#linuxcnc Logs
Jun 17 2018
#linuxcnc Calendar
12:52 AM tjb1: status of arduino thc - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aiE2iuzoKU
01:24 AM Daxxin: got 3 stepper nema17 ''rated voltage 2V'' its ok to power with 12V psu _
01:25 AM Daxxin: ?
01:37 AM Lcvette: hazzy-dev: you around?
01:50 AM IchGucksLive: hi all from germany
01:50 AM IchGucksLive: Daxxin_, still online
01:51 AM IchGucksLive: tjb1, the arduino is mot emi save you may run in trouble
01:52 AM Daxxin_: hi Ich
01:52 AM IchGucksLive: Daxxin_, 12V is ok as we use %times the Stepepr Voltige value as standard
01:52 AM IchGucksLive: Daxxin_, if you want speed you need 24
01:53 AM Daxxin_: 24v in full speed mode?
01:53 AM IchGucksLive: Daxxin_, if you want the best out of it go for 36V and a 3Axis TB6560 board modified to 400mHz
01:53 AM Daxxin_: what mean 400Mhz mod?
01:54 AM Daxxin_: millihz
01:54 AM IchGucksLive: this will give you a save rate of 50.000steoos per secnd
01:54 AM IchGucksLive: Daxxin_, the boards come with a 1000pf chip on side
01:54 AM IchGucksLive: this gives you 120Mhz
01:55 AM Daxxin_: only replacing caps you get 400mhz?
01:55 AM IchGucksLive: if you go for a 150pf Capacitor on the tb6560 you reatch 400mhz the max the system can take
01:56 AM IchGucksLive: it is a boost like VW to Ferrari
01:56 AM IchGucksLive: you need a good hand and tiny solderiron
01:56 AM IchGucksLive: its 1206 chip cap
01:57 AM IchGucksLive: on a 3D printer it is 450mm/sec
01:57 AM IchGucksLive: insted of 80
01:57 AM Daxxin_: do you think the axle shafts of WV can hold ferrari engine torque? :)
01:57 AM IchGucksLive: ofcause
01:58 AM IchGucksLive: some manged to put a 1000Hp lambourgii inside a jetta
01:58 AM Daxxin_: i will check the schematic of this board to find them
01:59 AM Daxxin_: lamborghini inside jetta?
01:59 AM IchGucksLive: Daxxin_, i make around of 100Mashines with this board a jear http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~tom-itx/irc/logs/%23linuxcnc/2018-06-17.html
01:59 AM Daxxin_: crazy thing
01:59 AM IchGucksLive: Daxxin_, this is my YT channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmwhCL92ZQRSVqFe3jGwJSQ/videos
01:59 AM Daxxin_: thats a linuxcnc log
02:00 AM IchGucksLive: SORRY http://tv-profi-gmbh.de/masch_baumh_k.jpg
02:00 AM IchGucksLive: this are the tiny education mashines
02:01 AM Daxxin_: i've check but can't understand german
02:01 AM IchGucksLive: Daxxin_, the mashine workconfiguration https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INaAupQhyto
02:01 AM IchGucksLive: Daxxin_, i make English 2
02:01 AM Daxxin_: great thumbs up
02:02 AM IchGucksLive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXYliAOGsMM the mashine itself with RPM PWM contrroler
02:03 AM IchGucksLive: ok im off 2 garden as sun comes up
02:03 AM Daxxin_: ok thanks
02:03 AM IchGucksLive: Daxxin_, im always here at around 7pm Berlin time
02:03 AM Daxxin_: bye for now
02:03 AM Daxxin_: ok
02:23 AM fragalot: Hey
02:38 AM Deejay: moin
02:59 AM miss0r: goodmorning
03:42 AM XXCoder: yo
03:58 AM miss0r: still so much moving around to do >.<
04:22 AM miss0r: urgh! I mosquito caught me on the back, right where the left strap of my overalls move around alot
04:22 AM miss0r: FFFF
04:24 AM XXCoder: ugh
04:25 AM miss0r: and I am one of those poor fellahs that get huge mosquito bites, thats annoying me alot... and for the time being it feels like i'm living in a swamp
04:32 AM miss0r: syyl: Are you very familiar with the Erowa clamping system?
04:32 AM syyl: for electrodes/palett changers?
04:32 AM miss0r: yeah
04:33 AM syyl: we have it on the ram-edm, the graphite mill and one of the vmcs for moldmaking
04:34 AM miss0r: Well, I just bought a Charmilles Eleroda E110 die sinker. and it comes with a metric shitton of Erowa electrode holders, and two different types of erowa tool clamps(the ones the electrode holders can be held by). But I cannot for the life of me figure out how to attach it to the EDM. I'm thinking perhaps something is missing
04:35 AM miss0r: It also comes with a complete 3R system. but with the amount of erowa electrode holders, I would much rather have that in service.
04:35 AM miss0r: Do you have any idea what such a clamp would look like on a EDM like this?
04:38 AM syyl: you need an erowa-chuck
04:38 AM syyl: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Erowa-fixture-4-jaws-automatic-lathe_60647298266.html
04:39 AM syyl: this gets bolted to the machine and is actuated by air
04:39 AM miss0r: I have a unit that looks exactly like th
04:39 AM miss0r: is
04:39 AM miss0r: but it does not seem to fit :]
04:39 AM syyl: maybe they never adapted it to the machine?
04:39 AM syyl: and always used the 3R
04:40 AM miss0r: I guess anything is possible. but there was alot of electrodes also mounted in the erowa system, all of them had been used
04:40 AM syyl: is it the 3R with the 20mm shank?
04:40 AM miss0r: yeah
04:40 AM syyl: the "old" system
04:40 AM miss0r: yep
04:40 AM syyl: we used to use that
04:40 AM syyl: it was not bad
04:41 AM miss0r: I guess I can live with it. but I think I got 60 or 70 25x25mm erowa elecrode holder with it
04:41 AM miss0r: it would be nice to be able to use them as well
04:41 AM syyl: i would look into how to adapt the erowa chuck
04:41 AM syyl: or if something got missing when the machine got sold
04:41 AM syyl: we often cannibalize machines at work before we sell it
04:42 AM miss0r: Indeed. I will call the seller tomorrow.
04:42 AM miss0r: But I think the erowa chuck I have may not be intented for this EDM
04:42 AM miss0r: This EDM does not have any air on it. at all.
04:42 AM miss0r: So perhaps it had one of those manual actuated ones
04:42 AM miss0r: with the little lever protruding through the side
04:42 AM syyl: hmm
04:43 AM syyl: maybe they used the pneumatic chuck on a mill
04:43 AM syyl: to hold the electrodes for machining
04:43 AM miss0r: Quite possible
04:43 AM syyl: just looked
04:43 AM syyl: the e110 is a nice machine :D
04:43 AM syyl: compact, i wouldnt mind that machine :D
04:43 AM miss0r: I hope so. ;)
04:44 AM miss0r: with the isopulse P25 generator on it
04:44 AM miss0r: not the old RC one
04:44 AM syyl: nice
04:44 AM miss0r: Now I just have to learn how to use it :] good thing it came with alot of manuals
04:45 AM syyl: perfect!
04:45 AM syyl: that seems to be common with edms
04:45 AM syyl: the manuals and documentation is almost all the time very comlpete
04:45 AM syyl: a friend bought a tiny agie edm
04:45 AM syyl: and it came with all the manuall/documentation/generatorsettings
04:46 AM syyl: and training manuals, sample parts, ...
04:46 AM miss0r: nice
04:46 AM miss0r: I think it all is here. it also came with two spare set of gasgets
04:46 AM miss0r: for the door & the bevels for the quill ect
04:47 AM miss0r: also; I love how big the DRO is on this thing :]
04:47 AM miss0r: well, love might be a strong word - you have seen how small my shop is
04:51 AM syyl: lol :D
04:52 AM miss0r: syyl: That is the issue. I bought this machine to use(of course) but also to learn to run one. When you are out buying equipment you know nothing about, its easy to miss something
05:04 AM fragalot: Hey
05:06 AM miss0r: hello
05:13 AM fragalot: syyl: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Rym7iAfCVBxruft16 Progress.
05:13 AM syyl: oh nice
05:13 AM syyl: you got someone with a deckel NC :D
05:14 AM fragalot: multiple deckel NC's :D
05:14 AM syyl: haha jeah just saw there is another one
05:14 AM syyl: love the fliphead machines
05:14 AM fragalot: really pleasant machine to work with
05:14 AM syyl: i ran a fp2nc for long time
05:15 AM syyl: looking good!
05:15 AM fragalot: indeed - column has been stripped of the bodyfiller already and has a coat of what I thought was light grey but is actually twilight sparkly silver
05:15 AM fragalot: hoping that will tone down when it's dry, lol
05:16 AM syyl: sparkly!
05:16 AM syyl: :D
05:16 AM syyl: haha
05:17 AM fragalot: probably next week will be gib time
05:19 AM RyanS: I think I need to shim my mill's column, I wonder if a tailstock test bar will work to dial it in
05:20 AM fragalot: RyanS: normally you'd just put a large square on the table & dial it in whilst moving the head up & down
05:21 AM RyanS: i mean put the test bar in the spindle. those cylindrical squares are expensive
05:22 AM fragalot: you can use a good quality standard square
05:22 AM fragalot: the test bar in the spindle will be difficult to read as it could be moving in any direction & your dial indicator will move
05:22 AM fragalot: because you can go off-center
05:25 AM RyanS: hmm, it isn't going to be easy, hoist head, loosn bolts, shim, repeat 3 times
05:25 AM fragalot: yup
05:26 AM RyanS: steel shim stock?
