 AM jthornton: right it should not be there unless you select the vietnamese language
10:35 AM pfred1: Linux being international loads so many
10:35 AM pfred1: it isn't worth the hassle of ditching the junk either
10:36 AM pfred1: doing the code page jazz in the kernel is one of the worst parts about configuring it
10:37 AM pfred1: well it used to be a real nightmare in just make config
10:37 AM pfred1: because if you missed picking the page you needed you had to start all over
10:38 AM hazzy-lab: jthornton: not sure if linuxcnc can easily change the menus per language though. I guess there could be a separate set of menus that get installed depending on the system language. That would be nice!
10:38 AM pfred1: internationalization
10:38 AM jthornton: I think the french shows up if you select that language
10:38 AM pfred1: I think the OS just does it?
10:39 AM pfred1: like it is a built in feature
10:39 AM jthornton: hmm the buildbnot key is different than the one in the manual
10:39 AM pfred1: I'm American so I don't know about foreign languages
10:40 AM pfred1: they all look foreign to me
10:42 AM jthornton: hazzy-dev: I've tried before to remove a menu item in debian and they forbid it lol
10:42 AM hazzy-lab: forbid? they are just text files ...
10:43 AM hazzy-lab: I gave instructions on how to customize them here yesterday, it is very easy
10:43 AM hazzy-lab: sek
10:43 AM jthornton: well I've never found a menu editor that worked in debian
10:44 AM hazzy-lab: all you need is a text editor, nano will work
10:45 AM fragalot: guys, if you could choose between a Deckel FP1 or FP2, or a Schaublin 13, and you're VERY constrained for space.. Which would it be?
10:49 AM jthornton: hazzy-dev: I just deleted the file
10:49 AM hazzy-lab: perfect!
10:49 AM jthornton: kind of a pia to have to that and create a file just to stop the are sure you want to quit...
10:53 AM hazzy-lab: if you want to add a new menu item all you have to do is duplicate one of the other ones and edit it to do what you want. I did that to add QtDesigner to the Development menu :)
10:54 AM jthornton: the average joe won't have a clue why he had a vietnamese menu or what to do
10:54 AM jthornton: his thought will be something is wrong...
10:55 AM hazzy-lab: I agree, it would be best if it only appeared when the local was set to vietnamese
10:56 AM pfred1: if vietnamese shows up on my screen something is definitely wong
10:56 AM jthornton: well I'm beaten to submission by debian for today time for a nap
10:57 AM pfred1: I have to reinstall here, again
10:57 AM pfred1: but i keep putting it off
10:57 AM pfred1: I thought I was going to be able ot somehow copy my system onto my new drive but that's not as easy as it sounds to do
10:58 AM pfred1: it is theoretically possible but not entirely ideal
10:59 AM pfred1: supposedly on install the system will optimize for the different drive or so I've been lead to believe
11:00 AM hazzy-lab: pfred1: did you use dd? I have one master LCNC HDD set up how I like it that I then clone to new HDD as I set up machines. Never had a problem doing that at all
11:00 AM pfred1: I am going from a mech drive to a SSD
11:00 AM pfred1: f it was mech to mech it'd be less complicated
11:00 AM pfred1: ssd needs trim
11:01 AM hazzy-lab: I have done that too. Are the sizes vastly different?
11:01 AM pfred1: well i could get it to fit
11:01 AM hazzy-lab: trim should already be there, even if you installed on a HDD
11:01 AM pfred1: I don't plan on copying everything over
11:02 AM pfred1: what sucks is i just had to reinstall because i was using a backport that made upgrading my video card impossible
11:02 AM pfred1: I got thrown into dependency hell because of that
11:02 AM hazzy-lab: ah, that is no fun :(
11:02 AM pfred1: no it wasn't
11:03 AM pfred1: so now I got everything going OK again and everyone shamed me into getting a SSD and here i go reinstalling again
11:04 AM pfred1: I swear the HDD i use is pretty fast as it is
11:04 AM pfred1: in sequential reads the SSD is only twice as fast
11:04 AM pfred1: but i hear it is a big difference in random reads
11:04 AM pfred1: I'll see
11:05 AM pfred1: Seagate baracuda drives are damned fast for spinning rust
11:05 AM hazzy-lab: on win I find the SSD makes a big difference, but I have not noticed much improvement on linux
11:05 AM pfred1: Linux caches a lot in RAM
11:06 AM pfred1: like the first time I open a browser on boot it takes a moment after that it just pops up
11:06 AM hazzy-lab: are Seagate baracudas good? Lol, that is what I am running too, but I got them out of a junk bin xD
11:06 AM pfred1: well the particular model I'm using was wel lreviewed
11:07 AM hazzy-lab: mine are old ...
11:07 AM pfred1: Model=ST1000DM010-2EP102
11:07 AM pfred1: that particular drive is blasing fast
11:08 AM pfred1: Timing cached reads: 28168 MB in 1.99 seconds = 14126.82 MB/sec Timing buffered disk reads: 630 MB in 3.01 seconds = 209.41 MB/sec
11:08 AM hazzy-lab: that is good!
11:08 AM pfred1: this is the SSD
11:08 AM pfred1: Timing cached reads: 26694 MB in 1.99 seconds = 13385.64 MB/sec Timing buffered disk reads: 1534 MB in 3.00 seconds = 510.75 MB/sec
11:09 AM pfred1: so my Seagate is faster cache
11:09 AM hazzy-lab: nice!
11:09 AM pfred1: pretty sick rust beats out sand
11:10 AM pfred1: I got a WD NAND drive it's not the fastest SSD going
11:10 AM hazzy-lab: yeah, that is a bit surprising
11:10 AM pfred1: though in some ways it'll beat an EVO
11:11 AM pfred1: it was sure a nicer price
11:11 AM hazzy-lab: those barracuda's are also a fraction of the cost of an SSD, pretty attractive
11:12 AM pfred1: yeah 1TB was like $50
11:12 AM pfred1: 500GB SSD almost $100
11:13 AM hazzy-lab: lol, the 500gb is more than the Itb: http://a.co/0pkTUO8
11:13 AM hazzy-lab: yes!
11:13 AM pfred1: yeah that's like my HDD
11:13 AM pfred1: they're good drives
11:14 AM * hazzy-lab thinks about getting one
11:14 AM pfred1: I'm really hoping in use i see some speed out of this SSD
11:14 AM pfred1: in actually reading the disk the SSD is faster
11:15 AM hazzy-lab: right
11:15 AM pfred1: about 2.5X faster
11:15 AM pfred1: it still cost 4X as much per unit of storage though
11:15 AM gregcnc: reminds me I need to set up a new NAS
11:16 AM pfred1: I need a new switch still
11:16 AM pfred1: I am using a switch I bought in like 1994
11:16 AM pfred1: I guess I should be happy it still even works but it is slow
11:17 AM pfred1: gigabit switches are not cheap though
11:18 AM pfred1: I still really do need one
11:18 AM pfred1: I think my ancient switch is 10mb/s?
11:18 AM pfred1: I don't think it can even do 100mb/s
11:19 AM hazzy-lab: haha
11:19 AM hazzy-lab: that is pretty slow
11:19 AM pfred1: real funny when I am trying to move data let me tell you
11:21 AM pfred1: I have to redo my whole LAN here
11:21 AM pfred1: when I first set it up my one PC couldn't directly communicate with my ISP's router dingle donger
11:22 AM pfred1: but through that ancient switch it worked
11:22 AM pfred1: so that's what I did
11:22 AM pfred1: but since then they've given me a new different router so I'm thinking it I might be able ot hook up to directly
11:22 AM pfred1: I've never tried
11:23 AM pfred1: but in order to do that I'm going to have to crawl under the house and reroute cables
11:24 AM pfred1: I kind of need switches in two places anyways
11:24 AM pfred1: it's a mess
11:24 AM pfred1: bbiab
11:48 AM jthornton: me "./somefile"
11:49 AM jthornton: debian 9 "bash file not found"
11:49 AM jthornton: me "ls says it is there and it green look for yourself"
11:49 AM jthornton: debian 9 "bash I said the file is not found I don't care what ls says!"
11:50 AM Rab: What are the permissions?
11:50 AM jthornton: you mean executable? yes
11:50 AM Rab: Also, is somefile a bash script which calls another file that's not found?
11:51 AM jthornton: no it's mesaflash odd I copied it from the desktop to my home dir and the permission changed
11:52 AM Rab: Try bash ./somefile
11:53 AM jthornton: cannot execute a binary file...
11:53 AM jthornton: lol works fine in linux mint
12:05 PM pfred1: file somefile
12:05 PM pfred1: see what file says about it
12:06 PM pfred1: it may be a script that is not loading the program that runs it
12:06 PM pfred1: head somefile
12:28 PM jthornton: just dumps a bunch of funny stuff
12:29 PM pfred1: then it is a binary
12:29 PM pfred1: there's ways of looking onto those too though
12:30 PM pfred1: you can strace it
12:30 PM pfred1: strace somefile
12:31 PM pfred1: it may tell you what's bombing out then
12:31 PM pfred1: strace is very spammy
12:51 PM jthornton: well it's a debian 9 issue because I copied the file from debian to my usb drive then to this linux mint pc and it runs fine
12:51 PM pfred1: yeah but you can probably find out what it is
12:52 PM pfred1: Linux has tools for examining what is going on
12:52 PM pfred1: you can really go down the rabbit hole in Linux
12:52 PM pfred1: right down to digging out hooks in binaries
12:53 PM jthornton: why do you think it is a problem with the file?
