#linuxcnc Logs

Jun 08 2018

#linuxcnc Calendar

12:30 AM IchGucksLive: morning from germany
12:33 AM fragalot: hi
12:33 AM IchGucksLive: im off 2 garden
12:33 AM IchGucksLive: weekend starting
12:33 AM IchGucksLive: many guests due to arrive
12:34 AM IchGucksLive: have a nice day dont break to many bits
12:47 AM hazzy-lab: gn8
02:31 AM Deejay: moin
04:40 AM RyanS: hm, I don't think my pencil die grinder as a toolpost grinder is too good for surface finish.. I mean I can grind 0.01 off a shaft diameter
05:39 AM Loetmichel: Hmmm... do you guys remember that i had a problem with my y axis skipping moves? I have it again...
05:40 AM Loetmichel: ... and the strange thing is: i tried different speeds, even different accelerations... its repeatable that it skips a move from Y21.475mm to 21.00...
05:40 AM Loetmichel: Teared my hair out over it... then i changed the 21.475 in the gcode to 21.5: wirks like a charm...
05:41 AM Loetmichel: what sorcery is THAT?
05:43 AM SpeedEvil: RyanS: sandpaper!
05:46 AM Loetmichel: ... had the same thing a while back, there it helped to just move the origin a bit...
05:46 AM Loetmichel: Is it possible that LinuxCNC "forgets" acceleration ramps under very certain circumstances???
05:47 AM Loetmichel: that has screpped not a very small amount of material by now, not to mention some mill bits...
05:47 AM Loetmichel: scrapped
05:49 AM Loetmichel: Nobody any idea?
05:49 AM XXCoder: no idea sorry :(
05:49 AM XXCoder: thats strange
06:03 AM RyanS: hmm, the bushing specs call for 20mm +0 -0.05 and the shaft is 19.99 so it's good, but its certainly not the recommend 0.8um roughness. looks more like 5um judging from pictures . give it some wet and dry and call it done?
06:03 AM Loetmichel: hmm, anybody think THIS welder will do for occasional TIGing 1,5mm sheet aluminium enclosures together (with reversed polarity)? -> https://www.ebay.de/itm/322024221932
06:04 AM RyanS: it's only for a ball turning tool so I can't imagine a rough finish would matter
06:05 AM Loetmichel: I dont mind a high rate of disappearing tungsten rods, it will only be used to tig the seams of small enclosures...
06:05 AM Loetmichel: occasionally
06:07 AM RyanS: a cnc tig welder!?
06:07 AM RyanS: oh, nvm
06:07 AM Loetmichel: RyanS: nope, but i have to weld the enclosure corners aafter CNC milling them ;)
06:08 AM RyanS: that would be cool though
06:08 AM jthornton: morning
06:08 AM Loetmichel: things like that: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16414&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
06:09 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16182&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
06:10 AM Loetmichel: (dont ask how long it took to mill the honeycomb air holes into the 4mm back plate... ;)
06:10 AM RyanS: i thought it was lasercut
06:10 AM Loetmichel: nope. Milled
06:11 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16411&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- you cant mill "steps"
06:11 AM Loetmichel: s/mill/lasercut
06:11 AM RyanS: vacuum table ?
06:11 AM Loetmichel: machine is a little small though: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16179&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
06:11 AM Loetmichel: yes
06:13 AM Loetmichel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqXauMOhWos <- maximum velocity i can do with 2mm 2 flute mill bit and .15mm DOC without it bending and getting out of tolerance
06:13 AM Loetmichel: the machine flexing, not the sheet metal ;)
06:38 AM enleth: Loetmichel: the ebay listing shows two different models, which are you asking about?
06:38 AM enleth: a DC TIG is more or less an MMA welder with a HF start circuit and a gas solenoid valve added on
06:39 AM enleth: the power section of those two welders in the photo is probably completely identical
06:40 AM enleth: Loetmichel: it will work just fine for pretty much anything within the amperage range as long as the material doesn't require an AC TIG
06:40 AM enleth: I mean, the TIG-200 model
06:40 AM enleth: ah, wait
06:40 AM enleth: you did ask about aluminum
06:40 AM enleth: Loetmichel: well, in this case, no, it most likely won't do
06:41 AM RyanS: wtf, igus plain bearings wear out more with a too smooth surface than too rough
06:41 AM enleth: Loetmichel: unless you want shitty, ugly welds that are hard to grind into something decent looking
06:41 AM syyl: the demonstrations of igus on tradeshows teached me that their bearings are best lubricated with a mixture of water, dirt and grit :D
06:42 AM syyl: enleth, dc aluminium with reversed polarity gives very nice welds
06:42 AM syyl: its a real process, not just a hack ;)
06:43 AM syyl: https://youtu.be/H_DwA0vzKXI
06:44 AM syyl: https://youtu.be/b1dCZyH_NBI?t=8m40s
06:44 AM enleth: syyl: on a shit this thin, I'd expect it to either underpenetrate and make a weak weld, or perforate the material
06:44 AM enleth: *sheet
06:44 AM enleth: derp
06:45 AM RyanS: mr tig said it's not as pretty as AC
06:45 AM syyl: i guess, if the fitup is perfect
06:45 AM syyl: and you do only a fusion weld
06:46 AM syyl: it will work fine
06:47 AM enleth: maaaybe with a heat spread backing, to be able to use amperage that would definitely perforate unsupported 1.5mm alu and make sure it penetrates well
06:48 AM enleth: but doing enclosures with a backing doesn't sound very comfortable for the last couple of welds
06:48 AM RyanS: Dc- spends more time cleaning aluminum and you need oversized tungsten but yeah I guess there is only enough amps for thin stuff?
07:07 AM Beachbumpete1: Morning LinuxCNC
07:10 AM XXCoder: hey beach
07:13 AM Beachbumpete1: hey
07:26 AM XXCoder: was thinking randomly, any of you guys ever work for boeing lol
07:30 AM jthornton: a riding buddy worked for boeing in St Louis till he retired
07:31 AM jthornton: he was there just long enough to get his job back after vietnam
07:33 AM XXCoder: cool just wondering about working there lol
07:37 AM jthornton: I'm sure it's changed since he worked there, he ran a manual turret lathe
07:41 AM XXCoder: yeah lol
07:42 AM XXCoder: boeing is hiring hard now
07:42 AM XXCoder: was wondering if could go there for pay bump but then boeing means much harder to get job if laid off
07:44 AM jthornton: why is that?
07:44 AM XXCoder: higher pay but lesser skills needed
07:47 AM jthornton: finally got that damn shower pan set yesterday... now on to the surround
07:47 AM XXCoder: awesome! :D
07:50 AM RyanS: speaking of Boeing, what tolerance does aerospace measure to?
07:51 AM XXCoder: it... varies a lot lol
07:51 AM XXCoder: I ave seen +.0005" - 0 and I have seen .03 (pretty rare)
07:52 AM enleth: ah crap, I am screwed with those bearings
07:52 AM enleth: McMaster Carr does not have anything that fits the dimensions I measured
07:53 AM enleth: that's pretty much as if they didn't exist
07:53 AM RyanS: i wouldn't fly with 0.03 lol
07:53 AM XXCoder: its fine depends on where
07:54 AM RyanS: the seat cushions might cut it at that tolerance
07:55 AM XXCoder: lol
07:56 AM RyanS: hmm I was expecting closer tolerance than 0.0005" .. like 1 micron
07:57 AM XXCoder: .0005" is... tiny. lol
07:57 AM XXCoder: I set mic to that and I cant see the gap.
07:57 AM XXCoder: paper is much thicker than that
07:58 AM enleth: anyone here with a large imperial ball bearing catalog handy?
08:03 AM RyanS: hmm, I think in metric 0.01 should be measurable with a basic mic. where on earth do they use 0.001 mm mics?
08:07 AM enleth: hazzy-dev: well guess what, H&W posted a backgear assembly repair video two weeks ago and while they only provided their own SKUs in the description, at one point the guy flips over the bearing packaging with the label side facing the camera
08:07 AM enleth: hazzy-dev: stopped at just the right frame, it's readable
08:08 AM enleth: turns out it's a metric bearing after all, and my measuremens were off because the part of the sleeve and shaft closer to the bottom are actually relieved slightly
08:25 AM Loetmichel: enleth: it ws my understanding that DC TIG works well with aluminiumm if you reverse the polarity and can live with a hig tungsten burnoff?
