#linuxcnc Logs

Jun 21 2018

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:00 AM Roguish: just looked it up. A5 is 148x210mm
12:03 AM Roguish: WTF
12:03 AM roycroft: there is no "custom scale" option in the miscellaneous section
12:03 AM roycroft: in my version of autocad
12:03 AM Roguish: custom scale seems to be the same as xp scale.
12:05 AM Roguish: you could create everything in full units, boarders and all, and then scale the final when it prints
12:06 AM Roguish: my 2012 doesn't have an A5. it has A1 -> A4,
12:06 AM roycroft: actually, if i select the viewport entity in paper space, the only properties that are available are a few general properties
12:06 AM Roguish: do a 'list' on it
12:07 AM roycroft: oh, wait
12:08 AM roycroft: i was looking at properties for both the polyline and the viewport itself
12:08 AM roycroft: when i select just the viewport then custom scale is an option
12:08 AM roycroft: and it's currently 0.003
12:09 AM roycroft: which i think indicates that it's natively metric
12:09 AM roycroft: so maybe changing that to 1 will do the trick
12:10 AM Roguish: the sheet is going to have to be bigger than A5 to fit in a 425mm line
12:10 AM Roguish: or scaled.
12:11 AM roycroft: i'm using arch b
12:11 AM Roguish: that's like 17x11
12:11 AM roycroft: yes
12:11 AM roycroft: and yes, 425mm won't fit
12:11 AM Roguish: 425mm=16.7322 in
12:11 AM roycroft: it's 279.4x431.8mm
12:13 AM Roguish: hey, good luck. keep at it and you'll beat it out of acad. gotta hit the hay now. ttfn
12:13 AM roycroft: thanks for the pointers
12:13 AM roycroft: i think i'm closer
12:13 AM Roguish: caio
12:18 AM roycroft: hmm, i just plotted a 100mm line and it's 254mm long
12:20 AM fragalot: that's an odd conversion
12:22 AM roycroft: it would be the inch:cm ratio
12:23 AM roycroft: which tells me my scaling factor is still thinking inches
12:26 AM roycroft: yeah, that's not the property i want to change
12:26 AM roycroft: when i change the custom scaling factor it resizes the line properly
12:26 AM roycroft: but when i do 'z 1xp' it blows it way up
12:27 AM roycroft: so zooming in model space is not directly related to the viewport, apparently
12:30 AM roycroft: in fact, i set the custom scaling factor to 0.00394, and the line in the viewport looked like the correct size when i applied it
12:30 AM roycroft: but then when i typed "z 1xp", the line got much bigger, and the custom scaling factor for the viewport had changed
01:06 AM miss0r2: mornin
01:07 AM IchGucksLive: hi all
01:07 AM IchGucksLive: anothere summerday to be expected
01:12 AM IchGucksLive: im off 2 garden Bye
01:12 AM miss0r2: I stumbled across the mexican fellah doing some realy nice machining: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8_CK6nwlZ0U4UtOnvZwJnw
01:12 AM miss0r2: worth a while I'd say
01:23 AM MarcelineVQ: isn't that interesting, the algorithm must be preferring him for some reason, I just found him independently today as well
01:26 AM miss0r2: Interesting :]
01:33 AM roycroft: heh
01:33 AM roycroft: i just saw that guy's toe clamp video the other day
01:33 AM roycroft: i had never heard of him, but there was a link to that video on another video i was watching
01:34 AM roycroft: the video has 97k views
01:34 AM roycroft: not a huge number, but quite a few
01:35 AM roycroft: it was published less than a week ago, though
01:35 AM roycroft: so a good number of views for that short a period of time
01:36 AM miss0r2: yeah
01:36 AM miss0r2: Funny how that algorithm works.
01:36 AM miss0r2: Very good videos imo
01:37 AM roycroft: i've only seen the one
01:37 AM roycroft: but he's very skilled
01:37 AM roycroft: and they are shot very well
01:38 AM roycroft: and i really like those clamps :)
01:38 AM miss0r2: Yeah. hehe, I've often thought about making some real youtube videos of me machining stuff. But then I realize how much work is spend editing & how much money/time is needed for proper video..
01:38 AM miss0r2: so, meh.
01:39 AM miss0r2: hehe - not that I could ever compare myself to either steffan or abom.
01:39 AM miss0r2: hmm... maybe with the magic of editing :D
01:41 AM roycroft: someone did an analysis of april wilkerson's videos (she does woodworking videos, is an attractive young woman with long hair and wears short shorts all the time, so her videos are very popular)
01:41 AM roycroft: iirc he estimates that she brings in ~$400-$500/day from her videos
01:42 AM miss0r2: :o you could live doing that
01:42 AM roycroft: so one can make a good living doing that
01:43 AM roycroft: but she gets a half million views on average for every video she releases
01:46 AM miss0r2: how does 230lb fullbearded male, working in steel wearing overalls sound in comparison? :D
01:46 AM roycroft: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMJS-oRKCtY
01:46 AM miss0r2: It would hardly bring that income :ţ
01:46 AM roycroft: can you compete with that?
01:46 AM miss0r2: I cannot.
01:46 AM roycroft: besides her being attractive
01:46 AM miss0r2 is now known as miss0r
01:46 AM roycroft: she is actually fairly skilld
01:46 AM roycroft: and chooses approachable projects
01:46 AM roycroft: and she's articulate
01:46 AM roycroft: and that texas drawl is probably a factor
01:46 AM miss0r: I'm not sure what is more important. Knowing this is the internet, I'm worried the attractive part is most important
01:48 AM roycroft: and makes crude videos
01:48 AM roycroft: but he says "bollocks" all the time
01:48 AM roycroft: and can still get a few hundred thousand hits
01:48 AM roycroft: there's no telling what youtube viewers like
01:48 AM miss0r: hehe
01:49 AM miss0r: I have a video of me removing a hornets nest with one of those tire air cannons
01:49 AM miss0r: you know, the ones used to blow truck tires onto the rims
01:49 AM roycroft: did you shout "bollocks" when the wasps started coming after you?
01:49 AM roycroft: er, hornets
01:50 AM miss0r: nah, I made a crude remove operation, and fired it from inside my car :D
01:50 AM roycroft: nobody wants to watch that
01:50 AM roycroft: they want to watch you running away from the hornets
01:51 AM miss0r: Yeah. I'm not going to be an internet sensation any time soon.
01:51 AM miss0r: If I had recorded while I started the EDM the other day, where I forgot to reattach the highpressure line... that would have created some views
01:53 AM miss0r: Anyway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAmr15_hpNU this is what it looks like
01:54 AM miss0r: also, speaking of very attractive people who also knows stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKZoP9mZ744&t
01:58 AM gloops: cant say April is really my type..
02:01 AM gloops: well, bought of couple of sbr rails and bearings cheap, very cheap, 600mm i reckon theyll make a good sliding carriage for a table saw
02:08 AM gloops: 150mm for footprint, that leaves 450mm cut, ok for most things i do, have got the space to cut big panels on the saw anyway
02:08 AM gloops: havent
02:18 AM selroc: hi
02:22 AM Deejay: moin
02:54 AM holzjunkie: Moin
04:35 AM BitEvil is now known as SpeedEvil
04:58 AM XXCoder: miss0r: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt9zSfinwFA ;)
07:36 AM holzjunkie: can anyone help for
07:41 AM holzjunkie: maschine setup of an maho MH600c
07:45 AM miss0r: I might be able to help
07:45 AM miss0r: What do you need to know?