12:53 PM pfred1: it isn't
12:54 PM pfred1: but the file is the gateway to what the problem is it is the entry point
12:54 PM pfred1: that will lead you to what the issue actually is
12:55 PM pfred1: other than manifesting the problem I don't know how to find problems
12:57 PM pfred1: although it is interesting to think of another method
12:58 PM pfred1: I still feel like following a trail is the best way to get someplace
12:58 PM jthornton: well I sloved it...
12:58 PM jthornton: solved even
12:59 PM jthornton: I built the file here (32bit) and copied it there (64bit)...
12:59 PM pfred1: ah
12:59 PM pfred1: so you don't have the compatibility layer?
12:59 PM * jthornton smacks his forehead with a hammer
12:59 PM pfred1: yeah strace would have revealed that
01:00 PM * jthornton goes back to shoveling dirt
01:00 PM pfred1: there would have been a whole bunch of files not found
01:00 PM pfred1: it would have said what file too
01:01 PM pfred1: compat files are in another place
01:01 PM pfred1: I think they may even have different base names?
01:01 PM pfred1: ldd shows missing libs too
01:02 PM jthornton: if it is compiled code should not have an dependencies?
01:02 PM pfred1: run ldd on the full path to the file wit hthe filename
01:03 PM pfred1: ldd /home/myhomedir/myfile
01:03 PM pfred1: it'll bomb on all the libs it can't find
01:05 PM pfred1: 32 bit libs are different from 64 bit libs
01:07 PM pfred1: https://wiki.debian.org/Multiarch/HOWTO
01:08 PM pfred1: 64 bit is confusingly called AMD64 and 32 bit is i386
01:10 PM pfred1: 32 bit and 64 bit binaries are linked to different libraries
01:11 PM pfred1: they're really whole different systems
01:11 PM hazzy-lab: jthornton: compiled code absolutely can requires dependencies, that is the whole point of dynamic linking, so you don't have to include everything with each binary
01:12 PM pfred1: you can statically link binaries
01:12 PM pfred1: but they're memory hogs
01:13 PM pfred1: shared objects is the much more common way
01:13 PM jthornton: if I want to use mesaflash with my tool do need to include both a 32bit version and a 64bit? https://github.com/micges/mesaflash
01:13 PM pfred1: you just need a version you have the libraries for
01:14 PM pfred1: or you can build a static version that just runs
01:14 PM pfred1: a static version would just run on the hardware I think?
01:15 PM pfred1: well it would need file services from the kernel I suppose
01:15 PM pfred1: I haven't messed with static code in a long time now
01:16 PM pfred1: there was a time when I felt the need because of something that I was doing
01:17 PM pfred1: but that was a very special use case
01:18 PM pfred1: I will say this if you ever really want to bork your system up then mess with your libc
01:18 PM jthornton: mesaflash is not my program I'm just trying to use it to discover what card is plugged in and what has been flashed
01:18 PM jthornton: 99% of what you said went way over my head :(
01:18 PM pfred1: you have the source for it though?
01:18 PM pfred1: you can even cross compile on systems for other platforms
01:19 PM pfred1: like you can build 32 bit on 64 bit
01:20 PM pfred1: they ran 64 bit on Linux first by playing stupid games with crosscompiling before the hardware was even available
01:20 PM jthornton: https://github.com/micges/mesaflash
01:21 PM pfred1: so you have the source
01:21 PM pfred1: now what arch is the target you want to run on?
01:22 PM pfred1: your best bet is to just build on the target system then yo ucan't go wrong
01:23 PM pfred1: it will Just Work (TM)
01:23 PM jthornton: there in lies the problem I don't know what system everyone has...
01:23 PM * jthornton wanders to menards
01:23 PM pfred1: then you'd have to ship both
01:23 PM jthornton: be back in a bit
01:24 PM pfred1: you should target a low CPU too like a 586
01:24 PM jthornton: mesaflash32 and mesaflash64 and pick the right one in python after checking the os
01:24 PM jthornton: I have no idea how to do that
01:24 PM pfred1: I don't think anyone is running less than a 586 these days
01:24 PM pfred1: it is a switch on the build line
01:25 PM pfred1: -march I think?
01:25 PM pfred1: type gcc -v
01:25 PM pfred1: that should spit out all of your default variables
01:26 PM pfred1: by default you build for the host but if you're distributing that's not best
01:27 PM pfred1: then you have to set your sights lower
01:46 PM roycroft: the bridgeport at the maker space has a 486
01:48 PM pfred1: a lot of distros don't support 486 anymore
01:49 PM pfred1: if you're still running a 486 you have to expect to be unsupported in this day and age
01:49 PM roycroft: i'm just saying that's what that machine has
01:49 PM roycroft: and there are probably quite a few of them out in the field still
01:49 PM pfred1: and I'm saying that is beyond a reasonable cut off
01:49 PM roycroft: that's not what you originally said
01:49 PM roycroft: <pfred1> I don't think anyone is running less than a 586 these days
01:50 PM roycroft: i was responding to that
01:50 PM pfred1: ah well I'm sure some folks are but they're left out
01:50 PM roycroft: i'm not arguing that a 486 should be/must be supported
01:50 PM pfred1: I htink they have their systems sorted by now
01:50 PM roycroft: i'm saying they're still around
01:51 PM pfred1: I remember people making a stink when 486 support was dropped
01:51 PM pfred1: that was years ago
01:51 PM roycroft: if i got an identical bridgeport i'd probably want to convert it from the boss software to linuxcnc
01:51 PM roycroft: but i'd also replace the computer in the process of doing so
01:51 PM pfred1: yeah that'd be wise
01:51 PM pfred1: you can get something better for about $25
01:52 PM pfred1: aliexpress is loaded with old ATOM SBCs today
01:52 PM roycroft: it also has a standard resolution vga display
01:52 PM roycroft: which i'd upgrade to a higher resolution touch screen
01:52 PM pfred1: they're dirt cheap
01:52 PM roycroft: yes
01:53 PM roycroft: i have a few
01:53 PM pfred1: and they're way better than a 486 in every respect
01:53 PM roycroft: i pick up kiosk touch screens when i find them cheap
01:53 PM roycroft: the kind with mounting flanges, so i can easily fit them to a custom enclosure
01:53 PM pfred1: well worth the price of admission
01:54 PM pfred1: I hate to spend other people's money but at the same time we have to be realistic
01:56 PM pfred1: I'm tempted to pick up one of those POS Atoms
01:57 PM pfred1: just to clean up my install
01:57 PM pfred1: I'm using a thrift store specia lto run my machine that I got for $6 it is still a dual core CPU though
01:58 PM pfred1: so no 486
01:59 PM pfred1: it's a core
01:59 PM MrHindsight: what kinds of PC's are ending up at Goodwill these days?
02:00 PM pfred1: these days nothing
02:00 PM MrHindsight: my old PC's are 2-6 core 64b AMD from ~2010
02:00 PM pfred1: people got rid ofthem years ago
02:00 PM pfred1: but a few years ago PCs were common in thrift stores
02:01 PM MrHindsight: I come across old gaming consoles from time to time from the 90's
02:01 PM pfred1: I don't see used systems like I used to
02:01 PM MrHindsight: pfred1: I'd imagine they were are they got replaced by tablets and smartphones
02:01 PM pfred1: that's it
02:01 PM MrHindsight: are/as
02:02 PM pfred1: the whole desktop market has changed
02:02 PM pfred1: now the only people that still have desktops are enthusiasts and they're not likely to get rid of their gear
02:03 PM pfred1: well they don't just dispose of it
02:04 PM pfred1: the last used system I looked at was at an estate sale and man it was hashed
02:04 PM MrHindsight: Goodwill is great for finding suede coats for welding for $3
02:05 PM pfred1: the guy let me plug it in and it wouldn't even boot up it was a mess but from what i saw it wasn't worth fooling around with
02:05 PM pfred1: he said he pulled it out of his business he was moving or something and that it worked when he last used it
02:06 PM pfred1: but it wasn't working anymore
02:06 PM pfred1: it was junk!
02:06 PM pfred1: I built the system I'm using right now out of "scrattered" parts from China
02:07 PM pfred1: I don't know where they get all the junk they sell but they seem to have it
02:22 PM pcw_home: test
02:22 PM jthornton: pfred1: my 308 is still running a 386
02:23 PM pfred1: jthornton I think you can still target 386 arch with gcc
02:24 PM pfred1: that's really dipping low though
02:24 PM pfred1: AFAIK all Linux distros target 586 or greater today
02:25 PM jthornton: it's running dos 6.22
02:26 PM jthornton: great mystery solved so off to put a filter in the water line for the raised beds water system
02:26 PM pfred1: it'll have a hard time running an ELF file then
02:26 PM pfred1: I wonder if gcc can cross compile for MS-DOS?
02:28 PM pfred1: I think that's what DJGPP does?
02:28 PM djdelorie: yup
02:28 PM pfred1: :)
02:28 PM djdelorie: there's an RPM for fedora systems which provides it as a cross-compiler, or you can run it natively on dos
02:29 PM djdelorie: IIRC the Borland compilers are free-to-use these days, too.
02:29 PM pfred1: how you been?
02:29 PM pfred1: someone that knows their way around a compiler
02:29 PM djdelorie: busy... http://www.delorie.com/photos/motorcycle/img_3761.html
02:30 PM pfred1: electric?