05:27 AM fragalot: an alternative method is to remove the column entirely, put in 4 lifting grub screws so you can level it, and put it back on, get it roughed in, and then put the head back with a layer of filled epoxy
05:27 AM fragalot: obviously tramming it in one last time
05:27 AM fragalot: preferably BEFORE the epoxy has set :D
05:28 AM RyanS: sounds painful
05:29 AM RyanS: why not just grub screw it and skip the epoxy
05:29 AM fragalot: because you want a large bearing surface
05:30 AM fragalot: you could skip the grub screws & use compressable washers
05:30 AM fragalot: or copper wire
05:31 AM fragalot: loosen bolts, lift column, slide in pieces of copper wire & some foam to create a barrier for the epoxy
05:31 AM fragalot: inject epoxy & panic whilst you square it up
05:31 AM fragalot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7Qs-J2swIc
05:32 AM RyanS: the grub screws sound safer
05:34 AM fragalot: y'know what
05:35 AM fragalot: I never thought about using the head of the mill to lift the column like syyl did >.< GENIOUS
05:35 AM syyl: :D
05:35 AM syyl: i hate lifting stuff ;)
05:36 AM RyanS: hmmmmmm, I would be concerned about the ways
05:36 AM fragalot: you really shouldn't be
05:36 AM syyl: i am generally very concerned with overstressing parts/ways/connections
05:37 AM syyl: ;)
05:37 AM fragalot: well yeah, but lifting that column like that isn't going to do that:P
05:38 AM fragalot: apparently that epoxy is not available outside of germany tbw
05:38 AM fragalot: btw*
05:38 AM fragalot: I contacted them after I saw your video on it and they basically told me to get someone in germany to forward it to me because they wouldn't
05:38 AM syyl: interesting
05:38 AM syyl: at least in the us they have a reseller
05:39 AM RyanS: good luck in australia
05:39 AM syyl: :\
05:41 AM RyanS: i mean you can get things somewhere if you pay a lot
05:46 AM RyanS: square blades don't seem thick enough to dial tram with
05:47 AM fragalot: you can get master squares that are 5 or 6mm thick that aren't that expensive
05:47 AM syyl: yeah, thats what i use
05:47 AM syyl: but i am looking into getting a granite squareness standard
05:48 AM fragalot: RyanS: https://www.hogetex.be/meten/haken/hoekhaken/hoekhaak-met-aanslag-rvs-din875-0 <=
05:48 AM syyl: try to get a din875/00 square
05:48 AM fragalot: same site has granite ones that are /00
05:58 AM RyanS: I shudder to think of the price here
06:08 AM RyanS: is that equivalent to BS grade A?
06:37 AM jthornton: morning
06:43 AM Tom_L: morning
06:50 AM fragalot: RyanS: grade 00 is lab grate, 0 is inspection grade, 1 is shop grade
06:51 AM RyanS: will 0 do for tramming ?
06:52 AM jthornton: going to Crumpies's for lunch today https://www.facebook.com/Crumpies11PointSmokehouse/menu/
06:52 AM fragalot: RyanS: in my opinion, certainly;
06:53 AM Tom_L: we must grade them different here
06:54 AM XXCoder: grade 100 is kitchen grante table ;)
06:54 AM fragalot: Tom_L: well for one thing you use inches :D
06:54 AM Tom_L: AA A and B
06:54 AM Tom_L: but it's similar
06:54 AM Tom_L: aa lab, a inspection, b general use
06:54 AM fragalot: yeah
06:54 AM fragalot: likely same dimensions
06:54 AM fragalot: just expressed in different units
06:55 AM Tom_L: .00005, .0001, .0002
06:55 AM RyanS: I think we have two grades 'imported' or 'expensive'
06:56 AM syyl: over here they are
06:56 AM syyl: hmm
06:56 AM syyl: kinda reasonable
06:56 AM syyl: we have a bunch of companies in germany making stone-metrology tools
06:57 AM RyanS: I bought some HSS dies from the uk and it worked out cheaper than buying local, lol
06:57 AM syyl: kinda reasonable at least haha
06:58 AM syyl: 400x250 grade 00 is 600eur
06:58 AM syyl: but thats 3micron square over all
06:58 AM fragalot: flat
06:58 AM fragalot: not square :P
06:58 AM syyl: nope, square
06:58 AM syyl: as its a square :D
06:59 AM * fragalot was talking about surafe plates xD
06:59 AM RyanS: not sure if a granite would survive shipping
06:59 AM syyl: ops
06:59 AM syyl: :D
06:59 AM fragalot: That said- i'm not sure why because the topic was on squares >.>
06:59 AM Tom_L: cause that's just what we do here
07:00 AM syyl: jump topics?
07:01 AM RyanS: i have a piece of kitchen bench granite. useless for height guage?
07:01 AM syyl: hmm
07:01 AM syyl: for layout i would say its ok
07:01 AM fragalot: if you're not worried about how accurate it is
07:01 AM fragalot: but they are visually flat
07:01 AM syyl: for actuall measuring not so much
07:02 AM syyl: i checked a tombstone with a large straightedge
07:02 AM syyl: not much precision going on there, even as they look very flat
07:03 AM Tom_L: RyanS, it's better than using a wood workbench
07:03 AM fragalot: speak for yourwelf
07:03 AM fragalot: yoruself
07:03 AM fragalot: yourself
07:03 AM fragalot: christ
07:03 AM syyl: i used a granite tile for long time
07:03 AM syyl: for layout
07:03 AM fragalot: I've got a scraped wooden workbench
07:03 AM Tom_L: hah, really?
07:03 AM fragalot: granted, it's mostly just because of shifting around heavy objects on it
07:06 AM RyanS: high density foam surface plate lol
07:06 AM syyl: conforming to the work!
07:06 AM fragalot: syyl: air hockey table
07:07 AM fragalot: create an air bearing surface under your surface gauge to make it slide easier
07:11 AM * jthornton has a WW2 Army cast iron surface plate... dunno why
07:12 AM RyanS: changing topics every time I see an American workshop on YouTube or a picture they always have it festooned with a flag. never see it in Europe or Australia
07:13 AM syyl: because we have no wallspace left
07:13 AM fragalot: :D
07:14 AM RyanS: I guess Americans build big workshops and German's can't afford the real-estate
07:14 AM syyl: you wont find that in large shops either
07:14 AM syyl: like industrial shops
07:15 AM syyl: because
07:15 AM syyl: why bother
07:15 AM RyanS: plenty of room in Australia but we just don't tend to do it
07:16 AM syyl: i want a kangaroo :(
07:16 AM RyanS: i'm more the flag burning type
07:16 AM fragalot: syyl: no you don't
07:16 AM fragalot: syyl: you want a wallaby
07:16 AM syyl: eh yes
07:16 AM fragalot: kangaroos are terrifying
07:17 AM syyl: maybe a small one?
07:17 AM fragalot: that's a wallaby :P
07:17 AM RyanS: don't have kangaroos in the suburbs. actually I lie there's a park 10 mins away
07:18 AM syyl: youtube teached me that they are all over
07:18 AM syyl: :D
07:18 AM fragalot: syyl: you shouldn't believe everything you see on youtube, it's full of people.
07:18 AM syyl: :D
07:18 AM jthornton: 90% of youtube videos are just plain crap
07:19 AM RyanS: emus are terrifying, they chase you
07:19 AM fragalot: NO!
07:19 AM fragalot: a bird shat on my RF45's fresh paint job
07:19 AM fragalot: :(
07:19 AM syyl: urgs
07:23 AM jthornton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMpuF3QcMwU
07:25 AM RyanS: syyl how do you find enough time to do videos on machining? I don't have a lot of time in the workshop, so I just make chips
07:27 AM syyl: i stoped social contacts
07:27 AM fragalot: xD
07:27 AM syyl: you laugh.. ;)
07:27 AM RyanS: me too, lol
07:27 AM fragalot: what do you do when you don't have any and still not get anything done because some other lowlife decided to grab your attention with 34 minute long videos of him talking to an inanimate object and posting it to YT
07:28 AM syyl: :D
07:28 AM syyl: but yeah, finding time is not easy
07:28 AM syyl: especially as with filming, everthing takes 3 times as long
07:28 AM fragalot: at least
07:29 AM fragalot: what do you use?
07:29 AM fragalot: camera wise
07:29 AM syyl: a canon dslr
07:29 AM syyl: uhm
07:29 AM syyl: eos700d
07:29 AM syyl: and sometimes an sony cx11 camcorder
07:30 AM fragalot: i've tried using my a7rII but all that taught me is that I don't know what i'm doing when it comes down to video
07:31 AM syyl: sony a7?
07:31 AM fragalot: yes
07:31 AM syyl: i would like that camera :D
07:31 AM syyl: but they are huge expensive
07:31 AM fragalot: they are, but by god the picture quality is AMAZING.
07:31 AM syyl: yeah
07:32 AM syyl: :D
07:32 AM fragalot: the biggest issue I find is the lenses
07:32 AM syyl: i bought the dslr because i thought thats what you have to have
07:32 AM syyl: (and it has a flipout screen)
07:32 AM fragalot: :P
07:32 AM fragalot: the RX100's from sony are quite nice too
07:33 AM rmu: hi
07:33 AM RyanS: I don't machine myself due to disability , I have a machinist helping me 10 hours a week, but I guess sourcing parts and designing is 75% of the work. cnc might help but job setup takes ages anyway
07:33 AM rmu: most important thing is light re. video/photo image quality
07:34 AM fragalot: light & lens
07:34 AM fragalot: having a better sensor helps
07:35 AM rmu: yeah but with DSLRs even crappy "nifty fifty" type lenses are good enough even for HD video
07:35 AM fragalot: especially with the a7rII the dynamic range is so huge that even if the light isn't quite there it's not the end of the world
07:35 AM fragalot: well the nifty fifty is a good quality prime lens, so that's a poor example of a crappy lens
07:35 AM rmu: yeah, but a7r2 is kind of cheating ;)
07:36 AM rmu: the canon 50mm f1.8 is less than 100€ new AFAIK
07:36 AM syyl: love the canon 50mm :D
07:36 AM fragalot: rmu: it's affordable, not crappy. :P
07:36 AM syyl: that and a 24mm is my main lens
07:36 AM rmu: and build quality is crappy, all plastic
07:36 AM syyl: the bajonet is metal
07:36 AM syyl: :)
07:36 AM fragalot: image quality is fine
07:36 AM fragalot: the problem i'm getting with the a7rii in terms of lenses isn't for video
07:36 AM fragalot: they ALL work fine even in 4K
07:37 AM fragalot: but when taking stills, the quality differences show up
07:37 AM rmu: with 45mp, it is quite hard to really take sharp images
07:37 AM RyanS: I saw a video they cut a section out of the part, and synchronizeed the shutter speed so you could watch a boring bar cut
07:38 AM fragalot: rmu: yup, that's why I mostly use primes with mine when possible.. it's the only way i've found to get them actually sharp
07:38 AM RyanS: cool effect
07:38 AM rmu: i have the predecessor the a7r, it is quite challenging to nail focus 100%. and you can find every flaw in a lens if you want ;)
07:38 AM rmu: then again, thou shalt not pixel peep
07:39 AM fragalot: I want the a7rIII :P
07:39 AM rmu: i will geht the a7mk3 when i will be a bit cheaper
07:39 AM fragalot: and an rx100 travel camera
07:40 AM rmu: i got some old minolta rokkor lenses for the pre-autofokus MD mount for the sony
07:41 AM rmu: very nice and very sharp primes
07:42 AM rmu: what do you guys use to prepare videos?
