#linuxcnc Logs

Mar 25 2018

#linuxcnc Calendar

01:23 AM fragalot: hi
01:26 AM XXCoder: yo
01:27 AM miss0r: mornin
01:55 AM XXCoder: hey miss0r hows things
01:55 AM miss0r: Good good. Working on my software for this thing. What are you up to?
01:56 AM fragalot: "what software, all it has to do is move back and forth. all you need is a relay!" </customer_service_tech>
01:56 AM miss0r: smart guy this customer service tech... I would hire
01:57 AM fragalot: I wouldn't - I'd shoot myself in the foot. :P
01:58 AM miss0r: :]
01:59 AM gloops: i had a neutral/earth fault, which i diagnosed and found by myself, not bad to say i still dont actually know what happens with that
01:59 AM miss0r: as with all these things, I have a nag for overcomplicating things :D but I think this has a far way to go before I can consider it 'overly complicated'
01:59 AM fragalot: miss0r: :-)
01:59 AM gloops: whether that was the fault causing my problems i dont yet know as got to solder spindle connection back on
01:59 AM miss0r: gloops: You should consider also grounding the 0vdc from your power supplys
01:59 AM XXCoder: just editing ebook to my standards
02:00 AM XXCoder: it was really really bad convert from pdf to epub
02:00 AM gloops: miss0r wheres that? is it a terminal/pin?
02:00 AM fragalot: gloops: the negative side of the DC output
02:00 AM fragalot: connect that to ground
02:00 AM fragalot: or earth, depending on what you call it in the UK
02:01 AM fragalot: and don't consider doing it, do it.
02:01 AM gloops: the output to the drivers?
02:01 AM miss0r: fragalot... now now now. It all depends on the type of the PSU
02:01 AM miss0r: gloops: The power supplies you have feeding the drivers. You should connect the GND/0VDC terminal from those to ground
02:02 AM gloops: ill check them, dont think i noticed a ground connection
02:02 AM miss0r: gloops: You wouldn't have
02:02 AM gloops: they have run before without that
02:02 AM miss0r: I want you to connect the (-) on the DC OUTPUT side to ground
02:02 AM gloops: ok ill look at it
02:03 AM miss0r: it helps to medigate noise as well
02:03 AM gloops: when i boarded the garage out i left a light cable with bare ends trailing the floor - assuming that was the neutral to ground issue, causing the vfd to be 'live' even when switched off, hopefully not damaged it
02:05 AM miss0r: You are aware that the VFD has some relatively huge capasitors inside of it, storing voltage for a while after you power it off?
02:05 AM miss0r: Do you have a photo of that control box of yours? i'd like to take a look
02:07 AM gloops: yes, that is what i assumed it was, i was getting a light shock from the switch cables when the vfd was switched off, however it wasnt the caps draining, i also noticed the 12v led on the bob was pulsing dimly when vfd off, - remove the vfd plug from the socket - light goes out, switch wires are dead
02:08 AM gloops: apparently a neutral/ground fault in the garage circuits could cause that, and i found one
02:08 AM miss0r: the 'bob' ?
02:08 AM fragalot: breakout board
02:08 AM miss0r: the neutral -> ground shortage can do no such thing!
02:08 AM gloops: ahh, you dont want to see a photo of that miss0r, its only an amateur job hehe
02:08 AM miss0r: Still curious
02:09 AM gloops: miss0r well fixing the bare wires cured it
02:09 AM miss0r: Take a voltmeter and measure in an outlet between ground and neutral. Unless you have other issues in your electrical installation, you should see very little
02:09 AM miss0r: I don't like the sound of that. Not even a little
02:10 AM fragalot: I have no neutral
02:10 AM fragalot: i'm not sure what it's like in the UK
02:10 AM gloops: other things that have been happening - drivers acting strange, just dying light off, then back on, severe intereference from spindle to z motor
02:10 AM miss0r: fragalot: What the hell are you talking about? Are you running a two phase outlet system ? :D
02:11 AM fragalot: I get three phase 240Vac
02:11 AM miss0r: gloops: I can hear you have issues.
02:11 AM fragalot: eg. no ground, all wires are "live"
02:11 AM miss0r: fragalot: no shit?
02:11 AM gloops: what other things could cause it to be live when switched off?
02:11 AM fragalot: I shit you not.
02:12 AM fragalot: gloops: I think it is time you phoned a real electrician to inspect your house wiring; if you don't know what you're doing, that stuff is dangerous.
02:12 AM miss0r: gloops: If you have a wireing diagram, send it to me. or make one the best you can, and send it to me. I will have a look at it. Also send me a few pictures of the control box with some different angles on it
02:12 AM gloops: yes i could die, but its nearly done now
02:12 AM fragalot: cnc side playing with 48Vdc is fine, but when you start finding live leaks to ground,...
02:13 AM miss0r: well... 48 volts dc will kill you, if you have damp hands :D
02:13 AM gloops: that was a bad mistake yes fragalot, rushing see, forgot all about that cable
02:13 AM miss0r: gloops: Do as I asked or phone in an electrician.
02:14 AM miss0r: sorry to get all bossy here, but you have me somewhat worried
02:14 AM gloops: im only running it from an extension to a socket in the house atm
02:14 AM miss0r: Ahh... the wonderfull extension cable with build in 'no humans must die-addon' ?