02:30 PM pfred1: that aluminum?
02:31 PM djdelorie: all you guys with wimpy bldc systems in your cnc machines... MY bldc can push 30,000 watts :-)
02:31 PM djdelorie: aluminum battery cage, original steel frame, 3d-printed PETG mounting parts for all the bits
02:31 PM djdelorie: I just got the front turn signals mounted today, on custom mounts
02:31 PM pfred1: I never had much luck TIG welding aluminum well I got it to work once
02:32 PM pfred1: then I think the frequency board in my welder messed up?
02:32 PM djdelorie: I had a friend to it for me. Custom design, stress modeling, and fabrication.
02:32 PM pfred1: well there's this brazing rod for AL that's pretty good it's kind of a solder
02:32 PM djdelorie: I want to learn to TIG but can't justify buying the equipment for the rare time I'd need it
02:33 PM pfred1: TIG is cool
02:33 PM sync: it's not really expensive tho
02:33 PM pfred1: the inverter machines are pretty cheap today too
02:33 PM djdelorie: "for the rare time I'd need it" and for aluminum you need an AC inverter
02:33 PM djdelorie: and I already have a MIG setup
02:33 PM djdelorie: and a friend who knows how to weld aluminum ;-)
02:33 PM pfred1: I have MIG and TIG
02:33 PM pfred1: TIG is still cool
02:34 PM pfred1: all I do today is stick weld thoug hwhen I moved i never hooked up with a new gas house
02:34 PM JT-Shop: I like to TIG stainless steel
02:34 PM sync: yeah, the AC ones are also pretty cheap now
02:34 PM sync: and work ok
02:34 PM sync: I keep it around just for the occasional need
02:34 PM sync: I think I tigged once this year
02:35 PM pfred1: but when I had gas I TIGed a lot
02:35 PM pfred1: it's great for thin stuff
02:36 PM djdelorie: my mig can stitch-weld down to 22ga but that doesn't mean *I* know how to do that ;-)
02:36 PM pfred1: I've welded 4-40 washers onto brake line with oxy acetylene though
02:36 PM djdelorie: not brazed?
02:36 PM pfred1: I wouldn't want to try that with any electric arc process
02:37 PM pfred1: nope welded
02:37 PM pfred1: brazing can be a bit of a pain at times
02:38 PM pfred1: though I've brazed bandsaw blades successfully
02:38 PM sync: I really like brazing aluminium
02:38 PM pfred1: muggy weld?
02:39 PM pfred1: oxy acetylene is my first welding love
02:39 PM sync: no, with a regular Al filler
02:39 PM sync: not with zinc based alloys
02:39 PM pfred1: lot of heat distortion though
02:41 PM pfred1: TIG is a lot like gas welding just more concentrated
02:41 PM sync: haha djdelorie I have the same ninja rotting in one of my garages
02:41 PM djdelorie: I have two :-)
02:42 PM pfred1: 10K bikes
02:42 PM djdelorie: the other one is still gas, it was an old racing bike. The electric was built from that bike's parts bike
02:42 PM pfred1: they're good for about 10K miles then they're done
02:42 PM djdelorie: the gas bike has 50k miles on it, the electric had 16k
02:42 PM pfred1: wholly 50K!
02:42 PM djdelorie: yup
02:43 PM pfred1: you rebuild the engine regularly?
02:43 PM sync: mine has over 750000km
02:43 PM sync: eh -0
02:43 PM djdelorie: I got it that way.
02:43 PM sync: still runs ok
02:43 PM sync: it is slow and heavy tho
02:43 PM djdelorie: but I rebuilt the carb and clutch when I got it
02:44 PM pfred1: that's incidental that's not mechanical engine wear
02:44 PM sync: idk, I have a xbr as well which is a 500cc single and it has over 80000km on it
02:44 PM djdelorie: no, that was because (1) it was sitting in a shed for four years, and (2) the clutch was *why* it was sitting ;-)
02:44 PM sync: still runs fine
02:44 PM pfred1: what's your secret synehetic oil?
02:45 PM sync: I always wonder how well the hub motors would perform
02:45 PM sync: lots of unsprung mass
02:45 PM djdelorie: sync: so far, similar to the gas bike
02:46 PM sync: I once rode a mx bike conversion with a hub motor and it sucked big time
02:46 PM djdelorie: I don't plan on being agressive with it, but the hub motor let me put a big pack in. The math says 70 mile range at highway speeds.
02:46 PM pfred1: yo uweren't popping any wheelies huh?
02:46 PM djdelorie: and fewer moving parts to engineer :-)
02:47 PM djdelorie: nah. It has low-end torque, but not THAT much.
02:47 PM pfred1: we need better batteries
02:47 PM sync: that is suprising
02:47 PM sync: I would expect it to wheel pretty well
02:47 PM sync: especially as you can overload those motors really well
02:47 PM djdelorie: I haven't tweaked the controller to use more than the battery's "continuous amps" rating, and the battery moves the CG further forward
02:47 PM djdelorie: and I'm too scared to try a wheelie :-)
02:48 PM sync: just have your foot on the rear brake
02:48 PM djdelorie: always
02:48 PM sync: no, always is bad
02:48 PM sync: just when you wheel
02:49 PM djdelorie: and if I roll completely off the throttle, the regen breaking kicks in too
02:49 PM djdelorie: I mean, it's always ready to step on it, not always actually stepping on it
02:49 PM sync: that is one of the benefits of an electric bike, you can fully turn off negative torque
02:49 PM pfred1: djdelorie so you use 18650 cells right?
02:49 PM djdelorie: I had it that way at first. I'm experimenting with it to see where I like it
02:49 PM XXCoder: woke up dead
02:49 PM XXCoder: in least felt like it lol
02:49 PM djdelorie: no, prismatic
02:50 PM sync: yeah calb prismatic
02:50 PM djdelorie: 36 of these: http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/cam72fi.html
02:50 PM sync: I thought about getting one of those remy hvh catridges and cram it into some poor old mx bike
02:50 PM djdelorie: not as weight efficient, but no spot welding required
02:50 PM pfred1: hmm hmm something different
02:51 PM pfred1: everyone seems to use billions of those 18650s
02:52 PM pfred1: isn't that what Tesla cars use?
02:52 PM djdelorie: the 18650's use a chemistry that's one of the most space/weight efficient
02:52 PM pfred1: plus you can always vape
02:53 PM sync: I also rode the electric KTM, unfortunately it sucks as well :/
02:53 PM pfred1: there are so many counterfeit 18650s out there now
02:55 PM flyback: djdelorie, but their longevity sucks ass
02:55 PM flyback: lithium-iron-phosphate is betteer
02:55 PM flyback: but not as dense
02:55 PM pfred1: it amazes me how poor battery tech is today
02:55 PM flyback: so ion is probably beter for cars if you can manage the safety
02:56 PM flyback: but not ok for planes like that one BONEing used
02:56 PM flyback: dumbfucks
02:56 PM flyback: ion in a car you can pull over and get out
02:56 PM flyback: if you have a lithium fire in a plane, you are kinda fucked
02:56 PM pfred1: you can get out of planes too
02:56 PM roycroft: battery science is hard
02:56 PM pfred1: just have a parachute
02:56 PM roycroft: battery engineering harder
02:56 PM flyback: pfred1, not in a passenger one
02:57 PM djdelorie: flyback: are you saying I chose wisely, or poorly? ;-)
02:57 PM flyback: no I am just saying be aware of trade offs between things
02:57 PM pfred1: I've been looking at all the homebrew tab spot welders
02:57 PM flyback: for instance while iron phophate lithium is less dense and lower starting voltage
02:57 PM * roycroft just mowed over an underground wasp nest and is currently in a fair amount of pain
02:57 PM flyback: after 6 months
02:57 PM flyback: ion sheds 20% runtime
02:57 PM pfred1: spot welding tabs onto 18650s seems to be a hobby unto itself
02:58 PM flyback: iron phosphate mabye 0.000000000000000020%
02:58 PM djdelorie: my cells claim 2000 cycles, that's at least another 150k miles...
02:58 PM flyback: nice
02:58 PM flyback: good cells then
02:58 PM djdelorie: well, good *claims* at least
02:58 PM flyback: i would still use iron phosphate cells for some longenity projects
02:58 PM flyback: like a car lowjack etc
02:59 PM pfred1: djdelorie how long does it take you to charge your bike up?
03:00 PM pfred1: and can you use the recharging stations?
03:00 PM djdelorie: 5 hours at 120vac
03:00 PM djdelorie: I could if I buy the right jack, but that adds $400 to the price tag
03:00 PM djdelorie: and at 240vac it's still 2.5 hours sitting there charging
03:00 PM pfred1: yeah but it's range and power
03:00 PM pfred1: they got loads of those stations here now and no one uses them
03:01 PM djdelorie: that's what cars are for :-)
03:01 PM flyback: you should make a small chawsaw engine powered generator
03:01 PM pfred1: I'm waiting for homeless people to start using the electrcity
03:01 PM flyback: for emergency charging, getting home
03:01 PM flyback: actually hmm
03:01 PM pfred1: yeah I'd be forever worried about running out of power
03:02 PM djdelorie: got to go... back tomorrow :-)
03:02 PM flyback: that might be a good application for disposable aluminum air batteries
03:02 PM flyback: as a backup power source for a e-bike
03:02 PM flyback: since they have the highest energy density
03:02 PM pfred1: run into a drug store gimmie all the batteries you got!