07:42 AM RyanS: i bet lightworks
07:42 AM fragalot: i've got premiere but video isn't my thing
07:43 AM rmu: cinelerra seems to have improved a lot, crashing only about once in 15 minutes (it was mor or less once every couple of minutes)
07:54 AM RyanS: this should do https://www.machines4u.com.au/view/advert/Surface-Machine-Table-for-Measuring-Welding-Cast-Big-5-ton-McKechnie/398259/
09:10 AM diverdude: Is it correctly understood that CNC with parallel to USB cable will not work in linuxCNC?
09:15 AM syyl: rmu - i do my editing with kdenlive
09:15 AM syyl: and mess the audio up with audacity
09:26 AM pcw_home: diverdude: No, USB --> parallel adapters don't work with LinuxCNC
09:30 AM IchGucksLive: hi all
09:30 AM IchGucksLive: diverdude, still online im in germany
09:30 AM tjb1: IchGucksLive: THC AD is doing voltage measurement
09:31 AM IchGucksLive: cool
09:31 AM IchGucksLive: if you get it like proma you can make lots of people happy
09:31 AM tjb1: pcw_home: getting a bit hard to get a computer with a parallel port isnt it?
09:31 AM IchGucksLive: there are so many
09:32 AM IchGucksLive: i get them by the dozens
09:32 AM IchGucksLive: even sets of notebook
09:32 AM tjb1: new or used?
09:32 AM IchGucksLive: i dident ever build on a new one
09:32 AM IchGucksLive: ok i got my black chanels to get them
09:33 AM IchGucksLive: but the esprimos are still allover
09:33 AM IchGucksLive: and the livebooks also
09:33 AM IchGucksLive: with latency below 10k
09:33 AM Tom_L: what editing software do you guys use?
09:33 AM tjb1: for g-code?
09:34 AM Tom_L: no videos
09:34 AM IchGucksLive: Tom_L, for what coding
09:34 AM Tom_L: i've got gobs of txt editors
09:34 AM tjb1: im too ugly for video
09:34 AM IchGucksLive: VDIDMUX with the livebuild
09:35 AM IchGucksLive: just copy the folder and start it
09:35 AM Tom_L: the process is more important than the mug flapping the jaws
09:35 AM tjb1: Tom_L: if you keep an eye on www.humblebundle.com they had Sony Vegas Live for sale a few times
09:35 AM tjb1: sorry, Vegas Pro
09:35 AM IchGucksLive: Tom_L, only cuting
09:35 AM Tom_L: i'm not gonna buy any, just wondered
09:35 AM IchGucksLive: or full resample
09:36 AM tjb1: just do it in one take, no editing required
09:36 AM IchGucksLive: Kdenlive workes quite fast
09:37 AM IchGucksLive: diverdude, here ?
09:38 AM IchGucksLive: main supplyers homepage doesaend load
09:38 AM IchGucksLive: can someone in the USA check http://maedler.de/
09:39 AM Tom_L: not loading
09:39 AM IchGucksLive: Thanks
09:40 AM phipli: Tom_L, got my library working
09:41 AM Tom_L: what fixed it?
09:41 AM IchGucksLive: im off later
09:41 AM phipli: needed this outside the class in the cpp file : int AVR128Display::_timer1_counter;
09:41 AM phipli: and everything had to be static
09:41 AM Tom_L: huh
09:41 AM phipli: because only static variables can be accessed from within a static function
09:42 AM phipli: first run looked like it failed
09:42 AM phipli: then I realised I'd just forgotten to put a delay in my counting loop...
09:42 AM phipli: so it was just doing what I wanted so quickly that it was a blur :)
09:42 AM phipli: whoops :)
09:42 AM Tom_L: not in the isr i hope
09:42 AM phipli: no, in the main loop that increments the number to display
09:43 AM phipli: the test "application"
09:43 AM Tom_L: right
09:57 AM pcw_home: tjb1: actually, no, many brand new motherboards have parallel port, and you can add a parallle port card to any motheboard with a PCI
09:57 AM pcw_home: or pcie slot
09:57 AM pcw_home: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157726
10:16 AM MarcelineVQ: mobos still have the parport pins as well even if they don't include the connector
10:17 AM ktc is now known as Guest5354
10:17 AM MarcelineVQ: so for some people https://i.stack.imgur.com/Bv7Ap.jpg is appropriate, though the pci ones aren't any more expensive than these connectors last I looked
10:18 AM JT-Shop: that might be a good mother board to update my BP mill... I think I have that memory and a case
10:25 AM phipli: Is that regular ram, or a SODIMM?
10:26 AM phipli: it looks small in the picture, but doesn't say in the advert
10:26 AM phipli: http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/J3355B-ITX/index.us.asp
10:26 AM phipli: yeah, that is a laptop ram slot JT-Shop, just so you know
10:29 AM JT-Shop: yea, I have some memory from... some motherboard I forget that used laptop memory
10:51 AM phipli: good good.
10:51 AM phipli: I have some older laptop ram from a NAS box somewhere, and something or - other else from someone at work...
10:52 AM phipli: RAM is so expensive now. Makes me sad :'(
10:55 AM JT-Shop: well nurts I found two sticks of 200 pin so-dimm
11:00 AM JT-Shop: this one might work https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157803
11:00 AM JT-Shop: but where can I get a 6i25 to go in there?
11:01 AM * JT-Shop wanders off to take a nap
11:08 AM gloops: we will tariff our way to cheap RAM dont worry
11:34 AM Roguish: SSD on sale, $21 with promo code 2288 : https://www.frys.com/product/9425721
11:34 AM IchGucksLive: hi all
11:34 AM IchGucksLive: gloops, online
11:35 AM gloops: hi
11:36 AM IchGucksLive: gloops, do you know where this new member last week hs been from
11:36 AM gloops: which new member ichs?
11:37 AM IchGucksLive: doesent matter only asking
11:45 AM gloops: ive not been looking in much this week, i slightly over-ate on tuesday and think i got some sort of stomach bug
11:45 AM gloops: still feel shocking now
11:48 AM IchGucksLive: i got a electronic team this week
11:49 AM IchGucksLive: i think i will make a unipolar test
11:49 AM IchGucksLive: with the old l297
11:49 AM IchGucksLive: bringing 48V to a stepper and using a darlingtonarray
11:50 AM IchGucksLive: seeing against the tb6600
11:50 AM IchGucksLive: oh only 36V
11:58 AM fragalot: hey
12:00 PM gloops: adios
12:00 PM gloops: aloha
12:00 PM hazzy-lab: Roguish: Thats a good deal on that SSD, think I'll get one to replace the 30gb 3.5in HDD i have on the mill
12:01 PM gloops: i see Germany looks set for a new leadership
12:01 PM IchGucksLive: gloops, time to leve for the older ones
12:01 PM gloops: maybe yeah Ichs
12:02 PM IchGucksLive: BUT as everywhere in the world will we get a better one
12:02 PM gloops: i dont know anything about this SeerHoffer, never heard of him
12:02 PM IchGucksLive: gloops, bavarian beer drinking old man
12:02 PM hazzy-lab: Roguish: LOL, 'ultra saver' shipping is more than ground: https://i.imgur.com/1NitYr7.png
12:02 PM gloops: lol
12:03 PM gloops: Bavaria is an old beer drinking place
12:03 PM IchGucksLive: hazzy-dev, like fat free
12:03 PM Rab: Huh, I'm seeing free ground shipping. Maybe it's because there's a local Fry's.
12:04 PM IchGucksLive: gloops, you said you got mashinend ballscrews the size you needed
12:04 PM gloops: yes, 16mm ball screws
12:05 PM IchGucksLive: is this a ebay shop
12:05 PM gloops: cnc motorshop
12:05 PM gloops: if you talk to the owner he will do any maching - cheap
12:06 PM IchGucksLive: got it
12:06 PM gloops: it did take the full 6 weeks for delivery though - no rush
12:07 PM Tom_L: bavarian beer drinking old man... at least you'll know where to find him
12:07 PM Rab: Hmm, same drive available from Amazon for $22.99: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MZ2OWDT
12:07 PM gloops: bavarian beer is banned from the UK anyway
12:08 PM Rab: Amazon isn't charging me state sales tax on that item, so it works out to be about the same. I guess that removes any sense of urgency.
12:08 PM phipli: ?
12:08 PM phipli: gloops, how do you mean?
12:09 PM gloops: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/973672/Wetherspoons-ban-eu-beer-champagne-brexit-news-tim-martin
12:09 PM gloops: wetherspoons has banned EU drinks
12:11 PM phaxx: if I have 0.5mm of backlash with a ball screw driven axis, what's the most likely thing to be fucked here? ball nut?
12:11 PM fragalot: does that include the locally brewed, belgian owned beers?
12:11 PM fragalot: phaxx: ball nut, or the leadscrew bearing is sloppy
12:11 PM gloops: phaxx what machine is this - router?
12:12 PM phaxx: mill, an old Conect metal mill.
12:12 PM phipli: gloops, phew, you just mean spoons is being daft. I'm ok with that.
12:12 PM gloops: 0.5 is an awful lot you know
12:12 PM phaxx: that's why I'm asking. :)
12:12 PM Tom_L: phaxx is there end play in the thrust bearing end?
12:12 PM gloops: yes, check endfloat first
12:13 PM Tom_L: it would likely be the first thing to come loose
12:13 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, is the screw tighten
12:13 PM gloops: and any other mechanical aspects - belts, pulleys, connecters and so on
12:13 PM phaxx: I'm too new to this to know what part you're referring to, sorry. the coupling between the motor and the screw?
12:13 PM phaxx: or coupling between the ball nut and the table?
12:14 PM gloops: both, all that needs ruling out
12:14 PM phaxx: they're all total bastards to get to on this machine, that'll take all day. better get going. :)
12:14 PM phaxx: thanks!
12:14 PM Rab: phaxx, the screw has two effective points of contact in opposing directions: the ballnut on the table, and the thrust bearing it pushes against.
12:15 PM phaxx: the bearing in this case is in the motor, I think. does that sound right?
12:15 PM Tom_L: no
12:15 PM Rab: The thrust bearing might be integrated into the motor housing. But that is not typical.
12:15 PM gloops: half a mm, you should be able to feel that easily
12:15 PM phaxx: I'm not aware of any other places there'd be a bearing here.