08:25 AM Loetmichel: also i dont care about weld strenght as long as its conductive and i get no "slot anennae" at the corners
08:26 AM Loetmichel: the enclosures i do are not for physical strength but EMI shielding
08:27 AM gregcnc_: tolerances are only as needed by design
08:27 AM gregcnc_: a diesel pump has much tighter requirements than most parts on an aircraft
08:28 AM gregcnc_: aircraft are all about tracability
08:28 AM gregcnc_: you lose a cert on a lump of metal that cost thousands and it's scrap
08:31 AM RyanS: i guess it depends on what part of the aircraft too
08:33 AM gregcnc_: sure, some components will be tighter than others
08:33 AM gregcnc_: I worked at a place that made valves and actuators I don't remember anyhting ridiculous for tolerance
08:36 AM Loetmichel: gregcnc_: i once rebuilt a warning beacon on a cessna because the otiginal was no longer aviable as a spare... german FAA guy was totally fine with it... "thats about 10 time brighter than the original... passed!
08:37 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5344
08:37 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5347
08:38 AM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/hajo/rotatingxxl.avi
08:38 AM Loetmichel: :-)
08:39 AM gregcnc_: Looks good
08:39 AM Loetmichel: 15*3W led instead of 1*21W tungsten filament ;)
08:40 AM Loetmichel: its a model plane lighting module and a bit of a "resized" head.
08:48 AM RyanS: is this a bad idea? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soBPKhxpaBg
08:49 AM gregcnc_: bad how?
08:51 AM RyanS: surface grinders cut with the side of the wheel and much faster feed rate
08:51 AM gregcnc_: yes
08:51 AM gregcnc_: blanchard grinder works this way
08:52 AM gregcnc_: i've done similar but on small parts. terrible z axis feeding makes it just barely useful.
08:53 AM RyanS: I was thinking of doing it, lock the z gibs
08:59 AM gregcnc_: cnc router puzzle kit https://www.bobscnc.com/products/e3-cnc-engraving-kit
09:07 AM Rab: Aww man, that's depressing to see.
09:08 AM Rab: MakerBot went from laser-cut plywood to folded sheet metal, and increased rigidity 10x...did Make:rs learn nothing?
09:11 AM Rab: Fortunately there's a healthy $5 piece of MDF to hold everything together.
09:13 AM flyback: wtf
09:14 AM flyback: anthony bourdain killed himself
09:16 AM Tom_L: RyanS, sheetmetal pieces were around .030 ish
09:16 AM Tom_L: alot of stuff was +0 -.0005
09:17 AM Tom_L: but some of the sheetmetal we cut was digitized from mylars
09:17 AM Tom_L: flyback when?
09:19 AM flyback: it'
09:19 AM flyback: on the news now
09:19 AM Tom_L: i see
09:19 AM flyback: hung himself
09:19 AM flyback: this sucks :(
09:19 AM flyback: I really enjoyed his show
09:19 AM Tom_L: yeah
09:20 AM flyback: work bbl
09:29 AM hazzy-dev: enleth: Thats great! Glad you were able to figure out what bearing it was. Is it readily available?
09:30 AM Tom_L: they're probably matched or something
09:41 AM enleth: hazzy-dev: 6908RS, not dirt cheap but standard and available
09:53 AM hazzy-dev: enleth: Heh, depending on how reliable you need the machine to be: https://www.vxb.com/6908RS-Bearing-40x62x12-Sealed-p/6908rs.htm
09:56 AM Roguish: hazzy-dev: pretty lite duty bearings.....
09:58 AM gloops: well, dunno if anyone took notice of my babbling about a planer roller, but the rubber sleeve i fitted (radiator bagging) works like a dream
09:59 AM gloops: so, if ever youre desperate for a rubber drive roller re-skinning, 1mm undersize radiator hose works a treat lol
10:01 AM enleth: hazzy-dev: I ordered some already, ZEN brand, looks like legit german stuff
10:02 AM hazzy-dev: enleth: Great!
10:03 AM Rab: gloops, I would be worried about inconsistent thickness, but glad it worked out.
10:03 AM hazzy-dev: Roguish: Light duty?? Load ratings are the same as name brands, but quality is probably not as good
10:04 AM enleth: usually I get japanese KYK bearings for no other reason than that I like their red seals, but I already had an order open for a bunch of other bearings and the supplier did not have KYK 6908 so I got that
10:04 AM Rab: I tried to rebuild a pinch roller from a studio tape deck with layers of heat shrink tubing...that did not work out.
10:04 AM gloops: its not so bad for a planer Rab, the rollers themselves are sprung - it keeps the wood flat to the bed as it passes through so doesnt affect the cut
10:04 AM Rab: Ahh, got it.
10:04 AM gloops: few few pieces ive passed through are perfect, no slipping or juddering
10:05 AM Roguish: It's a thin section. ID vs OD vs width
10:11 AM gloops: thats one machine that can go back under the bench anyway, rest of the day the war on crap goes on
10:17 AM gregcnc_: if it was design with that size, there isn't much you can do to change it
10:31 AM hazzy-dev: Roguish: Ah right :) I was surprised how many of the bearings in the BP are like that, the back gear bearings on a j-head are really thin section
10:33 AM hazzy-dev: I guess at the time these machines were designed BB were still thought of as an alternative to sleeve bearings, so had thinner sections than we are used to now
10:33 AM gregcnc_: they don't have to be any bigger than they need to be?
10:34 AM gregcnc_: if a 6900 series will handle the loads, there is no reason to design with a 6300 series
10:36 AM enleth: Roguish: there's two of those, with spacers and a locking nut, pressed into a steel sleeve
10:36 AM enleth: Roguish: they seem to be plenty enough for what they do
10:37 AM hazzy-lab: gregcnc_: right, but now it seems most designers use 6200 or 6300 whether they need it or not, I guess maybe because they are used in higher volumes and are cheaper?
10:37 AM enleth: using larger bearings would mean making the backgear change sleeve thicker
10:37 AM gregcnc_: in some cases, maybe
10:38 AM gregcnc_: cost is a factor, and more common bearings can be cheaper, but when the size influences other aspects of the design, decisions
11:08 AM gloops: not sure what youre suppose to do with that https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/milling-machine-2-axes-machine/282993664305?
11:08 AM gregcnc_: coors light in the UK?
11:10 AM gloops: yeah, surprising where stuff ends up
11:10 AM gloops: how do you use it? no height adjustment
11:10 AM gregcnc_: what ever it is, it's for a very specific job
11:13 AM enleth: gregcnc_: there might have been a Z axis on a column inserted into the hole in the middle piece
11:14 AM gloops: something missing from that post holder, i bet whatever it was cranks up
11:24 AM IchGucksLive: hi
11:24 AM IchGucksLive: gloops, laser 2d
11:24 AM IchGucksLive: cutter
11:24 AM IchGucksLive: plasma
11:24 AM IchGucksLive: all no z
11:24 AM gloops: that machine looks a bit small for that though Ichs
11:25 AM IchGucksLive: its just a freek that offers
11:25 AM IchGucksLive: as we all know 10.000 mashines sold per wek everyone thinks he can get money< out of its rail
11:26 AM IchGucksLive: the YT channel is toping on this issues
11:26 AM IchGucksLive: All quiet here as the chat is not public
11:26 AM IchGucksLive: irc is not the fav com media
11:26 AM gloops: yes lots of people making ornaments and signs with wood now lol
11:27 AM IchGucksLive: 2,2kw at lessthen 300
11:27 AM IchGucksLive: and all free 3d
11:27 AM IchGucksLive: so there is a need
11:27 AM IchGucksLive: carpenders housing stuff
11:27 AM IchGucksLive: all coordinated tracing
11:28 AM gregcnc_: what percentageof those machines are making stuff
11:28 AM IchGucksLive: 98
11:28 AM gloops: gregcnc a good percentage will never go into any kind of serious production
11:28 AM IchGucksLive: 2 percent lost on mounting
11:28 AM IchGucksLive: electronic setup
11:29 AM IchGucksLive: serious less then 5 i guess
11:29 AM gloops: you dont need a little stepper machine to compete now, you need a full blown workshop machine, ultra fast
11:29 AM IchGucksLive: as i see so many posting mailing with tiny problems they are stuck in
11:29 AM IchGucksLive: VF3
11:30 AM gloops: the laser people in the forums are complaining, the little stuff they were doing nicely with is being driven down to peanuts prices
11:30 AM IchGucksLive: i guess the older maho 500 with philips232 are a real good start point
11:30 AM gregcnc_: what ichs?
11:31 AM IchGucksLive: gloops, you cand compete with a china 100W tube at 24/7
11:31 AM gloops: little wooden signs in the bargain shop this morning £1 each
11:31 AM IchGucksLive: gloops, did you see the BBc report from indonesia
11:31 AM IchGucksLive: they got 4 cnc running 24/7
11:31 AM gloops: no dont think so ichs
11:32 AM IchGucksLive: 3USD a day
11:32 AM gloops: how fast? 600 ipm
11:32 AM IchGucksLive: making china boxes
11:32 AM gloops: 3 dollars a day for the workers?