07:46 AM miss0r: holzjunkie:
07:47 AM holzjunkie: nearby everything ;-)
07:48 AM miss0r: is it a philips 432?
07:49 AM holzjunkie: yes it was now i´ve wired an 7i80 with an 7i77
07:49 AM miss0r: woah, we just left my area of expertise.
07:50 AM miss0r: does it have heidenhein linear glass scales?
07:50 AM holzjunkie: dam dam dam
07:51 AM * Loetmichel is soldering/filing in series.... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17130&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 :-)
07:51 AM holzjunkie: no there new ones with ttl but not mounted til now
07:53 AM miss0r: alright. I think you need someone to help you with the mesa setup part.
07:53 AM Loetmichel: ... i like that CNC mill. makes really neat "origami enclosures" if you know how to draw them :-)
07:55 AM holzjunkie: Loetmichel: Hy michel
07:58 AM holzjunkie: Loetmichel: looks nice
09:01 AM dan3wik is now known as dan2wik
09:04 AM miss0r: milling some new brackets for the replacement relays in my EDM.. I'm going to have a hard time when soldering in the new ones. I have very little wire length to work with
09:09 AM justan0theruser is now known as justanotheruser
09:27 AM miss0r: Loetmichel: I just made the same mistake you did yesterday. well, almost: I just used heat to remove some brass plate from a workpiece holder(held in place with superglue).. and Apparently I forgot I had just used a torch on it
09:34 AM emc_ is now known as JT-Shop-2
09:46 AM IchGucksLive: hi
09:46 AM IchGucksLive: all
09:46 AM IchGucksLive: Loetmichel, did you see the new encloser line in steelsheet from paulimot
09:50 AM rmu: anybody have an idea what could be the cause for a sudden change in ENCODER_SCALE
09:50 AM rmu: of about 1/1000
09:50 AM holzjunkie: IchGucksLive: hy
09:51 AM rmu: didn't even restart machine
09:51 AM rmu: or linuxcnc
09:52 AM IchGucksLive: did you upgrade and got a mashine start worning
09:53 AM IchGucksLive: rmu, there are namechanges effects on upgrating
09:53 AM rmu: analog servos, mesa 7i48
09:53 AM rmu: IchGucksLive: no, no restart
09:53 AM rmu: just sitting there idle for about a week
09:56 AM rmu: the affected axis has ball-screw driven via timing belt and AC servo
09:56 AM rmu: encoder is mounted on servo
09:57 AM rmu: really strange
09:59 AM IchGucksLive: rmu, is it only one axis
10:00 AM IchGucksLive: is the encoder screw losen
10:01 AM rmu: no
10:02 AM rmu: nothing loose afaict
10:10 AM tjtr33: i think i'll use a solenoid to lock position on a crankwheel driving a needle cutter ( very very low mass ).
10:10 AM tjtr33: I think the Mazak at Cardinal Engineering used a shot pin orient (early EMC2 days ).
10:11 AM tjtr33: is my memory correct>? Fenn & I removed it
10:11 AM IchGucksLive: im off later
10:12 AM tjtr33: google suggests Haas also uses a shotpin
10:12 AM hazzy-lab: miss0r: Neat way to remove the hornet nest!
10:12 AM hazzy-lab: A little tannerite would also work, but I guess you were trying to keep the building .. .
10:15 AM hazzy-lab: Being a moron is one way get youtube views, my other vids just have a few, this one has 254:D
10:15 AM hazzy-lab: https://youtu.be/Qzv6vLriE5w
10:20 AM Loetmichel: *MUAHAHAHA* Customer just sent us a Thin client back "Pleease repair under warranty, headset port has the wrong pinout!" We looked at it: no headset in the box... connected one of our headset: works like a charm... so we looked in the delivery slip: they got no headset with the system... they just connecdted theirs. Problem: those systems are BSI certified for work with confidental data, they
10:20 AM Loetmichel: are only allowed to work with EXACTLY the peripherials they were certified with in the measurement chamber... So now the system sits here sans certificate and waits for either them buying a headset from us and recertify it or take it back as is...
10:20 AM gloops: hornets are bad bad creatures
10:20 AM gloops: but also pretty wonderful
10:22 AM gloops: they raid bee hives and slaughter every bee they can find, its sheer carnage
10:28 AM dan3wik is now known as dan2wik
10:31 AM rmu: they are mostly harmless if you leave the nest alone
10:50 AM jthornton: weird first egg didn't pop out till 10:15 today
10:55 AM diverdude is now known as Guest16235
11:00 AM enleth: hazzy-lab: what was that guy even thinking?
11:02 AM enleth: hazzy-lab: "turn the handle sideways and drop the load while on a moving platform" it's like the first thing anyone hears when they get a pallet jack for unsupervised use
11:03 AM enleth: one would assume a delivery guy knows this
11:04 AM jesseg: I have only one regret so far in life regarding a pallet jack.
11:04 AM jesseg: When I was in my early 20's I worked at an equipment rental store - lawnmowers, tractors, bulldozers, you name it they rented it.
11:05 AM jesseg: So one thing we rented out was "brush fans" we called them - a little 5HP gasoline engine with a wooden airplane propeller on it and a protective cage.
11:05 AM jesseg: You could put them by a stump pile and it'd help it burn by blowing on it.
11:06 AM jesseg: so I had this great idea: Put a pallet on a pallet jack, put on the fan, and go racing across the parking lot.
11:06 AM jesseg: Like a confounded fool I asked permission, and that is my one great regret.
11:06 AM jesseg: They wouldn't let me do it LOL
11:07 AM jesseg: I've always wished I'd just done it without asking :P
11:09 AM enleth: jesseg: what about using a pallet jack as a push scooter?
11:09 AM enleth: supposedly a great way to get around a warehouse
11:10 AM hazzy-lab: enleth: He was not thinking. He delivers for the whole atlanta area and I have encountered him several times, he is a really nice guy, but not the sharpest. But he can't be blamed too much, the main problem is that Grizz did/does not use thick enough blocks under their crates, so even with the jack all the way down they don't touch the ground
11:10 AM hazzy-lab: jesseg: That would have been awesome! Like a land air boat
11:10 AM enleth: hazzy-lab: ah, that explains some of it
11:10 AM jesseg: oh yeah I did that plenty but having an airplane motor to make me go would have just been so much better
11:11 AM jesseg: but yeah we rode them without the fan all the time.. but those fans had pretty good push
11:11 AM enleth: hazzy-lab: still, it would not have happened if he pushed the forks deeper to keep the front wheel set on the platform and turned it sideways
11:12 AM jesseg: wait, the pallet jack itself didn't lower far enough for its wheels to be relieved of all load bearing?
11:12 AM hazzy-lab: I have a compact pallet jack in the garage that I use for moving the mills and lathe. my nephews love using it as a kick scooter
11:13 AM enleth: jesseg: apparently this, compounded with the fact that the front wheels slipped off the platform
11:13 AM hazzy-lab: jesseg: I have never encountered a pallet jack that did that
11:13 AM lcvette-pc: pcw_mesa: i did some extensive digging through the manual last night in the drives and found jitter suppression was turned on
11:13 AM enleth: jesseg: but that was because of the "pallet" being too thin
11:14 AM jesseg: hazzy-dev, strange. I've only used a few pallet jacks in my life but they all set flat on the ground if you let them all the way down.