12:16 PM IchGucksLive: the stepper motors are not tight bearing
12:16 PM phaxx: the mechanical path is: motor shaft, coupling to screw, screw to ball nut, ball nut to table.
12:16 PM IchGucksLive: and shure not made to take axial force
12:16 PM gloops: get hold of the screw and try to pull it back forth - any feeling of movement or knocking or catching
12:16 PM Tom_L: https://www.zyltech.com/ball-screw--ball-nut.html
12:16 PM Tom_L: check the setscrew in the locking nut
12:16 PM Tom_L: shown there
12:16 PM Tom_L: left end
12:16 PM IchGucksLive: why is there no BF / BK
12:17 PM phaxx: I see the screw, can't map that back to what I have though.
12:17 PM Rab: phaxx, take a look at this diagram: http://photobucket.com/gallery/user/jglass/media/bWVkaWFJZDo3MTM5NTk1MQ==/?ref=
12:17 PM IchGucksLive: or even use a bearing 2Euros 7005 2rs
12:17 PM Tom_L: pics worth 1k words
12:17 PM Tom_L: but i won't pay that
12:18 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, it sounds there is mechanical failue
12:18 PM phaxx: hm. I don't think I have the thrust bearing components in that picture.
12:19 PM gloops: screw should be mounted in some kind of axial thrust bearing, both ends
12:19 PM phaxx: one end is definitely floating, the other is connected to the motor shaft.
12:19 PM gloops: there is often a pressure nut - used to apply pressre to the bearings - may need adjusting
12:20 PM Rab: phaxx, the motor and thrust bearing are typically separate for serviceability. Most motors are not designed for heavy thrust loads, and you would rather service a separate bearing than an expensive motor. But again, it's not impossible the thrust bearing is integrated into the motor.
12:21 PM gloops: the coupling to the motor is flexible, yes?
12:21 PM Rab: Anyway, the point is, the screw has to push against something to move the table. If that point of contact is loose, backlash results.
12:21 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, why at all did you choose to go that way
12:21 PM phaxx: gloops: nope.
12:22 PM phaxx: IchGucksLive: I did not build this machine.
12:22 PM IchGucksLive: then modify it
12:22 PM phaxx: what the fuck does it look like I'm doing?
12:22 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, where in the world are you
12:22 PM phaxx: damn man, hold on before blaming me.
12:22 PM IchGucksLive: continent
12:23 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, noone blames you
12:23 PM phaxx: the X has the same setup with no apparent thrust bearing, but ~0.1mm backlash, so I'm puzzled about why the Y is so much worse.
12:23 PM gloops: phaxx, ichs is a very knowledgable person with cnc machines, he only wants to help you
12:23 PM phaxx: "then modify it" is flippant, dismissive and unhelpful.
12:23 PM phaxx: if I didn't want to fix this machine, I wouldn't be asking.
12:24 PM phaxx: anyway, looking for the motor specs again now to see if there's a thrust bearing in here.
12:24 PM Rab: phaxx, do you know the Conect model?
12:24 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, what arte the driving mesurments
12:25 PM phaxx: Rab: "Contour Minor" is all I have, it's a fairly old 90s model, popular in the UK for education, apparently.
12:25 PM phaxx: motor specs: http://www.vatecha.lt/data/stepper/L163.pdf
12:25 PM phaxx: no mention of thrust bearing.
12:26 PM phaxx: maybe there's a hint in there someone more experienced might spot :)
12:26 PM Rab: Yep, if that motor is used for screw fixity then either a bearing is missing or it's a really bad design.
12:27 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, do you got some cnc mashines to fit your own bearing in
12:28 PM phaxx: wouldn't rule out the latter. still though, the X has much lower backlash with the same configuration
12:28 PM Rab: So is the screw just floating in space, threaded through the ballnut and coupled to the motor, or does it pass through any kind of plate or bulkhead?
12:28 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, then tighten the Stepper in Liniar Axis Direction as mutch as you can
12:29 PM fragalot: phaxx: could you post a picture of the axis in question so people can stop wildly guessing at the setup and giving advice that may not apply or is plain wrong?
12:29 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, keep in mind the ancor inside the steper is floting tighten this in axial direction can shoreten the motor and kill the driver
12:30 PM phaxx: yeah, uploading a pic now.
12:30 PM IchGucksLive: fragalot, cheep free floting system
12:30 PM IchGucksLive: fragalot, the motor mount is the only fic point
12:30 PM phaxx: I don't see any sort of adjustment possible for the stepper, unless you mean the mounting for the stepper itself.
12:30 PM fragalot: IchGucksLive: possibly. Picture will say.
12:30 PM IchGucksLive: all other is floting
12:31 PM gloops: fragalot the english nationalist have no particular gripe with Belgium, but yes, im afraid your Bierre is banned too
12:31 PM fragalot: gloops: even though it's actually brewed locally in the UK?
12:31 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, there is acoupler to the steper
12:31 PM fragalot: just to know where they drew the line :-)
12:32 PM gloops: fragalot your breweries here may be nationalised
12:32 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, open up the screw to the spindle and press all against the stepper
12:33 PM fragalot: gloops: no idea, afaik all of them are privately owned,.. most ones with breweries outside the country are owned by AB-inbev
12:34 PM phaxx: this probably isn't very helpful but access is pretty awkward, so here you go: https://imgur.com/a/0i2begY
12:34 PM IchGucksLive: @ all WE the World champion have LOST against UNDERDOG soccer2018
12:35 PM fragalot: phaxx: can you reach the end of the screw to see if it's the screw moving or the nut?
12:35 PM fragalot: phaxx: or even just measure on the threads using a test indicator if it fits?
12:35 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, no way that this is a ballscrew spindle
12:35 PM Rab: Yeah, it's just rolled acme thread.
12:35 PM gloops: lol, i dont think many english people would try to ban european drinks, the wetherspoons boss is passionately pro Uk independence and i think he just wants to give his customers some reassurance that life outside the EU is not only possible but very desirable
12:35 PM IchGucksLive: so it is maybe the nut
12:35 PM phaxx: hmmm. it mates to nut that has recirculating ball bearings in it, is that not a ball nut?
12:36 PM Rab: hmm
12:36 PM * Rab looks closer
12:36 PM phaxx: fragalot: when I move it in 0.1mm steps, I can see the screw moving each time but the dial indicator isn't registering a movement until I get to 0.5mm "moved"
12:36 PM phaxx: so I reckon the slop is between the nut and the table, maybe?
12:37 PM fragalot: phaxx: I agree with that assesment
12:37 PM Rab: phaxx, yep, sounds like the nut is worn or loose.
12:37 PM IchGucksLive: this is a good example on retrofit update
12:37 PM fragalot: some nuts can be adjusted, some can't.. if they can't, only option is to replace or figure out a method of putting some pre-load on it using a secondary nut and shim stock or an adjustable spacer
12:38 PM IchGucksLive: agree on fragelot first spacer
12:38 PM phaxx: hmm.
12:39 PM gloops: re-ball the nit
12:39 PM gloops: err
12:39 PM gloops: nut
12:39 PM IchGucksLive: this simply looks like a TRapezional system
12:39 PM fragalot: unlikely that it's the balls that wear, gloops
12:39 PM Rab: phaxx, also, unless you can visually verify otherwise, I can almost guarantee you there is a thrust bearing inside the two aluminum blocks between the motor flange and the way casting. But that doesn't sound like the issue.
12:39 PM gloops: the balls may not wear, but over-size balls fill the gap in thread wear
12:39 PM IchGucksLive: the tread is to depth for balls
12:39 PM phaxx: you're right, I forgot about that one: https://imgur.com/a/0i2begY
12:40 PM phaxx: it's also loose
12:40 PM phaxx: the outer ring there is rotating 1/4 turn freely
12:40 PM gloops: what calls ballscrew are we talking here?
12:40 PM gloops: $50 c7?
12:40 PM gloops: or $1500 c3
12:40 PM phaxx: I have no idea what type it is, sorry.
12:40 PM IchGucksLive: gloops, there are older 4mm pitch ones
12:41 PM fragalot: phaxx: what outer ring?
12:41 PM fragalot: gloops: it's rolled, so c7.
12:41 PM IchGucksLive: ok im off discussion
12:41 PM phaxx: in the second picture in https://imgur.com/a/0i2begY, the 'outer ring' that is loose is the thick ring to the right of the visible screw thread, in the centre of the picture.
12:41 PM fragalot: phaxx: you uploaded the same pic twice :P
12:41 PM gloops: c7 screww - if there is no fitting issue, may as well get a new screw/nut
12:42 PM phaxx: not quite, it's an imgur album, there's a second picture below.
12:42 PM fragalot: hm it's not showing yet
12:42 PM fragalot: now it is :-
12:42 PM phaxx: cached, sorry. I'll upload a new one next time.
12:42 PM fragalot: yeah that's an adjustment screw
12:42 PM phaxx: for setting preload?
12:42 PM fragalot: you should be able to make that "tight" (just take out the slop, don't freeze it up)
12:42 PM fragalot: and then set the setscrew
12:42 PM IchGucksLive: gloops, full system replace 3 Ballscrew including nut 3 steppers 4Nm and 3 DM556 500Euros
12:43 PM IchGucksLive: gloops, best buy including 48V 8.3 A
12:43 PM IchGucksLive: phaxx, and you up on a full force system
12:43 PM IchGucksLive: BYE
12:44 PM phaxx: hmm. that seems like it needs doing, but I still think my major problem is at the nut/table interface because I can push/pull the motor and screw back and forth by hand, and register no table movement.
12:44 PM phaxx: so I'll tighten this bit and then start the major disassembly to get to the nut.
12:44 PM phaxx: sucks.
12:45 PM phaxx: okay, thanks everyone!
12:45 PM fragalot: good luck.
12:49 PM gloops: Germany 0-1 Mexico
12:49 PM gloops: some good players in mexico, slm kids always get good at football
12:49 PM gloops: slum
12:49 PM gregcnc: 0.5mm backlash?
12:50 PM gloops: unlikely this is the backlash between nut/screw we normally think of gregcnc
12:50 PM gregcnc: clearly machine backlash
12:52 PM gloops: who knows, he just bought the mll, could have had the balls thrashed off it, literally
12:54 PM fragalot: or the screw is just worn to hell
12:55 PM fragalot: in all scenarios, disassembly is going to be the best course of action
12:57 PM gloops: you should be able to feel .5mm
01:19 PM phaxx: yeah, I can feel that.
01:20 PM phaxx: seems like the ball nut is mounted to a little post under the table, but the post isn't securely mounted to the table, there's a hole in the side of the Y slide that allows an allen key to get in there to tighten it.