02:15 AM miss0r: please do as I asked ;)
02:15 AM gloops: everything will be just fine
02:15 AM * fragalot is curious why the "differential" switch didn't trip
02:16 AM gloops: the circuit breaker has been tripping
02:16 AM fragalot: ok so at least that still works :)
02:17 AM miss0r: fragalot: 'some' installations have a PEN installation, where you basically tie the ground and the neutral togetger in the breaker box(mostly because theres no real ground rod available). This is done BEFORE the differential breaker. but more often than I care to admit, the electrician gets confused with this, and makes that connection AFTER the breaker, leading to no faulty current on a neutral to ground short
02:17 AM gloops: it was a new box a few years back, the house wiring is up to date
02:18 AM miss0r: gloops: please do consider drawing up a wiring diagram for me, so I can look at what you've done. That couldn't possibly hurt?
02:18 AM fragalot: miss0r: PEN is highly uncommon here for commercial installations
02:19 AM miss0r: I get that, with no neutral'n all :)
02:19 AM fragalot: :D
02:19 AM gloops: missor its the basic wiring plan for mach3 b/o board, drivers psus etc, all this was working fine before with same routing, i will draw it later maybe, if i have no more problems and im still alive later, i think the fault is cured
02:20 AM fragalot: miss0r: even with the houses that get 3x 400V+N it's still a TT grid
02:20 AM miss0r: Alright. I will be none the wiser looking at an online drawing. I want YOU do draw it up the way you've installed it. so I may catch any errors
02:21 AM miss0r: fragalot: sure. same goes for here in Denmark. But there are exceptions
02:21 AM gloops: the only thing thats changed since previous wiring is that im now using a metal box and shielded cable
02:21 AM miss0r: Have you grounded the box yet?
02:21 AM gloops: yes
02:22 AM miss0r: does that extension cord of yours have a ground wire connected in it?
02:22 AM gloops: that did not improve anything in fact it seemed worse - but then i found the bare wares
02:22 AM gloops: yes extension is grounded
02:22 AM miss0r: Humor me and send me a picture of that box
02:23 AM gloops: tbh i dont think youd glean a lot of info from looking at it haha
02:23 AM miss0r: gloops: I've made industrial process installations for the past decade, I might be able to give you some insight
02:23 AM fragalot: same here
02:23 AM miss0r: as I said, humour me
02:24 AM gloops: well i cant test anything until the spindle is wired back on, if the problem persists after that i will be back with pics
02:24 AM fragalot: I got pictures of installations throughout the day for remote support, you can tell A LOT from a picture
02:25 AM miss0r: gloops: workie/no workie, please take me up on my offer. It will cost you nothing to have both fragalot & me use our combined brainpower (almost that of an infant child, combined) for free.
02:25 AM fragalot: miss0r: I think you're overestimating how much brain power you're bringing to the table, here
02:25 AM miss0r: touche
02:26 AM fragalot: gloops: I'll show you mine if you show me yours?
02:26 AM gloops: the posts i read about neutral/earth did seem to describe the symptoms id been having, but anyway i dont want to hog the talk in here with a minor issue
02:26 AM miss0r: gloops: Some of the errors I have heard you mention sounds an awful lot like sounds like something leaking to ground
02:26 AM gloops: live leaking to ground?
02:27 AM miss0r: it does sound like it. OR your DC leaking to ground, that would be proven by connecting the GND/(-)/0VDC terminal from your power supplys to ground
02:27 AM gloops: if we assume the 240 light feed was the leak, the live to the cnc is terminated by the socket switch
02:28 AM gloops: the neutral isnt terminated by the socket switch
02:28 AM miss0r: If i were you I'd take a voltmeter and check what potential you have between neutral and ground in your outlet socket.
02:28 AM miss0r: Hope it is very close to nothing
02:28 AM gloops: or..when i switch the cnc off at the plug, there should be no live to it
02:29 AM gloops: missor so just cross the neutral/earth with voltmeter
02:29 AM miss0r: Yeah, that is a very good start
02:29 AM miss0r: Tell me what number you get
02:30 AM gloops: ill be going out to it in a bit, ill check that
02:30 AM miss0r: when you have measured that, connect the control box, and measure what you have between ground and the (-)/GND/0VDC terminal on your psus
02:31 AM gloops: inlet side?
02:31 AM miss0r: outlet side. I want to know what you have from your negative DC terminal and ground
02:31 AM gloops: right
02:32 AM miss0r: and it would be nice with a picture, so I can tell you what else to measure (I don't know your setup)
02:32 AM gloops: btw any info i see in here is only considered to be what an electrician would do, nobody is giving me advice personally lol
02:32 AM gloops: if i do die
02:33 AM miss0r: That is why you need electricians advice, to try'n prevent that!
02:33 AM miss0r: safety squints & mother on speed dial
02:34 AM gloops: i will be slightly concerned myself if these problems persist because they werent there before and the wiring before was just a jumbled heap on a peice of plywood
02:35 AM fragalot: that's why you ground all the metal parts
02:35 AM miss0r: gloops: do you have a picture with you of the electricals?
02:35 AM gloops: everything works absolutely fine, the movement, xyz, fine, its onlt when the spindle is actually turning
02:35 AM fragalot: because if there is a problem, it will SHOW that there is a problem
02:36 AM fragalot: gloops: did you connect the shielding on both sides of the spindle cable?