11:32 AM IchGucksLive: i guess for all
11:32 AM gloops: per family
11:32 AM IchGucksLive: power is eleagel from UN
11:33 AM IchGucksLive: steppers are cooled
11:33 AM IchGucksLive: dust all over
11:33 AM IchGucksLive: lowest production cost high outcome
11:33 AM IchGucksLive: all on M3
11:33 AM gloops: yes, no wages, no health and safety, no insurance
11:34 AM gloops: raw materials - very cheap
11:34 AM IchGucksLive: im off for today so many guests arond here familie may need all hands on deck
11:34 AM gloops: have a nice day
11:35 AM IchGucksLive: oriental wood chiped direkt outside the shop
11:35 AM IchGucksLive: chemicals open next door
11:35 AM IchGucksLive: to make them look like 200years old as in egy<pt
11:35 AM IchGucksLive: Gn8
11:35 AM gloops: yes £60 a cubic foot here
11:36 AM gloops: however, we can still play smart
11:42 AM fragalot: miss0r: well.. ONE of the 55° cutters i ordered arrived.. not the one I wanted the most, but it's something ... right?
11:43 AM fragalot: miss0r: also. how would you mount this if you want to be able to use the full bottom face to deck off the whole dovetail in one go? :P https://photos.app.goo.gl/lVpzZBJ9mCYhRjb12
11:43 AM fragalot: Tom_L: ^ 55° cutter
11:48 AM Rab: Drill and tap an arbor to add an angled grub screw. The grub screw puts pressure on a key which engages the slot in the cutter.
11:49 AM Rab: If that won't hold it, and you're still alive, rig up another arbor with an expanding locking collar.
11:51 AM Rab: Or, y'know, expand that chamfer on the bore into an actual countersink, and add a flat head fastener.
11:51 AM Rab: Seems like the key is still mandatory in all scenarios.
12:12 PM * Loetmichel just got his 1999 BMW 318i convertible back from the mechanic.. "please check whats to do to not fail the next street legal check in oktober"... good news is that it has no rust that would fail it anywhere...
12:14 PM cradek: does body rust make a car fail inspection?
12:16 PM Loetmichel: ... bad news: Coiovers are not written into the papers and are SO low that they will not be able to be written in, ABS computer had 17 errors logged. half a dozen wawrning lights from the dash are missing... Shift stick is sawn off and put back in SO badly that all the levers are bent, something underneath the car is ratting at every gear shift or bump in the road, accelerator pedal is broken
12:16 PM Loetmichel: off one side, clutch pedal is wonky, too, shifts sideways when pressed all the way down. seatbelt shortener explsives not connected-> airbag system fault, both door interior leathers are lose and fall off.... that'll be a TAD expensive... especially the ABS and suspension change.
12:17 PM Loetmichel: cradek: rusted THRU on load bearing parts will fail the car with german TUEV... even something the engineer can poke his screwdriver thru qualifies.
12:19 PM Loetmichel: ahm abnd i have to change one fog light (brocken glass) and adjust all headlights/foglights.
12:19 PM gloops: excessive corrosion near load bearing points yeah, floors, if the body of the car is structural that too - sills for example
12:19 PM gloops: got very keen on rust here
12:19 PM * hazzy-lab is glad we don't have inspections here
12:19 PM cradek: I wish we had inspections on everyone's car but mine
12:20 PM gregcnc_: we test for emmissions only
12:20 PM gloops: its one of those things, you know its a good thing to have but you dont like it when your car fails heh
12:21 PM hazzy-lab: We do emissions here, but only on cars newer than 25yrs old, so I don't have to do them :)
12:21 PM gloops: tbh i think a lot of it is about getting older cars off the road to keep the market for new cars healthy
12:21 PM hazzy-lab: gloops: YES!
12:22 PM gregcnc_: 96 and later here
12:22 PM gloops: they got us all onto diesels here, diesel fuel was always cheaper than petrol - strangely enough the price of diesel shot up
12:23 PM gloops: now theyre saying diesels are bad - new regs coming to get shut of old diesels
12:23 PM cradek: so dirty, though
12:23 PM roycroft: biodiesel is very clean
12:23 PM roycroft: and modern diesel vehicles burn petrodiesel very cleanly
12:24 PM gloops: so we were regulated off leaded petrol, then regulated off unleaded onto diesel, now diesels are being stopped
12:24 PM gregcnc_: revolt
12:24 PM gloops: nobody will revolt
12:25 PM cradek: > A study performed by the Chonbuk National University concluded that a B30 biodiesel blend reduced carbon monoxide emissions by approximately 83% and particulate matter emissions by roughly 33%. NOx emissions, however, were found to increase without the application of an E.G.R. system.
12:25 PM cradek: huh it is markedly better in some ways
12:25 PM gloops: car fails MOT - you cant tax it or insure it
12:25 PM roycroft: there's nothing wrong with a goal of a zero-emissions vehicle fleet
12:25 PM gloops: cops stop you with no paperwork, car gets crushed you get a big fine
12:25 PM cradek: lead in fuel was a shameful capitalist disaster that went on for far too long
12:26 PM gloops: they checked the soil in the garden of an old house at the side of some busy lights here, several pounds of lead per square whatever
12:27 PM gregcnc_: pounds?
12:27 PM gloops: yes
12:27 PM gregcnc_: mine it
12:27 PM hazzy-lab: cradek: But lead was needed in older engine to prevent pinging, it is the advance in engine tech that enables use of non leaded fuels
12:28 PM gloops: lead is about £0.50 a kg at the scrap yard
12:28 PM gloops: nah maybe £1
12:58 PM CaptHindsight: https://ibin.co/34HsTI709hOX.jpg floral t-slot....
01:08 PM Loetmichel: hazzy-lab: acutally even stone age engines can run unleaded if you change the valve seats to hardened ones
01:10 PM CaptHindsight: https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwc/tls/d/1500w-15kw-air-cooled-cnc/6611315878.html
01:10 PM CaptHindsight: haven't seen these with the mount as part of the spindle in this size
01:14 PM hazzy-lab: Loetmichel: Yes, on low compression engines that works, but at higher compressions the pre-ignition with non-leaded fuels can blow holes in the top of the pistons. I've seen it happen
01:15 PM hazzy-lab: One engine had the pistons blown thru on all 6 cylinders meaning it happened over just a few revolutions, ouch!
01:18 PM miss0r: Goodevening
01:23 PM CaptHindsight: https://icdn2.pushauction.com/0/0/4c1f8a06-e99f-4c6d-9426-0d660fa5f62b/ad664d88-3a88-449a-bfc0-f9103eb81512.png
01:24 PM CaptHindsight: torque free at lower rpms https://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-9KW-220-380V-ATC-Spindle-Motor-ISO30-BT30-China-HSD-Spindle-11KW-VFD-1000Hz/122359169694
01:27 PM CaptHindsight: Accuracy: 0.008 / 300mm for a spindle?
01:27 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.ebay.com/itm/BT30-ATC-Mechanical-Spindle-Unit-Automatic-Change-Power-Head-Pneumatic-Cylinder/153025522248
01:27 PM CaptHindsight: how is that a spec
01:31 PM Loetmichel: hazzy-lab: which old (enough for non-hardenen valve seats) has a high compression?
01:32 PM Loetmichel: modern engines that have injection computers sense the preknock and act accordingly (by lowering turbocharge pressure or shifting valve timing or by changing fuel quatitiy
01:34 PM * Loetmichel once had a clean hole in a 50ccm 25kmh "mofa" i tuned by adding a big electric (heater) blower from a VW bug in between the carburetor an the engine block... made for 90kmh and 15kRPM instead of 25kmh and 5000krpm ;)
01:34 PM CaptHindsight: that wasn't his point
01:34 PM hazzy-lab: Loetmichel: The valve seats aren't generally the problem, pinging (pre-ignition) is, and that is a big problem when running most older engines on non-leaded fuels
01:34 PM Loetmichel: ... but only for a short stroll( maybe 50km in sum)... then i had a half piston sized hole in the piston
01:35 PM Loetmichel: hazzy-lab: thats what i question. Engines old enough for not having fuel injection computers usually have low compression anyways so no danger of pre-ignition
01:36 PM CaptHindsight: pre emissions high compression engines needed high octane or had to be run really rich to not burn holes in the domes of the pistons
01:36 PM Loetmichel: i have driven some old cars from the scrapheap with pure methanol and nitromehtane... and they didnt "ping" that much at all
01:36 PM CaptHindsight: Loetmichel: high compression was common in the US pre 1980
01:36 PM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight: ah, us big blocks. i see
01:37 PM Loetmichel: dont have them here in germany
01:37 PM CaptHindsight: big for the EU
01:37 PM Loetmichel: Possible that they have that problem
01:37 PM Loetmichel: never encountered them here
01:37 PM CaptHindsight: we grew up with 6+ liter 10:1 or higher compression engines
01:38 PM CaptHindsight: 8:1 was common for an economy car
01:38 PM Loetmichel: up to 13:1 is pretty safe from "pre-pinging" without lead AFAIR
01:39 PM Loetmichel: does a petro engine still run with 8:1?