01:21 PM gloops: youre a born again fitter phaxx
01:23 PM gloops: you know, i often see people get angry over their machines, anger = fear, in this field, fear their machine is fcked and wont run ever again
01:23 PM gloops: its usually nothing, people need to have a bit more FAITH baby
01:25 PM gloops: if you keep thinking the machine is dead, youre gonna find a way to make that true you know
01:30 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.machinedesign.com/motion-control/top-5-mistakes-choosing-and-using-linear-guides
01:32 PM fragalot: the first few seem stupidly obvious
01:32 PM miss0r: hay hay hay
01:34 PM CaptHindsight: have uoi seen the level of stupid disguised as sage advice in here?
01:35 PM CaptHindsight: uoi /you
01:35 PM Tom_L: damn, like i said pic worth 1k words....
01:35 PM * Tom_L looks at the scroll back
02:01 PM tjb1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNqJFnHEWDk
02:04 PM tiwake: that push force guide they are showing in that article can't be cheap
02:07 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: question. brass tapered gibs, yay or nay?
02:07 PM fragalot: application: light duty manual mill
02:08 PM tiwake: fragalot: most are steel arn't they?
02:09 PM fragalot: cast iron, not steel
02:09 PM tiwake: enh, I seem to recall seeing brass ones
02:10 PM Tom_L: bronze
02:10 PM tiwake: meh... most things are cast iron because its cheap
02:10 PM tiwake: or at least, the things that are cast iron are only cast iron because its cheap
02:12 PM tiwake: alumina bronze is pretty badass
02:15 PM phaxx: I seem to have a few m of runout at the end of the Y screw, but I don't have a flexible coupling between screw and motor to handle that. is that always wrong, or could I have some other part in this machine that is intended to handle that?
02:16 PM fragalot: it is
02:16 PM phaxx: er, few mm
02:16 PM fragalot: phaxx: the coupling does not handle anything to do with backlash
02:16 PM tiwake: I made some aluminum bronze oxidizer injectors for a rocket engine once, for an engineer I used to make parts for
02:16 PM fragalot: the coupling on the motor shaft is to protect the motor bearings from the shaft's inevitable misalignment
02:16 PM fragalot: .. i read runout as backlash. ignore me.
02:17 PM phaxx: :)
02:17 PM phaxx: but I also needed to know that, so thanks.
02:17 PM fragalot: but yes, you should always have a flexible coupling :P
02:17 PM fragalot: and yes, putting a bearing at the end to stop that runout is a bad thing.
02:17 PM tiwake: phaxx: put one of these in http://img.dxcdn.com/productimages/sku_496776_1.jpg
02:17 PM tiwake: or similar
02:18 PM phaxx: so was this machine just built by someone that didn't know that, or could there be some other part of the design that was intended to take care of this?
02:18 PM tiwake: they make versions of that style coupler into the multi-thousands of horse power
02:18 PM gregcnc: un supported screw ends are OK
02:18 PM fragalot: phaxx: unless if the motor mount itself can flex, the builder either didn't know, or didn't care.
02:19 PM gregcnc: assuming it's within the critical shaft speed etc., etc., etc.
02:19 PM phaxx: one end is unsupported, the other is base bolted to motor mount (aluminium block) bolted to motor.
02:19 PM tiwake: oh wait... wait wait... if the screw is basically free-floating, not a ballscrew... then it won't matter
02:20 PM CaptHindsight: I haven't been following the discussion
02:20 PM phaxx: does that runout not cause binding at one end of travel?
02:20 PM phaxx: that's what I've experienced with this machine anyway
02:20 PM gregcnc: bent screws aren't the best way to do things
02:20 PM fragalot: it may
02:22 PM gregcnc: is the thrust bearing preloaded against the motor housing?
02:22 PM tiwake: all-thread is typically not the straightest thing anyway
02:22 PM phaxx: it seems to be.
02:22 PM tiwake: phaxx: do you have pictures?
02:22 PM phaxx: second picture of https://imgur.com/a/0i2begY shows what I assume to be the thrust bearing against the motor housing.
02:23 PM gregcnc: that's what i think i see
02:23 PM phaxx: motor right, coupling to screw left.
02:23 PM gregcnc: is that an acme screw?
02:23 PM tiwake: looks like it to me
02:24 PM tiwake: don't look like square threads
02:24 PM phaxx: I don't know. :)
02:24 PM gregcnc: probably the original parts adapted to the stepper
02:24 PM tiwake: acme threads are rather sloppy
02:24 PM phaxx: I think so, I believe this machine was once manual and had a conversion kit applied.
02:24 PM phaxx: there's a lot of obviously DIY work in this
02:27 PM tiwake: well... check the straightness of the acme threaded rod, make sure the ways are adjusted correctly and not worn in the middle (it looks to be in decent shape from the picture), and finally alignment..
02:27 PM CaptHindsight: wow
02:28 PM tiwake: gregcnc: the acme thread looks like it was turned a bit at the end its connected to the stepper/servo
02:28 PM phaxx: the rod itself appears straight, it doesn't appear straight in the coupling though.
02:28 PM gregcnc: probably just the original end and thread for the bushing/handle
02:28 PM phaxx: tiwake: yes, there's a sharp bit of screw just before it enters the coupling, I assume someone turned it down and didn't tidy it up.
02:28 PM CaptHindsight: did thus ever work?
02:29 PM phaxx: yeah, it has had a long life and then it came to me.
02:29 PM gregcnc: well to someones spec?
02:29 PM phaxx: I have had it moving through the full travel, but am trying to work out some backlash.
02:29 PM * phaxx shrugs
02:29 PM tiwake: did you take the rod out and roll it around on a super flat surface to make sure it was flat?
02:29 PM phaxx: no, the rod appears to be mounted in the coupling with some sort of press fitting, not easily removed
02:30 PM gregcnc: 0.5mm backlash on an acme like that is probably normal
02:30 PM phaxx: well, the X axis has 0.1mm of backlash and has the same hardware.
02:30 PM phaxx: if I could get to that level I'd be happy.
02:30 PM fragalot: phaxx: have you got a clear picture of the nut?
02:30 PM phaxx: yeah, one sec
02:30 PM gregcnc: if the nut is worn, there won't be much to be done
02:31 PM CaptHindsight: oh so we don't know where the lash is from yet
02:31 PM tiwake: not much is known... heh
02:31 PM CaptHindsight: good luck
02:31 PM phaxx: I /think/ the backlash is between the table and the post that descends from the table, into which the nut is mounted
02:31 PM phaxx: when I disassembled it, that post was wobbly.
02:31 PM fragalot: there is a 'hacky' way to improve it, which is what my RF45 uses from factory... nut is nearly fully split & has a screw to force the pieces apart to reduce backlash
02:31 PM gregcnc: if that was loose it's probably worn there too
02:32 PM fragalot: phaxx: that should be ean easy fix if that is indeed the cause
02:32 PM phaxx: that's what I thought, and then I had binding when testing the full Y travel, and I assume that is because of the rod runout...
02:32 PM phaxx: nut and coupling: https://imgur.com/a/91yBdYM
02:33 PM tiwake: wait, that looks like a ball screw
02:33 PM gregcnc: the bent screw will bind if the nut is mounted rigidly
02:33 PM phaxx: it has ball bearings inside.
02:33 PM tiwake: yeah, ballscrew
02:33 PM tiwake: a really crappy ballscrew
02:33 PM CaptHindsight: I vote ballscrew
02:33 PM fragalot: phaxx: now that you have that out
02:34 PM CaptHindsight: or by now polyhedronscrew
02:34 PM fragalot: mount the screw in a vice, wiggle the nut & see if there is any play there
02:34 PM tiwake: heh
02:34 PM fragalot: if not, it's the post.
02:34 PM tiwake: a proper ballscrew has 0.0001" of backlash
02:34 PM CaptHindsight: or if everything wiggles it's everything
02:35 PM phaxx: I'm not getting 0.5mm-worth of backlash between screw and nut, but I was definitely getting that much between table and the post that contains the nut.
02:35 PM gregcnc: "proper" ball screws are avaialble in a wide range of backlash and tolerance classes
02:35 PM tiwake: enh
02:36 PM fragalot: phaxx: alright, time for you to remake that part & fit it properly they :-)
02:36 PM tiwake: if you like lots of backlash I guess you can get a cheap crap one with a bunch of backlash... rolled, not ground
02:36 PM phaxx: I can tighten up the post to the table, but then I get binding...
02:36 PM tiwake: alignment
02:36 PM CaptHindsight: what was holing that nut>
02:36 PM CaptHindsight: ?
02:37 PM phaxx: I wonder if my problem might just be an alignment thing, if all these .. yes, alignment. :)
02:37 PM phaxx: there's a grub screw in the table post that binds to the ball nut.
02:37 PM tiwake: take the screw off the motor, or find a way to move the motor around.. maybe shim the block the motor is mounted to
02:37 PM phaxx: the table post is itself held to the table with two grub screws, and those were loose and causing the backlash, I blieve.
02:37 PM phaxx: I can move the motor/mount easily, shimming it should be fine.
02:37 PM CaptHindsight: ah haha
02:38 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: the whole thing is a hack-job, so why not hack it some more
02:38 PM phaxx: I wondered about putting a thin layer of hard-ish rubber between the motor and the mount, to try to trade a small amount of backlash off against the dodgy bent coupling.
02:38 PM CaptHindsight: keeps the theme
02:38 PM phaxx: hacky and cheap works for me.
02:38 PM tiwake: yeah see?
02:38 PM phaxx: it was a free machine, and I'm not going for high quality here!
02:38 PM phaxx: getting to 0.1mm backlash would be great
02:39 PM phaxx: 0.5mm is silly though
02:39 PM tiwake: phaxx: that coupler I linked you would be very good to have
02:39 PM phaxx: yeah, I think that's probably required.
02:39 PM tiwake: or the other style
02:39 PM gregcnc: any coupler will require a new motor mount and bearing support for teh screw
02:39 PM phaxx: I have some on an 3D printer in front of me, I can just steal those for now, but I'm puzzling over how to non-destructively disassemble the current coupling
02:39 PM fragalot: heck, any coupler is better than no coupler
02:39 PM fragalot: even if it's just a piece of garden hose :P
02:39 PM phaxx: heh
02:40 PM gregcnc: push the rolll pin out and I bet it just falls off
02:40 PM gregcnc: or maybe it's held with some loctite
02:42 PM tiwake: phaxx: https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/ballscrews-nuts/flexible-aluminum-shaft-coupling-8mm-x-8mm-for-nema23-motor-duplicate/
02:42 PM tiwake: thats the other style
02:42 PM phaxx: ah, yeah, that's what's on the printer here.