02:36 AM gloops: nope
02:36 AM gloops: im going to check the spindle socket, it isnt insulated inside, there might be an arcing or drain to the frame there
02:37 AM gloops: or not to the frame, between spindle cables, its a metal jack
02:38 AM fragalot: be a dear and connect it on both sides to ground
02:39 AM gloops: that will cause a ground loop wont it?
02:39 AM fragalot: for analog reading signals, you wouldn't want to do this, no
02:39 AM fragalot: but in this case you're trying to keep a very noisy high power signal contained
02:39 AM miss0r: it all depends. Have you grounded the frame?
02:40 AM gloops: i havent grounded the frame as such, its bolted to the floor
02:40 AM miss0r: o.0
02:40 AM miss0r: Ground the frame with a substantial wire to the control box :]
02:40 AM fragalot: wouldn't hurt to ground it too
02:40 AM gloops: i did stick a car jump lead from box to frame which seemed to stop the problems, but only briefly
02:41 AM fragalot: that means there's a signal floating somewhere
02:41 AM gloops: i dont think this is a shielding issue, its too bad
02:41 AM fragalot: loose wire, missing ground, DC- floating about
02:41 AM fragalot: it could even be the shielding of the VFD causing high voltage arcing
02:41 AM gloops: i will check absolutely everything
02:42 AM gloops: as i already have
02:42 AM fragalot: i've learned not to connect the shielding on the other side when the system is running, even if it's connected o nthe other side
02:42 AM fragalot: there is a LOT of power being induced in it
02:42 AM miss0r: gloops: to the list of stuff to measure, also measure between your control box and your frame
02:43 AM gloops: the spindle shielding - if i leave that ungrounded, the noise symptoms are less, if i touch it to the box instant increase in noise symptoms
02:43 AM fragalot: that means something else is wrong
02:43 AM fragalot: but the shielding must be connected to gnd on both ends
02:44 AM miss0r: That does sound like you get alot of bad stuff from something else through the sheilding. what does that look like if you ground the frame properly first?
02:46 AM gloops: ok, ill check flow from frame to box, i will also ground the frame properly, when i have ruled out dodgy spindle fitting, because that is something on my mind, i noticed when connecting it the inside of the jack is not insulated, wire could easily be touching the metal plug , if 2 are touching thats not good
02:47 AM fragalot: report back when you've completed your findings :)
02:47 AM miss0r: gloops: You should still ground the frame, no matter what the situation
02:47 AM gloops: i will yes
03:16 AM gloops: ive got 0.5v flowing from frame to box, psus - there is no ground on the output side, the ground is achieved by the metal box which is fitted to the metal cabinet, there is no reading from neutral on psu to metal cabinet
03:17 AM gloops: the o.5v could be the box earthing to the frame, if the frame is self earthing
03:20 AM gloops: or..something is leaking .5v on the frame, and its returning to ground
03:21 AM gloops: through the box
03:27 AM miss0r|office: Your frame is not self grounded
03:28 AM gloops: so current from the frame is running back to earth - the box, which is earthed
03:28 AM miss0r|office: 1. you would not fine a ground terminal on the output side of the psus, this is why you need to connect the NEGATIVE DC output to ground. i.e. one of the terminals you are already using to feed the stepper drivers, need to be connected to ground
03:29 AM miss0r|office: I want a physical wire from the frame to the control box
03:29 AM miss0r|office: 2. did you get a measurement between neutral & ground in your wall socket?
03:30 AM gloops: 0.5v could be noise being collected?
03:30 AM miss0r|office: Sure
03:30 AM gloops: not checked that yet, im still on extension, ill power the garage up and test the socket
03:30 AM gloops: 0.5v could also be lo signal, ill see if any change when something is moving
03:31 AM gloops: if it works from extension we can be sure its the garage wiring
03:31 AM miss0r|office: Indeed. do a masurement between NEGATIVE DC/GND/0VDC/GND on the output side of all the PSUs to ground
03:32 AM miss0r|office: I'm referring to ONE terminal, that might be called either of these names
03:32 AM gloops: there is no 0vdc on these psus, yes its just + and -
03:32 AM miss0r|office: alright. measure from - to ground
03:32 AM gloops: i have - 0
03:33 AM miss0r|office: and you should wire - to ground on all the psus, just for good measure
03:33 AM gloops: but remember, the casing acts as ground on these psus
03:33 AM miss0r|office: sure, but we are pulling the GND of the output side down, so you don't have a floating DC signal. This can help medigate some noise if there is any
03:34 AM gloops: ok ill do that
03:35 AM gloops: that 0.5v does seem pretty consistent, no wavering or anything
03:35 AM miss0r|office: I sould still add a good ground wire from the frame to the box ground
03:35 AM gloops: im going to before i do anything else
03:37 AM miss0r|office: Also, please take a picture of the wiring, box included. I'm not asking to mock you, I might just spot something
03:42 AM fdarling: I have a question about RS-485 (Modbus) control of a Hitachi VFD -- looking online it looks like you need to write a driver in C (seems a bit excessive) or use some MB2HAL driver that is meant to work with Classic Ladder. Do you know if the documentation is outdated and that there might be a simpler way? The VFD speaks standard Modbus and I know the coils/registers I need to write to and read
04:33 AM miss0r|office: gloops: Are you still alive and breathing?