11:14 AM hazzy-lab: enleth: Yes, having the crate all the way back would have helped tremendously, but again it was all he could do to prize up the crate and get it on the jack at all
11:14 AM enleth: jesseg: you mean, you could not roll them empty and all the way down?
11:14 AM lcvette-pc: pcw_mesa: it appears to be in the frequency range you specified... Jitter frequency within 5.0 Hz - 50.0 Hz
11:15 AM enleth: jesseg: as in, they'd drag metal on floor instead of rolling?
11:15 AM enleth: that's some weird ass pallet jacks
11:15 AM lcvette-pc: im going to turn it off and see if it helps
11:17 AM jesseg: enleth, yeah the wheels would retract all the way into the forks. Seems like a very useful feature if one was going to be in a situation where they wanted the load to not be able to roll no matter what.
11:24 AM jesseg: btw was the people and the machine all OK?
11:24 AM hazzy-lab: jesseg: That would be good in certain situations. I am a small fellow and even on a almost dead flat slab the BP can almost get away from me, they sell a brake kit for my jack but it is pricey so I have thought about adding some UHMW skids, it would still slide smoothly enough in and out of pallets, but with load on it would stop fast
11:26 AM jesseg: I hear ya, 140 pounds here and doesn't provide much counterweight
11:27 AM hazzy-lab: jesseg: People were fine, only thing injured was pride. Machine was probably fine, it got chipped up a bit from the 4-jaw rattling around, but the driver wanted to replace it
11:28 AM jesseg: I was helping a friend change his water heater and he was going to take the old one out (that was full of minerals) on the hand cart. He wanted to take it down a couple steps and I told him "I don't think that'll work" but he did it effortlessly, so I said to him "I guess you have a bit more counterweight than I..."
11:29 AM hazzy-lab: <= is a scrawny 120
11:29 AM jdh: kg?
11:29 AM hazzy-lab: no, lb
11:29 AM sync: your own weight doesn't mean a lot
11:29 AM jesseg: wow yes that would be hard to counterweight much of a machine
11:29 AM jesseg: sync, oh yes it does :P
11:30 AM hazzy-lab: The nexair guy would alway make fun of me for not being able to even rotate the LN2 tank :D
11:30 AM sync: no, not really, at least not when moving things
11:30 AM jesseg: sync, it means you have more or less drag traction and more or less counter weighting ability
11:30 AM Rab: And either the added weight is muscle, or it's fat and you grew muscle to move it.
11:31 AM sync: it's fun to see how your weight goes down and then two months later is there again but not in fat
11:31 AM hazzy-lab: I can lift more than a lot of 240lb fit guys I know, but I can't stop something in motion ...
11:32 AM jesseg: there's a reason they add huge blocks of steel to earth moving machinery. It's not to make them stronger, it's to make them, umm, heavier :P
11:33 AM jesseg: and to balance them
11:33 AM sync: sure, but when you lift things you balance yourself
11:34 AM sync: I've had to lift things that weigh about as much as myself for a long time and it did not matter if I was 60kg or 90kg
11:34 AM jesseg: I'm not sure I'm figuring out what you're saying there, sync
11:34 AM hazzy-lab: sync: But where weight is an advantage it not lifting, but pushing/pulling like things on a jack
11:35 AM jesseg: LOL yeah... I remember when I was a kid, my dad had (lol still has) a hydraulic bumper jack with a 30 inch handle on it.
11:35 AM hazzy-lab: I can't pull a big wrench to save my life, i just don't have the mass to through behind it
11:35 AM jesseg: I'd watch him jack up the end of a truck with it, then I'd try. I could hang on the handle and not move it.
11:37 AM jesseg: Counterweight, Traction, and mass all play a vital role in many of the modes we use to manipulate objects
11:37 AM sync: hazzy-lab: that is where your second arm comes in or your feet
11:38 AM jesseg: I'ml going to eat breakfast and see if I can gain a little more counterweight :P
11:39 AM jesseg: hazzy-dev, I am surprised the delivery guy put himself in that situation though.. A) Lift gate not always level. B) what, 1500 pounds, C) Add wheels and no breaks = bad :P
11:40 AM sync: yeah
11:40 AM sync: seems like he is not experienced in unloading heavy stuff with a liftgate
11:40 AM enleth: hazzy-lab: FWIW, with my ~260lbs I could wrestle a 5000lbs printing press around on a regular pallet jack
11:40 AM jesseg: maybe his first day?
11:40 AM enleth: without that much trouble
11:45 AM enleth: and the damn thing was slightly top-heavy
11:45 AM lcvette-pc: pcw_mesa: im also thinking i should eliminate the electronic gear ratio perhaps? and let linuxcnc do the computing to eliminate any other processing that may occur in the drive and cause conflicts with the encoder feedback
11:46 AM hazzy-lab: That guy has been driving for UPS freight for years, first saw him in 08 when he delivered a big drum sander to my brothers shop, the lathe incident was in Dec15, and my brother saw him recently at GTech. He is just not the brightest fellow, but honestly tries to do his best
11:47 AM lcvette-pc: pcw_mesa: however i think this would put the pulses per revolution at 20,000 to match the encoder
11:47 AM Rab: hazzy-lab, he almost died that day, and that other dude too.
11:48 AM fragalot: hey
11:48 AM jesseg: howdy fragalot
11:52 AM Rab: Before I move a machine tool, I think to myself: is there a potential situation here which would cause my guts to come out my butt? And if there is, I work to correct that.
11:52 AM enleth: Rab: BTW, it looks like the other dude started lowering the platform when one of the forks was still over the truck bed and it might have snagged, giving the whole thing a push it needed to get going
11:55 AM Rab: enleth, I've been watching the motion at .25x speed to try to analyze the failure and devise a safer scenario, but I don't exactly see that.
11:56 AM enleth: so it might have been just the vibration/jerky motion of the platform
11:56 AM Rab: Looks like the operator might have dropped the lift a few inches and then stopped, and that was enough to jar the pallet jack into motion.
11:56 AM enleth: quite possibly
11:57 AM jesseg: and the fact that it wasn't completely level and there was a bloody heavy load on wheels and the guy holding it was already standing on the very edge? :P
11:57 AM enleth: and a safer scenario would be to do anything to keep the front wheels on the platform, turned perpendicular to the back wheels
11:57 AM Rab: It definitely looks like the wheels in the jack hadn't retracted all the way. Maybe the jack was broken.
11:58 AM enleth: Rab: all the jacks I've seen in my life don't retract fully, they always roll even lowered all the way down
11:58 AM enleth: maybe it's different in the US
11:58 AM Rab: All the jacks I've worked with could "kneel" until they were stationary.
11:58 AM Rab: hmm
11:58 AM enleth: so it's probably a US/EU difference
11:59 AM jesseg: kneel until they were stationary?
11:59 AM Rab: Like, the wheels retract until the jack is sitting on the ground.
12:00 PM Rab: Pretty sure, but I could be wrong.
12:00 PM jesseg: oh yeah that's my experience too
12:00 PM jesseg: kneel while stationary not until :D
12:00 PM hazzy-lab: enleth: The forks did indeed snag the back of the truck. That dude lowering the lift gate was me ...