01:39 PM CaptHindsight: lead was counted on for the valves, higher octane was needed to reduce ping ..
01:39 PM Loetmichel: interesting
01:40 PM CaptHindsight: or you'd have to retard the ignition timing
01:40 PM Loetmichel: yes, thats what ECUs du usually when they detect prepinging
01:40 PM CaptHindsight: yeah it's all automatic now
01:41 PM CaptHindsight: back then it was a vacuum switch and a set of springs in the distributor
01:41 PM Loetmichel: "flex fuel" ECUs ;)
01:42 PM Loetmichel: friends had an old military MAN truck... that had a diesel engine that was designated as "any fuel engine"
01:42 PM Loetmichel: it could run on pure alcohol as a diesel
01:42 PM CaptHindsight: I ran some E85 for a few tanks recently on my OBD1 (94) to clear out water soluble gunk
01:42 PM Loetmichel: or on "heavy crude oils"
01:42 PM Loetmichel: as long as it was thin enough to pass the filters and burned you could drive the MAN with it ;)
01:43 PM CaptHindsight: had less power and low idle
01:44 PM CaptHindsight: Loetmichel: does all your fuel (besdies diesel) contain some ethanol there?
01:44 PM Loetmichel: it ran on a mix of petrol, transformer oil, waste oil from cars, vegetable oil waste from french fries shops.... ;)
01:45 PM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight: 95 and 98 petrol does contain 5%, then there is E10, and the diesel has not ethanol but RME in it. upt to 10% iirc
01:46 PM CaptHindsight: similar here, 10% is in everything with 15% and up to 85% as options
01:46 PM CaptHindsight: up in Wisconsin I can get ethanol free 91 octane
01:47 PM CaptHindsight: or racing gas 104-108 octane for 4-5x the price
01:50 PM Loetmichel: CaptHindsight: we have E85 here as well
01:50 PM Loetmichel: but only on a few fuel stops
01:50 PM CaptHindsight: or 100LL aviation fuel
01:50 PM Loetmichel: maybe 1% of them
01:50 PM fragalot: 'sup
01:50 PM CaptHindsight: Loetmichel: all the newly built gas stations have E85
01:51 PM fragalot: E85 is the greatest thing ever
01:51 PM Loetmichel: we do have 100++ "racing" fuel here at the gas stations, but its useless for normal cars IMHO
01:51 PM fragalot: waste product with a lower calorific value sold at a higher price
01:51 PM fragalot: what's not to love
01:51 PM Loetmichel: fragalot: its sold at a much lower price here than regular 95
01:51 PM Loetmichel: the E85 stuff ;)
01:52 PM Loetmichel: WHEN you can get it that is
01:52 PM Loetmichel: i know ONE gas station in about 30km around here where i can get it
01:52 PM fragalot: I meant the 10% ethanol version of 95
01:52 PM CaptHindsight: so the pumps can get confusing, diesel, e85, e15, regular, mid, super, kerosene, ethanol free mid grade, ....
01:52 PM fragalot: I haven't seen E85 locally
01:52 PM Loetmichel: one out of one or two dozen gas stations around here
01:53 PM fragalot: unless E85 is the one they replaced the 95 with :p
01:53 PM CaptHindsight: and of course the minivan with 6 kids and a horse are blocking the pump you want
01:53 PM fragalot: https://photos.app.goo.gl/0lL9tv0G8jf7yKyY2 <= anyone want to guess whether this would work? :P
01:54 PM CaptHindsight: fragalot: paper shredder?
01:54 PM pcw_mesa: finger trimmer?
01:54 PM fragalot: skim cutter to true up the worlds' most crooked RF45
01:55 PM fragalot: the alternative is that I EDM a pocket so a standard 27mm to ISO40 holder fits
01:57 PM Loetmichel: fragalot: wanna do dovetails ins teel?
01:57 PM fragalot: Loetmichel: true up dovetails in chinese cast iron
01:57 PM fragalot: eg. they're already there, but they are out of whack
02:01 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.travers.com/angle-dovetail-end-mills/c/297660/
02:01 PM fragalot: CaptHindsight: 55° with a minimum 1" flute length
02:02 PM fragalot: so I bought that HSS one in the picture, and am waiting for a carbide one to arrive next week
02:02 PM fragalot: was hoping i'd get it today but alas the world is against me
02:03 PM CaptHindsight: indexable?
02:04 PM fragalot: brazed
02:04 PM fragalot: i'm not buying a 1.25" tall indexable 55° dovetail cutter for a single use
02:05 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/55deg-machinetool-dovetail-why-so-popular-239190/
02:06 PM fragalot: indeed
02:07 PM CaptHindsight: reshape your 60 to 55 :)
02:07 PM CaptHindsight: or similar
02:07 PM fragalot: I don't have to
02:07 PM fragalot: it's already a 55
02:07 PM CaptHindsight: hard to find
02:07 PM fragalot: both this one, and the carbide one I bought
02:08 PM fragalot: very hard to find :P
02:08 PM CaptHindsight: so was the frequent solution
02:08 PM fragalot: especially in larger sizes
02:09 PM CaptHindsight: around here you would send the print to the toolmaker and add the $500 to the project cost
02:09 PM fragalot: not if it's your own personal project you wouldn't :D
02:10 PM CaptHindsight: yeah, but why things end up this way
02:14 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/40mm-45-55-60-degrees-6F-carbide-Angle-Milling-cutter-Dovetail-groove-Milling-cutter-Processing-copper/32825678143.html
02:14 PM fragalot: too small
02:14 PM Loetmichel: fragalot: chinese cast iron? is ther such a thing? i thought chinese casts were 1/3 air, 1/3 casting sand and 1/3 leftovers brushed up from the machine shop floor ;)
02:15 PM fragalot: Loetmichel: you forgot the hard spots from MIG welding the /really/ large pores
02:15 PM Loetmichel: indeed ;)
02:15 PM CaptHindsight: even Harvey jumps for 50 to 60 deg
02:15 PM Loetmichel: chinese cast aluminium isnt that much better though...
02:16 PM CaptHindsight: the Chinese do that to lower the weight to save on shipping :)
02:16 PM CaptHindsight: what you don't see you can't complain about
02:16 PM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=539&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- 60mm wide aluminiuzm desk vise i milled "true"...
02:19 PM fragalot: Loetmichel: that's to dampen vibrations
02:19 PM Loetmichel: :-)
02:21 PM enleth: any interesting hints on how to couple a shaft with an 8mm keyway to a bushing with a 10mm keyway?
02:22 PM fragalot: stepped key?
02:22 PM enleth: I can't widen the keyway on the shaft, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be asking
02:24 PM gregcnc: https://www.huyett.com/Products/Power-Transmission/Keystock/Step-Keystock
02:24 PM fragalot: I love how they have an "inch or metric" dropdown on the left with only "Inch" as an option
02:24 PM enleth: now to find one locally
02:24 PM gregcnc: make?
02:24 PM fragalot: just mill one
02:25 PM enleth: it's for spindle transmission on the mill
02:25 PM enleth: but I guess I can butcher one with an angle grinder, use that to mill a proper replacement
02:27 PM gregcnc: ah no mill at hand
02:27 PM fragalot: get creative with your lathe
02:27 PM fragalot: :P
02:28 PM enleth: fragalot: no collect chuck yet
02:28 PM enleth: ah, wait
02:28 PM enleth: I still have this tiny proxxon "mill"
02:28 PM enleth: it can take very conservative mild steel cuts
02:29 PM fragalot: there you go then
02:33 PM gloops: make an insert
02:34 PM fragalot: that would make it bear unevenly
02:34 PM fragalot: keys have to be symmetrical
02:35 PM gloops: how do you mean?