04:41 AM gloops: yes, i am not marked to die today it seems
04:42 AM gloops: ive solder the connections to the spindle jack, double insulated with some earth sheathing, thats another potential cause eliminated, ground wire from frame, ill fire it up in a bit and see whats what
05:01 AM XXCoder: say hi to 90s! http://www.wilmccarthy.com/
05:02 AM miss0r: I dig that website :D
05:02 AM XXCoder: yeah im checking urls of ebook im editing
05:02 AM XXCoder: sadly few links I has to add note (Website does not exist now. 2018)
05:06 AM Deejay: moin
05:26 AM miss0r: Damnit! My air to air heatunit here in the shop just gave up the ghost. The ventilator shed one of its three wings on the outside module, because a plate of ice came loose and tilted into the fan, it seems
05:27 AM gloops: right, the lingering charge matter has gone, the noise problem is worse than ever, it seems as if the pwm is controlling the z motor haha
05:27 AM miss0r: Shattered the wing in 5 pieces. And I can only find 4. Even if I could find them all, I'm not sure it would do me any good to glue it
05:27 AM XXCoder: dang
05:27 AM XXCoder: ice that strong there eh
05:27 AM XXCoder: external ice is very rare here
05:28 AM jthornton: morning
05:28 AM miss0r: nah. Its just a shitty unit. The ice is building up inside the unit, and apparently it decided to come loose and hit the fan
05:28 AM malcom2073_: Ouch, inside the unit, not much you can do aobut that
05:28 AM miss0r: In effect leaving my shop to cool down...
05:28 AM miss0r: I've started up two small electric heaters in here
05:28 AM miss0r: Where the hell does one get spare parts for this swedish crap ? :D
05:29 AM gloops: on Z i have an 8 wire motor working from only 4 wires, can this be the problem? i have the other 4 wires simply taped up temporarily
05:30 AM malcom2073_: gloops: There are ways to wire 8 wire (stepper?) motors in series so you're using all the coils instead of only using half of them
05:31 AM gloops: malcom2073 ill have to read up on, its got to be eliminated, pity i dont have a spare motor i can just swap to check it
05:32 AM gloops: , in fact i could swap the y motor, i might try that just to rule it out, ill get another 4 wire motor if it is that
05:36 AM malcom2073_: If they're the same form factor, swapping is a great way to eliminate the driver as an issue
05:37 AM gloops: yes i suppose it would indicate that too, or a fault from driver>motor vfd>spindle
05:38 AM gloops: it works fine until the spindle is rotated
05:39 AM jthornton: http://www.victorleung.info/post/identify-leads-on-a-8-wire-stepper-motor/
05:40 AM gloops: i will do that jthornton, yes
05:41 AM gloops: i suppose, the 4 spare wires could be picking up interference from the spindle cables - they have no power though, so even if they got a signal i dont see how the coils are making steps, but anyway
05:51 AM jdh: more likely the vfd or spindle are causing noise on the drive inputs
05:55 AM gloops: the 12v for the pwm on the breakout board is from the vfd 12v out, this hasnt been a problem in the past though
06:05 AM XXCoder: gloops: induction would feed power backwards to stepper though
06:11 AM gloops: can you explain that in idiots terms XXCoder?
06:11 AM XXCoder: well moving magnetic fields can make wire thats disconnected at one end create current anyway
06:12 AM XXCoder: if strong enough, it could do it to properly connected wires but usually much less of an issue
06:12 AM gloops: so the 4 loose wires could be the problem
06:13 AM XXCoder: yeah
06:13 AM gloops: ive got the 4 pairs/coils, just looking how to connect them, also considering how many permuations for trial and error lol
06:14 AM XXCoder: yeah jt's link is apparently nice way to find out]
06:14 AM gloops: not so many
06:14 AM XXCoder: and labeling as you go though it
06:14 AM XXCoder: you could find pairs easily but website details the second part, finding which pair is a and b etc
06:17 AM XXCoder: well night
06:26 AM gloops: goodnight, thanks, highly irregular practice for me but im just making out all the little labels a1 a2 etc to stick on
08:07 AM dave__ is now known as gloops
08:08 AM gloops: so, 8 wire motor, 2 pairs turn the motor, leave 1 pair in, none of the remaining pairs will turn the motor with the original pair, so ill go back to swapping the motor
08:14 AM Loetmichel: burned a coil?
08:15 AM gloops: Loetmichel i dont know, there is resistance when any pair is twisted, the motor is making a humming noise, i wouldnt know how to check it
08:15 AM Loetmichel: sounds good to me
08:15 AM Loetmichel: maybe you just have to find the right pairs to put them in series/parallel?
08:16 AM gloops: yes you do, thats what i was attmepting
08:16 AM Loetmichel: although: there should be only ONE halfcoil that doesent move the motor when another halfcoil is energized
08:16 AM Loetmichel: and only in one direction
08:17 AM gloops: if you get 2 pairs to turn the motor, remove one, put in another pair, until you find the other pair that works with it, then you have your 2 phases
08:18 AM gloops: none of the last 2 work with the original pair, the driver is tripping
08:18 AM gloops: and motor is making a noise, louder than just powered up noise,
08:19 AM gloops: ill try swapping it anyway, if not that then ill swap the driver
08:20 AM gloops: days are passing with no progress again, thats my only concern
08:24 AM BeachBumPete: Non working robotic arms. 4 cylinoid Motors are good. Can anyone tell me about how much to sell these for? This is just way out of my realm.