12:01 PM enleth: Rab: it might be because euro pallets are required to have enough clearance underneath to drop down to the ground even when the jack is not yet completely down, while the US has a bajillion different pallet systems and standards AFAIR
12:01 PM jesseg: hmm, watched it at 0.25x, it looks like the whole lift gate tilted down a little when it began to lower and that was enough to just send things skating
12:01 PM Rab: I think a complicating factor was that the delivery guy is used to positioning heavy loads at the end of the jack tines to get greater turning leverage. But with that long crate, the footprint was too long to safely fit on the lift gate.
12:01 PM Rab: long/wide
12:02 PM enleth: Rab: so there's no real need for a EU pallet jack to hug the ground when down
12:02 PM Rab: It's diagonal, so he had to pull the jack way out onto the gate for the crate corner to clear the truck.
12:02 PM enleth: if it's that far down, it's not loaded anyway
12:02 PM Rab: It probably would have been fine without the slope.
12:03 PM jesseg: Should have put the box on the gate, got the pallet jack out from under, then re-assembled at the bottom I guess
12:04 PM Rab: enleth, there are definitely many different varieties of pallets here.
12:04 PM Rab: jesseg, yeah, sounds legit.
12:04 PM jesseg: Oh, and don't stand on the downhill side of the cargo :P
12:06 PM gregcnc: sure as hell don'tt ry to catch it when it's going over
12:07 PM hazzy-lab: When the new lathe arrived we had him park at the bottom of the street where it was LEVEL, then we helped him put the crate on a PROPER pallet, and then made sure to LOWER the jack then on the lift gate, all went well and in the end it took less time
12:07 PM Rab: Haha, yeah...it's a human impulse though.
12:07 PM gregcnc: if you don't work around heavy stuff that will kill you
12:12 PM Loetmichel: jesseg: i once got an euro pallet 2 ft full of good sot sell in the shop i worked at that time... took it on the manual pallet jack on the street, tolled it down the driveway to the shop storage room in the cellar... about 30° downslope....
12:12 PM Loetmichel: and started pulling
12:13 PM Loetmichel: downwards of the jack an pallet
12:14 PM Loetmichel: ... picking myself off the floor after getting overrun byk said pallet and #jack i looked down the driveway and saw that said palled was packed full of Nicd AA cells...
12:14 PM Loetmichel: 2 ft high...
12:14 PM Loetmichel: that was about 2/3 of a ton steamrolling me :-)
12:15 PM hazzy-lab: This was take 2. Note truck is level, the crate is on and secured to a proper pallet, the pallet jack was fully lowered when on the lift gate: https://youtu.be/mCMp3bCb6-g
12:15 PM hazzy-lab: That driver got a lesson that day! :D
12:17 PM jesseg: Loetmichel, I'm not sure I'm able to exactly parse your grammar there but it sure sounds like it was too much excitement for one day...!
12:18 PM jesseg: hazzy-dev, much much better that time :P
12:19 PM Loetmichel: jesseg: TL;DR: Toook a pallet full of batteries down a steep slope, got steamrolled.
12:19 PM Loetmichel: that as a comment on your "dont stand downhill of a heavy load"
12:19 PM jesseg: Loetmichel, yikes...!
12:20 PM Loetmichel: only about 750lg of batteries though, just a few bruises and a pretty raw ancle. no broken bones ;)
12:20 PM Loetmichel: 750kg
12:21 PM Loetmichel: ahem, more like 660kg, sorry ;)
12:22 PM Tom_L: at that point, who's counting?
12:25 PM Loetmichel: anyways, lesson learned: dont judge a pallet of something by its "feeble" looks. look at the delivery sheet how heavy it is! ;)
12:26 PM fragalot: friend of mine toppled his radial arm drill press over moving it in his new shop
12:26 PM fragalot: floor caved in
12:26 PM Loetmichel: hihi
12:26 PM fragalot: was a fun repair job, that :-)
12:27 PM Loetmichel: thankfully there was no cellar underneath it?
12:27 PM fragalot: no
12:27 PM Loetmichel: friend of mine hat a fish tank...
12:27 PM Loetmichel: a bit more than 1000 liters...
12:27 PM fragalot: whoops
12:28 PM Loetmichel: and when he moved he put it (unknowingly) EXACTLY in between two of the girders in the floor, so only on layer of 1" floor boards was supporiting it...
12:28 PM Loetmichel: then he filled it
12:28 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/women_vs_men/whymendie_index.php
12:29 PM Loetmichel: worked for most of the day and the following evening... then they head a rumble followed by a crash... the whole thing fell thru the floor and into the living room one story below
12:29 PM Loetmichel: THAT was a MESS ;)
12:29 PM Loetmichel: s/head/heard
12:31 PM Rab: Were the fish in the tank?
12:31 PM holzjunkie1 is now known as holzjunkie
12:32 PM Loetmichel: Tom_L: 1) BTDT. 2) Check 3) Check 4) nope 5) check 6)multiple times 7) nope 8)noooope 9) always.
12:32 PM Loetmichel: rab: only plants at that point
12:35 PM fragalot: I see no issue with #1 :P
12:42 PM Beachbumpete1: Lunchtime! :)
12:49 PM IchGucksLive: hi
01:02 PM IchGucksLive: im off Gn8
01:11 PM hazzy-lab: While we are on the subject of rigging (both the art and the act), the guys we got the mazak from said they had forklifts and it would be know problem to put in on a trailer for us. This is what they ended up doing: https://i.imgur.com/dzzQzDe.jpg
01:11 PM hazzy-lab: Each lift was rated to 4000lbs, with standard length forks, that machine weights almost 1200lbs
01:11 PM hazzy-lab: They lifted it about 5ft in the air like that so we could back the trailer under it
01:11 PM hazzy-lab: The guy in the orange lift couldn't get out because the lift started to tip each time he tried
01:11 PM hazzy-lab: And the idiots were crawling around under it when they got it up higher
01:11 PM Rab: hazzy-lab, 1200 or 12000?
01:12 PM hazzy-lab: oops, forgot a 0, 12,000
01:13 PM gregcnc: geez
01:15 PM Lcvette: Did they damage the machine?
01:17 PM hazzy-lab: No not then, surprisingly, but it fell off the semi trailer when they tried to move it before, hence the beat up enclosures
01:17 PM Lcvette: I would have been pissed watching that go down
01:17 PM Lcvette: Oh
01:17 PM Lcvette: You still bought it?
01:17 PM roycroft: if they agreed to load it i would not have paid them until it was safely loaded
01:18 PM Lcvette: Or bought it because it was a damaged unit
01:18 PM roycroft: "until it's sitting safely on the bed of my trailer it's your machine"
01:19 PM Lcvette: Yeah I was paranoid, i rented a forklift twice the rating of my machine
01:20 PM Lcvette: Turned out it was a bit Overkill
01:20 PM Lcvette: But it made it comfortable
01:20 PM hazzy-lab: We got it for free since they had already paid the costumer they were moving it for originally for a replacement :D
01:21 PM Lcvette: Oh well, can't really be mad your free stuff was moved bad
01:21 PM gregcnc: how bad was the fall/damage?
01:21 PM Lcvette: That's awesome!!!