02:35 PM gloops: actually 2mm is pretty fine for an insert
02:36 PM gloops: make a new bush
02:36 PM fragalot: it would need to be 1mm, and be fitted on both sides
02:36 PM fragalot: otherwise the key will be misaligned and ruin the key slot in both shafts
02:37 PM gloops: what i did with 2 of my pulleys was make an insert with a flange, tapped the flange to bolt to the pulley
02:38 PM gloops: just have to make a new 'bush'/'adaptor'
02:45 PM gloops: well i was going to instal windows on an old box but i cant be bothered now
02:45 PM gloops: the hard drive isnt connected and i forget to find the cable
03:30 PM gloops: not so many linuxcnc fans on facebook these days
03:30 PM gloops: its strange, the usual objections - too difficult, linux is hard etc
03:31 PM gloops: theyre trying to build a cnc machine lol
03:32 PM gloops: but want to do it learning as little as possible about it as they can
03:32 PM gloops: press button - machine makes intricate 3D object
03:47 PM hazzy-lab: gloops: they're spoiled by 3D printers
03:47 PM hazzy-lab: There's a lab at tech that's working on AI based CAM, the idea is it will learn how to machine a part and then you can just load the STL file and hit start, kinda like you can with a printer
04:00 PM gloops: oh yeah, thats going to be reality, no doubt
04:02 PM Tom_L: fragalot, nice
04:02 PM Tom_L: looks about like my 45deg one
04:05 PM enleth: hazzy-lab: doesn't sound that far-fetched with a beefy 5-axis machine
04:05 PM enleth: and I mean *beefy*
04:06 PM enleth: tuning an AI becomes easier with each variable removed using other means
04:07 PM fragalot: given that we have good toolpath generators, it doesn't even have to be THAT beefy
04:08 PM CaptHindsight: beefy or more vealy?
04:08 PM fragalot: the main task of the AI would be to decide what tool to use when and where for optimal results
04:08 PM enleth: I bet they're using this approach as a stepping stone to something that would work with more constraints
04:08 PM hazzy-lab: enleth: They already have the AI taking feedback from the machine, and if it hits a hard spot it slows down etc
04:09 PM enleth: fragalot: I'd say multiple setups (for parts that need it) are the hard, arbitrary part
04:10 PM hazzy-lab: it is not just generating a gcode program, but actively controlling the machine and getting feedback from it
04:10 PM enleth: hazzy-lab: so they have the same system doing CAM and machine control?
04:10 PM CaptHindsight: AI for dealing with the "customer" that wants it yesterday for a lower price than what a Chinaco part would cost
04:11 PM gloops: alls youll have to do is show the machine what you want it to make - i.e take a photo
04:12 PM CaptHindsight: you can't take a photo and give it to a person to make
04:12 PM hazzy-lab: enleth: It is not CAM in the traditional sense, it is responding in real time to feedback from the machine, and it even has an AMBIT laster head on it so it can add material if it need too to get to the final shape
04:13 PM gloops: why would anyone want to make anything, if someone, or something else can make it for you
04:15 PM CaptHindsight: for most it would be cost
04:16 PM CaptHindsight: if they can save 2 cents they will make it
04:16 PM CaptHindsight: for a very small number of people it will be for better quality or some customization
04:17 PM cradek: for the pleasure of it?
04:17 PM gloops: and perhaps some deep rooted evolutionary compulsion..to build, to make tools, to create and invent
04:17 PM CaptHindsight: for makers it's so it can be in plywood and use some new broken software project
04:17 PM cradek: to gain skills? to become good at something?
04:18 PM CaptHindsight: to learn is another small group
04:18 PM gloops: cradek we wont need any skills
04:18 PM CaptHindsight: unfortunately that group is dwindling
04:18 PM gregcnc: really it's just a need to keep busy
04:18 PM cradek: well I enjoy being good at things
04:18 PM gloops: all we will need to do is sit, and do nothing
04:18 PM CaptHindsight: we who?
04:19 PM cradek: gloops: you need to go have a beer with your friends, asap
04:19 PM gloops: well, most people
04:19 PM CaptHindsight: most people just east sleep poop and make more people
04:19 PM gloops: what will need more people for?
04:19 PM CaptHindsight: depends on the people
04:20 PM gregcnc: that's easy these days. it used to be much harder
04:20 PM gloops: we wont need workers, or thinkers
04:20 PM gregcnc: just naps, people get crabby without them
04:20 PM CaptHindsight: sounds like you've been reading Discovery magazine
04:21 PM CaptHindsight: yet AI still can't get a car past a construction sign
04:21 PM gloops: lol, but it will ne reality
04:21 PM gloops: be
04:22 PM gloops: our only role will be to sit pondering what the point of being alive is
04:22 PM CaptHindsight: nah
04:22 PM gregcnc: as it always has been
04:22 PM CaptHindsight: you'll be kept busy oiling the gears for the ones in control
04:23 PM CaptHindsight: sitters and ponderers will be prosecuted
04:23 PM gloops: gregcnc well yes, but inbetween we had to fill many hours providing the food and shelter and so on, to keep us alive, all that will soon be over
04:23 PM CaptHindsight: uh huh
04:23 PM CaptHindsight: how old are you?
04:23 PM gloops: oh..late 40s
04:24 PM CaptHindsight: did you spend a decode or so in a coma or similar?
04:24 PM gloops: just my luck, i was born into the last generation of working human beings
04:24 PM CaptHindsight: so you've been watching the Discovery channel
04:24 PM gloops: i mean - 1940s
04:25 PM CaptHindsight: good luck with that
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: increased productivity over the past 50 years has gotten us what?
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: 4 hour work days?
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: time to ponder?
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: time for the arts?
04:26 PM CaptHindsight: scientific study at home?
04:26 PM gloops: thats what buddhism teaches
04:27 PM gloops: satisfying desires only multiplies them
04:27 PM CaptHindsight: I prefer my opiates to be actual opiates
04:27 PM gloops: we will never have enough
04:27 PM gloops: we need to stop wanting
04:27 PM gregcnc: then why do you work?
04:28 PM gloops: custom i suppose
04:28 PM gloops: i was programmed to work
04:28 PM gregcnc: clearly nobody has to
04:28 PM gloops: to consume, to want
04:30 PM CaptHindsight: I wanted to be a corporate philosopher years ago or a poet for industry
04:31 PM gloops: a lot of social stigma attached to those roles
04:31 PM andypugh: The world definitely need smore Punjabi bagpipes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK-wHSqus9g
04:33 PM CaptHindsight: musical fusion
04:33 PM gloops: highlanders of the world unite
04:33 PM andypugh: gloops: Surely there can be only one?
04:34 PM gregcnc: how to tap https://www.instagram.com/p/BjrYGwwAHhd/
04:34 PM gloops: one highland andypugh?
04:34 PM CaptHindsight: I wish there was more of a crossover from rock into Middle Eastern traditional music
04:37 PM Deejay: gn8
04:37 PM gloops: Rock the Casbah https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ9r8LMU9bQ
04:37 PM andypugh: How not to tap: https://photos.app.goo.gl/UJNssuTGnyKpFETF3
04:39 PM andypugh: (Only for gloops: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooN9xdAgi5w )
04:39 PM cradek: ha
04:40 PM andypugh: cradek: one for you: https://photos.app.goo.gl/xPpOfPFPjgzO5EGE2
04:40 PM andypugh: “Charlotte’s Web” inspired clock.
04:41 PM cradek: heh cool
04:41 PM cradek: does it work? somehow because they only conduct one way?
04:42 PM gloops: right im with you now andypugh hehe
04:42 PM cradek: oh I see the corners aren't all quite soldered together
04:42 PM andypugh: Indeed
04:43 PM andypugh: ULN2003 in the base and some constant-current diodes and it should work.
04:43 PM andypugh: But I think I need the frame to be rather bigger really
04:44 PM CaptHindsight: have a pic of it "ON"?
04:44 PM andypugh: Not yet, no drive circuit yet
04:44 PM CaptHindsight: ah yours in the making
04:44 PM gregcnc: what is the voltage per filament?
04:45 PM andypugh: 70V
04:45 PM andypugh: So it’s slightly dangerous too.
04:48 PM CaptHindsight: gloops: updated Clash or Led Zepplin Kashmir sounds
04:48 PM CaptHindsight: but maybe not as dance trance as Beats Antique
04:50 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: I worked with some lower voltage electroluminescent materials maybe 10 years ago
04:50 PM cradek: huh 7446 is only 30v. Which is the one used for neon 7 segments?