08:24 AM BeachBumPete: $400
08:24 AM BeachBumPete: just posted in indiana
08:25 AM BeachBumPete: https://i.imgur.com/duJ4TRp.jpg
09:45 AM IchGucksLive: hi
09:45 AM IchGucksLive: gloops:
09:48 AM IchGucksLive: later
10:32 AM fdarling: does anyone have experience doing RS-485 (Modbus) control of a spindle from LinuxCNC?
10:33 AM fdarling: I wanted to know if it could be as easy as instantiating a MB2HAL component and hooking it up all via HAL, the documentation seems a bit ambiguous and leads me to believe I would have to use ladder logic
10:34 AM JT-Shop: I use the GS2 component to control my spindle over modbus
10:39 AM Tom_L: JT-Shop, do you run a PID loop on your spindle or does the VFD handle that?
10:41 AM JT-Shop: I assume the VFD handles all that
10:45 AM Tom_L: did you get your rock tumbler all done finally?
10:46 AM JT-Shop: yea except I have to rework the channel rings
10:54 AM Tom_L: have you ever tried importing an iges to f360?
10:55 AM JT-Shop: I've only looked at f360 a few times
10:55 AM Tom_L: same
10:57 AM Tom_L: looks like you gotta upload it to the cloud first
11:00 AM Jymmm: evaporation ftw!
11:09 AM fdarling: JT-Shop: that component is specific to your spindle, right?
11:09 AM fdarling: JT-Shop: er, specific to your VFD I meant
11:09 AM JT-Shop: yea
11:10 AM fdarling: I am trying to hook up to a Hitachi P1-00228-LFUF, which is a "SJ P1" (SJ series)
11:10 AM fdarling: I am using mbpoll to interact with it, which uses libmodbus under the hood. I can set the speed, run it forward reverse, monitor the current speed/current draw, etc
11:11 AM fdarling: all from the command line using that utility, so it's just a matter of getting it to work from *inside* LinuxCNC
11:11 AM fdarling: MB2HAL looks like it might do it, but I was hoping to talk with someone who had used it before
11:12 AM JT-Shop: you would have a better chance using the mailing list or forum to find someone that has used MP2HAL
11:22 AM JT-Shop: fdarling: https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/src/hal/user_comps/mb2hal/LogBook.txt
11:22 AM JT-Shop: the authors email is in the header
11:25 AM JT-Shop: looks like a few have contributed to the component
11:50 AM gloops: hmm, well swapped the motor same problem, mind boggling
11:54 AM SpeedEvil: Alions.
11:54 AM fragalot: hi
11:55 AM gloops: hello
01:01 PM gloops: ok, z motor activated when spindle is run, list of possible causes :-
01:01 PM Tom_L: man that thing's sure whippin yer butt
01:02 PM gloops: its killing me
01:02 PM gloops: ive swapped the motor it isnt that
01:03 PM gloops: works fine until spindle run, where pwm increases from 0 to 1-10v, its got to be pwn related
01:04 PM gloops: so pwm signal affect z driver signal, but how i have no idea
01:04 PM gloops: its either getting the wires from the bob to the driver, or the driver itself
01:05 PM pcw_home: VFDs are incredibly nasty noise sources
01:05 PM gloops: pcw_home in this box i have located the vfd probably 150mm from the drivers, with a metal wall between
01:06 PM pcw_home: 220V ones generate ~350V square waves in the motor wiring
01:06 PM gloops: i might remove it from the box and try that
01:07 PM pcw_home: Is the 0..10V circuit completely isolated from the step motor drive signals?
01:07 PM gloops: the 0-10v is generated on the breakout board
01:07 PM gloops: the 0-10v wire returns to the vfd
01:08 PM pcw_home: beware ground bumping (the VFD "ground" may have 20V of Mhz noise relative to other grounds in the system)
01:08 PM gloops: you know, when i ground the spindle cable shielding to the metal box, the problem instantly increases
01:09 PM gloops: i might get the vfd grounds seperate entirely, and remove the vfd from the control box 3 feet away from it
01:09 PM pcw_home: Yes the spindle motor frame "ground" will have intense amounts of HF noise
01:11 PM pcw_home: best to use a common mode choke on the motor UVW wires (fancy VFDs may have this built in , cheap ones will not)
01:11 PM SpeedEvil: The proper way to deal with machine ground is to have a nice subfloor under your machine shop, with a superconductive flat plate covering the entire floor.
01:12 PM gloops: well, the ironic thing is, all this ran with no problem on a piece of plywood, well spaced out with normal unshielded wire lol
01:12 PM SpeedEvil: Grounding is fun!
01:12 PM * Loetmichel had to double shield the motor wire AND put some ferrites on to get the steppers "spinlde noise free" in his small CNC
01:12 PM pcw_home: other thing to do is insulate spindle motor from frame
01:12 PM pcw_home: so only ground is ground wire returned to VFD
01:12 PM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12506&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
01:12 PM gloops: i thought about that too pcw
01:12 PM Loetmichel: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12560
01:12 PM Loetmichel: same wire!