01:21 PM roycroft: if you know for a fact that the machine weighs what it is reported to weigh, and if you know for a fact that you won't have to do anything funky with the forklift, then getting a forklift rated at just over the machine's capacity is fien
01:22 PM Lcvette: Just get it?
01:22 PM roycroft: but if there is any question at all about either of those two things, overkill is appropriate for sure
01:22 PM Lcvette: Indeed
01:22 PM roycroft: er, just over the machine's weight
01:23 PM roycroft: i was watching one of those heavy hauling dramamentaries the other night
01:23 PM roycroft: one of the australian ones
01:23 PM roycroft: they were moving a machine that was guaranteed to weigh 54 tons
01:23 PM hazzy-lab: gregcnc: Only cosmetic damage, one of the transformer windings was slightly damaged, but not shorted
01:23 PM roycroft: when it came off the ship they found it actually weighed 72 tons
01:23 PM roycroft: and they had to do some scrambling to recamber the trailer, while the ship's captain was getting more and more pissed off
01:25 PM roycroft: there are two contradictory adages involved here
01:25 PM roycroft: 1. the customer is always right
01:25 PM roycroft: 2. never overestimate the intelligence of the customer
01:25 PM hazzy-lab: I found footage of them crawling under the mazak: https://youtu.be/iWmbT1weIHE?t=155
01:27 PM holzjunkie: Loetmichel: still here???
01:27 PM Loetmichel: yes
01:28 PM holzjunkie: Loetmichel: you´ve a little bit of time and brain for me?
01:28 PM hazzy-lab: Back at the shop moving it was trivial with the 1000lbs cap lift: https://i.imgur.com/4idDGpA.jpg
01:28 PM hazzy-lab: (I did do a break jot on the lift first though, just to be safe)
01:28 PM hazzy-lab: brake*
01:30 PM roycroft: hazzy-lab: "sketchy" is the most polite word i can come up with to describe that loading operation
01:36 PM Loetmichel: holzjunkie:yes
01:36 PM holzjunkie: did anyone have an example file (hal and ini) for an 7i80 with an 7i77
01:38 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: you cant think of everything sometimes... rigged up a 100" TV some time ago... http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17073&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
01:38 PM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17076&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
01:39 PM Loetmichel: ... worked well for a day... then: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17079&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
01:39 PM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17082&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
01:39 PM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=17085&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
01:39 PM Loetmichel: note that the pulleys held. the load bearing points ripped out the chassis... :-(
01:48 PM roycroft: loetmichel: if you need to lift a 6 ton machine and you know ahead of time that you're going to need to do so, you don't bring 2 2 ton fork lifts to the job
01:49 PM roycroft: you've had the luxury of being able to think about it ahead of time
01:49 PM roycroft: that was either laziness or cheapness
01:49 PM roycroft: likely both
01:49 PM Loetmichel: roycroft: thats right
01:49 PM holzjunkie: bye folks
01:49 PM roycroft: if you don't have the equipment to do it safely and are unwilling to rent the equipment you do not tell the buyer "we will load it for you"
01:50 PM Loetmichel: indeed
01:50 PM roycroft: you tell the buyer "we don't have the equipment to load it for you"
01:50 PM roycroft: and the buyer rents the necessary equipment
01:50 PM roycroft: and uses the cost of renting it as a negotiating point when purchasing the equipment
01:54 PM Loetmichel: ... and thats exactly why some dont sell it that way
01:56 PM hazzy-lab: We had the equipment to move it properly, if that had not said they had the equipment we would have brought our lift
01:58 PM miss0r: hazzy-lab: yes, that is a nice way to remove a hornets nest, ha? :D
02:04 PM roycroft: at the end of the day, the machine was loaded successfully
02:04 PM roycroft: and the operation provided some entertainment
02:04 PM roycroft: i would not have intentionally risked injury for the sake of entertainment
02:05 PM roycroft: but in retrospect it all worked out
03:01 PM andypugh: I don’t suppose anyone has Chris Morley’s phone number?
03:02 PM cradek: I don't
03:04 PM JT-Shop: I have his email but no number
03:06 PM andypugh: I guess I could use mine. The courier company wouldn’t know.
03:06 PM andypugh: (Sending him a package of STMBL drives)
03:22 PM MrHindsight: https://youtu.be/GixqvcuSNCA?t=14s vertical lathe
03:23 PM MrHindsight: for parts that need to be turned sideways
03:26 PM MrHindsight: inverted vertical lathe https://youtu.be/P5Odq2cESVU?t=57s
03:26 PM MrHindsight: for parts that need to be turned sideways and upside down
03:26 PM fragalot_: lol
03:27 PM fragalot_: very niche
03:27 PM fragalot_: that inverted one I can understand
03:27 PM fragalot_: well, the "normal" horizontal chuck in the second video
03:27 PM fragalot_: makes setup easier for the operator
03:28 PM MrHindsight: the first one features self chip clearing
03:28 PM MrHindsight: as you can see in the second video the chips build up on the parts
03:28 PM fragalot_: true, air blast is expensive to run
03:29 PM MrHindsight: OTOH, the chips stay neatly in the part for easy removal by the operator..
03:29 PM fragalot_: lol
03:29 PM MrHindsight: in the first video it just gets tossed all over the inside of the lathe
03:30 PM fragalot_: that's why you buy the double auger option
03:30 PM fragalot_: and the monkey to fix the damn thing every other month
03:31 PM MrHindsight: how were train wheels made before the inverted vertical lathe was developed?
03:31 PM MrHindsight: did the manufacturers suffer with using inferior horizontal lathes?
03:31 PM fragalot_: you keep saying inverted
03:32 PM fragalot_: to me it looks more like a standard vertical lathe when the chuck is on the bottom
03:32 PM fragalot_: but yes, they did. you needed 5 men to lift it into the chuck, and 2 to align it
03:32 PM MrHindsight: potato potato
03:32 PM fragalot_: :P
03:34 PM fragalot_: MrHindsight: I have a process optimisation suggestion for the 2nd video
03:34 PM fragalot_: at 3:50
03:36 PM MrHindsight: chip collection bin accessory?
03:36 PM fragalot_: indeed
03:37 PM MrHindsight: I bet they just move the machine when the pile reaches the door
03:37 PM fragalot_: lol
03:37 PM XXCoder: free chips handout days ;)
03:37 PM XXCoder: bet some would grab some because can melt em into metal again at home lol
03:38 PM fragalot_: not really worth it
03:39 PM MrHindsight: union rules require than an intern be used to shovel the floor
03:40 PM XXCoder: ?
03:41 PM fragalot_: lol
03:51 PM miss0r: Alright. I have now replaced two relays in the EDM. It took a while, and those two were very very accessible compared to the three I need to change next (replacing the sockets, by soldering in new ones)
03:52 PM miss0r: The next ones I have to replace only have 12-15mm extra wire, hardly allowing me to see them, when I pull them out the chassis its mounted in :/
03:52 PM miss0r: I'll need to come up with something, or this will end in disaster
03:52 PM XXCoder: happy solstice day
03:53 PM miss0r: hehe. I think I will wait for tomorrow to start with that. I'll need a clear mind
03:53 PM miss0r: 2 secs, I'll snap a picture to descripe what I am talking about...
03:54 PM andypugh: Vertical lathes are fairly standard for very large and heavy parts that are not very long. Like large gears.