03:03 PM pfred1: when the automobile was first introduced that's how they got fuel at drug stores
03:03 PM flyback: yeah I know
03:03 PM pfred1: there were no gas stations
03:04 PM pfred1: so we're going back there again
03:05 PM pfred1: I'd think with the need we'd come up with some decent battery tech
03:05 PM flyback: or replace batteries with supercaps eventually
03:05 PM pfred1: portable electricity is everywhere today
03:06 PM pfred1: literally in everyone's pockets
03:06 PM jthornton: pfred1: thanks for trying to figure out how I screwed up
03:06 PM pfred1: jthornton sure no problem
03:06 PM pfred1: I know how Linux can be
03:07 PM XXCoder: olinux allows us to shoot foot
03:07 PM pfred1: computers were just made to frustrate folks
03:07 PM jthornton: I agree
03:08 PM pfred1: computers are the ultimate literal idiot savant
03:08 PM XXCoder: yep!
03:08 PM pfred1: if yo udon't tell it exactly right it doesn't work
03:08 PM XXCoder: or work in wrong way. thats worse
03:09 PM XXCoder: power flicker
03:09 PM pfred1: Linux has a few ways of teasing clues out of it though
03:09 PM XXCoder: looks like electrics system dont like water
03:09 PM XXCoder: first rain after months
03:09 PM pfred1: yeah I've had rain issues with electric here this year
03:10 PM pfred1: I had a GFCI circuit trip off on me
03:10 PM pfred1: so I thought it was the wire i ran out to the pool pump
03:10 PM pfred1: I go taking that all apart and testing it out and I can't find anything
03:11 PM pfred1: turns out it was some wire I don't know where it goes or what it does
03:11 PM pfred1: I think it is for this one security light o nthe side of hte house that i never knew how to turn on
03:11 PM pfred1: so I just disconnected it and left it that way
03:16 PM XXCoder: lol
03:16 PM XXCoder: what if its sumppump for that side of house
03:17 PM pfred1: for a pool
03:20 PM XXCoder: fun
03:20 PM XXCoder: you'll have to hunt it down evenually
03:20 PM pfred1: not this year i never opned it
03:20 PM pfred1: nah the power is disconnected
03:21 PM pfred1: so far I'm not missing anything
03:21 PM pfred1: if the day comes where I feel a loss then I'll deal with it
03:21 PM pfred1: whoever did the electric on this house they weren't the best
03:22 PM XXCoder: yeah? that sucks
03:22 PM pfred1: they didn't use outside boxes for all outside things
03:22 PM XXCoder: its same here, wiring is pretty shoddy
03:22 PM XXCoder: and they used 10 amp wires for 1000w microwave.
03:22 PM pfred1: I replaced one on a spotlight it was one of those plastic stud boxes they had hanging under an eave
03:22 PM pfred1: and it was a pain
03:22 PM XXCoder: we had to move it to 15amp one so theres wire coming out of cabinet to side of counter plug
03:22 PM pfred1: digging that box out and putting a real outdoor box in there
03:23 PM pfred1: oh I had this total nightmare in the kitchen when I relocated a ceiling fixture
03:23 PM pfred1: I figured it'll be easy all I have to do is move a box
03:23 PM pfred1: yeah half the electric in the whole kitchen went through that one box
03:24 PM pfred1: I managed to do it but it took hours longer than I thought it would
03:26 PM pfred1: sometimes how i imagine a job is going to be and how it ends up being are two different things
03:26 PM pfred1: leap before you look
03:26 PM XXCoder: yeesh
03:27 PM XXCoder: we added 2 plugs when we had chance when we redid downstairs
03:27 PM pfred1: plugs reminds me i bought another power strip at a yard sale today I forgot to get it out of the car too
03:28 PM pfred1: brb
03:29 PM pfred1: I love me some power strips
03:30 PM pfred1: I use them like they're water
03:31 PM XXCoder: lol as long as you dont make a "river" with em
03:31 PM XXCoder: connecting strips to strips isnt good
03:32 PM pfred1: no usually not
03:33 PM pfred1: I tend to only use one thing on a strip at a time too but I don't like plugging stuff in to use it or they're just light loads
04:20 PM * Loetmichel just "floored" the convertible home from my sister (200km). Its close to midnight, the car is close to 20 years old, i had half a pack of cigarettes and a full tank and was wearing sunglasses while the canopy was open... 205kph is fun at 15°C temperature outside ;) WHAT a time to be alive!
04:25 PM DaViruz: Loetmichel: but was it dark?
04:25 PM DaViruz: :)
04:26 PM Loetmichel: indeed ;)
04:28 PM pfred1: Loetmichel has it been a bit hot lately?
04:31 PM Loetmichel: pfred1: lately, yes. Why?
04:32 PM pfred1: I watch one German bloke on YouTube and he's been melting lately
04:33 PM fragalot: Hi
04:34 PM XXCoder: finally cool here yay
04:34 PM fragalot: indeed, I have returned.
04:35 PM XXCoder: tues will be hottest of week at 87f, not too bad compared to last week
04:35 PM fragalot: I may have found a shaublin 13 in absolutely MINT condition
04:35 PM pfred1: yeah it's bene the hottest it's been here lately
04:36 PM XXCoder: and hopefully not mint price?
04:36 PM pfred1: pretty soon it'll be frezing again
04:36 PM fragalot: XXCoder: €7k4
04:36 PM fragalot: :/
04:36 PM pfred1: then I can just leave my PC in performance CPU mode all the time
04:37 PM {HD}: How do I correctly tension drive belts on a little XY plotter?
04:37 PM Loetmichel: pfred1: its the second "colder" night in the last 3 weeks or so ;)
04:38 PM XXCoder: {HD}: iirc you use "tone" when you pluck it to know if its correctly torsoned
04:38 PM XXCoder: being deaf I cant explain more sadly lol
04:39 PM {HD}: XXCoder: wow, guess I will look up what frequency it should pluck at.
04:39 PM XXCoder: from what i figure, good range is not so loose you have backlash, but not so tight it have problems moving
04:39 PM XXCoder: wish can help more
04:40 PM XXCoder: watch out for steaching it enough that belt tooth gaps "grows"
04:40 PM {HD}: Belts should just come with a spring that would automatically calibrate it.
04:40 PM fragalot: {HD}: that adds backlash
04:41 PM {HD}: Oh geeze!
04:42 PM Crom_: Wold around?
04:42 PM Crom_: Wolf around?
04:42 PM Wolf__: maybe
04:42 PM Loetmichel: fragalot: it doesent if the spring tension is outside the drive torque window ;)
04:42 PM Crom_: on smoothieware alpha_min_endstop 1.24! # I have a PNP inductive hooked to this. When active it shorts to ground. is this right?
04:42 PM pfred1: a wolf with a tail!
04:43 PM Wolf__: no, wrong wolf =P
04:43 PM fragalot: Loetmichel: Very true.
04:43 PM Crom_: k
04:44 PM Wolf__: but your PNP just treat it as a normally open type switch
04:46 PM fragalot: Crom_: PNP = active shorts to +24V, NPN = active shorts to GND
04:47 PM Wolf__: oh doh ^
04:48 PM Wolf__: been too long since I played with inductive…
04:48 PM fragalot: doesn't matter if it's inductive or something else :P
04:48 PM fragalot: NPN is always NPN
04:48 PM john_ is now known as Guest51872
04:48 PM Wolf__: yup
04:48 PM pfred1: inductive matters on flyback
04:49 PM fragalot: pfred1: not if it's just an inductive SENSOR
04:49 PM Wolf__: just a switch
04:49 PM pfred1: all I'm saying is switched inductors spike voltage
04:49 PM pfred1: that's what they do
04:50 PM pfred1: the whole electromotive force thing
04:50 PM fragalot: indeed.
04:50 PM fragalot: current wants to keep flowing and will blow anything up that gets in it's way
04:50 PM pfred1: when that field collpases it goes somewhere
04:51 PM pfred1: it backfeeds whatever is connected to it
04:53 PM pfred1: a long time ago before I understood it I used to blow up a lot of mosfets
04:53 PM pfred1: but i was using a pretty big coil at the time
04:54 PM pfred1: an ignition coil out of a car actually
04:55 PM pfred1: I wanted to see just how big a spark I could get out of a 9 Volt battery
04:55 PM Crom_: ugh, trying to get my home switches working on my Sieg X2 and smoothieboard
04:57 PM pfred1: Crom_ a lot of electronics is about managing the flow of current
04:57 PM pfred1: rather carefully
04:57 PM pfred1: because too much current lets the magic smoke out
04:58 PM pfred1: not burning up stuff is at least half the battle
05:00 PM pfred1: because up until something does burn up you're still in the game as far as trying goes
05:01 PM Wolf__: home/endstops are pretty simple http://smoothieware.org/endstops#powered-endstops-wiring
05:02 PM pfred1: their don't goes right to what I was talking about
05:03 PM pfred1: how come they don't have a schematic?
05:04 PM Wolf__: its up some on that page
05:05 PM pfred1: the top image on that page is not loading for me
05:06 PM Wolf__: same here, but its only Gnd, signal pin, +5V
05:06 PM pfred1: they don't t really have an inductive pickup with a transistor schematic that I see either
05:06 PM Wolf__: same as Lcnc you use whatever type switch you want long as the signal pin sees whats expected
05:07 PM Wolf__: be it self contained inductive switch, optical, halls whatever…
05:07 PM Wolf__: or just mechanical
05:08 PM pfred1: you can't treat a transistor just like it is a mechanical switch though can you?