01:13 PM gloops: it straight in the ally holder - the next electrical item is the z motor
01:13 PM gloops: if that spindle is leaking into the frame
01:13 PM gloops: well i got heavy duty shielded
01:15 PM gloops: this is not the odd mised step though, it is serious clatter, as soon as spindle moves, z motor started clattering, moving randomnly, jumping about
01:16 PM Loetmichel: same here.
01:16 PM pcw_home: the ~350V square wave into the motor winding --> ground capacitance results in very nasty ground bumping on the motor frame
01:16 PM pcw_home: best if this is returned only to the VFD, _not_ the machine frame
01:17 PM Loetmichel: i could repeati it 100% of the time: the moment the spindle ramped thru about 20 to 100 hz on the way to full power all the steppers would move inches, not single steps
01:18 PM gloops: yes thats tommorrows job, vfd away from box, seperate ground
01:18 PM pcw_home: if you cant avoid grounding the spindle motor you will likely need common mode chokes like Loetmichel used
01:19 PM pcw_home: there is no ground for HF, the whole frame is just a tapped autotransformer
01:20 PM gloops: theres only one ground terminal on the vfd, simply marked 'chassis ground'
01:20 PM gloops: no 2 actually, one on the signals array too
01:25 PM gloops: i can also test spindle issues by removing it from the frme entirely
01:33 PM * SpeedEvil wonders if you can get ceramic morse taper shims for those with intractable grounding issues.
01:36 PM gloops: i knew it was a mistake using a metal box its a giant noise chamber
02:16 PM fragalot: miss0r: blew a fuse? :P
02:16 PM miss0r: fragalot: Nah, my router had a stroke
02:16 PM fragalot: excuses.
02:17 PM miss0r: ;)
02:18 PM Loetmichel: fragalot: last time i blew an RCD at home i heard my server/router/pbx UPS go "beeep beeepbeeepbeeeoooiiii*click*"...
02:18 PM fragalot: clicking is fine
02:18 PM Loetmichel: so much for upses without regularly replaced lead-acid batterys :-)
02:18 PM fragalot: its when they go *pop* you need to worry
02:19 PM Loetmichel: the "click" was the mains relais falling off because batteries empty
02:19 PM miss0r: even if I DID blow a fuse, i would never admit to it ;)
02:20 PM Loetmichel: he batteries were so bad they had about 5 seconds of haf load ime til shutoff
02:20 PM Loetmichel: ...not quite enough for the sever to shutdown clean :-(
02:22 PM fragalot: miss0r: Bjork - it's oh so quiet
02:22 PM miss0r: björk, if you please
02:22 PM fragalot: you blow a fuse
02:22 PM fragalot: zing boom
02:22 PM fragalot: !
02:23 PM miss0r: nah, I was getting tired of that, so I turned some fuses out'a brass... problem solved (jk)
02:24 PM fragalot: don't forget to encase the fusebox in sand
02:24 PM Loetmichel: miss0r: had a coworker a while back that that did exactly that for the main fuses of his 60kw "carousell lathe"...
02:24 PM miss0r: in this case, I think it'd be better to encase the installation cables in sand, they are the real fuses
02:24 PM Loetmichel: he used steel though
02:24 PM miss0r: tough guy
02:24 PM Loetmichel: result was a badly burned up motor
02:25 PM Loetmichel: you couldnt decide if tht pile of copper, steel and alumnium was once a motor or a cow that was hit by lightning ...
02:26 PM Loetmichel: the fuse bew "regulary" so he was fed up with it and replaced them with steel ones
02:26 PM Loetmichel: ... in stead of calling the companys electrician to search for the cause... (most likely a bad winding in said motor)
02:27 PM Loetmichel: got hi fired though
02:27 PM Loetmichel: him
02:27 PM fragalot: rightfully so
02:27 PM fragalot: imho
02:27 PM XXCoder: wow
02:30 PM miss0r: bleh... This is something I should always check, and not just assume is working. I am having issues getting the PLC comms working on windows 10... FAK
02:30 PM Loetmichel: fragalot: dont know. i think a really good "chewing out" would have done the trick, too
02:30 PM fragalot: miss0r: how does it connect?
02:30 PM miss0r: One last try, and i'll be off to bed, either than or the laptop will end up as a rather expensive paperweight/door stop
02:30 PM miss0r: EnternetIP
02:30 PM Loetmichel: in germany its awfully hard to fire someone. i think he was already on the "we are just waiting for a reason" list
02:30 PM fragalot: Loetmichel: that depends entirely on the person
02:30 PM miss0r: well, I have that part working, now i'm having issues making the rslinx software talk to rslogix on the pc
02:31 PM fragalot: I have nightmares just thinking of AB PLC's so I'm not going to be able to help much I think
02:31 PM XXCoder: Loetmichel: yeah doing things like bypassing fuse he probably did some other stupid stuff like that
02:31 PM miss0r: fragalot: I've always loved them, even with all their flaws :D
02:31 PM Loetmichel: indeed
02:32 PM miss0r: we've all done something like that :D
02:32 PM miss0r: I have a trick for you; if you run out'a 10amp fuses, you can use one strand from a 0.75mm class 5 wire. That is very very close to the 10 amp limit for meltdown
02:33 PM miss0r: so, its a 'safe' alternative to cramming the hole full of aluminum foil, if you are in a pinch
02:33 PM Loetmichel: miss0r: did i mentin that i forgot a notebook in my BMW convertible?