03:54 PM andypugh: This one is quite large: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsShaYwSIdA
03:54 PM XXCoder: crazy.
03:54 PM XXCoder: 120 tons.
03:55 PM XXCoder: I wonder how they centered it
03:55 PM andypugh: Where my dad used to work they had stretched one by moving the columns. It couldn’t reach the middle and the scale was inaccurate, but they could work round that.
03:55 PM gloops: they had quite a few at the old MOD place at sheffield, was over 20 years ago when i went in there though
03:56 PM andypugh: XXCoder: have you seen this 23m gear wheel? https://goo.gl/images/s3vpWi
03:57 PM andypugh: The only thing to give a real sense of scale are the 5’ cabinets at the back…
03:57 PM miss0r: https://imgur.com/a/xG3gAhA on the right you can see I have replaced two relays - where one of them already had the right socket. On the left(held in my hand) are three sockets I need to replace to a MT3 type(11-pin circular one). and the one I am holding is stretched all the way out.
03:57 PM Tom_L: on a standard 118° drill bit, is there a standard percentage in calculating the tip flat against the drill diameter?
03:57 PM Tom_L: the flat will vary with the diameter of the drill but i wondered if there was a standard way to calcualte it
03:57 PM andypugh: Tom_L: No because it depends on the web thickness. It will even get bigger as you grind further up the drill.
03:58 PM miss0r: The three on the left is mounted on a U-profile, where the big caps are mounted on the left side, on the far side theres some PCB and inside of it theres alot of wires and some big power resistors; i.e. I won't be able to just take the profile out
03:58 PM Tom_L: what about when they grind a new set of drills?
03:58 PM Tom_L: the web isn't consistent up the full shank of the drill?
03:58 PM miss0r: tom_L: what about grinding it with center cutters? :D
03:59 PM miss0r: Thats the way 'aha aha' I like it.
03:59 PM miss0r: Okay, no more fumes for me. I'll hit the sack. See you around
03:59 PM andypugh: Tom_L: No, often the web seems to get thicker towards the shank for stiffness. (I am talking about large Morse drills)
03:59 PM Tom_L: i'm working on an exercise to calculate the full depth of a drill but measuring off the drill tip
04:00 PM Tom_L: +- .005"
04:00 PM Tom_L: i understand what you mean
04:00 PM Tom_L: for instance when you set a drill in lcnc you measure from the tip but the blueprint calls out a full depth for the drill
04:01 PM Tom_L: i'm trying to find a sound way to calculate that
04:01 PM JT-Shop: use my calculator
04:01 PM Tom_L: google says multiply the drill diameter * .3
04:01 PM Tom_L: for the actual tip depth
04:01 PM Tom_L: and it's pretty close but not in tolerance
04:01 PM JT-Shop: depends on the tip angle
04:01 PM Tom_L: 118 degg
04:03 PM JT-Shop: that's pretty close
04:03 PM Tom_L: yeah but depending on the drill it's out the +- .005" tolerance
04:04 PM Tom_L: i was just trying to find a way to make it more accurate
04:04 PM Tom_L: that's why i wondered if there was a certain percentage of tip to drill diameter ratio
04:05 PM Tom_L: and not all drills are ground the same either
04:05 PM Tom_L: i think google calculates to a point disregarding the tip flat
04:07 PM Tom_L: .280 - .290 would be a little more realistic i think
04:07 PM JT-Shop: looking at my split point with the microscope and they look like they come to a point
04:10 PM Tom_L: for one thing if you're gonna follow it with a reamer in a blind hole it would be good to know where to stop the reamer
04:11 PM MrHindsight: andypugh: https://techxplore.com/news/2018-06-ford-exoskeleton-company-strain-overhead.html can you take them home on the weekends?
04:11 PM Tom_L: i rely on cad for it but my kid is going to a national competetion where they must calculate it all by hand
04:11 PM Tom_L: so we're going over a few things here
04:12 PM MrHindsight: Tesla always seems to be in the news but Ford has real tech news
04:14 PM andypugh: Ford just bought a railway station.
04:18 PM lcvette-pc: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/media/kunena/attachments/21571/servo_drive_position_control.jpg
04:18 PM lcvette-pc: I made a drive tuning cheat sheet
04:19 PM andypugh: Bck in a bit. The KiCAD disc image appears to have crashed my Mac Finder
04:20 PM lcvette-pc: do you guys think i can use the halscope feed back channel of the encoder to tune the drive settings?
04:30 PM pcw_mesa: maybe... not sure how you would get the initial encoder and step position to match but it might just work if they both start at 0
04:32 PM lcvette_: im going into the hal file to edit it now and see what i can do to log the encoder and go back open loop with my notes from you guys yesterday
04:33 PM lcvette_: so i guess we will see what it looks like shortly hopefully
04:33 PM pcw_mesa: don't the drives have a tuning program?
04:39 PM tjb1_: Should I tie the grounds of two different power supplies together that have the same main supply?
04:40 PM lcvette_: pcw_mesa: not that ive found
04:40 PM lcvette_: there is a strange little thing i read about but im not even certain i understand how to use it
04:40 PM lcvette_: there is not information about it really
04:41 PM MrHindsight: tjb1_: it depends, it's not always that simple
04:41 PM lcvette_: its just in the settings index
04:42 PM pcw_mesa: Kind of surprising they don't have some kind of tuning app
04:42 PM lcvette_: i agree
04:42 PM tjb1_: MrHindsight: whats the secret?
04:42 PM lcvette_: i asked the mfg and they said there is not one
04:43 PM MrHindsight: tjb1_: knowing all the details
04:43 PM tjb1_: What details
04:43 PM MrHindsight: yes
04:48 PM MrHindsight: unless that makes smoke come out of the supplies, then NO
04:51 PM lcvette_: pcw_mesa: should I run the PID the way i tuned it for the stepgen feedback?
04:52 PM pcw_mesa: Yes stepgen tuning is trivial P=1000 FF1=1 FF2= seconds from read to write (I think that was .00037 in your case)
04:53 PM lcvette_: yeah
04:53 PM lcvette_: ok,
04:53 PM lcvette_: good deal
04:53 PM pcw_mesa: (P = 1/servo-thread-period)
04:59 PM Deejay: gn8
05:08 PM lcvette_: http://i.imgur.com/mRo4zaI.png
05:09 PM lcvette_: not sure if that says anything
05:11 PM lcvette_: is there a way to plot the following error of the actual encoder while in open loop?
05:17 PM lcvette_: pcw_mesa: what would the hal sourcery to handle showing the f-error of the encoder while still in stepgen mode look like?
05:18 PM pcw_mesa: you need to subtract in hal
05:19 PM lcvette_: https://pastebin.com/ZKgayjN5
05:19 PM gloops: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CNC-Router-rotary-axis-ISEL/292604920498?
05:20 PM gloops: although dont think there is anyone here from the uk near that
05:20 PM gloops: or who would want it heh
05:20 PM Tom_L: some woodpecker making spindles
05:22 PM andypugh: £11.50 is a reasonable price for the chuck…
05:23 PM gloops: yes, you wouldnt want to collect the bits and make that for ÂŁ11.50
05:26 PM gloops: if you wanted one
05:28 PM pcw_mesa: lcvette_ If you set motions feedback to come from the encoder but the stepgens feedback from the stepgen, the following error will give you a plot of the stepgens command vs the actual position
05:30 PM lcvette_: oh oh oh.... in the halscope
05:30 PM lcvette_: ?