05:09 PM pfred1: transistors are a bit more sensitive to current at their bases
05:09 PM Wolf__: I dont know EE stuff so no clue here
05:09 PM pfred1: I'm no EE grad myself
05:10 PM pfred1: though i have used transistors from time to time
05:10 PM pfred1: it is generally agreed that a small base to emitter current is used to pass a larger collector emitter current
05:12 PM pfred1: Crom_ what transistors do you have? like to they have a number?
05:12 PM XXCoder: dammit, washer coupler didnt arrive
05:12 PM pfred1: say 2N3906
05:12 PM Wolf__: its probably something like https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Sensors_-z-_Encoders/Inductive_Proximity_Sensors/18mm_Round_Industrial_Automation/Standard_Sensing_(18mm)/PBK-AP-1H
05:13 PM pfred1: that is a small signal PNP transistor if memory serves me
05:14 PM Wolf__: which IIRC I used all NPN on my cnc stuff
05:14 PM pfred1: PNP is actually a bit easier to do positive logic with I think?
05:15 PM pfred1: it's been a while since I've done any transistor logic stuff
05:15 PM pfred1: a long while
05:15 PM XXCoder: P != NP
05:15 PM Wolf__: except almost all end stop and home switch setups are GND triggers
05:16 PM Wolf__: least on most of the stuff I have messed with
05:17 PM XXCoder: pretty amazed that nobody still could not prove P=NP or N!=NP
05:17 PM pfred1: P & N in transistors stands for doped regions charges and holes
05:18 PM XXCoder: I know, just was thinking off in tangent
05:18 PM pfred1: I never really understood the whole migration region deal I just take it on faith that it works
05:19 PM pfred1: two of the guys that made the first transistor lived in my home town when they did their work
05:20 PM pfred1: Bratton and Bardeen
05:20 PM XXCoder: nice
05:20 PM pfred1: I grew up next door to bell Labs
05:20 PM pfred1: dennis ritchie grew up in my home town too
05:20 PM XXCoder: its amazing sometimes that some stuff has such a humble beginning. goodamn arhram bell was trying to invent hearing aid for his deaf wife when he invented phone
05:22 PM pfred1: deaf women are hard to live with so I can understand his motivations there
05:22 PM pfred1: they can be rather selectively deaf a lot it seems
05:22 PM XXCoder: wonderful, ableism + mygonstic
05:23 PM pfred1: hey he's the one that did the work
05:24 PM Wolf__: Crom_: what part number on the switches you are tying to use?
05:25 PM pfred1: this was one of the last circuits I whipped up with a transistor it was in 2012 https://www.instructables.com/id/Low-Battery-Motor-Shut-Off-Circuit/
05:27 PM pfred1: the cap across the zener was my own invention
05:28 PM pfred1: it adds hystersis to the circuit
05:28 PM pfred1: so it doesn't just switch on and off
05:29 PM XXCoder: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-45141891 "Your mom said I'm big enough"
05:30 PM XXCoder: here it would be a minor hill
05:31 PM pfred1: I guess the pile of rocks puts it over the top?
05:31 PM XXCoder: lol
05:31 PM XXCoder: apparently old way of surveying heights was inaccurate
05:31 PM pfred1: I've actually read about that before
05:31 PM XXCoder: they did it again and its just over mountain defintion height
05:32 PM pfred1: I grew up in a hilly place and yeah that would barely be a bump in the road
05:32 PM XXCoder: think they are on near peak, so not much height left. but yeah it dont evem have snow
05:33 PM pfred1: I guess it was called the Watchung mountain range though
05:33 PM pfred1: but it wasn't like the swiss alps or anything like that
05:33 PM pfred1: we still had some pretty nasty grades in places
05:34 PM pfred1: I remember whe nI was a kid I was bicycling with a few other kids to an arcade and one kid lost his brakes going down a hill
05:34 PM pfred1: man he was flying
05:35 PM XXCoder: lol that happened to me, and as bonus I was almost clocked by front brake
05:35 PM pfred1: he didn't get hurt so it was pretty funny
05:35 PM XXCoder: it hit my hair and not my head its that close
05:35 PM pfred1: but it was all he could do to stay on that road
05:36 PM XXCoder: and it almost went in between wheel wires
05:36 PM XXCoder: thankfully it didnt, I had to grind away on my shoes slowing down as it was around 40 degrees slope
05:36 PM pfred1: there were hills where we could hit 60 MPH going down them
05:37 PM pfred1: like the top of Summit ave if you pedaled until you stripped out you'd really be going coasting then
05:37 PM pfred1: that road was pretty straight so going fast on it wasn't so bad
05:38 PM pfred1: the road where that kid lost his brakes wasn't straight
05:39 PM XXCoder: ow heh
05:40 PM pfred1: this was the road we were on https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6685337,-74.3872703,21z?hl=en
05:41 PM XXCoder: wow finally see the new sphere map
05:41 PM pfred1: follow that road down a bit in street view
05:42 PM pfred1: it gets a little hairy
05:45 PM XXCoder: fun
05:46 PM pfred1: yeah it's a road where if you have brakes on a bicycle everyone uses them
05:46 PM pfred1: but poor Scott that day lost his
05:46 PM XXCoder: I had converted my bicycle to direct drive when I was a kid
05:46 PM XXCoder: hell of a lot fun
05:47 PM XXCoder: I also had iron legs back then
05:47 PM pfred1: we never did that
05:47 PM pfred1: oh you mean a fixie?
05:47 PM XXCoder: well sorta, I couldnt make it true fixed
05:47 PM XXCoder: but only one gear
05:47 PM pfred1: when I was young we stayed in top gear a lot
05:48 PM pfred1: today I htink I
05:48 PM pfred1: today I think I'd stroke out if I tried to climb some of them hills
05:48 PM Wolf__: today you look at e-bikes =P
05:49 PM pfred1: or I'd be in the bottom gear of my Trek touring bike standing up
05:50 PM Wolf__: I need to take my bike out more often
05:50 PM XXCoder: lol yeah I would probably die when I try go up 45 degree+ hill with single gear
05:50 PM pfred1: I keep thinking about it
05:50 PM XXCoder: I used to do it almost daily
05:50 PM pfred1: we had no 45 degree hills i don't think
05:50 PM pfred1: a couple steep grades though
05:50 PM XXCoder: I lived at calfornia that time, hella hills there
05:50 PM robotustra: :)
05:50 PM pfred1: like the High St. bridge
05:51 PM XXCoder: I thought it was sharpest hills ever till I found one thats around 50 degrees when I was driving home lol
05:51 PM XXCoder: glad my van could take it
05:51 PM Wolf__: https://i.imgur.com/jU3yxYt.jpg all rocks and roots and hills here
05:51 PM pfred1: 50 degrees is a wall
05:51 PM XXCoder: it sure looked like one.
05:52 PM Wolf__: https://i.imgur.com/2xyJp5i.png
05:52 PM pfred1: no rocks or hills where I live now
05:52 PM pfred1: traveling on the flat ain't easy though you never get to coast and take a break
05:52 PM * robotustra : plastic toys listen to Rammstein https://imgur.com/jDUrfjK
05:52 PM XXCoder: Wolf__: dang
05:53 PM XXCoder: is that from some tool you have?
05:53 PM Wolf__: yeah, phone app
05:53 PM XXCoder: lol pfred1 that reminds me, once I was bicycling flat surface, but I was getting tired at twice the normal rate
05:53 PM XXCoder: finally there was just little hills, then wait I'm halfway up very high hill?
05:54 PM pfred1: XXCoder it is pretty draining to travel on flat
05:54 PM XXCoder: apparently I wasnt traveling on flat road, it was inclined maybe 15 degrees
05:54 PM XXCoder: so im working harder
05:54 PM pfred1: you don't have any good coasting to even look forward to
05:54 PM XXCoder: return wooow I coasted for 10 miles without single stroke
05:55 PM XXCoder: then finally normal bicycling for last couple miles
05:55 PM Wolf__: I try to plan for downhill back to my car lol
05:55 PM XXCoder: man I miss my old favorite bicycle trail loop
05:55 PM XXCoder: it had one nasty hill near start, then its easy most of it
05:56 PM XXCoder: Wolf__: what name of app?
05:57 PM XXCoder: is there cheap source of gears? my bicycle rear gears is shot from way too many miles on it
05:58 PM pfred1: you mean a cassette or oh what the hell did they used to call them?
05:58 PM MrHindsight: besides China and home CNC?
05:58 PM XXCoder: dunno, its cone of different sizes gears
05:58 PM MrHindsight: bike bone yard
05:58 PM pfred1: yeah I thnk you mean the cassette
05:58 PM pfred1: there used to be another name for them years ago like freewheel?
05:59 PM Wolf__: XXCoder: I think that was the Strava app
05:59 PM pfred1: but I can't even remember now
05:59 PM MrHindsight: bike gears on the rear
05:59 PM Wolf__: free wheel hub is what the cassette goes on
05:59 PM pfred1: cluster
06:00 PM pfred1: yeah you're better off just getting a whole new one I think unless you have campy gear or something
06:00 PM Wolf__: I bought a used bike https://i.imgur.com/jyrBlpV.jpg and totally over hauled it, new BB, crank, 10x cassette, new hydro brakes...