02:33 PM miss0r: Loetmichel: So, did you get a good price on replacing the roof?
02:33 PM Loetmichel: only ot recover it half a year ater under 5cm of rain water in the foot well?
02:34 PM miss0r: damn
02:34 PM Loetmichel: ... and aside from the hdd and soe rust on the connectors it STILL WORKS
02:35 PM fragalot: nice
02:35 PM miss0r: sounds like quality hardware
02:35 PM fragalot: don't try that with a macbook, those things corrode when you just look at them funny
02:35 PM fragalot: from the moisture of your eyebals
02:36 PM miss0r: lol
02:36 PM XXCoder: lol
02:36 PM miss0r: I have a friend that is an apple fanatic. You can only imagine how much fun and joy that brings me messing with him :D
02:36 PM Loetmichel: nope, got a tip from my sister: she said "seam sealant" for tents works a lit better than the usual waterproofing compound. already ordered a big bucket of it ;)
02:36 PM fragalot: turns out the secret to getting stuff to fail after the warranty period is to skimp on conformal coating
02:36 PM fragalot: eg. not put any on
02:37 PM fragalot: miss0r: to be honest
02:37 PM fragalot: I used to hate apple
02:37 PM fragalot: for no reason other than it was apple
02:37 PM Loetmichel: miss0r: hp elitebook
02:37 PM fragalot: then at work they forced an iphone upon me
02:37 PM fragalot: and now..
02:37 PM fragalot: I have a reason to hate them, it's absolute dogshit
02:37 PM XXCoder: lol
02:38 PM Loetmichel: actually that one on my desk at the company there: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=16995&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
02:38 PM Loetmichel: ordered a cheap 64g ssd for it, installed win10, works like a charm... iam surprised myself :)
02:39 PM miss0r: haha
02:39 PM XXCoder: omg I see a printer lol
02:39 PM miss0r: fragalot: I still hate it for no real reason :D
02:41 PM Loetmichel: XXCoder: yes, because its an unmodified (no mosfets) anet A8 its better to have it under constant supervision when printing. so its sits at the company where i am 8 hours a day :-)
02:42 PM Loetmichel: and not at home where i am always on he run or seeping. which isnt good with a device tat has potential to spontaneaously burst into flames
02:42 PM XXCoder: seeping is that medical condition? ;)
02:43 PM Loetmichel: sleeping
02:44 PM * Loetmichel is sorry for typing so bad... just sitting in the bathub... typing with wet fingers on a notebook-"chicklet" keyboard is bad when you are used to an IBM modelM ;)
02:47 PM miss0r: Thats it for tonight. See you aroundf
03:01 PM gloops: slow news day
03:16 PM charlesh: Hey guys, know if it’s possible to connect the 7i73 pendant card to a 7i47s?
03:17 PM pcw_home: its possible
03:18 PM charlesh: Hey PCW, thanks. And thanks for the 4i69 bit files, they worked a treat.
03:18 PM pcw_home: that is you can use one (or more) TX/RX pairs on the 7I47/7I47S for interfacing sserial cards
03:19 PM pcw_home: need a configuration that includes a sserial interface (and somewhat funny cable)
03:19 PM charlesh: That’s what I thought, dos the bit file need to change to enable that?
03:20 PM pcw_home: yes needs to have a sserial channel TX and RX replace the normal stepgen and encoder pins
03:21 PM charlesh: I need just one encoder on that card, and the pen for spindle
03:21 PM charlesh: I would like to be able to use 2 serial channels
03:21 PM charlesh: One for 7i73 and one for an io card in the future
03:22 PM charlesh: PWM, not pen, damn iPad thinks it knows what I want.
03:22 PM charlesh: I have no need for the stepgen whatsoever
03:26 PM charlesh: Would you be willing to build a bit file for that?
03:27 PM charlesh: Still with the 2x7i33 on P1
03:33 PM pcw_home: 2X7I33 or 2X 7I40?
03:33 PM charlesh: 7i40
03:34 PM charlesh: Would that same bit work for 2x7i29?
03:34 PM charlesh: Have an upgrade in the near future
03:35 PM pcw_home: yes 7I29 is just a larger 7I40 basically
03:35 PM charlesh: Thought so.
03:45 PM charlesh: How involved is it to interface the sserial channels?
03:52 PM JT-Shop: hook up a few wires to the base card and plug it in then turn the power on
03:52 PM charlesh: Sounds easy enough.
03:54 PM andypugh: Smart-serial is all self-configuring (that’s the “smart” part)
03:54 PM andypugh: It doesn’t configure the HAL, but the pins all appear as if by magic.
03:55 PM charlesh: I like the sounds of it, so GPIO card should be straight forward to access pins on
03:55 PM andypugh: Yes.
03:57 PM charlesh: I need to learn this bit file voodoo, have a lot of things I would like to try
04:01 PM andypugh: It is a bit voodoo, I have done it a few times but it seems a bit random.
04:02 PM andypugh: But I have only ever used the scripts and files here: https://github.com/LinuxCNC/hostmot2-firmware
04:02 PM andypugh: Which is a bit different to the setup that PCW uses, I think.