05:32 PM andypugh: pcw_home: Isn’t the stepgen feedback an output rather than input? Or am I misunderstanding?
05:34 PM lcvette_: yeah im lost
05:34 PM pcw_mesa: yes its an output (just like encoder position)
05:34 PM lcvette_: im back in the hal
05:34 PM lcvette_: trying to decipher]
05:35 PM pcw_mesa: you would need a different net name to connect the encoder feedback to motion
05:35 PM lcvette_: net x-pos-fb => axis.0.motor-pos-fb
05:35 PM lcvette_: this motion
05:35 PM pcw_mesa: yes
05:35 PM lcvette_: make this the encoder
05:36 PM lcvette_: net x-pos-fb => axis.0.encoder.01.position
05:37 PM pcw_mesa: Sure but then you have to use another net name to convey the stepgen feedback to the PID
05:38 PM pcw_mesa: (I wish hal had anonymous nets so you could just link pins)
05:38 PM lcvette_: net x-encpos-fb => axis.0.encoder.01.position
05:39 PM lcvette_: can i make it up?
05:39 PM lcvette_: like that?
05:39 PM pcw_mesa: yep net names are arbitrary (just chosen for readbility)
05:39 PM lcvette_: ok.. let me edit these up and give it a whirl
05:40 PM lcvette_: exciting!!!!
05:44 PM pcw_mesa: This does depend on the encoder and stepgen keeping in sync but Im pretty sure the both start at 0
05:46 PM lcvette_: http://i.imgur.com/wleRg8t.png
05:46 PM lcvette_: debug
05:48 PM lcvette_: https://pastebin.com/szJcs8Rj
05:48 PM lcvette_: hal
05:48 PM pcw_mesa: you can make up net names but not pin names
05:49 PM lcvette_: i must have misunderstood
05:51 PM lcvette_: wait
05:51 PM lcvette_: maybe i was unclear
05:52 PM lcvette_: i took a graph of the stepgen command and encoder position
05:52 PM lcvette_: http://i.imgur.com/mRo4zaI.png
05:52 PM lcvette_: that was this one
05:52 PM lcvette_: i was wondering if i could get the following error
05:53 PM lcvette_: the squigley lines
05:54 PM pcw_mesa: umm your encoder scale is way off
05:57 PM pcw_mesa: looks like ~ factor of 3
05:58 PM lcvette_: ahhh
05:58 PM lcvette_: thats the electronic gear ratio
05:59 PM pcw_mesa: if you expect thsi to work at all the encoder scaling must be correct
05:59 PM lcvette_: thats what i was asking yesterday about
06:00 PM lcvette_: the scaling is correct for the machine
06:00 PM pcw_mesa: It cannot be
06:00 PM lcvette_: the drives have a built in electronic gear ratio
06:01 PM lcvette_: there is a formula used to calculate the numbers to enter for the two settings
06:01 PM lcvette_: it can be turned off though
06:01 PM lcvette_: which would mean that the drive would look for 20,000 ppr
06:02 PM pcw_mesa: thats fine, it just needs to be factored in (and its clear that its not)
06:02 PM lcvette_: it is factored in
06:03 PM lcvette_: not for feedback
06:03 PM pcw_mesa: in any case the encoder scaling is wrong
06:04 PM pcw_mesa: if it does not match the commanded position scale wise it cannot be used for feedback
06:05 PM lcvette_: bear in mind when im in feedback mode the scale changes
06:05 PM lcvette_: right now its at 1000
06:05 PM lcvette_: in feedback mode it is changed to 3333.33
06:05 PM gregcnc: i thought you tried without the gearing in the drive?
06:05 PM lcvette_: so i will turn it off
06:08 PM pcw_mesa: The encoder scale should remain he same regardless of mode (unless you change the drive settings)
06:08 PM pcw_mesa: s/he/the/
06:09 PM lcvette_: you are right
06:09 PM lcvette_: actually no
06:09 PM lcvette_: i did not change the drive settings
06:09 PM lcvette_: it remained in electronic gear mode
06:10 PM lcvette_: the scale had to be changed
06:10 PM lcvette_: from 1000 to 3333.33
06:10 PM lcvette_: when going from stepgen to feedback
06:10 PM lcvette_: with no drive changes
06:10 PM pcw_mesa: NO
06:11 PM lcvette_: I am only reporting what happened
06:11 PM lcvette_: i think is was gregcnc who was on when it did
06:11 PM pcw_mesa: If the drive output 3333.33 counts per mm it should always output 3333.33 counts per mm regardless of any hal changes
06:11 PM lcvette_: the output yes
06:12 PM lcvette_: but it wasn't always going by the output
06:12 PM lcvette_: of the motor encoder
06:12 PM pcw_mesa: The encoder scale is completely independent of the step scale
06:14 PM lcvette_: ah
06:14 PM lcvette_: that may be my problem
06:14 PM pcw_mesa: And should not be changed unless you change the drives electronic gearing or its encoder output
06:14 PM pcw_mesa: of its encoder output
06:16 PM lcvette_: would it be best to just turn off the EG in the drive so both are the same in the drive and in linux?
06:16 PM pcw_mesa: in any case at 3333.33 encoder scale, the encoder and commanded position should match
06:17 PM pcw_mesa: you dont need to because linuxcnc can scale either independently (unless there is some speed issue with the geared output)
06:17 PM lcvette_: that was my concern
06:17 PM lcvette_: one of them
06:18 PM lcvette_: but im about to run another halscope now that the scaling is resolved
06:18 PM lcvette_: standby for graph
06:22 PM lcvette_: http://i.imgur.com/DHLdrXK.png
06:22 PM lcvette_: more better
06:24 PM pcw_mesa: that may at least allow you to tune the drive some
06:24 PM andypugh: The F-error doesn’t seem to correlate to the difference between the lines
06:25 PM andypugh: I haven’t been really following today, so don’t know if that is to be expected
06:25 PM pcw_mesa: its not wired right it hal for that to work
06:25 PM andypugh: OK
06:25 PM lcvette_: the f-error is from the stepgen
06:25 PM lcvette_: that was my initial question
06:25 PM lcvette_: lol
06:26 PM andypugh: can you plot pid.0.error?
06:26 PM pcw_mesa: you would need to wire the encoder feedback to motions pin to see the ferror
06:26 PM lcvette_: if i could plot the actual encoder f-error
06:27 PM lcvette_: ok
06:27 PM pcw_mesa: yes as i mentioned above, this is possible but you need to wire stepgen feedback to the PID and encoder feedback to motion
06:27 PM andypugh: pid.N.error is the difference between the command and feedback there. But I am not sure which error you are interested in.
06:28 PM lcvette_: the encoder error
06:28 PM pcw_mesa: Wha we are dong now is generating a nearly perfect step/dir profile and seeing what the drive is doing (so the PID error is ~0)
06:29 PM lcvette_: correct, we have a near perfect example to compare what bthe drive is doing in comparison and make changes to
06:29 PM pcw_mesa: the actual drive seem to lag many 10s of ms behind the step/dir command
06:29 PM lcvette_: and in the end maybe have it close enough to put back into closed loop and be able to tune it
06:30 PM andypugh: The “sum2” component can be used to subtract one number from another (by setting the gain pin to -1)
06:31 PM lcvette_: im reading where to put the wires for the encoder
06:32 PM lcvette_: motions
06:32 PM pcw_mesa: or just replace
06:32 PM pcw_mesa: net x-pos-fb => axis.0.motor-pos-fb
06:32 PM pcw_mesa: net x-encpos-fb => axis.0.motor-pos-fb
06:33 PM lcvette_: so no rewiring
06:34 PM pcw_mesa: then the ferror will be the difference between the command and the encoder feedback
06:34 PM pcw_mesa: well that is re-wiring...