06:00 PM {HD}: Everytime I go into a circle pass it overshoots a ‘squeek’... https://i.imgur.com/MHt6zL3.jpg
06:01 PM pfred1: here every other year a town by me auctions off the bikes they end up with and they sell bikes for $5 a piece
06:01 PM pfred1: it is a beach town so they end up with hundreds of bicycles
06:01 PM pfred1: it takes them hours selling them a couple a minute
06:01 PM XXCoder: pfred1: not too sure what my plan is, I barely have time as it is. I want to just do couple miles each weekend
06:02 PM XXCoder: I doubt I can do 50 mile a weekend like I used to.
06:02 PM {HD}: Maybe an Acceleration setting?
06:02 PM XXCoder: is your circles really a circle?
06:02 PM XXCoder: picture is bit blurry so harder to tell
06:02 PM pfred1: wow the bicycle warehouse is still a thing
06:03 PM Wolf__: XXCoder: https://www.jensonusa.com/Cassettes-Cogs
06:03 PM XXCoder: lol bicycle is just $120 when I boight it
06:03 PM pfred1: I only have 2 bikes now one I got for free
06:04 PM XXCoder: {HD}: if I recall you want acceration higher than max speed
06:04 PM pfred1: the other one I bought used for $50
06:04 PM MrHindsight: around here there are lots of bike shops with used parts
06:04 PM pfred1: but it is like a $1,200 bike
06:04 PM {HD}: XXCoder: really!? Wow
06:04 PM XXCoder: but I probably am misremembering
06:04 PM XXCoder: guys?
06:04 PM {HD}: XXCoder: doh!
06:04 PM Wolf__: can get new take off bike parts on ebay as well
06:05 PM MrHindsight: there are also shops with CF everything with aerospace pricing
06:05 PM robotustra: I have no idea where to ride by bike. I worry that I'll ride by bike without reason I could be arrested for loitering.
06:05 PM XXCoder: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/39-pncconf/26402-determining-max-velocity-max-acceleration {HD}
06:05 PM pfred1: I have a vintage Nishiki frame i want to build up with some parts i have from an old bike that I wrecked
06:05 PM Wolf__: thats how I rebuilt that jamis
06:05 PM MrHindsight: robotustra: do they shoot you for that and ask questions later?
06:05 PM XXCoder: mines very cheap alum bicycle lol a hyrid
06:06 PM XXCoder: half street half mountain bicycle
06:06 PM robotustra: MrHindsight, canadian police could :)
06:06 PM MrHindsight: robotustra: at least they are friendly about it there
06:06 PM MrHindsight: down here they shoot and are not friendly
06:07 PM Wolf__: XXCoder: as long as the frame is good, usually the cost diff on bikes is the components
06:07 PM pfred1: I'm telling ya $5 a bicycle
06:07 PM pfred1: they got some really nice ones too
06:07 PM MrHindsight: politely shot vs belligerent shooting
06:07 PM robotustra: yeah, police in here is not agressive
06:07 PM XXCoder: walmart bicycle if I recall right. it was well before my refusal to buy there again
06:07 PM Wolf__: lol
06:07 PM pfred1: walmart has nice bikes
06:08 PM pfred1: for what the parts would cost yo uthey're great deals
06:08 PM Wolf__: will be ok for gravel trail stuff
06:08 PM XXCoder: wouldnt know, havent went there for over 10 years
06:08 PM MrHindsight: bikes around here were treated like public property even if secured with cable or chains
06:09 PM pfred1: come come now not shopping at Walmart is unamerican
06:09 PM Wolf__: same here MrHindsight
06:09 PM {HD}: XXCoder I am running 500mm/min feed and 100mm/sec/sec
06:09 PM Wolf__: one guy had his $3000 bike stolen off his truck while eating lunch a few weeks ago
06:09 PM {HD}: Would that cause it?
06:09 PM pfred1: {HD} what's that in English?
06:09 PM MrHindsight: now they mostly have rent-a-bikes that nobody wants to steal
06:10 PM XXCoder: MrHindsight: I put ugly on my biccyle
06:10 PM XXCoder: easy enough
06:10 PM pfred1: only 20IPM?
06:10 PM MrHindsight: my bikes all self destruct if ridden improperly
06:10 PM pfred1: I guess that's what i cut at a lot
06:11 PM {HD}: pfred1: its a laser plotter so...more about depth of burn...
06:12 PM pfred1: ah feel the Bern
06:12 PM MrHindsight: no single payer healthcare for you!
06:12 PM pfred1: I've thought about getting a laser for my machine
06:12 PM Wolf__: {HD}: have to calibrated the step distance yet?
06:12 PM {HD}: Wolf__: yep.
06:12 PM pfred1: how many Watts do you have?
06:13 PM MrHindsight: anyone have an electric bike?
06:13 PM {HD}: 80steps per/mm its a 5w maybe 5.5
06:13 PM pfred1: so like a diode then
06:14 PM Wolf__: I looked at electric bikes some, ended up ordering a one wheel instead
06:14 PM {HD}: Its not a co2 laser
06:14 PM pfred1: no 40W CO2 job
06:14 PM pfred1: right
06:14 PM pfred1: those are expensive to run
06:14 PM MrHindsight: around here they are very not into electric vehicles unless it's a status symbol (Tesla)
06:14 PM pfred1: the tubes don't last forever
06:14 PM MrHindsight: they don't even like ethanol in their gas
06:14 PM pfred1: in fact they usually don't last a year
06:15 PM XXCoder: always wanted a laser but never really saw reason to get one
06:15 PM pfred1: XXCoder because they're cool
06:15 PM MrHindsight: RF laser tube for the win
06:15 PM pfred1: whe nI was in grade school the geeks from the labs came to my school and put on a presentation about lasers
06:15 PM Wolf__: {HD}: keep messing with it, should be able to get it engraving well https://i.imgur.com/oYn7JHD.jpg I got this janky thing working
06:15 PM XXCoder: pfred1: it doesnt help that im afraid of being blinded. even if I wear googles when its on at all time
06:15 PM pfred1: they were hilarious
06:15 PM pfred1: this was like the early 70s
06:16 PM XXCoder: Wolf__: what power is that?
06:16 PM Wolf__: 2.5w
06:16 PM XXCoder: it can cut wood with that?
06:16 PM MrHindsight: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/X-Series-co2-rf-metal-laser_60643410614.html
06:16 PM Wolf__: if its 1mm or less maybe
06:16 PM pfred1: XXCoder laser or no laser I'm slowly going blind anyways
06:17 PM {HD}: Wolf__: nice! I will remember who to ask for help now.
06:17 PM XXCoder: glumca or something like umm heinseberg? or is that one stool issues one hm
06:17 PM Wolf__: https://i.imgur.com/2s4u8Qe.jpg
06:17 PM XXCoder: Wolf__: cool though, do you just change it to mill to mill holes?
06:18 PM pfred1: XXCoder wit hthe big lasers I think the bigger hazard is not electrocuting yourself with it
06:18 PM Wolf__: {HD}: I actually have no idea what i’m doing, but that laser is fully scratch built 3d printed parts lol
06:18 PM MrHindsight: 450nm?
06:18 PM pfred1: they have some serious PSUs
06:18 PM MrHindsight: ah ok 2.5W 450nm
06:18 PM Wolf__: XXCoder: just to play with, mark wood and learning the software
06:18 PM XXCoder: nice
06:19 PM XXCoder: you could do 4th axis and make some really nice engraved wood light bases
06:19 PM pfred1: I pen plot a lot with my machine
06:19 PM MrHindsight: you can SLS dark plastic parts with that
06:20 PM Wolf__: true
06:20 PM MrHindsight: https://www.amazon.com/450nm-Module-Carving-Engraver-Goggles/dp/B079678VZD
06:20 PM {HD}: Sls?
06:21 PM XXCoder: "Advertised as 2.5W unit. Actual listed power based on model number on laser is 1.6W. False advertising"
06:21 PM MrHindsight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_laser_sintering
06:21 PM pfred1: 2.5 Chinese Watts
06:21 PM MrHindsight: {HD}: ^^^
06:21 PM XXCoder: indeed
06:21 PM pfred1: I htink they scale everything there by at least 60%
06:21 PM Wolf__: mine came from ail so its probably worse lol
06:22 PM pfred1: ali? I love my ali junk
06:22 PM {HD}: Neat
06:22 PM pfred1: come to think about it I have to go check my mail I have an order coming
06:22 PM Wolf__: i really wanted to build a 100w reci co2
06:22 PM {HD}: All right back to the dungeon for me. I’m going to go just try really high settings and really low settings and see what the differences are.
06:25 PM Wolf__: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2-5w-high-power-450NM-focusing-blue-laser-module-laser-engraving-and-cutting-TTL-module-2500mw/32790785641.html I went for the cheapest i could find at the time when I ordered lol
06:30 PM {HD}: My camera can’t focus tighten up in order to illustrate the issue I’m having.
06:30 PM {HD}: Um... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
06:30 PM Wolf__: over shoot on curves?
06:31 PM {HD}: Wolf__: yea! Did you see my pic ^^
06:32 PM Wolf__: yeah I did
06:33 PM Wolf__: too many variables lol, but I would try less speed
06:36 PM MrHindsight: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/MAX-PHOTONICS-30W-FIBER-LASER-MODULE-USE-FOR-FIBER-LASER-MACHINE/926078_1928764394.html YAG me with a laser
06:36 PM XXCoder: lol. Geology rocks but geography is where its at.