02:42 PM tiwake: both are really common
02:42 PM phaxx: which is apparently better designed than this mill
02:43 PM tiwake: the other style is nicer when you take everything apart though
02:43 PM gregcnc: how does that work without a screw support bearing?
02:44 PM tiwake: need one of those too
02:44 PM tiwake: gregcnc: evidently poorly
02:45 PM phaxx: heh
02:45 PM tiwake: phaxx: https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/ballscrews-nuts/1pcs-antibacklash-ball-screw-1605-l400mm-c7bkbf12-2pcs-6-3510mm-couplers/
02:45 PM phaxx: there's quite a lot of play between the table base and the motor mount, so I suspect the point made earlier about alignment is a good one.
02:45 PM gregcnc: right now it relies on the motor bearings and uses the thrust bearing for preload
02:46 PM tiwake: yeah, no kidding... wear out the stepper/servo motor bearings like crazy
02:47 PM tiwake: where I work, we rebuild electric motors... see all kinds of crazy stuff from motors not being mounted correctly and the bearings failing
02:50 PM phaxx: any motor mounting alignment tips?
02:51 PM phaxx: should I set the gib screws before anything else?
02:51 PM tiwake: take it apart and rebuild it with correct parts?
02:52 PM phaxx: eventually, maybe. for now, I'd like to get it back to where it was.
02:52 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: where is a good place to get good ballscrews like THK or similar?
02:52 PM tiwake: phaxx: but was it ever?
02:53 PM fragalot: it was most likely where it used to be.
02:53 PM fragalot: at some point
02:53 PM phaxx: I've cut a few things on this machine and didn't have 0.5mm of backlash-induced error in the parts as far as I could tell, so I think this deteriorated recently.
02:54 PM phaxx: anyway, general alignment tips would be appreciated.
02:57 PM Tom_L: phaxx, align it so that when everything is tight you get this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCva7pnMtEQ
02:59 PM Tom_L: no 2 alignment jobs are going to be exactly the same
02:59 PM tiwake: Tom_L: he already said he didn't or couldn't remove the ballscrew from the motor
03:00 PM tiwake: erm, didn't want to, or could not
03:00 PM tiwake: not sure which yet
03:00 PM phaxx: and the thrust bearing is against the motor, not separated like that one
03:00 PM phaxx: eh, part can't and part don't want to, it's pretty well fixed and I couldn't remove the fixing pin with some light tapping
03:01 PM Tom_L: relying on the motor for thrust is a bad idea, it will wear the motor out prematurely
03:01 PM phaxx: so I understand, but it's not my design. :)
03:01 PM tiwake: already said that
03:01 PM Tom_L: and if you pull on it too much, the motor shaft will slip on the armature
03:02 PM Tom_L: tiwake, i didn't read the whole chapter on this misalignment issue sorry
03:03 PM tiwake: phaxx: its just a roll pin if I recall... beat the snot out of it
03:03 PM tiwake: roll pins are cheap and easy
03:03 PM phaxx: seems to be, yeah.
03:03 PM tiwake: and in this case, lazy
03:03 PM phaxx: yeah, that's sort of a theme with this machine that I'm getting
03:03 PM Tom_L: back it up with something so you don't tweak the shaft
03:05 PM phaxx: I'm nervous about going too deep on this since it was working with somewhat acceptable performance before all this, and I'm in danger of being eaten by sharks: https://www.xkcd.com/349/
03:05 PM theCockerel: http://xkcd.com/349 | Success | Alt-text: 40% of OpenBSD installs lead to shark attacks. It's their only standing security issue.
03:07 PM tiwake: phaxx: except its not acceptable performance
03:08 PM phaxx: it was until it deteriorated. :)
03:08 PM Tom_L: A: keep plugging away at it to improve on what you have. B: cut your losses and build a more rigid functional machine
03:08 PM Tom_L: i chose B: when it came to fixing my sherline
03:08 PM phaxx: I was happy with X/Y repeatability and backlash, though I can't remember the figures.
03:09 PM phaxx: I had some Z problems with losing steps, replaced the drivers and was re-commissioning the X/Y axes when I found that backlash problem, it wasn't there the first time so I guess those grub screws holding the table post loosened.
03:10 PM phaxx: like most old things it's a bit of a story
03:10 PM tiwake: https://tech.thk.com/en/products/pdf/en_a15_011.pdf
03:10 PM tiwake: at best its a class C7 ballscrew
03:12 PM tiwake: hmm
03:12 PM tiwake: which is evidently defined by travel distance error and nothing else
03:13 PM tiwake: thought there was more to it
03:14 PM tiwake: basically 0.002" every foot, travel distance error
03:15 PM phaxx: reassembled everything, have full range of motion and 0.04mm backlash.
03:15 PM tiwake: (that's rather sloppy IMO)
03:15 PM phaxx: that's well within my target of 0.1mm so I'm happy.
03:15 PM phaxx: thanks for all the advice everyone!
03:16 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: pooooooooke
03:16 PM phaxx: when something else fails, I will look at replacing more of the motion hardware using the advice I got today.
03:17 PM tiwake: phaxx: this looks interesting http://www.machinedesign.com/mechanical-drives/what-you-ought-know-about-ball-screws
03:18 PM phaxx: yeah, that does look like essential reading for when I consider motion hardware, bookmarked. thanks!
03:18 PM phaxx: I like the fighting backlash section
03:35 PM tiwake: I guess C7 ballscrews are not as terrible as I thought
03:35 PM tiwake: still not great, but w/e
03:57 PM miss0r: syyl: I got it in place: https://imgur.com/a/PfPuNdq
03:57 PM miss0r: yeah, I know.. I had some oil or something on the lense
03:58 PM syyl: nice :D
03:58 PM Tecan: https://www.ebay.ca/itm/KATSU-852D-2-in-1-Hot-Air-Gun-Soldering-Iron-Station-Rework-Station/113062461901 wow 20 dollars
03:58 PM Roguish: is that the newish edm
03:58 PM miss0r: only thing keeping me from running it now, is low dielectric level in the tank...
03:59 PM miss0r: Roguish: if 1982 qualifies it as 'newish' then yes
03:59 PM Roguish: newish to yhou
03:59 PM miss0r: indeed. I just got it Friday
03:59 PM Roguish: outstanding. be safe
03:59 PM miss0r: I sure will. I'm taking it slow. I've never run a real EDM before
04:01 PM Rab: miss0r, is that the end of your DIY EDM project?
04:02 PM miss0r: Rab: not by a long shot. The DIY will be used to bring into the field to un fubar stuff
04:02 PM miss0r: which was always what it wasn intedted to be for
04:02 PM Rab: Cool, like a mag drill?
04:03 PM miss0r: Yeah. It is mounted on a magbase, for that exact reason
04:03 PM miss0r: I just got the last parts for it via mail today. It will soon be ready to take on the go. It just needs some connectors, a new PSU & some tweaking
04:04 PM miss0r: (at the moment it does more arcing than sparking) which is not good
04:04 PM miss0r: :]
04:06 PM miss0r: but this new EDM opens up some options I did not even start to dream about, when I bought my first cheap chinesium cnc 6 years ago :]
04:21 PM tiwake: miss0r: I know a guy with a few wire EDM machines
04:21 PM CaptHindsight: tiwake: don't know any discount sites for those if that's what you are looking for
04:22 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: no... I'm just not sure where I can get good ballscrews that are ground
04:22 PM tiwake: IE better than C7
04:22 PM miss0r: tiwake: Bosch rexroth
04:23 PM miss0r: tiwake: or look at rs-online, they have a few in stock
04:23 PM miss0r: also, I might want to ask that friend of yours a few questions at some point :]
04:23 PM tiwake: bosch is a company that does not sell one or three things to some random guy
04:24 PM miss0r: well, find a local dealer of said product line.
04:24 PM tiwake: miss0r: he has 2 old wire EDM machines, and two new ones
04:24 PM tiwake: maybe more now
04:24 PM tiwake: no, three old ones
04:24 PM tiwake: two for parts... heh
04:24 PM miss0r: hehe
04:25 PM tiwake: I think it was the first wire EDM machine mitushbishi made
04:25 PM miss0r: I don't know what to think about that (I realy don't)
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.hiwin.com/ballscrews.html
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: they have an outlet store as well
04:26 PM miss0r: I mean, I do service and repair on a very wide vareity of machines, but I've never been asked to service a mitsubishi wire edm
04:27 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.hiwin.com/stock-ballscrews.html
04:27 PM tiwake: miss0r: https://www.manta.com/c/mmf30x3/vikon-precision-products
04:28 PM miss0r: tiwake: where is this?
04:28 PM tiwake: miss0r: where I grew up, where that guy is that owns all those wire EDM machines
04:28 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.automation4less.com/ballscrews.htm
04:28 PM * miss0r can't be bothered to look around a website.. :D
04:28 PM tiwake: miss0r: there is no website from what I can tell
04:28 PM miss0r: Where are we: geographically speaking
04:29 PM Tom_L: northwest US
04:29 PM miss0r: ahh... Its a bit far for me :]
04:29 PM tiwake: west coast oregon USA
04:30 PM tiwake: nearest walmart to this day is a 2 hour drive one direction
04:30 PM Tom_L: naw, come on over.. we're not as bad as the rest of the world thinks
04:30 PM tiwake: screw oregon
04:30 PM miss0r: I know a guy locally, IIRC he runs this exact model. I will go talk to him tomorrow, if I can get my other jobs done in a hurry
04:30 PM miss0r: I've visited the US a few times. I've been to new york & a few places in the south.
04:31 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: I love me some NSK
04:31 PM miss0r: New york is just like any other bigger european city. But I do enjoy going to a diner in the south :]
04:31 PM Tom_L: nothin like southern hospitality
04:32 PM tiwake: newyork is just as bad/worse
04:32 PM miss0r: That is quite true. unless you are black
04:32 PM miss0r: @ Tom_L
04:32 PM miss0r: Last time I was in the south, my brother and me ran a strict bacon cheese burger diet
04:33 PM CaptHindsight: NSK http://www.automation4less.com/store/categories.asp?cat=1243
04:33 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: does NSK only make metric crap?