04:50 PM CaptHindsight: it must be cheaper by now
04:51 PM andypugh: When I last looked at EL it was quite high voltage
04:51 PM andypugh: (I am not concernead about the 70V to be honest)
04:52 PM cradek: DS8880
04:53 PM CaptHindsight: these were lower voltage materials that are now used for displays like organic LED's
04:53 PM andypugh: cradek is being cryptic again
04:53 PM CaptHindsight: but these were really cheap for things like moving graphics on a cereal box
04:53 PM CaptHindsight: patent hell kept it all off the market
04:54 PM cradek: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NATIONAL-SEMICONDUCTOR-DS8880N-INTEGRATED-CRT-NOS-INVENTORY-SURPLUS-16-PIN-DIP-/253663245699
04:54 PM cradek: there's a chip useful for driving displays like that
04:54 PM cradek: it was in my head because I just replaced one in one of my timing machines that has neon 7 seg displays
04:54 PM DaViruz: in one of your time machines :O
04:55 PM cradek: I bought 2 from this guy, 1 worked
04:55 PM cradek: 1 was the number I actually needed
04:57 PM andypugh: I would need to test if 1.5mA is enough
04:57 PM andypugh: Bear with me
04:59 PM hazzy-lab: gregcnc: I don't care about that tap, did you see that PLANNER in the background!! Ye Gods
04:59 PM gregcnc: if you look at his profile most of the video are running the planer
05:01 PM syyl: haha daichihira is always a great thing to look at
05:01 PM syyl: lots and lots of large machining
05:02 PM hazzy-lab: gregcnc: He just gained a follower :D
05:03 PM Rab: andypugh, Microchip/Supertex make a whole family of high-voltage shift registers intended for driving EL displays. I've used their HV5622 for nixie tube clocks: https://www.microchip.com/wwwproducts/en/HV5622
05:04 PM andypugh: 1.5mA looks like plenty.
05:04 PM andypugh: https://photos.app.goo.gl/NBnEqdUVqATRHjZM9
05:04 PM Rab: Unfortunately I can't find a way to show the whole family on Microchip's dumb website.
05:05 PM Rab: Although the Similar Devices tab shows a bunch.
05:07 PM andypugh: cradek: Unfortunately the only source seems to be PLC Center, and they want $2.90 per chip (which is fine) and $218.29 postage (which is not)
05:07 PM andypugh: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/232732993417
05:20 PM andypugh: cradek: I found some equivalent chips in NL (SN75480N, drop-in replacement). I think I will get them, they seem ideal.
05:23 PM flyback: ISN'T THAT the truth Rab
05:23 PM flyback: so many companies with God level chips fail because their web site frustrated everyone to death
05:24 PM flyback: bbl
05:26 PM andypugh: Rab: Thanks, but the chips that cradek found also do current control, and that’s a real plus here.
05:29 PM cradek: sweet, glad I could help
05:29 PM cradek: that shipping cost doesn't seem quite right
05:33 PM Rab: Item location is in Willingboro, NJ...shipping is $9.90 USD for me. :P
05:33 PM andypugh: Yes. But even allowing for the ocean that is in the wat, $200 to ship an IC is crazy.
05:33 PM Rab: You could contact the seller and see if they'll quote an airmail envelope or something.
05:34 PM andypugh: I feel an antipathy to PLC Center
05:34 PM andypugh: (Partly because they tend to fill up every eBay search with the same generic picture)
05:48 PM andypugh: Looking to pad out an order on a model-making web site I found a link to an interesting material, and a video of someone using it to make costumery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA2uumZplR8
05:48 PM hazzy1 is now known as hazzy
05:49 PM Rab: I don't know anything about that outfit, but $2.90 isn't going to pay for someone to take and post a unique picture for every one of their 6,195 results for 'ic chip'.
05:50 PM Rab: On second thought, these do seem individually pictured: https://www.ebay.com/dsc/Business-Industrial/12576/m.html?_ssn=plccenter&_armrs=1&_from=R40&LH_TitleDesc=1&_nkw=ic+chip&_trksid=m570.l1313&_odkw=ic+chip&_osacat=12576
05:55 PM andypugh: They use this photo an awful lot: https://www.ebay.com/itm/391749008409
05:57 PM andypugh: (They do seem to have got better)
06:23 PM DocHopper: Yo Linux CNC, looking at getting some new clamping for my mill and I've only used side-gripping clamps to secure a workpiece previously. How do hold down clamps compare, and are they used for the same functions?
06:24 PM tiwake: hold down clamps?
06:24 PM DocHopper: https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-clamps/=1d783t0
06:25 PM tiwake: never used such before
06:26 PM DocHopper: tiwake: What style do you use?
06:26 PM tiwake: might be nice for certain kinds of production stuff
06:27 PM tiwake: standard machine vice with either hard jaws or soft jaws
06:27 PM tiwake: kurt
06:27 PM tiwake: orange is really really good though
06:27 PM tiwake: https://www.maritool.com/https://www.maritool.com/Orange-Vises/c454_455_477/index.html
06:28 PM DocHopper: tiwake: Those are well outside my budget.
06:28 PM tiwake: kurt then
06:29 PM DocHopper: tiwake: Vices are outside of my price range.
06:29 PM tiwake: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/09219007
06:29 PM tiwake: then save up until it is
06:29 PM DocHopper: tiwake: Okay, I need to do work now.
06:29 PM tiwake: don't buy crap
06:30 PM DocHopper: tiwake: I don't have an option to not buy "Crap", in this instance, I need good "crap".
06:31 PM tiwake: you can't get good crap for less than kurt prices
06:31 PM DocHopper: tiwake: Off of this page, what would you choose? https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-clamps/=1d7889y
06:32 PM tiwake: DocHopper: these are always good to have https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-clamps/=1d789ut
06:32 PM tiwake: 1/2-13 is standard size for most commonly found mills
06:33 PM tiwake: I use such a lot
06:33 PM DocHopper: Sorry, the link isn't working correctly, can you send me the item #?
06:33 PM tiwake: also https://www.ebay.com/itm/KURT-6-VISE-D675-Made-in-U-S-A-NICE/192561909657?hash=item2cd5958f99:g:SSsAAOSw~U5bGYqR
06:33 PM Roguish: dochopper: http://www.shars.com/
06:34 PM Roguish: buy value, not smelly crap, or gold plated crap.
06:35 PM tiwake: Roguish: interesting...
06:35 PM CaptHindsight: .seen t12
06:35 PM theCockerel: Sorry, I haven't seen t12 around.
06:35 PM CaptHindsight: anyone seen or heard from t12 in the past year?
06:36 PM CaptHindsight: he trickled down to being around here only on the weekends
06:36 PM DocHopper: Roguish: Thanks for the suggestion of brand, but I need a low cost clamping option. From that brand, is there a clamping setup that can get me going for less than $150?
06:36 PM tiwake: shars is not a brand from what I can tell
06:37 PM DocHopper: tiwake: Thanks for the ebay link, but I work on pieces around 12".
06:37 PM CaptHindsight: Shars has a few branded items
06:37 PM tiwake: DocHopper: something like this http://www.shars.com/products/workholding/clamping-component/1-2-3-8-16-52pc-clamping-kit
06:38 PM tiwake: or rather, http://www.shars.com/products/workholding/clamping-component/5-8-1-2-13-52pc-clamping-kit
06:38 PM CaptHindsight: I have that kit
06:38 PM DocHopper: tiwake: Yes, that is the first item on the mcmaster car link I previously posted.
06:38 PM CaptHindsight: got a few different size kits on special from Shars
06:39 PM Roguish: https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Clamping-Workholding-Positioning/Clamps-Clamping-Components/Clamping-Sets-Kits?navid=12108234
06:39 PM CaptHindsight: clamps and similar are OK, I don't trust them for any measuring devices
06:39 PM tiwake: ooo I could use one of these http://www.shars.com/products/workholding/collet-fixtures/5c-collet-block-set
06:39 PM DocHopper: CaptHindsight: And that setup style works well. There's plenty of clamping force using a face clamp like that to safely mill the edges and the like?
06:40 PM Roguish: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06944540
06:40 PM CaptHindsight: DocHopper: those are standard issue for manual mills
06:40 PM CaptHindsight: been around forever
06:40 PM tiwake: my work place does not supply hardly any tools, inspite of it having two mills and 7 lathes
06:40 PM Roguish: tiwake: the 5C clollet set is good. have one. very useful, but ya have to have 5C collets.....
06:40 PM DocHopper: CaptHindsight: Great! Thanks, I'm low on my machining theory.
06:41 PM tiwake: Roguish: I'd rather get the 5C collets from maritool
06:41 PM DocHopper: Roguish: Thanks, though work is unlikely to buy from anywhere but Mcmaster.
06:41 PM CaptHindsight: DocHopper: watch some youtubes on how to set them up
06:41 PM Roguish: mcm is great, but pricey, and does not always have everything.