06:37 PM MrHindsight: https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/SACNdre10-digital-galvanometer-Wavelength-532nm/926078_32816296356.html
06:37 PM {HD}: I found my issue!… I think. I’ll explain after I eat dinner.
06:38 PM XXCoder: hey remeber this channel rule, {HD} . if you menion dinner you must share it with all of us
06:38 PM MrHindsight: pizza
06:38 PM XXCoder: (%> (%> (%> (%> (%> (%> (%>
06:38 PM XXCoder: some beers with it c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_] c[_]
06:39 PM Wolf__: I wish I knew enough to build my own YAG galvo setup
06:39 PM MrHindsight: best ascii meal I've had in a while
06:39 PM XXCoder: youre welcome
06:39 PM MrHindsight: Wolf__: some galvos still have analog inputs, so you drive them like a servo
06:40 PM XXCoder: I wanted to try use galvos to make a fake vector screen
06:41 PM XXCoder: so it could replace old vector screen
06:41 PM XXCoder: but im no electrician sadly
06:41 PM XXCoder: if one of you guys do a kickstarter on it, give me fully functional one for idea
06:42 PM Wolf__: out side of my current skill sets
06:42 PM pfred1: start small and build up
06:43 PM MrHindsight: https://postimg.cc/image/5cq9v0udp/ 30w RF CO2 laser and analog galvo head
06:45 PM MrHindsight: XXCoder: what size display?
06:45 PM XXCoder: honestly dunno
06:46 PM XXCoder: im sure same system can drive whatever size
06:46 PM MrHindsight: how about an old oscilloscope?
06:46 PM XXCoder: as long as its up to speed
06:46 PM XXCoder: honestly I have no usercase besides "it'd be cool of.."
06:46 PM MrHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2O01mNVMN0
06:46 PM XXCoder: because vector displays is not being made anymore, some of stuff cant be used as efefctively
06:47 PM MrHindsight: crt vector graphics display
06:47 PM pfred1: Temptest
06:47 PM XXCoder: yeah CRT is also dying. I was thinking maybe fake it by using laser and glow screen to do fadeout just like real display
06:47 PM XXCoder: for POV
06:47 PM pfred1: that was a sick vector graphics game
06:48 PM MrHindsight: I see CRT monitors at Good Will
06:49 PM pfred1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q2w8Bh_dJc
06:49 PM MrHindsight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/19-Wells-Gardner-Arcade-Monitor-with-Frame-Working-From-Williams-Defender-/273398103899
06:50 PM MrHindsight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NINTENDO-19-Arcade-CRT-monitor-screen-from-Donkey-Kong-Video-Game-510UTB22-/123177129672
06:50 PM XXCoder: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCUiCs-aYNk combine that with board you linked to MrHindsight
06:50 PM XXCoder: and we got a fixing for making fake vector montiors, just need screen
07:02 PM {HD}: So! The gcode reverses directions on the last pass! So I just need to figure out how to get flatcam to output all in one direction.
07:03 PM Wolf__: so its causing backlash to show on last pass?
07:04 PM {HD}: Backlash or deceleration deviation
07:10 PM {HD}: So do I try to modify the gcode generation or keep messing with settings or evaluating backlash...?
07:13 PM Wolf__: I would work on getting the backlash out of it first, may need to play with acceleration and speed depending on how much moving mass you have in the machine
07:14 PM {HD}: Its super light. Just the laser...When testing backlash I don’t see any...
07:16 PM pfred1: ug now i have to uninstall all of that nonsense
07:17 PM pfred1: can't have just one python can we?
07:44 PM {HD}: I just did a run at extremely slow speed! And I still have the artifact. I do not see any backlash in my system.
07:44 PM {HD}: I also don’t see any options in “flat cam“ to make all passes clockwise
07:48 PM Wolf__: might be the cam output then
07:57 PM {HD}: Wolf__: what do you use?
07:57 PM Wolf__: using laser web right now
07:57 PM {HD}: Currently I am using Gerber files to gen gcode for PCBs.
07:57 PM Wolf__: from vector files
08:03 PM {HD}: Laser web is cool.
08:04 PM Wolf__: somewhat, I’m using a smoothie so I load the gcode to the board vs drip feeding it
08:14 PM {HD}: https://i.imgur.com/RNPdztV.jpg
08:15 PM Wolf__: well, thats not right
08:15 PM {HD}: That’s when you type in 500 thinking 500 mm/m but accidentally selected 500 mm/s.
08:15 PM Wolf__: lol
08:16 PM {HD}: Yep. This is just a test board so no big deal.
08:18 PM Wolf__: I think I need to keep mine around 300mm/s to keep it from messing up
08:19 PM Wolf__: mostly because of crappy bearings in the rails
08:25 PM {HD}: If I’m trying to discolor paper I can go at 5000 mm/m.
08:30 PM Wolf__: mine did better before it got rusted up in my garage
08:39 PM {HD}: Yikes! Wheres the lube?
08:40 PM Wolf__: oops lol
08:43 PM {HD}: Increasing the belt tension did not help :-(
08:53 PM Wolf__: check all the drive pulley set screws
09:13 PM {HD}: Yep they’re all fine
09:14 PM Wolf__: then.. I have no idea lol
09:14 PM {HD}: It must be the software generating the G code. I’m gonna go just do some vector conversion with some circles and lines.
09:48 PM flyback: https://shop.evilmadscientist.com/productsmenu/652
10:30 PM roycroft: it is almost dark
10:30 PM roycroft: which means it's almost time to go deal with the wasp nest
10:30 PM * roycroft is hoping to not get stung a couple dozen more times
10:31 PM XXCoder: wear coat and gloves for winter
10:32 PM XXCoder: cover your head with towel
10:32 PM roycroft: i shall wear heavy clothing
10:32 PM roycroft: it should be ok
10:32 PM XXCoder: then use thin plastic you can see thogh to cover face
10:32 PM roycroft: it's a ground next
10:32 PM roycroft: nest
10:32 PM XXCoder: hornets eh
10:32 PM roycroft: i'm going to cover the hole with window screen first
10:32 PM roycroft: then weigh it down all around the hole with a bunch of bricks
10:32 PM roycroft: that should keep them from getting out
10:33 PM roycroft: assuming there is only one hole, and i looked around and could only find one hole
10:33 PM XXCoder: so after covering whats your plan
10:33 PM roycroft: i will squirt some dish washing soap down the hole
10:34 PM roycroft: then fill it with water
10:34 PM roycroft: repeat until it takes no more water
10:34 PM roycroft: then cover the screen with a bowl and let it sit overnight
10:35 PM XXCoder: nice
10:35 PM roycroft: i'm not fan of pesticides, and this nest is fairly close to one of my herb beds, so i especially don't want to use anything nasty
10:36 PM roycroft: the soap will both coat their wings so they cannot fly, and coat their bodies so they cannot breath
10:36 PM roycroft: w
10:36 PM roycroft: e, rather
10:36 PM XXCoder: yeah i killed a hornet nest with just water. lots of watrr
10:37 PM roycroft: i've done this before, although it's been a long time
10:37 PM roycroft: it's very effective
10:41 PM XXCoder: yeah hornets isnt too common
10:41 PM XXCoder: not compared to paper wasps, other kinds of wasps
10:41 PM roycroft: it's probably been 15 years since i've had to deal with an underground nest
10:42 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/Final/Z-Riser_blocks.jpg
10:42 PM roycroft: i found it while mowing the lawn today
10:42 PM Tom_L: raised Z up a bit
10:42 PM roycroft: i got a couple dozen stings before i could get away
10:42 PM XXCoder: nice, Tom_L
10:42 PM Tom_L: better vise clearance
10:42 PM XXCoder: looks like 2 in or so?
10:42 PM roycroft: i'm glad i'm not young any more
10:42 PM Tom_L: yes
10:42 PM roycroft: because i was highly allergic to bee/wasp venom when i was young
10:42 PM XXCoder: ow
10:43 PM XXCoder: older also means harder to run away though lol
10:43 PM roycroft: i had the energy of a 20-year-old when they started stinging
10:44 PM roycroft: swatting at them does not help
10:44 PM roycroft: killing them does not help
10:44 PM roycroft: both cause them to emit pheromes that bring more wasps
10:44 PM roycroft: more VERY ANGRY wasps
10:44 PM roycroft: the only thing to do is run away
10:45 PM roycroft: anyway, dinner is over
10:45 PM roycroft: and it's dark enough that the little wasps will all be tucked into bed for the night
10:46 PM jesseg: djdelorie, hey do you happen to know how kicad exports solder paste gerber files? Specifically, when a flash is not suitable, does it have the option to use a G36 polygon?
10:46 PM djdelorie: I don't know, I don't use kicad
10:46 PM roycroft: so i should go put on way too much clothing and go out and deal with them
10:46 PM jesseg: djdelorie, gocha. How about what you do use?
10:46 PM djdelorie: I use geda
10:46 PM jesseg: yeah geda
10:46 PM djdelorie: and it doesn't use flashes
10:46 PM jesseg: cool, just pure G36 poly's?
10:47 PM djdelorie: or lines, but yeah, all drawn
10:47 PM jesseg: or just vector scan line filled perimeters?