04:34 PM miss0r: thats enough ranting for one night. See you around
04:34 PM CaptHindsight: miss0r: hasta
04:34 PM tiwake: too late
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: tiwake: they make inch ball screws but they end up in overstock since uhmericans can't use em
04:36 PM CaptHindsight: the metric models
04:37 PM tiwake: 0.2" lead pitch is nice for a ballscrew
04:37 PM CaptHindsight: so they charge more for the ones that use inches
04:38 PM Tom_L: tiwake, what's wrong with 5mm?
04:38 PM CaptHindsight: mm, cm, m, km what's with all these forms of meters?
04:39 PM tiwake: Tom_L: rarely do anything metric, its nicer to keep the same standard across everything... but not strictly necessary
04:39 PM CaptHindsight: we certainly don't have mili inches or centa inches
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: just good ol inches
04:40 PM tiwake: thats a legal thing though... mili-inches is legit
04:40 PM tiwake: heh
04:40 PM tiwake: its just a prefix
04:40 PM CaptHindsight: who talks like that?
04:41 PM CaptHindsight: mili-inches, yall get threwn outta a bar fer usin that term
04:41 PM tiwake: strictly speaking, legal
04:42 PM Tom_L: but what distannce would that be in inches?
04:42 PM Rab: A thou??
04:42 PM Tom_L: explain that to the guy hunched over the bar at 4:30
04:42 PM tiwake: but nobody I know uses ponies to measure out gunpowder either
04:43 PM tiwake: Tom_L: don't tempt me
04:43 PM tiwake: I might go out bar hopping just to rant about measuring systems XD
04:43 PM tiwake: and get a bit drunk
04:44 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: have you hard of these guys before? http://www.nookindustries.com/Product/ProductCategory/1208
04:45 PM CaptHindsight: Nook is good
04:46 PM Deejay: gn8
04:46 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgEli5zAi0U
04:47 PM Roguish: all, makes no difference what measurement system a ballscrew is in. it's all just numbers..................
04:47 PM Roguish: use whatever is 'right' for your project.
04:47 PM JT-Shop: :)
04:48 PM CaptHindsight: what numbers would Jesus use?
04:48 PM Roguish: cubits
04:48 PM tiwake: furlongs
04:48 PM tiwake: cubit imperialists
04:51 PM tiwake: Roguish: it makes a little bit of difference with really precise things... trying to adjust offset that the increment gradient of the system would make it fall between the two smallest values
04:51 PM * Tom_L gives tiwake an analog yardstick
04:52 PM tiwake: that can be worked around by increasing the precision of the encoders... but its still kinda clunky
04:52 PM Roguish: given gearing reduction, encoder quadrature, etc. the difference becomes trivial. well below the accuracies of most all machines discussed on this forum.
04:53 PM Roguish: ya want/need more accuracy, spend more $$$ on encoders, high tolerance screws and bearings, and most of all highly rigid machines.
04:53 PM tiwake: just saying its a concern, though a concern for later, when I'm closer to building such a system
04:54 PM tiwake: need to get my hardinge CHNC working first with a conctoller :3
04:54 PM Roguish: skip the 80/20 framing. and cheap steppers. get real.
04:54 PM tiwake: for sure
04:56 PM Roguish: i'm not sure what format most of linuxcnc is written in, but i'll bet it's double precision. (or equivalent)
04:56 PM CaptHindsight: how to use t-slot http://www.h-b.com/images/large/1productimg/305_01_LRG.jpg
04:56 PM tiwake: oh, I'm not concerned about that
04:56 PM Roguish: ya want more precision, use 4 or 5 or even 6 decimal places in your gcode.....
04:57 PM Roguish: and don't forget the temperature and humidity controlled room for your work.
04:58 PM tiwake: sure, these have all been considered
04:58 PM Roguish: got cooled ball screws/nut? and coolant?
04:58 PM Roguish: just saying get real with one's expectations.
04:58 PM CaptHindsight: nah
04:58 PM Roguish: and ya might actually achieve 'em.
04:59 PM CaptHindsight: there are years of work dedicated to avoiding such issues
04:59 PM JT-Shop: cool someone is inquiring about my old table saw
04:59 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, get your new cyclone?
04:59 PM tiwake: the first machine won't likely matter
05:00 PM JT-Shop: yea got it Friday, pretty cool for $200
05:00 PM Tom_L: nice
05:00 PM JT-Shop: 4" inlet and outlet
05:00 PM JT-Shop: came with a fiberboard drum so plug and play
05:01 PM tiwake: Roguish: http://www.artcotools.com/compete-nsk-e3000-series-spindle-system-60-000-rpm.html
05:01 PM tiwake: want to build a machine with that for a spindle
05:01 PM tiwake: its about $3,000
05:01 PM Roguish: nice.
05:02 PM Roguish: for very small, precise work?
05:02 PM tiwake: it really is
05:02 PM tiwake: yeah
05:02 PM tiwake: among other things (engraving)
05:02 PM Roguish: think mass and rigidity for the overall machine.
05:02 PM tiwake: but thats after I get the hardinge CHNC going first
05:04 PM tiwake: Spindle Accuracy: Within 1 µm
05:04 PM Roguish: hardinge is good quality. study how it's designed and built.
05:05 PM tiwake: I'm aware :P
05:05 PM tiwake: thats one of the things that bothered me about omni-turn
05:05 PM tiwake: the whole system is rather cheesy
05:06 PM CaptHindsight: all it takes is maker article on how overbuilt something is an they are off to the races
05:06 PM CaptHindsight: reinventing new software
05:06 PM CaptHindsight: ordering plywood
05:09 PM tiwake: heh yeah... thats rather idiotic
05:10 PM CaptHindsight: http://praezisionstools.com/mwgpt/measuring-plates/t-slot-bars/wg1pt.html
05:13 PM CaptHindsight: tiwake: http://www.rockfordballscrew.com/ was just out there the other day
05:14 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.rockfordballscrew.com/products/ball-screws/
05:14 PM CaptHindsight: lots of tech info as well
05:14 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: looks like C7 tolerance
05:16 PM tiwake: nook has better tolerances
05:41 PM JT-Shop: well crap the person who was asking about the table saw just said call or text me at .... screw that
05:56 PM Tom_L: JT-Shop, do you still have the bot code handy?
05:56 PM MarcelineVQ: sounds like kind of a good ploy actually, if you call them they know you want it gone
05:56 PM Tom_L: i'm trying to find something in the header
06:13 PM CaptHindsight: is the saw on CL or similar?
07:21 PM Tecan: anyone know if that beaded metal rope would make a good belt ?
07:22 PM Tecan: its very strong and metal on metal should not wear out
07:23 PM Tecan: ballchain
07:23 PM Kevin`: Tecan: not sure what you mean. surely not the type used for pens?
07:24 PM Tecan: yes but they sell larger stuff at home hardware
07:24 PM Tecan: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:867/files
07:25 PM Kevin`: personally I suspect it would be more .. what is word.. stretchy? than standard fiber reinforced timing belts
07:27 PM Tecan: i have a peice of it here and its really solid
07:27 PM Tecan: for 3d printing it may be perfect
07:27 PM Tecan: they use it for blinds alot and i've never seen it break from regular use
07:44 PM SpeedEvil: Tecan: terrible
07:44 PM SpeedEvil: Tecan: the bearings inside are typically rudimentary
08:31 PM tiwake: can linuxCNC be used for realtime audio stuff?
08:37 PM Kevin`: the same realtime hardware and system software selection would apply, but I doubt the cnc control stuff would be directly useful
08:57 PM hazzy-lab: always wondered how much weight my little truck can handle reasonably, not I know
08:57 PM hazzy-lab: I got 1600lbs of block today and it still had about 1.5in to go before it hit the stops, so it can haul that no problem
08:57 PM hazzy-lab: I had about 2,200lbs in it when I hauled the BP mill, and that was a little overloaded for a long drive :D
08:57 PM hazzy-lab: https://i.imgur.com/Wl6fRfh.jpg
09:18 PM evilren_: tiwake: looked into JACK?
09:25 PM * Tecan >>> Auto-op est suspendu...
10:08 PM Tecan: https://pasteboard.co/HqoJQdJ.jpg took 5 hours for the black block to print, got it down to 140 grams and 3 hours now
10:41 PM hazzy-dev: Tecan: Looking good! Is that glow-in-the-dark filament?? Looks like it might contain tritium :)
10:47 PM ziper: isel still at 0 dollars
10:52 PM Lcvette: hazzy-dev: still on?
10:52 PM hazzy-lab: yep
10:52 PM Lcvette: Screen question for you
10:53 PM Lcvette: How difficult would it be to add some boxes to keep up with tools in a carosel
10:54 PM Lcvette: Code is already there keeping up with it just need a way to display it
10:54 PM hazzy-lab: Probably not very hard
10:55 PM hazzy-lab: What is the code, HAL or python ..?
10:55 PM Lcvette: Hmmm
10:56 PM Lcvette: Think it's python
10:56 PM Lcvette: Ngc files
10:56 PM Lcvette: Macros
10:56 PM Lcvette: I'm still new
10:57 PM Lcvette: :/
10:58 PM hazzy-lab: Ah, ok, so the getting the data might be the hardest part, adding whatever is necessary to the screen should be easy
10:58 PM Lcvette: Ah
10:59 PM hazzy-lab: So this is for a tool changer?
10:59 PM Lcvette: . Yeah 12. Tool
10:59 PM Lcvette: Carousel
11:00 PM Lcvette: It's working
11:00 PM hazzy-lab: Ok, so what kind of data do you want to display
11:00 PM hazzy-lab: ?
11:01 PM Lcvette: Just carousel pocket number and too number currently residing in that pa
11:01 PM Tom_L: you're still using gmocappy right?
11:01 PM Lcvette: Ocket
11:01 PM Lcvette: Pocket
11:01 PM Lcvette: Yes gmoccapy
11:02 PM hazzy-lab: That should be vary easy!
11:02 PM Tom_L: i display the current tool on mine but i'm using axis
11:02 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/screenshot.png
11:03 PM Tom_L: should be easy to show the pocket too i'd think
11:03 PM Lcvette: Yeah??
11:03 PM Lcvette: My that sounds promising
11:04 PM Lcvette: Tom_L for a12 tool carousel?
11:04 PM Lcvette: Or just the single?
11:04 PM Lcvette: Spindle
11:04 PM hazzy-lab: Gmoccapy has several spots where you can add a custom panel, so you could use one of those, or put it almost anywhere else you want
11:04 PM Tom_L: you want the current tool and pocket?