06:41 PM tiwake: https://www.maritool.com/Collets-5C-Collets-5C-Collet-Sets/c21_152_230/p2297/5C-Round-Collet-set-with-37pcs-in-32nd-Increments/product_info.html
06:41 PM DocHopper: CaptHindsight: Thanks for the advice, I've been using these for months: https://www.mcmaster.com/#8958a64/=1d78ebi But they just strip out like crazy.
06:42 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-setup-accessories/=1d78ehj
06:42 PM CaptHindsight: DocHopper: time for better grade stuff
06:42 PM DocHopper: CaptHindsight: Exactly what I'm doing.
06:43 PM DocHopper: CaptHindsight: Did you have a specific item in mind? Or just that basic kit we've been linking?
06:43 PM CaptHindsight: mcmaster only goes up so far in quality
06:43 PM CaptHindsight: maritool ^^^
06:43 PM tiwake: CaptHindsight: when I get a house (very soon) I'll start saving up to build a controller for my hardinge CHNC
06:43 PM DocHopper: This is for work, so the lowest of low quality.
06:44 PM CaptHindsight: well there the rub, quality vs keep stripping
06:44 PM CaptHindsight: quality vs cost
06:45 PM CaptHindsight: DocHopper: all you can do to save on cost and retain quality is look for good used on ebay or similar
06:45 PM DocHopper: CaptHindsight: I get paid by the hour, and they make the purchasing calls. So it's the cheapest starting kit I can find.
06:46 PM CaptHindsight: i haven't stripped my Shars clamps
06:46 PM CaptHindsight: but they are an hours drive from me so I can complain in person if they ship me junk
06:46 PM DocHopper: Maritool doesn't seem to have fixturing clamps, just vices.
06:48 PM tiwake: a vice is a kind of fixture clamp...
06:49 PM DocHopper: tiwake: It very much is.
06:49 PM DocHopper: Just 100x my budget.
06:49 PM DocHopper: So these don't come with studs or leveling mounts. https://www.mcmaster.com/#4997a21/=1d78hkt
06:53 PM DocHopper: While I don't have great tooling or fixturing here, I'm grateful that I get to learn subtractive manufacturing! Thanks for everyone's help. CaptHindsight tiwake Roguish
06:53 PM Roguish: good luck.
06:55 PM tiwake: is this made in china or USA? http://www.shars.com/products/workholding/vise/6-690v-cnc-milling-machine-vise-0-0004-1
07:03 PM CaptHindsight: tiwake: I have two of those, they are made in China
07:04 PM tiwake: figures
07:07 PM CaptHindsight: https://postimg.cc/image/egk0ujegr/ 5 years of abuse on them
07:08 PM tiwake: aluminum is not abuse
07:08 PM tiwake: lol
07:08 PM CaptHindsight: see that slot in the table?
07:09 PM CaptHindsight: thanks mach3
07:09 PM tiwake: oh that little tiny thing? blerf... all the machines where I work are soooo beat up
07:09 PM andypugh: DocHopper: I mainly use the “standard” hold-down set: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12mm-T-Slot-Clamp-Kit-for-Mills/232012732145?epid=1977606683&hash=item36050956f1:g:~jIAAOSwuHFbCKCv and I would say that every mill needs one. (in the correct size for the T-slots)
07:09 PM tiwake: machining anything straight is basically impossible
07:09 PM CaptHindsight: lower left corner, 35 years and not a scratch, mach3 one week
07:10 PM tiwake: all the machines are wore out so much
07:10 PM tiwake: PO's me
07:10 PM tiwake: but they keep paying me, so whatever
07:10 PM DocHopper: tiwake: Not at all, it just takes patience, and as I said, I'm an hourly.
07:10 PM CaptHindsight: i have a bridgeport with holes filled with welds on the table
07:10 PM tiwake: thats the vice I have
07:10 PM DocHopper: andypugh: Thanks for letting me know, you've never had any severe problems with a set of that design?
07:11 PM andypugh: Then I have a cheap screwless vice: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Workholding/Machine-Vices/Precision-Tool-Vices-Type-2
07:11 PM CaptHindsight: tiwake: Tom_L has a Shars as well, afaik it still works fine for him
07:11 PM CaptHindsight: i think Pete got a bad one that lifts the work as it clamps
07:12 PM andypugh: Well, they pretty much have to work, but clearly you need to find other ways if you need to machine the entire top surface.
07:12 PM CaptHindsight: was a different style or older model
07:12 PM Roguish: made in China is not necessarily bad. Shars, for instance, is large enough to have some QC control. others (ebay,,,,,,) probably not so.
07:13 PM CaptHindsight: Roguish: I don't trust their gauges or measuring tools but surface plates and tool holders have been OK
07:13 PM andypugh: But that sort of set is like the basic starting point, and can be adapted to other things too, like this: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Lng3PXhzswGvDx8N7
07:14 PM CaptHindsight: bend the tubes until well crushed for improved clamping force
07:15 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: Indeed, work hardened slightly :-)
07:15 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: how many years has it been since you cast those parts?
07:15 PM andypugh: 2
07:15 PM CaptHindsight: only
07:16 PM tiwake: hmm... I am looking for a set of standard parallels
07:16 PM tiwake: does not look like shars has them
07:16 PM CaptHindsight: they do
07:16 PM CaptHindsight: I have a set or two
07:16 PM CaptHindsight: OK, nothing special
07:17 PM CaptHindsight: i have two sitting on the vise in the pic
07:17 PM tiwake: not seeing any
07:18 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.shars.com/1-8-steel-parallels
07:18 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.shars.com/products/measuring/parallel-sets
07:18 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: Actually that photo was taken 21st December 2015 (at 23:33)
07:19 PM CaptHindsight: have this set http://www.shars.com/products/measuring/parallel-sets/1-8-steel-parallels-tin-coated-finished
07:19 PM tiwake: why would you want them plated like that?
07:19 PM andypugh: Bling!
07:20 PM tiwake: to make machining great again
07:20 PM CaptHindsight: oxidation maybe
07:20 PM CaptHindsight: probably was in stock that day
07:20 PM Tom_L: tiwake, i'm rather pleased with my shars 4" vise
07:20 PM CaptHindsight: sometimes i just drop in to the counter and see what they have that day
07:21 PM andypugh: For use in a milling vice you might want to look at wiggly parallels: https://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/8pr-Wavy-Parallell-set-90810.html
07:21 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/Final/Vise_parts/Vise2.jpg
07:22 PM Tom_L: i extended my slot the other day so i can work off either side of it now: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/Mill_Steel/Assembly/Final/Vise_parts/table_slot2.jpg
07:22 PM CaptHindsight: i have some 1.2.3 and 2,4,6, blocks and some angles...
07:22 PM Tom_L: i didn't build a traditional mill per se
07:22 PM CaptHindsight: good for not precision things
07:22 PM tiwake: andypugh: generally I use two parallels, put one size smaller on the outside and have something in the middle pushing them against the jaws
07:23 PM CaptHindsight: same for the Shars V-blocks
07:23 PM andypugh: Wiggly ones are good for very thin part
07:23 PM tiwake: can be
07:23 PM Tom_L: yeah i wish i could find a small set of wavy parallels
07:24 PM CaptHindsight: I've used their granite surface plates for machine bases that had sub micron accuracy
07:24 PM CaptHindsight: for the machine
07:24 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.shars.com/products/measuring/parallel-sets/1-2-to-1-1-2-wavy-parallel-set
07:25 PM Tom_L: those are 6" though aren't they?
07:25 PM CaptHindsight: overall length 4-5/16
07:25 PM CaptHindsight: but outtah stock
07:25 PM andypugh: If you can find them, this patttern of V-block can be held in a milling vice more readily than the normal ones: http://www.flexbar.com/shop/pc/PRECISION-V-BLOCKS-CLAMPS-1-1-2-quot-p3108.htm (as can this alternative style: https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0324802 )
07:26 PM CaptHindsight: gregcnc: did you say you tried some of the durabar?
07:27 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.dura-bar.com/
07:27 PM Tom_L: not for nine hundred bux.... not me
07:27 PM andypugh: Ah, here is a thing that is collossally useful, every shop should have them: http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collet-Fixtures/ER32-Collet-Blocks
07:27 PM tiwake: I need most of this stuff, however I need a toolbox first else this stuff gets stolen... also I need to get a house first
07:28 PM Tom_L: andypugh get those in square and hex etc
07:28 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: I use Durabar a fair bit
07:28 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: they are nearby
07:29 PM Tom_L: gawd i must be tired. i didn't even see the hex next to the square :(
07:29 PM CaptHindsight: was thinking about it for some straight edges
07:30 PM Tom_L: tiwake, get your priorities straight... live in the shop
07:30 PM andypugh: CaptHindsight: I made a lathe saddle gib from durabar, about half-way down this page: http://bodgesoc.blogspot.com/2015/08/rivett-lathe-slideway-refurb-as.html
07:30 PM CaptHindsight: save time commuting
07:30 PM andypugh: It was a lot of material to remove.