04:03 PM charlesh: I’ve looked around there, need to do some experimenting
04:32 PM charlesh: Any good reasonably priced mpg’s out there that anyone would recommend
04:37 PM andypugh: I have had no problems with the super-cheap ones from eBay
04:37 PM charlesh: That’s what I was considering, just hadn’t had anyone vouch for one yet.
04:38 PM charlesh: Non-usb I take it?
04:38 PM andypugh: Ah. What actually are you discussing
04:38 PM andypugh: ?
04:38 PM charlesh: Just a cheap pendant
04:39 PM andypugh: I was talking about https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/272852942704
04:40 PM andypugh: Whereas you seem to be talking about a complete pendant?
04:40 PM andypugh: LinuxCNC has a driver for the USB XHC-HB04, so I would suggest getting one of those
04:41 PM Rab: Anyone know of a software method to rotate gcode? I have a complex hand-coded toolpath, don't want to create it again just to rotate the design 90 degrees. G68/G69 would be the obvious solution, but the controller (non-LinuxCNC) doesn't support those codes. :(
04:41 PM andypugh: But if you are using LinuxCNC then you will get realtime (and more reliable) jogging with a Mesa 7i73 inside a pendant.
04:42 PM andypugh: Sorry, I meant to say “if you are using Mesa hardware”
04:42 PM charlesh: I plan on a 7i73
04:42 PM andypugh: Rab: G10
04:42 PM charlesh: I got your drift
04:43 PM andypugh: Rab: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/gcode/g-code.html#gcode:g10-l2
04:43 PM andypugh: G10 L2 R90 for a 90 degree rotation
04:43 PM andypugh: Ah, but you are not using LinuxCNC?
04:43 PM Rab: andypugh, looks awesome, but controller doesn't support G10 either!
04:44 PM andypugh: In that case… Use a text editor and swap all X for Y and vice-versa :-)
04:45 PM Rab: andypugh, that was my first thought, but I suspect the arcs won't cooperate.
04:46 PM andypugh: In that case: https://github.com/bkubicek/grecode
04:47 PM charlesh: That’s a fancy little pendant, might look into that, seems an easy solution
04:48 PM Rab: andypugh, that's exactly what I was looking for! Thanks!
04:53 PM Deejay: gn8
05:02 PM Rab: andypugh, worked great. Had some weird wrinkles: added two decimal places to just X and I coords, added trailing spaces to all commands, changed Psub/Osub to P S U B and O S U B. Easily corrected. Processed code works great. Thanks again.
05:03 PM andypugh: Glad it worked, I have never actually used it. (But I remembered the name)
05:16 PM heathmanc is now known as charlesh
05:34 PM renz: rab: heh neat
05:35 PM renz: rab: you mean it just added zeros to the end?
05:36 PM renz: and yeah rs274 interpreters shouldnt care about spaces so i dont think the trailing spaces and gapped words would matter
05:39 PM renz: neat it can panelize
07:50 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/rue/Can_Holder/A3/A3_P2.jpg
07:50 PM Tom_L: http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/rue/Can_Holder/A3/A3_2.jpg
07:51 PM Tom_L: this evening's venture.
09:02 PM Crom: met the Gorn from Star Trek TOS. Bobby Clark the actor, find out he's a cousin
09:03 PM Crom: Also met Boomer from Battle Star Galatica 80-81 series
09:05 PM Crom: My wife and I went to WondercCon today to see the Crittical Role panel, and I got to watch Todd McCaffrey at his panel
09:21 PM jdh: your cousin is a clingon?
09:21 PM jdh: or wtf they are?
09:21 PM jdh: nevermind. a gorn
09:41 PM XXCoder: avoid gorn's related species
09:48 PM XXCoder: Tom_L: nice!
09:48 PM XXCoder: looks like door handle?
09:48 PM Tom_L: finger trigger
09:48 PM Tom_L: fairly small
09:48 PM XXCoder: is jaws 4"?
09:49 PM XXCoder: or 3
09:49 PM Tom_L: 4
09:49 PM XXCoder: no wonder my scale was off lol
09:49 PM XXCoder: used to 6" jaws
09:49 PM Tom_L: yeah it takes some getting used to for sure
09:49 PM Tom_L: but it's 1000x better than that damn sherline
09:50 PM XXCoder: whats wrong with your sherline?
09:50 PM Tom_L: it's a sherline
09:50 PM Tom_L: :)
09:50 PM Tom_L: and it's missing a spindle now
09:50 PM XXCoder: work we use kurt everywhere. it kurts sometimes as its heavy. ;)
09:50 PM Tom_L: that's all my bud had
09:51 PM Tom_L: 6 8 & 1 10
09:51 PM XXCoder: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/data/attachments/18/18541-409d59a4c51fe94268458325c6450a21.jpg this type?
09:52 PM Tom_L: sherline yes
09:52 PM Tom_L: only about 2" wide
09:52 PM XXCoder: looks eh
09:52 PM XXCoder: maybe ok for tiny jobs
09:53 PM Tom_L: pretty sure it will sit now
09:57 PM XXCoder: not being used anymore you mean?
09:57 PM Tom_L: yeah
10:00 PM XXCoder: lol ok
10:03 PM XXCoder: I can't wait for shop to exist