11:05 PM Lcvette: No, to track the carousel completely
11:05 PM Lcvette: Know what's where
11:05 PM Lcvette: It away knows when you load it but it's not displayed anywhere
11:05 PM Lcvette: So you have to wire it down physically
11:06 PM Lcvette: Kinda silly
11:06 PM Tom_L: hazzy-dev does that data get written back to the tool table?
11:06 PM Tom_L: pocket number etc for each tool?
11:07 PM hazzy-lab: Its not a random changer, right? So the tool table does list which pocket each tool is in
11:07 PM Tom_L: i've never had to mess with keeping track of pocket vs tool
11:07 PM Tom_L: so i'm not sure
11:08 PM Lcvette: I'm not certain if the tool table records it
11:08 PM Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gui/gmoccapy.html
11:08 PM Tom_L: it does
11:09 PM Lcvette: I loaded several tools from the table and didn't notice it tracking them in the table
11:09 PM Tom_L: i'm not sure if you have to write it to the tool table when it changes or not though
11:10 PM Tom_L: you may have to update it with a macro or something
11:10 PM Lcvette: Hm, that may be
11:10 PM Lcvette: It wasn't doing it automatically
11:11 PM hazzy-lab: Do the tools always go back into the pocket they came from?
11:11 PM Lcvette: Yes
11:12 PM Tom_L: so why not load t1 to p1 then?
11:12 PM Lcvette: Unless you change them out
11:12 PM hazzy-lab: right :D
11:12 PM Tom_L: i set up my cad tool list the same way my tool table is
11:12 PM Lcvette: I have 120+ tools
11:12 PM Tom_L: and if i add a tool, i add it to the tool table
11:12 PM Lcvette: And 12 pockets
11:13 PM Lcvette: Lol
11:13 PM Tom_L: i think andy or somebody was working on or looking into that some time back
11:13 PM Tom_L: so have different tool tables
11:14 PM Lcvette: My too table corresponds to my can tool table
11:14 PM Lcvette: Cam
11:14 PM hazzy-lab: So when you change out the tools in the tray you change the pocket numbers in the tooltable?
11:14 PM Tom_L: if you change what's in T1 you're gonna have to change the offsets anyway
11:14 PM Lcvette: You unable a pocket in the carousel
11:14 PM Lcvette: Unload
11:15 PM Tom_L: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gcode/tool-compensation.html
11:15 PM Tom_L: talks a little about tools and pockets
11:15 PM Lcvette: Then install a tool m61 Q(T#)
11:16 PM Lcvette: Then load the tool into the carousel to record it
11:16 PM Tom_L: the pocket won't change though
11:16 PM Tom_L: you remove T1 from P1 and replace it with T60, P1 will still be P1
11:17 PM Lcvette: Correct
11:17 PM Tom_L: because you should know what tool is called up
11:17 PM Lcvette: P1 with
11:17 PM Lcvette: Will just have T60 now
11:18 PM Tom_L: but your T60 will have H1 unless you change that too
11:18 PM Tom_L: or bad things will happen
11:18 PM hazzy-lab: I did not know M61 could be used that way. So it after a tool change it 'remembers' what tool you loaded with M61?
11:18 PM Lcvette: Hb value sould follow t#
11:18 PM Tom_L: not unless you change it
11:19 PM Tom_L: i don't think it will
11:19 PM Lcvette: M61 Q3
11:20 PM Lcvette: Means you loaded tool tool 3 in the spindle
11:21 PM Lcvette: At least that's how I was instructed
11:22 PM hazzy-lab: Right, but AFAIK the fact that T3 is now in the spindle is not recorded in the tooltable, so when you do a toolchange it will think whatever tool was in the spindle before T3 was put back into the pocket
11:22 PM Tom_L: i've never fooled around with random changer tools so i'm not sure how it acts
11:22 PM Tom_L: i think hazzy-dev is right
11:23 PM Tom_L: it may try to go to T3 pocket and hit the other holder
11:23 PM Tom_L: something you definitely need to test out
11:23 PM Lcvette: Might be
11:24 PM Tom_L: i know any time you edit the tool table you need to reload it so lcnc sees the changes
11:25 PM Lcvette: I will have to go through and test it out
11:25 PM Tom_L: I pulled T3 from it's pocket manually and put another holder with a preset sharp tool in the spindle and now i'm calling it T3 so it should go to the T3 P3 pocket assuming it's been emptied.
11:26 PM Tom_L: so P3 better be empty
11:27 PM Lcvette: It tracks
11:27 PM Lcvette: If t3 has been put in p3
11:27 PM Lcvette: It knows it's full
11:28 PM Lcvette: It won't allow you to send another tool there
11:28 PM Tom_L: but what if you remove it manually and use M61 Q3?
11:28 PM hazzy-lab: Using M61?
11:29 PM Lcvette: No
11:29 PM Lcvette: I tried
11:29 PM Tom_L: this might be something you and your cad program may have to discuss
11:29 PM Lcvette: During my first tests I tried to do the same thing twice in a row and it would let me
11:29 PM Tom_L: since you only have 12 tools at a time
11:30 PM Tom_L: my bud had a belt changer and it held a helluvalot of tools
11:30 PM Lcvette: Some will have to be changed manually
11:31 PM Lcvette: In those instances you'll have to call t0?
11:31 PM Tom_L: i don't want to say since i've not tested it
11:31 PM Lcvette: Park the existing tool
11:32 PM Lcvette: Tools are called by number not pockets though
11:34 PM hazzy-lab: Right, but all the tool changer knows about are pockets, the tooltable maps tools to pockets so when you call tool 79 it knows that that is in P3
11:37 PM hazzy-lab: Lcvette: So basically what you are trying to do is be able to change out the tools in the carousel without having to manually go in and edit the tooltable, is that correct?
11:38 PM Lcvette: Correct
11:39 PM Lcvette: But really be better to have 12 boxes somewhere as an easy reference with numbers
11:40 PM hazzy-lab: Or something like this: http://www.tormach.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/atc_screen.png
11:40 PM Lcvette: Unless the tool table self sorts?
11:40 PM hazzy-lab: It could be made to sort :D
11:40 PM Lcvette: Yeah, the carousel image would be sweet
11:41 PM Lcvette: But really even simple boxes would be fine
11:41 PM Lcvette: Just a line of 12 boxes stacked vertically
11:42 PM Lcvette: Just want a quick easy reference at a glance
11:42 PM hazzy-lab: Right, then all you would have to do is enter the tool number in the box that corisponds to the pocket it is in
11:42 PM Lcvette: To see what's where do if I want to call a certain too I can without bending my head under the carousel to see the player numbers
11:43 PM Tom_L: you're still gonna have to edit the tool table
11:43 PM Tom_L: in order to update the H word
11:43 PM hazzy-lab: No, it boxes could edit the tooltable :D
11:43 PM hazzy-lab: the boxes*
11:43 PM Lcvette: ?
11:43 PM Tom_L: unless you set a different H word for each tool
11:43 PM Lcvette: Tom your stuck on an issue that isn't present
11:44 PM Tom_L: i hope so
11:44 PM Lcvette: I know so
11:44 PM Lcvette: This is a working system already
11:44 PM Tom_L: what will your cam put out for T60 ?
11:44 PM Tom_L: H what?
11:45 PM Tom_L: and if you put T60 into P3, H3 is still gonna have the old offset from the prior T3
11:45 PM Lcvette: Cam just calls t60
11:45 PM Tom_L: that's my concern
11:45 PM hazzy-lab: and hopefully G43 H60
11:46 PM Tom_L: yeah
11:46 PM Tom_L: and i'm not sure where the tool table stores H words for tools not currently loaded
11:46 PM Lcvette: Why would the H value follow a P#?
11:47 PM Tom_L: open up the tooltable file and have a look at it
11:48 PM Tom_L: T1 P1 D0.031200 Z-0.843959 ;#3 center drill T2 P2 D0.156000 Z-1.345600 ;5/32 twist drill
11:49 PM Tom_L: that one may not be valid, it's just one i had handy
11:49 PM Lcvette: Surely they didn't put values tied to a locational assignment?
11:50 PM Tom_L: i'm just saying you need to check and be sure how it works before you assume
11:50 PM Lcvette: That's like saying a diameter would be tied to p3
11:50 PM Tom_L: very likely
11:50 PM Tom_L: i'm not exactly sure how the tool table ties in to it all
11:51 PM Tom_L: and what exactly changes when pockets change tools
11:51 PM Tom_L: read the random changer part of that link i posted
11:52 PM Lcvette: I'll take a look, but none of that would make any sense to me
11:52 PM hazzy-lab: Tom_L: This is not a random changer
11:52 PM Tom_L: in a way it is
11:52 PM Tom_L: if T1 doesn't stay in P1
11:53 PM Tom_L: like i said, it's not something i've tested to verify
11:53 PM Tom_L: Random location tool changers swap the tool in the spindle with the one in the changer. With this type of tool changer the tool will always be in a different pocket after a tool change. When a tool is changed LinuxCNC rewrites the pocket number to keep track of where the tools are. T can be any number but P must be a number that makes sense for the machine.
11:53 PM hazzy-lab: No, the pocket T1 is in does not change on the fly, like it would on a random changer, Lcvette has to change it manualy
11:53 PM Lcvette: *if* that's the case
11:54 PM Lcvette: I'm scraping Linux
11:54 PM Lcvette: Because that's retarded
11:54 PM Tom_L: Fixed location tool changers always return the tools to a fixed position in the tool changer. This would also include designs like lathe turrets. When LinuxCNC is configured for a fixed location tool changer the P number is ignored (but read, preserved and rewritten) by LinuxCNC, so you can use P for any bookkeeping number you want.
11:54 PM hazzy-lab: Lcvette: You will be fine, what you are trying to do is very simpler and very doable
11:55 PM Lcvette: I agree
11:55 PM Tom_L: i'm not trying to make an issue of something that isn't, i've just not tried it
11:55 PM Lcvette: I can't imagine H and P being tied together
11:56 PM Tom_L: fair enough
11:56 PM Lcvette: P and T and T and H yes
11:56 PM Lcvette: There's no way they would have painted ATC users into a corner like that
11:57 PM hazzy-lab: But apparently P and T are not tied together on a non random changer, which seems silly
11:58 PM hazzy-lab: You may have to tell LCNC you are using a random changer, even though you are not
11:58 PM Lcvette: That may only be because of how we set it up
11:58 PM hazzy-lab: So that it reads the P value
11:58 PM Lcvette: Using m codes
11:58 PM Lcvette: And remap
11:59 PM Tom_L: i'm just saying to check it out. i don't think they would have painted you into a corner
11:59 PM Lcvette: By we I mean the smarter people who did it long before me..lol