10:47 PM djdelorie: I think it will flash a circle though
10:48 PM jesseg: I'm trying to outfit a Cricut stencil cutter to cut paste masks lol. Eagle (ugh) uses the old polygons made of an outline and a hundred filler paths inside it which is kind of a pain to send to a drag knife cutter :P
10:48 PM djdelorie: a fill polygon from geda is a G36
10:49 PM jesseg: oh that is sweeeet
10:49 PM djdelorie: whether it uses it or not, I can't guarantee :-)
10:49 PM djdelorie: it can also export eps and png
10:50 PM jesseg: fascinating. I'm also working on a scanning UV laser exposure for printing image based data onto UV sensitized PCB or for doing silkscreen -- gonna try to use the scanning mirror from an old old laser printer.
10:50 PM jesseg: and I'd need png for that format
10:51 PM djdelorie: note: look at the pcb-rnd project, it may have importers and/or converters for other formats
10:51 PM djdelorie: else you need to design your board with geda too
10:51 PM djdelorie: (pcb-rnd is a fork of geda's pcb)
10:51 PM jesseg: cool, thanks
11:00 PM jesseg: djdelorie, this pcb-rnd looks very interesting... I wonder how bloody hard it is to get it to compile on slackware LOL
11:00 PM djdelorie: shouldn't be too hard, they use older hardware to develop on
11:01 PM jesseg: yeah but if they use bleeding edge libraries then I'll have to spider the dependency hell tree. Slackware is like the worst when it comes to getting going with a modern cutting edge graphics application :D
11:01 PM jesseg: It's also the most stable thing I've ever seen.
11:08 PM jesseg: oh blah... ar: libgenlist.a: Malformed archive
11:08 PM jesseg: so ./configure ran fine but make bombed out.
11:08 PM jesseg: and I'm not even sure why. maybe it's because I'm running 32/64 bit with multilib
11:08 PM jesseg: oh well I tried :D
11:13 PM roycroft: well that ended up being exciting for only a few seconds
11:13 PM roycroft: i had everything staged ahead of time
11:13 PM roycroft: i had the entrance hole roughly marked with a couple bricks
11:14 PM roycroft: i threw down the screening, which was way oversize, and then flipped on the bright light that i needed to locate the hole
11:14 PM roycroft: the instant i turned on the light the wasps started trying to come out
11:14 PM roycroft: but i got the bricks surrounding their hole very quickly, and not a single one was able to make an escape
11:15 PM jesseg: and then what happened!
11:15 PM roycroft: then i did the thing
11:16 PM jesseg: raid?
11:16 PM roycroft: squirting the soap and filling the hole with water
11:16 PM roycroft: no, of course not
11:16 PM jesseg: oh cool soap can work great
11:16 PM roycroft: soapy water is all that's needed to kill wasps
11:16 PM jesseg: especially dawn
11:16 PM roycroft: i used seventh gen, which is an all-natural soap that i have been using for my dishes for decades
11:16 PM jesseg: I've tried a number of different liquid dish soaps and some of the cheap stuff doesn't work well
11:17 PM roycroft: there is no sign at all of wasps
11:17 PM jesseg: splendid
11:17 PM roycroft: and i left the light shining down the hole for several minutes after i turned the water off
11:17 PM roycroft: i won't know until the morrow if they're really gone
11:17 PM roycroft: but i think they are all dead
11:17 PM roycroft: i'll have to dig up their nest and fill it back in so that other wasps don't show up
11:18 PM roycroft: ground wasps are not pollinators
11:18 PM jesseg: not as fun as what I did one time. I took some pyrodex (i.e. old fashioned black powder for muzzle loaders -- essentially solid rocket fuel) and filled the whole up with that and put a wick in it and lit it off.. at night..
11:18 PM roycroft: i have absolutely no problem eliminating them
11:19 PM jesseg: why don't you pour molten aluminum down the hole first to make some wasp art?
11:19 PM roycroft: my method is very effective and very low impact
11:20 PM roycroft: the nest was not only close to one of my herb beds, it was very close to the mailboxes for myself and two other neighbors
11:20 PM roycroft: i would not want my letter carrier to be stung
11:21 PM jesseg: I have no problem eliminating agressive venomous creatures that invade my domicile and frequent stomping grounds. That's natural selection -- part of survivability is not ticking off other smarter species in the area - evolve to co-exist :P
11:22 PM jesseg: or get smarter
11:22 PM roycroft: it's not always best to eliminate the
11:22 PM roycroft: m
11:22 PM roycroft: if they are pollinators, getting the to swarm elsewhere would be better than killing them
11:23 PM roycroft: most pollinators are not all that agressive in the first place
11:24 PM roycroft: african killer bees notwithstanding
11:24 PM jesseg: best schemst, it's natural selection. If they can't be good neighbors they need to either leave or get smarter then me. Let a less aggressive strain or species take their place.
11:24 PM jesseg: Things have been working themselves out for a very long time.
11:24 PM roycroft: yes, but humans are seriously messing with that
11:25 PM roycroft: and we're killing bees on a massive scale, often unintentially
11:25 PM XXCoder: hornets is not pollator, besides one of pain
11:25 PM jesseg: but aren't humans part of that? a product of the whole system just like every other species?
11:25 PM roycroft: compounded with the virus that is killing them as well
11:25 PM jesseg: that and the mites
11:25 PM roycroft: sure, we are
11:25 PM roycroft: the mites are mostly a problem with domesticated bees
11:25 PM roycroft: and are easily controlled
11:26 PM roycroft: but it's human activity that is tipping the scale on bee survival
11:26 PM roycroft: and if the bees go away we lose a *lot* of our food
11:26 PM roycroft: so it's in the best interest of humans to keep the pollinating bees thriving
11:26 PM roycroft: if we're to survive as a species we need to do that
11:27 PM XXCoder: indeed. just fuck wasps though
11:27 PM jesseg: there's also other pollinators like bumble bees and mason bees
11:27 PM roycroft: darwin is not all about random mutations - an intelligent species can choose to survive or not
11:27 PM roycroft: there are
11:27 PM roycroft: and there are not-bee pollinators, like dragonflys
11:28 PM roycroft: if we kill all the honey bees pollination will not cease completely
11:28 PM jesseg: I'm not so sure humans are an intelligent species but if you they are I won't argue with you.
11:28 PM roycroft: but a lot of crops will fail
11:28 PM roycroft: i did not say how intelligent :)
11:28 PM jesseg: LOL
11:28 PM roycroft: we're more intelligent than slugs
11:28 PM roycroft: there is no doubt about that
11:28 PM roycroft: we often don't use our intelligence intelligently
11:28 PM roycroft: that does not make us not intelligent though
11:34 PM jesseg: I dunno about being more intelligent then slugs. Some mornings I wake up and think "Let's see, which way shall I crawl. Oh. The fridge. Food is what I need."
11:34 PM jesseg: :P
11:43 PM jesseg: Ceiling wasps do pollinate a little bit, some even collect a little bit of honey and store it in their paper larva combs
11:43 PM jesseg: I guess for a snack for later
11:43 PM XXCoder: paper wasps?
11:43 PM jesseg: yes
11:43 PM roycroft: yes, but very few ground wasps do any pollinating
11:43 PM XXCoder: know what I hate as much as hornets? mud daubers
11:43 PM roycroft: these were really small, and were mostly black, with white stripes
11:44 PM roycroft: i'm not sure what species
11:44 PM jesseg: frankly I don't ever remember seeing any wasp/hornet in a flower, but I have seen the honey in their paper comb
11:44 PM roycroft: they were not there when i last mowed, which was about 3 weeks ago
11:44 PM roycroft: so it's a fairly young nest
11:45 PM roycroft: but there can still be 3-4 thousand of them in that brief a period of time
11:45 PM roycroft: and when i say they are small, i mean <1cm in length
11:46 PM roycroft: most ground wasps are much larger than that
11:46 PM roycroft: that may be why i'm only in a lot of discomfort now, and not in serious pain or in hospital
11:47 PM roycroft: not that the size of an insect is necessarily indicative of the toxicity of its bite/sting
11:47 PM jesseg: I didn't know dragonflies pollinated. I knew they captured and ate other bugs both in the larval and adult stages. They have a fine set of chewing mouthparts. What do they do to the flower? They don't have a long drinking tube or tongue to reach in and suck up the necter. Moths and butterflies do, though.
11:48 PM XXCoder: dragonflies eat its body weight in monstos every day
11:48 PM jesseg: I have seen many dragonflies -- red, green, blue -- but don't remember ever seeing them in a flower
11:48 PM XXCoder: so its great way to control them damn pests
11:48 PM jesseg: yeah dragonflies are one of my all time favorite insects
11:48 PM jesseg: I just don't recall ever seeing them pollinating
11:49 PM XXCoder: they dont I think
11:49 PM jesseg: pollinators usually have mouthparts that have a long part to reach down into the flower to slurp up the necter
11:51 PM roycroft: it's accidental pollination, jesseg
11:51 PM XXCoder: depends, bees dont
11:51 PM XXCoder: they just stright go in
11:51 PM roycroft: and not very effective, because of that
11:52 PM jesseg: Oh, like ants, houseflies, slugs, the wind...
11:52 PM roycroft: they hang out around things that produce/need pollin
11:52 PM roycroft: pollen
11:52 PM roycroft: because their dinner hang out in those places
11:53 PM jesseg: probably hunting honey bees :P
11:53 PM roycroft: no, they don't hunt honey bees
11:54 PM jesseg: speaking of which the wool carder bee attacks and kills honey bees and bumble bees
11:55 PM XXCoder: in least we dont have hell wasps like japan
11:55 PM XXCoder: or gun ants
11:55 PM XXCoder: its called gunshot ants because bites feel like one
11:55 PM XXCoder: and lasts day or more