07:30 PM tiwake: Tom_L: don't think I've tried? I can't afford to build a shop, the structure will cost too much with my budget
07:31 PM tiwake: need about $80k more than I can afford
07:32 PM CaptHindsight: andypugh: is Ford also cutting back to just the Mustang and SUV's in the UK?
07:33 PM CaptHindsight: or is that just the USA
07:33 PM andypugh: I think that story has been a little misreported
07:33 PM CaptHindsight: why I'm asking
07:33 PM tiwake: mustang and the focus... truck line will be the same, donno about SUVs or the lincoln brand
07:34 PM andypugh: I think that they only plan to drop saloon cars. MPVs stay along with SUVs
07:34 PM tiwake: lincoln and mercury
07:34 PM andypugh: In Europe the Focus, Fiesta, Mondeo carry on (but not much longer for the Mondeo)
07:35 PM tiwake: it does not matter, they are all crap design, along with every other car manufacturer
07:35 PM andypugh: S-Max, C-Max, B-Max and SUV seem to be where the market is going
07:35 PM andypugh: tiwake: I agree. Motorcycles are far better.
07:36 PM tiwake: andypugh: only because they can't hold all the electronics that cars do
07:36 PM CaptHindsight: Ford Speedster twinV?
07:36 PM tiwake: there is no physical space to put all that crap, so it simply does not exist, making motorcycles less annoying
07:37 PM andypugh: I like “all that crap”. It keeps me in a job.
07:37 PM tiwake: there are plenty of other jobs
07:38 PM andypugh: Not that pay like this one does :-)
07:38 PM tiwake: one of these days I'll get around to making my own car properly
07:39 PM andypugh: Electric ?
07:39 PM tiwake: no
07:39 PM Tom_L: andypugh, that's why they keep adding more crap... to stay employed
07:39 PM andypugh: No way you will meet emissions regs wiithout a ton of CPU and sensors otherwise
07:39 PM tiwake: Tom_L: guized as "features"
07:40 PM tiwake: andypugh: I made it a point to move where there is no such emissional restrictions
07:40 PM Tom_L: driving the cost up
07:40 PM tiwake: it is not sustainable
07:40 PM andypugh: You think its a _good_ idea to fill the atmoshere with _your_ mess?
07:41 PM tiwake: mess?
07:41 PM tiwake: what mess?
07:42 PM Tom_L: i'm not opposed to it for emissions but i don't need my ass heated or some electronic device talking to me or stopping for me
07:42 PM Tom_L: if i'm that stupid i shouldn't be driving
07:42 PM andypugh: I can see where this is going. I might as well cut straight to abuse. You imbecile.
07:43 PM tiwake: please enlighten me as to how I should be living by spending more money for things that do nothing for anyone
07:45 PM Tom_L: i'm rather annoyed with the autostop feature they've come out with lately
07:45 PM Tom_L: no way to optionally disable it either
07:46 PM tiwake: break the warranty and reprogram the ECU
07:46 PM CaptHindsight: ECU's are great for the purpose of reducing emissions, but when they go too far and throw codes for things just to tap into your wallet is another story
07:46 PM andypugh: tiwake: Just call me a rude name and we can move on. I am not going to convince you that emissions regs are useful, and you are not going to convince me otherwise.This conversation is pointless.
07:47 PM tiwake: ah but its not if there is an audience
07:48 PM andypugh: Tom_L: You can normally turn off stop/start with a button on the centre console. Once you get used to it I quite like it. In time having the engine running when you are not moving seems daft.
07:48 PM tiwake: thankfully most people in this channel are mostly sane though
07:48 PM Tom_L: no, i checked into it on this vehicle and was informed that it can't be disabled
07:49 PM CaptHindsight: how long do those starters last on the cars that turn the engine off after a few second stop?
07:49 PM Tom_L: it pisses me off every time i pull in the drive to wait for the garage door to open to have the car shut off then immediately restart upon the door opening
07:49 PM CaptHindsight: been meaning to find one to convert for some older cars
07:49 PM Tom_L: how can that be beneficial?
07:50 PM Tom_L: CaptHindsight, 'they say' they've been beefed up along with the engine bearings etc to acomodate the extra starts
07:50 PM CaptHindsight: melted starters are the plague of 75 and earlier
07:52 PM CaptHindsight: though carbureted engines can take longer to start
07:55 PM Tom_L: seriously though, we've put ppl on the moon with far less technology
07:56 PM methods_ is now known as _methods
07:59 PM Tom_L: i see reasons why they do what they do but as a consumer not all of it makes sense
08:07 PM Tom_L: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/06/the-shocking-truth-about-start-stop-systems/
08:07 PM Tom_L: clearly against them
08:10 PM Tom_L: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109687_dont-start-stop-systems-wear-out-your-cars-starter
08:10 PM Tom_L: apparently some systems use supercaps to help the battery
08:12 PM CaptHindsight: been using these in older cars https://www.optimabatteries.com/en-us/yellowtop-deep-cycle-battery
08:12 PM CaptHindsight: they don't seem as reliable as they used to be
08:13 PM Tom_L: show me something that is
08:13 PM CaptHindsight: who makes a rugged auto battery these days?
08:13 PM Tom_L: apparently lead acid aren't up to the task anymore
08:14 PM Tom_L: that'll likely double the replacement cost
08:14 PM Tom_L: but it's not on the MFG to care about that
08:16 PM CaptHindsight: http://www.odysseybatteries.com/auto.htm
08:18 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.northstarbattery.com/products
09:09 PM gregcnc: capthindsight I like Odyssey
09:13 PM andypugh: Tom_L: An article from 2011 might be out of date
09:16 PM andypugh: Current systems have a module on the battery that monitos current in and out, measures the battery voltage changes while the engine is off, and basically looks after tha battery to avoid over or under-charging,
09:16 PM CaptHindsight: https://4xspower.com/
09:17 PM andypugh: (And the VW scandal has changed _everything_ )
09:17 PM CaptHindsight: out to lunch
09:22 PM CaptHindsight: 9200 POWER9 44-core CPUs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summit_(supercomputer)
09:23 PM CaptHindsight: 200 petaflops and almost runs Windows 10 quickly
09:24 PM tiwake: screw windows
09:25 PM andypugh: Fun with numbers:
09:25 PM hendrik_cnc: hello guys, is there a way to have multiple motion.probe-inputs without wiring them together? i have a tool length probe and a 3d touch probe
09:25 PM andypugh: Botox is the most poisonous substance known. A few kg could kill every person on earth.
09:26 PM andypugh: It is also the most expensive product on earth: 70 trillion dollars per kg
09:26 PM andypugh: So luckily nobody can afford to use it to kill everyone on earth.
09:26 PM CaptHindsight: like inkjet ink
09:27 PM andypugh: (a typical cosmetic injection is few ng )
09:29 PM XXCoder: andypugh: people inject em ino face lol
09:30 PM XXCoder: those same people is anti-vx due to "toxins"
09:30 PM andypugh: Yes, they do. And they inject ng (10E-12 kg)
09:32 PM XXCoder: yeah. antivax tend to not cre about poisons being dosage not what it is
09:32 PM XXCoder: botox is nearest thing to "pure poison" as person can't touch less than lethal level lol
09:44 PM andypugh: The thing I don’t understand is _why_ botulinum make botox. What does it use it for?
09:45 PM XXCoder: as poison actually i think
09:45 PM XXCoder: get rid of others
09:45 PM XXCoder: oxygen was one of earliest poison lol
09:50 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.springer.com/cda/content/document/cda_downloaddocument/9781493902606-c1.pdf?SGWID=0-0-45-1442007-p176372429
09:51 PM CaptHindsight: Chapter 2
09:51 PM CaptHindsight: Botulinum Toxin as a Clinical Product:
09:51 PM CaptHindsight: Manufacture and Pharmacology
09:54 PM CaptHindsight: cGMP, FDA and is one of six Category A Bioterrorism Agents defined by CDC
09:55 PM CaptHindsight: you'd need to have FDA approved farts to even work in the room where its made
09:56 PM XXCoder: dang
09:57 PM XXCoder: considering how small it needs to kill everyone, not surpised actually
10:00 PM CaptHindsight: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-10-26/inside-fort-botox-where-a-deadly-toxin-yields-2-8-billion-drug
11:39 PM rebecca: anyone used inductive proximity sensors for endstops?