06:34 PM lcvette_: i was about in my control cabinet
06:35 PM lcvette_: so replace those?
06:36 PM pcw_mesa: so the stepgen is left alone but ferror is now calculated from encoder position rather than stepgen position
06:39 PM lcvette_: i thought it couldn't do that?
06:39 PM lcvette_: thats what caused a debug?
06:39 PM lcvette_: oh because i didn't turn it off
06:41 PM lcvette_: https://pastebin.com/xg8x6hBH
06:41 PM lcvette_: like so
06:45 PM lcvette_: I must not be following
06:45 PM lcvette_: that gave the same debug as before
06:47 PM pcw_mesa: net x-encpos-fb => axis.0.motor-pos-fb
06:48 PM lcvette_: yup i think im understanding now
06:48 PM lcvette_: it brings connects net x-encpos-fb <= hm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.position
06:49 PM lcvette_: this
06:49 PM lcvette_: ?
06:49 PM lcvette_: calls for it
06:49 PM lcvette_: connects it links it whatever
06:49 PM lcvette_: because of the net
06:50 PM lcvette_: some of the hal reading is surfacing
06:50 PM lcvette_: maybe
06:50 PM lcvette_: vaguely
06:50 PM pcw_mesa: yes it ends up linking axis.0.motor-pos-fb to hm2_7i92.0.encoder.01.position
06:50 PM lcvette_: ok im on board and alot just fell into place all of a sudden from my reading
06:52 PM lcvette_: http://i.imgur.com/SShib05.png
06:52 PM lcvette_: says it was already linked?
06:53 PM JT-Shop: HAL does not lie
06:55 PM lcvette_: https://pastebin.com/kz3TmDLy
06:55 PM lcvette_: i believe it
06:55 PM lcvette_: im looking
06:55 PM lcvette_: does it count if its commented out?
07:02 PM lcvette_: i think i found it
07:03 PM lcvette_: nope now machine instantly has following error
07:04 PM pcw_mesa: set the ferrors way up
07:05 PM lcvette_: net x-pos-fb => axis.0.motor-pos-fb
07:06 PM lcvette_: had to comment that out in the encoder feedback signals/setup
07:06 PM lcvette_: to get it to load
07:06 PM lcvette_: that was the conflict
07:06 PM lcvette_: seem right?
07:07 PM pcw_mesa: yes
07:08 PM lcvette_: instanbt following error again
07:08 PM lcvette_: with them set at 10 and 1
07:09 PM lcvette_: seems like there is no more stepgen feedback loop
07:09 PM lcvette_: or its not listening to it
07:25 PM lcvette_: problem for tomorrow.. I will read more tonight with my new found understanding of the net word
07:25 PM lcvette_: :)
07:25 PM lcvette_: thanks again Peter and Andy!! I am going to slay this dragon eventually
07:28 PM pcw_mesa: looking at the plot I suspect you need to set the min fe to 10 or so
07:37 PM Lcvette: Min fe?
07:39 PM Lcvette: Ah
07:39 PM Lcvette: What is happening with this config
07:39 PM Lcvette: It's running open loop?
07:39 PM pcw_mesa: If you look at your plot you can see at least 7mm difference between commanded and encoder position (and about 25 ms delay)
07:41 PM pcw_mesa: ist open loop as far as encoder feedback goes. The stepgen feedback should still be connected
07:43 PM pcw_mesa: x-pos-fb => pid.x.feedback
07:43 PM pcw_mesa: net x-pos-fb <= hm2_7i92.0.stepgen.00.position-fb
07:43 PM pcw_mesa: are the statements that close the stepgen loop
07:44 PM pcw_mesa: ( left the "net" off the first statement )
07:44 PM Lcvette: Gotcha...
07:45 PM Lcvette: Ok, i have a game plan for the morning then, i will be ready to make my minferrp
07:45 PM Lcvette: Min ferror changes to 10 and ferror to?
07:45 PM pcw_mesa: set them both large since they are not helping here (just not so large that a runaway is allowed)
07:46 PM pcw_mesa: say 10 and 30
07:46 PM Lcvette: Ok
07:47 PM Lcvette: Perfect
07:47 PM pcw_mesa: but if the drive take 25 ms to respond, some serious drive adjustments are in order
07:47 PM Lcvette: Yeah, that is concerning
07:48 PM Lcvette: I may try eliminating the eg
07:48 PM Lcvette: Just to relive anything that may show it down
07:48 PM Lcvette: Slow!
07:49 PM pcw_mesa: 20000 counts per turn or mm?
07:49 PM Lcvette: Turn
07:50 PM Lcvette: 6mm screws
07:51 PM pcw_mesa: Isnt that what you have now? (20000/6 =3333.333 counts/mm)
07:51 PM Lcvette: For encoder scale
07:51 PM Lcvette: Streetscape is 1000
07:51 PM Lcvette: Stepscale
07:52 PM pcw_mesa: Any I think you need to figure out what s going on with your drives
07:52 PM pcw_mesa: anyway
07:53 PM pcw_mesa: bbl Dinner time!
07:53 PM Lcvette: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/media/kunena/attachments/21571/servo_drive_position_control.jpg
07:54 PM Lcvette: I made that earlier
07:55 PM Lcvette: Me to
07:55 PM Lcvette: Thanks Peter!
10:01 PM Isleape1 is now known as Isleape
10:34 PM Lcvette: pcw_mesa: i contacted the drive manufacturer and they suggested increasing setting P102 from 420 to 900 to increase drive response
10:34 PM Lcvette: https://forum.linuxcnc.org/media/kunena/attachments/21571/servo_drive_position_control.jpg
10:35 PM Lcvette: I'll try that first thing and see if it brings the commanded and fb lines closer
10:53 PM bob is now known as Guest18466
10:54 PM Guest18466: Hi, does anyone know if the 0-10V spindle output of the Db25 1205 board is opto isolated?
10:55 PM Guest18466: It seems weired to me to connect the GND of the 0-10V to the GND of a separate VFD.
10:56 PM Tom_L: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/automation-technology-products/123275-keling-db25-breakout-board-problem.html
10:57 PM jesseg: I see what you mean about weird. I highly doubt its isolated. However, it may be referenced to earth ground.
10:57 PM jesseg: Or maybe it's floating.
10:58 PM Guest18466: Wie functioniert dass denn hier?
10:59 PM Guest18466: I checked with a multimeter and it seems the Analog GND of the 0-10V output is connected to the digital ground of the board
11:20 PM unterhausen: does debian graphical installer require a network connection?
11:23 PM unterhausen: oh, I see, there is a bug report.
11:25 PM unterhausen: heh, no fix, and the next to last email in the bug report thread is a phishing spam
11:40 PM nallar is now known as Ross
11:46 PM unterhausen: I suppose I had to wire up the network eventually anyway